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kemocite nerf and what it means for a spike build built around kemo and neutronic torp

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  • drkfrontiersdrkfrontiers Member Posts: 2,477 Arc User
    edited November 2015

    It's immoral and illegal to sell an ability that works well to drive up sales, and then once you've made the money change it so it doesn't work well anymore.

    I can survive without KLW, but I'm not going to continue to pay money into a company that engages in illegal and immoral business practices to drive up demand for a gambling mechanic. Neither should anyone else. This isn't healthy for the game or the community.

    We should be able to keep the ability we paid for, and they should be balanced before they are released - not months afterwards when they aren't making as much money off of it anymore.

    If you bought a new 2014 Dodge Viper (about $100,000) and enjoyed driving it for months, but when you went to take it in for servicing the dealer said "Wait, this car was too nice for you, so we are replacing it with a 2003 Dodge Avenger instead. I hope you understand." what would you do? You would throw a fit right? You would want your $100,000 car back? This is the same principle.

    They sold us something nice, and now it's being replaced with TRIBBLE. This is wrong, people.

    THIS is online gaming, and before you open your wallet, and esp before the tantrum read the TOS

    Here, let me help you. "If you do not agree with any of the Terms, please do not access or otherwise use the Service."
  • richardstorm89richardstorm89 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Another solution can be removing KLW AoE at all.
    Another solution can be making kemo procs only a single time per salvo of torpedoes per target (then it would work for both spread and high yield).
    But IMHO restrict kemo proc only on selected target is a big error, and becomes a true nerf, rather than a fix. They can increase damage magnitude, but hell, is a true nerf.

    The server do not manage graphics, only calcs and events; the graphic is only your PC job.
    If the game, or a mechanic, is meant to have tons of animations, your pc have to run them.
    Nerfing a skill due to a visual issue is no-sense; at this point, Cryptic should rather optimize rendering. The lag some people get is of unsure source: CPU or GPU ?
  • drkfrontiersdrkfrontiers Member Posts: 2,477 Arc User
    Another solution can be removing KLW AoE at all.
    Another solution can be making kemo procs only a single time per salvo of torpedoes per target (then it would work for both spread and high yield).
    But IMHO restrict kemo proc only on selected target is a big error, and becomes a true nerf, rather than a fix. They can increase damage magnitude, but hell, is a true nerf.

    The server do not manage graphics, only calcs and events; the graphic is only your PC job.
    If the game, or a mechanic, is meant to have tons of animations, your pc have to run them.
    Nerfing a skill due to a visual issue is no-sense; at this point, Cryptic should rather optimize rendering. The lag some people get is of unsure source: CPU or GPU ?

    Optimizing rendering has nothing to do with it. Replication of the packet between the server and the client, and the shear volume thereof is causing the issue. Have you ever tried downloading multiple files at once, and examine how much the transfer rate is reduced which each consecutive download started?
  • richardstorm89richardstorm89 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    "The lag some people get is of unsure source: CPU or GPU ?"
    I meant "visual lag/low fps/crashes", which involves only player PC, not the client-server load.
    We are already sure that KLW heavily affects netcode, then CPU. I think much less on GPU.

    What i say is: how cryptic is going to debug and fix/nerf KLW ? Has it tried to remove visual effects, and/or res debuff and AoE in the debug process ? Or the fix they intend to do is just a random decision with low effort? I mean: fixing something without knowing the real issue (CPU/GPU/net).
    As i said, they have to remove double proc and proc without trigger, but reducing kemo proc to the selected target is not the way to go IMHO.





