another poster earlier mentioned its not the players responsiblity to create events, balance the rules, etc is 100% correct as well
and we all recognize that star trek online is first and foremost a pve game and that the developers see it as that and their chief concern is how to fleece the money neccessary to keep the game profitable
but all that aside, in the end we do have a complex question to answer: how do you get a player that logs into the game to click- join pvp cue OR how do you get a player that logs into the game to check a chat channel AND THEN join a private match?
is there anything that can be done in an organized fashion by the pvp population that could increase these likelihoods? IS it even possible to have something like tyler, opvp, vanillia, t5u, etc that COULD WORK?
how does the pvp population go about making it happen?
Campaign for a PvP only server like red shirt so you can get the mechanics balanced
no one in there right mind will Q up for pvp more than a few times as it is and as it has been
Then you got to campaign for it to more resemble ...you know how starships fought in the films and shows and not like some fighter game with wizards in funny hats shooing magic spells at you
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Once we've got them, how do we keep them on long enough have an impact that reaches the numbers and makes the Devs notice us again?
The problem is, and I hate to be the naysayer here, is that STO PvP has been losing players ever since I started to PvP, back in S2.
There is really nothing short of a massive undertaking to reverse this trend. Massive meaning lots of time devoted by players to setup a system that works to circumvent Cryptic's TRIBBLE, then promoting it to the PvE'ers in hopes of finding some that have a competitive spirit needed to learn and stick with PvP.
Don't forget Cryptic won't stay silent for long: they will come out with other TRIBBLE that will needed to be circumvented.
I would say that, barring an exceptional individual setting this up, this is not a possibility.
I'll go beyond that naysayer angle...and kind of be blunt about it.
What kind of person would you want to inflict the PvP in this game on? Is that the kind of person that you'd actually want to interact with in any fashion?
I don't think any absolution could be given for recommending this game for PvP and it's a ticket straight to the lowest depths of Hell...
How do we get them? We lie.
How do we keep them? We take pet goldfish and gerbils hostage.
"come here, we got awesome virus-candysticks.... and... and... big glasses with full off what u can think of to get u virtually that stoned that u'll never get off that couch again mwahahaha"...
don't ask me, i know that post makes no sense lol... fits the gameprogression perfectly i'd say ...
on a serious note:
imo a (big?) part of driving players away who found their way into sto-pvp before always has been the ever changing meta and the revamps for several systems, without regard/player-friendly-compensation referring on the systems that had been in place before (look r&d).
the game changes sometimes so fast by revamps, new introductions or single items (everything mostly connected to a grind) that's already a pain to some more experienced players.
but for newbies who are just dipping in, learning some and then, the latest with the next update, realizing that most of what they've learned just became (partly) obsolete such way doesn't seem attractive, does it?
when i compare this and reversively relate the question to shooters, i think one fact that makes them attractive, at least to me, is that almost nothing about fundamental basics really ever change there.
a gun, an enemy, pewpewpew. new maps, attachments, vehicles and whatsoever, of course. but mostly the differencies between single items are slightly in comparison to what we got here.
at least that's one of the things i for myself really enjoy about shooters. playin bf4 is kind of the same thrilling experience than playing operation flashpoint cold war crisis online years ago.
and somehow it doesn't get dull .
funny enough, that ride doesn't start until you hit Level 50, and doesn't really get rolling until you're so buried in PvE grind you can't see the surface.
I remember leveling my Fed Ferengi Engineer named Token enough so I could unlock KDF. I remember the PvE queues being dead for KDF, no patrols...just Empire Defense and Pi Canis to try to fill the big gaps between missions. And in that process, finding just how enjoyable sub 50 PvP could be.
I remember leveling an actual Fed toon, just to see the other side the whole way through. Wham, bam, done...with the PvE queues and patrols, could take a Fed 1-50 faster than a KDF 20-50.
I remember buying my first pair of additional character slots, trying to fast level a KDF and to slow level a Fed. I remember all the whining Feds did, and not really wanting to be associated with them. I remember the sheer amount of douchebaggery that some KDF would do at 50 at not wanting to be associated with them.
I enjoyed doing the KDF thing 20-49, but I wanted to /bitchslap the KDF at 50.
Things changed some, and I just wanted to /bitchslap the Feds for all the whining even at 50.
Then we get into S7...and...sub-50 had already started to die. Game was already on the blink 'n yer 50 path. And well, hrmm, yeah...from S7 on things just kept getting worse and worse at 50. Hell, I think I posted at the end of 2013 that I was done with PvP...I deleted all my Feds, rerolled all my guys KDF, and went off to lala land to work on my solo fleet and just dork around.
