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Why is PvP dead?

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  • edited March 2015
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  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited March 2015
    The real value of a battlevalue system is that most any player can join and get a good fight , They feel they were part of some epic battle , They had a chance to win , We almost got that guy!~

    The veteran can puff his chest out and say wow I didn't think I could do that

    If it takes 10 new players to drop 1 veteran in a good long fight then you have 11 happy players

    insta kill pug stomping is the PvP destroyer proved over and over in this game and any other game

    Right now veterans feel what pug stomping feels like from surgical strike builds
    Right now veterans feel what pug stomping feels like from surgical strike builds
    Right now veterans feel what pug stomping feels like from surgical strike builds
    Right now veterans feel what pug stomping feels like from surgical strike builds

    It doesn't feel good , There not playing , Not good getting stomped without a chance to fight back is it ?

    The basic design of any game system should do its best to limit and stop such things from happening to the best of their ability

    Or

    You get a PvP system just like what we have in STO

    Its not fun to 95% of the people who try it

    So they don't play it

    Rewards has its place and you have the right idea about how they should be handed out

    But we got to have a system to narrowe the gap on Expert players and end game gear and new players with little experience and Meh gear starting out

    I have never saw anything but a BV system that can do that/ Quality verses Quanity works pretty darn good
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
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  • freenos85freenos85 Member Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    beameddown wrote: »
    EDIT: [,..] he even goes a step further and has all his weapons on manual fire tied to space bar [...]

    Isn't that a keybind though? Binding a row to a single key and putting his weapons there (which ingame are handled as any other ability, albeit with a shorter GCD) seems like a keabind to me.
    This auto-do-this TRIBBLE goes more into the realms of hacks. Monitoring a certains pixel on the screen and see if it changes colour (to indicate if a teammate needs healing for example), then activate a keybind, or some set of instructions.

    The most simple keybind i use(d), even in pug matches was always "/bind <key> assist <player name>", which helped a lot.

    And now back to topic. Why is PvP dead again? :P
  • illoominartiilloominarti Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited March 2015
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  • dova25dova25 Member Posts: 475
    edited March 2015
    I don't think a battle value system can be done in STO PVP.

    If we take Reciprocity :How can a faction compensate to a trait that gives you a free space doff space ?
    Anybody playing FED with Reciprocity slotted should play only with Feds if such a battle value system pairing would be implemented.

    I personally don't think that people who implemented things like Viral torpedo or Reciprocity would implement a fair battle value system pairing.


    Another aspect is that complexity of STO increases and it is intentionally increased with every season (weapon crafting for example) ,specialization trees that change PVP completely with every new one added. How can somebody make a battle value system in such conditions ?
    "There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
    I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
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  • freenos85freenos85 Member Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    beameddown wrote: »
    doing that, while keeping his own boat alive, sending heals to teammates, tracking buff rotations, memorizing most likley buff loadouts on multiple targets, and calling targets- suffice to say, i got mad respect for the real skill (alot of memorization, knowledge of the game, hand eye cordination, tactical awareness, and timing)

    again, all of that could be made easy by doing keybinds, have multiple buffs tied to a single key stroke, or mouse button, etc

    Again, i think you overestimate what keybinds can actually do. It doesn't mean having everything tied to the spacebar. It doesn't mean having tied all buff to a specific key. As an escort pilot you'd be a fool to do that, because as you already did point out it would lead to a disruption of your firiing cycle. From your description edalgo basically pushes himself into a niche build by having spacebar fire all weapons/energy weapons for him, which would be an all cannon escort ... if that is really the only kind of flying style that he's using.

    A keybind could be a key to keep your Ept cycle going and not much more. There's also a bind to cancel and reactivate autofire, so that you can time your volleys and circumvent firing other weapons (dual beam bank for a timed overload).

    Much more then that and you can be read like a book and a timed attack between cycles leaves you vulnerable.

