Sorry guys, but I am not going to read every post written above.
Greetings Cryptic Developers, as I have been playing this game for a little over three years, I have gained a great deal of knowledge over the game mechanics, in particular, the skill tree that is being used at present. It has taken me 3 full years and many respecs to finally create an efficient build. And now all of that will be thrown out the window?
Why???
As it stands, I don't agree with the skill tree being changed for something...transient. Yet, it appears that I don't have any choice in this matter during this transition, but to be forced to adapt to these changes.
Now, onto my point, after much trying out the new skill tree system, I have found several problems with the new system. One of them being the starship pets’ clicky ability found on the tactical training skill tree. This ability should be engineer ability on the engineer tree and not on the tactical tree. Not all tactical officers use hangar pets. And as such, not all will be able to use this ability. The role for the tactical skill tree should be based upon defensive/offensive traits, to improve upon traits such as accuracy, crit severity/chance.
Perhaps you could divide up the hangar clicky? keep the improve hangar ship weaponry on the tactical, and move the hangar ship hull improvement to engineering?
In closing, I don't think it is wise to force every player into a 'cookie cutter' build, instead you should allow room for creativity and ingenuity, like for example, by not limiting the choices available. Please do not limit skill points for convenience sake; instead you should make at least 60 points available so that players have more options available.
There is a damage resistance curve for negative effects (that includes "ignore resistance rating", "- All Damage Resistance", and other similarly worded powers) and one for positive effects (that includes "+All Energy Resistance Rating" and similarly worded effects). These are separate curves. The results of these two curves are then used to calculate the target's effective resistance versus the attack in question. I believe this fits your second interpretation.
I can understand both points of view regarding the Engineering 5 point unlock. On one hand, I understand people who are wanting both Threat control and batteries unlock to be separate.
On the other, i can understand that maybe there should be some hard choices for the unlocks, as it might create more diverse builds, but while potentially constraining some players, it might give others some more freedom to think about breaking out of the meta.
My personally, I am a tank/agro captain, and while i do have a RMC, i dont use batteries skill.
In relation to the hanger skills, I believe it is maybe a good idea to have both health and DPS under one unlock. Sometimes i think that this game should have some hard choices, but can understand how this might turn people off.
This is a delicate matter, and while there is quite a local minority on these forums about this, the greater question is how the greater community thinks, and not ones that will just follow the herd.
Interesting times ahead for you Bort, i can understand how this change will be really stressing you out. Keep at it, keep communicating with us how you have been, your almost to launch.
I can understand both points of view regarding the Engineering 5 point unlock. On one hand, I understand people who are wanting both Threat control and batteries unlock to be separate.
On the other, i can understand that maybe there should be some hard choices for the unlocks, as it might create more diverse builds, but while potentially constraining some players, it might give others some more freedom to think about breaking out of the meta.
My personally, I am a tank/agro captain, and while i do have a RMC, i dont use batteries skill.
In relation to the hanger skills, I believe it is maybe a good idea to have both health and DPS under one unlock. Sometimes i think that this game should have some hard choices, but can understand how this might turn people off.
This is a delicate matter, and while there is quite a local minority on these forums about this, the greater question is how the greater community thinks, and not ones that will just follow the herd.
Interesting times ahead for you Bort, i can understand how this change will be really stressing you out. Keep at it, keep communicating with us how you have been, your almost to launch.
As a tactical captain, i find that the first clicky on the tactical tree to be completely useless as I fly a escort. Perhaps the hangar ability could be divided up? This would definitely provide one of those 'hard choices' that you speak of. If they were to do this, i would be on board with this change.
As a tactical captain, i find that the first clicky on the tactical tree to be completely useless as I fly a escort. Perhaps the hangar ability could be divided up? This would definitely provide one of those 'hard choices' that you speak of. If they were to do this, i would be on board with this change.
As a tactical captain, i find that the first clicky on the tactical tree to be completely useless as I fly a escort. Perhaps the hangar ability could be divided up? This would definitely provide one of those 'hard choices' that you speak of. If they were to do this, i would be on board with this change.
I encourage you to read page 1 of this thread .
Ah, yes, ok, thanks for this, this gives me more information to work with, let me clarify what i mean.
This ability "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" ought to be divided up between engineering and tactical, not just on tactical alone.
