The funniest part is Walker already doesn't have a home to return to. He and his crew may be temporally shielded so they continue to exist despite some changes but his understanding of history is already demonstrably wrong. He tells us that the signing of the Accords in his timeline went off without incident. Sorry Walker, when you crawl back up the timeline to your home base it may look similar, but its NOT the timeline you set out from. You're going back to a Galactic Union that's had its Temporal Policy rather vigorously critiqued starting from day one. And for someone who likes to act like he's well enough informed to be calling shots, having him be surprised by the sudden appearance of records detailing Vosk's end points directly to him winging it far more than he lets on. The "bubble of history" is definitely sliding around under his feet.
Of course it does. Certain amount of variability is inevitable as long as time travel exists. But that doesn't matter. Because in the end your only choices are to defend the timeline as it exists or try to change it and hope the butterfly effect swings your way.
Some people apparently think that gambling hundreds of years of galactic civilization against whatever personal goal they have in mind is worth it. Fortunately for galactic civilization, those people aren't in charge.
@nikeix and @patrickngo said this way better than I possibly could. The Federation betrayed its own principles out of fear of a possible future. It's the same problem as the justification frequently given for the Prime Directive: Who's to say that if they swallow their fear and help the Na'kuhl anyway they're going to create Space Hitler? By that logic it's just as likely they're going to create Space Mahatma Gandhi. Don't make your decision based on possibilities, base it on hard data.
Is there a point at which you should lay aside your principles temporarily? Yes: when the only other alternative given the information you have is the utter destruction of everything you hold dear, and even then it's questionable. The Federation in this storyline is not remotely at that point. Now, if we had a practical justification, like *ahem* the damage from Iconian War having made it logistically impossible for the Federation to respond, that would be another story, perhaps a more compelling one. But the Iconian War never happened outside Cryptic's blogs so the Federation does have the capability to respond, they just chose not to because timecops, trying to prevent the future that put them in their position of power from changing, scared them into voting "no".
Post edited by starswordc on
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Where on earth are you getting these entirely backwards ideas that the Feds haven't offered help several times already?
Seriously, your not making any sense, and everything you are saying is directly contradicted in-game and in the blogs.
I really hope by the end of the storyline this gets straightened up with we see the Alliance and the Na'kuhl manage to actually try and coordinate a fix.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Since people have been bringing up the story blogs. I had a thought for a mission in this arc. Though it does pick on the Klingons again.
Praxis. Either the Na'khul go back and perform the sabotage to try and wipe the Klingons out and we go back and try to and stop them, only to bring it down to damaged qo'nos. Or and this is the painful one. They go back to prevent the destruction of Praxis. Thus lengthening the animosity between the Klingons and the Federation and preventing the formation of the Alliance. And we have to go back and cause the detonation on orders from the Federation oriented temporal agents. Just to give another bit of friction between the Klingons and the Federation. Thus either way the Na'kul win.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
They go back to prevent the destruction of Praxis. Thus lengthening the animosity between the Klingons and the Federation and preventing the formation of the Alliance. And we have to go back and cause the detonation on orders from the Federation oriented temporal agents. Just to give another bit of friction between the Klingons and the Federation. Thus either way the Na'kul win.
Only if its a Federation player. And that's why this plot will never happen, because the devs don't want a different storyline mission for factions.
Let's be honest, the only 'aid' the radical Na'khul faction is interested in is the right to change the timeline to restore their homeworld and set themselves up as the dominant race. They don't care about how that affects anyone else. They'd have a point, if their idea of setting the timeline right didn't involve the destruction of the Federation and completely ignore the fact that it was the Tholians who committed the deed. The Tholians are barely part of the future Temporal Accords, let alone the current-day Federation, and nobody is holding them accountable for some reason.
You almost have to ask whether the Na'Khul are acting as the bad guys simply because they're predestined to be. Which they are. Because this is both game and Trek lore.
The point is that the future 'timecops' have direct knowledge of how a temporal war plays out and preventing the worst outcomes of THAT is their highest priority. This is why the Accords exist, in recognition that tampering with time has led to a situation where every faction's history is hopelessly entangled together and the best they can do is manage the only outcomes that don't destroy the entire continuum. The Accord settles on a single shared history that benefits the most factions and limits intervention to stopping incursions that threaten it. Like it or not, that means protecting the Federation because they're the only faction interested in peaceful coexistence that leads to the Galactic Union.
Is it perfect? No. Is it ethical? Hard to say. We don't know the end result of what happens if the Na'Khul win, but they don't appear to be benevolent so trusting them to do anything except what's best for the Na'Khul is like trusting a political party to do anything that doesn't lead to them being in power.
We already know what the Sphere Builders intend, and that's not pretty either.
What's perfectly clear is that the 'can't we all just coexist on our own terms' idealism doesn't account for the fact that it's messy and that there can't help but be winners and losers. It only works if everybody shares the same ideals, and they don't, and they won't. The second best result is the one that accomodates as many people as possible for the greatest possible good (assuming they can agree on what that is). Which is what the Accords represent.
In the end, though, this is a game that tells a made-up story. If the story bothers you, you should certainly speak your mind and let the Devs know. But getting any more worked up about it is pointless.
They go back to prevent the destruction of Praxis. Thus lengthening the animosity between the Klingons and the Federation and preventing the formation of the Alliance. And we have to go back and cause the detonation on orders from the Federation oriented temporal agents. Just to give another bit of friction between the Klingons and the Federation. Thus either way the Na'kul win.
Only if its a Federation player. And that's why this plot will never happen, because the devs don't want a different storyline mission for factions.
Not really. We have Walker or 'Walker' (Na'kul have personal holodisguises) give us an assignment about the Na'kul interfering in an 'important event'. We go back and find ourselves in an underground facility that none of us are familiar with. Presuming it to be a na'kul base we plant charges. And just before departure we run scans and see it is Praxis and we have no time to go defuse our work. On returning to our home time we get to give a WTH to the quest giver. Then report to our superiors who will have their faction level of shock at us being played. Having the dirty work be from an impersonator also gives a reason why we would distance ourselves from Walker eventually as well. How do we know you are a proper temporal agent? Your hull design and uniform?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
They go back to prevent the destruction of Praxis. Thus lengthening the animosity between the Klingons and the Federation and preventing the formation of the Alliance. And we have to go back and cause the detonation on orders from the Federation oriented temporal agents. Just to give another bit of friction between the Klingons and the Federation. Thus either way the Na'kul win.
Only if its a Federation player. And that's why this plot will never happen, because the devs don't want a different storyline mission for factions.
Not really. We have Walker or 'Walker' (Na'kul have personal holodisguises) give us an assignment about the Na'kul interfering in an 'important event'. We go back and find ourselves in an underground facility that none of us are familiar with. Presuming it to be a na'kul base we plant charges. And just before departure we run scans and see it is Praxis and we have no time to go defuse our work. On returning to our home time we get to give a WTH to the quest giver. Then report to our superiors who will have their faction level of shock at us being played. Having the dirty work be from an impersonator also gives a reason why we would distance ourselves from Walker eventually as well. How do we know you are a proper temporal agent? Your hull design and uniform?
1. How would you presume this Na'kuhl impersonator could even deliver the player character to this underground facility without knowing what it is? The only time-travel technology the Na'kuhl have are one-way portals. We can use our own ships to time travel now, but then we'd know where we are.
