Of course, how much of a consolation would it be to travel in the past and only end up in a parallel timeline, knowing that your "real" girlfriend is still dead? (And wouldn't the alternative timeline's you still wan to stay together with his still alive girlfriend? Do you need to kill and replace him?)
The twist I haven't seen yet with time travel is a "pseudo-time-travel" machine. If you activate it, you just think you traveled back in time and changed the world in some way. There will be even a log of what the alleged original timeline was to be like...
So the "pseudo time machine" claims the butterfly effect restored history to the point it was identical to the events you already knew? It would be very easy to disprove that though (say, kill a major historical figure, they'd clearly not have been killed in the "new" timeline.
Well, you might go into the time machine saying "I am gonna kill Hitler", but when you return, you think you tried to kill Dr.Hurfurhurr. Anyone you told what you were going to kill Hitler would know you didn't, but you might assume that in the alternate timeline your equivalent was saying that. so you might now conclude your time machine is creating an alternate timeline branch, while everyone else thinks you're a nutjob.
Or alternatively, the pseudo-time machine alters the memories of everyone (and all records). Which would basically be just as amazing as a real time machine.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Well, you might go into the time machine saying "I am gonna kill Hitler", but when you return, you think you tried to kill Dr.Hurfurhurr. Anyone you told what you were going to kill Hitler would know you didn't, but you might assume that in the alternate timeline your equivalent was saying that. so you might now conclude your time machine is creating an alternate timeline branch, while everyone else thinks you're a nutjob.
Or alternatively, the pseudo-time machine alters the memories of everyone (and all records). Which would basically be just as amazing as a real time machine.
We only know about history from our records, if you change them then you have no way of knowing what happened. Of course this can be highly dangerous and allow to controlling and "rewriting" of history for the ends of the people in charge (see for example Orwell's 1984).
You can thank Schrodinger's beloved moggie for the physics behind that one. We can only tell what has happened from what we are currently observing, so if there is a lid on the box (or the history of the past century) then you've got no way of telling if Hitler is alive or dead.
The Na'kuhl are a threat, largely because of the loss of their star. Where it gets messy is that the Na'kuhl becoming a threat was essential for a bunch of other things, including the 'guidance' of the Klingon Empire by B'vat's ancestors and the ultimate escalation and termination of the Temporal Cold War.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
The Na'kuhl are a threat, largely because of the loss of their star. Where it gets messy is that the Na'kuhl becoming a threat was essential for a bunch of other things, including the 'guidance' of the Klingon Empire by B'vat's ancestors and the ultimate escalation and termination of the Temporal Cold War.
Ooh - good point- the Na'kuhl's little manipulation did seem to end up with, well, a lot of dead Klingon hardliners, as tensions seem to ease off after that point. Messing with that sort of isn't in the interests of those now in power in the Empire, and the Federation and the Republic certainly, realpolitik-wise, like a Klingon Empire with a diplomatic corps.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
They got the Tuterians assimilated, actually, not the Lukari. (If even that - obviously some of the Tuterians survived, it's just that instead of remaining in our spacetime they've been forced into subspace like the Solanae.)
Thanks, crossed wires. Corrected. Though...they do kind of look alike, two lovely species.
The delegates are also arrogant. You have the part where D'Tan quotes the Bible "and they shall beat their swords into plowshares". Funny thing about the context of that passage, it refers to the time after what Christians call the Second Coming of Christ, right after where it says that lions will stop eating lambs and that poisonous snakes won't be dangerous. It's referring to a state of heaven on earth brought about by the direct intervention of God, a state that is unnatural by the current order of the universe and humanly impossible to obtain. There might be a bunch of aliens in the room, but there are no gods present. It actually takes an incredible amount of hubris to think a committee could stop wars from happening, any more than they could stop basic predator-prey relationships in nature.
I think somebody needs to replay that mission. D'tan quotes that, yes - and then he notes that they'll need both swords and plowshares.
So, what you have is a few dozen of the player's war buddies getting in a room and deciding the fate of the galaxy. Even though they were appointed by different factions, by this point, they're all closer to each other than they are to the people they claim to represent. They can manipulate time now, and as I pointed out, they aren't interested in preserving the natural timeline. So which timeline are they trying to protect? Why ofcourse, any timeline which preserves the precious alliance drafted up by the executive and military leaders who are all war buddies, without the input from the people! Captain Walker even said so.
So, they're a cabal, in charge of an empire, which they brutally enforce by temporal manipulation.
I should think galactic peace is in the best interests of everyone except warmongers. Even the Klingons are okay with it, for crying out loud!
True Peace is not the absence of Tension, but the presence of Justice.
Your galactic 'peace' is built on a foundation of injustice. It is the peace of the knock at the door at midnight, of people (or PEOPLES) disappeared in the night, it is founded on a mass-grave filled with (for the most part) innocents whose lives were sacrificed in calculated fashion to make it.
The presence of absolute justice does not guarantee peace, especially in a vast multi cultural situation where different alien species have radically different ideas on what constitutes justice.
Your imagined monsters of tyranny do not exist. You have no idea the circumstances and decisions that led to the Galactic Union and the Temporal Integrity Commission. On the same note as you're working from the Na'khul have no right to lord themselves over us and wipe us out to preserve their own interests.