    Your post comes accross as some sort of elevation of your own skill for denying yourself the (helpfull yet not game deciding) tool provided by the game. Maybe next time don't start with such a sentence:
    beameddown wrote: »
    I always saw keybinds as a crutch and I dont value the skill of the player that relied on them to win pvp matches
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  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited March 2015
    beameddown wrote: »
    but I do personally see them as a crutch

    look, its just my opinion, if you have a keybind that distributes shields for you, so you dont have to click a specific shield facing on the ship display, OR click the middle to distribute them, OR have the "distribute shields" icon in your tray that you physically move your mouse over and click yourself,

    isnt having a "key" on your keyboard that does THAT ACTION FOR YOU, eliminates the NEED for you to be really involved with it besides hitting "T" or hitting an extra button on your mouse, TAKE less skill?

    really, cause thats how I see it, skill
    hand-eye

    again, you can talk levels of automation that players use keybinds too, and thats still im my eyes as "lack of skill"

    the more you have the computer short cut things for you, short cut the operations of your ship, that in my eyes, is lack of skill-
    AGAIN, for the final time, I know some of you guys are really taking this to heart, your proud of what you accomplished in sto, you got your kill sheet, etc, I tip the hat to you all, I have already said multiple times, I ADVISE players to use keybinds,

    using..keybinds..makes..flying...the...ship...easier..in..pvp. FACT

    just as if we were fighting each other in mortal combat and you tied 1 attack, just one special, to a extra button- Im doing back-back-down-A-B-A to do my attack while you get to ....push one button to do the same attack

    again, I come from a different era, AND I DONT HOLD it over people, ilhansk was doing his token "my day was better, folks were more skilled, here gimmi a sec while I name drop over and over, BAH- game sucks now" song and dance he does everytime he posts on the forums,

    I spent a couple posts, keeping it clean, being honest, just seeing if I could get him to admit that fresh players can be very skilled (as in to have my own pompous jollies at a dino player saying in another post from back before, that all the best, skilled players "left the game", its petty, I know, I didnt make a big stink about it, it was for me and me alone to enjoy- but cats out of the bag now right?)-
    ANYWAYS..
    after the giant name drop on a pile of parcers I figured ENOUGH, with his own ego stroking, lets poke him where it always hurts
    -discredit his skill

    they hate that by the way,
    so throw out a comment, that I think (again, I really do) that using keybinds are a crutch, would be enough to give him a EQUAL jab back, I know, I know, petty, really really petty

    but hey, last night, was drinking, talking with some buddies, figured- why not:)
    anyways, im done hyjacking the thread;P, sorry all-

    Have you even stopped to consider that some might simply fly differently? Personally, I preferred to fly with the mouse rather than the keyboard. I used 1-0, alt 1-0 and ctrl 1-0 for each ability. It was 1 or 2 buttons activates 1 ability and I didn't use macros to activate them autonomously. Do you see that as playing less skillfully simply because I'm a lefty and it was easier to learn to mouse fly than to rebind my entire keyboard? WASD isn't god and its use doesn't determine your skill.
    LOLSTO
  • illoominartiilloominarti Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    freenos85 wrote: »
    Isn't that a keybind though? Binding a row to a single key and putting his weapons there (which ingame are handled as any other ability, albeit with a shorter GCD) seems like a keabind to me.
    This auto-do-this TRIBBLE goes more into the realms of hacks. Monitoring a certains pixel on the screen and see if it changes colour (to indicate if a teammate needs healing for example), then activate a keybind, or some set of instructions.

    The most simple keybind i use(d), even in pug matches was always "/bind <key> assist <player name>", which helped a lot.

    And now back to topic. Why is PvP dead again? :P

    It's not just PvP that is dead, more like the whole game. No comeback point, there's such a big amount of stuff that's literally impossible to balance, it's something that should have been implemented since the very beginning. They keep releasing things that are one more broken than the other, each time improving the hell out of a ship category. Xindi did that, Manasa made things worse and so on. There's no drawbacks for the perks for 80% of the content they release, hence why all of the game sucks now.

    For example in Driveclub I can compare the Koenigsegg One:1 and the McLaren P1. The One:1 is from an expansion pack, you pay for it. It has better handling, top speed and acceleration, but due to the RWD traction there's lot of wheelspin when going full throttle. The P1 does not do that, can do potentially faster cornering, the One:1 will force you to balance the constant lateral drifting. On the other side, the P1, if it ends in a drift, will lose most of the momentum or go out of control. So yeah, it's faster granted that you don't have to do tight turns, otherwise the P1 has the upper hand. You always pay something in DC, reason why Multiplayer is damned healthy, fun, challenging. In STO there's no such thing anymore, PvE is stupid while in Driveclub the AI is actually smart, endgame content in an MMO is PvP, but the constant powercreep makes only a few repetitive builds usable. PvP is not dead.

    Game is dead. Gone. Done for. Ended. Over.

    @beameddown yeah yeah yeah, but my avatar was sexier than yours. Ding ding ding...
  • bwemobwemo Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    beameddown wrote: »
    War and Peace, Volume 3

    It's hard to tell if you're being serious right now. Every single competitive game on the planet has a macro system. Every one. Why? Because they ease certain things during game mechanics. Clicking, in any mmo, has always been looked at as a "bad idea". Simple things like Keybinds alone will earn you more respect than saying "I'm a clicker." Matter of fact, most serious pvp games if people find out you are a clicker, they'll tell you to learn to play.

    In terms of complicated macros, this game literally supports things that other games wouldn't even dare. The text file system I've seen in one other game my whole life, and it required an external program to even be possible. 99.9% of games I play, I set up certain automated aspects to my g keys. Some games you can't do this at all. SWTOR is a good example. The UI is so meh that attempting to automate a rotation ends in disaster every time. STO has things like eptx cycles, that you can just automate and forget about, assuming you know how to set up the delays to not interfere with other skill activations, a reason i think people look down on the whole "spacebar spam" concept. It can slow down activation of other powers if done wrong, and clicking would seemingly become faster. If you're holding back on an eptx in team play cuz Superman proc....well....you have 4 friends that can clear things off you, and thats the point of team play.

    Either way, you should come to terms with any game you play online will have people using macros, and using them doesn't automatically make you better than them or allow you to say they have no skill. Yes there will be people that adamantly stand by the I'm going to click every skill and not keybind or macro anything. Here are some great examples of how far clicking and not learning keybinding/macroing can take you in an actual competitive game.
  • wildweasalwildweasal Member Posts: 1,053 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It's not just PvP that is dead, more like the whole game. No comeback point, there's such a big amount of stuff that's literally impossible to balance, it's something that should have been implemented since the very beginning. They keep releasing things that are one more broken than the other, each time improving the hell out of a ship category. Xindi did that, Manasa made things worse and so on. There's no drawbacks for the perks for 80% of the content they release, hence why all of the game sucks now.

    For example in Driveclub I can compare the Koenigsegg One:1 and the McLaren P1. The One:1 is from an expansion pack, you pay for it. It has better handling, top speed and acceleration, but due to the RWD traction there's lot of wheelspin when going full throttle. The P1 does not do that, can do potentially faster cornering, the One:1 will force you to balance the constant lateral drifting. On the other side, the P1, if it ends in a drift, will lose most of the momentum or go out of control. So yeah, it's faster granted that you don't have to do tight turns, otherwise the P1 has the upper hand. You always pay something in DC, reason why Multiplayer is damned healthy, fun, challenging. In STO there's no such thing anymore, PvE is stupid while in Driveclub the AI is actually smart, endgame content in an MMO is PvP, but the constant powercreep makes only a few repetitive builds usable. PvP is not dead.

    Game is dead. Gone. Done for. Ended. Over.

    @beameddown yeah yeah yeah, but my avatar was sexier than yours. Ding ding ding...