2. Just because one Na'kuhl managed to briefly impersonate a waitress doesn't make them masters of disguise. We've handled Changelings and Undine.
3. Walker and others of his time period aren't actually in our chain of command. Even if the Na'kuhl could impersonate one, they can't actually give us orders, just ask for our help.
4. I can't see the player characters being stupid enough to destroy something as big as a moon without knowing what it is. Or for that matter, attempt to change/un-change history without knowing what and how.
5. The player characters should be able to tell the difference between a Na'kuhl base and a Klingon one. Certainly a KDF player at least.
You almost have to ask whether the Na'Khul are acting as the bad guys simply because they're predestined to be. Which they are. Because this is both game and Trek lore.
Yes, and people tried to argue this exact point for the reprehensible conclusion of the Iconian War, that the deaths of billions of people hundreds of thousands of years removed from the wrongs committed were somehow not the fault of the Iconians or Sela. Which is effectively the same as saying God said these people should die.
Well, I don't believe in that kind of God; the God I believe in is a merciful, compassionate, all-loving one. Likewise, I point-blank refuse to accept any idea in Star Trek that there is some universal "fate", especially when, per the most recent blog, there is explicitly no "correct" timeline. The predestination paradox justification for this is the deepest sort of TRIBBLE.
The Federation and timecops made a choice to follow this timeline instead of discarding it to create a better future. They are wholly responsible for their actions. Everything else is psychobabble.
As for the utilitarianism argument? Seems to me the greatest possible good would be to aid the Na'kuhl people regardless of the wishes of their dictatorial government. Dictatorships are only as strong as the fear of their subjects; that government won't last forever. And if it inconveniences the timecops' preferred version of history? Who in my present appointed them Lord and Master of all Time? They're interfering in my character's future, so TRIBBLE 'em.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
They go back to prevent the destruction of Praxis. Thus lengthening the animosity between the Klingons and the Federation and preventing the formation of the Alliance. And we have to go back and cause the detonation on orders from the Federation oriented temporal agents. Just to give another bit of friction between the Klingons and the Federation. Thus either way the Na'kul win.
Only if its a Federation player. And that's why this plot will never happen, because the devs don't want a different storyline mission for factions.
Not really. We have Walker or 'Walker' (Na'kul have personal holodisguises) give us an assignment about the Na'kul interfering in an 'important event'. We go back and find ourselves in an underground facility that none of us are familiar with. Presuming it to be a na'kul base we plant charges. And just before departure we run scans and see it is Praxis and we have no time to go defuse our work. On returning to our home time we get to give a WTH to the quest giver. Then report to our superiors who will have their faction level of shock at us being played. Having the dirty work be from an impersonator also gives a reason why we would distance ourselves from Walker eventually as well. How do we know you are a proper temporal agent? Your hull design and uniform?
1. How would you presume this Na'kuhl impersonator could even deliver the player character to this underground facility without knowing what it is? The only time-travel technology the Na'kuhl have are one-way portals. We can use our own ships to time travel now, but then we'd know where we are.
2. Just because one Na'kuhl managed to briefly impersonate a waitress doesn't make them masters of disguise. We've handled Changelings and Undine.
3. Walker and others of his time period aren't actually in our chain of command. Even if the Na'kuhl could impersonate one, they can't actually give us orders, just ask for our help.
4. I can't see the player characters being stupid enough to destroy something as big as a moon without knowing what it is. Or for that matter, attempt to change/un-change history without knowing what and how.
5. The player characters should be able to tell the difference between a Na'kuhl base and a Klingon one. Certainly a KDF player at least.
1. we have seen they had a large portal for launching fleets to the past. But the ones on their ships can send small teams to multiple points. Next the blogs mention how the ship time jump system is stealthed to keep from being noticed. But it takes power from everywhere including the doors. So Easy way to handle it? We battle the na'khul resistance and they go through a portal. This time 'Walker' keeps the gate open. "I'll hold this from this end. Go back and stop them. And get rid of their base if possible." So PC's jump into base and have a way home similar to everything old is new.
2. We recognized Walker in the last mission because he casually walked up to us. We are not exactly running high ID protocols here. And yeah, we got blindsided by shape shifters. Not once but twice. No wait, three times as there was a changling in the cardassian arc. Again not running identity protocols too much here.
3. And yet we seem to always say yes. . .
4. Blow up this communication area with spatial charges. . . What do you mean this was near the Praxis reactor cluster? Again we have been fooled by things as simple as a holodeck and we know that technology.
5. What was the difference between Rura Penthe and the Breen mining facility? Or for that matter the Tholian one in Temporal Ambassador. Pretty much who was guarding it. If we don't see the guards till it is too late. How do we know who is running the place?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Or from a different angle ... Can we make whatever is left of their star go supernova in 2410 so it takes out the Na'Khul before they become a threat?
OR!
Can we build another Krenim timeship (or get one from the box) and aim it Season 9?
OR!!!
Can we provoke the Undine into destroying the Na'Khul because the NaKhul were tricked by he Federation who were tricked by the Krenim were tricked by the Federation who were tricked by the Undine who were tricked by the Iconians who were screwed over because the plot demanded it?
You almost have to ask whether the Na'Khul are acting as the bad guys simply because they're predestined to be. Which they are. Because this is both game and Trek lore.
Yes, and people tried to argue this exact point for the reprehensible conclusion of the Iconian War, that the deaths of billions of people hundreds of thousands of years removed from the wrongs committed were somehow not the fault of the Iconians or Sela. Which is effectively the same as saying God said these people should die.
Well, I don't believe in that kind of God; the God I believe in is a merciful, compassionate, all-loving one. Likewise, I point-blank refuse to accept any idea in Star Trek that there is some universal "fate", especially when, per the most recent blog, there is explicitly no "correct" timeline. The predestination paradox justification for this is the deepest sort of TRIBBLE.
The Federation and timecops made a choice to follow this timeline instead of discarding it to create a better future. They are wholly responsible for their actions. Everything else is psychobabble.
As for the utilitarianism argument? Seems to me the greatest possible good would be to aid the Na'kuhl people regardless of the wishes of their dictatorial government. Dictatorships are only as strong as the fear of their subjects; that government won't last forever. And if it inconveniences the timecops' preferred version of history? Who in my present appointed them Lord and Master of all Time? They're interfering in my character's future, so TRIBBLE 'em.
The point of Midnight was that it was wrong to punish the Iconians of the past for crimes they hadn't committed yet. Which is exactly what Walker is making us do to the Na'kuhl, ironically. Talk about inconsistent standards...
And you're absolutely right that we should save the Na'kuhl star whether the timecops like it or not. That is the entire point I've been making with this thread from the start.
An interesting irony, that, and once again it becomes abundantly clear that Cryptic has not thought their story arc through anywhere near as thoroughly as they should have.
BTW, my point about "Midnight" was that I don't care what the Iconians used to be, I only care that they are properly held to account for their actions in the present, which they abundantly were not. Some people, in-universe and out, were trying to act like a predestination paradox absolves them of all responsibility. It does not and should not, because if you accept that then you're a hair away from letting a murderer off the hook for murder on the justification that he was fated to commit it. Here we're in the opposite scenario, where we're holding the Na'kuhl of the present responsible for their minority's actions in the future, which is utterly immoral.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
At what point is anyone actually holding the Na'kuhl of the present responsible for what Vosk did? Some Na'kuhl serve on Starfleet vessels now... I have three as doffs. So, unless they were conscripted as slave labor.... yeah no.
