they even fired smirk, and one of the really good content devs aparently
Matt had posted last year while talking about tweaking Advanced and making sure Elite was a challenge for folks...meh, had hoped that he was going to be able to bring some Positron to the Elite content there.
Course, his last posts had been about the Omega doohickey stuff...and Jaddua's name is on the bottom of the new blog about the new Iconian queue. /shrug
In a way, the (perceived) high level of toxicity within the PvP community was an inherent and predictable consequence of the games shortcomings and ignorance of the people in charge.
Street Fighter series
StarCraft
League Of Legends
All positive examples of how to design and maintain positive PvP gaming experience.
Now, as a thought experiment, let's imagine Cryptic being in charge to maintain and expand these titles, exposing above-mentioned games to treatment similar to how they treated Star Trek Online.
Imagine a new playable character introduced in Street Fighter, or a new faction in StarCraft, that renders existing characters / factions ineffective and obsolete. Or introducing new powers and concepts without properly validating the impact and dependencies they may come with. And even if a new addition turned out to have an overall negative impact (or worse, if something got released broken), Cryptic was usually reluctant to rectify any issue. I don't know how many people remember it, but it took a live video broadcast to corner a developer to finally acknockledge a PvP-breaking game bug that was going on forever.
If you need players to voluntary abstain from exploiting coding bugs or broken dependencies, just for conserving sensible gaming experience, you're in trouble.
League of Legends is a fairly complex game with a lot of dependencies, and somehow Riot Games is able to maintain a positive gaming experience with a very vibrant PvP tournament scene.
Legimitate balancing concerns by players were often considered as annoying and mere "trouble making". Cryptic had a business to run, why should they be concerned about 14-year old basement-dwelling PvP min-maxers, remember? :rolleyes:
There is also an another development that I am a bit reluctant to publicly address.
In my opinion, the decline of PvP community is deeply intertwined with the retreat / retirement of a class of people that I'd describe as Intelligentsia...
If you had any personal dealings with people like Pug01, Hilbert, Naz, Pax, Sargon, Jorf, MT, Virusdancer, then you'll know what I mean.
I am refering to people with engineering or other comparable technical education, people who are academic in background, outlook, or methods.
Such people tend to have more time-consuming responsibilities in their private lifes. Don't misunderstand though, I am only describing a loose general, yet certainly measurable tendency here, please put your pitchforks away....
Any addition of grind and time-sinks, any introduction of unbalanced and unproperly validated skills and items, any reduction of depth and complexity (=dumbing down the game) inherently carried a danger of alienating these people further and further. Just recently, Rand Al Thor voiced a similar opinion in a more blunt way. You may want to look it up.
In my opinion, that bleeding took its toll onto our PvP community. Certainly, others moved up. But knowledge, experience, the ability to tackle and analyse problems with a sound methodology, the ability to understand ramifications beyond the obvious, reflection, emotional and social intelligence, the will to "service" the community, all that diminished over time.
Lord knows I love @*redacted*, he is a wonderful person and an awesome PvP'er. But he does not have the desire (and maybe not the personal background) to become the next @pug01 or @virusdancer...
Unfortunately, this game is becoming more and more Mary Sue Online. The entire STO storyline is like badly written Mary Sue fanfic, with us the player playing the protagonist. The blame lies with Cryptic. The people in charge over there are probably Voyager-Fans... xD
Lord knows I love @*redacted*, he is a wonderful person and an awesome PvP'er. But he does not have the desire (and maybe not the personal background) to become the next @pug01 or @virusdancer...
Aw, I love you too! You don't need to hide it anymore. LET THE WORLD KNOW!
Bootcamp ran into organizer fatigue and fell prey to the runaway power-creep of the D'Angelo term-there just weren't enough people to cover losses in staff and eventually (If I'm reading it right) the guys running it ran out of the 'wanna'-it became work instead of fun. Didn't help that the D'angelo period saw grind-after-grind-after-grind-after-grind of "Must Haves" that were on the face of them broken.
Somewhat.
