I was talking to one of my fleet mates about this (we're a small fleet with many inactive members) and he has a few concerns about this system.
The larger fleet in this system would force the smaller fleets in the system to contribute to THEIR holding first and after it was completed, maybe think about contributing to the smaller fleets in return.
The smaller fleet's members will be forced to use the same builds that the larger fleet members use (basically, you play the game our way or you can go find another fleet).
Large fleets will be out mostly for the bonus skill points and will try and collect as many fleets as they can in order to achieve this, not paying any attention to smaller fleets other than being a source of bonus stuff for them.
I think these would be valid concerns to have, right?
They are somewhat valid yes. Keep in mind however that big fleets have nowhere to put their resources for fleet credits, they always have a vast surplus. Even building a new holding would be a breeze so they would have plenty of leftover to help each other out.
Yes, alphas might build their holdings first, but keep in mind that all the other fleets benefit from faster access to the new shinnies! Even contributing to the smaller fleets will be selfish because that's the only way for them to get fleet credits easily! So I think there may be a few concerns if your unlucky enough to be roped into a bad Armada (like Starfleet Dental) but in general I think the issues you mention resolve themselves.
I was talking to one of my fleet mates about this (we're a small fleet with many inactive members) and he has a few concerns about this system.
The larger fleet in this system would force the smaller fleets in the system to contribute to THEIR holding first and after it was completed, maybe think about contributing to the smaller fleets in return.
The smaller fleet's members will be forced to use the same builds that the larger fleet members use (basically, you play the game our way or you can go find another fleet).
Large fleets will be out mostly for the bonus skill points and will try and collect as many fleets as they can in order to achieve this, not paying any attention to smaller fleets other than being a source of bonus stuff for them.
I think these would be valid concerns to have, right?
I was talking to one of my fleet mates about this (we're a small fleet with many inactive members) and he has a few concerns about this system.
The larger fleet in this system would force the smaller fleets in the system to contribute to THEIR holding first and after it was completed, maybe think about contributing to the smaller fleets in return.
The smaller fleet's members will be forced to use the same builds that the larger fleet members use (basically, you play the game our way or you can go find another fleet).
Large fleets will be out mostly for the bonus skill points and will try and collect as many fleets as they can in order to achieve this, not paying any attention to smaller fleets other than being a source of bonus stuff for them.
I think these would be valid concerns to have, right?
They are legit concerns, however, no offense but if those are your concerns then you probably need to look for the right large fleet to join.
There are going to be those fleets that will not abuse the system or smaller fleets.
Fleet Admiral Thomas Winston James a.k.a. The Grayfox Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
vegeta brings up a good point. While this can be a benefit to smaller fleets, the possibility of some of the larger fleets basically "Taking over" the smaller fleets for their benefit or imposing "Rules" for maintaining membership in their Armada exists.
We still gotta consider Fleet Atomony, as there are hardcore fleets, RP fleets, and casual fleets out there. How would a hardcore fleet leading an Armada deal with an RP or casual fleet? I can see Casuals not imposing anything on other fleets in the Armada, but will that work both ways?
Hopefully those different types of fleets will group together. You will have your hardcore fleets joining hardcore Armadas, RP for RP, and casual for casual.
All in all if a fleet doesn't like the rules of the Armada, they have every right not to join.
"I don't always test, but when I do. It is in production"
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,070Community Moderator
That is true zredmon. I would classify Tal Shiar's Most Wanted as Casual. Every once in a while we might get together for a serious run at something, but generally we're pretty laid back and fun. I'm not the Fleet Leader, but I've been in long enough to know.
I was talking to one of my fleet mates about this (we're a small fleet with many inactive members) and he has a few concerns about this system.
The larger fleet in this system would force the smaller fleets in the system to contribute to THEIR holding first and after it was completed, maybe think about contributing to the smaller fleets in return.
The smaller fleet's members will be forced to use the same builds that the larger fleet members use (basically, you play the game our way or you can go find another fleet).
