I want to point out, specifically, the point where we are told Fed Diplomats know of the future events of the Na'Khul.... in casy anyone else accuses people of "making up stories" about the future having an impact on the Federation aid vote...
“I think Ambassador Troi’s position on the Na’kuhl Crisis is well-documented, Mr. President… and, frankly, reckless.” Ferris paused briefly, ignoring a steely gaze from the Ambassador sitting next to him. “Sir, we need to be more vigilant when dealing with a potential security threat, especially considering what we’ve learned took place in the 29th century.”
Okeg frowned slightly at that. “He’s making the most of his recent appointment to the Starfleet Intelligence Committee,” he thought. “One more weapon in his arsenal.”
“I’ve read that report too, Councilman,” Troi said with disdain. “I’ll remind you that the Krenim were involved in that attack as well. I don’t see their names on your threat list.”
“The Krenim are currently our allies, Ambassador… the Na’kuhl are not. I’d say that calls for a different level of response, wouldn’t you?”
As Troi glared at her opponent, Okeg took the opportunity to interject… while it was still possible.
“Councilman, recall that both the Klingons and Romulans were once our bitter enemies,” the President said calmly. “Through diplomacy, they are now trusted partners in the Alliance. In time, the same could be said for the Na’kuhl.”
“Or do you want to close our borders to them, too?” Lwaxana said contemptuously. “I’m sure J’mpok would just love an opportunity to rattle his bat’leth and test your nerve.”
Ferris regarded the Ambassador dismissively, his brow furrowed. “Don’t be ridiculous. In the case of the Na’kuhl – and, for that matter, the Krenim – we will need to watch them closely and restrict their access to many parts of Federation space until we have a better understanding of their intentions. Just as we monitor, and in some cases restrict, our ‘allies’ the Klingons and the Romulans… or am I to believe that Starfleet and Section 31 have placed them above suspicion?”
“Section 31 hasn’t placed their own mothers above suspicion,” replied Troi archly, “let alone the Klingons and the Romulans. That has nothing to do with giving relief and aid to people in dire need!”
Okeg cleared his throat, bringing a momentary cease-fire to the field of diplomatic battle. “I believe it is important to consider that the attacks mentioned by the Councilman took place centuries in the future. Judging the Na’kuhl – or the Krenim – today on the tragic events of a potential tomorrow seems… ill-advised.”
“I completely agree, Mr. President, “Lwaxana replied, still glaring at Ferris. “Turning our backs on the Na’kuhl today could very well create the troubles you’re all wound up about tomorrow… and then some.“
now... during the FE our captain was PRECISELY told, by Walker, not to share what happened here.... sooo... HOW DID THE FEDS get this information without a blabbermouth from that future "sharing?"
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
The saddest part of that is the fact that we just learned this lesson. I would really hate it if it was the same twist again.
I wouldn't see it as a twist, they haven't exactly done much to hide it.
Nor would I particularly mind seeing it again. History always repeats itself, and when time travel becomes commonplace, this exact cycle of revenge would likely be one of the singular most common paradoxes to come up.
Hmmm. That is true. At least it wouldn't be the Delta Alliance learning the lesson again.
"Those who do not heed history are doomed to repeat it." "Those who do heed history are doomed to watch others repeat it."
BTW, my point about "Midnight" was that I don't care what the Iconians used to be, I only care that they are properly held to account for their actions in the present, which they abundantly were not. Some people, in-universe and out, were trying to act like a predestination paradox absolves them of all responsibility. It does not and should not, because if you accept that then you're a hair away from letting a murderer off the hook for murder on the justification that he was fated to commit it. Here we're in the opposite scenario, where we're holding the Na'kuhl of the present responsible for their minority's actions in the future, which is utterly immoral.
The Alliance never had the capability of holding the Iconians responsible in the present. The only time they had any power over the Iconians is when they went to a vulnerable point in their distant past, that was the entire point of going there in the first place. Once there, they chose to take the high road and not punish the innocent Iconians of the past for the crimes they had yet to commit. In the present, the ONLY thing the Alliance could do was accept the offered ceasefire because it beat the hell out of surrender and obliteration. We know there has been no justice for those the Iconians killed in the war, nobody's arguing that those scales have been balanced. Unfortunately, however, the losing party isn't in a position to demand reparations. It sucks, but them's the breaks.
There's a small problem with that though. Unless an Iconian submits herself for punishment we literally have NO enforcement power. As a strategic issue we lost the war. As a practical issue we survived regained all our lost territory, lost no political sovereignty, and the aggressor has mostly withdrawn, which is a victory. The only way we could punish the Iconians would've been to execute them in the past before they had committed any crimes.
How so?
For all we know not going back in time to reignite the star may prevent the Na'khul from doing something to get their species wiped out by something worse. We don't have the information with which to base that kind of decision. I'm not punishing anyone. The Na'khul have told me to TRIBBLE off, so that's what I'm doing.
You want to know how we hold the Iconians to account? Really? I'll tell you how: we blackmail them with the superweapons the Star Trek Online universe is frakking littered with. I rather doubt their precious Herald Sphere would react well to a red matter bomb. Or Omega particle detonations to make them unable to move forces. Or shoot a trilithium warhead into the sun in "Broken Circle" instead of chasing M'tara around. Or the option in "Midnight" that I came up with in two seconds: stick an antimatter charge on a deadman switch to the World Heart. Or frakking "Time in a Bottle" when the Iconians stop to have a powwow in hostile territory and make themselves a perfect target for a grenade or orbital strike.
Regardless of the method, that's the leverage: the Iconians surrender unconditionally to the alliance, or they're dead and their civilization can never be rebuilt, and there's justice for the tens of billions of innocent people they murdered, maimed, and made homeless.
But I guess it takes somebody with more intelligence than anybody in this game has displayed since "Delta Flight" to actually come up with that solution. As a strategic issue, we had the solution in our damn hands and we let the Iconians walk. The losing party was in a position to demand reparations at multiple times and they blew it every time.
You want to know how we hold the Iconians to account? Really? I'll tell you how: we blackmail them with the superweapons the Star Trek Online universe is frakking littered with. I rather doubt their precious Herald Sphere would react well to a red matter bomb. Or Omega particle detonations to make them unable to move forces. Or shoot a trilithium warhead into the sun in "Broken Circle" instead of chasing M'tara around. Or the option in "Midnight" that I came up with in two seconds: stick an antimatter charge on a deadman switch to the World Heart. Or frakking "Time in a Bottle" when the Iconians stop to have a powwow in hostile territory and make themselves a perfect target for a grenade or orbital strike.
Its so nice to see people completely miss the entire premise of Star Trek so much.
I also find it rather ironic you complain about the Temporal Accords Police preventing the Na'Khul from being helped, then go on to say this, even worse atrocities, all in the need of petty revenge, making yourself literally no better then Sela or the Iconians themselves.
Committing mass murder does make other mass murderers held accountable for their actions.
Since Somtaawkhar so effectively pointed out the moral flaws in that, I'll look at the technical.
Red Matter. As Sela pointed out the Herald Sphere isn't their only Dyson's Sphere, it's just the one they were using to attack us. The largest Red matter detonations ever produced were insufficient to swallow a Dyson Sphere. And unlike the Enterprise, Narada, and Jellyfish, if the Iconians get caught in it, they don't need speed, they can just gate out of the area of effect. Lastly those spheres are composed of Carbon Neutronium, they may not be vulnerable to Red Matter at all. It would be an interesting science experiment, the irresistible force vs the indestructible object.
The Iconians have already mastered Omega Molecule manipulation. We'd likely end up doing vastly more damage to our own ability to traverse space while their gateway network is completely unfazed. At worst we would lock ourselves into out own systems in a temporary Pyrrhic victory, while the Iconians pop in at will to annihilate us with no way to even call for the help that could never arrive. At best the Iconians already know how to repair that damage and laugh at the attempt. At cataclysmic any such weapon would simply be gated to one of our home systems and exterminate most of our species.
I actually had considered supernova'ing the Herald Star myself, if it connected then it would certainly have wiped out their forces and dramatically shift the tide of the war. Two problems with the plan. First the Iconians opening a gateway in front of the torpedo. Second the Herald sphere was densely packed enough with starships that it literally blotted out their sun. There's no clear shot without a hundred Heralds shooting the torpedo down.
Ah yes. Mine the peace offering. In which instance you would've killed two Iconians, leaving nine with nothing more to be gained from not exterminating us.
The Time in a Bottle pow-wow. The perfect opportunity to get into a twelve Iconian Boss Fight, when they can instantly summon an entire army and fleet to their aid to kill us and the remaining Krenim off because we showed our hand. Or they could just leave through their gateway transporter and let us waste our ammo.
You see we have no leverage since with no bargaining chip they simply kill us all. The fact that they lost the World Heart was the reason they became so hostile in the first place. It was despair. They thought they had lost their entire civilization and the ability to rebuild their world. We gave that back to them. The Iconians didn't need to conquer us, since from their perspective we were the initial aggressors (thanks Sela). This was their punitive action. By giving back the World Heart we cut off the cycle of hatred, revenge, and justice before it got any worse. Your method would have simply ensured that no one survived. There was no victory to be had there beyond what we got.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
A. The whole premise of the mission was to go into the future to see what happens.
B. You were specifically chosen to minimize timeline tampering by only having one person actually see the future.
C. Walker never tells you to not speak a word of what happens during the mission, only not to reveal something that could change the timeline.
D. The Na'khul/Krenim attack, which was itself a change in the timeline, isn't something you would have been forbidden to talk about
E. It was us who told them.
Its shocking how poorly someone can understand such basic plot points.
From Memory Alpha
The Temporal Prime Directive was a fundamental Starfleet principle.
All Starfleet personnel were strictly forbidden from directly interfering with historical events and were required to maintain the timeline and prevent history from being altered. It also restricted people from telling too much about the future, so as not to cause paradoxes or alter the timeline
Lieutenant Ducane told Kathryn Janeway, "Remember the Temporal Prime Directive: discuss your experiences with no one," implying that it was the wording consistent with the Temporal Prime Directive in the 29th Century (at least in that timeline).
I.E. DONT TALK ABOUT THE FUTURE!
~Now ... Walker... is clearly a bluegill infested puppet of T'Ket's from the future.
We're changing history because we told! ... we're most likely the reason for the attack.
All I can say is, after reading this long, belligerent, genocidal, rant, I can safely say that, had you been the one the Metrons had fight the Gorn captain to the death, you would have killed him in revenge for the destruction of the Cestus colony, instead of being the better person like Kirk was.
now... during the FE our captain was PRECISELY told, by Walker, not to share what happened here.... sooo... HOW DID THE FEDS get this information without a blabbermouth from that future "sharing?"
A. The whole premise of the mission was to go into the future to see what happens.
B. You were specifically chosen to minimize timeline tampering by only having one person actually see the future.
C. Walker never tells you to not speak a word of what happens during the mission, only not to reveal something that could change the timeline.
D. The Na'khul/Krenim attack, which was itself a change in the timeline, isn't something you would have been forbidden to talk about
E. It was us who told them.
Its shocking how poorly someone can understand such basic plot points.
To add to this, why is this true our Fed/KDF/Romulan character only talked about the Krenim and Na'kuhl attack that indicates the timeline has been compromised and not the rest?
The Klingons and Romulans are not back to stop trusting or willing to be very antagonistic towards the Federation because in the future, they become part of it. Try to tell a present Klingon "Oh, by the way, you and the Romulans will join us soon in the Federation" and try not to be seriously maimed afterwards. Same with the Breen and Tholians, where in the future, they are somehow willing to join the Union instead of continuing meddling with everyone for their own motivations/pleasure.
Really, from what we have, the only thing we must have told them is: "the Accords were interrupted by what Walker says was a timeline disruption somewhere. And that's terrible. Noye was involved with the Sphere Builders (and that's even more terrible) and the Na'kuhl tried to destroy a mean to prevent more temporal disruptions."
Then, someone seemed to have leaked the info to Councilman Ferris.
Then, someone seemed to have leaked the info to Councilman Ferris.
No one needed to leak anything to him.
Everyone knew the Na'Khul would go bad in the future because of what Archer encountered. They knew for 200 years before STO even began.
This part, however, is something I still don't get, because Walker seems rather surprised that Vosk was dealt with, by Archer, while at the same time, he advised the character back in Stormbound to listen to Archer's logs about the Na'kuhl (so he should know Vosk was dealt with).
That said, I haven't watched Storm Front, so maybe it's simply because Vosk never said his name to Archer, I dunno.
EDIT: OK, I just checked on Memory Alpha and Archer knows it is Vosk. And worse, it seems "Na'kuhl" was never mentioned on screen, merely from behind-the-scenes sources. I'm gonna re-check Stormbound and see what Walker exactly says about them and Archer.
All I can say is, after reading this long, belligerent, genocidal, rant, I can safely say that, had you been the one the Metrons had fight the Gorn captain to the death, you would have killed him in revenge for the destruction of the Cestus colony, instead of being the better person like Kirk was.
now... during the FE our captain was PRECISELY told, by Walker, not to share what happened here.... sooo... HOW DID THE FEDS get this information without a blabbermouth from that future "sharing?"
A. The whole premise of the mission was to go into the future to see what happens.
B. You were specifically chosen to minimize timeline tampering by only having one person actually see the future.
C. Walker never tells you to not speak a word of what happens during the mission, only not to reveal something that could change the timeline.
D. The Na'khul/Krenim attack, which was itself a change in the timeline, isn't something you would have been forbidden to talk about
E. It was us who told them.
Its shocking how poorly someone can understand such basic plot points.
To add to this, why is this true our Fed/KDF/Romulan character only talked about the Krenim and Na'kuhl attack that indicates the timeline has been compromised and not the rest?
The Klingons and Romulans are not back to stop trusting or willing to be very antagonistic towards the Federation because in the future, they become part of it. Try to tell a present Klingon "Oh, by the way, you and the Romulans will join us soon in the Federation" and try not to be seriously maimed afterwards.
I don't know, why would they be worried about that? It means in the future, the Klingons and Romulans are still likely to be around.
It seems unlikely that the Federation conquered the Klingons (both from the view of the Federation and from the view of a Klingon or Romulan patriot ) - so it must be because it was a good choice for the Klingons and the Romulans to join - maybe the Federation changed to accomandate Romulan or Klingon sensibilities. Maybe Romulans and Klingons changed. Being a member of the Federation in some possible future (and that's all it is, in the end, unless there is no free will) isn't a sign of something terrible.
If you would tell a US Texan citizen from the 70s that in 200 years, he'd be member of the United Earth and the US or Texas weren't a political entity anymore, would he get violent over it?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
This part, however, is something I still don't get, because Walker seems rather surprised that Vosk was dealt with, by Archer, while at the same time, he advised the character back in Stormbound to listen to Archer's logs about the Na'kuhl (so he should know Vosk was dealt with).
You forget, time travel isn't a straight line.
The Walker we meet in Stormbound may be a version of Walker from the future past the one we meet in "Temporal Front"
That's an interesting theory that does make sense now I have replayed both Time & Tide and Stormbound.
The Walker from Time & Tide and forwards seems to be surprised time travelers are trying to alter the timeline and is concerned about the Na'kuhl actions as if he wasn't expecting this, while the Walker from Stormbound already knows about the Temporal Cold War and the Na'kuhl's role in it and even mentions that "you will know all about it soon enough".
Also, there is this little discussion with the temporal agent for the Delta Recruits of each faction, in Time & Tide, where, when you ask him "don't you remember me?" says he doesn't but that you may have met his future self, which could be foreshadowing.
Really, from what we have, the only thing we must have told them is: "the Accords were interrupted by what Walker says was a timeline disruption somewhere. And that's terrible. Noye was involved with the Sphere Builders (and that's even more terrible) and the Na'kuhl tried to destroy a mean to prevent more temporal disruptions."
Then, someone seemed to have leaked the info to Councilman Ferris.
This was in the blog where Ferris was introduced.
He's a Federation Councilman ON the Starfleet Intelligence Committee. He's on the Starfleet Intelligence civilian oversight board meaning he has access to all this information.
“I think Ambassador Troi’s position on the Na’kuhl Crisis is well-documented, Mr. President… and, frankly, reckless.” Ferris paused briefly, ignoring a steely gaze from the Ambassador sitting next to him. “Sir, we need to be more vigilant when dealing with a potential security threat, especially considering what we’ve learned took place in the 29th century.”
Okeg frowned slightly at that. “He’s making the most of his recent appointment to the Starfleet Intelligence Committee,” he thought. “One more weapon in his arsenal.”
Then, someone seemed to have leaked the info to Councilman Ferris.
No one needed to leak anything to him.
Everyone knew the Na'Khul would go bad in the future because of what Archer encountered. They knew for 200 years before STO even began.
This part, however, is something I still don't get, because Walker seems rather surprised that Vosk was dealt with, by Archer, while at the same time, he advised the character back in Stormbound to listen to Archer's logs about the Na'kuhl (so he should know Vosk was dealt with).
That said, I haven't watched Storm Front, so maybe it's simply because Vosk never said his name to Archer, I dunno.
EDIT: OK, I just checked on Memory Alpha and Archer knows it is Vosk. And worse, it seems "Na'kuhl" was never mentioned on screen, merely from behind-the-scenes sources. I'm gonna re-check Stormbound and see what Walker exactly says about them and Archer.
Consider that Walker told us to check Archer's logs if we wanted to know about the Temporal Cold War. There were two seasons of Temporal Cold War arc and Vosk only showed up at the end. So if you consider all of Daniels' interactions as what we were supposed to check, then Vosk went back in time and was dealt with by Archer.
This part, however, is something I still don't get, because Walker seems rather surprised that Vosk was dealt with, by Archer, while at the same time, he advised the character back in Stormbound to listen to Archer's logs about the Na'kuhl (so he should know Vosk was dealt with).
You forget, time travel isn't a straight line.
The Walker we meet in Stormbound may be a version of Walker from the future past the one we meet in "Temporal Front"
That's an interesting theory that does make sense now I have replayed both Time & Tide and Stormbound.
The Walker from Time & Tide and forwards seems to be surprised time travelers are trying to alter the timeline and is concerned about the Na'kuhl actions as if he wasn't expecting this, while the Walker from Stormbound already knows about the Temporal Cold War and the Na'kuhl's role in it and even mentions that "you will know all about it soon enough".
Also, there is this little discussion with the temporal agent for the Delta Recruits of each faction, in Time & Tide, where, when you ask him "don't you remember me?" says he doesn't but that you may have met his future self, which could be foreshadowing.
Well that's not foreshadowing, but after shadowing. It's not our future, but his future. We already had met his future self.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I feel you. I couldn't tell you how many posts I've had just eaten by this board.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
All I can say is, after reading this long, belligerent, genocidal, rant, I can safely say that, had you been the one the Metrons had fight the Gorn captain to the death, you would have killed him in revenge for the destruction of the Cestus colony, instead of being the better person like Kirk was.
Okay, you asked for it. Military Ethics 101 is now in session.
In "Arena" Kirk fought with full intention to kill his opponent, because he's a soldier, and that's how a soldier fights. What made him the better person was that after he managed to incapacitate his enemy, he rightly refused to finish off his helpless opponent. If the Gorn had not been incapacitated by that cannon shot, then either Kirk would have killed him or the Gorn would have killed Kirk, or both.