The PvE was so mind-numbing though, and I started to hit up Ker'rat again. Then some CnH. Then some Arena. Wheeee, something more than falling asleep with my face on the spacebar. All the TRIBBLE was still there, but I didn't care...the PvE was just that bad. Should have just walked away from the game; but I kind of had fun dorking around with the mechanics stuff more and more and more.
Get into the talk leading up to Delta Rising and so forth...and...Cryptic finally hammered the last nail in the coffin of my desire to play KDF. I'd had it all planned out, all the ships I was going to upgrade, getting more toons for new ships, and the rest...and...yeah, no. I deleted everybody again and rolled a single Fed.
Sure, around that time I got involved with IC - everybody was looking at stuff, planning and plotting how to make the best out of everything...by the time Cryptic made the Command Specialization announcement, they were all gone. So I basically stopped doing the PvP thing too.
Once again, mind-numbing PvE. Once again, heading to Ker'rat. But it was different...just wasn't the same.
Outside of logging in to test something because somebody mentioned/questioned something or to look at something new Cryptic mentioned...I've been logging in for around 5-6 minutes a day since the Crystalline event started. Just long enough to do that...and I'm logged out again.
I was running my 10 Klingon Dilithium Force guys two to three times a day to feed my Fed Klingon...then that became one to two times a day...which became once every couple of days...which became once a week if that...which became I can't even remember the last time I bothered doing that. Hell, I had even deleted one of them to reroll a proper KDF guy to play; but as I was sitting there in the character creator...I just /facepalmed at just wtf I was doing and stopped. Though I'm still thinking about rolling a KDF toon for Delta Recruits, deleting the Fed, and just playing this as an extremely casual once in a blue moon solo player game...since well, that's basically what Cryptic has made it.
I remember when the girlfriend's son was looking for a new game to play, and she said maybe I should talk to him about playing this game. And well, no, I just couldn't do it. What the Hell did the kid ever do to me that I'd recommend this game to him....
another reason to me seems, that any player-driven initiative was like doomed from the start imo. as much i (really!) appreciate all the attempts great folks came up with.
if there's no support company-side and no regard in terms of things like balance, items tested and altered by the community before release, nothing player-driven can survive in the long run imo.
like someone mentioned, it all has been there... even to the point where drkfrontiers set up a virtual territory-control system that would have been awesome with thousands of players (one can dream).
but every support we may once had vanished over the time, so this or that referring single attempts got altered and screwed it all up.
how can one keep something stable that changes its conditions every six months?
how to fix sto pvp in whole?
my answer: cryptic would have to change their whole attitude/policy regarding pvp!
the synergies while balancing the game around pvp, even the pve environment, would solve a lot of the games' problems imho (things like smarting-up ai, scaling damage and npc-ships hps' in relation to playerships and so on).
ok... all this now even to me sounds more like the babbling of someone who just decided to drink the whole cellar empty in a single sip lol. not because of the content, but because of the unlikeliness to see such happen .
That is why the only way to have fun in PvP in STO is for everyone interested roll a new character and level it up to Lt Com.
Then don't do anymore missions, don't do anything with the character but PvP. PvP rewards are TRIBBLE so you won't level your toon anywhere fast.
And if you want alts it will take you 2 days (if you're slow) to get it ready.
That just gets into smurfing/twinking/all the other names it's been given in various games though, no? It's a trip too, cause that would even fit in with one game's level 19 twinks from back in the day, lol.
You basically just end up with the most massively overpowered characters at that level.
You're going to have...
Tac w/ APA & FoMM
Eng w/ RSF & EPS
Sci w/ Scan & SNB
Feds will have: Cruiser Refit, Escort Refit, Science Vessel Refit
Roms will have: Dhael
KDF will have: Qaw'Dun, Somraw, K'Tanco
You'll have the folks that crafted their VR2 gear, did it over and over until they got UR3 gear, and did it over and over until they got G4 gear.
You'll have folks that can use cross-faction consoles from Lock Boxes while the original faction can't use them.
There won't be any Starship Traits nor Reputation Traits, but there will still be Lock Box Traits. Hell, folks could even manage R&D Traits.
Roms will still have their SRO/Subs/Infils. KDF will still have their Pirates. Both KDF/Feds could use the Embassy SROs.
With the way heals scale off of ship tier...with the damage potential being done...it would be little more than a TPS fragfest.
And well, if folks wanted that, they've probably gone and found a game built around providing that instead of having to fudge it themselves.
That just gets into smurfing/twinking/all the other names it's been given in various games though, no? It's a trip too, cause that would even fit in with one game's level 19 twinks from back in the day, lol.
You basically just end up with the most massively overpowered characters at that level.
You're going to have...
Tac w/ APA & FoMM
Eng w/ RSF & EPS
Sci w/ Scan & SNB
Feds will have: Cruiser Refit, Escort Refit, Science Vessel Refit
Roms will have: Dhael
KDF will have: Qaw'Dun, Somraw, K'Tanco
You'll have the folks that crafted their VR2 gear, did it over and over until they got UR3 gear, and did it over and over until they got G4 gear.
You'll have folks that can use cross-faction consoles from Lock Boxes while the original faction can't use them.
There won't be any Starship Traits nor Reputation Traits, but there will still be Lock Box Traits. Hell, folks could even manage R&D Traits.
Roms will still have their SRO/Subs/Infils. KDF will still have their Pirates. Both KDF/Feds could use the Embassy SROs.
With the way heals scale off of ship tier...with the damage potential being done...it would be little more than a TPS fragfest.
And well, if folks wanted that, they've probably gone and found a game built around providing that instead of having to fudge it themselves.
Heh, it would just get into any of the endeavors where some folks have had an idea that could work...if folks agreed to work it...but folks like their goodies too much.
All the years of folks complaining that X was OP, there were always the folks using X telling the other folks to shut up. Moar dakka!
Folks could probably get it working up to 49 if they agreed to it...agreed to exclude certain things. But keeping it low, like that T2 there would make it more accessible...somebody ended up leveling out of the range, wouldn't be too hard to make another toon there.
Would just be a case of folks agreeing not to push the limits of what was possible.
Ultimately there was nothing the community (let alone single fleets or individuals) could have done to save PvP. That responsibility always lied in the hands of the games developer.
Imagine PvP as a patient with terminal cancer. Only the doctor (which would be Cryptic) by the means of surgery and chemo can save PvP. But treatment never happened. We as players never had the means to save PvP; what we could do was to give the patient vitamin shots, painkillers, and change pillows.
Bootcamp and similiar initiatives did bolster PvP player numbers. It was like a much needed infusion of fresh blood. Without such enterprises PvP would have been in more dire straits way sooner. Actually quite a number of player driven initiatives were somewhat successful, but ultimately the community never had a chance to prevent the inevitable.
The neglect on behalf of Cryptic becomes evident if you sum up their direct contributions and compare it with the communities contributions. Let's take Bootcamp as an example. What we got as support was a couple of blog posts, a subsection in the forum, and a "blessing" to "go ahead." Into how much actual working hours does all that translate to? On teamspeak, Borticus said it would only take him three minutes to implement Bootcamp player titles, no big deal. Bless him for that. Who knows, he maybe even did it in his unpaid free time. But it still was only three minutes of work.
Now compare that to time invested by players. Hilbert Blog, Hilbert Leaderboard, FES keybind app, various combatlog readers, tournaments, bootcamps etc.
Comments
Campaign for a PvP only server like red shirt so you can get the mechanics balanced
no one in there right mind will Q up for pvp more than a few times as it is and as it has been
Then you got to campaign for it to more resemble ...you know how starships fought in the films and shows and not like some fighter game with wizards in funny hats shooing magic spells at you
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I agree with that Hank, I said some of what I said because I wanted to make sure everyone understood correctly.
I will admit, as a personal thing...part of me secretly hopes for a T6 Excelsior with a Pilot seat...purely so I can slot 'Fly Her Apart' on it.
How do we get them? We lie.
How do we keep them? We take pet goldfish and gerbils hostage.
The problem is, and I hate to be the naysayer here, is that STO PvP has been losing players ever since I started to PvP, back in S2.
There is really nothing short of a massive undertaking to reverse this trend. Massive meaning lots of time devoted by players to setup a system that works to circumvent Cryptic's TRIBBLE, then promoting it to the PvE'ers in hopes of finding some that have a competitive spirit needed to learn and stick with PvP.
Don't forget Cryptic won't stay silent for long: they will come out with other TRIBBLE that will needed to be circumvented.
I would say that, barring an exceptional individual setting this up, this is not a possibility.
What kind of person would you want to inflict the PvP in this game on? Is that the kind of person that you'd actually want to interact with in any fashion?