  • nlearthlychief86nlearthlychief86 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    im so happy i moved away from the kemo/ts3 cheese and beat my Kemo/cheese PR with BA's only lol i dont have to worry!
    already figured this woud happen so yeah... the boards will look differend when its fixed and me is still up there probably move a few spots up too :)

    people that use this kemo/cheese and say im going to leave if they nerf it [fix it] as i see it .. good bye have fun playin another game and cheese ur way there .
  • storulesstorules Member Posts: 3,284 Arc User
    Have you guys noticed a price decrease in the exchange for kemo? WHY or WHY NOT? Just curious.​​
    tumblr_ncbngkt24X1ry46hlo1_400.gif
  • richardstorm89richardstorm89 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    It's happening. Not so significant but it's happening. Because they know it's becoming "a TRIBBLE".
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    storules wrote: »
    Have you guys noticed a price decrease in the exchange for kemo? WHY or WHY NOT? Just curious.​​

    I was curious and looked. I'd say not yet. Why, because the date hasn't been announced yet. When we have a firm date and the word gets out there will be a massive selloff. For now there is still the hope of more profit for as long as possible.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • storulesstorules Member Posts: 3,284 Arc User
    So it's safe to say Kemo is doomed dino1-10.gif

    So glad did not spend a dime on it. monkey-25.gif​​
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  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    storules wrote: »
    Have you guys noticed a price decrease in the exchange for kemo? WHY or WHY NOT? Just curious.​​

    I was curious and looked. I'd say not yet. Why, because the date hasn't been announced yet. When we have a firm date and the word gets out there will be a massive selloff. For now there is still the hope of more profit for as long as possible.

    No matter what happens to KLW, it still adds more net DPS than going without it.

    The persistent KLW multiple proc effects are now gone, but the damage growth root cause still remains. This is what the latest torpedo nerf aims to resolve.

    The primary issue being remedied by Cryptic is the multiplying AoE torpedo effects hitting multiple targets. The only way there were going to stop TS3 + KLW + Phased Quantum Burst's geometric damage growth was to remove the torpedo count multiplier completely from the equation.

    However, Cryptic is attacking the wrong issue. The primary cause of the extreme Torp Spread damage growth is not KLW nor Quantum Phase 2km detonations -- the problem is Torpedo Spread 3 itself. There is NO WAY a ship should be able to shoot out 4+ torpedoes per target -- torp launchers cannot handle that many torpedoes at once. We are seeing MIRV-torpedoes in TS3's present implementation. The original TS3 shot out 3+ toredoes that did not multiply with each ship present -- it was an AoE attack with a single ship at its center. A better solution would have been to launch a fixed number of torpedoes around the target ship, apply a high damage multiplier, and deal damage to all shield facings at once.

    By limiting torpedo buffs to only the original TS3 target, Cryptic is trying to remove the TS3 torpedo damage multiplier without significantly changing code. I believe that Cryptic is trying to code the easiest solution possible instead of the proper one -- this is downright lazy coding.

    This makes me wonder when BFAW's perfect accuracy will ever get fixed.






  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    Yeah, if they ever implement the change we'll also have to see how it still produces to find the price point. It's difficult because things tend to be close to 100 million or worthless as it's an economy driven by and for the super-rich. My guess is in the leech range of 80-100 million.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited November 2015
    tempus64 wrote: »
    x0rphen wrote: »
    Never mind the lag it caused for people saving combat logs and all the extra load it put on the servers.

    Running a Combatlog does not affect anything Server-side, the Combat data will be shown in your chat on the Combat tab no matter if the Combatlog command is on or off, the only thing it does is save these numbers client side into a txt file.

    I wonder where people always come up with these nonsense rumors.

    Bort has recently said in an interview that combat logging has performance issues and that they simply can't have it keep up with everything with all the poweres etc out there being used. Not to mention that some people have pointed out that logging can have a performance issue on your system due to the file writing and they've recommended you have it write to a different HDD than your main system one.

    Been saying this since Nov 2014.

    EDIT: https://youtu.be/YlKkVaesyec

    What started out as an audio configuration test became an impromptu how-to on redirecting the output of the combatlog.log file to RAM (or another physical drive).
    Post edited by darkknightucf on
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    shar487a wrote: »
    storules wrote: »
    Have you guys noticed a price decrease in the exchange for kemo? WHY or WHY NOT? Just curious.​​

    I was curious and looked. I'd say not yet. Why, because the date hasn't been announced yet. When we have a firm date and the word gets out there will be a massive selloff. For now there is still the hope of more profit for as long as possible.

    No matter what happens to KLW, it still adds more net DPS than going without it.

