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Reflection on elitism, exploiting and DPS Leagues

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  • hausofmartokhausofmartok Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ezriryan wrote: »
    Greetings Captains,

    since most people dont follow all the posts in other threads, this is a copy paste of Page 4 and of the ISA video thread:
    This is the non-Video related discussion that ensued, which basically always comes up when people say anything related to "DPS".
    Please keep in mind, that this started out as a response to some of the posts on that thread, so some of this sounds a little overly-aggressiv, but that is more due to it being directed at someone else who was trying to attack our standpoint. No offense intended ;D


    Its almost depressing how far off some people are.

    We never wanted that the game in general becomes overly difficult for the majority of people, we never asked for advanced (which was supposed to be the old elite) to be a 4 times increase. We asked for a new difficulty that would actually be challenging. These videos serve the purpose of showing, that the difficulty is not being increased by sliding the HP multiplier up. We, as well, never asked for the decrease in dilithium and neural processor gains from the STFs, Cryptic decided to do that on their own, and they can have all the credit for it.
    Also this is to prove the point of "leveling 17 times faster", which they call an exploit. Well, if you can find it... tell us. Because we mostly didn't even level in Tau Dewa and stil got most of our points removed. My Federation toon was 2 mins 30 secs in a Charraya patrol at level 51, does that justify taking like 20 spec points away?

    On another note, these videos may be used as a guideline, along with our guide videos where we explain how and why these builds work. But they do at no point force you to play anything like this. This is a suggestion and a practical display of how things can (!) be played, but not neccessarily have to be played. Therefore no one needs to feel vilified.


    We offered talking to.. basically everyone of the staff we could find. To little/no effect at all.
    Even though on the podcast one guy claimed he would like talking to us, trying to get into contact has thus far not worked. There have been some informal "yea we should talk" things, but as stated, nothing real ever came of it.
    So we do this to raise some more attention.
    If anyone on the Staff feels like talking, i am quite sure you know where to find us.

    Quote from page4, but since no one bothers reading it, I copy pasta'ed it for you.



    --

    The Scimitar Is a broken ship giving more dps from hidden perks ...nothing else explains its op firepower many other romulan ships are just as good but fall short in dps...I propose its a sell gimmick by cryptic.

    <- i hope thats a troll or a good display of the delusion.

    I'll leave it at that, as all the other points are just as obvious trolls.





    Personally, I have always been against the numbers behind the DPS-Channels names. But.. its the easiest way to tell apart to which part of the community you currently belong.
    The seggragation could also be called:

    DPS- Casual (Called DPS-Public)
    DPS- Half ways trying (10k)
    DPS- Decent (20k)
    DPS - Try-Hard (30k)
    Its not a random seggregation, it actually reflects your proficiency at the game mechanics, because "gear" doesnt really play a big role in this game. We also do not exclude anyone because he is flying the wrong build. I personally did 38k the other day on a particle Generator/Torpedo build.

    Every half ways good player can squeeze 10k+ out of basically every ship in the game. (Level 10 Rhode Island Sci ship for example.. So if you dont do that, you're either not applying yourself, and therefore intentionally waste everyones (including your own) time, or actually don't know whats going on.
    because behind the BS of "we will teach you".. is kinda real, if you dont want our help. Thats okay, I personally dont care how good or bad you play. As long as I don't have to play with you. It's a teamgame, if you deny your responsiblity towards the team, why should I feel in any way related to you? I am not getting paid to carry anyone through this.
    And behind the BS of farming dilithium, we actually try to beat the hardest challenges in the game (No-Win 2 men etc.)


    (btw, did a random Queue the other day on my narcine.. Did 39k, some other guy did 21k, and then we had 3 ppl splitting up a total of 5k dps between the three of them... No communication what so ever, every attempt of mine to chat was met with utter silence. But thats just a sidenote because we are all arrogant idiots.)





    Why do the guys on the Premier League not want to play with you by the way?
    Actually, lets go a little more into detail here, because thats a point that rises every now and then.
    This is a misconception. What you dont understand is, that in order to maximize dps even the good players have to make some trade-offs from survivability. So if you dont at least play halfways along these ships cant take the heat forever. We fully know and understand that. That is why we take those highly specialized builds into certain missions. We prepare and exploit teamplay, if that is too much cheating, or effort for you. I am sorry, but I dont see how I am supposed to talk about your personal preferences.
    Specializing in certain things allows you to achieve far higher results though... 2 Men no win scenario is a good example... Why can we beat it with 2 players, while most cant with 5?





    No, thats because they underperform from an objective point of view: Combatlog doesn't read out your feelings, but your contribution to the teams victory, if you win it. Sure, its not 100% accurate, there is some fake-damage. But all the effects are miniscule usually. And if that gets us killed or we have to carry him entirely through there, then yes. We are not getting paid enough to pain ourselves watching how you fail south with 3 players.