@markhawkman: The timecops did when they tampered with the political process to prevent the Federation central government from helping, supposedly to preserve the timeline that CREATED the timecops. They are in effect punishing the father for the crimes of the son, as well as ensuring that those crimes will take place, which makes them accessories.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Aannd... people are still getting worked up over it, I guess?
If Cryptic figures out some storyline that gives the Na'Khul their homeworld back, I'm all for it. As it's a game, I won't have a lot of heartbreak if they don't.
The whole mess is still the Tholians' fault. They extinguished the star. They damaged Dano's timeship and sent it spiraling out of control before he could try to help the Na'Khul. We don't know why they wanted the Tox Uthat or why they did what they did, but we know they're responsible. If we could figure out the root cause, then maybe we could fix the whole thing (and likely create a new alternate timeline in the process). Not holding my breath on that.
As God was invoked in this discussion, I will point out that while we may at times 'play god' in this game we are not God. I share the belief that God is merciful, compassionate, and loving. I will also say that God is good, which means that he is a force for good, bending events toward an ultimate good and justly allowing consequences to fall when people act against that. Bad things happen. God makes it right in HIS way and in HIS time. People tend to forget that about God.
In those terms, bearing in mind this is a story and not real life, I believe that there are consequences for the things we do, or do not do, or of the things that happen to us, that are meant to show us the errors of our ways and our beliefs. No amount of good intentions will prevent consequences from falling where they may.
I will be well satisfied if I see the Tholians reaping some of what they've sown. If that seems a little merciless, well, they can stop shooting at my ships.
At what point did the Federation, the Delta Alliance, and the future Galactic Union lose their right to defend their own ongoing existence and doing so be referred to as tyranny?
At the same time they decided other societies DON'T have the same right. Temporal meddling, accord or not, is not just 4th dimensional.... It's 7th Dimensional. By actively taking a stance to protect any one timeline's society you are already becoming a past/present/future villain to any society that falls in that timeline to protect the former society.
With respect I refuse to hand over my right to exist to the Na'khul. If it's between my civilization and theirs in a hostile confict, I will crush their ability to take mine out. I respect their right to exist, not their right to dominate. Their rights do not supercede mind either.
That said, your argument behaves as if we've actually killed off all the Na'khul. That isn't what is happening and isn't what will happen. Their civilization persists.
Wrong question. The right question is 'when did Star Trek start glorifying self-interest over charity and compassion?'
...Because I can find the sorts of ethical calculus justifying the "necessary cruelty" you're describing in just about any sci-fi setting.
I see no glorification, I see a depiction of people with opposing views debating those views and it resulting in politics and sluggish response in a crisis.
Well explain that to the Tholians since they're the ones who did the hit.
Just to be sure, you're talking about the Na'kuhl extremists, right? The ones who said "TRIBBLE you and your attempts to help, we will destroy your alliance and reign supreme"? Because, depending on your opinions on the whole situation, it can apply to both side, just like both sides can be seen with a lighter shade of grey compared to the others.
There is no black and white situation in this arc but guys, stop trying to portray the alliance as heartless monsters and the Na'kuhl extremists as semi-heroic figures.
I'm probably weird in that I don't really demand cool, rational behavior WHEN YOUR STAR JUST DIED. Maybe because we know what insanity has gripped our world when it disappears from the mid-day sky for just a few minutes. Knowing -- understanding -- that the source of all life on your world is gone and it ain't coming back would be just about the definition of composure-breaking. And personally I'm not willing to damn a whole world on the poor manners of one guy. Their behavior that day can and probably should be expected to be just a teeny bit erratic. But the Federation vote on providing aide wasn't done in haste and under a dying sun. It was instead poisoned by Temporal Agents actively casting the Na'kuhl as villians-to-be with a grudge over the aide the Federation opted to withhold later... the direct outcome of the vote in question and once again a self-fulfilling prophecy engineered to by the Time Cops to protect the Time Cops. All hail the best possible world built on the suffering of necessary sacrifices.
Do you know the saying "Let justice be done, though the Heavens fall"? Its because a Heaven built on injustice isn't a Heaven at all. The Star Trek style solution, the "Picard Answer" if you will was to thank the Temporal Agent for their insight and say goodbye, because "we're still going to do the right thing here, now, today and help people in need. Let the chips fall where they may in the future. I hope we meet again but if we don't so be it. We will not be swayed from our principles by your fear-mongering."
Obviously.
Did we actually hear the outcome of that vote?
And I still don't see how a vote to provide aid to the Na'khul overrides the Prime Directive when the Na'khul have refused aid.
Like I said.... Meddling in Time is a 7th dimensional problem.... You have to not only account for the past/present/future of any one timeline but of several others at the same, as well as making sure what you're doing doesn't also alter the timeline.
This is why the Temporal Accords are farcical at best... Tyrannical at worst.
You going back to stop temporal meddling is ALSO a direct act of temporal meddling. The incident you may think you're going back to stop may be the whole reason the future changes.(ENT: Shockwave 1&2, VOY: Future's End)
So you believe one should allow another species, to interfere in your own past and development?
And how do you know that the Temporal Integrity Commission HASN'T taken into account all of those factors? We're not privy to all the consequences, calculations, or alternate scenarios.
The RP blog between Troi and Ferris is them debating the sides for formally aiding the Na'Khul.... With information (your captain had of the future) that wasn't supposed to be shared to the current timeline and yet was. This is present day.... mostly.
This is incorrect. The reason we were sent forward to the Temporal Accords signing was explicitly a fact finding mission with a person trusted by the TIC, namely our captain, who was to make a report back to their leaders. A Starfleet officer would thus report back to Starfleet Command, The Federation Council (and not even the whole council), and the President. The point in sending us was that we wouldn't share superfluous unimportant information about the future. The Krenim and Na'khul attacking the Conference is certainly pertinent information since it was a temporal incursion. Furthermore, it was relevant since the Krenim attack originated in out timeframe.
“Sir, we need to be more vigilant when dealing with a potential security threat, especially considering what we’ve learned took place in the 29th century.”
Okeg frowned slightly at that. “He’s making the most of his recent appointment to the Starfleet Intelligence Committee,” he thought. “One more weapon in his arsenal.”
Ferris has position and authority.
The Blog with Shon mentions that the Federation formally denied aid at large while Troi won a victory of allowing Betazed to take in refugees. It remains that /rumors/ of them being in league with other previous enemies and or independent societies is a propaganda to promote Na'Khul hate which fuels the denial of aid...
There is so much inconsistency that sure... They can say the answers are coming..... but by the time it gets here nobody's gonna care that it was V'ger pulling the strings the whole time....
Well Betazed taking in refugees isn't that surprising seeing as how the Federation doesn't exercise absolute control over member worlds. As a strategic matter allowing refugees on Betazed is an interesting choice since it's a planet of telepaths.
Much of the inconsistency could also simply be different people disagreeing, having different perspectives, and even rapidly shifting timelines.
Alright, there is one Temporal Assignment that can end this once and for all both in Star Trek and in this Thread... Prevent Lieutenant Joe Tormolen from taking off his bloody glove as seen in 'The Naked Time'. Boom. No cold restart of the engines, no travel back in time.
SPOCK: This does open some intriguing prospects, Captain. Since the formula worked, we can go back in time, to any planet, any era.