Large fleets will be out mostly for the bonus skill points and will try and collect as many fleets as they can in order to achieve this, not paying any attention to smaller fleets other than being a source of bonus stuff for them.
I think these would be valid concerns to have, right?
Indeed, these would be valid concerns. As a Fleet Leader I'm considering starting an alliance/armada myself, and I would like the subourdinate fleets to be able to take care of themselves (I don't like to micromanage).
I would, however, like to meet with the fleet leaders of any potential sub-fleet and try to standardize the fleet rules across the fleets involved... This I forsee as a potential issue, though, since I tend to be fairly easy-going in terms of fleet rules, probably not a big issue.
There should be a way for fleet leaders to leave an alliance/armada, in case the fleet leader is feeling that his/her fleet is being taken advantage of or mistreated in any way, which might ease the potential for abuse by alliance/armada leader fleets.
Generally, I see this as a boon for STO as many smaller fleets could benefit from the resources that larger fleets can offer, and larger fleets could utilize the extra roster space that smaller fleets can provide!
This is impressive and long overdue. Its still early days and I am still trying to work out the details that have been released so far, but everything looks like welcome changes to date.
I look forward to further news releases that provide a bit more detail on exactly what this entails.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,070Community Moderator
I personally would see Casual Alpha Fleets not really imposing any rules outside of some basics that are generally universal, to keep the others from feeling like this is a takeover. So basically member fleets would keep their atonomy and relative independance, but can still benefit from allied fleets providing resources.
I would never condone an Alpha Fleet imposing strict rules to the point of wearing a variant of the Alpha Fleet's uniform or enforcing certain builds, playstyles, or personalities. This is meant for us to help each other. Not to extend the influence of certain fleets.
I was talking to one of my fleet mates about this (we're a small fleet with many inactive members) and he has a few concerns about this system.
The larger fleet in this system would force the smaller fleets in the system to contribute to THEIR holding first and after it was completed, maybe think about contributing to the smaller fleets in return.
The smaller fleet's members will be forced to use the same builds that the larger fleet members use (basically, you play the game our way or you can go find another fleet).
Large fleets will be out mostly for the bonus skill points and will try and collect as many fleets as they can in order to achieve this, not paying any attention to smaller fleets other than being a source of bonus stuff for them.
I think these would be valid concerns to have, right?
1: Thing is, big fleets have so many resources that their projects fill almost instantly. It is unlikely that a big fleet would bother forcing people in the sub-fleets to contribute to the alpha fleet first.
2: I'd be surprised if fleets bothered to force players in sub-fleets to adopt builds. DPS channels don't even enforce builds (just results).
3: This contradicts the point you tried to make in #2. That aside, why should the alpha fleet care how the players in the beta/gamma fleets play? Instead, you should be concerned about big fleets internalizing their beta & gamma fleets. Already, the big fleets are making 'overflow' fleets consisting of nobody but their own members. It is conceivable that there may be entire armadas consisting of one alpha fleet and beta/gamma fleets consisting of only fleets created by the characters already in the alpha fleet. We see this already in the 44th fleet(s) and the Reddit fleets.
Still, you have some excellent concerns in #3. Do we really want a handful of already-powerful fleet leaders to have even more power (I hope not)? Can Borticus design the armada system in such a way to prevent alpha fleet leaders from becoming even more politically powerful than they are? What will happen to an armada when an alpha fleet leader's account is compromised? Will the compromise of an alpha fleet leader's account affect the rosters of beta/gamma fleets?
Tough questions for Borticus. There better be some answers before this goes live.
DPS-Bronze, DPS-Silver, DPS-Gold, etc. are FAKE! They were created by an outvoted minority who destroyed the original DPS channels!
Tactical Team sucked, once upon a time. I got it buffed. Don't think for a minute that Cryptic ignores forum feedback.