    If you do under 10k DPS in this game, you are currently not interested in dealing damage. Thats fine by me, but dont expect me to try carrying you through for free. Its not a seggregation of people I like, versus people I dont like. Its about people that apply themselves and people that dont f.ing care about gameplay, but go to the forums to explain why what they do should be valid, while there is no reflection of that in the actual gameplay.
    The arbitrariness of these numbers is so low, that if you halfways think about what u'r doing, you will find it not difficult to get into 10k.
    Its a line between players that will work things out, do some testing and get the mission done..
    versus people that will then take those results and get the mission done;
    versus people that you need to take by the hand and walk through it, but yet willing to improve;
    versus people that explain to you, why you are the real problem and they dont want your solution, even if you clearly showed that it worked.



    Let me actually quote a book:

    ,,The Scrub Mentality

    "Scrub" is not a term I made up. It sounds like kind of a harsh term, but it's the one that was already in common usage in games to describe a certain type of player, and it made more sense to me to explain that rather than to coin a new term.

    A scrub is not just a bad player. Everyone needs time to learn a game and get to a point where they know what they're doing. The scrub mentality is to be so shackled by self-imposed handicaps as to never have any hope of being truly good at a game. You can practice forever, but if you can't get over these common hangups, in a sense you've lost before you even started. You've lost before you even picked which game to play. You aren't playing to win.

    A scrub would disagree with this though. They'd say they are trying very hard. The problem is they are only trying hard within a construct of fictitious rules that prevent them from ever truly competing.

    "That's Cheap!"
    Scrubs are likely to label a wide variety of moves and tactics as "cheap." For example, performing a throw in fighting games is often called cheap. A throw is a move that grabs an opponent and damages them even while they're defending against all other kinds of attacks. Throws exist specifically to allow you to damage opponents who block and don't attack.

    As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it's meant to be there—yet scrubs construct their own set of principles that state they should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. Scrubs think of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect them indefinitely. Throwing violates the rules in their heads even though it doesn't violate any actual game rule.

    A scrub would not throw their opponent 5 times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimize your chances of winning? It's "cheap," though, throwing is cheap. And it's not just throwing, it's also a long list of somewhat arbitrary maneuvers. If you keep a scrub away from you by zoning them with projectile attacks, you'll probably be called cheap. If you do one move over and over, that's cheap. If you get a lead, then do nothing for 30 seconds so that you can win by time-out, that's cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap.

    Let's specifically consider the case where you do one move over and over. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Are they such a poor player that they can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't you be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.

    "It's Not Fun To Play That Way"
    This might be true, or it might not be, depending on the game. The scrub mentality is to make this claim for basically all games though so beware of that."

    David Sirlin, Playing to win
    http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win




    We are all proud of your carrying skills, but if you want to become a better player, you need to try out new things, specialize in certain things and compare/gauge how you are doing. If you don't do that, you'll not improve, and therefore be left behind by everyone willing to improve.

    We also dont cherry pick anything, we just offer assistance to players across the board: DPS-public is the entry level channel, and doesnt require you to jump over anything. But lets turn this around, how about you try to improve?

    We don't force anyone to play the way we do.
    (go read page 4 guys.)
    If you decide that what we do is all wrong and against you playstyle thats fine, but please realize, that are not being paid to carry you through any of this, even though we do it every now and then (random Qs for fun). You have to understand, that from a 10 to 25k perspective it looks intentional if you deal 3k dps, which a freshly unboxed ship, not equipped with any consoles or bridge officers can pull, just by allocating power to weapons and shooting.

    This game is an Arms-race by definition, timers on mission fail if you don't deal X amounts of DPS within the timelimit, sure it has been kinda low so far but the hp-scaling further enforced that point. You were taught over 4 years that being in the mission is enough to be rewarded, and they are breaking that mindset now. Sure its painful for everyone who was satisfied with how nice their ship looks. We just optimized on getting the job done. Can this all be done very slowly, in an inefficient way that you personally find satisfying? Probably, but why should we be forced to cater to the lowest denominator? Winning the STF is basically a foregone conclusion for us, we want to optimize within the completion of the STF. When we win ISA in 2 minutes 6 seconds, that gives another group a competitive reason to continue playing this game. To see if they can beat us on the time record.
    I like to compare PvE to Golf.
    On the course you fight yourself. Strive for perfection, wouldn't under par be awesome? When its done, you compare numbers.
    Getting the first kill on a difficult mission is a race. Holding the speed record on a mission is a race. Holding the damage record on a mission is a race.
    While on the course we enjoy good competition, when its done though, we sit down with the other competitors and drink coffe/earl grey depending on preference and reflect how we liked it.
    We understand that this is highly elitist and dont force anyone to participate in it, but you have to understand that the mindset of competitive gameplay has helped us really improve on all the challenges presented, to a degree, that most people don't even understand what we are doing.