As it is now:
ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
My suggested changes:
ENG 5 = Subsystem Repair / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 15 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
ENG 20 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
"Quote from Casidian" As a tactical captain, i find that the first clicky on the tactical tree to be completely useless as I fly a escort. Perhaps the hangar ability could be divided up? This would definitely provide one of those 'hard choices' that you speak of. If they were to do this, i would be on board with this change. [/quote]
Good point. But i can see how Bort has it hard. He has only some many slots to put something, but has to be careful about what goes where.
I think this might be potentially one of those "no win" things, Despite his best effort and community feedback and discussions, someone is going to feel p***** about what is placed where.
"Quote from Casidian" As a tactical captain, i find that the first clicky on the tactical tree to be completely useless as I fly a escort. Perhaps the hangar ability could be divided up? This would definitely provide one of those 'hard choices' that you speak of. If they were to do this, i would be on board with this change.
"Quote from Foxman00" Good point. But i can see how Bort has it hard. He has only some many slots to put something, but has to be careful about what goes where.
I think this might be potentially one of those "no win" things, Despite his best effort and community feedback and discussions, someone is going to feel p***** about what is placed where.
[/quote]
Ah, yes, this is what I am trying to address in my post above. Thanks Foxman for your thoughts!
Is "Shield Hardness" (as shield damage resistance) used to bring down the Total Damage BEFORE the direct damage to shields and the "bleed through" damage to hull is calculated?
And "Shield Penetration" by passes shield damage resistances...including that from "Shield Hardness" skill?
Shield Hardness decreases the damage your shields take by increasing your shield resistance. It has no effect on the amount of damage hull takes directly, though it may influence it by keeping your shields up longer, and it does not affect the bleedthrough percentage.
Shield penetration increases the amount of bleedthrough your weapons have. It has no direct interaction with resistances.
As it is now:
ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
My suggested changes:
ENG 5 = Subsystem Repair / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 15 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
ENG 20 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
Your thoughts?
Edit:
Here is an alternative proposal to my previous post.
ENG 5 = Subsystem Repair / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 15 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
ENG 20 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 15 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
SCI 20 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
So that's why shield penetration screws us so badly? Can we please get that changed to have shield resistances apply BEFORE penetration is calculated? This is wrecking shields a lot, it almost isn't worth equipping them in certain situations I've been there done that.
Here is an alternative to the present skill tree.
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
There's a reason why they moved Hangars and Threat control early up in the skill tree:
Carriers (which arguably gets the most from the hangar nodes) do not generally spec that high into Tac.
Tanking builds (which arguable get the most from Threat Control) do not generally spec that high into Tac.
So overall, those changes you propose will break a fair amount of builds. In fact, they changed it to something similar to what you listed a few patches back, and it didn't work out well, so they reverted Threat and Hangar skills back earlier into the tree with the most recent patch.
I am with @rakhona, @iusasset, and @mandoknight89 here that Threat/Batteries is too much of a choice for tank builds. I do like @nikeix's suggestion to swap Threat Control with Hangar Health though.
Here is an alternative to the present skill tree.
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
There's a reason why they moved Hangars and Threat control early up in the skill tree:
Carriers (which arguably gets the most from the hangar nodes) do not generally spec that high into Tac.
Tanking builds (which arguable get the most from Threat Control) do not generally spec that high into Tac.
So overall, those changes you propose will break a fair amount of builds. In fact, they changed it to something similar to what you listed a few patches back, and it didn't work out well, so they reverted Threat and Hangar skills back earlier into the tree with the most recent patch.
I am with @rakhona, @iusasset, and @mandoknight89 here that Threat/Batteries is too much of a choice for tank builds. I do like @nikeix's suggestion to swap Threat Control with Hangar Health though.
No matter how we cut it, these proposed changes is going to break many builds here, and not the just tank and carrier builds, I am speaking about all ship builds.
Edit:
We've got to compromise somewhere, so why don't we discuss it?
Here is an alternative to the present skill tree.
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
There's a reason why they moved Hangars and Threat control early up in the skill tree:
Carriers (which arguably gets the most from the hangar nodes) do not generally spec that high into Tac.
Tanking builds (which arguable get the most from Threat Control) do not generally spec that high into Tac.
So overall, those changes you propose will break a fair amount of builds. In fact, they changed it to something similar to what you listed a few patches back, and it didn't work out well, so they reverted Threat and Hangar skills back earlier into the tree with the most recent patch.