I don't think any absolution could be given for recommending this game for PvP and it's a ticket straight to the lowest depths of Hell...
"come here, we got awesome virus-candysticks.... and... and... big glasses with full off what u can think of to get u virtually that stoned that u'll never get off that couch again mwahahaha"...
don't ask me, i know that post makes no sense lol... fits the gameprogression perfectly i'd say
on a serious note:
imo a (big?) part of driving players away who found their way into sto-pvp before always has been the ever changing meta and the revamps for several systems, without regard/player-friendly-compensation referring on the systems that had been in place before (look r&d).
the game changes sometimes so fast by revamps, new introductions or single items (everything mostly connected to a grind) that's already a pain to some more experienced players.
but for newbies who are just dipping in, learning some and then, the latest with the next update, realizing that most of what they've learned just became (partly) obsolete such way doesn't seem attractive, does it?
when i compare this and reversively relate the question to shooters, i think one fact that makes them attractive, at least to me, is that almost nothing about fundamental basics really ever change there.
a gun, an enemy, pewpewpew. new maps, attachments, vehicles and whatsoever, of course. but mostly the differencies between single items are slightly in comparison to what we got here.
at least that's one of the things i for myself really enjoy about shooters. playin bf4 is kind of the same thrilling experience than playing operation flashpoint cold war crisis online years ago.
and somehow it doesn't get dull
I remember leveling my Fed Ferengi Engineer named Token enough so I could unlock KDF. I remember the PvE queues being dead for KDF, no patrols...just Empire Defense and Pi Canis to try to fill the big gaps between missions. And in that process, finding just how enjoyable sub 50 PvP could be.
I remember leveling an actual Fed toon, just to see the other side the whole way through. Wham, bam, done...with the PvE queues and patrols, could take a Fed 1-50 faster than a KDF 20-50.
I remember buying my first pair of additional character slots, trying to fast level a KDF and to slow level a Fed. I remember all the whining Feds did, and not really wanting to be associated with them. I remember the sheer amount of douchebaggery that some KDF would do at 50 at not wanting to be associated with them.
I enjoyed doing the KDF thing 20-49, but I wanted to /bitchslap the KDF at 50.
Things changed some, and I just wanted to /bitchslap the Feds for all the whining even at 50.
Then we get into S7...and...sub-50 had already started to die. Game was already on the blink 'n yer 50 path. And well, hrmm, yeah...from S7 on things just kept getting worse and worse at 50. Hell, I think I posted at the end of 2013 that I was done with PvP...I deleted all my Feds, rerolled all my guys KDF, and went off to lala land to work on my solo fleet and just dork around.
The PvE was so mind-numbing though, and I started to hit up Ker'rat again. Then some CnH. Then some Arena. Wheeee, something more than falling asleep with my face on the spacebar. All the TRIBBLE was still there, but I didn't care...the PvE was just that bad. Should have just walked away from the game; but I kind of had fun dorking around with the mechanics stuff more and more and more.
Get into the talk leading up to Delta Rising and so forth...and...Cryptic finally hammered the last nail in the coffin of my desire to play KDF. I'd had it all planned out, all the ships I was going to upgrade, getting more toons for new ships, and the rest...and...yeah, no. I deleted everybody again and rolled a single Fed.
Sure, around that time I got involved with IC - everybody was looking at stuff, planning and plotting how to make the best out of everything...by the time Cryptic made the Command Specialization announcement, they were all gone. So I basically stopped doing the PvP thing too.
Once again, mind-numbing PvE. Once again, heading to Ker'rat. But it was different...just wasn't the same.
Outside of logging in to test something because somebody mentioned/questioned something or to look at something new Cryptic mentioned...I've been logging in for around 5-6 minutes a day since the Crystalline event started. Just long enough to do that...and I'm logged out again.
I was running my 10 Klingon Dilithium Force guys two to three times a day to feed my Fed Klingon...then that became one to two times a day...which became once every couple of days...which became once a week if that...which became I can't even remember the last time I bothered doing that. Hell, I had even deleted one of them to reroll a proper KDF guy to play; but as I was sitting there in the character creator...I just /facepalmed at just wtf I was doing and stopped. Though I'm still thinking about rolling a KDF toon for Delta Recruits, deleting the Fed, and just playing this as an extremely casual once in a blue moon solo player game...since well, that's basically what Cryptic has made it.
I remember when the girlfriend's son was looking for a new game to play, and she said maybe I should talk to him about playing this game. And well, no, I just couldn't do it. What the Hell did the kid ever do to me that I'd recommend this game to him....