    best regards
    RyanSTO

    You just reinforced every criticism about you really. The DPS channel crowd, is a bunch of elitist braggards that do nothing for this game or this community. Doing whatever DPS level you've achieved means nothing to anyone but you and your buddies and the few peeps that swing from your nuts.
    You guys are entertaining though and have provided me with many laughs as you proclaim your piloting skill and how gear and ships don't matter when in fact it's the opposite that's true. Gear and ships matter way too much in this game. News flash for you guys: skilled gamers don't play Star Trek Online. There off playing better more balanced games and most likely PvP at that.
    There is little to no skill needed to do well at any PvE content in this game. An understanding of game mechanics is not skill. Reading tool tips and min-maxing for DPS is not skill
    Captain Geko specifically said once in a pod-cast, that these items and mechanics are there for Min-Maxers to feel like special snowflakes when they put 2+2 together.
    Fact is, there is a lot of us that don't do high DPS because frankly we don't care to. That's not what this game is about for us and we don't care if you don't want to team with us or not and since you can't team kick people in this game then you can all stick to your little channels.

    It's really funny how you guys complain about having to carry anyone through a mission. In other games (where there is real skill involved) being able to carry a team is a thing to be proud of and those that do carry teams and looked up to and respected. But you guys don't get that respect because of your elitist attitudes and never ending forum bragging.
  • tankfox23tankfox23 Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Let me tell you what happens when you reach 20k in a pug:

    1. All the aggro will be focused on you
    2. You will die
    3. The pug will fail because the other players don't do enough damage
    4. One hour cooldown and 10 marks

    So if you want to, like win, you are now forced to congregate with like minded individuals that choose to push the dps limits. Unless you enjoy steps 1-4.
  • johnstewardjohnsteward Member Posts: 1,073 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I had this "discussion" a few days back with another player after we were in an stf together. At the end the parse looked something like me 20 something k and the rest like two with 5-6k and two more with 1-2k dps. Was an ISA. Well after i posted the dps log i was nice enough to add that I would ask them to not play advanced queues cause they are not ready for it.
    Then one of them wrote to me and we got in this kind of argument which is at the core of this thread:

    Its not me that made the mission this way. Thats all on cryptic. If there are say 20mil hps to be killed then its just a simple math thing to say well if we have 5k dps total this will take about 4k seconds which is about an hour and 45mins or something.

    Its not about being nice or not its about simple math and cryptic devs are the ones that set up the equation not me nor anybody from the dps leagues.

    It may feel like elitism sometimes and we all know that there are those in the dps league who like to feel like they are Q knows who but well bad apples are everywhere. There are also quite nice and helpful ppl in those channels ready to help you on a moments notice with advice builds and whatever else you have going on.

    And on the scrub part of the OP well i kind of recognized myself alot in this. I like to advanced to parse dps and get better but there are certain things I really dont enjoy. I really *really* hate the scim. I got it all three in all their uglyness but i almost never use them. I soend a lot to get other ships that do half the dmg but are much more fun for me to play with like say the rom temp escort or the recluse. I will never to top prime dps in those but i get to 30k or even more and thats enough for me. I dont like kamikaze builds which most of the top tier dps builds are. I like tanking. I know its mostly stupid in this game but i just love my fed eng. It does nice enough dmg but will never reach top tier.

    My point is not every dps guy out there is a mean elitist although certainly some are as are some with only 1k dps. In the end its a number generated by the game and has nothing to do with you personally. It may show that you have playstyles that arent really compatible with the game and what the game may ask of you to improve may be more than you are willing to do but in the end the stf numbers game stays whatever the devs make them out to be so dont be mad at other players when they tell you are failing in this numbers game set up by cryptic.

    Be mad at the devs for promoting strange playstyles or totally abandon the small player as they did with this current "difficulty" setup. Thats where your anger belongs. Forget about those few a*holed who think they are the center or sto because they do more dmg than you do. I could also point out enough low dps casuals who really like to ruin missions just for the fun of it.

    Its just that all this anger between playerd is mostly caused by bad player/difficulty management by cryptic. Its their job to make the game as playable as possible for everyone. And this bad management means that currently there may be no real mission for you as normal is too easy and advanced to hard or something.
  • rogerthomsonrogerthomson Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    I see so adding a commentary to the channel is objective and not insulting or belittling?

    you want to help people great but try being a little less judgemental

    segregation (worste word one could choose)

    "scub" - is a derogative term and everyone knows it

    "carry" the group - excuse me dont join any groups to carry anyone ..

    now lets look at this little so called objective bit.. the channel names and how you word it all

    "its depressing"

    public dps is anything below 10k i guess well i am a public dps and I can do stuff in your *cough* "decent" and "try hard" channels .. just silly..

    you also imply because a player is new buy using phrases like "half ways trying" for 10k dps that he is not trying.. which is condescending and insulting. You have no idea why he is doing that dps ..



    so remove the judgements and really bad wording and just post info maybe you will get a much more positive response but as someone who has characters across the gammit of dps low to high I can tell you right now

    i am no scrub. I dont need to "try harder" and I do not want people in my groups who join to "carry" me.. thank you very much.. go play privately ...

    that would be great stay out of the public q's which will contain all kinds of PEOPLE nice players who are by no means scrubs or not trying..