    FFS STFU with your whining already they are trying to address certain issues and are taking baby steps at fixing them, which is somthing sicne they ignored us for 5 plus years honestly, at this point Lester gonna grab the bull by the horns and keep pushing the agenda and never surrender all you are doing is just piling on... Are being ignored for five years by them is infuriating so is five years of hearing people ***** nag Moan and complain.. After a while I think some of us in here just complain just to see our complaints on paper I don't think it would matter if they totally separated PVP from the game right now and started from scratch from the ground up because some just love to complain so much it wouldn't stop it like a mob mentality.. So here is the obvious question you say game is dead. Gone. Done for. Ended. Over. Then one has to say why are you still here? FFS 2 days without all the %$%$%^%in bytching ...christ if i want to hear this much bytchn i would have stayed married
    3ondby_zpsikszslyx.jpg
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  • shalloween3099shalloween3099 Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    wildweasal wrote: »
    FFS STFU with your whining already they are trying to address certain issues and are taking baby steps at fixing them, which is somthing sicne they ignored us for 5 plus years honestly, at this point Lester gonna grab the bull by the horns and keep pushing the agenda and never surrender all you are doing is just piling on... Are being ignored for five years by them is infuriating so is five years of hearing people ***** nag Moan and complain.. After a while I think some of us in here just complain just to see our complaints on paper I don't think it would matter if they totally separated PVP from the game right now and started from scratch from the ground up because some just love to complain so much it wouldn't stop it like a mob mentality.. So here is the obvious question you say game is dead. Gone. Done for. Ended. Over. Then one has to say why are you still here? FFS 2 days without all the %$%$%^%in bytching ...christ if i want to hear this much bytchn i would have stayed married

    I think it's safe to say she left you :P
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    When I was younger, memory was better - had more manual dexterity, I'd mouse move and use keybinds. As I got older, started forgetting what was where - started fatfingering things all over the place, I moved almost exclusively to clicking things. Can't forget where they are when they're right there for me to see and can't fatfinger them...cause, subnuking a pet or a torp the first time or two might be funny...but it starts to get embarrassing. I'd have never dreamed of calling somebody that uses keybinds as they're set up in this game as being less skilled. Cause I kind of wish I still had the skill to do that instead of flying around in circles while still trying to figure out these damned new icons so I can click the damn things...

    Now if they were using third party software to run macros or maybe were using a programmable keyboard or mouse that could run macros (as opposed to just binding any additional keys/buttons to standard keybinds)...well...that's a EULA violation and they should know better.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    key binds are a necessity cause of the activation delay alone, and only 2 abilities can be activating at once. you try to just click and face endless frustration with skills not activating when you need them too, because of this. plus, it divides your attention, the mouse is better used to move the camera and target things. your are at a huge disadvantage without macros, and no not just a space bar bind, i used 5 or 6.
  • bobs1111bobs1111 Member Posts: 471 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Now if they were using third party software to run macros or maybe were using a programmable keyboard or mouse that could run macros (as opposed to just binding any additional keys/buttons to standard keybinds)...well...that's a EULA violation and they should know better.

    No offense to you here at all Virus. It makes me laugh when people assume the EULA means you can't use a Gaming mouse or Keyboard.

    By all means go through this http://www.arcgames.com/en/about/terms and point out where it states Buying something like a Razor Naga ect is in anyway something that isn't allowed.

    Again no offense Virus... but there simply isn't anything in the EULA that says you can't use mouse or keyboard software... and frankly there isn't even anything in there about using marco programs.

    What it says is you can't use any programs to MODIFY the game/net code to gain advantage. It doesn't say you can't have a program input a standard key press for you... because you 100% can. It is not against the EULA in anyway.