In it's first series of classes for that original group of students, pretty much all the big PvP fleets were in on it, and had agreed to let it all go. Sargon, the founder and leader of Bootcamp, after those first classes, had a major job opportunity appear for him, and he took it. However, between that, and the rivalries starting to bleed into Bootcamp, it eventually lost much of it's support and many PvPers simply stopped with it.
It continued, albeit it much smaller on the whole, for the remainder of Branflakes' tenure as CM here. Heck, had he stayed longer, I feel that Bootcamp probably would've kept right on going at least until season 9 or before DR. Smirk basically ignoring us no matter what we tried, killed any hope of the students getting their proper reward from there on out.
Honestly though, any power creep or other issues that arose during the time Bootcamp went, were usually 'baby steps'. It got worse and worse, that's true, but still relatively small and tolerable. We could adjust and teach around them. The crafting revamp, the upgrade system, and eventually DR itself though were the final straws though for any final desire, at least for myself, to continue Bootcamp.
I guess in the end, it was death by a thousand cuts that really ended Bootcamp. Some big 'cuts' in there, true, but it was also a bunch of little things that simply wore it down over time.
Unfortunately, this game is becoming more and more Mary Sue Online. The entire STO storyline is like badly written Mary Sue fanfic, with us the player playing the protagonist. The blame lies with Cryptic. The people in charge over there are probably Voyager-Fans... xD
They are actually. Least if what I've heard is right.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
is there any form of pvp in sto that you find fun?
Aside from the occasional forum pvp?
Joke aside, Space PvP can still be fun Imho. I am simply not willing anymore to grind up my rep, spec etc, or to spend more money for ships etc. Not willing to prepare at all. Not willing to spend time. Unfortunately, success in PvP requires some preparation and dedication, so...
The problem with your approach, is that you're trying to get Cryptic to do something without giving them a busiiness-case reason to do it, and without any evidence it will actually work.
Your campaign dies in-utero, because Crptic/PWE sees a metric of a PvP community in severe decline, not a PvP community in a phase of growth.
The question was what can we as a community do. for now, assume the decision-making at Cryptic is a faceless outsider to the community-which it is. We do not have a dedicated Dev, rumours have it they just sacked their CM, so assume we don't have that, and we've got to work this 'by the numbers'.
The numbers being the Metrics.
It's safe to assume after reading the pages of response here, that bringing back players who've migrated is a non-starter and that they aren't coming back any time soon, because they won't come back until changes at cryptic are made, which won't be made because the community is shrinking...
Means we need new players.
How do we get those?
Once we've got them, how do we keep them on long enough have an impact that reaches the numbers and makes the Devs notice us again?
The only way to salvage the PvP mess we have and have always had is to make it FUN to play
Believe it or not Noobs to PvP don't have a lot of fun blowing up in 10 seconds 15 times in a row because they meet up with a Veteran player with the best PTW gear...im serious the noob isn't having fun here
To salvage whats here and whats to come in STO , a ranking system has to be made that issues correct values in combat for Gear and the players win record to a number that is a approx. of his battlevalue in PvP
matches are made with a limit of battle values not number of players
That's the only way you can balance such imbalanced ships and players
with honest battlevalue it could be 2 expert players against 12 other players , It would be a much more balanced fight than these 2 experts taking on only 2 of these 12
If it isn't Fun they wont play
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Of course there are skillful players in the T6 era.
New talent and skill did emerge all the time and is still emerging. That won't change.
Meta is what people play.
A very basic way of measuring skill could be a simple PvP match. But since you can't play against someone who does not play any more, you can't conduct such measurement. So, comparing skill of people that played in different time periods would not be a trivial task. At the end, it could deterioate to faith and unprovable subjective beliefs.
What cannot be easily replaced however (and what could be measured to a degree), would be certain in-depth knowledge. Inner workings of abilities, (inter-)dependencies, game mechanics and the "physical" rules that govern them, "secret" keybind-commands and similar stuff.