    Fine a have read your tekst and opinions. But can you now please be a bit more friendly and less hostile in your writings yourself? Is that possible?
  • sarcasmdetectorsarcasmdetector Member Posts: 1,176 Media Corps
    edited October 2014
    ermaname wrote: »
    The thing that you seem to be overlooking is that to some people, well, this is just a game, to relax to, to have a bit of fun, not to stress themselves into an early grave learning how to be up to others standards nor to try to be the best of the best.

    We haven't overlooked anything. Ryan has stated MULTIPLE times that people play the game for different reasons and that he doesn't have anything against that. So why do you come back and say that we are ignoring/overlooking that?
  • cpc2011acpc2011a Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    lmao...

    I'm sorry. I read through all of this, well most of it, and I have to say:
    If you think this is being elitist etc, then just hope they never tack on the typical gear-score bulls**t that always seems to follow mmos around. THEN you will see the tape measures come out and the zippers drop.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    tankfox23 wrote: »
    So I got my 10k and 20k invites do I just send out a request for a queue?

    If someone goes "LF4M - ISA - Bork", just go Bork to get an invite.
    If nobody's starting something, you can be the one to make one, and just throw it up there.
    ummax wrote: »
    I see so adding a commentary to the channel is objective and not insulting or belittling?
    Those are not the names of the channels.
  • rogerthomsonrogerthomson Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    You just reinforced every criticism about you really. The DPS channel crowd, is a bunch of elitist braggards that do nothing for this game or this community. Doing whatever DPS level you've achieved means nothing to anyone but you and your buddies and the few peeps that swing from your nuts.
    You guys are entertaining though and have provided me with many laughs as you proclaim your piloting skill and how gear and ships don't matter when in fact it's the opposite that's true. Gear and ships matter way too much in this game. News flash for you guys: skilled gamers don't play Star Trek Online. There off playing better more balanced games and most likely PvP at that.
    There is little to no skill needed to do well at any PvE content in this game. An understanding of game mechanics is not skill. Reading tool tips and min-maxing for DPS is not skill
    Captain Geko specifically said once in a pod-cast, that these items and mechanics are there for Min-Maxers to feel like special snowflakes when they put 2+2 together.
    Fact is, there is a lot of us that don't do high DPS because frankly we don't care to. That's not what this game is about for us and we don't care if you don't want to team with us or not and since you can't team kick people in this game then you can all stick to your little channels.

    It's really funny how you guys complain about having to carry anyone through a mission. In other games (where there is real skill involved) being able to carry a team is a thing to be proud of and those that do carry teams and looked up to and respected. But you guys don't get that respect because of your elitist attitudes and never ending forum bragging.

    No need te generalize. I find your post offensive.
  • strykewolf67strykewolf67 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Normal Queues are for everyone. you can fly in with any ship and any build and you'll do fine.

    -snip-

    See my Basic DPS Guide: the path to 10k-15k

    Interesting. I was taught to never put more than 6 into anything; cost-vs-boost sort of thing.
    [SIGPIC]http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=91438543000&dateline=1409236387[/SIGPIC]

    Sarah Knightly - Co-leader; Frontier Explorers - U.S.S. Witchblade
    Rias Gremory - Leader; Frontier Marauders - I.K.S. B'ullwinkle
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Fine a have read your tekst and opinions. But can you now please be a bit more friendly and less hostile in your writings yourself? Is that possible?

    maybe some of us would be less "hostile" if we weren't being insulted by players. There is a reason I dont join certain groups and channels. Its because I dont want to be associated with people who seem to somehow put themselves above others because they put together a ship that can attack with a certain dps number.

    just ... dont group with pugs if you feel that you need to carry them because you are so much better then those people just group with each other and leave the rest of us alone. I wonder what you do when a person in a pug "out dps's you". Does that means they carried you? :eek:
  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited October 2014
    Yeesh. So much fail on both sides.

    --- small vent ---

    I've played with porchsong, and as players go ranks up high on my 'decent human being scale'.

    Porch started the original DPS thread, sent me an invite (and I joined, bringing others with me) where I learned a lot about min/maxing my builds.

    There was NEVER a negative comment from Porch. Always supportive. Always helpful.

    I then took that knowledge and with help we became the 5th fleet (at least on the wiki list) to beat the NWS as a fleet. This was before the FAW sluttage.