    Why do we care about any of this anyway really....
    "l. using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players;"

    When Cryptic makes in pretty much impossible for anyone that played this game for more then 20 min to not be in violation of this one right here. You all deserve to be banned. Cause this game is one big Design flaw. lmao
  • usshannibalusshannibal Member Posts: 379 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    When I was younger, memory was better - had more manual dexterity, I'd mouse move and use keybinds. As I got older, started forgetting what was where - started fatfingering things all over the place, I moved almost exclusively to clicking things. Can't forget where they are when they're right there for me to see and can't fatfinger them...cause, subnuking a pet or a torp the first time or two might be funny...but it starts to get embarrassing. I'd have never dreamed of calling somebody that uses keybinds as they're set up in this game as being less skilled. Cause I kind of wish I still had the skill to do that instead of flying around in circles while still trying to figure out these damned new icons so I can click the damn things...

    Now if they were using third party software to run macros or maybe were using a programmable keyboard or mouse that could run macros (as opposed to just binding any additional keys/buttons to standard keybinds)...well...that's a EULA violation and they should know better.

    I guess it is the usual aging process that is going to happen to everyone of us here in future, it's nothing to worry about or to get embarassed :) Performance in manual dexterity and memory capacity decreases over decades. In your case however I couldn't realize such a scenario yet. lol

    Based on what i have seen from your posting history over the years the complexity and versatility of your analyses, argumentations and calculations related to game mechanics have never dropped in any subject from my persepctive at least.
    You're still playing in your own league. There are only a few individuals in here who could be a patch on you but your modest nature and your outstanding and entertaining forum sigs surpassing any caricatures with respect to expressiveness and ridicule distinguish yourself additionally. :D A paradigm is your latest one which made me laugh for good :D
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    -=Hannibal - Inner Circle PvP-Department=-
    Hannibal's YouTube PvP-channel (under construction)
    More Inner Circle PvP-Action worth watching from: Hank, Mira Theng and Zimbilimbim
  • ilhanskilhansk Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    You really are a piece of work, aren't you? :P
    beameddown wrote: »
    really, cause thats how I see it, skill
    hand-eye
    [...]
    the more you have the computer short cut things for you, short cut the operations of your ship, that in my eyes, is lack of skill-

    Most bodily motion, including the motion of your hands, is being coordinated by optical cognition. And that also includes pressing keyboard buttons as a reaction to visual stimuli. Just saying.

    In Star Trek Online, reducing "skill" to mere hand-eye coordination would be inadequate. This ain't Quake or Unreal Tournament. This game is more complex than that. If it was only about hand-eye twitch reaction, then the most successful sto players would be the 13 year olds. The majority of the players regarded as succesful PvP participants are in their early twenties to mid-thirties though.

    I can only speak for TRH/IC (since these were the fleet I was in), but all good pvp players that came out of their "school", in the beginning learned the ropes by playing what you would call "manually", without advanced keybinds. Because it stimulated the sense for timing and buff reading, layed the groundwork for "combat awareness". And later, when felt to have tapped the full potential of the default keybind layout, some took the next logical step by customizing and further optimizing their keybinds. What that is supposed to have to do with lack of skill, is beyond me. Seriously, what's up with the dismissivenes?

    What you might be thinking of are perhaps the morons who are binding all their powers to the spacebar or something. But in a tough match, those guys are usually the first ones hanging on the ropes. Spacebar spammers had no place in any proper pvp fleet premade anyway.

    Oh and by the way, it's not my fault when you use term keybinds wrongly. When it comes to technicals terms like this, you need to be adequately precise, otherwise you come across unaware.
    beameddown wrote: »
    again, I come from a different era, AND I DONT HOLD it over people, ilhansk was doing his token "my day was better, folks were more skilled, here gimmi a sec while I name drop over and over, BAH- game sucks now" song

    Your imagination must be working overtime to interpret my statement in such warped ways. It was you who began to slander and blame the player community, belittling their past attempts to make things better. I was merely expressing criticism directed at Cryptic, in a very reasonable manner, that the developer is ultimately responsible for this games current state. And I bet I am not the only one who shares that opinion.

