First of all, not regarding the "legality" or "morality" of the action, I am certain that a lot more players will be happy with a fix/nerf than won't be, so it most probably will not adversely affect income.
First of all, it is an ability of limited availability, players need deep pockets or a lot of luck to get it, not everybody can. You may call it envy - and in some cases it certainly is - but it makes a fix to a very high-powered ability more desirable than one to say Science Team.
More importantly, having an ability "to rule them all" even if available to everybody has the adverse effects of (a) heavily reducing the worth of the content, no opposition of value, beating queues in 7 seconds without even trying (yes, I am exaggerating), and (b) making other builds less desirable thus reducing variability of the content. Many gamers do not like that as much.
Most importantly is the lag issue. Regardless of whether it is client side and thus "the player's fault" - there is a reason why software usually isn't made to only run on the highest specs. Because not everybody can afford them, or doesn't want to just for a game, and thus it diminishes the player base. So it may not be the KLW users' problem if other players have laggy computers, but it certainly is STO's problem, and thus Cryptic would want to resolve it.
So the "voting with wallet" argument will certainly not convince Cryptic otherwise (although you are perfectly fine to do so if you don't like it without having to justify yourself).
About legality and morality of this I need less text. Every MMORPG constantly changes stats of items and abilities, reshuffles currencies, stuff like that. Thus every purchase of an item, be it with in game money or real world money, does not guarantee you that it will work like described when you get it. Much less months after the fact. So this is common knowledge, or should be, and in this special case it was said that it would be changed for a long time. If you read from that "only one thing would be changed" that may be disappointing but that's not what was said. So no moral problems.
Legally: it is said in the TOS. In cases of blatant abuses (buy now and get a Fleet Scimitar regardless of faction next month, when the "Fleet Scimitar" will have only the stats of a Captain's Yacht) you would have a case. Here you don't. If you think otherwise, ask a lawyer, maybe he knows how to make a case. I doubt you will find one outside of shady back streets (or the internet, which is basically the same)
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Kemo being fixed? Did I miss something? Its not on the release notes nor on tribble unless I missed something. Is this wishful thinking or for real. Whats your REAL source please?
Kemo being fixed? Did I miss something? Its not on the release notes nor on tribble unless I missed something. Is this wishful thinking or for real. Whats your REAL source please?
Kemo being fixed? Did I miss something? Its not on the release notes nor on tribble unless I missed something. Is this wishful thinking or for real. Whats your REAL source please?
Just a quick heads-up here, we're making some changes to the functionality of Quantum Phase Torpedo and how it interacts with Torpedo: Spread.
As many of you are aware, a Quantum Phase Torpedo Spread currently triggers a shield drain AoE for each torpedo which hits a target. We've changed how the Quantum Phase Torpedo Spread works to only trigger off your main target for when you fired the spread. Once the change goes to Holodeck, you'll see Quantum Phase Torpedo Spread trigger one AoE, centered around the main target. This AoE will have a 4km radius and significantly improved damage compared to the standard shield drain AoE.
We're making a similar change to Kemocite-Laced Weaponry, where Torpedo: Spread will only trigger one Kemocite Explosion for each torpedo which hits the main target. The spread-based Kemocite Explosions will also deal increased damage compared to the Kemocite Explosion from a standard torpedo.
These changes are partly for balance purposes (in a target-rich environment these abilities were rather out-of-hand), and partly for performance purposes.
The functionality of these abilities with other Torpedo abilities is unchanged.
There's no mention of when exactly this is going to happen, though.
Well I'm happy I didn't spend a single EC or key to try to get kemo and now it's getting the nerfbat. Let's see how you tacs like it when the nerfbat hits you instead of science!
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I'm getting tired of putting resources into stuff that gets turned into junk after the fact.
Then don't be an early adopter, and pay attention to the "everything subject to change" fine print. It should go without saying that something so overpowered that it becomes the one ability to rule them all, it is broken and will eventually be fixed. It's your own fault if your build depends on an obviously broken ability. No sympathy for you whatsoever.
Well actually no. Cryptic should test their stuff before putting it out, and then people wouldn't have to waste time, EC and dil on borked products. This is the third time something like this has happened for me. First embassy consoles (the original version), then Kemocite-laced and Quantum torps. No compensation whatsoever for stuff that is now nothing like the originals.
To break it down very simply:
1 torp spread 3 could proc over 200 procs of kemocyte on grav welled targets.
1 torp spread 2 with the Quantum Phase Torp did over 12million damage to a group a gravwelled spheres.
Those are problems. They are getting fixed. Deal with it.
Again it's not a bug fix it's a nerf. I would have been fine with a fix that made it so each torp procs only once on each target when used with torp spread. Instead they are making it so each torp procs once on only your main (selected) target. This means KLW won't work with torp spread anymore.
I suppose it's only a matter of time before they get around to doing the same thing with KLW and BFAW now. With these changes KLW will become garbage. You might as well slot attack pattern delta instead, because that TRIBBLE ability would still be more useful than KLW post-nerf.
I hope they change their minds and just fix the multi-proc bug. When used with torp spread it should proc once per torpedo on each target that they hit, not just your main target.
Fixing KLW multi-proc bug = good
Nerfing KLW with torp spread or BFAW = bad
Cryptic should test their stuff before putting it out,
Either you are a complete newbie, or you know damned well their development testing is minimal, and that broken things are very often only detected and fixed after they go live. Knowing that in advance means no sympathy for you.
What you think they "should" do is irrelevant. They are doing what you should expect from them by now.
No compensation whatsoever for stuff that is now nothing like the originals.
You bought something clearly released as "subject to change," and then, *gasp*, it changed. You are owed nothing.
I'm getting tired of putting resources into stuff that gets turned into junk after the fact.
Then don't be an early adopter, and pay attention to the "everything subject to change" fine print. It should go without saying that something so overpowered that it becomes the one ability to rule them all, it is broken and will eventually be fixed. It's your own fault if your build depends on an obviously broken ability. No sympathy for you whatsoever.
Early adopter?? I got the embassy consoles when they first came out with the embassy holding ages ago. They have undergone 2 major nerfs making those consoles useless to me. As for Kemocite they have also been out for a while now, and have will have undergone two major nerfs. The Quantum phase torp, this is a story reward for goodness sake. Blaming people for putting resources into these items is bogus. The real fault lies with Cryptic for not carrying out rudimentary tests on these items. We are not talking about unintended consequences with other skills, we are talking about the primary function of the items that can be seen just by using them once on a target or group of targets.
Again it's not a bug fix it's a nerf. I would have been fine with a fix that made it so each torp procs only once on each target when used with torp spread. Instead they are making it so each torp procs once on only your main (selected) target. This means KLW won't work with torp spread anymore.
But it does work with Torpedo Spread - the proc works against the primary target, and the damage from the proc is increased. It just doesn't work the exact same way it did before.
I suppose it's only a matter of time before they get around to doing the same thing with KLW and BFAW now. With these changes KLW will become garbage. You might as well slot attack pattern delta instead, because that TRIBBLE ability would still be more useful than KLW post-nerf.
No, it won't be garbage. Again, it still works with Torpedo Spread. It also will still work with Attack Pattern Omega, Beam Fire At Will, Cannon Rapid Fire and a whole host of other powers. It beats Attack Pattern Delta easily, since you can't combine Attack Pattern Delta and Attack Pattern Beta or Omega at the same time. Kemocite is a buff that stack son top of everything. That makes it inherently more valuable - even if the magnitude of the effect were lower. Particular with today's potential for cooldown reductions, the major limiter for ships is no longer how often they can activate an ability, but how many you can actually run at the same time.
It's actually a bit similar to Direct Energy Modulation in that regard - DEM's extra damage is not very impressive - but it actually stacks with all kinds of buffs, since it doesn't share a cooldown with any of them. Except Kemocite's extra damage actually is a lot more notable than DEM.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
New OP gear doesn't get balanced for many months. NPCs don't complain. How many times have you had Kemo shot at you? Never I bet.
Someone mentioned that APD was a garbage ability. Well how many things should increase damage by 5000%?????
LTP!
Don't count victory yet. I have a bad feeling about this change. The way its worded, it seems that if someone fires a TS at you, you'll blow up worse than before. I can't tell if this is a fix or a change worse than the original. Kemo needs a serious balance pass because it's the damage combined with the resistance rating reduction that makes it killer against other players.
Also, it helps not to build around an extremely broken and OP ability. Those almost always get changed, sooner or later.
#PlasmaExplosions
Weren't there more bugs with Kemocite than just Spread procs? I swear you and yours posted something after doing a bunch of testing that made me lol...
Yes. Snipey and I ran tests on various firing modes when KLW was first released (including his funny intro to the vid).
We noticed the double-proc on TS, but initially, it was so minute because KLW wasn't being buffed by ANYTHING, including +radDMG boosts. It was much more noticeable later on when +radDMG boosts affected it. Based on @sarcasmdetector KLW is CURRENTLY not being boosted by APA and the like (and we suspect that it never was).
Initially, destructible torps did not benefit from KLW debuff. That was reported as fixed about a month ago.
We did a multitude of tests w/ FaW, CSV, and TS w/ the DPS After Dark crew, and showed that ALL eligible KLW slotted on your ship would proc. If one proc'd, all proc'd. This was independently verified by Alfie and SoB.
We're still waiting for our QA check
Oden , Thank you for helping to bring this whole issue to light through, "The Show" along with your other co hosts. Thank you for helping the community become a better place. Don't let the nay sayers and muppets drag you folks down. It's refreashing to see problems brought to light and explained in ways that make sense. Props and cheers.
Now let's all take a knee and say a quick prayer for Kinetic damage is good and wholesome. Canons are a solid weapon and do not completly stink.
Again it's not a bug fix it's a nerf. I would have been fine with a fix that made it so each torp procs only once on each target when used with torp spread. Instead they are making it so each torp procs once on only your main (selected) target. This means KLW won't work with torp spread anymore.
I suppose it's only a matter of time before they get around to doing the same thing with KLW and BFAW now. With these changes KLW will become garbage. You might as well slot attack pattern delta instead, because that TRIBBLE ability would still be more useful than KLW post-nerf.
I hope they change their minds and just fix the multi-proc bug. When used with torp spread it should proc once per torpedo on each target that they hit, not just your main target.
Fixing KLW multi-proc bug = good
Nerfing KLW with torp spread or BFAW = bad
By what standard do you say it's not a bug? please enlighten us since you seem to know more about the game than even the devs. when something is too overpowered or is bugged it gets fixed, that's how it works. it's not intended for one ability to be able to do the kinds of damage and destruction we were seeing with kemocite.
You've already demonstrated that you know nothing of the programming it takes to make a game or mod or anything even remotely similar. if something is bugged, too overpowered, or generally breaks the game in any way then it gets changed. ALL games and mmos do this and it's foolish to believe otherwise. They're not going to allow an ability to stay that pretty much on its own can wipe out entire groups of enemies in a mission.
Every copy of kemocite is purchased from Cryptic. It doesn't matter if you bought your copy off the exchange, or if you bought your keys off the exchange.
Every key is purchased by a player, which means they are paid items. Every copy of Kemocite is from a lockbox opened by a key. Every copy of kemocite in the game is a paid item, purchased from Cryptic.
Changing it now is bait and switch.
KLW did drive up sales - look at the prices of the Xindi-Terrestrial lockboxes on the exchange. They are more expensive than the other lockboxes for a reason. Before the multi-lockbox event Xinti-T lockboxes were selling for over 100k each! They are climbing up in price again right now. But I expect the demand will drop after a nerf like this.
I already posted about the lag. I strongly suspect it's client side.
What drove up sales was it getting out that KLW was borked beyond all measure. In typical fashion people flocked to get this new OP ability to deal their ub3r l33t dps. people naturally flock to the OP stuff in games and this comes as no surprise. generally there's a good chunk of people in a game's populace that like to deal the top dps and so on that they possibly can. there's nothing wrong with wanting to min/max your toons. The problem in this instance is the ability that they were using was not doing what it was intended to do.
When several different people with vastly different builds all run smoothly until the moment kemocite is fired off, and can verify that the lag only happens when that particular ability is used, then you have a problem. Again you arrogantly assume that simply because you personally don't have the lag issue that everyone who does should have to just deal with it because YOU deserve to be able to deal ub3r l33t damage. When you using kemocite effects the ability of someone else to play the game because it lags their machine, then they have every right to call attention to it.
Really dude you have no idea of what a bait and switch actually is and any judge would laugh you out of the courtroom should you ever be dense enough to try something legally. You agreed to the ToS in order to play the game. This means you agreed to play knowing full well "these stats are subject to change." Guess what, that includes kemocite and how it functions. Guess what that means, you don't have a legal leg to stand on. Suppose for example you wish to purchase a with all these different features called Phone A. Upon arrival to your home you discover that what you really have is Phone B which is just a basic phone with no features, THAT is an example of a bait and switch.
You agreed to the ToS service knowing full well things could change, which includes kemocite. By agreeing to the ToS and playing the game you're acknowledging that you know kemocite can change. You were NOT promised that kemocite would always be the same. What Cryptic is doing is called fixing a bug. by your way of thinking of what bait and switch actually is, it's illegal for them not fix it and change it. You were promised an ability that does a, b, and c, but is instead doing a, b, c, d, e, f, and g. So those extra things must be removed by law.
Bottom line, the ability you used is being changed and fixed/nerfed to fall in line with what it was supposed to do to start with, and now you're throwing a hissy fit acting like someone insulted your favorite superhero on the playground. Honestly dude you really need to learn a little something about computers and the law for that matter before you post again.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Never mind the lag it caused for people saving combat logs and all the extra load it put on the servers.
Running a Combatlog does not affect anything Server-side, the Combat data will be shown in your chat on the Combat tab no matter if the Combatlog command is on or off, the only thing it does is save these numbers client side into a txt file.
I wonder where people always come up with these nonsense rumors.
Bort has recently said in an interview that combat logging has performance issues and that they simply can't have it keep up with everything with all the poweres etc out there being used. Not to mention that some people have pointed out that logging can have a performance issue on your system due to the file writing and they've recommended you have it write to a different HDD than your main system one.
All this talk of "it's illegal" and "bait and switch" and what-have-you....
Folks. You are not paying for "kemocite-laced weaponry" or for any other specific game mechanic. What you're paying for is a Star Trek themed MMO. You are paying to move a bunch of pixels around on your screen in a vaguely Star Trek related manner. So long as Cryptic keep delivering that, everything they do is legal.
Cryptic can decide tomorrow that Season 12 is Back to Basics With TOS Season 1, can roll it out next maintenance, can replace your current starship with the shuttlecraft Galileo and your kemocite-laced weaponry with Lt. Riley singing "I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen", and you'd still be getting a Star Trek themed MMO, which is what you're paying for. The only legal right you've got, or I've got, is the right to close your wallet, pick up your marbles, and go away.
So, enough with the "it's illegal" stuff, please? It just sounds silly.
Comments
First of all, it is an ability of limited availability, players need deep pockets or a lot of luck to get it, not everybody can. You may call it envy - and in some cases it certainly is - but it makes a fix to a very high-powered ability more desirable than one to say Science Team.
More importantly, having an ability "to rule them all" even if available to everybody has the adverse effects of (a) heavily reducing the worth of the content, no opposition of value, beating queues in 7 seconds without even trying (yes, I am exaggerating), and (b) making other builds less desirable thus reducing variability of the content. Many gamers do not like that as much.
Most importantly is the lag issue. Regardless of whether it is client side and thus "the player's fault" - there is a reason why software usually isn't made to only run on the highest specs. Because not everybody can afford them, or doesn't want to just for a game, and thus it diminishes the player base. So it may not be the KLW users' problem if other players have laggy computers, but it certainly is STO's problem, and thus Cryptic would want to resolve it.
So the "voting with wallet" argument will certainly not convince Cryptic otherwise (although you are perfectly fine to do so if you don't like it without having to justify yourself).
About legality and morality of this I need less text. Every MMORPG constantly changes stats of items and abilities, reshuffles currencies, stuff like that. Thus every purchase of an item, be it with in game money or real world money, does not guarantee you that it will work like described when you get it. Much less months after the fact. So this is common knowledge, or should be, and in this special case it was said that it would be changed for a long time. If you read from that "only one thing would be changed" that may be disappointing but that's not what was said. So no moral problems.
Legally: it is said in the TOS. In cases of blatant abuses (buy now and get a Fleet Scimitar regardless of faction next month, when the "Fleet Scimitar" will have only the stats of a Captain's Yacht) you would have a case. Here you don't. If you think otherwise, ask a lawyer, maybe he knows how to make a case. I doubt you will find one outside of shady back streets (or the internet, which is basically the same)
NVM...got it:
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/comment/12777698/#Comment_12777698
So good I did not spend the countless of Millions people had. Sorry for those who did.
There's no mention of when exactly this is going to happen, though.
whats a QQ...pls oh master...Enlighten me:
or:
every droplet explodes 6 times!
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
HA!!
1 torp spread 3 could proc over 200 procs of kemocyte on grav welled targets.
1 torp spread 2 with the Quantum Phase Torp did over 12million damage to a group a gravwelled spheres.
Those are problems. They are getting fixed. Deal with it.
Then don't be an early adopter, and pay attention to the "everything subject to change" fine print. It should go without saying that something so overpowered that it becomes the one ability to rule them all, it is broken and will eventually be fixed. It's your own fault if your build depends on an obviously broken ability. No sympathy for you whatsoever.
Again it's not a bug fix it's a nerf. I would have been fine with a fix that made it so each torp procs only once on each target when used with torp spread. Instead they are making it so each torp procs once on only your main (selected) target. This means KLW won't work with torp spread anymore.
I suppose it's only a matter of time before they get around to doing the same thing with KLW and BFAW now. With these changes KLW will become garbage. You might as well slot attack pattern delta instead, because that TRIBBLE ability would still be more useful than KLW post-nerf.
I hope they change their minds and just fix the multi-proc bug. When used with torp spread it should proc once per torpedo on each target that they hit, not just your main target.
Fixing KLW multi-proc bug = good
Nerfing KLW with torp spread or BFAW = bad
Either you are a complete newbie, or you know damned well their development testing is minimal, and that broken things are very often only detected and fixed after they go live. Knowing that in advance means no sympathy for you.
What you think they "should" do is irrelevant. They are doing what you should expect from them by now.
You bought something clearly released as "subject to change," and then, *gasp*, it changed. You are owed nothing.
Early adopter?? I got the embassy consoles when they first came out with the embassy holding ages ago. They have undergone 2 major nerfs making those consoles useless to me. As for Kemocite they have also been out for a while now, and have will have undergone two major nerfs. The Quantum phase torp, this is a story reward for goodness sake. Blaming people for putting resources into these items is bogus. The real fault lies with Cryptic for not carrying out rudimentary tests on these items. We are not talking about unintended consequences with other skills, we are talking about the primary function of the items that can be seen just by using them once on a target or group of targets.
But it does work with Torpedo Spread - the proc works against the primary target, and the damage from the proc is increased. It just doesn't work the exact same way it did before.
No, it won't be garbage. Again, it still works with Torpedo Spread. It also will still work with Attack Pattern Omega, Beam Fire At Will, Cannon Rapid Fire and a whole host of other powers. It beats Attack Pattern Delta easily, since you can't combine Attack Pattern Delta and Attack Pattern Beta or Omega at the same time. Kemocite is a buff that stack son top of everything. That makes it inherently more valuable - even if the magnitude of the effect were lower. Particular with today's potential for cooldown reductions, the major limiter for ships is no longer how often they can activate an ability, but how many you can actually run at the same time.
It's actually a bit similar to Direct Energy Modulation in that regard - DEM's extra damage is not very impressive - but it actually stacks with all kinds of buffs, since it doesn't share a cooldown with any of them. Except Kemocite's extra damage actually is a lot more notable than DEM.
Don't count victory yet. I have a bad feeling about this change. The way its worded, it seems that if someone fires a TS at you, you'll blow up worse than before. I can't tell if this is a fix or a change worse than the original. Kemo needs a serious balance pass because it's the damage combined with the resistance rating reduction that makes it killer against other players.
Oden , Thank you for helping to bring this whole issue to light through, "The Show" along with your other co hosts. Thank you for helping the community become a better place. Don't let the nay sayers and muppets drag you folks down. It's refreashing to see problems brought to light and explained in ways that make sense. Props and cheers.
Now let's all take a knee and say a quick prayer for Kinetic damage is good and wholesome. Canons are a solid weapon and do not completly stink.
By what standard do you say it's not a bug? please enlighten us since you seem to know more about the game than even the devs. when something is too overpowered or is bugged it gets fixed, that's how it works. it's not intended for one ability to be able to do the kinds of damage and destruction we were seeing with kemocite.
You've already demonstrated that you know nothing of the programming it takes to make a game or mod or anything even remotely similar. if something is bugged, too overpowered, or generally breaks the game in any way then it gets changed. ALL games and mmos do this and it's foolish to believe otherwise. They're not going to allow an ability to stay that pretty much on its own can wipe out entire groups of enemies in a mission.
What drove up sales was it getting out that KLW was borked beyond all measure. In typical fashion people flocked to get this new OP ability to deal their ub3r l33t dps. people naturally flock to the OP stuff in games and this comes as no surprise. generally there's a good chunk of people in a game's populace that like to deal the top dps and so on that they possibly can. there's nothing wrong with wanting to min/max your toons. The problem in this instance is the ability that they were using was not doing what it was intended to do.
When several different people with vastly different builds all run smoothly until the moment kemocite is fired off, and can verify that the lag only happens when that particular ability is used, then you have a problem. Again you arrogantly assume that simply because you personally don't have the lag issue that everyone who does should have to just deal with it because YOU deserve to be able to deal ub3r l33t damage. When you using kemocite effects the ability of someone else to play the game because it lags their machine, then they have every right to call attention to it.
Really dude you have no idea of what a bait and switch actually is and any judge would laugh you out of the courtroom should you ever be dense enough to try something legally. You agreed to the ToS in order to play the game. This means you agreed to play knowing full well "these stats are subject to change." Guess what, that includes kemocite and how it functions. Guess what that means, you don't have a legal leg to stand on. Suppose for example you wish to purchase a with all these different features called Phone A. Upon arrival to your home you discover that what you really have is Phone B which is just a basic phone with no features, THAT is an example of a bait and switch.
You agreed to the ToS service knowing full well things could change, which includes kemocite. By agreeing to the ToS and playing the game you're acknowledging that you know kemocite can change. You were NOT promised that kemocite would always be the same. What Cryptic is doing is called fixing a bug. by your way of thinking of what bait and switch actually is, it's illegal for them not fix it and change it. You were promised an ability that does a, b, and c, but is instead doing a, b, c, d, e, f, and g. So those extra things must be removed by law.
Bottom line, the ability you used is being changed and fixed/nerfed to fall in line with what it was supposed to do to start with, and now you're throwing a hissy fit acting like someone insulted your favorite superhero on the playground. Honestly dude you really need to learn a little something about computers and the law for that matter before you post again.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Now only 3 times!
Bort has recently said in an interview that combat logging has performance issues and that they simply can't have it keep up with everything with all the poweres etc out there being used. Not to mention that some people have pointed out that logging can have a performance issue on your system due to the file writing and they've recommended you have it write to a different HDD than your main system one.
Folks. You are not paying for "kemocite-laced weaponry" or for any other specific game mechanic. What you're paying for is a Star Trek themed MMO. You are paying to move a bunch of pixels around on your screen in a vaguely Star Trek related manner. So long as Cryptic keep delivering that, everything they do is legal.
Cryptic can decide tomorrow that Season 12 is Back to Basics With TOS Season 1, can roll it out next maintenance, can replace your current starship with the shuttlecraft Galileo and your kemocite-laced weaponry with Lt. Riley singing "I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen", and you'd still be getting a Star Trek themed MMO, which is what you're paying for. The only legal right you've got, or I've got, is the right to close your wallet, pick up your marbles, and go away.
So, enough with the "it's illegal" stuff, please? It just sounds silly.