    About this time there was a reformation, and we all had to 'retest' to stay in the new dps channels. I tested 2x with groups that included RyanSTO. A Fed ship, non cruiser which could put out 13K consistently. Not massive - it's not my thing - but more than enough to be supportive.

    Testing with 4 Scimidars was 'not productive'. Testing with the best, there wasn't anything left for me to hit. My DPS as tested was 2.6K/. Yay team.

    So no invite.

    What stood out for me was the public 'shaming' of having my score blasted in open channel. And the Jeers at 'how I should not have even asked to be tested'.

    There are great people working with the DPS channels to help anyone who wants it. They are good people. But there is a visible core to the DPS channels which is Elitist. A$$hole exist everywhere. That's life. That's ok, I choose not to retest.

    They've changed the rules a third time, further segregating a shrinking playerbase. Theres a third-party tool developed by another fan (I hear its great, but i won't install anything I can't verify or comes up as a security redflag for me).

    More power to them.

    --- OK, vent over ---


    What I will say is that more changes to the game are coming. Are you frustrated over rollbacks to XP and dilithium?

    Wait for the coming re-adjustment to the powers. It's already been talked about, and if you think for a moment it's not going to impact the obscenely high DPS (which the devs have said multiple times is clearly NOT what they intended), you are sorely mistaken.
  • sarcasmdetectorsarcasmdetector Member Posts: 1,176 Media Corps
    edited October 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    snip...

    the channel names can be found here: http://i.imgur.com/kTRthms.jpg
  • ezriryanezriryan Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    If you wont read it, I will just ignore what ur saying ;D

    ,,Its almost depressing how far off some people are." <- actually refers to your responses right now, to the responses of the same kind on the Videos we post, and basically to everyone calling us out for not being okay with other ppl. dealing less damage... As i stated multiple times, I am okay with however much damage you deal. Go read poste one.

    I can only assume that you are projecting from yourself. Because, if you would actually read it, from the top the the bottom, you might understand what i am trying to get at.
    Instead of spamming your destructive force of "let me copy this word here and there, pull this all out of context and... there it is)

    Because the thing about how off people are continues with:

    We never wanted that the game in general becomes overly difficult for the majority of people, we never asked for advanced (which was supposed to be the old elite) to be a 4 times increase. We asked for a new difficulty that would actually be challenging. These videos serve the purpose of showing, that the difficulty is not being increased by sliding the HP multiplier up. We, as well, never asked for the decrease in dilithium and neural processor gains from the STFs, Cryptic decided to do that on their own, and they can have all the credit for it.


    READ IT or leave it...




    ,,It's really funny how you guys complain about having to carry anyone through a mission. In other games (where there is real skill involved) being able to carry a team is a thing to be proud of and those that do carry teams and looked up to and respected. But you guys don't get that respect because of your elitist attitudes and never ending forum bragging."

    First off, we dont complain about having to carry anyone, if we do it, its for fun of the challenge usually.
    In others games I ranked 1 on DPS as well, thanks for asking. Have been raidleading for a while.

    Why you guys dont respect what we are doing? Because you feel this game should be so easy that whatever you are doing should be working, because you don't run combatlog readers to see for yourselves that we are actually doing it. We don't ask for credits or thanks though. But its funny how every 2 Minute ISA video is getting jumped at as elitist because you didnt put any time or effort into it, to understand what is going on. This is probably 95% of the community, another 5% have a variety of reasons.

    Honestly.. I am okay with your point of view, but I ask you to also accept that I am trying to improve.

    ,,It's a teamgame, if you deny your responsiblity towards the team, why should I feel in any way related to you? I am not getting paid to carry anyone through this."
    As in, I don't have to play with you, anymore than you have to play with me. Thats okay though.

    You guys just look for keywords all over the place, try to rip them out of context.
    read it first.

    If you don't care about my point of view, leave it be.
    I don't deny you the right of having one, but does your open-mindedness end, when it comes to mine?

    best regards
    RyanSTO
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    the channel names can be found here: http://i.imgur.com/kTRthms.jpg

    I am talking about this post with his obvious belittling commentary truly if you want to help people you dont insult them while doing so. I dont really care what your screenshot says since we are discussing someones behaviour and how they word things to you know us "scrubs" :)
  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited October 2014
    ezriryan wrote: »
    ...sniip...

    Why you guys dont respect what we are doing?

    ...snip...?

    best regards
    RyanSTO

    I was raised to respect those who earn it. And deserve it.

    Those who brag about it, and disrespect those who cannot equal them deserve contempt.

    Porch doesn't berate others. You do.

    Yay. You're awesome with DPS and I do respect the achievement.

    But as a player and human being I suspect you have a long way to go.
  • rogerthomsonrogerthomson Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    maybe some of us would be less "hostile" if we weren't being insulted by players. There is a reason I dont join certain groups and channels. Its because I dont want to be associated with people who seem to somehow put themselves above others because they put together a ship that can attack with a certain dps number.

    just ... dont group with pugs if you feel that you need to carry them because you are so much better then those people just group with each other and leave the rest of us alone. I wonder what you do when a person in a pug "out dps's you". Does that means they carried you? :eek:

    Very generalizing text you wrote "Its because I dont want to be associated with people who ...". And it sounds like you put yourself above others. And no one is forcing you to associate yourself with anyone.

    And sure there are people in game also in pugs who show what you discribe. Actualy while flying with people form the DPS channel I noticed far less of this behaviour, maybe because most people in those channels do decent DPS, or have good supporting roles.

    Anyway no reason to act hostile, if others write things you don't like.
  • porchsongporchsong Member Posts: 262 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    maybe some of us would be less "hostile" if we weren't being insulted by players. There is a reason I dont join certain groups and channels. Its because I dont want to be associated with people who seem to somehow put themselves above others because they put together a ship that can attack with a certain dps number.

    just ... dont group with pugs if you feel that you need to carry them because you are so much better then those people just group with each other and leave the rest of us alone. I wonder what you do when a person in a pug "out dps's you". Does that means they carried you? :eek:

    So your logic is: I won't join the channels b/c these guys don't want to "carry" others from queues? Anyone else here see the overwhelming hypocrisy here? We don't fly in the queues hence why we set up the channels--to avoid the queues. But you ACTIVELY avoid the channels b/c you don't want to associate? Pot calling the kettle black there. . . . You seem to be the one to flat out exclude a segment of the gaming community. We don't. We help anyone who asks--we don't exclude.

    So, time to look in mirror and see the ugliness staring back at you.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Interesting. I was taught to never put more than 6 into anything; cost-vs-boost sort of thing.

    It's a good general rule, since the returns decrease as you go up each color tier. However there are things where even with diminished returns, it's still worthwhile.

    I like to reference this chart when I spec my characters.

    So we can see the last three ranks of Warp Core Potential is probably not worth it, since that's 6000 skill points for around +0 Power. However the last three ranks of Maneuvers gives us an extra 3.2% Defense for 6000 skill points, so that's worth it.

    The chart's probably a bit out of date, but it's certainly better than what little in-game information there is. :P
  • sarcasmdetectorsarcasmdetector Member Posts: 1,176 Media Corps
    edited October 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    I am talking about this post with his obvious belittling commentary truly if you want to help people you dont insult them while doing so. I dont really care what your screenshot says since we are discussing someones behaviour and how they word things to you know us "scrubs" :)

    I suggest you re-read the following slowly, ii've bolded and underlined certain key parts:
    Personally, I have always been against the numbers behind the DPS-Channels names. But.. its the easiest way to tell apart to which part of the community you currently belong.
    The seggragation could also be called:

    DPS- Casual (Called DPS-Public)
    DPS- Half ways trying (10k)
    DPS- Decent (20k)
    DPS - Try-Hard (30k)
  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    maybe some of us would be less "hostile" if we weren't being insulted by players. There is a reason I dont join certain groups and channels. Its because I dont want to be associated with people who seem to somehow put themselves above others because they put together a ship that can attack with a certain dps number.

    just ... dont group with pugs if you feel that you need to carry them because you are so much better then those people just group with each other and leave the rest of us alone. I wonder what you do when a person in a pug "out dps's you". Does that means they carried you? :eek:

    It isn't about being the top. By the math of infected advanced, in order to kill the required enemies within the timer to avoid a failure of the mission, the team must do a minimum of 15k DPs average. Whether anyone tells you or not during a specific run, this is simply the math of the queue. this is fact not opinion, and it was the developers who set the NPc hit points.

    If you or I do 10k, but the team won, then *someone* on the team "carried us". Simple as that because without someone else making up that extra 5k the run would have been a fail.

    What Ryan, porch, and sarcasm are trying to do, is point the people who are doing less than that 15k to tools that will help them cross the line. Whether they could do it more diplomatically, well, I did recommend a PR person =)
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    porchsong wrote: »
    So your logic is: I won't join the channels b/c these guys don't want to "carry" others from queues? Anyone else here see the overwhelming hypocrisy here? We don't fly in the queues hence why we set up the channels--to avoid the queues. But you ACTIVELY avoid the channels b/c you don't want to associate? Pot calling the kettle black there. . . . You seem to be the one to flat out exclude a segment of the gaming community. We don't. We help anyone who asks--we don't exclude.

    So, time to look in mirror and see the ugliness staring back at you.

    I see so you found that initial post okay and not condescending? I am sorry but if i was even considering it to get groups (which i was at one point) the desire to join evaporated when I read a post like the OP awhile back because I dont want to be in a group that according to the OP thinks I am a scrub and feels that they need to carry me or someone else.