    Actually, I do not understand where your aversions for past player driven initiatives come from. Is it that you somehow feel wronged by certain people? What is really the source of your deep-seated anger?

    And I did not say "folks were more skilled". Stop making things up. Skilled players come and go. You asked me "can there be skillful players in the t6 era?" and I replied: "Of course there are skillful players in the T6 era. New talent and skill did emerge all the time and is still emerging. That won't change."
    beameddown wrote: »
    after the giant name drop on a pile of parcers I figured ENOUGH with his own ego stroking,
    [...]
    -discredit his skill

    How you can consider me praising the accomplishments of other folks (who mostly were never my fleetmates) to be ego-stroking, is beyond me. When I laud Hilbert for his contributions for the community, doesn't mean I take credit for him. :rolleyes:

    I always give credit where credit is due. Even if it means I have to give credit to a person I personally dislike and/or had serious conflicts with. Judging by your long history of statements I don't think you can claim the same.

    On the contrary, you seem to have a pathological urge to discredit other peoples skills. "Discredit his skill" That's your own words.

    What's up with that? Why do you want to discredit them anyway? Seriously, what for? Does it make you feel better or something?

    Other than praising your own fleetmates / friends, I have rarely seen you saying something positive about other players in the community.

    Most people you're dismissing aren't playing the game nor reading the forum any longer. You are exploiting their absence by talking big. I don't know man, I just find that a bit sleazy. Not sure, but I think I saw you in the queues since 2012. You had plenty time to settle any score with the people you disliked, to settle things on the battlefield. Do you harbour bitter feelings because things weren't going the way you wanted? And now when they are gone, you are claming high ground?

    Because that's how you sound like.
    Visit the Inner Circle YouTube Channel to watch some STO pew pew PVP action!

  • ilhanskilhansk Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    When I was younger, memory was better - had more manual dexterity, I'd mouse move and use keybinds. As I got older, started forgetting what was where - started fatfingering things all over the place, I moved almost exclusively to clicking things. Can't forget where they are when they're right there for me to see and can't fatfinger them...cause, subnuking a pet or a torp the first time or two might be funny...but it starts to get embarrassing. I'd have never dreamed of calling somebody that uses keybinds as they're set up in this game as being less skilled. Cause I kind of wish I still had the skill to do that instead of flying around in circles while still trying to figure out these damned new icons so I can click the damn things...

    Now if they were using third party software to run macros or maybe were using a programmable keyboard or mouse that could run macros (as opposed to just binding any additional keys/buttons to standard keybinds)...well...that's a EULA violation and they should know better.

    In your own way, you've been one of the most skillful people I've met in STO.

    And when it came to forum signatures, no one could ever hold a candle to you.

    That has to be respected. ;)
    Visit the Inner Circle YouTube Channel to watch some STO pew pew PVP action!

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  • shalloween3099shalloween3099 Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ilhansk wrote: »
    In your own way, you've been one of the most skillful people I've met in STO.

    And when it came to forum signatures, no one could ever hold a candle to you.

    That has to be respected. ;)

    LOL Number one sto forum sig praise
  • reverseandereverseande Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    LOL Number one sto forum sig praise

    hey is that you Mini? :D
  • usshannibalusshannibal Member Posts: 379 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    hey is that you Mini? :D

    It might be mini, talon or even beameddown maybe who knows. One thing is clear: It's definitely somebody who's urgently seeking for attention, acceptance and public worship inside the community with the help of alts in an extinguishing sub-forum of a mmo game being in the act of its decline ;)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    -=Hannibal - Inner Circle PvP-Department=-
    Hannibal's YouTube PvP-channel (under construction)
    More Inner Circle PvP-Action worth watching from: Hank, Mira Theng and Zimbilimbim
  • ilhanskilhansk Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    edalgo wrote: »
    I was being nostalgic the other day watching some of our premade matches

    Can you provide some links? I'd like to watch them. :)
    Visit the Inner Circle YouTube Channel to watch some STO pew pew PVP action!

This discussion has been closed.