I am with @rakhona, @iusasset, and @mandoknight89 here that Threat/Batteries is too much of a choice for tank builds. I do like @nikeix's suggestion to swap Threat Control with Hangar Health though.
No matter how we cut it, these proposed changes is going to break many builds here, and not the just tank and carrier builds, I am speaking about all ship builds.
Edit:
We've got to compromise somewhere, so why don't we discuss it?
I believe where we are now is the compromise. The next compromise is to split Threat and Batteries to different choices.
well, since the DPS wizards and number crunchers have long ago determined that penetration (at least the hull version) is awesome, i'd say it works along the latter lines
Yes, but this was on Holodeck, not Tribble. I'm not able to do the same hits/crits on Tribble as I can on Holodeck with the exact same build on the exact same targets w/ the exact same buffs/debuffs. CSA cube hunting for example.
well, since the DPS wizards and number crunchers have long ago determined that penetration (at least the hull version) is awesome, i'd say it works along the latter lines
Yes, but this was on Holodeck, not Tribble. I'm not able to do the same hits/crits on Tribble as I can on Holodeck with the exact same build on the exact same targets w/ the exact same buffs/debuffs. CSA cube hunting for example.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Here is an alternative to the present skill tree.
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
There's a reason why they moved Hangars and Threat control early up in the skill tree:
Carriers (which arguably gets the most from the hangar nodes) do not generally spec that high into Tac.
Tanking builds (which arguable get the most from Threat Control) do not generally spec that high into Tac.
So overall, those changes you propose will break a fair amount of builds. In fact, they changed it to something similar to what you listed a few patches back, and it didn't work out well, so they reverted Threat and Hangar skills back earlier into the tree with the most recent patch.
I am with @rakhona, @iusasset, and @mandoknight89 here that Threat/Batteries is too much of a choice for tank builds. I do like @nikeix's suggestion to swap Threat Control with Hangar Health though.
No matter how we cut it, these proposed changes is going to break many builds here, and not the just tank and carrier builds, I am speaking about all ship builds.
Edit:
We've got to compromise somewhere, so why don't we discuss it?
I believe where we are now is the compromise. The next compromise is to split Threat and Batteries to different choices.
I respectfully disagree with you. There is no balance for non-carrier tactical builds, as it is right now on tribble, I have no use for "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" as I do not use carriers. All this does is just leaves an option that i can never use.
well, since the DPS wizards and number crunchers have long ago determined that penetration (at least the hull version) is awesome, i'd say it works along the latter lines
Yes, but this was on Holodeck, not Tribble. I'm not able to do the same hits/crits on Tribble as I can on Holodeck with the exact same build on the exact same targets w/ the exact same buffs/debuffs. CSA cube hunting for example.
irregardless, crypticspartan already confirmed it was the latter from nikex's post - or at least as far as he was able to understand it
That is factored in, as I do the CSA run using only KLW, APA, APO, TF, IF, TS3 Quantum Phase, HY3 Neutronic, and the Quantum Warhead Module w/ a full clip. I am the only one on the target.
Unless I missed something, I should be very close to my performance, between Tribble and Holodeck.
As it is now:
ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
My suggested changes:
ENG 5 = Subsystem Repair / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 15 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
ENG 20 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
Your thoughts?
Edit:
Here is an alternative proposal to my previous post.
ENG 5 = Subsystem Repair / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 15 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
ENG 20 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 15 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
SCI 20 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
My take on this is that anything in the unlock nodes that was in the old skill system as a distinct ability that could be given points can't be placed as an either/or choice with another thing in the nodes that was the same, or it violates the "players lose nothing" part of the discussion. In other words, Batteries, Subsystem Repair and Sector Space Speed all need to be on different nodes, since you could choose to put points in all of them before this revamp. Players are going to lose a bit of the fine control over their points, but they definitely should not lose the ability to spec into all of the things that they could under the previous system, even if the numbers will come out somewhat differently.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
@casidien that's why swapping Hangar Health with Threat Control makes sense. Almost every one has use for Threat Control and Batteries. Doing that swap will work for everyone including standard builds, Torp builds, Sci builds and Tank builds.
As it is now:
ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
My suggested changes:
ENG 5 = Subsystem Repair / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 15 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
ENG 20 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
Your thoughts?
Edit:
Here is an alternative proposal to my previous post.