That's how it works. You fight with lethal intent or you don't fight at all; there's no such thing as a half-measure, because half-measures are opportunities for your enemy. Even Picard understood that after the Borg knocked some sense into him. If you can't do that, you shouldn't have sworn the oath. Kirk got lucky and had the restraint to take advantage, because he believed that peace with the Gorn would save more lives in the long run. In the Iconian storyline, we get lucky and don't take advantage at all!
Since Somtaawkhar so effectively pointed out the moral flaws in that, I'll look at the technical.
There is no moral flaw other than the one postulated by people with no comprehension of the difference between a soldier and a civilian. A soldier accepts risk of his own life as part of his job. When he enters battle, he knows that he may be killed and that others will die at his hands. A civilian does not. They do not wake up each day and know their life could end in fire before sundown.
The Iconians made themselves soldiers when they took the decision to make war upon the Milky Way. That their deaths in battle means the end of their species is their problem, not ours. The leaders of a military are legitimate military targets as much as the grunts on the front line. But the overwhelming majority of the tens of billions of people dead on their orders were civilians who did not take that risk.
Red Matter. As Sela pointed out the Herald Sphere isn't their only Dyson's Sphere, it's just the one they were using to attack us. The largest Red matter detonations ever produced were insufficient to swallow a Dyson Sphere. And unlike the Enterprise, Narada, and Jellyfish, if the Iconians get caught in it, they don't need speed, they can just gate out of the area of effect. Lastly those spheres are composed of Carbon Neutronium, they may not be vulnerable to Red Matter at all. It would be an interesting science experiment, the irresistible force vs the indestructible object.
The Iconians have already mastered Omega Molecule manipulation. We'd likely end up doing vastly more damage to our own ability to traverse space while their gateway network is completely unfazed. At worst we would lock ourselves into out own systems in a temporary Pyrrhic victory, while the Iconians pop in at will to annihilate us with no way to even call for the help that could never arrive. At best the Iconians already know how to repair that damage and laugh at the attempt. At cataclysmic any such weapon would simply be gated to one of our home systems and exterminate most of our species.
The Dyson storyline suggests the Iconian mastery of omega particles isn't nearly as thorough as you think. The Jouret Sphere suffered a massive industrial accident at some point that ruined its sun.
The evidence says the Iconians have a handle on omega as much as real-life Earth has a handle on nuclear power. They can use it for power generation but they still have problems with the instability. In any case, all it takes is enough particles to eliminate subspace in the sphere's immediate vicinity. No subspace means no gates at all. No more war. Suicide mission? Yes. But you knew when you signed up that you might not be coming back.
As for gating away enemy fire? If they can use gateways as shields, why don't they? There's no evidence for that capability.
I actually had considered supernova'ing the Herald Star myself, if it connected then it would certainly have wiped out their forces and dramatically shift the tide of the war. Two problems with the plan. First the Iconians opening a gateway in front of the torpedo. Second the Herald sphere was densely packed enough with starships that it literally blotted out their sun. There's no clear shot without a hundred Heralds shooting the torpedo down.
Then you're not thinking about the other technologies in play. Remember Niven's law: Once a device exists in a continuity, it must continue to exist in all future permutations of that continuity. Per "House Pissant" cloaking devices work against the Iconians, and I mean story-wise, not game-mechanically. Or use that Krenim technology from the outpost and take ourselves out of phase. Or the temporal shielding from the Mary Sueperweapon.
Ah yes. Mine the peace offering. In which instance you would've killed two Iconians, leaving nine with nothing more to be gained from not exterminating us.
You weren't paying attention. Remember the part about "deadman switch"? The deal is, they surrender and start cleaning up their mess, including stopping T'ket, we disarm the bomb and they get to rebuild. They kill us, it goes off.
The Time in a Bottle pow-wow. The perfect opportunity to get into a twelve Iconian Boss Fight, when they can instantly summon an entire army and fleet to their aid to kill us and the remaining Krenim off because we showed our hand. Or they could just leave through their gateway transporter and let us waste our ammo.
Give me a break, the Krenim are perfectly safe. They're two seconds in the future and the Iconians can't time-travel, remember? As for the rest, it's as simple as setting a bunch of phasers to overload and dumping them back into the timestream at the last possible moment. No more Iconians. And if we die? We knew the risks going in.
You see we have no leverage since with no bargaining chip they simply kill us all. The fact that they lost the World Heart was the reason they became so hostile in the first place. It was despair. They thought they had lost their entire civilization and the ability to rebuild their world. We gave that back to them. The Iconians didn't need to conquer us, since from their perspective we were the initial aggressors (thanks Sela). This was their punitive action. By giving back the World Heart we cut off the cycle of hatred, revenge, and justice before it got any worse. Your method would have simply ensured that no one survived. There was no victory to be had there beyond what we got.
Their "punitive action" was against people two hundred thousand years removed from the crime. That's misplaced revenge; us fighting back is war, and a just one. And if you can't see how the Iconians' desperation to get the World Heart back means the World Heart is leverage, then you're an idiot. As it is, we didn't get peace. We got an incomplete ceasefire and the worst mass murderers in galactic history get off scot free.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
All I can say is, after reading this long, belligerent, genocidal, rant, I can safely say that, had you been the one the Metrons had fight the Gorn captain to the death, you would have killed him in revenge for the destruction of the Cestus colony, instead of being the better person like Kirk was.
Okay, you asked for it. Military Ethics 101 is now in session.
In "Arena" Kirk fought with full intention to kill his opponent, because he's a soldier, and that's how a soldier fights. What made him the better person was that after he managed to incapacitate his enemy, he rightly refused to finish off his helpless opponent. If the Gorn had not been incapacitated by that cannon shot, then either Kirk would have killed him or the Gorn would have killed Kirk, or both.
That's how it works. You fight with lethal intent or you don't fight at all; there's no such thing as a half-measure, because half-measures are opportunities for your enemy. Even Picard understood that after the Borg knocked some sense into him. If you can't do that, you shouldn't have sworn the oath. Kirk got lucky and had the restraint to take advantage, because he believed that peace with the Gorn would save more lives in the long run. In the Iconian storyline, we get lucky and don't take advantage at all!
I agree to a point.
Even soldiers have things they don't do to other soldiers.
Picard did not "understand" that after the Borg knocked some sense into him. Picard was psychologically wounded after he was assimilated, and succumbed to a revenge that would've shown him sacrificing his ship and crew in a vain attempt to keep fighting against the Borg when he should've withdrawn.
The situation with the Gorn was born of greater understanding. Talking with the Gorn. Once Kirk understood that the Gorn felt they were defending their territory from hostile invasion, just as he believed, that was when restraint came into his mind.
Since Somtaawkhar so effectively pointed out the moral flaws in that, I'll look at the technical.
There is no moral flaw other than the one postulated by people with no comprehension of the difference between a soldier and a civilian. A soldier accepts risk of his own life as part of his job. When he enters battle, he knows that he may be killed and that others will die at his hands. A civilian does not. They do not wake up each day and know their life could end in fire before sundown.
The Iconians made themselves soldiers when they took the decision to make war upon the Milky Way. That their deaths in battle means the end of their species is their problem, not ours. The leaders of a military are legitimate military targets as much as the grunts on the front line. But the overwhelming majority of the tens of billions of people dead on their orders were civilians who did not take that risk.
Legitimate targets and effective targets are not the same thing. In this instance decapitating the Iconian War machine just makes the Heralds finish wiping us out. You don't actually gain anything from killing off the Iconians.
Red Matter. As Sela pointed out the Herald Sphere isn't their only Dyson's Sphere, it's just the one they were using to attack us. The largest Red matter detonations ever produced were insufficient to swallow a Dyson Sphere. And unlike the Enterprise, Narada, and Jellyfish, if the Iconians get caught in it, they don't need speed, they can just gate out of the area of effect. Lastly those spheres are composed of Carbon Neutronium, they may not be vulnerable to Red Matter at all. It would be an interesting science experiment, the irresistible force vs the indestructible object.
The Iconians have already mastered Omega Molecule manipulation. We'd likely end up doing vastly more damage to our own ability to traverse space while their gateway network is completely unfazed. At worst we would lock ourselves into out own systems in a temporary Pyrrhic victory, while the Iconians pop in at will to annihilate us with no way to even call for the help that could never arrive. At best the Iconians already know how to repair that damage and laugh at the attempt. At cataclysmic any such weapon would simply be gated to one of our home systems and exterminate most of our species.
The Dyson storyline suggests the Iconian mastery of omega particles isn't nearly as thorough as you think. The Jouret Sphere suffered a massive industrial accident at some point that ruined its sun.
The evidence says the Iconians have a handle on omega as much as real-life Earth has a handle on nuclear power. They can use it for power generation but they still have problems with the instability. In any case, all it takes is enough particles to eliminate subspace in the sphere's immediate vicinity. No subspace means no gates at all. No more war. Suicide mission? Yes. But you knew when you signed up that you might not be coming back.
As for gating away enemy fire? If they can use gateways as shields, why don't they? There's no evidence for that capability.
The Solanae Sphere incident was a mistake of the Solanae, not the Iconians. It was explicitly stated that the Solanae were building the sphere for the Iconians. That industrial accident was some form of subspace disturbance that altered the spectrum of the star and altered the physiology of the Solanae themselves. However all of the Omega Particle apparatuses were still fully functional thousands of years later.
Furthermore the Herald and Jenolen Spheres function perfectly.
I had considered that the destruction of subspace may destroy their ability to use their gateways. But we don't know enough about gateway technology to be sure. In any event, it may end up being vastly worse. Detonating Omega in a sphere powered by Omega could cause a chain reaction. We may not be looking at destroying a sector, or a sector block, but a quadrant's worth. If it could propagate through the gateway network, the whole galaxy. There's lots of ways with Omega that we could easily destroy our own civilization.
A single molecule of Omega destroyed subspace throughout the Lantaru sector.
"Omega destroys subspace, a chain reaction involving a handful of molecules could devastate subspace throughout an entire quadrant. If that were to happen, warp travel would become impossible. Spacefaring civilization as we know it would cease to exist."
I actually had considered supernova'ing the Herald Star myself, if it connected then it would certainly have wiped out their forces and dramatically shift the tide of the war. Two problems with the plan. First the Iconians opening a gateway in front of the torpedo. Second the Herald sphere was densely packed enough with starships that it literally blotted out their sun. There's no clear shot without a hundred Heralds shooting the torpedo down.
Then you're not thinking about the other technologies in play. Remember Niven's law: Once a device exists in a continuity, it must continue to exist in all future permutations of that continuity. Per "House Pissant" cloaking devices work against the Iconians, and I mean story-wise, not game-mechanically. Or use that Krenim technology from the outpost and take ourselves out of phase. Or the temporal shielding from the Mary Sueperweapon.
Well we don't make it a practice of beaming torpedoes on to starships or beaming components out of starships in combat. As a regular thing. It could be that the energy requirement for a gate shield while absolute wouldn't be a worthwhile gain over a shield. One thing that the star has that a ship doesn't is it's a completely stationary object surrounded by a giant teleportation machine.
And as I said, if it isn't possible, there are still thousands of ships ready to shoot it down. If push comes to shove they could also Gate the star out of the sphere.
Temporal phased weapons make perfect sense...but don't presume that the Iconian's physiological weakness is an absolute weakness. The Iconians simply can't travel through time themselves. That doesn't mean that they can conceive of time travel or create technology that would defend against it. Note that as soon as we showed up on Ancient Iconia, M'tara's Herald greeter said, "hey you guys are out of temporal phase what happened?" I would imagine that having brains made of chronitons gives them a sensitivity and insight into temporal technology instead of just making sure they're locked into whatever time frame they exist in.
Ah yes. Mine the peace offering. In which instance you would've killed two Iconians, leaving nine with nothing more to be gained from not exterminating us.
You weren't paying attention. Remember the part about "deadman switch"? The deal is, they surrender and start cleaning up their mess, including stopping T'ket, we disarm the bomb and they get to rebuild. They kill us, it goes off.
It goes off they resume slaughtering us.
I was paying attention and it's a useless idea. The Iconians are much more technologically advanced than us. If we give them the World Heart then they can disarm it. If we don't then the war becomes about taking it. From the people who can simply gateway transport us to their presence at will.
If the World Heart is destroyed we're back to square one. Losing a war badly. That's the problem with a hostage situation. You can't kill the hostage.
The Time in a Bottle pow-wow. The perfect opportunity to get into a twelve Iconian Boss Fight, when they can instantly summon an entire army and fleet to their aid to kill us and the remaining Krenim off because we showed our hand. Or they could just leave through their gateway transporter and let us waste our ammo.
Give me a break, the Krenim are perfectly safe. They're two seconds in the future and the Iconians can't time-travel, remember? As for the rest, it's as simple as setting a bunch of phasers to overload and dumping them back into the timestream at the last possible moment. No more Iconians. And if we die? We knew the risks going in.
Again, they were safe because they were concealed. If the Iconians knew that they were there then if they couldn't figure a way to adjust their weapons to fire in their temporal phase, they could just nuke their star and destroy the system three seconds in to the future.
Overloading phasers? The very loud things that take a second to power up? More than enough time for them to gate out. That said I'm not sure an overloading phaser would actually break through their personal shields...or kill them.
I'm not concerned with dying in a war, like you say, it's a known risk. Although it's not actually my job to die for my "country".
But I refuse to die in a fruitless effort, unnecessarily, where I don't even advance the cause a step forward.
You see we have no leverage since with no bargaining chip they simply kill us all. The fact that they lost the World Heart was the reason they became so hostile in the first place. It was despair. They thought they had lost their entire civilization and the ability to rebuild their world. We gave that back to them. The Iconians didn't need to conquer us, since from their perspective we were the initial aggressors (thanks Sela). This was their punitive action. By giving back the World Heart we cut off the cycle of hatred, revenge, and justice before it got any worse. Your method would have simply ensured that no one survived. There was no victory to be had there beyond what we got.
Their "punitive action" was against people two hundred thousand years removed from the crime. That's misplaced revenge; us fighting back is war, and a just one. And if you can't see how the Iconians' desperation to get the World Heart back means the World Heart is leverage, then you're an idiot. As it is, we didn't get peace. We got an incomplete ceasefire and the worst mass murderers in galactic history get off scot free.
No. Their punitive action was against Sela and her allies. Remember they were attacked by a time traveling Romulan. They knew exactly who they were trying to annihilate. The party that included a Starfleet officer, a Klingon Captain, and a Romulan Empress.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Here's the thing.... while demanding reparations sounds nice.... going overboard would mean the war never ends. Thus negating any advantage gained.
At the very least I want their psycho sister T'ket stopped so we have an actual end to the war. But no, the ceasefire only covers the other ten, and with us fought out T'ket has all the forces she needs to keep at her quest for revenge.
Here's more leverage. We have Sela. As part of the peace terms, they can have the one person here who actually did aggress against the Iconians as their personal chew toy. And it's a win-win: Her Royal Sociopathy is out of our hair for good and faces a measure of karma for the people in the present she tortured and murdered as a dictator.
No, I don't care if she expresses remorse in the mission. Her own words in the last Blog War blog say she doesn't feel it, nor would I expect that of a clinical sociopath like her. She's not going to stop being a narcissistic sociopath any more than I can get rid of my autism.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Here's the thing.... while demanding reparations sounds nice.... going overboard would mean the war never ends. Thus negating any advantage gained.
At the very least I want their psycho sister T'ket stopped so we have an actual end to the war. But no, the ceasefire only covers the other ten, and with us fought out T'ket has all the forces she needs to keep at her quest for revenge.
And despite T'Ket being apparently a potential loose cannons, so far we've seen no new activity on this front. T'Ket might actually not be able to continue the war on her own. Maybe her sisters reminded her of her responsibilities and she is kept busy at securing and helping restore the Iconian homeworld.
The thing to understand is that we didn't have the Iconians at our mercy or anything. We accept their terms, or the war continues. The World Heart is the reason they were willing to end the war, but it was also part of the reason they started it. Destroying it just means going back to a path the Iconians already settled for millenia now. It means we still die. The Iconians already accepted the loss of the World Heart. But we have yet to accept our destruction.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Here's the thing.... while demanding reparations sounds nice.... going overboard would mean the war never ends. Thus negating any advantage gained.
At the very least I want their psycho sister T'ket stopped so we have an actual end to the war. But no, the ceasefire only covers the other ten, and with us fought out T'ket has all the forces she needs to keep at her quest for revenge.
And despite T'Ket being apparently a potential loose cannons, so far we've seen no new activity on this front. T'Ket might actually not be able to continue the war on her own. Maybe her sisters reminded her of her responsibilities and she is kept busy at securing and helping restore the Iconian homeworld.
It's just a little sequel hook. Maybe she'll do something at some point, maybe not. The devs just reserved the ability of doing something Iconian-related in the future, without having dumb people complaining about it.
To OP, to give the Na'kuhl back their star is not the solution of problem, the Tholians are taking revenge for something that happens in the future. It sounds like nonsence but STO writers like it. I hate it.
They knew exactly who they were trying to annihilate. The party that included a Starfleet officer, a Klingon Captain, and a Romulan Empress.
Player's not necessarily a Starfleet officer.
So you're saying the possibility is a Klingon, a Romulan and any other myriad number of species except those that would be Starfleet Officer. This is true.
But let's be honest, what are the chances that canonically the third wasn't a Starfleet officer?
Then again the Republic certainly didn't have a representative.
Here's the thing.... while demanding reparations sounds nice.... going overboard would mean the war never ends. Thus negating any advantage gained.
At the very least I want their psycho sister T'ket stopped so we have an actual end to the war. But no, the ceasefire only covers the other ten, and with us fought out T'ket has all the forces she needs to keep at her quest for revenge.
And despite T'Ket being apparently a potential loose cannons, so far we've seen no new activity on this front. T'Ket might actually not be able to continue the war on her own. Maybe her sisters reminded her of her responsibilities and she is kept busy at securing and helping restore the Iconian homeworld.
It's just a little sequel hook. Maybe she'll do something at some point, maybe not. The devs just reserved the ability of doing something Iconian-related in the future, without having dumb people complaining about it.
It also allows the Iconian based queues to still have reason to exist, though the idea that after New Dawn they would shut down is actually fairly compelling. A lot more exclusive than not having previous years ships available in winter and summer.
Yeah, T'Ket knows her sisters won't fight her directly, but if she goes too far they might give the Alliance the means to do so.
L'Mirren is smart like that.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Comments
"Na... it's kuhl."
From, In the Purview of the Diplomats
now... during the FE our captain was PRECISELY told, by Walker, not to share what happened here.... sooo... HOW DID THE FEDS get this information without a blabbermouth from that future "sharing?"
Hmmm. That is true. At least it wouldn't be the Delta Alliance learning the lesson again.
"Those who do not heed history are doomed to repeat it." "Those who do heed history are doomed to watch others repeat it."
I think that's how all Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order bedtime stories end. I know Enabran Tain told at least...three of those to a young Elim.
Since Somtaawkhar so effectively pointed out the moral flaws in that, I'll look at the technical.
Red Matter. As Sela pointed out the Herald Sphere isn't their only Dyson's Sphere, it's just the one they were using to attack us. The largest Red matter detonations ever produced were insufficient to swallow a Dyson Sphere. And unlike the Enterprise, Narada, and Jellyfish, if the Iconians get caught in it, they don't need speed, they can just gate out of the area of effect. Lastly those spheres are composed of Carbon Neutronium, they may not be vulnerable to Red Matter at all. It would be an interesting science experiment, the irresistible force vs the indestructible object.
The Iconians have already mastered Omega Molecule manipulation. We'd likely end up doing vastly more damage to our own ability to traverse space while their gateway network is completely unfazed. At worst we would lock ourselves into out own systems in a temporary Pyrrhic victory, while the Iconians pop in at will to annihilate us with no way to even call for the help that could never arrive. At best the Iconians already know how to repair that damage and laugh at the attempt. At cataclysmic any such weapon would simply be gated to one of our home systems and exterminate most of our species.
I actually had considered supernova'ing the Herald Star myself, if it connected then it would certainly have wiped out their forces and dramatically shift the tide of the war. Two problems with the plan. First the Iconians opening a gateway in front of the torpedo. Second the Herald sphere was densely packed enough with starships that it literally blotted out their sun. There's no clear shot without a hundred Heralds shooting the torpedo down.
Ah yes. Mine the peace offering. In which instance you would've killed two Iconians, leaving nine with nothing more to be gained from not exterminating us.
The Time in a Bottle pow-wow. The perfect opportunity to get into a twelve Iconian Boss Fight, when they can instantly summon an entire army and fleet to their aid to kill us and the remaining Krenim off because we showed our hand. Or they could just leave through their gateway transporter and let us waste our ammo.
You see we have no leverage since with no bargaining chip they simply kill us all. The fact that they lost the World Heart was the reason they became so hostile in the first place. It was despair. They thought they had lost their entire civilization and the ability to rebuild their world. We gave that back to them. The Iconians didn't need to conquer us, since from their perspective we were the initial aggressors (thanks Sela). This was their punitive action. By giving back the World Heart we cut off the cycle of hatred, revenge, and justice before it got any worse. Your method would have simply ensured that no one survived. There was no victory to be had there beyond what we got.
From Memory Alpha
I.E. DONT TALK ABOUT THE FUTURE!
~Now ... Walker... is clearly a bluegill infested puppet of T'Ket's from the future.
We're changing history because we told! ... we're most likely the reason for the attack.
The Klingons and Romulans are not back to stop trusting or willing to be very antagonistic towards the Federation because in the future, they become part of it. Try to tell a present Klingon "Oh, by the way, you and the Romulans will join us soon in the Federation" and try not to be seriously maimed afterwards. Same with the Breen and Tholians, where in the future, they are somehow willing to join the Union instead of continuing meddling with everyone for their own motivations/pleasure.
Really, from what we have, the only thing we must have told them is: "the Accords were interrupted by what Walker says was a timeline disruption somewhere. And that's terrible. Noye was involved with the Sphere Builders (and that's even more terrible) and the Na'kuhl tried to destroy a mean to prevent more temporal disruptions."
Then, someone seemed to have leaked the info to Councilman Ferris.
That said, I haven't watched Storm Front, so maybe it's simply because Vosk never said his name to Archer, I dunno.
EDIT: OK, I just checked on Memory Alpha and Archer knows it is Vosk. And worse, it seems "Na'kuhl" was never mentioned on screen, merely from behind-the-scenes sources. I'm gonna re-check Stormbound and see what Walker exactly says about them and Archer.
It seems unlikely that the Federation conquered the Klingons (both from the view of the Federation and from the view of a Klingon or Romulan patriot
If you would tell a US Texan citizen from the 70s that in 200 years, he'd be member of the United Earth and the US or Texas weren't a political entity anymore, would he get violent over it?
The Walker from Time & Tide and forwards seems to be surprised time travelers are trying to alter the timeline and is concerned about the Na'kuhl actions as if he wasn't expecting this, while the Walker from Stormbound already knows about the Temporal Cold War and the Na'kuhl's role in it and even mentions that "you will know all about it soon enough".
Also, there is this little discussion with the temporal agent for the Delta Recruits of each faction, in Time & Tide, where, when you ask him "don't you remember me?" says he doesn't but that you may have met his future self, which could be foreshadowing.
This was in the blog where Ferris was introduced.
He's a Federation Councilman ON the Starfleet Intelligence Committee. He's on the Starfleet Intelligence civilian oversight board meaning he has access to all this information.
Consider that Walker told us to check Archer's logs if we wanted to know about the Temporal Cold War. There were two seasons of Temporal Cold War arc and Vosk only showed up at the end. So if you consider all of Daniels' interactions as what we were supposed to check, then Vosk went back in time and was dealt with by Archer.
Well that's not foreshadowing, but after shadowing. It's not our future, but his future. We already had met his future self.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I feel you. I couldn't tell you how many posts I've had just eaten by this board.
In "Arena" Kirk fought with full intention to kill his opponent, because he's a soldier, and that's how a soldier fights. What made him the better person was that after he managed to incapacitate his enemy, he rightly refused to finish off his helpless opponent. If the Gorn had not been incapacitated by that cannon shot, then either Kirk would have killed him or the Gorn would have killed Kirk, or both.
That's how it works. You fight with lethal intent or you don't fight at all; there's no such thing as a half-measure, because half-measures are opportunities for your enemy. Even Picard understood that after the Borg knocked some sense into him. If you can't do that, you shouldn't have sworn the oath. Kirk got lucky and had the restraint to take advantage, because he believed that peace with the Gorn would save more lives in the long run. In the Iconian storyline, we get lucky and don't take advantage at all!
There is no moral flaw other than the one postulated by people with no comprehension of the difference between a soldier and a civilian. A soldier accepts risk of his own life as part of his job. When he enters battle, he knows that he may be killed and that others will die at his hands. A civilian does not. They do not wake up each day and know their life could end in fire before sundown.
The Iconians made themselves soldiers when they took the decision to make war upon the Milky Way. That their deaths in battle means the end of their species is their problem, not ours. The leaders of a military are legitimate military targets as much as the grunts on the front line. But the overwhelming majority of the tens of billions of people dead on their orders were civilians who did not take that risk.
Accepted.
The Dyson storyline suggests the Iconian mastery of omega particles isn't nearly as thorough as you think. The Jouret Sphere suffered a massive industrial accident at some point that ruined its sun.
The evidence says the Iconians have a handle on omega as much as real-life Earth has a handle on nuclear power. They can use it for power generation but they still have problems with the instability. In any case, all it takes is enough particles to eliminate subspace in the sphere's immediate vicinity. No subspace means no gates at all. No more war. Suicide mission? Yes. But you knew when you signed up that you might not be coming back.
As for gating away enemy fire? If they can use gateways as shields, why don't they? There's no evidence for that capability.
Then you're not thinking about the other technologies in play. Remember Niven's law: Once a device exists in a continuity, it must continue to exist in all future permutations of that continuity. Per "House Pissant" cloaking devices work against the Iconians, and I mean story-wise, not game-mechanically. Or use that Krenim technology from the outpost and take ourselves out of phase. Or the temporal shielding from the Mary Sueperweapon.
You weren't paying attention. Remember the part about "deadman switch"? The deal is, they surrender and start cleaning up their mess, including stopping T'ket, we disarm the bomb and they get to rebuild. They kill us, it goes off.
Give me a break, the Krenim are perfectly safe. They're two seconds in the future and the Iconians can't time-travel, remember? As for the rest, it's as simple as setting a bunch of phasers to overload and dumping them back into the timestream at the last possible moment. No more Iconians. And if we die? We knew the risks going in.
Their "punitive action" was against people two hundred thousand years removed from the crime. That's misplaced revenge; us fighting back is war, and a just one. And if you can't see how the Iconians' desperation to get the World Heart back means the World Heart is leverage, then you're an idiot. As it is, we didn't get peace. We got an incomplete ceasefire and the worst mass murderers in galactic history get off scot free.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
I agree to a point.
Even soldiers have things they don't do to other soldiers.
Picard did not "understand" that after the Borg knocked some sense into him. Picard was psychologically wounded after he was assimilated, and succumbed to a revenge that would've shown him sacrificing his ship and crew in a vain attempt to keep fighting against the Borg when he should've withdrawn.
The situation with the Gorn was born of greater understanding. Talking with the Gorn. Once Kirk understood that the Gorn felt they were defending their territory from hostile invasion, just as he believed, that was when restraint came into his mind.
Legitimate targets and effective targets are not the same thing. In this instance decapitating the Iconian War machine just makes the Heralds finish wiping us out. You don't actually gain anything from killing off the Iconians.
The Solanae Sphere incident was a mistake of the Solanae, not the Iconians. It was explicitly stated that the Solanae were building the sphere for the Iconians. That industrial accident was some form of subspace disturbance that altered the spectrum of the star and altered the physiology of the Solanae themselves. However all of the Omega Particle apparatuses were still fully functional thousands of years later.
Furthermore the Herald and Jenolen Spheres function perfectly.
I had considered that the destruction of subspace may destroy their ability to use their gateways. But we don't know enough about gateway technology to be sure. In any event, it may end up being vastly worse. Detonating Omega in a sphere powered by Omega could cause a chain reaction. We may not be looking at destroying a sector, or a sector block, but a quadrant's worth. If it could propagate through the gateway network, the whole galaxy. There's lots of ways with Omega that we could easily destroy our own civilization.
A single molecule of Omega destroyed subspace throughout the Lantaru sector.
It's an extremely high price to pay for survival.
Well we don't make it a practice of beaming torpedoes on to starships or beaming components out of starships in combat. As a regular thing. It could be that the energy requirement for a gate shield while absolute wouldn't be a worthwhile gain over a shield. One thing that the star has that a ship doesn't is it's a completely stationary object surrounded by a giant teleportation machine.
And as I said, if it isn't possible, there are still thousands of ships ready to shoot it down. If push comes to shove they could also Gate the star out of the sphere.
Temporal phased weapons make perfect sense...but don't presume that the Iconian's physiological weakness is an absolute weakness. The Iconians simply can't travel through time themselves. That doesn't mean that they can conceive of time travel or create technology that would defend against it. Note that as soon as we showed up on Ancient Iconia, M'tara's Herald greeter said, "hey you guys are out of temporal phase what happened?" I would imagine that having brains made of chronitons gives them a sensitivity and insight into temporal technology instead of just making sure they're locked into whatever time frame they exist in.
It goes off they resume slaughtering us.
I was paying attention and it's a useless idea. The Iconians are much more technologically advanced than us. If we give them the World Heart then they can disarm it. If we don't then the war becomes about taking it. From the people who can simply gateway transport us to their presence at will.
If the World Heart is destroyed we're back to square one. Losing a war badly. That's the problem with a hostage situation. You can't kill the hostage.
Again, they were safe because they were concealed. If the Iconians knew that they were there then if they couldn't figure a way to adjust their weapons to fire in their temporal phase, they could just nuke their star and destroy the system three seconds in to the future.
Overloading phasers? The very loud things that take a second to power up? More than enough time for them to gate out. That said I'm not sure an overloading phaser would actually break through their personal shields...or kill them.
I'm not concerned with dying in a war, like you say, it's a known risk. Although it's not actually my job to die for my "country".
But I refuse to die in a fruitless effort, unnecessarily, where I don't even advance the cause a step forward.
No. Their punitive action was against Sela and her allies. Remember they were attacked by a time traveling Romulan. They knew exactly who they were trying to annihilate. The party that included a Starfleet officer, a Klingon Captain, and a Romulan Empress.
Here's more leverage. We have Sela. As part of the peace terms, they can have the one person here who actually did aggress against the Iconians as their personal chew toy. And it's a win-win: Her Royal Sociopathy is out of our hair for good and faces a measure of karma for the people in the present she tortured and murdered as a dictator.
No, I don't care if she expresses remorse in the mission. Her own words in the last Blog War blog say she doesn't feel it, nor would I expect that of a clinical sociopath like her. She's not going to stop being a narcissistic sociopath any more than I can get rid of my autism.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Player's not necessarily a Starfleet officer.
And despite T'Ket being apparently a potential loose cannons, so far we've seen no new activity on this front. T'Ket might actually not be able to continue the war on her own. Maybe her sisters reminded her of her responsibilities and she is kept busy at securing and helping restore the Iconian homeworld.
The thing to understand is that we didn't have the Iconians at our mercy or anything. We accept their terms, or the war continues. The World Heart is the reason they were willing to end the war, but it was also part of the reason they started it. Destroying it just means going back to a path the Iconians already settled for millenia now. It means we still die. The Iconians already accepted the loss of the World Heart. But we have yet to accept our destruction.
My character Tsin'xing
So you're saying the possibility is a Klingon, a Romulan and any other myriad number of species except those that would be Starfleet Officer. This is true.
But let's be honest, what are the chances that canonically the third wasn't a Starfleet officer?
Then again the Republic certainly didn't have a representative.
It also allows the Iconian based queues to still have reason to exist, though the idea that after New Dawn they would shut down is actually fairly compelling. A lot more exclusive than not having previous years ships available in winter and summer.
I do like your thinking.
L'Mirren is smart like that.