Let me see if I can sum up. At this point the ONLY issues anyone has brought forward with the Skill System Revamp are~
- Some of the small icons still need to be adjusted for non-Fed captains.
- Concerns about the ENG 5 and TAC 5 unlocks which we have a working solution for that solves both problems at the same time.
- An existing gameplay balance issue involving stacking shield penetration effects (making time-to-kill in PvP a sick joke and leaving Bosses to cook-in-its-own-shields in PvE ) which could be exacerbated by the new shield penetration nodes (and which could potentially be resolved with shield penetration stacking being subject to diminishing returns).
- My personal crusade to have the initial Energy Weapon/Projectile Weapon Damage nodes merged for reasons of setting fidelity. Unfortunately no suitable replacements for the resulting empty nodes have been found.
- Some complaints "why are we even doing a revamp?"
Is that it? Have I missed anyone? Because if that's all we're down to we're getting very close to stamp it [Good] and ship it.
- My personal crusade to have the initial Energy Weapon/Projectile Weapon Damage nodes merged for reasons of setting fidelity. Unfortunately no suitable replacements for the resulting empty nodes have been found.
I still think "build around crits"/"don't build around crits" would be a good...ish replacement in the unlock path, at least. Crits are probably still too appealing, but I don't think we have much choice with needing to a take a energy/torpedo skill on builds that don't use them.
Hell, what about adding Proton damage? It kinda had a false start with the Dyson stuff, with Radiation being the new added damage baby.
Example unlock path:
- Weapon Critical Damage/Proton Damage added to all weapon hits
- Weapon Critical Chance/All Weapon Damage Increase
My crusade's not about the path unlocks. It's in regard to the first 6 Tactical nodes which give raw Directed Energy Damage and raw Projectile Damage. It's a set-up that immediately teaches new players that building lore-appropriate energy weapons AND torpedoes hybrids (like every hero ship in the shows ever) is dumb because it costs you twice as many skill picks as building all torp or all energy.
I'm actually in favor of the current structure for tactical unlocks with a Projectile [CrtH]/[CrtD] choice followed by the Energy [CrtH]/[CrtD] choice. That overall structure encourages the use of projectiles which every ship can mount if the player chooses, and then it encourages hybrids. At this point pure energy (and we all know I'm talking about BFAW/beam-boats) are wildly overrepresented and basically get to be last in line for nice things.
That's a different way of looking at it, I'm not sure if I agree. And I certainly hear you on BFAW builds being over represented. Hopefully Long Range Targeting Sensors helps there, but I'm afraid it'll just make beams even better.
All of my builds run torpedoes, so I'd certainly welcome the merging of those skills. At the same time, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with them being separate, allowing specialization. (There's been a surprising, to me, number of complaints about the merger of the drain/control/kit skills, in spite of only gaining from it.)
How about combining the Energy/Projectile Weapons Training power thing.....then separating Shield Pen into Shield Pen for Kinetic or Energy? And Armor Pen on Kinetic or Energy? I am not even sure that is possible in the program.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
@nikeix
Actually Nikeix they are putting in things to encourage hybridization. For example there is the "Supercharged weapons Trait" which makes torpedoes add to energy weapons, as well as the "Weapon System Synergy" trait. which makes energy weapons help torpedoes.
The main reason people don't use "both" has very little to do with the expense of the skills in the skill tree. You can easily spec into both. Having to chose one or the other has always been a straw man argument. Its "not being able to get everything else as well" that makes it a choice.
You have plenty of points to max out a lot of different skills. You just have to make a choice as to which ones to do. You can chose between raw power, energy weapons, exotic damage, hull strength , torpedoes, shields, control effects, and tactical maneuvering. You can max out 2 or 3 easily you just cant get them all.
The REAL reason that people don't usually do both energy weapons and torpedoes is quite simply items.
Specifically: Tactical consoles.
People stack as many tactical consoles of one type as possible. You have slots for up to 5, and you can chose to go to all one type of damage or split between two.
You have up to 8 weapon slots. Simple math at this point. you can chose to have all 5 consoles buffing one type of weapon by up to 37.5% each or 187.5% (epic mark 15 damage type buffs) you can split it up to a 112.5% and 70% buff on two types of weapons.
If you have 8 weapons and all are the one type your total damage buff is
(5x37.5x8) /8 = 187.5%
If you split your weapons to 6 of your primary type and 2 of your secondary:
((3 x 37.5 x 6) + (2 x 37.5 x 2)) / 8 = Your damage output is increased by 103%%
Which do you do , buff by 187% by 103% . It loses nearly half its efect
The problem is not the skill tree, the order of skills or the choices you have to make. The problem is simply the math of the tactical consoles. Because they are a single buff type, and they stack without diminishing returns, you are forced to do ether one type of damage, or your total potential is half of what everyone else can do.
Ships with less tactical consoles can be more flexible of course but they are supposed to make up for the damage in other ways with exotics or better tank ability.
The new skill system is adequately balanced for cost/benefit ratio. If you want hybrid builds to be effective ask for dual buffing tactical consoles that are not nerfed on both damage types. Buff them both, fully because they only affect the weapon slots that are of the right "type" anyhow.
Because there is no stacking penalty or diminishing return, and really not much penalty for using all one type anything else is making me chose to gimp one or more of my weapon slots to be not as strong.
I would love to see the introduction of a Phaser + Photon, or Disruptor + Quantom, Plasma + Plasma Poj console or even beam + torp, or cannon + Torp consoles. But without that sort of itemization, the dual weapon builds are just not going to be overly viable.