    The persistent KLW multiple proc effects are now gone, but the damage growth root cause still remains. This is what the latest torpedo nerf aims to resolve.

    The primary issue being remedied by Cryptic is the multiplying AoE torpedo effects hitting multiple targets. The only way there were going to stop TS3 + KLW + Phased Quantum Burst's geometric damage growth was to remove the torpedo count multiplier completely from the equation.

    However, Cryptic is attacking the wrong issue. The primary cause of the extreme Torp Spread damage growth is not KLW nor Quantum Phase 2km detonations -- the problem is Torpedo Spread 3 itself. There is NO WAY a ship should be able to shoot out 4+ torpedoes per target -- torp launchers cannot handle that many torpedoes at once. We are seeing MIRV-torpedoes in TS3's present implementation. The original TS3 shot out 3+ toredoes that did not multiply with each ship present -- it was an AoE attack with a single ship at its center. A better solution would have been to launch a fixed number of torpedoes around the target ship, apply a high damage multiplier, and deal damage to all shield facings at once.

    By limiting torpedo buffs to only the original TS3 target, Cryptic is trying to remove the TS3 torpedo damage multiplier without significantly changing code. I believe that Cryptic is trying to code the easiest solution possible instead of the proper one -- this is downright lazy coding.

    This makes me wonder when BFAW's perfect accuracy will ever get fixed.



    Interesting points, and I'll have to come back to you about this when I have more time. Would like to discuss this and another item in more detail.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • storulesstorules Member Posts: 3,284 Arc User
    I think this DEV is blowing smoke. I see NO FIX on the patch notes for Kemo yet. Are they stealth nerfing it or waiting for winter event to patch it up. Perhaps its more than they can actually chew on this issue and might be harder to nerf.

    Any work from Crypticrock or Borticus?


    Just a quick heads-up here, we're making some changes to the functionality of Quantum Phase Torpedo and how it interacts with Torpedo: Spread.

    As many of you are aware, a Quantum Phase Torpedo Spread currently triggers a shield drain AoE for each torpedo which hits a target. We've changed how the Quantum Phase Torpedo Spread works to only trigger off your main target for when you fired the spread. Once the change goes to Holodeck, you'll see Quantum Phase Torpedo Spread trigger one AoE, centered around the main target. This AoE will have a 4km radius and significantly improved damage compared to the standard shield drain AoE.

    We're making a similar change to Kemocite-Laced Weaponry, where Torpedo: Spread will only trigger one Kemocite Explosion for each torpedo which hits the main target. The spread-based Kemocite Explosions will also deal increased damage compared to the Kemocite Explosion from a standard torpedo.

    These changes are partly for balance purposes (in a target-rich environment these abilities were rather out-of-hand), and partly for performance purposes.

    The functionality of these abilities with other Torpedo abilities is unchanged.
    ​​
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  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    storules wrote: »
    I think this DEV is blowing smoke. I see NO FIX on the patch notes for Kemo yet. Are they stealth nerfing it or waiting for winter event to patch it up. Perhaps its more than they can actually chew on this issue and might be harder to nerf.

    Any work from Crypticrock or Borticus?


    Just a quick heads-up here, we're making some changes to the functionality of Quantum Phase Torpedo and how it interacts with Torpedo: Spread.

    As many of you are aware, a Quantum Phase Torpedo Spread currently triggers a shield drain AoE for each torpedo which hits a target. We've changed how the Quantum Phase Torpedo Spread works to only trigger off your main target for when you fired the spread. Once the change goes to Holodeck, you'll see Quantum Phase Torpedo Spread trigger one AoE, centered around the main target. This AoE will have a 4km radius and significantly improved damage compared to the standard shield drain AoE.

    We're making a similar change to Kemocite-Laced Weaponry, where Torpedo: Spread will only trigger one Kemocite Explosion for each torpedo which hits the main target. The spread-based Kemocite Explosions will also deal increased damage compared to the Kemocite Explosion from a standard torpedo.

    These changes are partly for balance purposes (in a target-rich environment these abilities were rather out-of-hand), and partly for performance purposes.

    The functionality of these abilities with other Torpedo abilities is unchanged.
    ​​

    He stated (I think on Reddit) that the update to KLW was done on an internal build and has been passed to their QA team. Once the QA team has done their tests, they'll move the changes to Tribble. The reason why the changes aren't out on Tribble yet is that they needed to use some internal dev tools to properly test the changes, and placing the changes on a player-facing environment while they were using those tools might cause problems for the players on Tribble.

    We need to be patient. I'd rather they do the changes properly rather than rush it out to the public.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    If something looks broken, or too good to be true, it probably is, and at some point, Cryptic will likely fix it. Especially if it also affects game performance radically, as Kemocite seems to do.

    Here's another one for you: if something looks broken, or too good to be true, but is allowed to stay unchanged for a very long time, then the customer is reasonable in their expectation that things are, in fact, working as intended, and that the money spent on these (very) expensive abilities is justified.

    It's simply the old bait-and-switch again: swindle ppl out of their money with something very enticing, and then, a year later or so, nerf it again, gratefully using all too willing forum ppl to let others know it was all their own fault for trusting Cryptic in the first place.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,120 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Here's another one for you: if something looks broken, or too good to be true, but is allowed to stay unchanged for a very long time, then the customer is reasonable in their expectation that things are, in fact, working as intended, and that the money spent on these (very) expensive abilities is justified.

    In a way yes. But first it needs to be found to be broken. While it may seem trivial, it isn't always that straightforward. Players won't complain about something doing too good for their liking, so it will take longer to find such stuff. Also about "working as intended": intentions may change due to rebalancing.

    But in this case it was clearly stated that it was not working as intended by the devs anyway. So even if they don't fix something like that immediately, you can only gamble on "they can't that easily" or "it's low priority".
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    If something looks broken, or too good to be true, it probably is, and at some point, Cryptic will likely fix it. Especially if it also affects game performance radically, as Kemocite seems to do.

    Here's another one for you: if something looks broken, or too good to be true, but is allowed to stay unchanged for a very long time, then the customer is reasonable in their expectation that things are, in fact, working as intended, and that the money spent on these (very) expensive abilities is justified.
    No. It is however quite reasonable to complain that this issue has been left unresolved for so long.


    Also, people overrate the value of "intention" in game design. Maybe they intended it to work like that, maybe they didn't. They can still decide that they don't like their original intent anymore or have seen outcomes they did not anticipate and decide to overhaul something.

    The Bridge Officer System was working as intended for many years. They still decided to overhaul it, and the game is better for it.
    There was a time when it was very well intended by Cryptic that the skill and the trait system forced you to distribute your skill points and trait slots between ground and space and find a mix. But they decided that this wasn't a good idea either and changed it.

    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    shar487a wrote: »
    storules wrote: »
    Have you guys noticed a price decrease in the exchange for kemo? WHY or WHY NOT? Just curious.​​

    (...)

    Hmm, so, the intention is for TS3 to get nerfed into oblivion altogether?! Hand to God, I think Bort hates this game, and the ppl in it. :P Seriously, though, torps didn't need another nerf. If *anything*, they needed a buff (they still do). In fact, were it up to me, I'd go into the complete opposite direction of Bort, and start with removing the limitation on torp abilities that only the first torp firing gets buffed by it. (Imagine the forum rage is BFAW only affected your first beam firing! LOL) Or make BFAW indeed only work on 1 beam (like BO). Nerfing torps, however, was silly, and yet another attempt to sabotage their own game.
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  • juanvenkatjuanvenkat Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    After kemo in STO, if you fly a slow ship or don't hit full impulse immediately, the STF will be over before you get there.

    Think they need to add those elite versions of all maps they promised a year ago and then maybe think about forcing certain people to play those - well that might be a little too fascist but at least add those maps.

    It's pretty obvious a lot of people have outgrown the current NPC stats,
  • harlequinpixieharlequinpixie Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    There have been many changes to abilities in the game over the years. Beam fire at will was changed several times, beam overload was also changed a few times. Course, they are not lockbox abilities, but. They were changed none of the less. I currently fly several types of ships, some are beam and torpedo mixed, one is cannon and torpedo mixed. I even fly a torpedo science ship, with no kemocite. I did look at the ability kemocite when I recently returned from a long vacation from the game, then saw the price, and forgot about it quickly.

    In short, it was broken and badly broken. So fixing it is the obvious thing to do. Either way, it won't really affect me, as I don't have a small planet to sell off for a bridge officer ability, and do rather fine with the standard abilities we can get. Eh, I'll go as far to say attack pattern delta is not rubbish, as it is very useful for a tank type ship that I play. Seeing as I take around 60% incoming damage in any STF. Then again, I assume the npc's just hate me, due to the gates on the other side of the vortex still targeting me.

    I used to use beam overload a good deal, now that is a useless ability. I am just glad I bought the leeches for all my alts before those got silly high in prices. I also hate the exchange, due to how overpriced it has become. I also very much dislike lock boxes and so wish there was a option to not have them cluttering my inventory. I'd rather play the lottery in real life, than gamble for some random gimmick in a game.
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  • harlequinpixieharlequinpixie Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    The old old STF's used to be a challenge, the elite ones. Where you did the ground and space parts in one run. And classes made a difference in most of those STF's, now a days it's all tactical officers in cruisers.
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  • sarcasmdetectorsarcasmdetector Member Posts: 1,176 Media Corps
    Kemo isn't being nerfed. Torp Spread is being fixed, specifically it's interaction with Kemo and the QPT.

    Kemo is actually currently bugged and is not benefiting from cat 2 damage bonuses. That will hopefully be fixed soonish.

  • natejam101natejam101 Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    lol. It is getting nerfed? This is good news! Watch the price on Kemocite weaponry finally plummet.
  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    Well this has been a fun read. Good thing I made popcorn!

    This kinda thing takes me back to the glory days of PvP when idiots would spend money in the latest cheese to faceroll people in kerrat and a month or 2 later it'd get nerfed and they'd be struggling to keep their head above water because that's the price you pay for using broken gear! It gets fixed/nerfed and you wasted your money for a month of "haha! Everyone else sucks compared to me!!"
    Thing is, they're the ones that suck because they let their build do the work for them, instead of learning how to fight properly.

    Cheese and broken gear doesn't help you be a better pilot or player, it just makes you look more and more like a child until it gets nerfed... And then you'll look like a right idiot.
  • storulesstorules Member Posts: 3,284 Arc User
    Well this has been a fun read. Good thing I made popcorn!

    This kinda thing takes me back to the glory days of PvP when idiots would spend money in the latest cheese to faceroll people in kerrat and a month or 2 later it'd get nerfed and they'd be struggling to keep their head above water because that's the price you pay for using broken gear! It gets fixed/nerfed and you wasted your money for a month of "haha! Everyone else sucks compared to me!!"
    Thing is, they're the ones that suck because they let their build do the work for them, instead of learning how to fight properly.

    Cheese and broken gear doesn't help you be a better pilot or player, it just makes you look more and more like a child until it gets nerfed... And then you'll look like a right idiot.

    Ahh the good days of Kerrat. We can say the same for those who exploited Argala before the major SPEC nerfdoom. Lots of players did get a bunch of specs before they nerfed it to oblivion. Some got flamed from being called exploiters. However, either you use your brain to exploit a loophole or use "money" to buff your abilities...the end is the same and you'd be treated like 3rd world ugly from Cryptic. They tried to balance for the benefit of ALL. However, some of the game still carries the biggest bugs and that is not fixed. PvP is beyond broken and Defera invasion anyone?dino5-1.gif​​
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  • dolour79dolour79 Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    can i have your stuff before you quit?
  • unsacredgraveunsacredgrave Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    the main question is, we should ask here: how can we convince the devs to totally remove pvp from this game? those 5 or 10 remaining pvp-players are the constant source of nerfs. they got ionic tubulence nerfed, surgical strikes, neutronic damage, and now kemocite. its time to get rid of pvp, so there is no need for "balancing" anymore!
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