Some of the people I described as "Intelligentsia" in one of my previous posts did discover a lot of things and worked hard to unlock the games secrets, and I can assure you, with the retirement of some these guys a lot of knowledge and tricks did get lost. Basically they took it to the grave. Keep in mind, some of these guys are avid computer scientists and programmed tools and deciphered the inner workings of certain mechanics and they released a lot of their findings into the public domain. Which provided and still provides everyone who is interested in PvP a huge library from they can learn. Ever used Hilberts plug-ins, or pug01's tools? Ever read virusdancers calculations? Or hellspawnies damage calculator? Ever looked at tables concerning weapons damage? Or similiar stuff?
Some advanced stuff however, has been lost. In theory, someone could come along and reinvent the wheel again, but that someone would need to have proficiency in math and computer science and a lot of dedication and time.
I got in a fight with a Sci on Otha. He was using the stacis pistol ,Elachi, endothem, mod and black hole doff and something else... but, I was in a cloud of darkness the whole time. When you see one do it they will all be doing it soon. Ground pvp is too small in scale and the game too fubar to be taken seriously.
We need some new game mode built around what we have with a higher player capacity. 30on30? Much larger maps. Multiple objectives. etx...
I guess what you are trying to say is that you haven't customized your keybinds with any "advanced" stuff, like keyboard shortcuts, or that you haven't bound multiple actions onto one key.
Because you cannot use a keyboard without keybinds.
If you don't use keybinds, then you can't use a keyboard.
If your ship does something when you press the spacebar, then you are using keybinds.
please execute the command: /keyboard
It will show you what keybinds are active on what key.
further, please execute the command: /keybinds
It will also show you what keybinds are active on what key.
Why shouldn't I be able to play as a Tal Shiar agent or a Borg Cube in a PvP match to make things interesting? They wouldn't need to be full PvE factions. I might be interested in throwing down in a Jem'Hadar vs Breen fracas, if it were an option.
Taken one way, that could segue into something like DCUO's Legends PvP mode, where players pick from a roster of premade characters they've earned and go at it - here, the ships and their stations would be preconfigured, but you'd still have access to your personal skills/traits. Note that some of the mechanics underlying this are already extant in the game (recall that one mission in the DR arc where you got to fly a Manasa-class ship). The simulation files for ships to use in this mode can, like in DCUO, be purchasable from a particular vendor; others would be earned with certain accolades (i.e. 'Assault Vessel Ambusher' unlocks the Manasa; 'Vaadwaur Vessel Vanquisher' gives you the Astika)... which, incidentally, also means players get to test them out here and see if they're something they want to invest in for use 'outside'.
Another variant I thought of recently takes a page from Evolve. Imagine, if you will, a half-dozen players: one is chosen at random to operate the 'monster' (i.e. Tarantula, Donatra's custom Scimitar, etc.); the others are the team of hunters, using their own ships. When the big guy goes down, one of the hunters is chosen at random to play the monster next round (no duplicate rolls); the game ends when all six have had a go as the monster, and victory goes to whoever gets the most kills in that role.
Yet another scenario: consider a variant of The Vault: Ensnared. The players have gotten through the first two phases, and how have to contend with the Tholian fleet as well as the flagship and its escorts (who will escape after X time has elapsed. Now imagine that those escorts are in fact controlled by other players, who have queued up to be the Red team in this exercise. While Blue has the same victory and bonus conditions as in the 'vanilla' scenario, Red wins simply by thwarting that bonus objective (note that this does not cost Blue the overall victory).
was there any discussion for bootcamp to continue on in any form?
are you and the boys closing it down with your departures from the game and guys lack of wanting to see bootcamp move on?
was there no students that seemed to have the right stuff to carry the torch forward? no fellow pvpers that had talent to take bootcamp into the next era for a whole new generation of pvpers?
thoughts?
*edit: am drinking, late, simple misspell;)
Well, I feel I can safely that at least, for Kolln, Drk, and myself, yes, we're all done with Bootcamp. Drk in particular has made it no secret in his few posts on these forums post-DR that he has gotten sick of what has happened to STO. Kolln has pretty much given up as well, even removing the Bootcamp area from his TS server, and I hardly see either of them online. Even my own time spent in the game is much less than it once was.
Jedinikon had a lot of ideas about continuing Bootcamp, and often times was there to help coach when the classes were much smaller, but I've not heard a thing from him in months. Haven't seen him in game either.
Now, Gio back in December did show interest in continuing it, but it seems like nothing has really come of it.
I think there might've been other students and/or coaches who had an interest in also continuing Bootcamp, but I forget their names if they did, and few of the students and even the coaches from that time are even playing the game anymore. Even if there are, who knows how into PvP they are anymore with how the game has gone.
Honestly I suppose I never really wanted to see Bootcamp stopped because of burn out on my part, I got tired of what was added to the game time and time again, making it more and more difficult to justify wanting to teach people and bring them into the ever-growing mess that was PvP. Like I said in my previous post, PvP pre-season 9 and DR had plenty of issues big and small, but otherwise you could still make it work. With everything since, it's far too much of a mess for me to want to bother.
Heck, I don't even PvP at all anymore. Hannibal's tourney he'd been kinda organizing was going to be a swan song of sorts for me in making it my last PvP, but even that died out.
All this aside, I'm not against someone still wanting to TRY and make Bootcamp happen again. I'm glad to pass along the torch if someone wanted to. I just give a fair note of caution as well. Namely that trying to run all of that is a lot more work, and you'd really need to have to dedicate a lot of time, much more than you might think, to organizing all of that.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
The biggest problem with a reward system like you propose is most Veteran players with top PTW gear arnt the least bit motivated by rewards
They will pug stomp all night long and not bat a eye
And pug stomping is what destroys PvP
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Comments
they even fired smirk, and one of the really good content devs aparently
Matt had posted last year while talking about tweaking Advanced and making sure Elite was a challenge for folks...meh, had hoped that he was going to be able to bring some Positron to the Elite content there.
Course, his last posts had been about the Omega doohickey stuff...and Jaddua's name is on the bottom of the new blog about the new Iconian queue. /shrug
All positive examples of how to design and maintain positive PvP gaming experience.
Now, as a thought experiment, let's imagine Cryptic being in charge to maintain and expand these titles, exposing above-mentioned games to treatment similar to how they treated Star Trek Online.
Imagine a new playable character introduced in Street Fighter, or a new faction in StarCraft, that renders existing characters / factions ineffective and obsolete. Or introducing new powers and concepts without properly validating the impact and dependencies they may come with. And even if a new addition turned out to have an overall negative impact (or worse, if something got released broken), Cryptic was usually reluctant to rectify any issue. I don't know how many people remember it, but it took a live video broadcast to corner a developer to finally acknockledge a PvP-breaking game bug that was going on forever.
If you need players to voluntary abstain from exploiting coding bugs or broken dependencies, just for conserving sensible gaming experience, you're in trouble.
League of Legends is a fairly complex game with a lot of dependencies, and somehow Riot Games is able to maintain a positive gaming experience with a very vibrant PvP tournament scene.
Legimitate balancing concerns by players were often considered as annoying and mere "trouble making". Cryptic had a business to run, why should they be concerned about 14-year old basement-dwelling PvP min-maxers, remember? :rolleyes:
Nuclear launch not detected???? LAUNCH IT NOW FOR THE LOW LOW PRICE OF 18,000 DILITHIUM!
Thats what a good game would look like if it was given to cryptic.
In my opinion, the decline of PvP community is deeply intertwined with the retreat / retirement of a class of people that I'd describe as Intelligentsia...
If you had any personal dealings with people like Pug01, Hilbert, Naz, Pax, Sargon, Jorf, MT, Virusdancer, then you'll know what I mean.
I am refering to people with engineering or other comparable technical education, people who are academic in background, outlook, or methods.
Such people tend to have more time-consuming responsibilities in their private lifes. Don't misunderstand though, I am only describing a loose general, yet certainly measurable tendency here, please put your pitchforks away....
Any addition of grind and time-sinks, any introduction of unbalanced and unproperly validated skills and items, any reduction of depth and complexity (=dumbing down the game) inherently carried a danger of alienating these people further and further. Just recently, Rand Al Thor voiced a similar opinion in a more blunt way. You may want to look it up.
In my opinion, that bleeding took its toll onto our PvP community. Certainly, others moved up. But knowledge, experience, the ability to tackle and analyse problems with a sound methodology, the ability to understand ramifications beyond the obvious, reflection, emotional and social intelligence, the will to "service" the community, all that diminished over time.
Lord knows I love @*redacted*, he is a wonderful person and an awesome PvP'er. But he does not have the desire (and maybe not the personal background) to become the next @pug01 or @virusdancer...
Unfortunately, this game is becoming more and more Mary Sue Online. The entire STO storyline is like badly written Mary Sue fanfic, with us the player playing the protagonist. The blame lies with Cryptic. The people in charge over there are probably Voyager-Fans... xD
Aw, I love you too! You don't need to hide it anymore. LET THE WORLD KNOW!
http://i.imgur.com/o3dusAq.gif
http://i.imgur.com/3H7L9ZF.png
http://i.imgur.com/KscfLHc.gif
Somewhat.
In it's first series of classes for that original group of students, pretty much all the big PvP fleets were in on it, and had agreed to let it all go. Sargon, the founder and leader of Bootcamp, after those first classes, had a major job opportunity appear for him, and he took it. However, between that, and the rivalries starting to bleed into Bootcamp, it eventually lost much of it's support and many PvPers simply stopped with it.
It continued, albeit it much smaller on the whole, for the remainder of Branflakes' tenure as CM here. Heck, had he stayed longer, I feel that Bootcamp probably would've kept right on going at least until season 9 or before DR. Smirk basically ignoring us no matter what we tried, killed any hope of the students getting their proper reward from there on out.
Honestly though, any power creep or other issues that arose during the time Bootcamp went, were usually 'baby steps'. It got worse and worse, that's true, but still relatively small and tolerable. We could adjust and teach around them. The crafting revamp, the upgrade system, and eventually DR itself though were the final straws though for any final desire, at least for myself, to continue Bootcamp.
I guess in the end, it was death by a thousand cuts that really ended Bootcamp. Some big 'cuts' in there, true, but it was also a bunch of little things that simply wore it down over time.
They are actually. Least if what I've heard is right.
Goodness - WE'VE ALL BEEN HAD! THEY WERE THE SAME ALL ALONG!
Aside from the occasional forum pvp?
Joke aside, Space PvP can still be fun Imho. I am simply not willing anymore to grind up my rep, spec etc, or to spend more money for ships etc. Not willing to prepare at all. Not willing to spend time. Unfortunately, success in PvP requires some preparation and dedication, so...
I do care about balance though, and I've been told that some of the worst offenders got fixed finally.
What I was trying to say is that PvP requires time and money.
I got the money, but I do not have the time anymore.
The only way to salvage the PvP mess we have and have always had is to make it FUN to play
Believe it or not Noobs to PvP don't have a lot of fun blowing up in 10 seconds 15 times in a row because they meet up with a Veteran player with the best PTW gear...im serious the noob isn't having fun here
To salvage whats here and whats to come in STO , a ranking system has to be made that issues correct values in combat for Gear and the players win record to a number that is a approx. of his battlevalue in PvP
matches are made with a limit of battle values not number of players
That's the only way you can balance such imbalanced ships and players
with honest battlevalue it could be 2 expert players against 12 other players , It would be a much more balanced fight than these 2 experts taking on only 2 of these 12
If it isn't Fun they wont play
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
New talent and skill did emerge all the time and is still emerging. That won't change.
Meta is what people play.
A very basic way of measuring skill could be a simple PvP match. But since you can't play against someone who does not play any more, you can't conduct such measurement. So, comparing skill of people that played in different time periods would not be a trivial task. At the end, it could deterioate to faith and unprovable subjective beliefs.
What cannot be easily replaced however (and what could be measured to a degree), would be certain in-depth knowledge. Inner workings of abilities, (inter-)dependencies, game mechanics and the "physical" rules that govern them, "secret" keybind-commands and similar stuff.