KIRK: We may risk it someday, Mister Spock.
Someday wasn't too far removed, 'Tomorrow is Yesterday'. Now here, after being thrown back in time under somewhat similar circumstances as at Psi 2000, they learn how to move forward in time.
'The City on the Edge of Forever' brings in a Portal to move back into your own time, but not really relevant here other than to show how this time travel can really scr*w up your Timeline. From what we can tell only your races timeline is in play. It probably does form the seed in the Federation for the Temporal Watchdog types.
'Assignment: Earth' makes it clear that the Lightspeed Breakaway Factor is now fully developed and is being used to move around in time for historical observation purposes. It also brings up a another dilemma. We now have some race that recruits people from the current Timeline/Target Planet that are given assignments to either alter the Timeline or I guess prevent alterations to what must be. They can also hide their own Planet. Do we know of anyone that can do that?
Did that one seemingly insignificant act on the part of Tormolen eventually unleash the research into Temporal Mechanics that brought about all this? The Temporal Cold War, Temporal Accords, Temporal Authorities, you name it all owe it to these humble beginnings?
Actually the temporal cat was released from the bag with the Annorax Temporal Weapons Ship, being used in public to end the Iconian War. There's no way to stop time travel from getting out since Annorax developed the technology in the 22nd century in the Delta Quadrant.
I can't continue this without comparing modern day parallels.... Something Star Trek has always done whether realized or not.
Actually almost always intentionally.
This whole thing mirrors, in many aspects, the current refugee crisis in Europe.
What the Federation Council has done here would be the equivalent of the EU refusing to aid and house refugees and although there may be countries in the EU that do take them in, on the whole the act of saying "no" by the main governance body is only something the common person sees as an end-all to the conversation of whether or not to help.
What's happened because of Federation extremists is no different... Just intergalactically. It can be pointed to by both extremists and moderates of the Na'khul as why "they hate us."
meanwhile the Federation extremists linger on the "but these people are gonna attack us in the future" as a reason to perpetuate a, quite literal, timeless cycle of back and forth aggression.
I think it's absolutely on purpose. And then you have countries in Europe building fences and acting forcefully to keep refugees out. And a loudmouth here talking about a different group of people and a different way to exclude them.
The commentary of course comes at the end of the episode.
All because of the possibility that these people can possibly hurt us.
Doesn't it remind you of Admiral Cartwright? "I must protest, letting the Klingons have safe haven within the Federation is suicide, Klingons would become the alien trash of the Galaxy...."
Once again, it hasn't been refused by the whole Federation, that'd be like saying the good old USA were in favor of the PRISM program. It has been blocked by a xenophobic bureaucrat and his group fo friends at the council, a bureaucrat whose ancestor ordered Kirk around on his bridge and voted against the Khitomer Accords. Trill, Lukari, Denobula, Bajor started to help and Okeg, Troi and the Enterprise crew were more than eager to help.
But once again, like with the Na'kuhl, radical/conservative elements are ruining everything for the whole population, which in turn put the blame on everyone else.
Okeg: “I believe it is important to consider that the attacks mentioned by the Councilman took place centuries in the future. Judging the Na’kuhl – or the Krenim – today on the tragic events of a potential tomorrow seems… ill-advised.”
Not even a strange concept in this day and age.
This ENTIRE scenario of "Temporal Justification" just screams out as a Minority Report form of justice to me.
So, because some "yahoo's" from the future, present themselves to our characters, whom exists in their past, then tells us that unless we do what they say, certain events WILL happen; AND likewise imply to us that NOT doing certain things WILL cause the demise of THE FUTURE.
Now, because of VERY poorly thought out & implemented story writing, we (our characters in the "present" time frame) are pretty much painted into a corner in our own actions that we take/are to take/will take/should take; because WE have not been given any (dialog) options by the story writers to tell our Visitors from THE Future ... No.
No, I/we will NOT do as you ask; let the chips fall where they may & move on from there.
It's fascinating, you remember Captain Braxton on Voyager? Whose first officer arrested him for crimes he would commit. And it was difficult to argue it since from Janeway's perspective, he had just finished committing those crimes, and they then arrested his future self as well.
In Minority Report it was a future prediction a possibility that hadn't occurred and clearly a mutable prediction since people could actually be arrested before the crime took place. Very weird.
Individuals, representing the Federation, offering aid, yes. And a great many Na'khul accepted. But the federation, as a whole, only voted on aid as a means of integrating the refugees into Federation worlds something the council, lead by Ferris, refused to do.
Although Ferrying passengers is aid it still remains that the Federation council pretty much up and said "no" to letting the Na'khul live in Federation society at large, ALSO a form of aid. The whole argument, for and against BOTH federation and Na'khul is based on semantics and past/present/future prejudices....
So you're saying that no aid counts at all unless the full might of the Federation government is immediately brought to bear to completely solve the problem of the people whose government has refused the aid of the Federation government that it means no aid has been offered at all?
If I were on the Federation Council I would also vote no, because the Na'khul officially refused our aid. Prime Directive. If they asked for help or signaled that they were open to assistance, aid, or negotiation for assistance or aid then my vote would immediately switch to yes. But I'm not going to violate General Order 01 if it's going to go to waste. I'm sure there are Krenim, Vaadwuar, Romulan, and Cardassians out there that would be happy to have those resources.
Ferris on the other hand can go kick rocks, he's a paranoid xenophobic idiot.
The funniest part is Walker already doesn't have a home to return to. He and his crew may be temporally shielded so they continue to exist despite some changes but his understanding of history is already demonstrably wrong. He tells us that the signing of the Accords in his timeline went off without incident. Sorry Walker, when you crawl back up the timeline to your home base it may look similar, but its NOT the timeline you set out from. You're going back to a Galactic Union that's had its Temporal Policy rather vigorously critiqued starting from day one. And for someone who likes to act like he's well enough informed to be calling shots, having him be surprised by the sudden appearance of records detailing Vosk's end points directly to him winging it far more than he lets on. The "bubble of history" is definitely sliding around under his feet.
I'm sure Walker is well aware of that. The fascinating thing is that any time he goes home and takes off his uniform and personal shield generator he's basically reintegrated into whatever time frame it is and changed as such. Depending on how much leave we take we may not even get the same Walker back next time. Occupational Hazard. Good way to explain why the Braxton in Future's End and Relativity have two different actors and it's the same dude.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
@nikeix and @patrickngo said this way better than I possibly could. The Federation betrayed its own principles out of fear of a possible future. It's the same problem as the justification frequently given for the Prime Directive: Who's to say that if they swallow their fear and help the Na'kuhl anyway they're going to create Space Hitler? By that logic it's just as likely they're going to create Space Mahatma Gandhi. Don't make your decision based on possibilities, base it on hard data.
Is there a point at which you should lay aside your principles temporarily? Yes: when the only other alternative given the information you have is the utter destruction of everything you hold dear, and even then it's questionable. The Federation in this storyline is not remotely at that point. Now, if we had a practical justification, like *ahem* the damage from Iconian War having made it logistically impossible for the Federation to respond, that would be another story, perhaps a more compelling one. But the Iconian War never happened outside Cryptic's blogs so the Federation does have the capability to respond, they just chose not to because timecops, trying to prevent the future that put them in their position of power from changing, scared them into voting "no".
No. SOME PEOPLE are throwing away the principles of the Federation out of fear. The Federation is a democracy, which means on occasion the idiots will have their say and hold up business. "A more evolved sensibility" does not mean perfection and it doesn't mean there won't be backslides. It means that if you fail you pick yourself up and do better next time.
And what if the time cops are trying to protect their timeline because the alternative is a temporal apocalypse? Time and space aren't play things. Recall parallels where Worf almost broke a sector by letting all the alternate Enterprises slip into the normal universe?
Where on earth are you getting these entirely backwards ideas that the Feds haven't offered help several times already?
Seriously, your not making any sense, and everything you are saying is directly contradicted in-game and in the blogs.
I really hope by the end of the storyline this gets straightened up with we see the Alliance and the Na'kuhl manage to actually try and coordinate a fix.
I would hope, all of us share this sentiment, I certainly do.
Since people have been bringing up the story blogs. I had a thought for a mission in this arc. Though it does pick on the Klingons again.
Praxis. Either the Na'khul go back and perform the sabotage to try and wipe the Klingons out and we go back and try to and stop them, only to bring it down to damaged qo'nos. Or and this is the painful one. They go back to prevent the destruction of Praxis. Thus lengthening the animosity between the Klingons and the Federation and preventing the formation of the Alliance. And we have to go back and cause the detonation on orders from the Federation oriented temporal agents. Just to give another bit of friction between the Klingons and the Federation. Thus either way the Na'kul win.
A nice idea, but I'm not fond of it. It weakens the fact that the Praxis storyline was primarily environmental. The Klingons took no safety precautions and thus their mine exploded tearing apart their ozone. That's a good solid message for that time. I don't like the idea of weakening that just for the sake of this story.
It would be great for a Klingon Temporal Agent, but not a Starfleet or Romulan one. Also of note, if you destroy the Khitomer Accords, then you automatically lose the Dominion War. Considering their location the Na'khul get conquered by the Dominion.
Let's be honest, the only 'aid' the radical Na'khul faction is interested in is the right to change the timeline to restore their homeworld and set themselves up as the dominant race. They don't care about how that affects anyone else. They'd have a point, if their idea of setting the timeline right didn't involve the destruction of the Federation and completely ignore the fact that it was the Tholians who committed the deed. The Tholians are barely part of the future Temporal Accords, let alone the current-day Federation, and nobody is holding them accountable for some reason.
You almost have to ask whether the Na'Khul are acting as the bad guys simply because they're predestined to be. Which they are. Because this is both game and Trek lore.
The point is that the future 'timecops' have direct knowledge of how a temporal war plays out and preventing the worst outcomes of THAT is their highest priority. This is why the Accords exist, in recognition that tampering with time has led to a situation where every faction's history is hopelessly entangled together and the best they can do is manage the only outcomes that don't destroy the entire continuum. The Accord settles on a single shared history that benefits the most factions and limits intervention to stopping incursions that threaten it. Like it or not, that means protecting the Federation because they're the only faction interested in peaceful coexistence that leads to the Galactic Union.
Is it perfect? No. Is it ethical? Hard to say. We don't know the end result of what happens if the Na'Khul win, but they don't appear to be benevolent so trusting them to do anything except what's best for the Na'Khul is like trusting a political party to do anything that doesn't lead to them being in power.
We already know what the Sphere Builders intend, and that's not pretty either.
What's perfectly clear is that the 'can't we all just coexist on our own terms' idealism doesn't account for the fact that it's messy and that there can't help but be winners and losers. It only works if everybody shares the same ideals, and they don't, and they won't. The second best result is the one that accomodates as many people as possible for the greatest possible good (assuming they can agree on what that is). Which is what the Accords represent.
In the end, though, this is a game that tells a made-up story. If the story bothers you, you should certainly speak your mind and let the Devs know. But getting any more worked up about it is pointless.
As for the utilitarianism argument? Seems to me the greatest possible good would be to aid the Na'kuhl people regardless of the wishes of their dictatorial government. Dictatorships are only as strong as the fear of their subjects; that government won't last forever. And if it inconveniences the timecops' preferred version of history? Who in my present appointed them Lord and Master of all Time? They're interfering in my character's future, so TRIBBLE 'em.
No NOT TRIBBLE em. Because some of those people are my grandkids, there and I'm not saying TRIBBLE you to my own descendants. So if I can protect them by acting intelligently in the here and now then I will. Am I going to do everything the Temporal Agents say? Of course not. But I'm not going to tell them to go eat TRIBBLE either. You assume tyranny, I assume survival. If I get evidence to the contrary, I'll stun and arrest Walker myself and put his ship in the impound.
The point of Midnight was that it was wrong to punish the Iconians of the past for crimes they hadn't committed yet. Which is exactly what Walker is making us do to the Na'kuhl, ironically. Talk about inconsistent standards...
Yes, if only we could get the Na'khul to let us actually approach their star again.
And you're absolutely right that we should save the Na'kuhl star whether the timecops like it or not. That is the entire point I've been making with this thread from the start.
What if in doing so we wipe ourselves and everyone else out? Ethics are fine and I will follow them, but I'm not cool with acting irresponsibly and getting my own civilization annihilated. And I'm not even saying that it might be the Na'khul at fault. There are probably far worse things out there.
BTW, my point about "Midnight" was that I don't care what the Iconians used to be, I only care that they are properly held to account for their actions in the present, which they abundantly were not. Some people, in-universe and out, were trying to act like a predestination paradox absolves them of all responsibility. It does not and should not, because if you accept that then you're a hair away from letting a murderer off the hook for murder on the justification that he was fated to commit it. Here we're in the opposite scenario, where we're holding the Na'kuhl of the present responsible for their minority's actions in the future, which is utterly immoral.
There's a small problem with that though. Unless an Iconian submits herself for punishment we literally have NO enforcement power. As a strategic issue we lost the war. As a practical issue we survived regained all our lost territory, lost no political sovereignty, and the aggressor has mostly withdrawn, which is a victory. The only way we could punish the Iconians would've been to execute them in the past before they had committed any crimes.
How so?
For all we know not going back in time to reignite the star may prevent the Na'khul from doing something to get their species wiped out by something worse. We don't have the information with which to base that kind of decision. I'm not punishing anyone. The Na'khul have told me to TRIBBLE off, so that's what I'm doing.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
We don't know why they wanted the Tox Uthat or why they did what they did, but we know they're responsible.
Kal Dano says the Tholians likely stole the Tox and attacked the Na'Khul for actions they will take in the future, and we see in the newest mission that Tholia, the Tholian homeworld, is on Vosk's list of targets.
I suspect that Vosk will send his agents back in time to attack Tholia in some way as revenge for the Tholians extinguishing their star, and, in response, the Tholians steal the Tox Uthat and attack the Na'Khul for revenge, creating an endless cycle of revenge, where the act of getting revenge causes the initial attack on both sides.
The saddest part of that is the fact that we just learned this lesson. I would really hate it if it was the same twist again.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
BTW, my point about "Midnight" was that I don't care what the Iconians used to be, I only care that they are properly held to account for their actions in the present, which they abundantly were not. Some people, in-universe and out, were trying to act like a predestination paradox absolves them of all responsibility. It does not and should not, because if you accept that then you're a hair away from letting a murderer off the hook for murder on the justification that he was fated to commit it. Here we're in the opposite scenario, where we're holding the Na'kuhl of the present responsible for their minority's actions in the future, which is utterly immoral.