You speak of fatalities, but you don't speak about the losses the alliance suffered during the Iconian War, lives that no one is trying to restore, because we understand you can't go back.
It is the 'peace' of quietly-approved genocide.
"But the Na'kuhl could become a threat!!" you say-but is not predestination itself part of the problem? Could not the threat itself be the result of this cabal's actions? How can the Federation be so willing to sacrifice others, merely on what might-have-been?
The answer, is this collection of self-declared 'Time Lords' choosing who lives, and who dies with the calculus of a Stalin or a Mao.
"this race is fit to live, that race must be exterminated, these possibilities can be permitted, but not those."
All, of course, in the name of peace-it's happened before, in places like Armenia, and Kampuchea, occupied poland, and to the aboriginals in North America.
Genocide in the name of "peace" and "Order" isn't new.
First, there is no genocide to approve as the Na'khul are alive and widespread in the centuries to come. As Tolian Soran so definitively proved, if someone had wanted to tamper with the Na'khul star in a way that exterminated the Na'khul, they and their star system would not be around to complain.
Second of all the Federation was not sitting on its tail while the Na'khul suffered, the Na'khul benched us when they refused our aid.
Those "Timelords" of which you speak aren't going back and targeting people, they're trying to stop people from doing precisely what you say.
This is nothing like the brutality of the age of colonialism. What do we gain from the Na'khul? Talk to the Tholians. And again, while you're at it, talk to Vosk. Who with his mighty 29th century fleet, has not traveled back to the day the Tholians attacked and wiped their fleet out.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
If there were lots of dead Na'kuhl because of the Tox incident, the Na'kuhl did it to themselves by refusing the player factions' help. In the game's lore the old Romulan empire estimated it would've taken six weeks to evacuate Romulus. The alliance could've easily got everyone off the Na'kuhl homeworld before major loss of life, even with the magical instant star cooling.
Yea the Na'Kuhl assasin makes comments about how inferior my Vulcan tac is from a demographic/intelligence perspective, this from a society that cant seem to grasp that it was the "Tholians" that both stole and operated the device.
Obviously their sensor technology isn't very good or one would think they'd have picked up on this.
They also seem to just ignore the point that the Tox Uthat is made by a guy in the future, "you made this thing"? umm well no, "you made this thing"?, "youv'e done quite enough"!.
Sheesh get your hearing checked, and pay attention, honestly these people and the writing about them seemed weak to me.
Because messing with time creates a new timeline that is likely going to be bad for someone else.
Time plots in my opinion have been overused in the TV shows, the movies and in STO, really think the concept should have been largely stayed away from on the prolific level it has been used.
But what about?, oh yea that race had one guy that messed with time and that doesn't stand anymore, well wait that got either changed back or the timeline is now totally different anyway.
Building any kind of familiarity with a TV series, or the characters in them descends into confusion.
I believe a lot of writers go to the time subject because it's easier to rewrite some event in the past than have to come up with creative material from ground zero.
It has to be verrry carefully approached, or things in the past make little or no sense at all.
Cryptic seems to be stuck in their own "infinite loop" writing storylines about time line manipulation, wirte about something else already.
Because messing with time creates a new timeline that is likely going to be bad for someone else.
Time plots in my opinion have been overused in the TV shows, the movies and in STO, really think the concept should have been largely stayed away from on the prolific level it has been used.
But what about?, oh yea that race had one guy that messed with time and that doesn't stand anymore, well wait that got either changed back or the timeline is now totally different anyway.
Building any kind of familiarity with a TV series, or the characters in them descends into confusion.
I believe a lot of writers go to the time subject because it's easier to rewrite some event in the past than have to come up with creative material from ground zero.
It has to be verrry carefully approached, or things in the past make little or no sense at all.
Cryptic seems to be stuck in their own "infinite loop" writing storylines about time line manipulation, wirte about something else already.
Cryptic seems to be stuck in their own "infinite loop" writing storylines about time line manipulation, wirte about something else already.
I honestly dont see how you can say that when basically none of the game missions, outside the Dividan arc, up until the end of the Iconian war, which happened 5 years after release, were about time travel.
How can it be an infinite loop when this is basically the second narrative arc to use it?
Why the TRIBBLE are people so prone to blatant lies and gross exaggeration on these forums?
Not wrong. However his statement started out referring to the broad swath of sci-fi, including Star Trek which has certainly gone to the Temporal Well a large number of times.
This is technically the third arc and the sixth instance of time travel in STO. Once in the Klingon Arc chasing B'Vat and Miral into the past, then twice in the Devidian Arc, the STF Khitomer Vortex, the Temporal Ambassador mission with the Enterprise-C, then with the Krenim and the temporal tampering in the Iconian War, which lead directly into this Temporal Front storyline.
To make it worse this entire current story arc is based on the Temporal Cold War arc from Enterprise, one of the worst received story arcs in all Star Trek.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Not wrong. However his statement started out referring to the broad swath of sci-fi, including Star Trek which has certainly gone to the Temporal Well a large number of times.
This is technically the third arc and the sixth instance of time travel in STO. Once in the Klingon Arc chasing B'Vat and Miral into the past, then twice in the Devidian Arc, the STF Khitomer Vortex, the Temporal Ambassador mission with the Enterprise-C, then with the Krenim and the temporal tampering in the Iconian War, which lead directly into this Temporal Front storyline.
To make it worse this entire current story arc is based on the Temporal Cold War arc from Enterprise, one of the worst received story arcs in all Star Trek.
A. You dont time travel in Temporal Ambassador, you get sucked into an alternate timeline.
B. This temporal stroyline was caused by the Krenim Weapon ship, and when you used it in Butterfly, you didn't travel through time. Much like Temporal Ambassador, you moved sideways in time, still existing in the same time, just a different version of that time. There was no "time travel" since you neither moved forwards or backwards in time.
C. The Dividan arc is part of the Klingon War arc.
A) Fair point, it is still a temporal event.
I counted that all in the same as us using that Weapons Ship to time travel to Iconia c. 198,000 BC. And you say moving sideways in time as if that's normal travel.
C) I count it as separate since Klingons were not the primary villains at all. At five episodes it more than counts as its own arc. I don't count the 2400 as part of the Cardassian Struggle either.
EVERYTHING in Enterprise was poorly received... all for the same reasons, bad acting and terrible direction. There is nothing fundamentally wrong about the premise of a time war, hell, its probably one of THE most original arc in Trek since ToS aired. Saying everyone hated it is pointless when 99% of Trek fandom hated everything about ENT due to massive corporate meddling.
In my personal opinion, STO has already done far better then ENT in regards to the Temporal War plot as it
A. Actually explained where the Sphere Builders came from, why they wanted to get into normal space when they seemed otherwise fine in their own realm in the TV show, and why they hate the Feds so much
B. Actually explained where the Na'Khul came from, why they are so opposed to regulated time travel when basically all other races are fine with it, and why they hate the Feds so much
C. Why the Tholians were involved AT ALL
D. Manged to tie it into the greater narrative far more then ENT did
So, unless you can explain why time travel war is so bad without saying "well ENT sucked!" I really can't take that argument seriously.
Actually your assumption fails on the face of it. I adored Enterprise. With the exception of the original series each Star Trek series has had issues in their first few years, usually taking time to pull it together both in writing and in the cast. And sure enough by the third and fourth season Enterprise had found its legs.
But the Temporal Cold War TRIBBLE was pointless, needless, and worthless. And I never wanted to see a sequel to it. And clearly the producers only shoehorned it in because they were told to, but it was never fleshed our or resolved. I was good with that, because I simply didn't want to see it. And no one else did either. I think it was a grievous error to take it up at all in STO.
Yeah STO has done a far more serviceable job of building out the Temporal Cold War. But they're building on garbage in my view. It's simply not an enjoyable story for me. There are many logical faults that have been brought up in this thread that have not been handled well. A big problem I have is us being brought forward in time to actually fight. When that occurred in Enterprise Daniels accidentally undid his timeline, but we've traveled to the future twice with no consequence. The aforementioned us fighting in the future at all, when if we're temporal agents we should be conducting business in our own time.
Someone else along the line pointed out that much of this story could've been done in the present with no temporal element. I'm not sure about that, but the political themes could've easily been addressed.
As a matter of game direction, with New Dawn we were supposed to be getting more...peaceful content. Instead, back to a new war.
Of course this is all subjective, but the time travel is not universally well received.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
My biggest beef is why the PC and Kal Dano try to restore the Star instead of just hiding the Tox Uthat. They had recovered it, so why couldn't they use it?
Look at how the Lukari star looks when we save it, and how the Na'Khul star looks when we do not save it.
The devices used to destroy the respective stars were different. There is no reason to assume that the same device can fix both. There must be a reason why the Tholians used the Tox Uthat on the Na'Khul star instead of whatever they used on the Lukari star. (and why they use a star-destruction in the first place to attract Kal Dano's attention to get the Tox Uthat.)
It's unfortunately not spelled out in the mission explicitely, but it seems very likely to me that whatever the Tox Uthat does cannot be undone with Kal Dano's device. It's either just too late, or very different.
I think what happened is that the Tholian are enforcing the Temporal Accords by doing what they must do (actions that must be taken in the past, present and future).. its seems that they live in a temporal flux, so they can see their past, present and future.. that's what i think at least..
Honestly I thought the despotic and self-serving nature of the Temporal Accords was largely self evident. Self-serving: it literally exists to protect itself. Nobility is NOT an issue or goal. It's laid out very plainly that the ends justifies the means as far as Walker and all the rest are concerned and they can hardly be considered unbiased observers. They make decisions and meddle in the past not because something is morally right, but because that's the path that leads to their future. Full Stop. The simple act of telling people in the highest levels of the Federation that in the future the Na'kuhl will be terrorists is pure self-serving meddling and I was crying there was no Vulcan in the room to say "look, intel from the future is cute, but our obligation to the ideals of the Federation here, now, today is to help these people and wipe this timeline we're getting intel from where we become raging asshats out of existence by our proper conduct here, now, today." SOMEBODY ought to have had the wherewithal to not participate in a self-fulfilling prophecy being engineered by the beneficiaries of the prophecy.