ENG 5 = Subsystem Repair / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 15 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
ENG 20 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 15 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
SCI 20 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
My take on this is that anything in the unlock nodes that was in the old skill system as a distinct ability that could be given points can't be placed as an either/or choice with another thing in the nodes that was the same, or it violates the "players lose nothing" part of the discussion. In other words, Batteries, Subsystem Repair and Sector Space Speed all need to be on different nodes, since you could choose to put points in all of them before this revamp. Players are going to lose a bit of the fine control over their points, but they definitely should not lose the ability to spec into all of the things that they could under the previous system, even if the numbers will come out somewhat differently.
We've got to come to some kind of compromise that we can all agree to.
Here is another alternative to what we have.
ENG 5 = Battery Expertise / Subsystem Repair
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
SCI 15 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
@casidien that's why swapping Hangar Health with Threat Control makes sense. Almost every one has use for Threat Control and Batteries. Doing that swap will work for everyone including standard builds, Torp builds, Sci builds and Tank builds.
I am interested in seeing your ideas, would you please provide them?
Sama skill unlocks, just swap Threat Control and Hangar Health's spots. Doing so will work with most if not all endgame builds.
Moving Threat or Hangar abilities way too high on the tree will hurt more endgame builds and that does not make it worthwhile for adjusting those to accommodate leveling builds.
Sama skill unlocks, just swap Threat Control and Hangar Health's spots. Doing so will work with most if not all endgame builds.
Moving Threat or Hangar abilities way too high on the tree will hurt more endgame builds and that does not make it worthwhile for adjusting those to accommodate leveling builds.
Logic dictates that we must compromise in our search for balance. As it is right now, having "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" in the first tier will do nothing to help tactical captains who do not fly carriers.
Like I said, swap Hangar Health with Threat Control. Tac 5 will be Hangar Damage/Threat Control while for Eng it will be Batteries/Hangar Health.
I think that brings better balance for both meta and niche builds nicely. Unlike yours which will alienate +/- Threat builds and carriers.
That still does not bring balance as it still forces tactical players who do not fly carriers to use something that is completely irrelevant to their builds.
Please provide a better solution.
Here is the current chart that is in present use, please modify this with your idea and post it.
• ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
Edit:
This is my proposed chart.
ENG 5 = Battery Expertise / Subsystem Repair
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
SCI 15 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
Edit:
Ok, compromise, here is a modified version of my previous chart
ENG 5 = Battery Expertise / Subsystem Repair
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
SCI 15 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
About the shield penetration... So self modulating fire space trait adds 50% shield penetration on crit? Beam overload always crits, beam overload doffs add 35% shield penetration. One of the rep traits adds more. Is there any way to make shield hardness counteract 85-90% shield penetration? I know this game caters to mostly pve, but I imagine reworking his mechanic would not adversely effect pve play.
Like I said, swap Hangar Health with Threat Control. Tac 5 will be Hangar Damage/Threat Control while for Eng it will be Batteries/Hangar Health.
I think that brings better balance for both meta and niche builds nicely. Unlike yours which will alienate +/- Threat builds and carriers.
That still does not bring balance as it still forces tactical players who do not fly carriers to use something that is completely irrelevant to their builds.
Please provide a better solution.
Ummm, what? What are Tactical Captains being forced into, exactly? As I and many, many others have stated in this thread so far, Battery Expertise and Threat Control are universally useful for ALL builds, regardless of whether they're Healers, Tanks, or DPSers. Neither of those are irrelevant, and are far from useless to "tactical players who do not fly carriers".
Putting those two skills and hangar pet skills too high up in the skill tree and/or forcing players to choose between them and other very desirable skills is much more limiting to players. A person looking to make a Tanking build is not going to spec heavily into Tactical, and is more likely than not going to put most of their skill points into Engineering and Science. Most Carriers are Science-focused, and as a result someone who specializes in Carriers will spec the bulk of their points into Science and Engineering. By putting those skills too far up in the skill tree they become useless to the builds that would have benefitted the most from them, essentially making them weaker options.
And like I and others have said before, Battery Expertise is beneficial to everyone, and so putting it too high up in a skill tree would just put it out of reach for most builds. In all honesty Threat Control, Battery Expertise, Sector Space Travel Speed, Transwarp Recharge, Hangar Pet Health, and Hangar Pet Damage should all be on the first level of those unlocks. I fully agree with @e30ernest, just switch Hangar Health with Threat Control and all parties will be satisfied.
I still don't get how you think Battery Expertise and Threat Control are irrelevant to "non-carrier flying Tactical players" though...
Comments
Greetings Cryptic Developers, as I have been playing this game for a little over three years, I have gained a great deal of knowledge over the game mechanics, in particular, the skill tree that is being used at present. It has taken me 3 full years and many respecs to finally create an efficient build. And now all of that will be thrown out the window?
Why???
As it stands, I don't agree with the skill tree being changed for something...transient. Yet, it appears that I don't have any choice in this matter during this transition, but to be forced to adapt to these changes.
Now, onto my point, after much trying out the new skill tree system, I have found several problems with the new system. One of them being the starship pets’ clicky ability found on the tactical training skill tree. This ability should be engineer ability on the engineer tree and not on the tactical tree. Not all tactical officers use hangar pets. And as such, not all will be able to use this ability. The role for the tactical skill tree should be based upon defensive/offensive traits, to improve upon traits such as accuracy, crit severity/chance.
Perhaps you could divide up the hangar clicky? keep the improve hangar ship weaponry on the tactical, and move the hangar ship hull improvement to engineering?
In closing, I don't think it is wise to force every player into a 'cookie cutter' build, instead you should allow room for creativity and ingenuity, like for example, by not limiting the choices available. Please do not limit skill points for convenience sake; instead you should make at least 60 points available so that players have more options available.
Thank you for your time.
Awesome. Thank you so much for clarifying that
On the other, i can understand that maybe there should be some hard choices for the unlocks, as it might create more diverse builds, but while potentially constraining some players, it might give others some more freedom to think about breaking out of the meta.
My personally, I am a tank/agro captain, and while i do have a RMC, i dont use batteries skill.
In relation to the hanger skills, I believe it is maybe a good idea to have both health and DPS under one unlock. Sometimes i think that this game should have some hard choices, but can understand how this might turn people off.
This is a delicate matter, and while there is quite a local minority on these forums about this, the greater question is how the greater community thinks, and not ones that will just follow the herd.
Interesting times ahead for you Bort, i can understand how this change will be really stressing you out. Keep at it, keep communicating with us how you have been, your almost to launch.
As a tactical captain, i find that the first clicky on the tactical tree to be completely useless as I fly a escort. Perhaps the hangar ability could be divided up? This would definitely provide one of those 'hard choices' that you speak of. If they were to do this, i would be on board with this change.
I encourage you to read page 1 of this thread
Ah, yes, ok, thanks for this, this gives me more information to work with, let me clarify what i mean.
This ability "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" ought to be divided up between engineering and tactical, not just on tactical alone.
This is what I had been trying to address.
As it is now:
ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
My suggested changes:
ENG 5 = Subsystem Repair / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 15 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
ENG 20 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
Your thoughts?
"Quote from Casidian" As a tactical captain, i find that the first clicky on the tactical tree to be completely useless as I fly a escort. Perhaps the hangar ability could be divided up? This would definitely provide one of those 'hard choices' that you speak of. If they were to do this, i would be on board with this change. [/quote]
Good point. But i can see how Bort has it hard. He has only some many slots to put something, but has to be careful about what goes where.
I think this might be potentially one of those "no win" things, Despite his best effort and community feedback and discussions, someone is going to feel p***** about what is placed where.
"Quote from Foxman00" Good point. But i can see how Bort has it hard. He has only some many slots to put something, but has to be careful about what goes where.
I think this might be potentially one of those "no win" things, Despite his best effort and community feedback and discussions, someone is going to feel p***** about what is placed where.
[/quote]
Ah, yes, this is what I am trying to address in my post above. Thanks Foxman for your thoughts!
Shield Hardness decreases the damage your shields take by increasing your shield resistance. It has no effect on the amount of damage hull takes directly, though it may influence it by keeping your shields up longer, and it does not affect the bleedthrough percentage.
Shield penetration increases the amount of bleedthrough your weapons have. It has no direct interaction with resistances.
Edit:
Here is an alternative proposal to my previous post.
ENG 5 = Subsystem Repair / Battery Expertise
ENG 10 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 15 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
ENG 20 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 15 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
SCI 20 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
There's a reason why they moved Hangars and Threat control early up in the skill tree:
So overall, those changes you propose will break a fair amount of builds. In fact, they changed it to something similar to what you listed a few patches back, and it didn't work out well, so they reverted Threat and Hangar skills back earlier into the tree with the most recent patch.
I am with @rakhona, @iusasset, and @mandoknight89 here that Threat/Batteries is too much of a choice for tank builds. I do like @nikeix's suggestion to swap Threat Control with Hangar Health though.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
No matter how we cut it, these proposed changes is going to break many builds here, and not the just tank and carrier builds, I am speaking about all ship builds.
Edit:
We've got to compromise somewhere, so why don't we discuss it?
I believe where we are now is the compromise. The next compromise is to split Threat and Batteries to different choices.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Yes, but this was on Holodeck, not Tribble. I'm not able to do the same hits/crits on Tribble as I can on Holodeck with the exact same build on the exact same targets w/ the exact same buffs/debuffs. CSA cube hunting for example.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
and you don't think this http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1212502/bug-strengthened-strengths-resistible-resists-fixed-on-tribble-3-3 might have something to do with that? most of those big hits/crits were probably from that bug, and the fact it's fixed on tribble is probably why you aren't getting the same results
irregardless, crypticspartan already confirmed it was the latter from nikex's post - or at least as far as he was able to understand it
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I respectfully disagree with you. There is no balance for non-carrier tactical builds, as it is right now on tribble, I have no use for "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" as I do not use carriers. All this does is just leaves an option that i can never use.
That is factored in, as I do the CSA run using only KLW, APA, APO, TF, IF, TS3 Quantum Phase, HY3 Neutronic, and the Quantum Warhead Module w/ a full clip. I am the only one on the target.
Unless I missed something, I should be very close to my performance, between Tribble and Holodeck.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
My take on this is that anything in the unlock nodes that was in the old skill system as a distinct ability that could be given points can't be placed as an either/or choice with another thing in the nodes that was the same, or it violates the "players lose nothing" part of the discussion. In other words, Batteries, Subsystem Repair and Sector Space Speed all need to be on different nodes, since you could choose to put points in all of them before this revamp. Players are going to lose a bit of the fine control over their points, but they definitely should not lose the ability to spec into all of the things that they could under the previous system, even if the numbers will come out somewhat differently.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
We've got to come to some kind of compromise that we can all agree to.
Here is another alternative to what we have.
ENG 5 = Battery Expertise / Subsystem Repair
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
SCI 15 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
Edit:
Do you have any better ideas???
I am interested in seeing your ideas, would you please provide them?
Moving Threat or Hangar abilities way too high on the tree will hurt more endgame builds and that does not make it worthwhile for adjusting those to accommodate leveling builds.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Logic dictates that we must compromise in our search for balance. As it is right now, having "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" in the first tier will do nothing to help tactical captains who do not fly carriers.
Again, do you have any better ideas?
I think that brings better balance for both meta and niche builds nicely. Unlike yours which will alienate +/- Threat builds and carriers.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
That still does not bring balance as it still forces tactical players who do not fly carriers to use something that is completely irrelevant to their builds.
Please provide a better solution.
Here is the current chart that is in present use, please modify this with your idea and post it.
• ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
Edit:
This is my proposed chart.
ENG 5 = Battery Expertise / Subsystem Repair
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
SCI 15 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Accuracy / Defense
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
Edit:
Ok, compromise, here is a modified version of my previous chart
ENG 5 = Battery Expertise / Subsystem Repair
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
SCI 15 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
Putting those two skills and hangar pet skills too high up in the skill tree and/or forcing players to choose between them and other very desirable skills is much more limiting to players. A person looking to make a Tanking build is not going to spec heavily into Tactical, and is more likely than not going to put most of their skill points into Engineering and Science. Most Carriers are Science-focused, and as a result someone who specializes in Carriers will spec the bulk of their points into Science and Engineering. By putting those skills too far up in the skill tree they become useless to the builds that would have benefitted the most from them, essentially making them weaker options.
And like I and others have said before, Battery Expertise is beneficial to everyone, and so putting it too high up in a skill tree would just put it out of reach for most builds. In all honesty Threat Control, Battery Expertise, Sector Space Travel Speed, Transwarp Recharge, Hangar Pet Health, and Hangar Pet Damage should all be on the first level of those unlocks. I fully agree with @e30ernest, just switch Hangar Health with Threat Control and all parties will be satisfied.
I still don't get how you think Battery Expertise and Threat Control are irrelevant to "non-carrier flying Tactical players" though...