The Alliance never had the capability of holding the Iconians responsible in the present. The only time they had any power over the Iconians is when they went to a vulnerable point in their distant past, that was the entire point of going there in the first place. Once there, they chose to take the high road and not punish the innocent Iconians of the past for the crimes they had yet to commit. In the present, the ONLY thing the Alliance could do was accept the offered ceasefire because it beat the hell out of surrender and obliteration. We know there has been no justice for those the Iconians killed in the war, nobody's arguing that those scales have been balanced. Unfortunately, however, the losing party isn't in a position to demand reparations. It sucks, but them's the breaks.
There's a small problem with that though. Unless an Iconian submits herself for punishment we literally have NO enforcement power. As a strategic issue we lost the war. As a practical issue we survived regained all our lost territory, lost no political sovereignty, and the aggressor has mostly withdrawn, which is a victory. The only way we could punish the Iconians would've been to execute them in the past before they had committed any crimes.
How so?
For all we know not going back in time to reignite the star may prevent the Na'khul from doing something to get their species wiped out by something worse. We don't have the information with which to base that kind of decision. I'm not punishing anyone. The Na'khul have told me to TRIBBLE off, so that's what I'm doing.
You want to know how we hold the Iconians to account? Really? I'll tell you how: we blackmail them with the superweapons the Star Trek Online universe is frakking littered with. I rather doubt their precious Herald Sphere would react well to a red matter bomb. Or Omega particle detonations to make them unable to move forces. Or shoot a trilithium warhead into the sun in "Broken Circle" instead of chasing M'tara around. Or the option in "Midnight" that I came up with in two seconds: stick an antimatter charge on a deadman switch to the World Heart. Or frakking "Time in a Bottle" when the Iconians stop to have a powwow in hostile territory and make themselves a perfect target for a grenade or orbital strike.
Regardless of the method, that's the leverage: the Iconians surrender unconditionally to the alliance, or they're dead and their civilization can never be rebuilt, and there's justice for the tens of billions of innocent people they murdered, maimed, and made homeless.
But I guess it takes somebody with more intelligence than anybody in this game has displayed since "Delta Flight" to actually come up with that solution. As a strategic issue, we had the solution in our damn hands and we let the Iconians walk. The losing party was in a position to demand reparations at multiple times and they blew it every time.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You want to know how we hold the Iconians to account? Really? I'll tell you how: we blackmail them with the superweapons the Star Trek Online universe is frakking littered with. I rather doubt their precious Herald Sphere would react well to a red matter bomb. Or Omega particle detonations to make them unable to move forces. Or shoot a trilithium warhead into the sun in "Broken Circle" instead of chasing M'tara around. Or the option in "Midnight" that I came up with in two seconds: stick an antimatter charge on a deadman switch to the World Heart. Or frakking "Time in a Bottle" when the Iconians stop to have a powwow in hostile territory and make themselves a perfect target for a grenade or orbital strike.
Its so nice to see people completely miss the entire premise of Star Trek so much.
I also find it rather ironic you complain about the Temporal Accords Police preventing the Na'Khul from being helped, then go on to say this, even worse atrocities, all in the need of petty revenge, making yourself literally no better then Sela or the Iconians themselves.
Committing mass murder does make other mass murderers held accountable for their actions.
These are not defenseless civilians we're talking about, and killing armed enemies in war is not murder. If the Iconians call your bluff in that scenario, the morally forthright opportunity to surrender has been given and rejected. Pulling the trigger then is not genocide, it's a military action of self-defense against generals and tyrants who are guilty of atrocities far beyond anything in human history from Da'esh on down, people who butchered eighteen billion Romulans who were two hundred thousand years removed from the crime committed by one single solitary individual. Sela's error was trying to avenge the wrongs of the present upon people of the past who had not yet committed those wrongs, but the Iconians of the present are the worst mass murderers in galactic history, and the Heralds and Elachi are their loyal soldiers who knew the risks and knowingly carried out their orders, and the plot as written allows them all to say "oops, my bad" and walk away without even stopping one of their number from continuing the war on her own.
I don't care what the Iconians were in the past any more than I care what the Na'kuhl might become in a future that, from my character's perspective, has yet to come to pass, meaning there is still time to change course. The present is the only timeframe that I care about unless there is a preponderance of hard data that indicates a possible future is probable to occur.* Just as Sela tried to punish the Iconians of the past for the crimes of the present, the timecops here are punishing the Na'kuhl of the present, the timecops' past, for the crimes of the future, their present. That is unjust and reprehensible. In the present the Na'kuhl are a people in need, nothing more, and aiding them regardless of the opinion of the timecops is the only moral choice.
* Real life example: The preponderance of hard data says global warming is real, man-made, and serious, ergo we should act to change course to prevent an eventual cataclysm. The preponderance of hard data also says contact with aliens is supremely unlikely, so while it's nice to theorize about it's not something we really need to legislate stuff for.
Post edited by starswordc on
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
Some people apparently think that gambling hundreds of years of galactic civilization against whatever personal goal they have in mind is worth it. Fortunately for galactic civilization, those people aren't in charge.
Is there a point at which you should lay aside your principles temporarily? Yes: when the only other alternative given the information you have is the utter destruction of everything you hold dear, and even then it's questionable. The Federation in this storyline is not remotely at that point. Now, if we had a practical justification, like *ahem* the damage from Iconian War having made it logistically impossible for the Federation to respond, that would be another story, perhaps a more compelling one. But the Iconian War never happened outside Cryptic's blogs so the Federation does have the capability to respond, they just chose not to because timecops, trying to prevent the future that put them in their position of power from changing, scared them into voting "no".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I really hope by the end of the storyline this gets straightened up with we see the Alliance and the Na'kuhl manage to actually try and coordinate a fix.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Praxis. Either the Na'khul go back and perform the sabotage to try and wipe the Klingons out and we go back and try to and stop them, only to bring it down to damaged qo'nos. Or and this is the painful one. They go back to prevent the destruction of Praxis. Thus lengthening the animosity between the Klingons and the Federation and preventing the formation of the Alliance. And we have to go back and cause the detonation on orders from the Federation oriented temporal agents. Just to give another bit of friction between the Klingons and the Federation. Thus either way the Na'kul win.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
You almost have to ask whether the Na'Khul are acting as the bad guys simply because they're predestined to be. Which they are. Because this is both game and Trek lore.
The point is that the future 'timecops' have direct knowledge of how a temporal war plays out and preventing the worst outcomes of THAT is their highest priority. This is why the Accords exist, in recognition that tampering with time has led to a situation where every faction's history is hopelessly entangled together and the best they can do is manage the only outcomes that don't destroy the entire continuum. The Accord settles on a single shared history that benefits the most factions and limits intervention to stopping incursions that threaten it. Like it or not, that means protecting the Federation because they're the only faction interested in peaceful coexistence that leads to the Galactic Union.
Is it perfect? No. Is it ethical? Hard to say. We don't know the end result of what happens if the Na'Khul win, but they don't appear to be benevolent so trusting them to do anything except what's best for the Na'Khul is like trusting a political party to do anything that doesn't lead to them being in power.
We already know what the Sphere Builders intend, and that's not pretty either.
What's perfectly clear is that the 'can't we all just coexist on our own terms' idealism doesn't account for the fact that it's messy and that there can't help but be winners and losers. It only works if everybody shares the same ideals, and they don't, and they won't. The second best result is the one that accomodates as many people as possible for the greatest possible good (assuming they can agree on what that is). Which is what the Accords represent.
In the end, though, this is a game that tells a made-up story. If the story bothers you, you should certainly speak your mind and let the Devs know. But getting any more worked up about it is pointless.
Not really. We have Walker or 'Walker' (Na'kul have personal holodisguises) give us an assignment about the Na'kul interfering in an 'important event'. We go back and find ourselves in an underground facility that none of us are familiar with. Presuming it to be a na'kul base we plant charges. And just before departure we run scans and see it is Praxis and we have no time to go defuse our work. On returning to our home time we get to give a WTH to the quest giver. Then report to our superiors who will have their faction level of shock at us being played. Having the dirty work be from an impersonator also gives a reason why we would distance ourselves from Walker eventually as well. How do we know you are a proper temporal agent? Your hull design and uniform?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
2. Just because one Na'kuhl managed to briefly impersonate a waitress doesn't make them masters of disguise. We've handled Changelings and Undine.
3. Walker and others of his time period aren't actually in our chain of command. Even if the Na'kuhl could impersonate one, they can't actually give us orders, just ask for our help.
4. I can't see the player characters being stupid enough to destroy something as big as a moon without knowing what it is. Or for that matter, attempt to change/un-change history without knowing what and how.
5. The player characters should be able to tell the difference between a Na'kuhl base and a Klingon one. Certainly a KDF player at least.
Yes, and people tried to argue this exact point for the reprehensible conclusion of the Iconian War, that the deaths of billions of people hundreds of thousands of years removed from the wrongs committed were somehow not the fault of the Iconians or Sela. Which is effectively the same as saying God said these people should die.
Well, I don't believe in that kind of God; the God I believe in is a merciful, compassionate, all-loving one. Likewise, I point-blank refuse to accept any idea in Star Trek that there is some universal "fate", especially when, per the most recent blog, there is explicitly no "correct" timeline. The predestination paradox justification for this is the deepest sort of TRIBBLE.
The Federation and timecops made a choice to follow this timeline instead of discarding it to create a better future. They are wholly responsible for their actions. Everything else is psychobabble.
As for the utilitarianism argument? Seems to me the greatest possible good would be to aid the Na'kuhl people regardless of the wishes of their dictatorial government. Dictatorships are only as strong as the fear of their subjects; that government won't last forever. And if it inconveniences the timecops' preferred version of history? Who in my present appointed them Lord and Master of all Time? They're interfering in my character's future, so TRIBBLE 'em.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
1. we have seen they had a large portal for launching fleets to the past. But the ones on their ships can send small teams to multiple points. Next the blogs mention how the ship time jump system is stealthed to keep from being noticed. But it takes power from everywhere including the doors. So Easy way to handle it? We battle the na'khul resistance and they go through a portal. This time 'Walker' keeps the gate open. "I'll hold this from this end. Go back and stop them. And get rid of their base if possible." So PC's jump into base and have a way home similar to everything old is new.
2. We recognized Walker in the last mission because he casually walked up to us. We are not exactly running high ID protocols here. And yeah, we got blindsided by shape shifters. Not once but twice. No wait, three times as there was a changling in the cardassian arc. Again not running identity protocols too much here.
3. And yet we seem to always say yes. . .
4. Blow up this communication area with spatial charges. . . What do you mean this was near the Praxis reactor cluster? Again we have been fooled by things as simple as a holodeck and we know that technology.
5. What was the difference between Rura Penthe and the Breen mining facility? Or for that matter the Tholian one in Temporal Ambassador. Pretty much who was guarding it. If we don't see the guards till it is too late. How do we know who is running the place?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
OR!
Can we build another Krenim timeship (or get one from the box) and aim it Season 9?
OR!!!
Can we provoke the Undine into destroying the Na'Khul because the NaKhul were tricked by he Federation who were tricked by the Krenim were tricked by the Federation who were tricked by the Undine who were tricked by the Iconians who were screwed over because the plot demanded it?
An interesting irony, that, and once again it becomes abundantly clear that Cryptic has not thought their story arc through anywhere near as thoroughly as they should have.
BTW, my point about "Midnight" was that I don't care what the Iconians used to be, I only care that they are properly held to account for their actions in the present, which they abundantly were not. Some people, in-universe and out, were trying to act like a predestination paradox absolves them of all responsibility. It does not and should not, because if you accept that then you're a hair away from letting a murderer off the hook for murder on the justification that he was fated to commit it. Here we're in the opposite scenario, where we're holding the Na'kuhl of the present responsible for their minority's actions in the future, which is utterly immoral.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
If Cryptic figures out some storyline that gives the Na'Khul their homeworld back, I'm all for it. As it's a game, I won't have a lot of heartbreak if they don't.
The whole mess is still the Tholians' fault. They extinguished the star. They damaged Dano's timeship and sent it spiraling out of control before he could try to help the Na'Khul. We don't know why they wanted the Tox Uthat or why they did what they did, but we know they're responsible. If we could figure out the root cause, then maybe we could fix the whole thing (and likely create a new alternate timeline in the process). Not holding my breath on that.
As God was invoked in this discussion, I will point out that while we may at times 'play god' in this game we are not God. I share the belief that God is merciful, compassionate, and loving. I will also say that God is good, which means that he is a force for good, bending events toward an ultimate good and justly allowing consequences to fall when people act against that. Bad things happen. God makes it right in HIS way and in HIS time. People tend to forget that about God.
In those terms, bearing in mind this is a story and not real life, I believe that there are consequences for the things we do, or do not do, or of the things that happen to us, that are meant to show us the errors of our ways and our beliefs. No amount of good intentions will prevent consequences from falling where they may.
I will be well satisfied if I see the Tholians reaping some of what they've sown. If that seems a little merciless, well, they can stop shooting at my ships.
With respect I refuse to hand over my right to exist to the Na'khul. If it's between my civilization and theirs in a hostile confict, I will crush their ability to take mine out. I respect their right to exist, not their right to dominate. Their rights do not supercede mind either.
That said, your argument behaves as if we've actually killed off all the Na'khul. That isn't what is happening and isn't what will happen. Their civilization persists.
I see no glorification, I see a depiction of people with opposing views debating those views and it resulting in politics and sluggish response in a crisis.
Well explain that to the Tholians since they're the ones who did the hit.
Thank you.
Obviously.
Did we actually hear the outcome of that vote?
And I still don't see how a vote to provide aid to the Na'khul overrides the Prime Directive when the Na'khul have refused aid.
So you believe one should allow another species, to interfere in your own past and development?
And how do you know that the Temporal Integrity Commission HASN'T taken into account all of those factors? We're not privy to all the consequences, calculations, or alternate scenarios.
This is incorrect. The reason we were sent forward to the Temporal Accords signing was explicitly a fact finding mission with a person trusted by the TIC, namely our captain, who was to make a report back to their leaders. A Starfleet officer would thus report back to Starfleet Command, The Federation Council (and not even the whole council), and the President. The point in sending us was that we wouldn't share superfluous unimportant information about the future. The Krenim and Na'khul attacking the Conference is certainly pertinent information since it was a temporal incursion. Furthermore, it was relevant since the Krenim attack originated in out timeframe.
“Sir, we need to be more vigilant when dealing with a potential security threat, especially considering what we’ve learned took place in the 29th century.”
Okeg frowned slightly at that. “He’s making the most of his recent appointment to the Starfleet Intelligence Committee,” he thought. “One more weapon in his arsenal.”
Ferris has position and authority.
Well Betazed taking in refugees isn't that surprising seeing as how the Federation doesn't exercise absolute control over member worlds. As a strategic matter allowing refugees on Betazed is an interesting choice since it's a planet of telepaths.
Much of the inconsistency could also simply be different people disagreeing, having different perspectives, and even rapidly shifting timelines.
Actually the temporal cat was released from the bag with the Annorax Temporal Weapons Ship, being used in public to end the Iconian War. There's no way to stop time travel from getting out since Annorax developed the technology in the 22nd century in the Delta Quadrant.
Actually almost always intentionally.
I think it's absolutely on purpose. And then you have countries in Europe building fences and acting forcefully to keep refugees out. And a loudmouth here talking about a different group of people and a different way to exclude them.
The commentary of course comes at the end of the episode.
All because of the possibility that these people can possibly hurt us.
Doesn't it remind you of Admiral Cartwright? "I must protest, letting the Klingons have safe haven within the Federation is suicide, Klingons would become the alien trash of the Galaxy...."
Not even a strange concept in this day and age.
It's fascinating, you remember Captain Braxton on Voyager? Whose first officer arrested him for crimes he would commit. And it was difficult to argue it since from Janeway's perspective, he had just finished committing those crimes, and they then arrested his future self as well.
In Minority Report it was a future prediction a possibility that hadn't occurred and clearly a mutable prediction since people could actually be arrested before the crime took place. Very weird.
I get what you're saying in us being railroaded...but the funny thing is we basically hand it to Picard...to smash it.
So you're saying that no aid counts at all unless the full might of the Federation government is immediately brought to bear to completely solve the problem of the people whose government has refused the aid of the Federation government that it means no aid has been offered at all?
If I were on the Federation Council I would also vote no, because the Na'khul officially refused our aid. Prime Directive. If they asked for help or signaled that they were open to assistance, aid, or negotiation for assistance or aid then my vote would immediately switch to yes. But I'm not going to violate General Order 01 if it's going to go to waste. I'm sure there are Krenim, Vaadwuar, Romulan, and Cardassians out there that would be happy to have those resources.
Ferris on the other hand can go kick rocks, he's a paranoid xenophobic idiot.
I'm sure Walker is well aware of that. The fascinating thing is that any time he goes home and takes off his uniform and personal shield generator he's basically reintegrated into whatever time frame it is and changed as such. Depending on how much leave we take we may not even get the same Walker back next time. Occupational Hazard. Good way to explain why the Braxton in Future's End and Relativity have two different actors and it's the same dude.
No. SOME PEOPLE are throwing away the principles of the Federation out of fear. The Federation is a democracy, which means on occasion the idiots will have their say and hold up business. "A more evolved sensibility" does not mean perfection and it doesn't mean there won't be backslides. It means that if you fail you pick yourself up and do better next time.
And what if the time cops are trying to protect their timeline because the alternative is a temporal apocalypse? Time and space aren't play things. Recall parallels where Worf almost broke a sector by letting all the alternate Enterprises slip into the normal universe?
I would hope, all of us share this sentiment, I certainly do.
A nice idea, but I'm not fond of it. It weakens the fact that the Praxis storyline was primarily environmental. The Klingons took no safety precautions and thus their mine exploded tearing apart their ozone. That's a good solid message for that time. I don't like the idea of weakening that just for the sake of this story.
It would be great for a Klingon Temporal Agent, but not a Starfleet or Romulan one. Also of note, if you destroy the Khitomer Accords, then you automatically lose the Dominion War. Considering their location the Na'khul get conquered by the Dominion.
*Applause*
No NOT TRIBBLE em. Because some of those people are my grandkids, there and I'm not saying TRIBBLE you to my own descendants. So if I can protect them by acting intelligently in the here and now then I will. Am I going to do everything the Temporal Agents say? Of course not. But I'm not going to tell them to go eat TRIBBLE either. You assume tyranny, I assume survival. If I get evidence to the contrary, I'll stun and arrest Walker myself and put his ship in the impound.
Yes, if only we could get the Na'khul to let us actually approach their star again.
What if in doing so we wipe ourselves and everyone else out? Ethics are fine and I will follow them, but I'm not cool with acting irresponsibly and getting my own civilization annihilated. And I'm not even saying that it might be the Na'khul at fault. There are probably far worse things out there.
There's a small problem with that though. Unless an Iconian submits herself for punishment we literally have NO enforcement power. As a strategic issue we lost the war. As a practical issue we survived regained all our lost territory, lost no political sovereignty, and the aggressor has mostly withdrawn, which is a victory. The only way we could punish the Iconians would've been to execute them in the past before they had committed any crimes.
How so?
For all we know not going back in time to reignite the star may prevent the Na'khul from doing something to get their species wiped out by something worse. We don't have the information with which to base that kind of decision. I'm not punishing anyone. The Na'khul have told me to TRIBBLE off, so that's what I'm doing.
The saddest part of that is the fact that we just learned this lesson. I would really hate it if it was the same twist again.
Because Time Travel Online is all about the only working solution being to kill EVERYBODY that might retaliate
Regardless of the method, that's the leverage: the Iconians surrender unconditionally to the alliance, or they're dead and their civilization can never be rebuilt, and there's justice for the tens of billions of innocent people they murdered, maimed, and made homeless.
But I guess it takes somebody with more intelligence than anybody in this game has displayed since "Delta Flight" to actually come up with that solution. As a strategic issue, we had the solution in our damn hands and we let the Iconians walk. The losing party was in a position to demand reparations at multiple times and they blew it every time.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Take your head out of your TRIBBLE.
These are not defenseless civilians we're talking about, and killing armed enemies in war is not murder. If the Iconians call your bluff in that scenario, the morally forthright opportunity to surrender has been given and rejected. Pulling the trigger then is not genocide, it's a military action of self-defense against generals and tyrants who are guilty of atrocities far beyond anything in human history from Da'esh on down, people who butchered eighteen billion Romulans who were two hundred thousand years removed from the crime committed by one single solitary individual. Sela's error was trying to avenge the wrongs of the present upon people of the past who had not yet committed those wrongs, but the Iconians of the present are the worst mass murderers in galactic history, and the Heralds and Elachi are their loyal soldiers who knew the risks and knowingly carried out their orders, and the plot as written allows them all to say "oops, my bad" and walk away without even stopping one of their number from continuing the war on her own.
I don't care what the Iconians were in the past any more than I care what the Na'kuhl might become in a future that, from my character's perspective, has yet to come to pass, meaning there is still time to change course. The present is the only timeframe that I care about unless there is a preponderance of hard data that indicates a possible future is probable to occur.* Just as Sela tried to punish the Iconians of the past for the crimes of the present, the timecops here are punishing the Na'kuhl of the present, the timecops' past, for the crimes of the future, their present. That is unjust and reprehensible. In the present the Na'kuhl are a people in need, nothing more, and aiding them regardless of the opinion of the timecops is the only moral choice.
* Real life example: The preponderance of hard data says global warming is real, man-made, and serious, ergo we should act to change course to prevent an eventual cataclysm. The preponderance of hard data also says contact with aliens is supremely unlikely, so while it's nice to theorize about it's not something we really need to legislate stuff for.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/