Some of the people I described as "Intelligentsia" in one of my previous posts did discover a lot of things and worked hard to unlock the games secrets, and I can assure you, with the retirement of some these guys a lot of knowledge and tricks did get lost. Basically they took it to the grave. Keep in mind, some of these guys are avid computer scientists and programmed tools and deciphered the inner workings of certain mechanics and they released a lot of their findings into the public domain. Which provided and still provides everyone who is interested in PvP a huge library from they can learn. Ever used Hilberts plug-ins, or pug01's tools? Ever read virusdancers calculations? Or hellspawnies damage calculator? Ever looked at tables concerning weapons damage? Or similiar stuff?
Some advanced stuff however, has been lost. In theory, someone could come along and reinvent the wheel again, but that someone would need to have proficiency in math and computer science and a lot of dedication and time.
We need some new game mode built around what we have with a higher player capacity. 30on30? Much larger maps. Multiple objectives. etx...
Visit my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/Akurie369?feature=watch
Captain Bi Shonen's official Thread! http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=22866531#post22866531
%stogamefolder%\Live\mykeybinds.txt
If there is any content in that file, then you are using keybinds.
I think we are mixing up things there.
I guess what you are trying to say is that you haven't customized your keybinds with any "advanced" stuff, like keyboard shortcuts, or that you haven't bound multiple actions onto one key.
Because you cannot use a keyboard without keybinds.
If you don't use keybinds, then you can't use a keyboard.
If your ship does something when you press the spacebar, then you are using keybinds.
please execute the command: /keyboard
It will show you what keybinds are active on what key.
further, please execute the command: /keybinds
It will also show you what keybinds are active on what key.
Another variant I thought of recently takes a page from Evolve. Imagine, if you will, a half-dozen players: one is chosen at random to operate the 'monster' (i.e. Tarantula, Donatra's custom Scimitar, etc.); the others are the team of hunters, using their own ships. When the big guy goes down, one of the hunters is chosen at random to play the monster next round (no duplicate rolls); the game ends when all six have had a go as the monster, and victory goes to whoever gets the most kills in that role.
Yet another scenario: consider a variant of The Vault: Ensnared. The players have gotten through the first two phases, and how have to contend with the Tholian fleet as well as the flagship and its escorts (who will escape after X time has elapsed. Now imagine that those escorts are in fact controlled by other players, who have queued up to be the Red team in this exercise. While Blue has the same victory and bonus conditions as in the 'vanilla' scenario, Red wins simply by thwarting that bonus objective (note that this does not cost Blue the overall victory).
Well, I feel I can safely that at least, for Kolln, Drk, and myself, yes, we're all done with Bootcamp. Drk in particular has made it no secret in his few posts on these forums post-DR that he has gotten sick of what has happened to STO. Kolln has pretty much given up as well, even removing the Bootcamp area from his TS server, and I hardly see either of them online. Even my own time spent in the game is much less than it once was.
Jedinikon had a lot of ideas about continuing Bootcamp, and often times was there to help coach when the classes were much smaller, but I've not heard a thing from him in months. Haven't seen him in game either.
Now, Gio back in December did show interest in continuing it, but it seems like nothing has really come of it.
I think there might've been other students and/or coaches who had an interest in also continuing Bootcamp, but I forget their names if they did, and few of the students and even the coaches from that time are even playing the game anymore. Even if there are, who knows how into PvP they are anymore with how the game has gone.
Honestly I suppose I never really wanted to see Bootcamp stopped because of burn out on my part, I got tired of what was added to the game time and time again, making it more and more difficult to justify wanting to teach people and bring them into the ever-growing mess that was PvP. Like I said in my previous post, PvP pre-season 9 and DR had plenty of issues big and small, but otherwise you could still make it work. With everything since, it's far too much of a mess for me to want to bother.
Heck, I don't even PvP at all anymore. Hannibal's tourney he'd been kinda organizing was going to be a swan song of sorts for me in making it my last PvP, but even that died out.
All this aside, I'm not against someone still wanting to TRY and make Bootcamp happen again. I'm glad to pass along the torch if someone wanted to. I just give a fair note of caution as well. Namely that trying to run all of that is a lot more work, and you'd really need to have to dedicate a lot of time, much more than you might think, to organizing all of that.
They will pug stomp all night long and not bat a eye
And pug stomping is what destroys PvP
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse