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Why is PvP dead?
patrickngo
Member Posts: 9,963 Arc User
Because people aren't playing.
Why aren't people playing?
because their friends told them PvP is dead.
It's kind of a recusive loop-yes, the Endgame is filled with half-finished and unfinished abilities, Yes, they ended the fEd/klingon war so they could ignore sixteen percent of the over-all player base and around 25% to 30% of the PvP playerbase (well, ignore them more than they were before).
I think of it this way: in the last year, D'Angelo and Geko, working together, scored 15-0 against the PvP Community and the KDF community-with the help of PvP'ers and KDF'ers.
It may be time to stop letting those two call the tune, hey?
we have 3 space maps and 2 ground maps, and two space open zones and one ground open zone.
and a problem. the problem is power-creep where nobody's working on the workarounds to beat it without relying on it.
we used to have this-there was a time when somebody would show up with a ship-loaded full of uni consoles and we'd spank 'em like a naughty child.
what happened to that attitude? There used to be a whole HOST of top-tier PvP fleets-who didn't rely on top-tier gear, but rather on skill and cleverness, to win.
I recall there used to be this organized effort called "PvP Bootcamp", taught people how to build, how to fly, how to fight.
I'm no good at it. I admit being no good, but there are, or rather maybe WERE players that could do it.
Like with the effort I ended up starting with the KDF side, I think there's a need for that in PvP land-an active effort to recruit new players, get them hooked early in the leveling process, teach them the teamwork and the workarounds, and build up numbers. As long as "PvP is Dead" is the refrain, it will be.
and you'll have a continuously smaller and smaller circle of people to fight.
Just something to think about...
Why aren't people playing?
because their friends told them PvP is dead.
It's kind of a recusive loop-yes, the Endgame is filled with half-finished and unfinished abilities, Yes, they ended the fEd/klingon war so they could ignore sixteen percent of the over-all player base and around 25% to 30% of the PvP playerbase (well, ignore them more than they were before).
I think of it this way: in the last year, D'Angelo and Geko, working together, scored 15-0 against the PvP Community and the KDF community-with the help of PvP'ers and KDF'ers.
It may be time to stop letting those two call the tune, hey?
we have 3 space maps and 2 ground maps, and two space open zones and one ground open zone.
and a problem. the problem is power-creep where nobody's working on the workarounds to beat it without relying on it.
we used to have this-there was a time when somebody would show up with a ship-loaded full of uni consoles and we'd spank 'em like a naughty child.
what happened to that attitude? There used to be a whole HOST of top-tier PvP fleets-who didn't rely on top-tier gear, but rather on skill and cleverness, to win.
I recall there used to be this organized effort called "PvP Bootcamp", taught people how to build, how to fly, how to fight.
I'm no good at it. I admit being no good, but there are, or rather maybe WERE players that could do it.
Like with the effort I ended up starting with the KDF side, I think there's a need for that in PvP land-an active effort to recruit new players, get them hooked early in the leveling process, teach them the teamwork and the workarounds, and build up numbers. As long as "PvP is Dead" is the refrain, it will be.
and you'll have a continuously smaller and smaller circle of people to fight.
Just something to think about...
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Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments
Because devs are incompetent.
no, there is no other correct reason for it being dead other then its utterly ruined beyond saving.
even if you shell out the exorbitant amounts of dil and cash on upgrades and the latest power creep and ships, and grind out all the specialization, you are still left with PVP that has no redeeming value, and is the true personification of race to the bottom. were whoever shoots first ether wins, or kills themselves with their own first fireing cycle. thats pvp now. there's no healers, no debuffers, nothing subtle like force multipliers or pressure. there's just particles madness, vapers and surgical strike, thats it.
When i play any game i want to have some fun, but not another daily work.
Also sto dont have pvp content, like most of the online games have: no open pvp, no fleet/individual leaderboards, no territory control, no official tournaments... Im following pvp forums for 3 years and the most shocking is the ignorance devs show towards players.
We weren't against a premade. We had teamwork, some experience and a balanced team on our side. They had T6 SS speed escorts.
We got massacred 14 to 1.
Why is PvP dead? The new meta sucks.
Until then its a total waste of time
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The point where you can take a newby, show him/her the ropes while both have fun pewing are over, it is as simple as that. We have maintained restricted channels, private matches, run community events, tournies, bootcamp, adopted rules, you name it.
Cryptic killed it, our feedback was loud and clear all the way to the end.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
i reckon that realistically, given the state of the current meta, at minimum pvp needs to ignore all traits (including ship and rep). the trait disparity alone keeps f2p and kdf players on the sidelines.
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Dude this game is done for, get your facts right. It's outdated in graphics, badly, too grindy, not funny anymore, not Trek enough anymore, endgame content is too easy, too pricey, no PvP, AI is stupid, too much grind, laggy, badly written code, did I say too grindy?
I have airlocked it, moved on to Driveclub which is just so much better: graphics are the absolute best currently available, balanced multiplayer, fun, social functions deeply integrated, the content they create is stunning.
Why should I play STO? why? Give me one good reason to open it again. Fleet's gone, friends are gone, everything is gone. Why should I play this... Software? I can't even call it a game anymore.
IMO the OP doesn't want to (or can't) fork out money to buy better games, aka anything else.
And let's be honest, the players they are attracting now hear PvP and go running for their mothers. Noooo! I might explode and have to respawn! Not like this is Elite Dangerous...lol.
Those conditions for a solid player like me are intolerable, so I don't even try to survive it there.
"I don't want to see us selling traits thats why there is no way to change traits" - Geko in podcast before traits were in lockboxes and on ships.I mean 900 lobies for 1 trait ....most expensive npcs ever.
Thats one of his stunts.
Just because there is no true star trek game out there doesnt mean Im stupid to be scammed here .
I remember the tutorial telling me to go to Ker'rat, where my dinky Heavy Cruiser got obliterated by Klingons appearing out of nowhere. At which point I said "**** this, I'm out."
The only reason there were two populations with which to PvP is because Star Trek is predominantly focused on Starfleet, so the small fraction of Fed players dumb enough to be sitting ducks for cloaked ships was enough to match the KDF PvPers. Who were of course very vocal about keeping Cloaks out of the hands of the Fed, so they could continue to play Hunter vs Hunted.
This post sums it up.
We tried everything we could... it got kicked off with Opvp and then running leagues and running Tournys. There was a time where yes every patch there would be Fed and KDF meeting in Kerrat long before privates to test new stuffs and everyone was more then friendly.
Then after ignoring us for a year or two we had to start doing Gentleman rules tournys and fights... because Cryptic wasn't capable of providing a balanced game. Most of us stuck with it and made rules cause we always said that will get fixed at some point.
Then that got to a point where having 2001 rules got to be stupid... and do you blame the community when setting up tournys ect devolved into a fight over rules all the time. If a pro sports league (Hockey basketball whatever) was to rip up there rule book, and say every time 2 teams meet its up to them to make the rules for that game. How long do you think before that got toxic.
Then there was the boot camp, we did hand balanced pug style matches with the TD channel....
We have even had Hilbert step up and CREATE a Leader Board and advanced auto matching tools.
Other devs... support there communities, and I'm not just talking about providing a playable game. THEY run tournys, THEY setup leagues, THEY provide boards... Some of them even go so far as to support guys like Hilbert providing them tools to expand on the game. Cryptic does none of that... if PvP is dead (and yes it is) its not the people that have been trying hard for 5 years to make it something great. The fault is 5+ years of development that amounts to 1% of the work Cryptic puts into one, one week Event map.
We can see you never PvPed often. Fact is outside of Kerrat in actual Arena PvP KDF was always at a massive disadvantage. (almost always... after S1.2 or so anyway)
I would not say a massive difference. A lot of KDF were skilled players and that made the difference vs. Fed pugs (when skill was important in PvP).
I have fond memories of fights against KDF teams.
I think that's a textbook irrelevant ad-hominem attack. Nice.
@patrickngo; Grind aside, I personally found that the pace of PVP had become untenable. Some of my best STO gaming moments came with BoP "wolfpacks" in Kerrat but in my last few PVPs (early 2014) I simply couldn't keep track of the ships, pets and general speed of the game. My last halfway-decent showing, damningly, came from running a FAW Bortas'qu which spent the game suppressing a trio of enemy carriers.
The high end of the game has just plain got faster and busier, to the point that it's not fun any more. And that was even pre-DR and the epic grinds.
To go back to my tabletop wargaming days; you used to have fun games down your local club, and national tournaments. At the latter you expected everything to be cut-throat, but frankly most of the fun was to be had in the former. STO has - for whatever reason - lost that "amateur" community in PVP which allowed people to play without going through a months-long "bootcamp".
I think the "gentleman's rules" PVP groups have probably got the right idea; don't try to fix the system, focus on matching comparable players. Or at least, if one side does have a massive advantage in gear / experience / knowledge - don't be an TRIBBLE$ bragging about it.
Just 1 simple word... Geko
Geko's "crime" appears to be making STO's PVP into EVE's.
It interests me that open-PVP games like Elite and EVE seem to be better regarded than STO... despite the fact that both those games appear to not bother with anything resembling balance and cheerfully allow very well equipped players to simply vape anyone weaker who is unfortunate enough to cross their sights.
Or as a very good friend described his first Elite player kill... "he couldn't get through my shields. I almost felt sorry for him".
STO, by contrast, spent the first 3 years of its life with a (relatively) balanced PVP system where skill and teamwork, rather than pure quality of gear, were pretty critical. But maintaining that would have required a lot of design effort and impeded selling new gear / content, so - without fanfare - STO has quietly moved to simply letting PVPers run riot. As a result only a small base is left.
You clearly never played STO nor eve or elite.
IMO, any kind of secondary math for PVP won't fix what's broken, and will in fact just make things worse. Part of the problem space is the complexity (math, what stacks, what combines with what), and something like PVP-only weighting just makes the complexity worse. More bugs are likely to appear. Barrier to entry for noobies becomes higher. A simple and transparent combat model is what's needed.
#1 Lack of Teamwork in PUGs
Seemed like everytime I played it was every man for himself while I was trying to help out the team. When the result of that is getting vaporized over and over, it gets un-fun really fast.
#2 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
If I wasn't getting vaporized through lack of teamwork, there was a lot of unsportsmanlike conduct to discourage me from having fun. Spawn-camping, etc.
Back then there weren't many people on the Fed side who'd have the attitude: "Hey, you're dying a lot. Let me help you figure out what you're doing wrong."
I appreciated the Community's efforts around the PvP Bootcamp... at least people were trying. But I never plugged into that, which I admit is my own fault. It didn't help I was already soured on PvP.
I don't mind getting slagged. Some of my best gaming times were playing Doom with my friends and getting slagged over and over. But it was a very different experience, and I was able to get a few kills in edgewise to keep me from getting too frustrated.
What would draw me into PvP besides Teamwork and Sportsmanship?
#1 Customizable Arenas/Matches
One of the things I liked about CoH PvP was the ability to fine-tune the matches to create variety. With STO, I would take that even further, like the ability to add hazards, collision damage, gravitational anomalies, level restrictions, etc.
#2 Monster Play
Why shouldn't I be able to play as a Tal Shiar agent or a Borg Cube in a PvP match to make things interesting? They wouldn't need to be full PvE factions. I might be interested in throwing down in a Jem'Hadar vs Breen fracas, if it were an option.
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You are correct, I have never played EVE or ELITE, although I have friends that play the latter. It's just that from what I can tell, they don't bother with any sort of "balance" between players and / or ships. Rather, the player who has ground / traded their way to afford a much better ship and weapon set will have a massive advantage - which may or may not be mitigable with skill.
if I am correct, this is fundamentally different from STO in its earlier years, where the "best possible" gear was relatively easy to obtain via crafting and a couple of STFs, but much closer to where STO is now.
So I ask again; what do Elite and EVE do to balance PVP that STO does not?
I recognize that a lot of people don't like PvP for the two reasons you list. Personally I don't like them either. The thing is in my case, I took steps to remove these elements from my PvP. First, I never went to Kerrat. The few time I was there it was always one sided and no teamwork. I always stayed in the Arena queues, and I always queued up with at least one friend or a fleet mate. That removed the 'lack of teamwork' element.
As for unsportsmanlike conduct, one the example you list is the fact that no one helped you. I don't like that kind of thinking because instead of pro actively searching for help, you expected people to help you. Again, searching for and talking to PvP'ers or PvP fleets would have solved that problem.
In short what you list as the reasons PvP are very personal for you, but don't really reflect the reality that PvP was never supported by the devs and lack of balancing of new ships and abilities from, again, the devs.
TL;DR: the community is not at fault. The development planning by Cryptic and hostility from the devs are a lot more responsible for the death of PvP.