So just to be clear, if someone can stack 100% shield penetration in a pvp setting, hardness does not change that at all? It seems that will become the new normal, and sci ships which rely on shields to protect them will be left in the dust vs pilot escorts with multiple immunities, and cruisers with enough hull and resistances able to absorb damage directly to hull?
It's very hard to tank with shields being bypassed completely, even on a cruiser.
Sorry haven't read the replies since my last post. But I think I was really wrong about 5% crtd being better. 1% Crth is actually probably going to be better in most cases. But there is a lot of things that influence this so I am nowhere near 100% sure. But it actually looks reasonably balanced 1% crth vs 5% crtd. Or maybe not, I would have to do some maths and I am not 100% sure if the maths I am doing corresponds with the game. Sorry about that. Also I haven't looked into the control and exotic damage and drain things (esp. the electrical damage and damage resistance debuff). Also I haven't looked into the 3 super abilities.
Also in PvP for spike damage favors crtd more I think (with activatable abilities that only influence crth/crtd for a time). Though perhaps those abilities balance things out really well as they (usually, if not always) affect both crtd and crth. I would definitely be going crth though if not tac and with ships with low amounts of tac console slots (I think, my math is reasonably likely to be wrong).
In other news, I logged in with a Klingon captain and while the larger icons that pop up when you mouse over a node were all suitably Klingon (as far as I could tell), some of the nodes themselves still had the small Federation icons. I can do a node-by-node check & report if you like but I suspect your UI artist is gonna have to go over it all again anyway just to be safe.
I have a question. I dont understand the description of Shield Reneneration skill and it is quite confusing. Especially for new players. (btw I play STO for years)
Description (tooltip):
This increases the amount of shields that are passively regenerated on a continuou basis.
Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds, regardless of your current Shield Subystem Power level.
(Note: ...)
... + 50 Shield regeneration ...
Total Skill Bonus = +50
Total Additional Shield Regeneration = +5% per 6 second
Possible conclusions:
A ) Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds -> Ok then when I invest 3 points (of 46) to this skill I will get 3%
B ) Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds -> So why do I get 5% with 50 skill points in this skill? (level 1)
C ) Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds ->
Sounds great: With 0 point in this skill I have 7550 SHP (tooltip of shield) 11014 SHP (Ship stats) and 187,6 shield per 6 second. So, with 10% (3 skill points) I will get another 10% of max shield capacity -> 755 respectively 1104 Shield per 6 second. Awesome. It's 400-600% bonus!!!
D ) Only 5%, resp. 10% increase of passive regeneration? -> 187,6 + 10% ??? ... Pff -> Waste of skill points
----sorry for little trolling----
I think that this revamp changed clothes, but inside remained same... (Of course it remained same. The game is based on mods of equipment etc, so It is not possible to change the logic.
In old-current system you invest 3*18 and know, you have 54 poins of skill -> which means something
And ALL SKILLS HAVE THE SAME principles 18,18,18,10,10,10,5,5,5
In new system you invest 3x1 point which means 50+35+15 or 60+40 or not even skill -> which means something...
And now imagine the Inspirational leader trait. What is the skill and what it is not? (All have the same description: Space skill. For example Full Impulse Energy shunt is not a skill (with 50+35+15) and still have description: "This skill provides..."
It really does not make things easier to understand...
---I know, you needed bigger change, because currect system limited you in developing new content. And inside I am glad for all new content and changes. I have to say, that all changes done since season 10 were amazing and thank you for that---
I'm loving the Skill/Skill Tree changes for my Tactical Captains. I gain new Skills to invest in, freebie Skills that I'd already been investing in to improve my Captain Abilities, and generally more things to blow stuff up with. Despite the changes to Training Manual requirements it feels like a nice improvement overall. Even the Tactical Unlocks feel more powerful than the other Professions, though I'd agree with putting Threat Control back as a Tactical Unlock, paired with Hangar Pet Damage... it just fits the Tactical theme better (pairing a choice between improved ally damage or personal flexibility in tactics).
My Science Captains are also looking pretty good. The consolidation of many of the Science Skills frees up a decent amount of space in my builds for Science-focused characters, and allows me to make better use of secondary abilities that simply weren't effective enough to build around. I'm on the fence as to overall performance changes, but a less extreme slope for the Science Skills does make it easier on you guys to balance content in the long run... maybe if the same concept had been applied to weapon damage (higher baseline values and less extreme scaling) it'd feel less like Science was specifically getting nerfed.
Looking at Control Amplification and Drain Infection, though, I think these need a bit of a revision. Rather than triggering once per ability per 5 secs, and lasting 5 secs, is it possible to have them behave for Control/Drain abilities like Attack Pattern Beta behaves for weapons? What I mean is that they could re-apply as long as the target is exposed to an appropriate effect, and last for 5 secs after that effect ends, while being limited to 1 stack per source (in other words, per captain). With the corrections to strengthened strengths and resistable resists this shouldn't make for anything too crazy, so long as Control Amplification is subject to the same diminishing returns as other DRM debuffs. It would make them useful, though.
Engineers still feel like they're getting the short end of the Revamp stick... or the long end... whatever. For a Profession built around defenses and tanking, increases in Shield Penetration, division of Hull Restoration and Damage Control (Engineering Fleet needs to have the description updated to say "Damage Control" rather than "Hull Regeneration", btw), etc. make the Skill Revamp feel a bit punitive towards Engineers. The lack of any new shinies for us to enjoy Engineering-wise puts a bit of a damper on the whole thing as well, since even the Engineering Ultimate has no real correlation to with the Profession or the Skills.
Not too happy about the lack of scaling to the duration for EPS Manifold Efficiency; the removal of all scaling makes the ability worse than it was before for any Engineer that actually built to use it... in other words the only folks that really cared about the ability in the first place. Given that I'm the one that asked about EPS Manifold Efficiency/Batteries Expertise for the Livestream Q&A, I apologize to any fellow Engineers that actually built for the ability. I'm still hoping the lack of scaling is a bug (since the Patch Notes didn't actually say "and no longer scales with Battery Expetise" and the Trait description still claims that "The duration of these subsystem power boosts is based on your Batteries skill."), but if it's intentional I'd like to suggest an alternative:
+ Put the duration back to 10 secs, but...
+ Put the scaling back, and...
+ Give the Batteries Skill/Batteries Expertise the "Willpower treatment" (by granting +1/level up to 50, with the Unlock granting the other +50).
That would still remove the feeling of being reliant upon the Unlock while also still enabling Engineers to properly invest in their abilities as is currently possible on Holodeck. I'd argue for the "Attack Patterns treatment" (and just give our Engineers a fully effective ability at no cost) instead, but only our Tactical Captains usually get that much of a free benefit.
Oh, and the Red Matter Capacitor is bugged (both on Holodeck and Tribble); it claims to trigger EPS Manifold Efficiency, but that is no longer the case... not sure when that happened since on Holodeck I usually maintain uptime with EP2x.
I'm also not really a fan having to choose between Treat Control and Batteries on the Engineering Unlock; Threat Control itself more logically applies to the Tactical line, and Batteries improves our Capacitors, Consumables, Devices, and (according to the description currently on Tribble, so hopefully...) EPS Manifold Efficiency. I do like the idea of Batteries vs Hangar Health in the Engineering Unlocks (as with Threat Control vs Hangar Weaponry in the Tactical Unlocks), both from a thematic and build perspective.
I did see that you've added Aux2Batt III; that's a nice thing to find, but I have to say that placing an ability with debatable value anywhere near the beginning of the Engineering Line is just... meh. Let's be honest here: the only reason to run Aux2Batt at all is to proc Technicians, since the ability itself is pyrrhic in nature. Seriously, check your metrics for the number of captains using Aux2Batt without Technicians slotted. Aux2ID and Aux2SIF are both far more useful, and besides... Aux2Batt is kind of the opposite of EP2Aux, so why not put Aux2Batt out at the same 17 abilities Unlock point?
Welp, there's my wall-o-feedback based on my most recent journey to Tribble; I'll give another assessment if/when I get another chance to do dip my toes in over there before the 12th.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Like I said in a previous revamp thread, the problem with the skill tree is the fairly arbitrary distribution of skills layered into level unlocks. Because the specialization tree system is being used there are always going to be people who do not like the way the skills/abilities are ordered. A much better system would be to allow people to choose whatever skills they want from the start and remove the level unlock system entirely.
On another note, I like that battery expertise and threat control abilities can be obtain early, but I do not like that you have to choose between one or the other. Both skills can be used in any build, why make people choose between two very good skills when they can be mixed with some more mediocre ones. As a sci captain the minus threat would be great for managing aggro especially since shield tanking in advanced/elite stfs isn't as good as escort speed tanking or cruiser hull tanking due to too many npc powers that can knock your shields off line or drain them completely in a few secs.
I think the shield penetration issue is not just a PvP thing, though it will have hte most notable effect there. But even in PvE it'S a bit silly if NPC shields are mostly ignored.
I know that as a Science Vessel Captain, until the invention of the Quantum Phase Torpedoes, most enemies where cooked in their shields. The QPT tends to mean they also lose a lot of shields now... But I don't think that significantly improves my time to kill. (But it feels great.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Possible conclusions:
A ) Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds -> Ok then when I invest 3 points (of 46) to this skill I will get 3%
B ) Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds -> So why do I get 5% with 50 skill points in this skill? (level 1)
C ) Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds ->
Sounds great: With 0 point in this skill I have 7550 SHP (tooltip of shield) 11014 SHP (Ship stats) and 187,6 shield per 6 second. So, with 10% (3 skill points) I will get another 10% of max shield capacity -> 755 respectively 1104 Shield per 6 second. Awesome. It's 400-600% bonus!!!
D ) Only 5%, resp. 10% increase of passive regeneration? -> 187,6 + 10% ??? ... Pff -> Waste of skill points
I was curious which one is right.
And result? None of them :-)
Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit - Shield modifier 1 (At least it should be)
common shield array MK IX - It should have also Shield modifier 1
No other gear mounted
All traits empty (even ground, etc)
No Boffs/Doffs
Sol system (just next ESD)
Calculation based on regeneration
Base regeneration without any skills:127,5 per 6 sec
5% bonus reg (1 skill point spent): 153 per 6 sec ---> 20% bonus
8,5% bonus reg (2 skill point spent): 170,8 per 6 sec --> 33,96% bonus (rounded to 34%)
10% bonus reg (3 skill point spent):178,5 per 6 sec --> 40% bonus
Calculation based on Max shield HP
Base Max shield HP 5100
127,5 = 2,5% of 5100
1. skill point -> 25,5 = 0,0050 of 5100 (0,5% bonus)
2. skill point -> 43,3 = 0,0085 of 5100 (0,85% bonus)
3. skill point -> 51 = 0,0100 of 5100 (1% bonus)
So bonus is not 10% of max shield, but 1% of max shield...
There is a bug in calculation or in wrong description.... I think that same problem is on Damage control skill.
Resume: In this way of calculation-> This skill will be good (maybe) for covariant shield with cap modifiers but worthless for regenerative shields. But I dont know if regenerating modifiers stacks of multiplies
I think that skill revamp is ideal opportunity to unify multiplicator description.
For example:
Damage control skill -> Total regeneration skill bonus 0.05 (It means 5 %)
Shield regeneration skill -> Total regeneration skill bonus 5%
Feedback Pulse skill -> Reflect up to 0.31 incoming energy (What does it mean?) 31% percent? 0.31 percent?
Reverse shield polarity -> converts 2% of incoming energy damage (But I think it is 200%, because gives me instant shield healing)
In other news, I logged in with a Klingon captain and while the larger icons that pop up when you mouse over a node were all suitably Klingon (as far as I could tell), some of the nodes themselves still had the small Federation icons. I can do a node-by-node check & report if you like but I suspect your UI artist is gonna have to go over it all again anyway just to be safe.
I saw this on the last patch....on both KDF and Rom icons.
Is this something that has to go in the Tribble Bug thread? I will double check both later this morning...and write one.
Or whoever gets to it.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
(say you have a resilient shield array, which changes the distribution to 5% hull bleedthrough, 95% shield absorption)
My friend tells me they are changing the tool tip on Resilient Shields to reflect more closely what it actually does.
I believe it works closer to: 5% to Hull, 95% to Shields with 5% knocked off ENERGY damage. I am not sure if that means Resilient Shields are different because they have an innate "Shield Hardness" attached to them or if it is a different type of damage resistance named "resilience".
Check that tool tip on Tribble.
Does anyone know what happens to Kinetic damage against "Shield Hardness"...is that treated differently? (Like, kinetic damage needs MORE of that) Because I know that when kinetic damage hits those Resilient shields....doesn't get that 5% knocked off. At least, that is how I was reading it on Reddit.
(Still haven't had time to get on Tribble to look at anything...shoot, haven't had time to play on Holodeck ).
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I think the shield penetration issue is not just a PvP thing, though it will have hte most notable effect there. But even in PvE it'S a bit silly if NPC shields are mostly ignored.
I know that as a Science Vessel Captain, until the invention of the Quantum Phase Torpedoes, most enemies where cooked in their shields. The QPT tends to mean they also lose a lot of shields now... But I don't think that significantly improves my time to kill. (But it feels great.)
Thanks for reminding me that I have to test the QPhase to see if the drain on the main target is fixed under HY, and if the drains are still consistent when spec'd for it.
(say you have a resilient shield array, which changes the distribution to 5% hull bleedthrough, 95% shield absorption)
My friend tells me they are changing the tool tip on Resilient Shields to reflect more closely what it actually does.
I believe it works closer to: 5% to Hull, 95% to Shields with 5% knocked off ENERGY damage. I am not sure if that means Resilient Shields are different because they have an innate "Shield Hardness" attached to them or if it is a different type of damage resistance named "resilience".
Check that tool tip on Tribble.
Does anyone know what happens to Kinetic damage against "Shield Hardness"...is that treated differently? (Like, kinetic damage needs MORE of that) Because I know that when kinetic damage hits those Resilient shields....doesn't get that 5% knocked off. At least, that is how I was reading it on Reddit.
(Still haven't had time to get on Tribble to look at anything...shoot, haven't had time to play on Holodeck ).
I can say that kinetics hitting shields do significantly reduced damage TO shields before hardness is factored in. I expected Resil shields to toss 5% of the damage into the aether AFTER actual shield damage is calculated. I guess that's one more thing to add to the test....
I was going to post a video that acurately illustrates the current status of shields in the game but I think trendy would frown on pornography on her forums.
So just to be clear, if someone can stack 100% shield penetration in a pvp setting, hardness does not change that at all? It seems that will become the new normal, and sci ships which rely on shields to protect them will be left in the dust vs pilot escorts with multiple immunities, and cruisers with enough hull and resistances able to absorb damage directly to hull?
It's very hard to tank with shields being bypassed completely, even on a cruiser.
There are people who can counter 100% shieldPen and do it well.
One example where AstroZombie and I go back and forth on it. When he's not being lagged out and on the ball, he can stop me cold, despite me having 100% shieldPen and an insane damage boost to torps.
Now, if I were using plasma explosions, shieldPen or not, the result would be heavily in my favor.
So just to be clear, if someone can stack 100% shield penetration in a pvp setting, hardness does not change that at all? It seems that will become the new normal, and sci ships which rely on shields to protect them will be left in the dust vs pilot escorts with multiple immunities, and cruisers with enough hull and resistances able to absorb damage directly to hull?
It's very hard to tank with shields being bypassed completely, even on a cruiser.
There are people who can counter 100% shieldPen and do it well.
One example where AstroZombie and I go back and forth on it. When he's not being lagged out and on the ball, he can stop me cold, despite me having 100% shieldPen and an insane damage boost to torps.
Now, if I were using plasma explosions, shieldPen or not, the result would be heavily in my favor.
In the first 30 seconds of the video he goes down to zero because of shield penetration. Play as a healer and you will see how bad the shield penetration is. You can have 68% base damage resistance and still go down to 10% when hit by torpedo spreads even when you use brace for impact. I have a lot of experience with this and I know my friends who don't fly tank/healer builds have no fun being one shot by torpedo spreads that go through shields.
Another point is what about the people who like shield tanking (like me). You can't make a shield tank now, at all. An entire build is no longer viable. I know you wouldn't like it if your torpedo builds weren't viable anymore.
While the video is sort of interesting as a gamer, I'd be horrified to have to show that to a fan of the Star Trek shows and tell them "This is what STO combat looks like." The length of those clashes is so short that to the casual observer that looks more like 'you flip a coin and the loser jabs a knife in their own throat' than any sort of contest between thousand-plus-crew starships.
So just to be clear, if someone can stack 100% shield penetration in a pvp setting, hardness does not change that at all? It seems that will become the new normal, and sci ships which rely on shields to protect them will be left in the dust vs pilot escorts with multiple immunities, and cruisers with enough hull and resistances able to absorb damage directly to hull?
It's very hard to tank with shields being bypassed completely, even on a cruiser.
There are people who can counter 100% shieldPen and do it well.
One example where AstroZombie and I go back and forth on it. When he's not being lagged out and on the ball, he can stop me cold, despite me having 100% shieldPen and an insane damage boost to torps.
Now, if I were using plasma explosions, shieldPen or not, the result would be heavily in my favor.
In the first 30 seconds of the video he goes down to zero because of shield penetration. Play as a healer and you will see how bad the shield penetration is. You can have 68% base damage resistance and still go down to 10% when hit by torpedo spreads even when you use brace for impact. I have a lot of experience with this and I know my friends who don't fly tank/healer builds have no fun being one shot by torpedo spreads that go through shields.
Another point is what about the people who like shield tanking (like me). You can't make a shield tank now, at all. An entire build is no longer viable. I know you wouldn't like it if your torpedo builds weren't viable anymore.
Don't forget that he was all but immune to my torps without running chain immunities. Still, your point is VERY valid; what good are shields now when they can be disintegrated from the player by NPC's and bypassed by players fairly regularly in PvP?
While the video is sort of interesting as a gamer, I'd be horrified to have to show that to a fan of the Star Trek shows and tell them "This is what STO combat looks like." The length of those clashes is so short that to the casual observer that looks more like 'you flip a coin and the loser jabs a knife in their own throat' than any sort of contest between thousand-plus-crew starships.
The game used to have "extended battles" in PvP when it was rich and flourishing. I was a complete n00blette back then, but I could still participate and at least contribute to some degree in a C&H. Now, you either jack them up on an alpha, or you are immune and FaW + Embassy Console everything to death.
So please excuse the puppy-like innocence of an actual noob... Story time!
I joined a robustly developed fleet for the first time only about a week ago. I ran around to all the fleet zones chortling at the goodies (and ooo'ing and awww'ing at the scenery). In the absence of any in-game guidance whatsoever I bought a Neutronium + turn rate console from the mines for my Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer that I was getting annoyed seemed a little too fragile and some really expensive Elite Meshweavers for my Tarantula because better hangar pets is better, right?
Again in the absence of guidance I'm sorta kinda maybe lining up to save up for an extra Starship-Trait slot for most of my captains. Given the MASSIVE price it sounds good... I know in a vague"'I've watched you-tube guides" way that I'll eventually be buying a bunch of +crit hit/energy type tactical consoles, and since I have two endgame science ships (Paradox/Annorax) at some point I'll have to go on the Science Channel and try to get a tutorial/some guidance on the mysteries of particle something-or-other consoles and the joys of exotic damage. Last weekend was my first upgrade weekend that I felt prepared to deal with and again with jack squat in-game guidance about what I should upgrade first I nervously blew my handful of Omega-thingies (technical term, don't laugh) to upgraded my thermionic torpedoes on my Tarantula (even got a color increase, yay me!) and upgraded a couple pieces of the Council Defense Pact gear on my Narcine because upgrading Lobi gear ought to be a sound choice, right? Its super expensive real money stuff so making it higher grade/better color should be X% better applied to a really good base... I think. Not sure since I've heard that the lobi gear I have actually doesn't get new [affix]'s when it improves in rarity class/color. My noobie soul keeps telling me upgrading shields ought to be a good call because that's a lot of functionality tied to one slot, but nobody anywhere seems to actually care about defense at endgame so I keep backing down when the moment arrives.
I'm a happy little noob slowly tuning up a handful of ships that make me want to play. That part of the experience is still good-to-occasionally-delightful. I really didn't think the punch line was 3 second fights. While I do appreciate the skill on display in that video all it really does is make me sad. I'm also willfully blocking out the constant noise on these boards about "90 second ISAs" even though I have no idea what that is. What it sounds like though is toxically corrupt gameplay brought on by monstrous unchecked power creep. I'm just guessing, but the impression is pretty strong...
So mostly I focus my efforts here on getting a good, lore-appropriate skill system revamp so that when 11.5 goes LIVE I can finally spend the skill points on all my alt captains that I've been ignoring because the fifty boxes of rainbows system kind of annoys me. I'm bummed we didn't get some new skill nodes so that the first tier of the tactical projectile/energy split could be merged in support of hybrid ship builds but in the end I'll shrug off the missed opportunity to make the game more like the shows and keep trying to help where I can. I am after all a LOT closer to being one of the ST-fan/new players Cryptic wants to court with the new TV series coming than to the multi-year hoary vets with EPIC XIV EVERYTHING even if I would qualify for a 2,000 day vet reward (if such a thing existed).
Edit: added spoiler tags for folks who care absolutely nothing about my perspective on all this .
So just to be clear, if someone can stack 100% shield penetration in a pvp setting, hardness does not change that at all? It seems that will become the new normal, and sci ships which rely on shields to protect them will be left in the dust vs pilot escorts with multiple immunities, and cruisers with enough hull and resistances able to absorb damage directly to hull?
It's very hard to tank with shields being bypassed completely, even on a cruiser.
There are people who can counter 100% shieldPen and do it well.
One example where AstroZombie and I go back and forth on it. When he's not being lagged out and on the ball, he can stop me cold, despite me having 100% shieldPen and an insane damage boost to torps.
Now, if I were using plasma explosions, shieldPen or not, the result would be heavily in my favor.
In the first 30 seconds of the video he goes down to zero because of shield penetration. Play as a healer and you will see how bad the shield penetration is. You can have 68% base damage resistance and still go down to 10% when hit by torpedo spreads even when you use brace for impact. I have a lot of experience with this and I know my friends who don't fly tank/healer builds have no fun being one shot by torpedo spreads that go through shields.
Another point is what about the people who like shield tanking (like me). You can't make a shield tank now, at all. An entire build is no longer viable. I know you wouldn't like it if your torpedo builds weren't viable anymore.
Don't forget that he was all but immune to my torps without running chain immunities. Still, your point is VERY valid; what good are shields now when they can be disintegrated from the player by NPC's and bypassed by players fairly regularly in PvP?
Yeah that's another good point. I love it when I'm in ker'rat and a sphere drains my shields in 5 seconds, even when I have 6 points in power insulators. lol
Shield Hardness Tooltip
The current Shield Hardness tooltip seems less clear than the one before:
By default, Shields negate 0.2 % of th damage that they prevent from reaching your Hull per point of Shield Subsystem Power currently allocated. Every point of Shield Hardness skill will increase this by an additional 0.2 % regardless of your current Shield Subsystem Power
+50 Shield Hardness
Total Skill Bonus = +50
Total Shield Damage Negation Modifier: 50 %
So, what is it now? What is the point about "regardless of your current shield subsystem power" part really supposed to say?
Do I get 0.3 % per point of shield power I currently have as shield hardness? (the +50 % might suggest that?)
Do I get 0.25 % per point of shield power (50 x 0.2 %= 25 % => 0.2 x 1.25 = 0.25)
Do I get 0.2 % per point of shield power I currently have as shield hardness, plus 50 % (extremely unlikely.)
It seems the "regardless of your current shield subsystem power" clause might make sense now for Shield Regeneration, but is wrong or misleading for Shield Hardness. There is no expectation that the change to the shield hardness would somehow be affected twice - e.g. that the figure added to hardness per point of power would grow (or shrink) with shield power.
It's a general problem of the tooltips when a value is already expressed as a percentage and then another percentage is supposed to interact with that. And then the skill gives 50 points, but each point is only this percentage, which modifies that percentage. I would not expect newbies to understand the text correctly.
Maybe the final value should be stated more clearly and more verbosely.
Total Skill Bonus: +50
Total Extra Shield Damage Negation Modifier: +x % per point of shield power.
And it would be totally awesome of the Ship Status Page would list effective shield hardness under Stats like it lists shield regeneration rate, hull, defense and so on.
Shield Regeneration Tooltip
This also seems misleading or inconsistent, upon closer reading.
Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1 % of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds, regardless of your current Shield Subsystem Power Level.
Okay, so shield power doesn't matter for the regeneration from this shield, okay, so be it. (Is it really a good idea? You have your reasons, I guess.)
But then:
+50 Shield Regeneration
Total Skill Bonus: +50
Total Additional Shield Regeneration: +5 % per 6 seconds.
Huh? Is it supposed to be 1 % or is it 0.1 % per point of skill?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Unlock Bonuses
It seems to me that the potency of some of the unlock bonuses feel all over the place in their magnitude, and the ymight not really be "fairly" distributed - or at least hint at some form of imbalance in the value of certain skills.
For example: The Tactical Accuracy Unlock adds +5 % Accuracy. That's about 2/3 of the bonus from Targeting Expertise I.
The Maximum Shield Capacity buff is +10 Shield Hardness is 1/5th of the bonus from the Shield Capacity I.
The Hangar Pet Unlock grants 1/2 of the benefit of the Coordination Protocol: Or maybe just 1/4th, if it really only affects
hull.
The Weapon and Auxiliary Subsystem Power unlock (same level as the Accuracy unlock) is less than 1/4th in magnitude to the the Defensive Subsystem or Offensive Subsystem Tuning.
There is also the problem of the Critical Hit and Critical Severity bonus unlocks not being equally powerful - due to the base values for crit probability and crit severity and the general way crit bonus and crit severity affect damage output, the critical hit chance bonus is much better than the severity bonus. +1 % / +10 Crit Severity might be a more reasonable choice.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Comments
It's very hard to tank with shields being bypassed completely, even on a cruiser.
Thanks for the heads up
Also in PvP for spike damage favors crtd more I think (with activatable abilities that only influence crth/crtd for a time). Though perhaps those abilities balance things out really well as they (usually, if not always) affect both crtd and crth. I would definitely be going crth though if not tac and with ships with low amounts of tac console slots (I think, my math is reasonably likely to be wrong).
You don't need a bribe, Borticus...you need a vacation!
After April 12.
Thanks for the clearing up my mind....and getting me past that block.
++++++++++++++++++
To: iusasset...thanks for the examples. I shall re-read them in the morning when I am more awake.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Description (tooltip):
This increases the amount of shields that are passively regenerated on a continuou basis.
Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds, regardless of your current Shield Subystem Power level.
(Note: ...)
... + 50 Shield regeneration ...
Total Skill Bonus = +50
Total Additional Shield Regeneration = +5% per 6 second
Possible conclusions:
A ) Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds ->
Ok then when I invest 3 points (of 46) to this skill I will get 3%
B ) Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds ->
So why do I get 5% with 50 skill points in this skill? (level 1)
C ) Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds ->
Sounds great: With 0 point in this skill I have 7550 SHP (tooltip of shield) 11014 SHP (Ship stats) and 187,6 shield per 6 second. So, with 10% (3 skill points) I will get another 10% of max shield capacity -> 755 respectively 1104 Shield per 6 second. Awesome. It's 400-600% bonus!!!
D ) Only 5%, resp. 10% increase of passive regeneration? -> 187,6 + 10% ??? ... Pff -> Waste of skill points
----sorry for little trolling----
I think that this revamp changed clothes, but inside remained same... (Of course it remained same. The game is based on mods of equipment etc, so It is not possible to change the logic.
In old-current system you invest 3*18 and know, you have 54 poins of skill -> which means something
And ALL SKILLS HAVE THE SAME principles 18,18,18,10,10,10,5,5,5
In new system you invest 3x1 point which means 50+35+15 or 60+40 or not even skill -> which means something...
And now imagine the Inspirational leader trait. What is the skill and what it is not? (All have the same description: Space skill. For example Full Impulse Energy shunt is not a skill (with 50+35+15) and still have description: "This skill provides..."
It really does not make things easier to understand...
---I know, you needed bigger change, because currect system limited you in developing new content. And inside I am glad for all new content and changes. I have to say, that all changes done since season 10 were amazing and thank you for that---
I'm loving the Skill/Skill Tree changes for my Tactical Captains. I gain new Skills to invest in, freebie Skills that I'd already been investing in to improve my Captain Abilities, and generally more things to blow stuff up with. Despite the changes to Training Manual requirements it feels like a nice improvement overall. Even the Tactical Unlocks feel more powerful than the other Professions, though I'd agree with putting Threat Control back as a Tactical Unlock, paired with Hangar Pet Damage... it just fits the Tactical theme better (pairing a choice between improved ally damage or personal flexibility in tactics).
My Science Captains are also looking pretty good. The consolidation of many of the Science Skills frees up a decent amount of space in my builds for Science-focused characters, and allows me to make better use of secondary abilities that simply weren't effective enough to build around. I'm on the fence as to overall performance changes, but a less extreme slope for the Science Skills does make it easier on you guys to balance content in the long run... maybe if the same concept had been applied to weapon damage (higher baseline values and less extreme scaling) it'd feel less like Science was specifically getting nerfed.
Looking at Control Amplification and Drain Infection, though, I think these need a bit of a revision. Rather than triggering once per ability per 5 secs, and lasting 5 secs, is it possible to have them behave for Control/Drain abilities like Attack Pattern Beta behaves for weapons? What I mean is that they could re-apply as long as the target is exposed to an appropriate effect, and last for 5 secs after that effect ends, while being limited to 1 stack per source (in other words, per captain). With the corrections to strengthened strengths and resistable resists this shouldn't make for anything too crazy, so long as Control Amplification is subject to the same diminishing returns as other DRM debuffs. It would make them useful, though.
Engineers still feel like they're getting the short end of the Revamp stick... or the long end... whatever. For a Profession built around defenses and tanking, increases in Shield Penetration, division of Hull Restoration and Damage Control (Engineering Fleet needs to have the description updated to say "Damage Control" rather than "Hull Regeneration", btw), etc. make the Skill Revamp feel a bit punitive towards Engineers. The lack of any new shinies for us to enjoy Engineering-wise puts a bit of a damper on the whole thing as well, since even the Engineering Ultimate has no real correlation to with the Profession or the Skills.
Not too happy about the lack of scaling to the duration for EPS Manifold Efficiency; the removal of all scaling makes the ability worse than it was before for any Engineer that actually built to use it... in other words the only folks that really cared about the ability in the first place. Given that I'm the one that asked about EPS Manifold Efficiency/Batteries Expertise for the Livestream Q&A, I apologize to any fellow Engineers that actually built for the ability. I'm still hoping the lack of scaling is a bug (since the Patch Notes didn't actually say "and no longer scales with Battery Expetise" and the Trait description still claims that "The duration of these subsystem power boosts is based on your Batteries skill."), but if it's intentional I'd like to suggest an alternative:
+ Put the duration back to 10 secs, but...
+ Put the scaling back, and...
+ Give the Batteries Skill/Batteries Expertise the "Willpower treatment" (by granting +1/level up to 50, with the Unlock granting the other +50).
That would still remove the feeling of being reliant upon the Unlock while also still enabling Engineers to properly invest in their abilities as is currently possible on Holodeck. I'd argue for the "Attack Patterns treatment" (and just give our Engineers a fully effective ability at no cost) instead, but only our Tactical Captains usually get that much of a free benefit.
Oh, and the Red Matter Capacitor is bugged (both on Holodeck and Tribble); it claims to trigger EPS Manifold Efficiency, but that is no longer the case... not sure when that happened since on Holodeck I usually maintain uptime with EP2x.
I'm also not really a fan having to choose between Treat Control and Batteries on the Engineering Unlock; Threat Control itself more logically applies to the Tactical line, and Batteries improves our Capacitors, Consumables, Devices, and (according to the description currently on Tribble, so hopefully...) EPS Manifold Efficiency. I do like the idea of Batteries vs Hangar Health in the Engineering Unlocks (as with Threat Control vs Hangar Weaponry in the Tactical Unlocks), both from a thematic and build perspective.
I did see that you've added Aux2Batt III; that's a nice thing to find, but I have to say that placing an ability with debatable value anywhere near the beginning of the Engineering Line is just... meh. Let's be honest here: the only reason to run Aux2Batt at all is to proc Technicians, since the ability itself is pyrrhic in nature. Seriously, check your metrics for the number of captains using Aux2Batt without Technicians slotted. Aux2ID and Aux2SIF are both far more useful, and besides... Aux2Batt is kind of the opposite of EP2Aux, so why not put Aux2Batt out at the same 17 abilities Unlock point?
Welp, there's my wall-o-feedback based on my most recent journey to Tribble; I'll give another assessment if/when I get another chance to do dip my toes in over there before the 12th.
On another note, I like that battery expertise and threat control abilities can be obtain early, but I do not like that you have to choose between one or the other. Both skills can be used in any build, why make people choose between two very good skills when they can be mixed with some more mediocre ones. As a sci captain the minus threat would be great for managing aggro especially since shield tanking in advanced/elite stfs isn't as good as escort speed tanking or cruiser hull tanking due to too many npc powers that can knock your shields off line or drain them completely in a few secs.
I know that as a Science Vessel Captain, until the invention of the Quantum Phase Torpedoes, most enemies where cooked in their shields. The QPT tends to mean they also lose a lot of shields now... But I don't think that significantly improves my time to kill. (But it feels great.)
I was curious which one is right.
And result? None of them :-)
Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit - Shield modifier 1 (At least it should be)
common shield array MK IX - It should have also Shield modifier 1
No other gear mounted
All traits empty (even ground, etc)
No Boffs/Doffs
Sol system (just next ESD)
Calculation based on regeneration
Base regeneration without any skills:127,5 per 6 sec
5% bonus reg (1 skill point spent): 153 per 6 sec ---> 20% bonus
8,5% bonus reg (2 skill point spent): 170,8 per 6 sec --> 33,96% bonus (rounded to 34%)
10% bonus reg (3 skill point spent):178,5 per 6 sec --> 40% bonus
Calculation based on Max shield HP
Base Max shield HP 5100
127,5 = 2,5% of 5100
1. skill point -> 25,5 = 0,0050 of 5100 (0,5% bonus)
2. skill point -> 43,3 = 0,0085 of 5100 (0,85% bonus)
3. skill point -> 51 = 0,0100 of 5100 (1% bonus)
So bonus is not 10% of max shield, but 1% of max shield...
There is a bug in calculation or in wrong description.... I think that same problem is on Damage control skill.
Resume: In this way of calculation-> This skill will be good (maybe) for covariant shield with cap modifiers but worthless for regenerative shields. But I dont know if regenerating modifiers stacks of multiplies
For example:
Damage control skill -> Total regeneration skill bonus 0.05 (It means 5 %)
Shield regeneration skill -> Total regeneration skill bonus 5%
Feedback Pulse skill -> Reflect up to 0.31 incoming energy (What does it mean?) 31% percent? 0.31 percent?
Reverse shield polarity -> converts 2% of incoming energy damage (But I think it is 200%, because gives me instant shield healing)
I saw this on the last patch....on both KDF and Rom icons.
Is this something that has to go in the Tribble Bug thread? I will double check both later this morning...and write one.
Or whoever gets to it.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
My friend tells me they are changing the tool tip on Resilient Shields to reflect more closely what it actually does.
I believe it works closer to: 5% to Hull, 95% to Shields with 5% knocked off ENERGY damage. I am not sure if that means Resilient Shields are different because they have an innate "Shield Hardness" attached to them or if it is a different type of damage resistance named "resilience".
Check that tool tip on Tribble.
Does anyone know what happens to Kinetic damage against "Shield Hardness"...is that treated differently? (Like, kinetic damage needs MORE of that) Because I know that when kinetic damage hits those Resilient shields....doesn't get that 5% knocked off. At least, that is how I was reading it on Reddit.
(Still haven't had time to get on Tribble to look at anything...shoot, haven't had time to play on Holodeck
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Thanks for reminding me that I have to test the QPhase to see if the drain on the main target is fixed under HY, and if the drains are still consistent when spec'd for it.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
I can say that kinetics hitting shields do significantly reduced damage TO shields before hardness is factored in. I expected Resil shields to toss 5% of the damage into the aether AFTER actual shield damage is calculated. I guess that's one more thing to add to the test....
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
:P
There are people who can counter 100% shieldPen and do it well.
One example where AstroZombie and I go back and forth on it. When he's not being lagged out and on the ball, he can stop me cold, despite me having 100% shieldPen and an insane damage boost to torps.
Now, if I were using plasma explosions, shieldPen or not, the result would be heavily in my favor.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
In the first 30 seconds of the video he goes down to zero because of shield penetration. Play as a healer and you will see how bad the shield penetration is. You can have 68% base damage resistance and still go down to 10% when hit by torpedo spreads even when you use brace for impact. I have a lot of experience with this and I know my friends who don't fly tank/healer builds have no fun being one shot by torpedo spreads that go through shields.
Another point is what about the people who like shield tanking (like me). You can't make a shield tank now, at all. An entire build is no longer viable. I know you wouldn't like it if your torpedo builds weren't viable anymore.
Don't forget that he was all but immune to my torps without running chain immunities. Still, your point is VERY valid; what good are shields now when they can be disintegrated from the player by NPC's and bypassed by players fairly regularly in PvP?
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
The game used to have "extended battles" in PvP when it was rich and flourishing. I was a complete n00blette back then, but I could still participate and at least contribute to some degree in a C&H. Now, you either jack them up on an alpha, or you are immune and FaW + Embassy Console everything to death.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Again in the absence of guidance I'm sorta kinda maybe lining up to save up for an extra Starship-Trait slot for most of my captains. Given the MASSIVE price it sounds good... I know in a vague"'I've watched you-tube guides" way that I'll eventually be buying a bunch of +crit hit/energy type tactical consoles, and since I have two endgame science ships (Paradox/Annorax) at some point I'll have to go on the Science Channel and try to get a tutorial/some guidance on the mysteries of particle something-or-other consoles and the joys of exotic damage. Last weekend was my first upgrade weekend that I felt prepared to deal with and again with jack squat in-game guidance about what I should upgrade first I nervously blew my handful of Omega-thingies (technical term, don't laugh) to upgraded my thermionic torpedoes on my Tarantula (even got a color increase, yay me!) and upgraded a couple pieces of the Council Defense Pact gear on my Narcine because upgrading Lobi gear ought to be a sound choice, right? Its super expensive real money stuff so making it higher grade/better color should be X% better applied to a really good base... I think. Not sure since I've heard that the lobi gear I have actually doesn't get new [affix]'s when it improves in rarity class/color. My noobie soul keeps telling me upgrading shields ought to be a good call because that's a lot of functionality tied to one slot, but nobody anywhere seems to actually care about defense at endgame so I keep backing down when the moment arrives.
I'm a happy little noob slowly tuning up a handful of ships that make me want to play. That part of the experience is still good-to-occasionally-delightful. I really didn't think the punch line was 3 second fights. While I do appreciate the skill on display in that video all it really does is make me sad. I'm also willfully blocking out the constant noise on these boards about "90 second ISAs" even though I have no idea what that is. What it sounds like though is toxically corrupt gameplay brought on by monstrous unchecked power creep. I'm just guessing, but the impression is pretty strong...
So mostly I focus my efforts here on getting a good, lore-appropriate skill system revamp so that when 11.5 goes LIVE I can finally spend the skill points on all my alt captains that I've been ignoring because the fifty boxes of rainbows system kind of annoys me. I'm bummed we didn't get some new skill nodes so that the first tier of the tactical projectile/energy split could be merged in support of hybrid ship builds but in the end I'll shrug off the missed opportunity to make the game more like the shows and keep trying to help where I can. I am after all a LOT closer to being one of the ST-fan/new players Cryptic wants to court with the new TV series coming than to the multi-year hoary vets with EPIC XIV EVERYTHING even if I would qualify for a 2,000 day vet reward (if such a thing existed).
Edit: added spoiler tags for folks who care absolutely nothing about my perspective on all this
Yeah that's another good point. I love it when I'm in ker'rat and a sphere drains my shields in 5 seconds, even when I have 6 points in power insulators. lol
Hehehe
lol I had a feeling Junior would have something to say.
Shield Hardness Tooltip
The current Shield Hardness tooltip seems less clear than the one before:
So, what is it now? What is the point about "regardless of your current shield subsystem power" part really supposed to say?
Do I get 0.3 % per point of shield power I currently have as shield hardness? (the +50 % might suggest that?)
Do I get 0.25 % per point of shield power (50 x 0.2 %= 25 % => 0.2 x 1.25 = 0.25)
Do I get 0.2 % per point of shield power I currently have as shield hardness, plus 50 % (extremely unlikely.)
It seems the "regardless of your current shield subsystem power" clause might make sense now for Shield Regeneration, but is wrong or misleading for Shield Hardness. There is no expectation that the change to the shield hardness would somehow be affected twice - e.g. that the figure added to hardness per point of power would grow (or shrink) with shield power.
It's a general problem of the tooltips when a value is already expressed as a percentage and then another percentage is supposed to interact with that. And then the skill gives 50 points, but each point is only this percentage, which modifies that percentage. I would not expect newbies to understand the text correctly.
Maybe the final value should be stated more clearly and more verbosely.
Total Skill Bonus: +50
Total Extra Shield Damage Negation Modifier: +x % per point of shield power.
And it would be totally awesome of the Ship Status Page would list effective shield hardness under Stats like it lists shield regeneration rate, hull, defense and so on.
Shield Regeneration Tooltip
This also seems misleading or inconsistent, upon closer reading. Okay, so shield power doesn't matter for the regeneration from this shield, okay, so be it. (Is it really a good idea? You have your reasons, I guess.)
But then: Huh? Is it supposed to be 1 % or is it 0.1 % per point of skill?
It seems to me that the potency of some of the unlock bonuses feel all over the place in their magnitude, and the ymight not really be "fairly" distributed - or at least hint at some form of imbalance in the value of certain skills.
For example: The Tactical Accuracy Unlock adds +5 % Accuracy. That's about 2/3 of the bonus from Targeting Expertise I.
The Maximum Shield Capacity buff is +10 Shield Hardness is 1/5th of the bonus from the Shield Capacity I.
The Hangar Pet Unlock grants 1/2 of the benefit of the Coordination Protocol: Or maybe just 1/4th, if it really only affects
hull.
The Weapon and Auxiliary Subsystem Power unlock (same level as the Accuracy unlock) is less than 1/4th in magnitude to the the Defensive Subsystem or Offensive Subsystem Tuning.
There is also the problem of the Critical Hit and Critical Severity bonus unlocks not being equally powerful - due to the base values for crit probability and crit severity and the general way crit bonus and crit severity affect damage output, the critical hit chance bonus is much better than the severity bonus. +1 % / +10 Crit Severity might be a more reasonable choice.