There's a lot of concerns that the large Alpha Fleets will have undue influence on the smaller Fleets they invite as Beta and Gamma Fleets. I think these concerns, while understandable and reasonable, are largely unfounded. The Alpha Fleet in an Armada cannot affect or control the fleets under them save for kicking them out of the Armada (And even then, they can't always do even that. More details coming for that).
And if your fleet finds itself in an Armada that isn't a fit for them...just leave the Armada and find a better one! We've designed this system to be friendly to the smaller fleets who are going to want to benefit from this. The large fleets actually have very limited powers in this system.
Daniel "FlyingTarg" Razza
Star Trek Online Lead Programmer
Can a Federation and KDF fleet be in the same Armada? Because that'd be great.
The Armada System will not allow for cross-faction organizations when it launches.
We plan to spend some time later on exploring whether or not doing so would be technically feasible, and what repercussions it might entail.
For example, I know off-the-cuff that a FED player can't be invited to a KDF Starbase. So if we somehow overcame the technical hurdles that would allow these two Fleets to belong to the same Armada together, would it be fair to ask the FED Fleet to help donate to the KDF projects, if they can't reap some of the benefits?
We'll have to review it all in detail later on.
And here's the Link to the Announcement for those who missed it --> CLICK ME!
Well, in my case with Strike Team Alpha, we have our T5 Fed fleet and a couple other fleets (Vice Squad and House of Tlhap-Jen) with whom we share members, but we've also recently opened a KDF satellite fleet, House of Alphas. I've got loads of fleet marks on my two Feds and Fed Rom in STA but we're having trouble making rent, if you will, in HoA. So yes, cross-faction armadas would be a very desirable feature.
There's a lot of concerns that the large Alpha Fleets will have undue influence on the smaller Fleets they invite as Beta and Gamma Fleets. I think these concerns, while understandable and reasonable, are largely unfounded. The Alpha Fleet in an Armada cannot affect or control the fleets under them save for kicking them out of the Armada (And even then, they can't always do even that. More details coming for that).
And if your fleet finds itself in an Armada that isn't a fit for them...just leave the Armada and find a better one! We've designed this system to be friendly to the smaller fleets who are going to want to benefit from this. The large fleets actually have very limited powers in this system.
That is great to hear.
Look forward to seeing more details on this.
"I don't always test, but when I do. It is in production"
Looks like smaller fleets will get some help on this system. Already by reading this thread I see the "abuse" of some...
LIKE: My fleet is better than your fleet...why dont you come to OUR side...and small dictatorial fleet leaders thinking they are the best....so much ego...makes me laugh
Really hope this helps some fleets but at the same time they come up with a way to counter the ego of those little napoleons that might join an armada and cause DRAMA.
I'm cautiously optimistic but human nature is really unpredictable. Hope the check and balances work well on this one.
On that note...an altruistic and selfless (at least we try very hard)...no little dictator-run fleet here to our XO: @2007-2007. If you share similar views contact us
now this looks interesting.
im curious how this would benefit a fleet with two t5 starbases in a single faction. you would hope that they could somehow leverage that, but its looking like the limit is one 'large' fleet, with the others intended to be smaller underlings.
Can a Federation and KDF fleet be in the same Armada? Because that'd be great.
The Armada System will not allow for cross-faction organizations when it launches.
We plan to spend some time later on exploring whether or not doing so would be technically feasible, and what repercussions it might entail.
For example, I know off-the-cuff that a FED player can't be invited to a KDF Starbase. So if we somehow overcame the technical hurdles that would allow these two Fleets to belong to the same Armada together, would it be fair to ask the FED Fleet to help donate to the KDF projects, if they can't reap some of the benefits?
We'll have to review it all in detail later on.
And here's the Link to the Announcement for those who missed it --> CLICK ME!
Honestly, Factions don't really mean anything in this game, other than for PvP. It's long past time that some "Shaka, when the walls fell" happened here.