I thought the punch line would be we'd see some other self-organizing and self-protecting time-travel capable alternative fighting to protect it's own potential existence. That's where temporal wars are rooted - between alternate futures of a mutually contradictory nature. Instead we get this fragmentary rag-tag resistance that in any sci-fi setting other than Star Trek's presumptively all-noble Federation would be the "Rebel Alliance" underdogs fighting for a future that isn't one of Borg-esque Galactic Unity.
Instead we rush towards Universal Root-Beer without a care in the world. It's repulsive.
2) Kal Dano comes back in time with a superweapon to save his own ancestor world and fails to secure it.
Ah, yes, the good old "you failed to secure it, therefore, you're fully responsible". It'd be correct if it was blatant negligence or stupid boasting confidence like leaving it on the open, knowing someone would grab it and telling them to bring it on. Nevermind the guy who stole the stuff was actually better prepared, expected you and knew exactly what and where to find since they can see through timelines.
5) The Na'kuhl, in an amazing display of patience, make multiple diplomatic requests to have their star returned to them --a star, I remind you, that was destroyed due to temporal shenanigans the TA has chosen to turn a blind eye to-- and are summarily denied. Not only do they refuse to do anything to fix it, they actively prevent the Na'kuhl from doing so either.
"Diplomatic". OK, now the Na'kuhl radicals and jerks are diplomatic... Great, this is getting better and better.
We offered the help and they turned us down several times. Heck, Kuumarke had to violate their space in the Defiant just to try and help while they were sitting there doing nothing but refusing assistance.
And as proven by Vosk, the Na'kuhl terrorists do not care about restoring their star, they only care about destroying who they deem as responsible and not even directly but by attacking their less-advanced ancestors, like cowards... for the glory of Na'kuhl, of course.
6) Only after they are repeatedly denied do SOME of them resort to violent action to save their star, their world, and their people. Did I mention that they've also been treated like second class scum of the galaxy during the intervening centuries as well? And people like you wonder why they're maybe a tad bit miffed.
As mentioned earlier, I don't see how they try to save their world when they're only focused to destroy people in the past. Pretty convoluted when a much simpler and more heroic way would be to travel in the early 2410 near Lukari Prime and attempt to assist Dano and the player in destroying the Tholians.
Also, the whole "treated like second class scum" is BS. You only hear from the Na'kuhl protester at the Khitomer Temporal Accords, and with the several blogs and the comments by Walker, it's pretty obvious she's a liar, heck she's even allowed to voice her opinions in a very serious treaty. They're treated like refugees but that's really what they are and it's not a bad thing...[beat] OK, being a refugee is terrible for the person, but I meant, it's not their fault. Whether or not they're treated well by other people is another can of worms.
7) The aforementioned temporal agency declares them terrorists and criminals for breaking the "law" that sentenced them to death for no crime whatsoever.
No, they deem them terrorists because that's what the radical elements are.
It seems the easiest way for the Na'Khul to restore their homeworld would be to attack the Tholian vessels that use the Tox Uthat against them. It were just two ships that came a bit too late when it happened - that Na'khul attack on the convoy send against the Tholians forces at Na'Khul would most likely have achieved a lot more than we did.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If I were a 29th century Na'kuhl temporal assassin looking for vengeance, I'd go back to shoot the moron(s) on the Na'kuhl government who refused help from the player factions. They are the reason the future Na'kuhl are "refugees" instead of living happily on a new world like the Romulans.
Cryptic seems to be stuck in their own "infinite loop" writing storylines about time line manipulation, wirte about something else already.
I honestly dont see how you can say that when basically none of the game missions, outside the Dividan arc, up until the end of the Iconian war, which happened 5 years after release, were about time travel.
How can it be an infinite loop when this is basically the second narrative arc to use it?
Why the TRIBBLE are people so prone to blatant lies and gross exaggeration on these forums?
Time travel, alternate timelines have been written about since TOS, which also had it's fair share of laughable writing.
Time based stories have been overused and leaned on everywhere in trek history.
Rolls eyes, "oh no, not another time issue".
A 10 yr old likes some character and identifies with a series, movie or game because of that character, poof now their the bad guy, or just never has been altogether.
So unless the said 10 yr old wants to itemize all the changes in history, confusion, or worse loss of interest often follows.
No gross exaggeration or lies were involved in it anywhere, it's overused.
If the new trek series revolves around the 29th century, and temporal starfleet whatever, ill never watch it.
Actually your assumption fails on the face of it. I adored Enterprise.
And no one else did either.
There are many logical faults that have been brought up in this thread that have not been handled well.
As a matter of game direction, with New Dawn we were supposed to be getting more...peaceful content. Instead, back to a new war.
Of course this is all subjective, but the time travel is not universally well received.
I specifically mentioned 99%, not 100%, of Trek fandom hated it. So no, it fits perfectly with my assumption.
Actually your assumption fails on the face of it. I know plenty of people who liked the premise of the TCW.
