EDIT: The new PEN skills are also making the PEN mod weapons worthless, if you have the skills that is. Never use PEN weapons with PEN skills.
This is just flatly untrue. I question your testing methodology.
Not only have I never noticed any damage change stacking 4 penetrations up, let me quote from the dev live stream Q&A
Q, Do the new shield and hull penetration skills stack with the [PEN] modifier?
A, They’re the same thing under the hood. They don’t stack, but they both apply.”
The PEN mod on weapons do nothing if you have the pen skills from everything I have seen.
EDIT: The new PEN skills are also making the PEN mod weapons worthless, if you have the skills that is. Never use PEN weapons with PEN skills.
This is just flatly untrue. I question your testing methodology.
Not only have I never noticed any damage change stacking 4 penetrations up, let me quote from the dev live stream Q&A
Q, Do the new shield and hull penetration skills stack with the [PEN] modifier?
A, They’re the same thing under the hood. They don’t stack, but they both apply.”
The PEN mod on weapons do nothing if you have the pen skills from everything I have seen.
if you think it's a bug, maybe put it in the bug section with data and evidence? Bort already explained (several times) how it's supposed to work. Right now you're just being a great example of how not to get something fixed.
EDIT: The new PEN skills are also making the PEN mod weapons worthless, if you have the skills that is. Never use PEN weapons with PEN skills.
This is just flatly untrue. I question your testing methodology.
Not only have I never noticed any damage change stacking 4 penetrations up, let me quote from the dev live stream Q&A
Q, Do the new shield and hull penetration skills stack with the [PEN] modifier?
A, They’re the same thing under the hood. They don’t stack, but they both apply.”
The PEN mod on weapons do nothing if you have the pen skills from everything I have seen.
if you think it's a bug, maybe put it in the bug section with data and evidence? Bort already explained (several times) how it's supposed to work. Right now you're just being a great example of how not to get something fixed.
Did you misread my post? I never said it was a bug and the line "They’re the same thing under the hood. They don’t stack, but they both apply" is how the devs said it worked.
Does the Hangar Health / Damage selector in the tactical bar also buff teammates, separated pets, and hangar pets like the tac skills do now? If so, maybe the name should be changed so it's more desireable and understandable. If not, then maybe that would be a good change so people won't feel they're selecting a useless buff.
EDIT: The new PEN skills are also making the PEN mod weapons worthless, if you have the skills that is. Never use PEN weapons with PEN skills.
This is just flatly untrue. I question your testing methodology.
Not only have I never noticed any damage change stacking 4 penetrations up, let me quote from the dev live stream Q&A
Q, Do the new shield and hull penetration skills stack with the [PEN] modifier?
A, They’re the same thing under the hood. They don’t stack, but they both apply.”
The PEN mod on weapons do nothing if you have the pen skills from everything I have seen.
if you think it's a bug, maybe put it in the bug section with data and evidence? Bort already explained (several times) how it's supposed to work. Right now you're just being a great example of how not to get something fixed.
Did you misread my post? I never said it was a bug and the line "They’re the same thing under the hood. They don’t stack, but they both apply" is how the devs said it worked.
yeah I did. I remember bort saying they both apply a debuff and both work ( I think it was in his and trendy's livestream). Maybe the wording is bad or there's some miscommunication, but it's obvious bort disagrees with you. Maybe you can show a parse or something.
EDIT: The new PEN skills are also making the PEN mod weapons worthless, if you have the skills that is. Never use PEN weapons with PEN skills.
This is just flatly untrue. I question your testing methodology.
Not only have I never noticed any damage change stacking 4 penetrations up, let me quote from the dev live stream Q&A
Q, Do the new shield and hull penetration skills stack with the [PEN] modifier?
A, They’re the same thing under the hood. They don’t stack, but they both apply.”
The PEN mod on weapons do nothing if you have the pen skills from everything I have seen.
if you think it's a bug, maybe put it in the bug section with data and evidence? Bort already explained (several times) how it's supposed to work. Right now you're just being a great example of how not to get something fixed.