Not looking at merging my fleet anytime soon, till I get the workings down with the other fleet I am a part of first. Becasue there is no way in heck, I am allowing some other fleet to have any say so over my personal fleet!
now this looks interesting.
im curious how this would benefit a fleet with two t5 starbases in a single faction. you would hope that they could somehow leverage that, but its looking like the limit is one 'large' fleet, with the others intended to be smaller underlings.
You mean you have a 2nd starbase from a spillover fleet?
The system is supposed to be geared towards Large fleets helping smaller ones with the larger fleets getting the chance to have their members contributing.
Not looking at merging my fleet anytime soon, till I get the workings down with the other fleet I am a part of first. Becasue there is no way in heck, I am allowing some other fleet to have any say so over my personal fleet!
It's not a merger. From the UI image in the link Borticus gave, fleets still have total control over their fleet. I assume that you'll be able to talk about what you want from the fleet(s) you wish to join an armada with.
Not really sure how this will help smaller fleet's.
Have you ever been in a large fleet? It's nearly impossible to ever contribute to a project, so you have access to all these unlocks and no fleet credits to buy anything with, while small fleets can't open the holdings.
The large fleet brings resources, and the small fleet brings projects that need them.
Say Jello Echelon (my fleet) joins Dental. I don't "belong" to Dental, etc. etc. However, based on where they stick me in their heirarchy, I could be an "alpha" fleet with a major skill boost, a "gamma" fleet with major dilithium discounts, or a beta fleet that mixes both.
If a member of Dental wishes to donate to my JE fleet, they can do so. However, I do not have a direct line to funnel resources into Dental - they need to fill up on their own...
What Dental gets for hosting me, is more discounts based on my advancements (so the fact that I'm a T2 mine with the 9% dil discount might make me a more viable target as I'll help them fill their dil sliders up quicker...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
now this looks interesting.
im curious how this would benefit a fleet with two t5 starbases in a single faction. you would hope that they could somehow leverage that, but its looking like the limit is one 'large' fleet, with the others intended to be smaller underlings.
You mean you have a 2nd starbase from a spillover fleet?
The system is supposed to be geared towards Large fleets helping smaller ones with the larger fleets getting the chance to have their members contributing.
yes. there are currently 2 beautiful t5 kdf fleets. it looks like keeping them separate would be more beneficial than consolidating them in a single armada. its too bad you didnt get a bonus for every t5 fleet in the armada. like instead of having 2x 18 (36) fleet armadas, you could have one with 48 fleets with the 2 t5 fleet bonus.
Leave and Rejoin is how you restructure. The article was only meant to say that shuffling around of Fleets on-the-fly won't be possible when the system goes live. You can't just "move" a Gamma Fleet to the Beta Tier.
I just want to make sure I understood this correctly. There is no built-in move functionality, but gamma fleets can leave and rejoin as a beta, or vice versa.
While you're making changes to the fleet system, I hope you'll give some attention to the existing bugs in the system. The zero-timer demotion/promotion bug is quite old now:
Also, dilithium is not the only bottleneck for smaller fleets. Different fleets have different bottlenecks. In my fleet, I've often found doffs to be a bottleneck, probably because doffs aren't something you can earn just by queuing for PvE missions. You actually have to go out of your way to collect them. Yes, players with millions of fleet credits can buy doffs at the starbase (except for civilians, which for some reason were left out), but very few players do that, either because they don't want to spend their fleet credits or because, again, you have go out of your way to do so.
well, i expect there is definitely going to be some drama in the future. no doubt certain fleets will want to impose their will upon others, trying to make them change their fleet emblems, wear certain uniforms, etc.
but then consider how many of us have been letting small fleet use our holdings for nothing in return? i think most of the t5 fleets will simply be looking for places to earn fleet credit.
personally, i see great potential for the gamma fleets to be a huge liability.
Comments
They are somewhat valid yes. Keep in mind however that big fleets have nowhere to put their resources for fleet credits, they always have a vast surplus. Even building a new holding would be a breeze so they would have plenty of leftover to help each other out.
Yes, alphas might build their holdings first, but keep in mind that all the other fleets benefit from faster access to the new shinnies! Even contributing to the smaller fleets will be selfish because that's the only way for them to get fleet credits easily! So I think there may be a few concerns if your unlucky enough to be roped into a bad Armada (like Starfleet Dental) but in general I think the issues you mention resolve themselves.
They're all valid concern's.
They are legit concerns, however, no offense but if those are your concerns then you probably need to look for the right large fleet to join.
There are going to be those fleets that will not abuse the system or smaller fleets.
Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians
U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
Game Handle: Grayfox@GrayfoxJames
Website: https://www.libertytaskforce.com
Armada (STOFA Member Fleet): https://www.libertytaskforce.com/stofa
Discord: https://discord.gg/bGp9N7z
Twitter: STOFA@LTFGrayfox
Email: CSDynamix@Hotmail.com
Hopefully those different types of fleets will group together. You will have your hardcore fleets joining hardcore Armadas, RP for RP, and casual for casual.
All in all if a fleet doesn't like the rules of the Armada, they have every right not to join.
https://aldebaransectorops.com
Indeed, these would be valid concerns. As a Fleet Leader I'm considering starting an alliance/armada myself, and I would like the subourdinate fleets to be able to take care of themselves (I don't like to micromanage).
I would, however, like to meet with the fleet leaders of any potential sub-fleet and try to standardize the fleet rules across the fleets involved... This I forsee as a potential issue, though, since I tend to be fairly easy-going in terms of fleet rules, probably not a big issue.
There should be a way for fleet leaders to leave an alliance/armada, in case the fleet leader is feeling that his/her fleet is being taken advantage of or mistreated in any way, which might ease the potential for abuse by alliance/armada leader fleets.
Generally, I see this as a boon for STO as many smaller fleets could benefit from the resources that larger fleets can offer, and larger fleets could utilize the extra roster space that smaller fleets can provide!
I look forward to further news releases that provide a bit more detail on exactly what this entails.
I would never condone an Alpha Fleet imposing strict rules to the point of wearing a variant of the Alpha Fleet's uniform or enforcing certain builds, playstyles, or personalities. This is meant for us to help each other. Not to extend the influence of certain fleets.
1: Thing is, big fleets have so many resources that their projects fill almost instantly. It is unlikely that a big fleet would bother forcing people in the sub-fleets to contribute to the alpha fleet first.
2: I'd be surprised if fleets bothered to force players in sub-fleets to adopt builds. DPS channels don't even enforce builds (just results).
3: This contradicts the point you tried to make in #2. That aside, why should the alpha fleet care how the players in the beta/gamma fleets play? Instead, you should be concerned about big fleets internalizing their beta & gamma fleets. Already, the big fleets are making 'overflow' fleets consisting of nobody but their own members. It is conceivable that there may be entire armadas consisting of one alpha fleet and beta/gamma fleets consisting of only fleets created by the characters already in the alpha fleet. We see this already in the 44th fleet(s) and the Reddit fleets.
Still, you have some excellent concerns in #3. Do we really want a handful of already-powerful fleet leaders to have even more power (I hope not)? Can Borticus design the armada system in such a way to prevent alpha fleet leaders from becoming even more politically powerful than they are? What will happen to an armada when an alpha fleet leader's account is compromised? Will the compromise of an alpha fleet leader's account affect the rosters of beta/gamma fleets?
Tough questions for Borticus. There better be some answers before this goes live.
Tactical Team sucked, once upon a time. I got it buffed. Don't think for a minute that Cryptic ignores forum feedback.
Or, I don't know, maybe, PWE can post the same things to their official forums as they do to reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/3bvw0a/mmorpg_interview_with_captain_geko_on_season_105/
Note that I don't really have a problem with reddit, just a problem with PWE and Cryptic employees neglecting to post things to their own forums.
And if your fleet finds itself in an Armada that isn't a fit for them...just leave the Armada and find a better one! We've designed this system to be friendly to the smaller fleets who are going to want to benefit from this. The large fleets actually have very limited powers in this system.
Star Trek Online Lead Programmer
Well, in my case with Strike Team Alpha, we have our T5 Fed fleet and a couple other fleets (Vice Squad and House of Tlhap-Jen) with whom we share members, but we've also recently opened a KDF satellite fleet, House of Alphas. I've got loads of fleet marks on my two Feds and Fed Rom in STA but we're having trouble making rent, if you will, in HoA. So yes, cross-faction armadas would be a very desirable feature.
That is great to hear.
Look forward to seeing more details on this.
https://aldebaransectorops.com
LIKE: My fleet is better than your fleet...why dont you come to OUR side...and small dictatorial fleet leaders thinking they are the best....so much ego...makes me laugh
Really hope this helps some fleets but at the same time they come up with a way to counter the ego of those little napoleons that might join an armada and cause DRAMA.
I'm cautiously optimistic but human nature is really unpredictable. Hope the check and balances work well on this one.
On that note...an altruistic and selfless (at least we try very hard)...no little dictator-run fleet here to our XO: @2007-2007. If you share similar views contact us
im curious how this would benefit a fleet with two t5 starbases in a single faction. you would hope that they could somehow leverage that, but its looking like the limit is one 'large' fleet, with the others intended to be smaller underlings.
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Honestly, Factions don't really mean anything in this game, other than for PvP. It's long past time that some "Shaka, when the walls fell" happened here.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
You mean you have a 2nd starbase from a spillover fleet?
The system is supposed to be geared towards Large fleets helping smaller ones with the larger fleets getting the chance to have their members contributing.
It's not a merger. From the UI image in the link Borticus gave, fleets still have total control over their fleet. I assume that you'll be able to talk about what you want from the fleet(s) you wish to join an armada with.
Have you ever been in a large fleet? It's nearly impossible to ever contribute to a project, so you have access to all these unlocks and no fleet credits to buy anything with, while small fleets can't open the holdings.
The large fleet brings resources, and the small fleet brings projects that need them.
Say Jello Echelon (my fleet) joins Dental. I don't "belong" to Dental, etc. etc. However, based on where they stick me in their heirarchy, I could be an "alpha" fleet with a major skill boost, a "gamma" fleet with major dilithium discounts, or a beta fleet that mixes both.
If a member of Dental wishes to donate to my JE fleet, they can do so. However, I do not have a direct line to funnel resources into Dental - they need to fill up on their own...
What Dental gets for hosting me, is more discounts based on my advancements (so the fact that I'm a T2 mine with the 9% dil discount might make me a more viable target as I'll help them fill their dil sliders up quicker...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
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Just a glimpse of the future, what to expect lol...
Anyway, I think this will be a new Game of Thrones level of powerplay... looking forward to it.
While you're making changes to the fleet system, I hope you'll give some attention to the existing bugs in the system. The zero-timer demotion/promotion bug is quite old now:
http://perfectworld.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1182456/fleet-admiral-will-be-demoted-in-0-00-issue-bug
http://perfectworld.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1193164/rank-7-title-will-be-demoted-in-0-00-fleet-rank-7-demotion-countdown-stuck-bug
There are also a number of UI bugs in the fleet window.
Also, dilithium is not the only bottleneck for smaller fleets. Different fleets have different bottlenecks. In my fleet, I've often found doffs to be a bottleneck, probably because doffs aren't something you can earn just by queuing for PvE missions. You actually have to go out of your way to collect them. Yes, players with millions of fleet credits can buy doffs at the starbase (except for civilians, which for some reason were left out), but very few players do that, either because they don't want to spend their fleet credits or because, again, you have go out of your way to do so.
but then consider how many of us have been letting small fleet use our holdings for nothing in return? i think most of the t5 fleets will simply be looking for places to earn fleet credit.
personally, i see great potential for the gamma fleets to be a huge liability.
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