You mean the same "logical faults" that have been summarily dismissed with in-game and TV show lore along with basic reasoning not only by myself but by others as well? Only proves that some people have a hard time understanding anything that isn't a perfectly linear series of events.
Wrong, and I am sick and tired of people trying to push that lie. Cryptic said from the beginning we would not be putting down our weapons, because there is always someone out there who hates us. Season 11 was getting back to exploring new frontiers, and we are, the final frontier of TIME. Its inexcusable that you would stop so low. as to blond face lie like that. If you aren't going to be honest, don't respond at all. Though, blatant dishonesty seems to be a sickening trend here.
Nothing is, but that is not an excuse to not use it.
I don't know why anyone would. It was unnecessary. The entire premise of Enterprise was to show the events that led to the creation of the Federation. The Temporal Cold War arc was a massive distraction from that. And you're the first person I've spoken with who actually liked it.
On the subject of things being subjective your count of dismissed and mine are plainly different. We're calling them as we see them indifferent directions here. Insulting people's level of understanding does not make you seem like a victor in the arguments.
I never read that. As a matter of fact this is what I read.
The Iconian War is finally behind us. The finale of the Iconian War, Midnight, showed that the Alliance is bold enough to be principled, and strong enough to truly uphold those principles when their backs are to the wall. Everyone on every side of that conflict is ready to move on from that dark time in the New Dawn of Season 11.
We’ll also be moving the main story arc along for Star Trek Online as a whole. With the war over, and a large alliance of varied species, the impulse to discover is re-emerging. We’ll be investigating parts of the Alpha Quadrant that haven’t been seen before, making first contact with a new species, and seeing the far reaching effects of our extensive use of time travel in the Iconian War.
So when I read that, I figured the first two things in that sentence would take primacy, instead of the last thing being the supreme determining factor in everything in the game. Clearly I assumed wrong. And yes I understand that they actually did all those things showing us two new systems and two new species...it was just...brief. Legitimately of course any exploration worth its salt would have to be an expansion pack instead of just a new season.
Don't assume dishonesty and demonize people who disagree with you. Differing perspectives and focus are more than enough to cover our disagreements by a lot.
My biggest beef is why the PC and Kal Dano try to restore the Star instead of just hiding the Tox Uthat. They had recovered it, so why couldn't they use it?
Look at how the Lukari star looks when we save it, and how the Na'Khul star looks when we do not save it.
The devices used to destroy the respective stars were different. There is no reason to assume that the same device can fix both. There must be a reason why the Tholians used the Tox Uthat on the Na'Khul star instead of whatever they used on the Lukari star. (and why they use a star-destruction in the first place to attract Kal Dano's attention to get the Tox Uthat.)
It's unfortunately not spelled out in the mission explicitely, but it seems very likely to me that whatever the Tox Uthat does cannot be undone with Kal Dano's device. It's either just too late, or very different.
I think what happened is that the Tholian are enforcing the Temporal Accords by doing what they must do (actions that must be taken in the past, present and future).. its seems that they live in a temporal flux, so they can see their past, present and future.. that's what i think at least..
I've seen that as implied since I spoke to the Tholian Ambassador at the Temporal Accords, but we can't really make judgments on that until it's confirmed. The Tholian Ambassador was clear that they were taking a much harder line on this issue than anyone else and that they would act beyond the confines of the Temporal Accords to enforce their absolutist position if they felt the Temporal Accords would fail to protect them.
3) The Tholians, who stole the weapon, attack and destroy the Na'kuhl star costing them their homeworld, way of life, and billions of their citizens.
4) Walker and the Temporal (self-declared) Authority state that the outcome is "as it should be" and that the Na'kuhl must accept their doom because reasons.
5) The Na'kuhl, in an amazing display of patience, make multiple diplomatic requests to have their star returned to them --a star, I remind you, that was destroyed due to temporal shenanigans the TA has chosen to turn a blind eye to-- and are summarily denied. Not only do they refuse to do anything to fix it, they actively prevent the Na'kuhl from doing so either.
6) Only after they are repeatedly denied do SOME of them resort to violent action to save their star, their world, and their people. Did I mention that they've also been treated like second class scum of the galaxy during the intervening centuries as well? And people like you wonder why they're maybe a tad bit miffed.
7) The aforementioned temporal agency declares them terrorists and criminals for breaking the "law" that sentenced them to death for no crime whatsoever.
-How can you possibly say that this doesn't constitute genocidal aggression against an innocent species who only wanted to be left alone? Being antisocial and sticking to themselves isn't a crime, let alone one worthy of the death penalty. The Na'kuhl are acting in self defense against an agency that has elected itself gods of the timeline and arbiter of who lives or dies according to their own standards and for their own benefit, without any accountability.
-Would you accept their decree if it were Sol, Earth, and humanity whom these future people decided needed to be destroyed in order to benefit them? I think not.
-Earth was willing to commit genocide by time travel to save their own butts, and everyone seems to think that's perfectly legitimate self-preservation in the face of aggression. The Na'kuhl get no such consideration, and are instead expected to just lay down and accept destruction. The hypocrisy is disgusting.
-So to boil it down, the Alliance is allowed to use time travel to save themselves from a conventional military threat without anyone complaining about preserving the timeline without alteration and the Na'kuhl are not allowed to use time travel to save themselves from a threat caused by time travelers, because preserve the timeline. Do you really not see the double standard here?
3. Well, first off, this is 100% bull. There has been no evidence that the use of the Tox Uthat caused any significant loss of life for the Na'Kuhl. This entire idea of any sort of Na'Kuhl genocide is literally 100% pure fanfiction at this point. Nor did the loss of the star significantly change their way it life, it just changed where they lived it. They still remained the same isolationist xenophobes they were before.
4. That's because it is as, even by the events of STO, not letting the star die would change the timeline significantly due to the Na'Kuhl's actions in the past in Enterprise. Its literally a predestination paradox at this point, in the same manner as Sela/Iconians.
5. They literally did no such thing, in fact, the Na'Kuhl's first response was to tell us to go away even AFTER we told them we wanted to help them get their star back, or at least help them evac their world to a more habitable one.
6. Except they haven't. In fact, the blogs make it clear most of the galaxy views most of the Na'kuhl as just normal people. The only problem for the Na'Kuhl has been their own arrogance and xenophobia, and their refusal of anyone's help afterwards.
7. Again, this literally never happens, and the Temporal Agents even specifically say several times during the missions and blogs that most Na'Kuhl are law abiding people and they have no problem with them.
-Because basically everything you said is 100% made up and goes against literally everything shown and said both in-game and in the lore blogs.
-If it meant saving the galaxy from a race of genocidal energy beings attempting to destroy all like the galaxy... sure.
-Actually they don't. In fact, it was brought up numerous times in the Iconian war arc how no one wanted to do that because it violated every code the factions stood for. And after going back in time, the first thing everyone does is abandon that mission because of how obviously dumb it is.
-Except the Na'Kuhl have made no attempts to do that, in fact, all they have used time travel for is assassinations in revenge attempts rather then star restoration. Also, again, the loss of the Na'Kuhl star killed literally no one. Its nothing like the Iconian situation where the Iconians were attempted to purge all life from the galaxy that isn't them.
Also, going back in time to Iconia did preserve the timeline, as it had already happened before we did it. Hence the Iconian's knowledge of the "other" in the Iconian war missions long before we had gone back in time. However, we can clearly see in Enterprise, and everything in STO to the point, that no one had gone back in time to save the Na'Kuhl star, thus trying to do so would change the timeline.
Let me say it one more time. The Na'kuhl wanted only to be left alone and mind their own business inside their own home system, and all they STILL want is to go back to that. So I repeat, can't we just give them back their freaking star already?
Because they caused their own problems.
The Tholians only attacked the Na'Kuhl using the Tox Uthat in response to the Na'Kuhl traveling back in time and attacking the Tholians in response to it. Its a pre-destination paradox, meaning it CANNOT be changed.
This what the WHOLE point of the Butterfly mission, time cannot ever truly be changed. Worlds lost, like Romulus, will remain lost. Had the Iconians not nuked Romulus, the Borg would have assimilated it.
Had the Na'Kuhl star not been destroyed by the Tholians, something else would have destroyed it. Time cannot be fought, as it fights back harder every time.
The Tholians using the Tox on the star is likely the least violent outcome for the Na'Kuhl, as no one dies from it, and they all manage to leave their world and live regardless.
It's amazing how much we can disagree elsewhere with you calling me a liar, and agree so completely here.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
It seems the easiest way for the Na'Khul to restore their homeworld would be to attack the Tholian vessels that use the Tox Uthat against them. It were just two ships that came a bit too late when it happened - that Na'khul attack on the convoy send against the Tholians forces at Na'Khul would most likely have achieved a lot more than we did.
Absolutely logical, the first clue that he wants something other than the salvation of his homeworld.
Legitimately, without the assault on the Na'khul star, Vosk would not have the grievance that he needs to form his terrorist faction. Hitler doesn't happen if Germany wins World War I after all.
If I were a 29th century Na'kuhl temporal assassin looking for vengeance, I'd go back to shoot the moron(s) on the Na'kuhl government who refused help from the player factions. They are the reason the future Na'kuhl are "refugees" instead of living happily on a new world like the Romulans.
Considering that these terrorists are the most prideful and suspicious Na'khul I doubt that they would disagree with a decision made out of pride and suspicion. I'm sure in their mind they were protecting Na'khul dignity.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
If I were a 29th century Na'kuhl temporal assassin looking for vengeance, I'd go back to shoot the moron(s) on the Na'kuhl government who refused help from the player factions. They are the reason the future Na'kuhl are "refugees" instead of living happily on a new world like the Romulans.
Lol someone who applies common sense to a situation, you wouldn't happen to have the writers phone no. would you?.
If I were a 29th century Na'kuhl temporal assassin looking for vengeance, I'd go back to shoot the moron(s) on the Na'kuhl government who refused help from the player factions. They are the reason the future Na'kuhl are "refugees" instead of living happily on a new world like the Romulans.
Lol someone who applies common sense to a situation, you wouldn't happen to have the writers phone no. would you?.
Maybe you can throw some tips around.^^
Except this kind of misblame also and sadly happens in real life, so it's not a writer's mistake.
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Or alternatively, the pseudo-time machine alters the memories of everyone (and all records). Which would basically be just as amazing as a real time machine.
We only know about history from our records, if you change them then you have no way of knowing what happened. Of course this can be highly dangerous and allow to controlling and "rewriting" of history for the ends of the people in charge (see for example Orwell's 1984).
You can thank Schrodinger's beloved moggie for the physics behind that one. We can only tell what has happened from what we are currently observing, so if there is a lid on the box (or the history of the past century) then you've got no way of telling if Hitler is alive or dead.
The Na'kuhl are a threat, largely because of the loss of their star. Where it gets messy is that the Na'kuhl becoming a threat was essential for a bunch of other things, including the 'guidance' of the Klingon Empire by B'vat's ancestors and the ultimate escalation and termination of the Temporal Cold War.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Ooh - good point- the Na'kuhl's little manipulation did seem to end up with, well, a lot of dead Klingon hardliners, as tensions seem to ease off after that point. Messing with that sort of isn't in the interests of those now in power in the Empire, and the Federation and the Republic certainly, realpolitik-wise, like a Klingon Empire with a diplomatic corps.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Thanks, crossed wires. Corrected. Though...they do kind of look alike, two lovely species.
The presence of absolute justice does not guarantee peace, especially in a vast multi cultural situation where different alien species have radically different ideas on what constitutes justice.
Your imagined monsters of tyranny do not exist. You have no idea the circumstances and decisions that led to the Galactic Union and the Temporal Integrity Commission. On the same note as you're working from the Na'khul have no right to lord themselves over us and wipe us out to preserve their own interests.
You speak of fatalities, but you don't speak about the losses the alliance suffered during the Iconian War, lives that no one is trying to restore, because we understand you can't go back.
First, there is no genocide to approve as the Na'khul are alive and widespread in the centuries to come. As Tolian Soran so definitively proved, if someone had wanted to tamper with the Na'khul star in a way that exterminated the Na'khul, they and their star system would not be around to complain.
Second of all the Federation was not sitting on its tail while the Na'khul suffered, the Na'khul benched us when they refused our aid.
Those "Timelords" of which you speak aren't going back and targeting people, they're trying to stop people from doing precisely what you say.
This is nothing like the brutality of the age of colonialism. What do we gain from the Na'khul? Talk to the Tholians. And again, while you're at it, talk to Vosk. Who with his mighty 29th century fleet, has not traveled back to the day the Tholians attacked and wiped their fleet out.
The Na'kuhl were just too stubborn to live.
Obviously their sensor technology isn't very good or one would think they'd have picked up on this.
They also seem to just ignore the point that the Tox Uthat is made by a guy in the future, "you made this thing"? umm well no, "you made this thing"?, "youv'e done quite enough"!.
Sheesh get your hearing checked, and pay attention, honestly these people and the writing about them seemed weak to me.
Time plots in my opinion have been overused in the TV shows, the movies and in STO, really think the concept should have been largely stayed away from on the prolific level it has been used.
But what about?, oh yea that race had one guy that messed with time and that doesn't stand anymore, well wait that got either changed back or the timeline is now totally different anyway.
Building any kind of familiarity with a TV series, or the characters in them descends into confusion.
I believe a lot of writers go to the time subject because it's easier to rewrite some event in the past than have to come up with creative material from ground zero.
It has to be verrry carefully approached, or things in the past make little or no sense at all.
Cryptic seems to be stuck in their own "infinite loop" writing storylines about time line manipulation, wirte about something else already.
Co-Signed.
End the Temporal Wars and leave them ended.
Not wrong. However his statement started out referring to the broad swath of sci-fi, including Star Trek which has certainly gone to the Temporal Well a large number of times.
This is technically the third arc and the sixth instance of time travel in STO. Once in the Klingon Arc chasing B'Vat and Miral into the past, then twice in the Devidian Arc, the STF Khitomer Vortex, the Temporal Ambassador mission with the Enterprise-C, then with the Krenim and the temporal tampering in the Iconian War, which lead directly into this Temporal Front storyline.
To make it worse this entire current story arc is based on the Temporal Cold War arc from Enterprise, one of the worst received story arcs in all Star Trek.
Sorry, I still liked that series very much.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
A) Fair point, it is still a temporal event.
C) I count it as separate since Klingons were not the primary villains at all. At five episodes it more than counts as its own arc. I don't count the 2400 as part of the Cardassian Struggle either.
Actually your assumption fails on the face of it. I adored Enterprise. With the exception of the original series each Star Trek series has had issues in their first few years, usually taking time to pull it together both in writing and in the cast. And sure enough by the third and fourth season Enterprise had found its legs.
But the Temporal Cold War TRIBBLE was pointless, needless, and worthless. And I never wanted to see a sequel to it. And clearly the producers only shoehorned it in because they were told to, but it was never fleshed our or resolved. I was good with that, because I simply didn't want to see it. And no one else did either. I think it was a grievous error to take it up at all in STO.
Yeah STO has done a far more serviceable job of building out the Temporal Cold War. But they're building on garbage in my view. It's simply not an enjoyable story for me. There are many logical faults that have been brought up in this thread that have not been handled well. A big problem I have is us being brought forward in time to actually fight. When that occurred in Enterprise Daniels accidentally undid his timeline, but we've traveled to the future twice with no consequence. The aforementioned us fighting in the future at all, when if we're temporal agents we should be conducting business in our own time.
Someone else along the line pointed out that much of this story could've been done in the present with no temporal element. I'm not sure about that, but the political themes could've easily been addressed.
As a matter of game direction, with New Dawn we were supposed to be getting more...peaceful content. Instead, back to a new war.
Of course this is all subjective, but the time travel is not universally well received.
I think what happened is that the Tholian are enforcing the Temporal Accords by doing what they must do (actions that must be taken in the past, present and future).. its seems that they live in a temporal flux, so they can see their past, present and future.. that's what i think at least..
I thought the punch line would be we'd see some other self-organizing and self-protecting time-travel capable alternative fighting to protect it's own potential existence. That's where temporal wars are rooted - between alternate futures of a mutually contradictory nature. Instead we get this fragmentary rag-tag resistance that in any sci-fi setting other than Star Trek's presumptively all-noble Federation would be the "Rebel Alliance" underdogs fighting for a future that isn't one of Borg-esque Galactic Unity.
Instead we rush towards Universal Root-Beer without a care in the world. It's repulsive.
"Diplomatic". OK, now the Na'kuhl radicals and jerks are diplomatic... Great, this is getting better and better.
We offered the help and they turned us down several times. Heck, Kuumarke had to violate their space in the Defiant just to try and help while they were sitting there doing nothing but refusing assistance.
And as proven by Vosk, the Na'kuhl terrorists do not care about restoring their star, they only care about destroying who they deem as responsible and not even directly but by attacking their less-advanced ancestors, like cowards... for the glory of Na'kuhl, of course.
As mentioned earlier, I don't see how they try to save their world when they're only focused to destroy people in the past. Pretty convoluted when a much simpler and more heroic way would be to travel in the early 2410 near Lukari Prime and attempt to assist Dano and the player in destroying the Tholians.
Also, the whole "treated like second class scum" is BS. You only hear from the Na'kuhl protester at the Khitomer Temporal Accords, and with the several blogs and the comments by Walker, it's pretty obvious she's a liar, heck she's even allowed to voice her opinions in a very serious treaty. They're treated like refugees but that's really what they are and it's not a bad thing...[beat] OK, being a refugee is terrible for the person, but I meant, it's not their fault. Whether or not they're treated well by other people is another can of worms.
No, they deem them terrorists because that's what the radical elements are.
Time travel, alternate timelines have been written about since TOS, which also had it's fair share of laughable writing.
Time based stories have been overused and leaned on everywhere in trek history.
Rolls eyes, "oh no, not another time issue".
A 10 yr old likes some character and identifies with a series, movie or game because of that character, poof now their the bad guy, or just never has been altogether.
So unless the said 10 yr old wants to itemize all the changes in history, confusion, or worse loss of interest often follows.
No gross exaggeration or lies were involved in it anywhere, it's overused.
If the new trek series revolves around the 29th century, and temporal starfleet whatever, ill never watch it.
I don't know why anyone would. It was unnecessary. The entire premise of Enterprise was to show the events that led to the creation of the Federation. The Temporal Cold War arc was a massive distraction from that. And you're the first person I've spoken with who actually liked it.
On the subject of things being subjective your count of dismissed and mine are plainly different. We're calling them as we see them indifferent directions here. Insulting people's level of understanding does not make you seem like a victor in the arguments.
I never read that. As a matter of fact this is what I read.
So when I read that, I figured the first two things in that sentence would take primacy, instead of the last thing being the supreme determining factor in everything in the game. Clearly I assumed wrong. And yes I understand that they actually did all those things showing us two new systems and two new species...it was just...brief. Legitimately of course any exploration worth its salt would have to be an expansion pack instead of just a new season.
Don't assume dishonesty and demonize people who disagree with you. Differing perspectives and focus are more than enough to cover our disagreements by a lot.
I've seen that as implied since I spoke to the Tholian Ambassador at the Temporal Accords, but we can't really make judgments on that until it's confirmed. The Tholian Ambassador was clear that they were taking a much harder line on this issue than anyone else and that they would act beyond the confines of the Temporal Accords to enforce their absolutist position if they felt the Temporal Accords would fail to protect them.
It's amazing how much we can disagree elsewhere with you calling me a liar, and agree so completely here.
Absolutely logical, the first clue that he wants something other than the salvation of his homeworld.
Legitimately, without the assault on the Na'khul star, Vosk would not have the grievance that he needs to form his terrorist faction. Hitler doesn't happen if Germany wins World War I after all.
Considering that these terrorists are the most prideful and suspicious Na'khul I doubt that they would disagree with a decision made out of pride and suspicion. I'm sure in their mind they were protecting Na'khul dignity.
Lol someone who applies common sense to a situation, you wouldn't happen to have the writers phone no. would you?.
Maybe you can throw some tips around.^^
My character Tsin'xing