    I dont know you I see only a guy explaining something using all sorts of derogatory terms. People complain about public perception and cryptic for how they use terminology and then in many cases those same people turn around and do the same thing. Actually worse in this case.

    Maybe if the other post and this one had not flown by I would have joined ... but.. well yeah no thanks you can thank the person who is posting and advertising in the OP for that.

    As far as anyone on the 'outside' looking in is concerned since he is representing this group of people he obviously speaks for them and it appears that many support his words. I think from what I have seen my judgment is sound. I see no one apologizing for it just a bunch of people defending it.
  • rogerthomsonrogerthomson Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Yeesh. So much fail on both sides.

    --- small vent ---

    I've played with porchsong, and as players go ranks up high on my 'decent human being scale'.

    Porch started the original DPS thread, sent me an invite (and I joined, bringing others with me) where I learned a lot about min/maxing my builds.

    There was NEVER a negative comment from Porch. Always supportive. Always helpful.

    I then took that knowledge and with help we became the 5th fleet (at least on the wiki list) to beat the NWS as a fleet. This was before the FAW sluttage.

    About this time there was a reformation, and we all had to 'retest' to stay in the new dps channels. I tested 2x with groups that included RyanSTO. A Fed ship, non cruiser which could put out 13K consistently. Not massive - it's not my thing - but more than enough to be supportive.

    Testing with 4 Scimidars was 'not productive'. Testing with the best, there wasn't anything left for me to hit. My DPS as tested was 2.6K/. Yay team.

    So no invite.

    What stood out for me was the public 'shaming' of having my score blasted in open channel. And the Jeers at 'how I should not have even asked to be tested'.

    There are great people working with the DPS channels to help anyone who wants it. They are good people. But there is a visible core to the DPS channels which is Elitist. A$$hole exist everywhere. That's life. That's ok, I choose not to retest.

    They've changed the rules a third time, further segregating a shrinking playerbase. Theres a third-party tool developed by another fan (I hear its great, but i won't install anything I can't verify or comes up as a security redflag for me).

    More power to them.

    --- OK, vent over ---


    What I will say is that more changes to the game are coming. Are you frustrated over rollbacks to XP and dilithium?

    Wait for the coming re-adjustment to the powers. It's already been talked about, and if you think for a moment it's not going to impact the obscenely high DPS (which the devs have said multiple times is clearly NOT what they intended), you are sorely mistaken.

    I am sorry for your bad experience. Does it outweight all the good experiences? Can you forgive the people? I only can hope so :)
  • ermanameermaname Member Posts: 113 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The problem may be that you aren't writing these posts very well and they come off as arrogant and show a sense of self entitlement, you may not mean it to come across this way, but the wording seems to imply that if we don't play the way you want we should not be allowed to play certain content.

    ''DPS- Casual (Called DPS-Public)
    DPS- Half ways trying (10k)
    DPS- Decent (20k)
    DPS - Try-Hard (30k)''

    Is just insulting, to some people doing 10k is hard, believe me I have fleet mates that almost quit as they cannot get their dps up and stuff like this just makes some people feel even worse (and yes, they have been shown, ironically, alot of info you guys have created, which helps, but some just cannot replicate what others find easy) Yes I saw that you justify this by saying you don't like the way this is, but you still described it in an unnecessarily condescending way).

    ''Every half ways good player can squeeze 10k+ out of basically every ship in the game. (Level 10 Rhode Island Sci ship for example.. So if you dont do that, you're either not applying yourself, and therefore intentionally waste everyones (including your own) time, or actually don't know whats going on.''

    There are some people who play that have various health issues, some quite debilitating, this is their escapism, to belittle others without knowing their situations is beyond arrogant. Should they not be allowed to play?

    The whole scrubs quote thing? Yes it is a quote of someone else, but it was chosen as you felt it was a good way of describing people that don't come up to scratch, just because someone else said it first, doesn't mean that your reusing it takes the sting out of what you are saying.

    I have read every post in this thread, your intentions may be different but the way this comes across is not helpful, but more condescending.
  • rogerthomsonrogerthomson Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    I see so you found that initial post okay and not condescending? I am sorry but if i was even considering it to get groups (which i was at one point) the desire to join evaporated when I read a post like the OP awhile back because I dont want to be in a group that according to the OP thinks I am a scrub and feels that they need to carry me or someone else.

    I dont know you I see only a guy explaining something using all sorts of derogatory terms. People complain about public perception and cryptic for how they use terminology and then in many cases those same people turn around and do the same thing. Actually worse in this case.

    Maybe if the other post and this one had not flown by I would have joined ... but.. well yeah no thanks you can thank the person who is posting and advertising in the OP for that.

    As far as anyone on the 'outside' looking in is concerned since he is representing this group of people he obviously speaks for them and it appears that many support his words. I think from what I have seen my judgment is sound. I see no one apologizing for it just a bunch of people defending it.

    I would like to understand, why you refuse to be friendly. What do you gain from being rude, generalizing and unfriendly?
  • trek801trek801 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Ryan -

    I enjoyed your video of ISA alot! I didn't realize their was a public dps channel dedicated to helping others increase their dps and thus improving their game. I plan on joining it if Cryptic gets their act together. If Cryptic continues, I am unsure if I will keep playing the game. At the moment, I'm pretty disheartened with the way Cryptic handled the skill point thing and labeling people "cheaters". I disagree with their methods and vehemently disagree it was an exploit. (I wasn't affected but many in my fleet were and are considering leaving the game. My fleet leader is a member of your 30k dps channel btw and he was affected as well.)

    I'm appalled by the negative responses you've had and wanted you to know that I, for one, appreciate you taking the time to post information about dps, etc. Thank you very much and thank you for your willingness to help.


    Sam
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ezriryanezriryan Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ''DPS- Casual (Called DPS-Public)
    DPS- Half ways trying (10k)
    DPS- Decent (20k)
    DPS - Try-Hard (30k)''

    calling myself try-hard didnt really get across how serioulsy this was meant it would seem.

    Basically its "names for channels" on the TS I actually suggested it to be called "devision I, II and III" but it has been agreed upon that that might not be clear enough.


    I never said you could not improve if you tried. Or claimed anyone was playing BAD. I never judged over someone's playstyle.


    There are some people who play that have various health issues, some quite debilitating, this is their escapism, to belittle others without knowing their situations is beyond arrogant. Should they not be allowed to play?



    Let me quote the original post:
    We never wanted that the game in general becomes overly difficult for the majority of people, we never asked for advanced (which was supposed to be the old elite) to be a 4 times increase. We asked for a new difficulty that would actually be challenging. These videos serve the purpose of showing, that the difficulty is not being increased by sliding the HP multiplier up. We, as well, never asked for the decrease in dilithium and neural processor gains from the STFs, Cryptic decided to do that on their own, and they can have all the credit for it.
    [...]
    On another note, these videos may be used as a guideline, along with our guide videos where we explain how and why these builds work. But they do at no point force you to play anything like this. This is a suggestion and a practical display of how things can (!) be played, but not neccessarily have to be played. Therefore no one needs to feel vilified.
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    From an outsiders perspective with no horse in the race - just sticking to the raw numbers for titles is best. Adding any words adds subjective meaning.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited October 2014
    I am sorry for your bad experience. Does it outweight all the good experiences? Can you forgive the people? I only can hope so :)

    Forgiveness? Thats a whole other dynamic and conversation. What I will say is I don't hold a grudge because a few people acted inappropriately. My life would be devoid of human contacts if I did that, LOL.

    At the end of the day - this is a game.

    I was helped by the old channel, by too many to list here. And my game has improved immensely. Finishing NWS as a fleet team was the highlight although anything that followed that first win seemed 'easier'.

    With the new gear and ships I had my KDF break 20K the other day. I'm sure we'll cross paths at some point.

    Some people demand respect. Donald Trump for example. Justin Bieber. STORyan.

    I don't knock their achievements. Just the bravado.

    Tone it down and with humility you'll earn respect.
  • tankfox23tankfox23 Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    These guys may be elitist (if I did 70k dps I might be too), but they are not asking anyone to join. They purposefully placed themselves apart so the so called "scrubs", aka average joe, was left to their own devices in their pugs. I monitored the chat traffic on the channels and the only chat I saw was folks trying to help each other. Humans segregate themselves along common interests all the time (clubs, religion, party affiliation, etc). So even though some of what has been said might come off sounding elitist, the reality of the game now is that if you don't bring the dps you are ruining the instance for me, and others. I used to love running experiments, but that's for normal only now.

    When I see parses and I do 66% of the dps I kind of feel like I carried the pug. Wouldn't anyone?

    I blame cryptic for bringing the bags of hp and turning timed optionals into mandatory conditions. All this hate is directed towards the wrong people. At least these guys are willing to help. Until I started coming to the forums and analyzing sarcasmdetector's builds I had no clue how to build my ship properly. It doesn't help that skills have a major say on how much dps one will do and that's behind a pay wall. I had to respec twice until I got a set of skills that worked.

    It doesn't help that the tooltips have very little or even erroneous information. Or the horrible builds that you are given (dyson build anyone?) that don't do anything to teach folks to build properly.

    There's a lot wrong with this game a group of like minded individuals getting together to go through content in the most efficient way possible (high dps) in my opinion is not one of them. Especially since they are willing to share their knowledge and help others.
  • ezriryanezriryan Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    for clarity reasons removed the quotes from other players
This discussion has been closed.