Yes, I know about the traits (4 of my 5 high level captains have unlocked and slot them). Before I go off on a rant about how it's absolutely NOT a strawman that "all-one-type ships can maximize their skill contribution for base damage to all their weapons for 3 points and put 3 points somewhere else compared to hybrid builds" because reality wins what argument for me, can you tell me one thing?
You're arguing in defense of the status quo. Why? Yes, things work. But they could manifestly work BETTER. What do you get out of saying, "nah, we shouldn't strive to be more like the source material."? There are a hundred places where this goal could be advanced -- like consoles -- but this is the one and only place that's up for grabs right now. You do not get to make changes at whim on a Live game. This revamp creates a window and I want to throw hybrids through it (because who doesn't love the word defenestrate? )
I am respectfully disagreeing, There should be a cost to energy weapons and torps and it should be separate because you don't want people being 100 % at everything, so you could do both energy and torps but it might mean you are less good at exotic, or don't have as good shields or some other reasonable cost.
The straw man portion is that you have to chose one or the other. Manifestly untrue. You can easily chose both. You just have to give up something somewhere else.
The straw man portion is that you are standing up the prevalence of people with b-faw and saying it's because of the cost of the skills.
Yes there are a lot of bfaw. no they generaly don't add torps, but the argument that its BECAUSE of the skill cost is where it breaks down. They could easily sacrifice a bit more shields or hull and afford both.
THey generally don't add in a torp because even with the synergy skills the loss of buff as demonstrated by the math above is too great.
So yes. I am arguing that the skills should have a cost. And yes I am of the opinion that the game should make it more viable to do hybred builds with out sacrificing half your total potential.
I am also saying that removing the skill costs so you can do beams torps cannons control and everything else all together, would be bad.
*Edited to add second half cause I hit post too soon*
The straw man portion is that you have to chose one or the other.
Ooooh, so we're talking about your straw man, because I. Never. Said. That. What I have always said is doing it costs more than single-type ships pay to have all their weapons fully boosted in that fashion.
Awesome. On the same page. Opportunity costs are real in finite-resource systems. Moving on.
I am respectfully disagreeing, There should be a cost to energy weapons and torps and it should be separate because you don't want people being 100 % at everything, so you could do both energy and torps but it might mean you are less good at exotic, or don't have as good shields or some other reasonable cost.
That's a fine game design argument. I LIKE game design arguments. But it's also flatly contradicted by the setting... STO is both a game and a reflection of the property it's named for. Not once do we see a hero ships that's superior for lacking half the hybrid arsenal. In game, right now, those ships perform less well than single-type ships for reasons scattered all over the system *skills, consoles, Boff abilities, etc...). There's some lapses in fidelity to source so when you have a chance to...
- improve hybrids in a way that is not likely to catapult them past the single-type ships
- not going to get subverted by the single type-ships to make them even more powerful
- can do it within the context of a larger reshuffling
- deliver it as a BUFF (because people like those!)
...then I'm inclined to jump on that opportunity . Even if I completely agree consoles are a place where more gains could be made, I'll take the gains I can get when I can get them. The perfect really is the enemy of the good.
My impression is Borticus is even onboard in spirit and the stumbling block has always been the replacement nodes, not the idea of the merger itself. ((shrug)) I can happily make do with how things stand now. I've had plenty of input that's been adopted. I understand my hopes on this front are slim and shrinking with the deadline coming at us at about Warp 8.
It's not just hybridization (though that would be good because canon), but I think merging energy and kinetic nodes opens up the possibility for players to try out different play styles without the need for a respec.
Ideal builds will still be specialized to one weapon type or another (due to traits, BOff skills and equipment slots) so the need to choose will still be there. But at least that choice won't cost you money (through respecs).
I really wish the devs moved the game towards more hybrid builds to fit the source material better. The devs already showed some intent to push hybrid builds (through the command tree and several traits) so it's only logical that they do the same in the skill tree. Maybe down the line they can also create more hybrid consoles (I'd say the R&D consoles are the first set of "hybrid" consoles) since they've already started going that route.
There are a lot of nice suggestions in the "challenge accepted" thread but none seem to have passed @borticuscryptic's standards. Cryptic has shown they are willing to make this change, as long as we find a good way to do it.
Thank you for clarifying, I will compromise and agree with this.
We have consensus! Swapping Hanger Health to ENG 5 and Threat Control to TAC 5 brings about a golden age of universal joy and prosperity. Or at least, interest in some builds focused on things other than raw weapon DPS.
Now we just need to convince the one and only person in the room who actually gets to vote ...
Let me see if I can sum up. At this point the ONLY issues anyone has brought forward with the Skill System Revamp are~
- Some of the small icons still need to be adjusted for non-Fed captains.
- Concerns about the ENG 5 and TAC 5 unlocks which we have a working solution for that solves both problems at the same time.
- An existing gameplay balance issue involving stacking shield penetration effects (making time-to-kill in PvP a sick joke and leaving Bosses to cook-in-its-own-shields in PvE ) which could be exacerbated by the new shield penetration nodes (and which could potentially be resolved with shield penetration stacking being subject to diminishing returns).
- My personal crusade to have the initial Energy Weapon/Projectile Weapon Damage nodes merged for reasons of setting fidelity. Unfortunately no suitable replacements for the resulting empty nodes have been found.
- Some complaints "why are we even doing a revamp?"
Is that it? Have I missed anyone? Because if that's all we're down to we're getting very close to stamp it [Good] and ship it.
*cough* The nerf to maximum duration of EPS Manifold Efficiency due to the removal of Batteries Expertise scaling in an attempt to remove the outright need for Engineers to take Batteries Expertise. The 15 sec fixed duration successfully removes the need to take the Unlock, but diminishes the Trait overall if you actually cared enough to build for it on Holodeck. Personally, every Engineer I have has a better duration than will be possible if/when the Tribble adjustment goes live.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
• ENG 5 = Hangar Health/ Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Threat Control/ Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
Who else would agree with this?
I just ran through those unlocks on my Delta Recruit on Tribble...and I have to say...I was balking at a couple of points on the current version. Surprise, surprise....and there they are the problem children on your list.
Threat Control and Battery Expertise was hard, I wanted them both. Chose battery since I play solo, except for events...so threat is all on me, anyways. Most of the time.
And the Hangar things, together? I was sitting there going, "What?" (Actually, I have done this every time I came to that choice, no matter where they stick it) Though, I have to say my Nimbus Pirates suddenly became very useful after picking "Hangar Health". Which was nice for a solo artist who is still having problems figuring out shield/hull set ups in this new tree.
So, it looks like I will be stuck at that "Hangar Health/Battery Expertise" point, now. LOL!
Talk about a no-win-scenario...here try figuring out where these unlocks should go!
Moot point now...as a double check of my characters last night on Holodeck showed...only two (out of 6) even had points in "Battery Expertise". (Has my memory gotten this bad?? Really, why wasn't I using my notes?)
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
*cough* The nerf to maximum duration of EPS Manifold Efficiency due to the removal of Batteries Expertise scaling in an attempt to remove the outright need for Engineers to take Batteries Expertise. The 15 sec fixed duration successfully removes the need to take the Unlock, but diminishes the Trait overall if you actually cared enough to build for it on Holodeck. Personally, every Engineer I have has a better duration than will be possible if/when the Tribble adjustment goes live.
Thank you. You are absolutely correct (and I apologize). I had read that a few times but it hadn't stuck with me when I was summing up because I didn't entirely understand it.
Let me see if I can sum up. At this point the ONLY issues anyone has brought forward with the Skill System Revamp are~
- Some of the small icons still need to be adjusted for non-Fed captains.
- Concerns about the ENG 5 and TAC 5 unlocks which we have a working solution for that solves both problems at the same time.
- An existing gameplay balance issue involving stacking shield penetration effects (making time-to-kill in PvP a sick joke and leaving Bosses to cook-in-its-own-shields in PvE ) which could be exacerbated by the new shield penetration nodes (and which could potentially be resolved with shield penetration stacking being subject to diminishing returns).
- My personal crusade to have the initial Energy Weapon/Projectile Weapon Damage nodes merged for reasons of setting fidelity. Unfortunately no suitable replacements for the resulting empty nodes have been found.
- Some complaints "why are we even doing a revamp?"
Is that it? Have I missed anyone? Because if that's all we're down to we're getting very close to stamp it [Good] and ship it.
I think the idea of a firing haste buff that applied to both torpedo's and directed energy weapons was generally though thought to be a reasonable solution to your personal crusade. and while I personally think gameplay is better as is.. it was my suggestion for something that would fit with a good "symmetry" and wouldn't break game play.
I think there is also still one question on the ground side as far as out of combat only regeneration being silly,
There and a couple of itemization issues of items that still have old buffs that don't exist any more. I think they are getting rare now.
Someone asked me before about Resilient Shields (which aren't actually changing on Tribble, as far as I've been able to tell thus far - the tooltip is just more descriptive of what happens), and also about kinetic damage to shields...
The only thing to really know about resilient shields is that all things being equal (i.e., equipping a resilient shield vs any other type of shield), you effectively take less hull damage, which is why - as a general rule - they're the superior shield type. I can dig up some literature on why that is, if people are still questioning the mechanics, though...
As for the torpedo/beam question, tactical consoles aren't actually why you'd forgo a mixed torpedo/beam build. It's shortage of tactical bridge officer seats and shortage of trait slots that have the biggest impact, followed closely by firing uptime/rate. What do I mean by that? Well say you're flying a ship that only has a LtC Tac and a Lt Tac (most T6 Cruisers get for the former, some the latter). This gives you 5 BO options: so there might be room for BFAW3 and TS2 (or THY2, whatever), but now you only have 3 seats (2 ensigns, 1 Lt) for trying to fit your Attack Patterns and Tactical Teams, and unless you're running with consistent means of CD reduction/recharge, you're losing uptime on most of those powers, too.
Some of the new skills actually go a ways towards fixing this problem so that you can mix beams/torps more efficiently, but there's still going to be an optimization gap. That doesn't mean you can't mix them effectively now (or won't be able to mix them effectively in S11.5), but how to do it isn't immediately obvious, and I think people try going about it the wrong way (thinking that the solution is fixing tactical consoles and skill bonuses, rather than the interaction of bridge officers (particularly weapon enhancements and debuffs), cooldowns, and traits).
Oh, and my last 2 cents on the new shield penetration skills - yeah, 10% added shield penetration is really good. It's really not so good that it's going to rock the meta as much as people think that it will: the big sources of shield penetration are already here, have been here for some time, and stacking an extra 10% on top of those doesn't - mathematically - go as far as you'd think (which is not to say it isn't generally the best investment for skill selections over what's otherwise available if your goal is killing targets; it still is).
@dragonsbrethren - your idea of an added flat damage skill to contrast against critical damage is nifty, but it seems like it'd be a TRIBBLE to tune in such a way that it isn't obviously an inferior or superior choice, to be honest, unless it worked like the [Dmg] modifier.
There is also some benefit to mixing weapon types - but that only applies if you do not have a shortage of Tactical BOFFS - like on Escorts.
Beam, Torpedo and Cannon skills lock other skills of their type us. Same thing for Attack Patterns.
For burst damage / spikes, being able to use another damage buff can help you. The usefulness depends however on the buff specific rules.
Beam Overload, Beam Target Subsystem, High Yield Torpedo and Torpedo Spread only boost one weapon attack. So you also only need one weapon to get everything you can get out of these skills.
Cannon Rapid Fire, Cannon Scatter Volley, Beam Fire At Will, Reroute Reserves to Weapons and Surgical Strikes boost multiple weapons (of the type they apply to).
Of course, slotting one weapon not affected by your multi-weapon boost will lower that multi-weapon boosts effectiveness, so you need to carefully evaluate if you don't lose more than you gain from the single-weapon boost.
The "math" behind this, I think, has changed over time. It used to be that the combined energy weapon drain often lowered the effectiveness of too many weapons of the same kind to such an extent that mixing in a single weapon boost was preferable. That is particularly true for torpedoes, since they definitely don't add any drain to your other attacks.
But with the increased availability of energy drain reductions and better overcapping utilization, things shifted towards mono (often beam) builds.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think I was the one asking about the shields....I think most of my characters are using the Resilient shields from that Solanae set. Because, well, I have it.
I am not one of those "must have Epic everything" and slaving away at that B.S. Nope. I am not one of those that even knows how to figure out what my DPS is (nor do I really care). I can't even figure out one line on that combat log...even though biggest math fanatic on STO tried to explain it to me (using his small words).
All I know is: something isn't the same.
It started right here: it is easier to keep my shields up on Holodeck.
Then, I started noticing more differences between Holodeck and Tribble: hull barely gets scratched (it might go below 75% sometimes on Holodeck but easily fixed, on Tribble I had better watch it more closely). Why was I flying much faster and quicker turning made it easier to control on Holodeck?
What exactly is happening on Tribble?
I tried to pay more attention to it. I definitely see some change to "Brace for Impact"...it just doesn't work as well. "Evasive Maneuvers" doesn't seem to make my ship run as quickly or for as long a distance? Weird.
And I am, finally, coming to a conclusion: That maybe it is not the skill tree. Maybe that it is "something" more.
Now, a week, or maybe two, ago.....I saw that post Borticus made about finding "Resistible Resists"...and some other stuff that was broken and was repeatedly running and refreshing itself, or something. It wasn't quite over my head, but I didn't really think it would effect me? I was thinking all "those people" using all that "fancy stuff" was about to get scr-ewed.
But, now, I am starting to think that "fix" may have done a lot more?
Like mess with more basic stuff: "Brace for Impact", "Evasive Maneuvers", "Emergency Power to Shields", "Engineering Team" "Science Team" "Tac Team" etc.... The low end things that I am using to keep things alive. It isn't just how often it refreshes itself....it may effect the duration...how long those things were up when triggered, too?
It is eye opening. Was I relying on a broken mechanic in the game?
I just don't have the tools to explain it or figure it out.
All I do is move points around the skill tree and see if it changes anything for me on Tribble....and hope I can eventually figure out something. But then even if I could figure it out (LOL!), I don't have the language to be able to describe it to a programmer.
My friend says he is not touching the game once this stuff hits Holodeck....until the analysts can figure it all out how it effects everything on the live server. And the Devs tweak everything, multiple times. And told me to just wait.
But SOMEONE has to say something or no one will know to look UNTIL it goes live.
And a Dev Blog explaining this much clearer would be helpful.
Is anything going to be on You Tube?
This conclusion was based on faulty tree set up on my part while trying out "new stuff" (like "Long Range Sensor" and "Shield Penetration) in the skill tree. I was adjusting too many points OUT of other (more basic) skills to pad the stats for "testing" the new ones...ones I did not have in my Holodeck tree.
Please disregard my previous opinion.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
My shields feel tankier on tribble too, but I don't think that will matter much to me if everything bypasses then still.
My friend mentioned this in the Tribble patch for yesterday: "Resolved an issue that was preventing Shield Hardness skill from correctly improving the damage your shields negate."
But I assured him I still see this happening ... I was testing last night after downloading the big patch from March 30th.
EDIT: OH, excuse me, I just realized YOU were complaining about Shield Penetration. Well, I wouldn't hold your breath for "Shield Hardness" to be the counter for Shield Penetration, when they are still trying to make it do what it is supposed to do. LOL!
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
• ENG 5 = Hangar Health/ Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Threat Control/ Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
Who else would agree with this?
I just ran through those unlocks on my Delta Recruit on Tribble...and I have to say...I was balking at a couple of points on the current version. Surprise, surprise....and there they are the problem children on your list.
Threat Control and Battery Expertise was hard, I wanted them both. Chose battery since I play solo, except for events...so threat is all on me, anyways. Most of the time.
And the Hangar things, together? I was sitting there going, "What?" (Actually, I have done this every time I came to that choice, no matter where they stick it) Though, I have to say my Nimbus Pirates suddenly became very useful after picking "Hangar Health". Which was nice for a solo artist who is still having problems figuring out shield/hull set ups in this new tree.
So, it looks like I will be stuck at that "Hangar Health/Battery Expertise" point, now. LOL!
Talk about a no-win-scenario...here try figuring out where these unlocks should go!
I agree completely, but that was before the developers implemented the changes, however, this is not the case now, as it is now properly balanced. I was on the tribble server just last night, and boy; was i pleased with these changes. Woo hoo! I want to say thank you Cryptic for these awesome changes!
Now I would like to address some issues that I have noticed on the tribble server.
On the holodeck, my ships' (kinetic and energy) resistances are around 41.2. I don't use kinetic/energy resistance consoles, instead i built my ship's resistance upon the skills tree, fleet shields/spire warp cores/impulse engines/deflectors, 5 reputation consoles, and the one of the reputation space traits i use to boost it up is the Romulan reputation trait; auxiliary power trait to defense. That combination allowed me to boost it up to where it is at.
On the tribble server, the stat's have completely changed. Now, my resistances are around 21.5. and I am still using the same ship build, same consoles, same personal space/reputation space trait. Something changed and not for the better. Anyways, I would like @borticuscryptic and the other developers to look into this and see if something is broken.
On the holodeck, my ships' (kinetic and energy) resistances are around 41.2. I don't use kinetic/energy resistance consoles, instead i built my ship's resistance upon the skills tree, fleet shields/spire warp cores/impulse engines/deflectors, 5 reputation consoles, and the one of the reputation space traits i use to boost it up is the Romulan reputation trait; auxiliary power trait to defense. That combination allowed me to boost it up to where it is at.
On the tribble server, the stat's have completely changed. Now, my resistances are around 21.5. and I am still using the ship build, same consoles, same personal space/reputation space trait. Something changed and not for the better. Anyways, I would like @borticuscryptic and the other developers to look into this and see if something is broken.
Can you be more precise about what "this" is that you think is broken? Help us find the needle in your haystack or skills/traits/equipment, please.
With nobody else reporting similar issues, I'm forced to assume that the issue is local to you having overlooked/forgotten something. Until proven otherwise, or additional reports surface with similar claims.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
On the holodeck, my ships' (kinetic and energy) resistances are around 41.2. I don't use kinetic/energy resistance consoles, instead i built my ship's resistance upon the skills tree, fleet shields/spire warp cores/impulse engines/deflectors, 5 reputation consoles, and the one of the reputation space traits i use to boost it up is the Romulan reputation trait; auxiliary power trait to defense. That combination allowed me to boost it up to where it is at.
On the tribble server, the stat's have completely changed. Now, my resistances are around 21.5. and I am still using the ship build, same consoles, same personal space/reputation space trait. Something changed and not for the better. Anyways, I would like @borticuscryptic and the other developers to look into this and see if something is broken.
Can you be more precise about what "this" is that you think is broken? Help us find the needle in your haystack or skills/traits/equipment, please.
With nobody else reporting similar issues, I'm forced to assume that the issue is local to you having overlooked/forgotten something. Until proven otherwise, or additional reports surface with similar claims.
I will do the best i can, I am not a pro, but i will try.
@borticuscryptic I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but here is the information about what i have equipped.
Please note, the stats are no longer the same since the last time i was on the tribble server, so please disregard the original data that i had previously posted.
Here is a listing of the equipment and I have, the traits i have enabled.
Personal space traits:
warp theorist
operative
techie
intense focus
give your all
impact defense specialist
crippling fire
accurate
self-modulating fire
space reputation:
Advanced targeting systems
enhanced armor penetration
precision
auxiliary power configuration: offensive
auxiliary power configuration: defensive
Did you check your trait slots on Tribble? They get reset every time you respec right now, it's a bug.
Open both servers in separate windows and go down the list of EVERY single piece of equipment and traits to make sure the builds are exact. Also check your skill tree on Tribble to make sure you have armor skills maxed out.
Comments
I'd like to put that to a friendly test both on Tribble and Holodeck, please
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
What like a 1v1 against me?
- Some of the small icons still need to be adjusted for non-Fed captains.
- Concerns about the ENG 5 and TAC 5 unlocks which we have a working solution for that solves both problems at the same time.
- An existing gameplay balance issue involving stacking shield penetration effects (making time-to-kill in PvP a sick joke and leaving Bosses to cook-in-its-own-shields in PvE ) which could be exacerbated by the new shield penetration nodes (and which could potentially be resolved with shield penetration stacking being subject to diminishing returns).
- My personal crusade to have the initial Energy Weapon/Projectile Weapon Damage nodes merged for reasons of setting fidelity. Unfortunately no suitable replacements for the resulting empty nodes have been found.
- Some complaints "why are we even doing a revamp?"
Is that it? Have I missed anyone? Because if that's all we're down to we're getting very close to stamp it [Good] and ship it.
I still think "build around crits"/"don't build around crits" would be a good...ish replacement in the unlock path, at least. Crits are probably still too appealing, but I don't think we have much choice with needing to a take a energy/torpedo skill on builds that don't use them.
Hell, what about adding Proton damage? It kinda had a false start with the Dyson stuff, with Radiation being the new added damage baby.
Example unlock path:
- Weapon Critical Damage/Proton Damage added to all weapon hits
- Weapon Critical Chance/All Weapon Damage Increase
I'm actually in favor of the current structure for tactical unlocks with a Projectile [CrtH]/[CrtD] choice followed by the Energy [CrtH]/[CrtD] choice. That overall structure encourages the use of projectiles which every ship can mount if the player chooses, and then it encourages hybrids. At this point pure energy (and we all know I'm talking about BFAW/beam-boats) are wildly overrepresented and basically get to be last in line for nice things.
All of my builds run torpedoes, so I'd certainly welcome the merging of those skills. At the same time, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with them being separate, allowing specialization. (There's been a surprising, to me, number of complaints about the merger of the drain/control/kit skills, in spite of only gaining from it.)
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Actually Nikeix they are putting in things to encourage hybridization. For example there is the "Supercharged weapons Trait" which makes torpedoes add to energy weapons, as well as the "Weapon System Synergy" trait. which makes energy weapons help torpedoes.
The main reason people don't use "both" has very little to do with the expense of the skills in the skill tree. You can easily spec into both. Having to chose one or the other has always been a straw man argument. Its "not being able to get everything else as well" that makes it a choice.
You have plenty of points to max out a lot of different skills. You just have to make a choice as to which ones to do. You can chose between raw power, energy weapons, exotic damage, hull strength , torpedoes, shields, control effects, and tactical maneuvering. You can max out 2 or 3 easily you just cant get them all.
The REAL reason that people don't usually do both energy weapons and torpedoes is quite simply items.
Specifically: Tactical consoles.
People stack as many tactical consoles of one type as possible. You have slots for up to 5, and you can chose to go to all one type of damage or split between two.
You have up to 8 weapon slots. Simple math at this point. you can chose to have all 5 consoles buffing one type of weapon by up to 37.5% each or 187.5% (epic mark 15 damage type buffs) you can split it up to a 112.5% and 70% buff on two types of weapons.
If you have 8 weapons and all are the one type your total damage buff is
(5x37.5x8) /8 = 187.5%
If you split your weapons to 6 of your primary type and 2 of your secondary:
((3 x 37.5 x 6) + (2 x 37.5 x 2)) / 8 = Your damage output is increased by 103%%
Which do you do , buff by 187% by 103% . It loses nearly half its efect
The problem is not the skill tree, the order of skills or the choices you have to make. The problem is simply the math of the tactical consoles. Because they are a single buff type, and they stack without diminishing returns, you are forced to do ether one type of damage, or your total potential is half of what everyone else can do.
Ships with less tactical consoles can be more flexible of course but they are supposed to make up for the damage in other ways with exotics or better tank ability.
The new skill system is adequately balanced for cost/benefit ratio. If you want hybrid builds to be effective ask for dual buffing tactical consoles that are not nerfed on both damage types. Buff them both, fully because they only affect the weapon slots that are of the right "type" anyhow.
Because there is no stacking penalty or diminishing return, and really not much penalty for using all one type anything else is making me chose to gimp one or more of my weapon slots to be not as strong.
I would love to see the introduction of a Phaser + Photon, or Disruptor + Quantom, Plasma + Plasma Poj console or even beam + torp, or cannon + Torp consoles. But without that sort of itemization, the dual weapon builds are just not going to be overly viable.
*edited to normalize for number of weapons*
You're arguing in defense of the status quo. Why? Yes, things work. But they could manifestly work BETTER. What do you get out of saying, "nah, we shouldn't strive to be more like the source material."? There are a hundred places where this goal could be advanced -- like consoles -- but this is the one and only place that's up for grabs right now. You do not get to make changes at whim on a Live game. This revamp creates a window and I want to throw hybrids through it (because who doesn't love the word defenestrate?
The straw man portion is that you have to chose one or the other. Manifestly untrue. You can easily chose both. You just have to give up something somewhere else.
The straw man portion is that you are standing up the prevalence of people with b-faw and saying it's because of the cost of the skills.
Yes there are a lot of bfaw. no they generaly don't add torps, but the argument that its BECAUSE of the skill cost is where it breaks down. They could easily sacrifice a bit more shields or hull and afford both.
THey generally don't add in a torp because even with the synergy skills the loss of buff as demonstrated by the math above is too great.
So yes. I am arguing that the skills should have a cost. And yes I am of the opinion that the game should make it more viable to do hybred builds with out sacrificing half your total potential.
I am also saying that removing the skill costs so you can do beams torps cannons control and everything else all together, would be bad.
*Edited to add second half cause I hit post too soon*
Ooooh, so we're talking about your straw man, because I. Never. Said. That. What I have always said is doing it costs more than single-type ships pay to have all their weapons fully boosted in that fashion.
Awesome. On the same page. Opportunity costs are real in finite-resource systems. Moving on.
That's a fine game design argument. I LIKE game design arguments. But it's also flatly contradicted by the setting... STO is both a game and a reflection of the property it's named for. Not once do we see a hero ships that's superior for lacking half the hybrid arsenal. In game, right now, those ships perform less well than single-type ships for reasons scattered all over the system *skills, consoles, Boff abilities, etc...). There's some lapses in fidelity to source so when you have a chance to...
- improve hybrids in a way that is not likely to catapult them past the single-type ships
- not going to get subverted by the single type-ships to make them even more powerful
- can do it within the context of a larger reshuffling
- deliver it as a BUFF (because people like those!)
...then I'm inclined to jump on that opportunity
My impression is Borticus is even onboard in spirit and the stumbling block has always been the replacement nodes, not the idea of the merger itself. ((shrug)) I can happily make do with how things stand now. I've had plenty of input that's been adopted. I understand my hopes on this front are slim and shrinking with the deadline coming at us at about Warp 8.
But I still dream
Ideal builds will still be specialized to one weapon type or another (due to traits, BOff skills and equipment slots) so the need to choose will still be there. But at least that choice won't cost you money (through respecs).
I really wish the devs moved the game towards more hybrid builds to fit the source material better. The devs already showed some intent to push hybrid builds (through the command tree and several traits) so it's only logical that they do the same in the skill tree. Maybe down the line they can also create more hybrid consoles (I'd say the R&D consoles are the first set of "hybrid" consoles) since they've already started going that route.
There are a lot of nice suggestions in the "challenge accepted" thread but none seem to have passed @borticuscryptic's standards. Cryptic has shown they are willing to make this change, as long as we find a good way to do it.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Threat Control/ Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
Who else would agree with this?
*cough* The nerf to maximum duration of EPS Manifold Efficiency due to the removal of Batteries Expertise scaling in an attempt to remove the outright need for Engineers to take Batteries Expertise. The 15 sec fixed duration successfully removes the need to take the Unlock, but diminishes the Trait overall if you actually cared enough to build for it on Holodeck. Personally, every Engineer I have has a better duration than will be possible if/when the Tribble adjustment goes live.
I just ran through those unlocks on my Delta Recruit on Tribble...and I have to say...I was balking at a couple of points on the current version. Surprise, surprise....and there they are the problem children on your list.
Threat Control and Battery Expertise was hard, I wanted them both. Chose battery since I play solo, except for events...so threat is all on me, anyways. Most of the time.
And the Hangar things, together? I was sitting there going, "What?" (Actually, I have done this every time I came to that choice, no matter where they stick it) Though, I have to say my Nimbus Pirates suddenly became very useful after picking "Hangar Health". Which was nice for a solo artist who is still having problems figuring out shield/hull set ups in this new tree.
So, it looks like I will be stuck at that "Hangar Health/Battery Expertise" point, now. LOL!
Talk about a no-win-scenario...here try figuring out where these unlocks should go!
Moot point now...as a double check of my characters last night on Holodeck showed...only two (out of 6) even had points in "Battery Expertise". (Has my memory gotten this bad?? Really, why wasn't I using my notes?)
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Thank you. You are absolutely correct (and I apologize). I had read that a few times but it hadn't stuck with me when I was summing up because I didn't entirely understand it.
@borticuscryptic any observations from on high?
Sure. Could use the data gathered for comparison between Holodeck & Tribble.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
I think the idea of a firing haste buff that applied to both torpedo's and directed energy weapons was generally though thought to be a reasonable solution to your personal crusade.
I think there is also still one question on the ground side as far as out of combat only regeneration being silly,
There and a couple of itemization issues of items that still have old buffs that don't exist any more. I think they are getting rare now.
This link should help explain some of that (specifically, interaction of torpedoes and shields): https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/2voyri/on_shield_resistance_and_bleedthrough/cok35cu
The only thing to really know about resilient shields is that all things being equal (i.e., equipping a resilient shield vs any other type of shield), you effectively take less hull damage, which is why - as a general rule - they're the superior shield type. I can dig up some literature on why that is, if people are still questioning the mechanics, though...
As for the torpedo/beam question, tactical consoles aren't actually why you'd forgo a mixed torpedo/beam build. It's shortage of tactical bridge officer seats and shortage of trait slots that have the biggest impact, followed closely by firing uptime/rate. What do I mean by that? Well say you're flying a ship that only has a LtC Tac and a Lt Tac (most T6 Cruisers get for the former, some the latter). This gives you 5 BO options: so there might be room for BFAW3 and TS2 (or THY2, whatever), but now you only have 3 seats (2 ensigns, 1 Lt) for trying to fit your Attack Patterns and Tactical Teams, and unless you're running with consistent means of CD reduction/recharge, you're losing uptime on most of those powers, too.
Some of the new skills actually go a ways towards fixing this problem so that you can mix beams/torps more efficiently, but there's still going to be an optimization gap. That doesn't mean you can't mix them effectively now (or won't be able to mix them effectively in S11.5), but how to do it isn't immediately obvious, and I think people try going about it the wrong way (thinking that the solution is fixing tactical consoles and skill bonuses, rather than the interaction of bridge officers (particularly weapon enhancements and debuffs), cooldowns, and traits).
Oh, and my last 2 cents on the new shield penetration skills - yeah, 10% added shield penetration is really good. It's really not so good that it's going to rock the meta as much as people think that it will: the big sources of shield penetration are already here, have been here for some time, and stacking an extra 10% on top of those doesn't - mathematically - go as far as you'd think (which is not to say it isn't generally the best investment for skill selections over what's otherwise available if your goal is killing targets; it still is).
@dragonsbrethren - your idea of an added flat damage skill to contrast against critical damage is nifty, but it seems like it'd be a TRIBBLE to tune in such a way that it isn't obviously an inferior or superior choice, to be honest, unless it worked like the [Dmg] modifier.
Beam, Torpedo and Cannon skills lock other skills of their type us. Same thing for Attack Patterns.
For burst damage / spikes, being able to use another damage buff can help you. The usefulness depends however on the buff specific rules.
Beam Overload, Beam Target Subsystem, High Yield Torpedo and Torpedo Spread only boost one weapon attack. So you also only need one weapon to get everything you can get out of these skills.
Cannon Rapid Fire, Cannon Scatter Volley, Beam Fire At Will, Reroute Reserves to Weapons and Surgical Strikes boost multiple weapons (of the type they apply to).
Of course, slotting one weapon not affected by your multi-weapon boost will lower that multi-weapon boosts effectiveness, so you need to carefully evaluate if you don't lose more than you gain from the single-weapon boost.
The "math" behind this, I think, has changed over time. It used to be that the combined energy weapon drain often lowered the effectiveness of too many weapons of the same kind to such an extent that mixing in a single weapon boost was preferable. That is particularly true for torpedoes, since they definitely don't add any drain to your other attacks.
But with the increased availability of energy drain reductions and better overcapping utilization, things shifted towards mono (often beam) builds.
I am not one of those "must have Epic everything" and slaving away at that B.S. Nope. I am not one of those that even knows how to figure out what my DPS is (nor do I really care). I can't even figure out one line on that combat log...even though biggest math fanatic on STO tried to explain it to me (using his small words).
All I know is: something isn't the same.
It started right here: it is easier to keep my shields up on Holodeck.
Then, I started noticing more differences between Holodeck and Tribble: hull barely gets scratched (it might go below 75% sometimes on Holodeck but easily fixed, on Tribble I had better watch it more closely). Why was I flying much faster and quicker turning made it easier to control on Holodeck?
What exactly is happening on Tribble?
I tried to pay more attention to it. I definitely see some change to "Brace for Impact"...it just doesn't work as well. "Evasive Maneuvers" doesn't seem to make my ship run as quickly or for as long a distance? Weird.
And I am, finally, coming to a conclusion: That maybe it is not the skill tree. Maybe that it is "something" more.
Now, a week, or maybe two, ago.....I saw that post Borticus made about finding "Resistible Resists"...and some other stuff that was broken and was repeatedly running and refreshing itself, or something. It wasn't quite over my head, but I didn't really think it would effect me? I was thinking all "those people" using all that "fancy stuff" was about to get scr-ewed.
But, now, I am starting to think that "fix" may have done a lot more?
Like mess with more basic stuff: "Brace for Impact", "Evasive Maneuvers", "Emergency Power to Shields", "Engineering Team" "Science Team" "Tac Team" etc.... The low end things that I am using to keep things alive. It isn't just how often it refreshes itself....it may effect the duration...how long those things were up when triggered, too?
It is eye opening. Was I relying on a broken mechanic in the game?
I just don't have the tools to explain it or figure it out.
All I do is move points around the skill tree and see if it changes anything for me on Tribble....and hope I can eventually figure out something. But then even if I could figure it out (LOL!), I don't have the language to be able to describe it to a programmer.
My friend says he is not touching the game once this stuff hits Holodeck....until the analysts can figure it all out how it effects everything on the live server. And the Devs tweak everything, multiple times. And told me to just wait.
But SOMEONE has to say something or no one will know to look UNTIL it goes live.
And a Dev Blog explaining this much clearer would be helpful.
Is anything going to be on You Tube?
This conclusion was based on faulty tree set up on my part while trying out "new stuff" (like "Long Range Sensor" and "Shield Penetration) in the skill tree. I was adjusting too many points OUT of other (more basic) skills to pad the stats for "testing" the new ones...ones I did not have in my Holodeck tree.
Please disregard my previous opinion.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
My friend mentioned this in the Tribble patch for yesterday: "Resolved an issue that was preventing Shield Hardness skill from correctly improving the damage your shields negate."
But I assured him I still see this happening ... I was testing last night after downloading the big patch from March 30th.
EDIT: OH, excuse me, I just realized YOU were complaining about Shield Penetration. Well, I wouldn't hold your breath for "Shield Hardness" to be the counter for Shield Penetration, when they are still trying to make it do what it is supposed to do. LOL!
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I agree completely, but that was before the developers implemented the changes, however, this is not the case now, as it is now properly balanced. I was on the tribble server just last night, and boy; was i pleased with these changes. Woo hoo! I want to say thank you Cryptic for these awesome changes!
Now I would like to address some issues that I have noticed on the tribble server.
On the holodeck, my ships' (kinetic and energy) resistances are around 41.2. I don't use kinetic/energy resistance consoles, instead i built my ship's resistance upon the skills tree, fleet shields/spire warp cores/impulse engines/deflectors, 5 reputation consoles, and the one of the reputation space traits i use to boost it up is the Romulan reputation trait; auxiliary power trait to defense. That combination allowed me to boost it up to where it is at.
On the tribble server, the stat's have completely changed. Now, my resistances are around 21.5. and I am still using the same ship build, same consoles, same personal space/reputation space trait. Something changed and not for the better. Anyways, I would like @borticuscryptic and the other developers to look into this and see if something is broken.
Can you be more precise about what "this" is that you think is broken? Help us find the needle in your haystack or skills/traits/equipment, please.
With nobody else reporting similar issues, I'm forced to assume that the issue is local to you having overlooked/forgotten something. Until proven otherwise, or additional reports surface with similar claims.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I will do the best i can, I am not a pro, but i will try.
Thank you for your prompt response!
Please note, the stats are no longer the same since the last time i was on the tribble server, so please disregard the original data that i had previously posted.
Here is a listing of the equipment and I have, the traits i have enabled.
Personal space traits:
warp theorist
operative
techie
intense focus
give your all
impact defense specialist
crippling fire
accurate
self-modulating fire
space reputation:
Advanced targeting systems
enhanced armor penetration
precision
auxiliary power configuration: offensive
auxiliary power configuration: defensive
Ship equipment:
Deflector: EPIC - elite fleet axion deflector array mk XIV [eng] [flow] [ins] [sciCdr] [SS/sI]
Impulse: EPIC - Elite Fleet Efficient Combat Impulse MK xIV [Drv2] [Full] [Pow] [Turn]x2
Warp core: EPIC - Elite Fleet Plasma Integrated Warp Core MK XIV [AMP] [EFF] [S->W] [SSR] [W->S] [WCap]
Shields: EPIC - Elite Fleet Adaptive Resilient Shield Array [Cap]x2 [Cp/rg] [Reg]
Ship consoles:
Engineering consoles: Ultra Rare - Ferrofluid Hydraulic assembly MK XIV, Assimilated Module MK XIV, Zero-point energy conduit MK XIV
Science consoles: Ultra Rare - Bio-Neural Gel Pack MK XIV, Proton Particle Stabilizer MK XIV
Tactical consoles: Fleet spire tactical consoles
Ship Stats- holodeck server:
[img][/img]
Skills:
[img][/img]
Ship stats- tribble server:
[img][/img]
Skills:
[img][/img]
Edit, sorry for the missing information, i have corrected that for you.
I hope that I have provided enough information for you.
Open both servers in separate windows and go down the list of EVERY single piece of equipment and traits to make sure the builds are exact. Also check your skill tree on Tribble to make sure you have armor skills maxed out.