Did you misread my post? I never said it was a bug and the line "They’re the same thing under the hood. They don’t stack, but they both apply" is how the devs said it worked.
yeah I did. I remember bort saying they both apply a debuff and both work ( I think it was in his and trendy's livestream). Maybe the wording is bad or there's some miscommunication, but it's obvious bort disagrees with you. Maybe you can show a parse or something.
I disagree.. Hull cap is big in my builds as a engineering tank. I can easily repair subsystems with out that and battery is not very helpful to my build, sure it's some what useful in maintaining power but it's not ground breaking. But getting my hull to the highest it can be helps against burst builds. I think choosing between hull cap and threat is bad. Threat and subsystem repair would be better.
Except that's exactly the sort of choice this is intended to be. It's intended to be meaningful- which is to say both options have meaning and make you think, rather than just being automatic cookie cutter whatever.
With your example, your argument comes down to, if I'm reading this right 'I don't want to make meaningful choices, I don't like the choice that encourages me not to just check off all the ticks' and from the stated design goals of this skill revamp, 'that' is bad.
If threat control gets swapped with hangar pet health of course this will all be moot, but until that's locked in, I really feel that my suggestion is worth a further look for the very reason that it does encourage more exploration of builds- by players old and new.
Besides, from a tanking perspective, it's only 5% of base hull. You get more from rep traits, you get more from jevonite hardpoints, you get more from consoles. But if you've gotta, gotta have that extra hull, you can get it at the cost of a little itty bitty extra threat.
But there's another thing you're missing here- and that's threat control isn't just extra threat. it's less threat when you don't have threatening stance active. That's huge for squishier players- and promotes, for those players, a meaningful choice. Extra hull is more survivability, sure, but so is a threat decrease. And 5% isn't that much extra, but -100 threat generation can be huge to the right builds.
This really encourages diversity and experimentation for builds because the choice is meaningful without also being crippling. That's the stated design goal here.
If you just want eazymode, then I can't really help you with that, maybe you should go argue that we shouldn't have trees and should just be able to pick whichever nodes we want at any level, idk.
Your argument invalidates your original argument, you are arguing that it's ok for it to be that kind hard choose. Since it appears that this is currently too hard of a choose for you and others. It's currently functioning exactly how you are arguing. This is contradictory logic.
That is why I suggested it be subsystem repair vs threat. Because any other way who would not pick threat control over + max hull hp? Thous a easy choose, I don't know of a build that wouldn't in some way benefit from threat reduction or threat +. But many don't need the hull + except for those who need threat +. But threat plus > the hull hp always in the builds that max this stat.
It is not crippling for plus negative threat, which did not exist before this to also have to choose between - threat, and batteries. Not to mention the engi eps trait is now not effected by battery. While threat + did exist , those builds that now have - threat won't all the sudden become worse because they don't have max threat -.
Easy mode isn't that what your suggesting for a build you want ? You have hard choose.. Even though it's easy for me to choose hull over subsystem repair because i have other ways of countering that doesn't mean that subsystem repair isn't a very useful option to me especially since in pvp It's fairly easy to pop all my clears and still get ripped up from drain builds.
In the end we have different styles, different wants. We both want whats best for our builds and we want the easiest solutions don't delude your self into thinking that's not what we aren't arguing about. That's why i think my suggestion is the best of both worlds a compromise.
So if we have 69% resistances and someone has pen weapons and this skill then only 49% of our armor applies correct? I need to reiterate that we need a way to reduce incoming penetration because as it stands penetration skills keep being added to the game but the diminishing returns of armor makes it impossible to defend against unless I'm misunderstanding. It's not as if tanks were ever overpowered at all so Im curious why this uneven treatment was introduced? I don't even fly tanks I'm just looking out for my buddies who do.
Wouldn't it make more sense to have penetration skills ignore a percentage of the armor rating? For example I have 200 points into armor resistances before diminishing returns apply so why not have it ignore 10% of that number? This would give them the same as diminishing returns tanks suffer from which evens things out. That way if I want to increase my armor skill to 250, even though I won't gain much usable armor, I will be better protected from penetration skills giving me a reason to invest heavily in armor. This would affect heavily armored ships very well while giving almost no benefit against enemies with little or no armor. This could seriously balance things out like a lot.
@samt1996 - That's not how armor penetration works. It's a damage resistance rating debuff, which means it suffers from diminishing returns (and a maximum effective final multiplier) the same as everything else, and also means it can be countered by...increasing damage resistance rating (e.g., armor consoles, rep skills, powers like Hazard Emitters/Aux to Struct/Polarize Hull). Nothing to see, here.
@pottsey5g - You misunderstand. Spartan and Borticus mean that having multiple sources of armor penetration will not amplify one another (that's how I interpret stack). In the transcript you linked earlier, it was explicitly said that multiple sources of armor penetration will simultaneously apply.
So yes, all sources of armor penetration "stack" (to use your parlance), in the sense that all contribute (in concert) towards the target's final damage resistance modifier as applies to your damage, not that one will apply at the expense of all others.
Thank you for clearing that up I was hoping that's how it worked. Do you have any sources or experiments documented to prove this? The dev's telling us how it works would also be nice.
Like others in this thread, I am not thrilled with having to now choose between Threat Control and Battery Expertise. Even on non-tanking builds, the reduced threat generation can be a life-saver, and batteries are useful on any ship for both DPS and tanking. To me, both skills are necessities in nearly every build, so choosing between them only complicates things.
Given my view that both of these skills are incredibly versatile and necessities in most builds, I do approve of them having lower requirements to access on those progression bars. Battery Expertise was always low on those progression bars, but Threat Control being moved to a lower spot as well is very much appreciated.
That being said, here are some things I've noted in the thread for these most recent patch notes that would be better served if they were moved here:
Have you guys looked into the stat distributions for the Assimilated Deflector Array yet? Currently on Tribble the Assimilated Deflector Array provides no bonuses to Drain Expertise, despite having Power Insulators pre-skill revamp. It seems the Power Insulators skill the deflector previously boosted has been incorrectly rolled into Control Expertise.
It seems to me that the skill icons for the ground skills are really dull and a lot less vivid than their space counterparts or the specialization skill icons. Even when you have the skill specced into, the icons are noticeably less brighter than other skill icons. I don't know why this is, and I was wondering if you guys would consider this an issue in need of a fix or an intentional design choice?
The description for the "Improved Flanking Damage" skill on the bottom progression bar for ground skills still doesn't tell exactly how much of a damage boost it provides. This is bothersome when compared to its sister skill "Improved Flanking Resistance" and all other self-boosting skills on that progression bar that do provide exact numbers.
The "Drain Infection" skill for space also doesn't provide numbers on its tooltip as to how much damage its DoT effect does. This is critical information for many, as damage numbers would let people know if its worth speccing into to enhance their current build(s).
EDIT: I've also noticed that when you hover your mouse cursor over the space skills, you get different icons that pop up, assuming you're an RRF or KDF member. For example, instead of getting that squiggly spiral icon when hovering over an Engineering skill, you'd get the funky 4-pointed singularity swirl that RRF Engineers use or the silhouette of a Klingon Battlecruiser that is used elsewhere in the game as the icon for KDF Engineers.
Assuming this is intentional, why don't the base icons for the skill system's skills just have their standard appearances changed to match what pops up. That way RRF and KDF captains don't have Starfleet icons in their skill tree and instead have the faction-appropriate ones.
Like others in this thread, I am not thrilled with having to now choose between threat control and battery expertise. Even on non-tanking builds, the reduced threat generation can be a life-saver, and batteries are useful on any ship for both DPS and tanking. To me, both skills are necessities in nearly every build, so choosing between them only complicates things.
That being said, here are some things I've noted in the thread for these most recent patch notes that would be better-served if they were moved here:
Have you guys looked into the stat distributions for the Assimilated Deflector Array yet? Currently on Tribble the Assimilated Deflector Array provides no bonuses to Drain Expertise, despite having Power Insulators pre-skill revamp. It seems the Power Insulators skill the deflector previously boosted has been incorrectly rolled into Control Expertise.
It seems to me that the skill icons for the ground skills are really dull and a lot less vivid than their space counterparts or the specialization skill icons. Even when you have the skill specced into, the icons are noticeably less brighter than other skill icons. I don't know why this is, and I was wondering if you guys would consider this an issue in need of a fix or an intentional design choice?
The description for the "Improved Flanking Damage" on the bottom progression bar for ground skills still doesn't tell exactly how much of a damage boost it provides. This is bothersome when compared to its sister skill "Improved Flanking Resistance" and all other self-boosting skills on that progression bar that do provide exact numbers.
The "Drain Infection" skill for space also doesn't provide numbers on its tooltip as to how much damage its DoT effect does. This is critical information for many, as damage numbers would let people know if its worth speccing into to enhance their current build(s).
While I do understand that issue +hullhp vs threat control is not the answer as that's a NON-choose for any build. As everyone one who knows game mechanics better will always choose threat control over hull hp. The best solutions IMO are system repair vs threat control or the - threat should be base line and it should only grant threat + to replace threat control skill.
While I do understand that issue +hullhp vs threat control is not the answer as that's a NON-choose for any build. As everyone one who knows game mechanics better will always choose threat control over hull hp. The best solutions IMO are system repair vs threat control or the - threat should be base line and it should only grant threat + to replace threat control skill.
I didn't suggest merging +Hull HP and Threat Control anywhere in my post, LOL. Not sure where you got that from.
While I do understand that issue +hullhp vs threat control is not the answer as that's a NON-choose for any build. As everyone one who knows game mechanics better will always choose threat control over hull hp. The best solutions IMO are system repair vs threat control or the - threat should be base line and it should only grant threat + to replace threat control skill.
I didn't suggest merging +Hull HP and Threat Control anywhere in my post, LOL. Not sure where you got that from.
Forgive me please then, I assumed incorrectly. xD disregard my statements. But do you have any idea or suggestion how they should correct it then ?
I agree that merging the choice between threat & batteries is not very good.
As a engineer I use batteries a lot (specially lately) to improve my damage output cause the rest of my ship is focusing on tanking. This choice is really too harsh. Points why have been given by other people here.
I agree that merging the choice between threat & batteries is not very good.
As a engineer I use batteries a lot (specially lately) to improve my damage output cause the rest of my ship is focusing on tanking. This choice is really too harsh. Points why have been given by other people here.
I agree, I love using batteries (such as reactive armor catalysts) and I'm love having my threat generation.
I believe there is confusion in here. To clear this up:
If you have a weapon with a Pen mod, it will ignore 10 resistance rating when it shoots.
If you have a weapon without the Pen mod, but have the Advanced Hull Penetration unlock, it will ignore 10 resistance rating when it shoots.
If you have a weapon with the Pen mod, and have the Advanced Hull Penetration unlock, it will ignore 20 resistance rating when it shoots.
Ok, I did ask about this earlier without getting an answer.
If Penetration is subtracted from Resistance before diminishing returns are applied that's just HORRIBLY BAD. Bad like never, EVER seek this out. Beyond garbage. The effect is more like a rounding error than a skill. You're just dinking around at the far end of the curve where FIFTY points of penetration can mean a shift of less than 3%.
If Penetration is run through the same diminishing returns equation as Resistance and the resulting percentage is subtracted from the mitigation percentage, then you have an effect to put on your shopping list.
well, since the DPS wizards and number crunchers have long ago determined that penetration (at least the hull version) is awesome, i'd say it works along the latter lines
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I believe there is confusion in here. To clear this up:
If you have a weapon with a Pen mod, it will ignore 10 resistance rating when it shoots.
If you have a weapon without the Pen mod, but have the Advanced Hull Penetration unlock, it will ignore 10 resistance rating when it shoots.
If you have a weapon with the Pen mod, and have the Advanced Hull Penetration unlock, it will ignore 20 resistance rating when it shoots.
Ok, I did ask about this earlier without getting an answer.
If Penetration is subtracted from Resistance before diminishing returns are applied that's just HORRIBLY BAD. Bad like never, EVER seek this out. Beyond garbage. The effect is more like a rounding error than a skill. You're just dinking around at the far end of the curve where FIFTY points of penetration can mean a shift of less than 3%.
If Penetration is run through the same diminishing returns equation as Resistance and the resulting percentage is subtracted from the mitigation percentage, then you have an effect to put on your shopping list.
Which is it?
There is a damage resistance curve for negative effects (that includes "ignore resistance rating", "- All Damage Resistance", and other similarly worded powers) and one for positive effects (that includes "+All Energy Resistance Rating" and similarly worded effects). These are separate curves. The results of these two curves are then used to calculate the target's effective resistance versus the attack in question. I believe this fits your second interpretation.
Is "Shield Hardness" (as shield damage resistance) used to bring down the Total Damage BEFORE the direct damage to shields and the "bleed through" damage to hull is calculated?
And "Shield Penetration" by passes shield damage resistances...including that from "Shield Hardness" skill?
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Comments
This is just flatly untrue. I question your testing methodology.
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Q, Do the new shield and hull penetration skills stack with the [PEN] modifier?
A, They’re the same thing under the hood. They don’t stack, but they both apply.”
The PEN mod on weapons do nothing if you have the pen skills from everything I have seen.
It might just mean that you can't just "stack" them by adding the values, but if they both apply, they both seem to be doing something, don't they?
if you think it's a bug, maybe put it in the bug section with data and evidence? Bort already explained (several times) how it's supposed to work. Right now you're just being a great example of how not to get something fixed.
Does the Hangar Health / Damage selector in the tactical bar also buff teammates, separated pets, and hangar pets like the tac skills do now? If so, maybe the name should be changed so it's more desireable and understandable. If not, then maybe that would be a good change so people won't feel they're selecting a useless buff.
yeah I did. I remember bort saying they both apply a debuff and both work ( I think it was in his and trendy's livestream). Maybe the wording is bad or there's some miscommunication, but it's obvious bort disagrees with you. Maybe you can show a parse or something.
Why are they not stacking? Why is this dynamic being introduced?
If you have a weapon with a Pen mod, it will ignore 10 resistance rating when it shoots.
If you have a weapon without the Pen mod, but have the Advanced Hull Penetration unlock, it will ignore 10 resistance rating when it shoots.
If you have a weapon with the Pen mod, and have the Advanced Hull Penetration unlock, it will ignore 20 resistance rating when it shoots.
Your argument invalidates your original argument, you are arguing that it's ok for it to be that kind hard choose. Since it appears that this is currently too hard of a choose for you and others. It's currently functioning exactly how you are arguing. This is contradictory logic.
That is why I suggested it be subsystem repair vs threat. Because any other way who would not pick threat control over + max hull hp? Thous a easy choose, I don't know of a build that wouldn't in some way benefit from threat reduction or threat +. But many don't need the hull + except for those who need threat +. But threat plus > the hull hp always in the builds that max this stat.
It is not crippling for plus negative threat, which did not exist before this to also have to choose between - threat, and batteries. Not to mention the engi eps trait is now not effected by battery. While threat + did exist , those builds that now have - threat won't all the sudden become worse because they don't have max threat -.
Easy mode isn't that what your suggesting for a build you want ? You have hard choose.. Even though it's easy for me to choose hull over subsystem repair because i have other ways of countering that doesn't mean that subsystem repair isn't a very useful option to me especially since in pvp It's fairly easy to pop all my clears and still get ripped up from drain builds.
In the end we have different styles, different wants. We both want whats best for our builds and we want the easiest solutions don't delude your self into thinking that's not what we aren't arguing about. That's why i think my suggestion is the best of both worlds a compromise.
@kyle223cat
Wouldn't it make more sense to have penetration skills ignore a percentage of the armor rating? For example I have 200 points into armor resistances before diminishing returns apply so why not have it ignore 10% of that number? This would give them the same as diminishing returns tanks suffer from which evens things out. That way if I want to increase my armor skill to 250, even though I won't gain much usable armor, I will be better protected from penetration skills giving me a reason to invest heavily in armor. This would affect heavily armored ships very well while giving almost no benefit against enemies with little or no armor. This could seriously balance things out like a lot.
Am I making sense guys?
So yes, all sources of armor penetration "stack" (to use your parlance), in the sense that all contribute (in concert) towards the target's final damage resistance modifier as applies to your damage, not that one will apply at the expense of all others.
Given my view that both of these skills are incredibly versatile and necessities in most builds, I do approve of them having lower requirements to access on those progression bars. Battery Expertise was always low on those progression bars, but Threat Control being moved to a lower spot as well is very much appreciated.
That being said, here are some things I've noted in the thread for these most recent patch notes that would be better served if they were moved here:
- Have you guys looked into the stat distributions for the Assimilated Deflector Array yet? Currently on Tribble the Assimilated Deflector Array provides no bonuses to Drain Expertise, despite having Power Insulators pre-skill revamp. It seems the Power Insulators skill the deflector previously boosted has been incorrectly rolled into Control Expertise.
- It seems to me that the skill icons for the ground skills are really dull and a lot less vivid than their space counterparts or the specialization skill icons. Even when you have the skill specced into, the icons are noticeably less brighter than other skill icons. I don't know why this is, and I was wondering if you guys would consider this an issue in need of a fix or an intentional design choice?
- The description for the "Improved Flanking Damage" skill on the bottom progression bar for ground skills still doesn't tell exactly how much of a damage boost it provides. This is bothersome when compared to its sister skill "Improved Flanking Resistance" and all other self-boosting skills on that progression bar that do provide exact numbers.
- The "Drain Infection" skill for space also doesn't provide numbers on its tooltip as to how much damage its DoT effect does. This is critical information for many, as damage numbers would let people know if its worth speccing into to enhance their current build(s).
EDIT: I've also noticed that when you hover your mouse cursor over the space skills, you get different icons that pop up, assuming you're an RRF or KDF member. For example, instead of getting that squiggly spiral icon when hovering over an Engineering skill, you'd get the funky 4-pointed singularity swirl that RRF Engineers use or the silhouette of a Klingon Battlecruiser that is used elsewhere in the game as the icon for KDF Engineers.Assuming this is intentional, why don't the base icons for the skill system's skills just have their standard appearances changed to match what pops up. That way RRF and KDF captains don't have Starfleet icons in their skill tree and instead have the faction-appropriate ones.
Isn't that stacking then, which is the opposite of what Borticus said.
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RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
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As a engineer I use batteries a lot (specially lately) to improve my damage output cause the rest of my ship is focusing on tanking. This choice is really too harsh. Points why have been given by other people here.
I agree, I love using batteries (such as reactive armor catalysts) and I'm love having my threat generation.
Ok, I did ask about this earlier without getting an answer.
If Penetration is subtracted from Resistance before diminishing returns are applied that's just HORRIBLY BAD. Bad like never, EVER seek this out. Beyond garbage. The effect is more like a rounding error than a skill. You're just dinking around at the far end of the curve where FIFTY points of penetration can mean a shift of less than 3%.
If Penetration is run through the same diminishing returns equation as Resistance and the resulting percentage is subtracted from the mitigation percentage, then you have an effect to put on your shopping list.
Which is it?
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
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"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
There is a damage resistance curve for negative effects (that includes "ignore resistance rating", "- All Damage Resistance", and other similarly worded powers) and one for positive effects (that includes "+All Energy Resistance Rating" and similarly worded effects). These are separate curves. The results of these two curves are then used to calculate the target's effective resistance versus the attack in question. I believe this fits your second interpretation.
And "Shield Penetration" by passes shield damage resistances...including that from "Shield Hardness" skill?
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