Then don't do anymore missions, don't do anything with the character but PvP. PvP rewards are TRIBBLE so you won't level your toon anywhere fast.
And if you want alts it will take you 2 days (if you're slow) to get it ready.
why is lowbie PVP fun and end-game PVP not fun?
lack of balance, pay to win, spamming = not fun
if there's no support company-side and no regard in terms of things like balance, items tested and altered by the community before release, nothing player-driven can survive in the long run imo.
like someone mentioned, it all has been there... even to the point where drkfrontiers set up a virtual territory-control system that would have been awesome with thousands of players (one can dream).
but every support we may once had vanished over the time, so this or that referring single attempts got altered and screwed it all up.
how can one keep something stable that changes its conditions every six months?
how to fix sto pvp in whole?
my answer: cryptic would have to change their whole attitude/policy regarding pvp!
the synergies while balancing the game around pvp, even the pve environment, would solve a lot of the games' problems imho (things like smarting-up ai, scaling damage and npc-ships hps' in relation to playerships and so on).
ok... all this now even to me sounds more like the babbling of someone who just decided to drink the whole cellar empty in a single sip lol. not because of the content, but because of the unlikeliness to see such happen
That just gets into smurfing/twinking/all the other names it's been given in various games though, no? It's a trip too, cause that would even fit in with one game's level 19 twinks from back in the day, lol.
You basically just end up with the most massively overpowered characters at that level.
You're going to have...
Tac w/ APA & FoMM
Eng w/ RSF & EPS
Sci w/ Scan & SNB
Feds will have: Cruiser Refit, Escort Refit, Science Vessel Refit
Roms will have: Dhael
KDF will have: Qaw'Dun, Somraw, K'Tanco
You'll have the folks that crafted their VR2 gear, did it over and over until they got UR3 gear, and did it over and over until they got G4 gear.
You'll have folks that can use cross-faction consoles from Lock Boxes while the original faction can't use them.
There won't be any Starship Traits nor Reputation Traits, but there will still be Lock Box Traits. Hell, folks could even manage R&D Traits.
Roms will still have their SRO/Subs/Infils. KDF will still have their Pirates. Both KDF/Feds could use the Embassy SROs.
With the way heals scale off of ship tier...with the damage potential being done...it would be little more than a TPS fragfest.
And well, if folks wanted that, they've probably gone and found a game built around providing that instead of having to fudge it themselves.
Another illusion shattered
OK, I give up. STO PvP is beyond redemption.
Heh, it would just get into any of the endeavors where some folks have had an idea that could work...if folks agreed to work it...but folks like their goodies too much.
All the years of folks complaining that X was OP, there were always the folks using X telling the other folks to shut up. Moar dakka!
Folks could probably get it working up to 49 if they agreed to it...agreed to exclude certain things. But keeping it low, like that T2 there would make it more accessible...somebody ended up leveling out of the range, wouldn't be too hard to make another toon there.
Would just be a case of folks agreeing not to push the limits of what was possible.
Imagine PvP as a patient with terminal cancer. Only the doctor (which would be Cryptic) by the means of surgery and chemo can save PvP. But treatment never happened. We as players never had the means to save PvP; what we could do was to give the patient vitamin shots, painkillers, and change pillows.
Bootcamp and similiar initiatives did bolster PvP player numbers. It was like a much needed infusion of fresh blood. Without such enterprises PvP would have been in more dire straits way sooner. Actually quite a number of player driven initiatives were somewhat successful, but ultimately the community never had a chance to prevent the inevitable.
The neglect on behalf of Cryptic becomes evident if you sum up their direct contributions and compare it with the communities contributions. Let's take Bootcamp as an example. What we got as support was a couple of blog posts, a subsection in the forum, and a "blessing" to "go ahead." Into how much actual working hours does all that translate to? On teamspeak, Borticus said it would only take him three minutes to implement Bootcamp player titles, no big deal. Bless him for that. Who knows, he maybe even did it in his unpaid free time. But it still was only three minutes of work.
Now compare that to time invested by players. Hilbert Blog, Hilbert Leaderboard, FES keybind app, various combatlog readers, tournaments, bootcamps etc.
http://i.imgur.com/o3dusAq.gif
http://i.imgur.com/3H7L9ZF.png
http://i.imgur.com/KscfLHc.gif
tresh.
The Cool mom who always bakes you cookies.
To this..
May look hot, but takes all your money and gives little in return.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku