I am personally fully okay with someone saying he is playing the game for fun, and doesnt care about the dps.
I dont find him to be worth less as a person or call him stupid for not caring. It is a game.
A game I decided to play as good as I possibly can. Therefore we organize like-minded people in Channels and play in a (to us) fun environment.
If you are trying to say that is wrong, then I just ask for the same amount of respect towards those that decided to put all the time and effort into this game.
Yes really.
I understand that everyone has different things they care about.
Sucks to be called something you don't think you are doesn't it? Some of ya real fast to call people exploiters and laugh at them they attempt to defend themselves.
Please scrubbies keep posting. The irony is highly amusing.
Amongst the top tier DPSers i am really the oddball of the bunch. Not only do i mainly play with my Fed toon (ie: not a scimitar), i also switch between different ships just for fun.
No one has ever rebuked or demeaned me for how i play... except for Mal, he hit me with about 30k FPS (Fagots per Second). Joking
The worst thing i've ever heard from those a2b FAW scimitards was the backhanded compliment: "You do amazing things with non-optimal ships".
TL DR: no one really cares how or why you play as long as you aren't hurting the team.
Ryan thanks for your post, As well as the link you provided. Pre-DR I was toying with the DPS stuff, now that it is a requirement I'll be joing the dps-public channel, and trying to get my damge up there. I look forward to working with you guys.
It doesn't help that the tooltips have very little or even erroneous information. Or the horrible builds that you are given (dyson build anyone?) that don't do anything to teach folks to build properly.
Oh man, the Obelisk. 4 beam arrays, with a torpedo launcher fore and aft. That thing can't turn for beans, and they spread the arcs around like that. :mad:
The problem may be that you aren't writing these posts very well and they come off as arrogant and show a sense of self entitlement, you may not mean it to come across this way, but the wording seems to imply that if we don't play the way you want we should not be allowed to play certain content.
Is just insulting, to some people doing 10k is hard, believe me I have fleet mates that almost quit as they cannot get their dps up and stuff like this just makes some people feel even worse (and yes, they have been shown, ironically, alot of info you guys have created, which helps, but some just cannot replicate what others find easy) Yes I saw that you justify this by saying you don't like the way this is, but you still described it in an unnecessarily condescending way).
''Every half ways good player can squeeze 10k+ out of basically every ship in the game. (Level 10 Rhode Island Sci ship for example.. So if you dont do that, you're either not applying yourself, and therefore intentionally waste everyones (including your own) time, or actually don't know whats going on.''
There are some people who play that have various health issues, some quite debilitating, this is their escapism, to belittle others without knowing their situations is beyond arrogant. Should they not be allowed to play?
The whole scrubs quote thing? Yes it is a quote of someone else, but it was chosen as you felt it was a good way of describing people that don't come up to scratch, just because someone else said it first, doesn't mean that your reusing it takes the sting out of what you are saying.
I have read every post in this thread, your intentions may be different but the way this comes across is not helpful, but more condescending.
yup its all about marketting and if people dont want to come off as elitist etc etc then a better choice of words is in order.
Anyhow this `butthurt scrub` can do 30k dps on one ship and probably tops their charts which is the irony of the thing. So in retrospect using their wording I guess i must be `carrying their group`even though i am a `scrub`cause i am not one of them.
I like to do pick up groups though i have made a few friends that way. I had considered joining their channels just to find people to group with until i started reading the condescending posts and truly I dont want to be a part of that or be painted with the same brush and be labelled as elistist`... so I guess if I had my druthers.. I would rather be a `butt hurt scrub` if i must have a label I prefer it to being an elitist who sits and copies and pastes dps readouts and makes fun of people if they dont conform to their picture of `a good player`.
It really is insulting and anyone that thinks its not is not being honest with themselves.
In the beginning they start with how it was not in any of their requests to have this frankly ridiculous across the board increase in the health and thus time to kill of the enemies.
In the second half however we are told that essentially the only way to play the endgame at any kind of high level is to go to an absolute bleeding edge DPS build and if you don't then you're doing it wrong...which seems contradictory to the conciliatory spirit of the first half. I do understand that that actually is the limited parameters that the Dev team continues to set by making everything about finishing the big elite queues and even the advanced queues in a certain time limit instead of something like actually creating alternative objectives to complete so I can't really fault that. But the tone seemed to change. Maybe it's because I didn't read the original.
I must compliment the throw reference though, as an old fighting game specialist that brought back memories. No better way to check a turtle sorry Mario.
As far as DPS goes, as a dedicated cruiser Captain on my main I've put a lot of energy into trying to raise my DPS. It's often hard to tell how successful I am with one DPS parser saying 4000, and another saying 8000 with spikes into 12000. (I use ACT, but someone else posted different results). To say nothing for the differences that occur when five people's debuffs are hitting one target. I do just about everything I can with a nonexistent budget everything pretty much coming from grinding and giveaways. I can't afford a tachyokinetic converter, or anything like that. I suppose I'm at fault for preferring phasers to antiprotons and maybe that's something to look at in the future. Before DR I was able to solo one of the generators in Khitomer Accord in a reasonable amount of time cube and all. I've received a lot of help from many players over the years from the team that walked me through my first elite Borg STFs last year (I was mortified to try because I had read the forums and all the rage against noobs who were too weak and had no idea what they were doing plus I didn't think my MkXI Purple gear was good enough) and they ended up being not that hard, to the guy who went over my build and put me on to high level FAW and Attack Pattern Beta.
I don't know where I fit in to the paradigm. All I know is that I went into the first iteration of Delta Rising Crystalline Entity Advanced last week, because as I understood it it was supposed to be identical to old elite, and fought the damn thing down to 33% with my team, and no further. Fourteen times the hp and the regen increased on the last seven million. Forty minutes as people gave up and left. I died twice in the same gear that I had the day before Delta Rising in that time. One of those times was when we were getting swarmed by the also absurd HP Tholians when there were only four people left. Came back after they chopped off two thirds of the things HP and did fine, business as usual.
I don't know about the other queues, I'm not gonna jump on them until I'm level 60, but I hope that first experience wasn't a taste of things to come. I won't be going elite until I'm well down my specialization trees and have MK 14 shields and weapons at least across the board. I'm just gonna take my time.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I would like to understand, why you refuse to be friendly. What do you gain from being rude, generalizing and unfriendly?
how do i respond to rude posts like the OP which was extremely rude and belittling. "thank you for insulting the community" ?
What would you like me to say that you would consider better ? I was direct but not rude unlike the OP. I pointed out the posts were rude. Some people argued with me so i quoted the rude bits and suggested politely I might add that if they dont want to come off as elitist that they should reword their posts.
Since the OP is filled with ego and bravado and basically calling others a failure etc and "not trying" among other things how does one respond. I can appreciate he is attempting to provide information and recruit (i think) unfortunately it reads as an insulting put down. I dont think me asking him to reword his posts to be more polite is wrong. I also wont be thanking him for basically insulting people who dont join those channels which is what he is doing. Every player not in that group is basically a scrub and a failure. Pretty sure that is a generalization. If you can't see that and want to ignore it and make excuses for it that is fine, but as a member of that group he is representing you. Perhaps people should choose a more tactful spokesperson?
I am not sure I understand the beef here. Can someone give me the cliffnotes?
As far as I know there is no right built or right way to play the game. If I want to fly in with a rainboat then thats my prerogative, is it not? If I want to fly a sci vessel with all torps, thats my call. It might make for a more difficult game, but maybe thats the way I like it.
If someone wants to run an uber-DPS machine so be it.
The ONLY playstyle I do not agree with is one where a player purposefully and wilfully interrupts or disrupts the game for others.
Eliteism isnt a thing, its an attitude. No one is genuinely more elite than any one else, they just think they are.
how do i respond to rude posts like the OP which was extremely rude and belittling. "thank you for insulting the community" ?
What would you like me to say that you would consider better ? I was direct but not rude unlike the OP. I pointed out the posts were rude. Some people argued with me so i quoted the rude bits and suggested politely I might add that if they dont want to come off as elitist that they should reword their posts.
Since the OP is filled with ego and bravado and basically calling others a failure etc and "not trying" among other things how does one respond. I can appreciate he is attempting to provide information and recruit (i think) unfortunately it reads as an insulting put down. I dont think me asking him to reword his posts to be more polite is wrong. I also wont be thanking him for basically insulting people who dont join those channels which is what he is doing. Every player not in that group is basically a scrub and a failure. Pretty sure that is a generalization. If you can't see that and want to ignore it and make excuses for it that is fine, but as a member of that group he is representing you. Perhaps people should choose a more tactful spokesperson?
it would have helped if you had read it, before jumping to conclusions by reading certain keywords.
I was wrong about putting in other peoples quotes without clearly emphasizing on what is my opinion regarding what they said.
it would have helped if you had read it, before jumping to conclusions by reading certain keywords.
I was wrong about putting in other peoples quotes without clearly emphasizing on what is my opinion regarding what they said.
And it might still help.
I read it all of it.. it came off as an egostical "look at me" type post labelling people. If you dont want people to be put off by certain words then the solution is to use better words that dont put people off that is the entire point.
obviously you agree with the words otherwise you would not include and use them. You want me to read it I have.. it was .. insulting.
I read it all of it.. it came off as an egostical "look at me" type post labelling people. If you dont want people to be put off by certain words then the solution is to use better words that dont put people off that is the entire point.
obviously you agree with the words otherwise you would not include and use them. You want me to read it I have.. it was .. insulting.
signed "the butthurt scrub" :eek:
So you're saying everyone is either unique or everyone is the same? That DPS Channels concept cant be done because everyone is his very own singular number? And that binning the results basically is labelling people. Are you a member of a labelling institute they call "fleets"? DPS channels is basically a fleet of like-minded people, that dont need to carry around a label.
Do you think you fit the given description by Sirlin? I wonder why you are so offended by how someone might regard a personality playing the game. Are we not allowed own points of view?
There was nothing insulting in that, unless you projected it into it. Its not even judging whether or not its good to be, what sirlin calls a scrub. Possibly they are the happiest of players? Why are you so offended by that?
If you, due to personal preference don't agree, thats okay, I can live with you having a different opinion, can you as well?
So what other word would u have me remove?
If you call yourself a scrub, that is your own thing. I am hoping that with some help no one has to be one. But if you insist, you are free to choose.
It's really funny how you guys complain about having to carry anyone through a mission. In other games (where there is real skill involved) being able to carry a team is a thing to be proud of and those that do carry teams and looked up to and respected. But you guys don't get that respect because of your elitist attitudes and never ending forum bragging.
THIS... what he said! Right above!
I love the fact that the almighty DPS groups ALWAYS SAY...
"We help people!"
...yet they whine when someone who is new to the game, joins an STF via the queue which is the way Cryptic set it up and then wail on about carrying someone.
Irony? Much?
I pug a lot.. an awfull lot, my fleet excelsior can break into 15k dps but thats it for that old ship, my cheat shi....sorry... my Scimitar is right now getting close to the 30k mark. Yes, i have failed a LOT of advanced STF's. Yes i complain to my fleet mates that i failed, but I always post the DPS log into the team chat even after a fail...and a lot of time the low DPS'ers thank me for it.
Now, in a few of those pug matches, some of the knuckle dragging chest beating "elite" was in it, then said they "carried" me?! In a 25k dps scimitar, apparently if your below 30k dps you are now being carried.
riiiiiiiiiiiight....
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
I love the fact that the almighty DPS groups ALWAYS SAY...
"We help people!"
...yet they whine when someone who is new to the game, joins an STF via the queue which is the way Cryptic set it up and then wail on about carrying someone.
Irony? Much?
I pug a lot.. an awfull lot, my fleet excelsior can break into 15k dps but thats it for that old ship, my cheat shi....sorry... my Scimitar is right now getting close to the 30k mark. Yes, i have failed a LOT of advanced STF's. Yes i complain to my fleet mates that i failed, but I always post the DPS log into the team chat even after a fail...and a lot of time the low DPS'ers thank me for it.
Now, in a few of those pug matches, some of the knuckle dragging chest beating "elite" was in it, then said they "carried" me?! In a 25k dps scimitar, apparently if your below 30k dps you are now being carried.
riiiiiiiiiiiight....
It's true.... we don't have the mechanics in place where we have distinctive roles of DPS/TANK/CAREBEAR. In MMOs where this is a thing, a team environment is just that - a TEAM. If the DPS doesn't do their job or the CB doesnt keep the tank healed or the tank doesn't keep aggro the entire thing can fall apart. In STO, anyone can waltz in, swaggering like they just walked in through the saloon doors and pew-pew until the thing is dead.
Other than the OFFENSIVE skills there's no point in even flying a science ship unless you just like the look of it. In a group you don't have to extend shields or whatnot to keep your tank alive... and a cruiser should be just that, a tank. Capable of taking massive damage and holding aggro, NOT dealing high DPS. Leave that for the rogues who sneak in and whittle the baddie down.
THATS how a balanced game works. Everyone can solo but everyone works better as a team. STO just doesnt have it I remember it once had something similar, back in the beginning, under Atari, but not now. Not even close.
I am not sure I understand the beef here. Can someone give me the cliffnotes?
As far as I know there is no right built or right way to play the game. If I want to fly in with a rainboat then thats my prerogative, is it not? If I want to fly a sci vessel with all torps, thats my call. It might make for a more difficult game, but maybe thats the way I like it.
If someone wants to run an uber-DPS machine so be it.
The ONLY playstyle I do not agree with is one where a player purposefully and wilfully interrupts or disrupts the game for others.
If you do 3k and go in advanced or elite, you are a hindrance to your team, meaning you disrupt their game willfully (as you are pretty much dead weight), except you can compensate it with massive CC. however the need of CC is coupled directly to the situation and the DPS of you team members. Hence even if you could use CC, its useless if you are not able to do as everything dies to fast.
If you join a private queue, thats something else, but for a public queue you should do a decent job, and compensate the lack of dps with something other useful in the mission. That can be drawing aggro or CC, but in a good group, neither will be needed (which is a good thing, freedom of choice etc.).
In fact, you can do good CC or good tanking while delivering 10k+ dps (for tanking dps(*threat) is also a requirement. A zombie alone doesnt make a tank). Just a matter of build, and that doesnt need to be minmaxed.
THATS how a balanced game works. Everyone can solo but everyone works better as a team. STO just doesnt have it I remember it once had something similar, back in the beginning, under Atari, but not now. Not even close.
What you want is trinity, and like religion, its an archaic concept which should burn in - a little hypocrism here- hell. But even for that there are channels out there, which enforce such a concept. But not the public queue (which is a good thing), so if you want it, make or join such a channel.
And if the day comes, and the skills get revamped, it will go down the same way DR went down: We damn elitistic high-dps-players will simply adapt, and nothing will really change for us, but the casuals and the ones with frozen mindset (Ryan quoted them as scrubs) will be the ones to suffer, and as so I look forward to that day, when they all cry in agony. Again.
Though I pity the real casuals. The ones with frozen mindset saw the train coming but remained on the tracks.
I was raised to respect those who earn it. And deserve it.
Those who brag about it, and disrespect those who cannot equal them deserve contempt.
Porch doesn't berate others. You do.
Yay. You're awesome with DPS and I do respect the achievement.
But as a player and human being I suspect you have a long way to go.
I've read through most of this thread, stopped here because I think I've read enough. I'm going to try and draw a comparison here, which maybe maybe not will help everyone understand where the issue is, at least from my perspective.
So this example starts with two groups, my ground team and the DPS group. My team is simply a group of people from my fleet who like running ground missions. Now we have posted videos of some of our achievements, hell check my signature if you want to look. However when we post them we're very much rate them as 'something for people to watch and enjoy, maybe take something from if they want/happen to.'
Very occasionally we have used them to make a point, and that has been successful more than not, but on the whole we like to show people what can be done, because we enjoy it and we hope others enjoy the show, and usually it has come across that way in the responses we have had.
Then we have the DPS channels. Same principle in the sense that they're showing off their achievements, however they have a backdrop to contend with which has been exasperated by DR.
Many people have had encounters with DPS people in missions, some good and some bad, but the bad press does get around because it happens frequently. I've had to deal with these issues myself when fleet members have come to me and said that they've had abuse from a member of those channels. Now combine that with the videos and the fact, and this is a fact, that the main goal for you all is DPS, it should be clear why people take the wrong end of the stick.
It's because of attitude. You aren't taken seriously, like now, because while your saying this two things are happening; first is that people who are condescending never get reprimanded as far as anyone can see and secondly DR has essentially said 'DPS or go home' which for a lot of people has made it feel like their builds have been heel-stomped into the ground.
Now if it was our channel that people were being rude in, they'd be out on their hind ends faster than they can contemplate because we don't stand for drama, rudeness to others or anything else that's completely uncalled for.
I suppose in a nut shell, what I'm trying to say is that you guys have a bad image, and you're going to have a hard time shaking that when people have been given reason to resent you. And I'll be brutally honest I've had a rough life in some ways and I'm hardened to a lot of trash, but honestly there's no reason to call someone a scrub or anything else, even if it's meant in jest. I wouldn't call someone weak just because they can't take that, I actually see it as a good thing they've not had reason to toughen up to that kind of thing.
I want you guys to be able to share the same warm reception my team gets, I really do. But it really does come down to image and that's something you guys might want to think about, because from where I'm standing I do truly believe that's the issue.
I know some of your guys and ladies are good folks, so if you cleaned it up I don't think you'd have trouble retaining it after.
Edit: Writing that wiped me out admittedly, hope it comes across okay.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
If you do 3k and go in advanced or elite, you are a hindrance to your team, meaning you disrupt their game willfully (as you are pretty much dead weight), except you can compensate it with massive CC. however the need of CC is coupled directly to the situation and the DPS of you team members. Hence even if you could use CC, its useless if you are not able to do as everything dies to fast.
If you join a private queue, thats something else, but for a public queue you should do a decent job, and compensate the lack of dps with something other useful in the mission. That can be drawing aggro or CC, but in a good group, neither will be needed (which is a good thing, freedom of choice etc.).
In fact, you can do good CC or good tanking while delivering 10k+ dps (for tanking dps(*threat) is also a requirement. A zombie alone doesnt make a tank). Just a matter of build, and that doesnt need to be minmaxed.
What you want is trinity, and like religion, its an archaic concept which should burn in - a little hypocrism here- hell. But even for that there are channels out there, which enforce such a concept. But not the public queue (which is a good thing), so if you want it, make or join such a channel.
And if the day comes, and the skills get revamped, it will go down the same way DR went down: We damn elitistic high-dps-players will simply adapt, and nothing will really change for us, but the casuals and the ones with frozen mindset (Ryan quoted them as scrubs) will be the ones to suffer, and as so I look forward to that day, when they all cry in agony. Again.
Though I pity the real casuals. The ones with frozen mindset saw the train coming but remained on the tracks.
Believe it or not, I pretty much agree with you across the board, with a slight exception. What you have outlined means that pugs are dead as far as elite queues go. As for myself, I'll reserve those for when I cruise with my feet because, although my Romulan Tac officer in her Scim has pretty decent DPS, my Fed Eng in her Galaxy X does not nor shall she ever have. It's not her role to toss out massive DPS. It's her role to take the heat and damage while those with the DPS do their jobs.
Whether you like it or not, the trinity concept is a solid one that works. What you're promoting is the very definition of elitism; and not in a good way. You're essentially stating "The elite queues are ours, kids. Stay out!"
That, simply, just won't do. If you feel this way then i suggest it is you who avoid pugs in elite queues. Still, I suggest the same thing for those who can't pull large DPS; stay out of elite pugs - go in with a strong team or fleetmates instead.
DR has essentially said 'DPS or go home' which for a lot of people has made it feel like their builds have been heel-stomped into the ground.
^^ So much this....^^ Cryptic has done little but to pander to a select few with DR, it seems. A shame, really. This means that every ship and every player will be forced into a cookie-cutter form to play. Such a shame...
Whether you like it or not, the trinity concept is a solid one that works. What you're promoting is the very definition of elitism; and not in a good way. You're essentially stating "The elite queues are ours, kids. Stay out!"
That, simply, just won't do. If you feel this way then i suggest it is you who avoid pugs in elite queues. Still, I suggest the same thing for those who can't pull large DPS; stay out of elite pugs - go in with a strong team or fleetmates instead.
The trinity can work, but it is not the be-all and end-all of teaming. And there are other options that don't mean "stay out". In fact, the point of the thread has been the opposite, just poorly expressed.
Personally, I think the world of game design will be much improved when the trinity is as obsolete and ignored as svga monitors, and teamwork based mechanics exist that reward multitasking, not just pew-pew DPs. I think Borg disconnected is a decent step in the right direction, where controls and stealth and a tank work in place of damage to allow freeing the good Borg. Its not perfect, but it's a good first step.
Thanks, I've heard it's easier to use, but I can't figure out how to install this. 6 jpegs, a gif, a png, Combat Log folder, and a META-INF folder. I'm at an installation dead end. This is what I mean by something being too technical for the average player, I have no idea if there's an .exe buried in there somewhere or not (haven't found one yet) or if I'm supposed to install it some other way, or just leave it as-is.
you need java. install java and just run CombatLogReader.jar file.
You guys are missing the whole actual point of the DPS Channels in the first place.
There's 2 reasons for them:
A: Minimum standard that if you form a group from people in that channel, you know everyone should achieve in both tactical understanding and damage potential
B: A higher bar to strive for, to improve your configuration and play-style.
Nothing more.
If you're testing, just let people know you're testing so when that escort you were flying only does 16k but you joined from the 30k channel, it's not a WHY U BRING THAT surprise. The main reason that bringing a lower than advertised ship is an issue is solely because everyone's trying to improve... and as these stf's are a team effort, a weak link is still a weak link.
There's another factor that's been touched on. Efficiency.
If I, or anyone else, can gather a 5 player 30k team.... we can finish a "tour" of all the borg missions previously on elite, now on advanced, in the same time-frame that a pug group would finish ISA and be queued for another STF if they stuck together. It's just a reality of a fixed amount of enemies/health vs the damage capacity a good team will put out.
That's more dilith, more EC from junk to vendor, more BNP's, and more marks. Then you can go PVP or grind on something else or go get another beer and banter with fleet-mates on teamspeak.
The vast majority of people play this game to have fun.
Your version of the game is not the same version that a captain of a Sciences vessel has.
Many people truly love to tank and are not bothered about having 50K DPS.
Your group is coming across way to aggressive, to the point of forcing people to play your style.
I have seem countless posts from the DPS group just insulting people instead of replaying about the subject.
The attacks on DEVs and other people in community are quite shameful and has severely hurt your groups image.
What you don't understand is you cannot tell people how to play the game.
I chat with other fleet leaders and compare notes often to to see how as a fleet to keep people playing.
What I learned is fun must be defined by each person one how they want to play the game.
DPS might be your thing and I personally find dishing out high DPS to easy.
Helping others, giving to others much of my game time, and not dying in any missions much harder than DPS.
You may be surrounded with DPS game style individuals and think that its the entire world.
What other people see is thats is your world and your game style and not theirs.
Fun must be defined by each person one how they want to play the game and not the DPS Channel.
Here is an example of someone who does not read the OP. They skimmed through looking for keywords and when they found them they post a reply arguing against the strawmen in their head.
Let me make a few things clear to you Blake.
1. Your PvE bootcamp was judge by the whole community to be a farce and a con. stop trying to make yourself relevant again.
2. No one is forcing anyone else to play a certain way. We've stated multiple times, over and over again, that we understand people play the game for fun. you seem to just skip over that part due to not understanding, either intentional or just ignorance. I believe you are intentionally cherry picking through our posts just so you can rant at your strawmen.
3. Tanking a is great, tanking is about AGGRO management. In order to have AGGRO in this game you need to do DPS. it's that simple. If you are a tank and cannot grab and hold aggro then you are useless. There is no point to being able to survive anything an STF can throw at you if they NPCs are not shooting at you.
4. if "dishing out high DPS is easy" then everyone would be in the 30k DPS channel and we could just delete DPS 10k and 20k.
5. The most important thing in a PvE queue is FINISHING the queue. being able to live through it is secondary to actually killing things.
6. People can have as much fun as they want in solo content. As soon as they click the "join queue" button then they have to become a productive member of the team. That means DPS, CC, Debuffs, healing, and AGGRO tanking.
turtles and "just for fun" types and gimmicks need to stick to the Normal queues.
Edit: You may not be answering me, but I find it amusing no one bothers to read it considering everyone seems happy to have a go about no one reading the OP...
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Edit: You may not be answering me, but I find it amusing no one bothers to read it considering everyone seems happy to have a go about no one reading the OP...
I read your post... here's your cookie:
It was a good logical post, i agreed with a few things but thought you where off base on a few others.
It was a good logical post, i agreed with a few things but thought you where off base on a few others.
Thanks for posting your opinion.
I mean this is kinda case in point, you're offering an olive branch to the community (or at least Ryan is) and your not interested in why people perceive you the way they do? Not to sound like I'm biting but that's basically proven what I was trying to say.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I appreciate what the OP is trying to do, but honestly I just don't care. I'm happy he's and elite DPSer blah blah blah. I still don't care. Heck I'm in a science ship and was shocked to learn I was running somewhere around 27k dps... and still didn't care.
But the OP is right, the game is about fun, fun for everyone, and if your concept of fun stomps on someone elses concept of fun, then you may want to reconcider.
And that's the issue we're having now with Advanced and Elite. Like I said I run on average a 27k dps, no where near the 30k dps though and probably can't get it without giving up what I concider fun on my science ship, but I can hold my own. Totally unintentionally, but I can do it.
Problem is, I never even know what my DPS was, and a lot of people don't know it either, then roll into a Advanced or an Elite and not only do they get stomped, but cause the entire thing to fail because they simply don't know... and don't care. Which isn't fun for anyone.
Then of course the elitists come out and bash and insult them, and they no longer are having fun, and everyone hates each other.
So while I get what the OP is trying to say, and to a degree I agree with him, I also disagree with him because while the elitists, dps leagues, whatever you want to call them do really good at making people more efficent and better at the game, the majority of the people don't care and it's not how they want to play the game.
Then of course you have the other idiots who think their elite and aren't... and the people who truely are elite and yet stomp on everyone elses fun because they can't get that extra 2k dps out of their ship like they can bring bad names on everyone.
It's a catch 22. Top players tend to ruin the game for those who just want to have fun by being whatevr they want to be, often times unintendedly... while those who just want to have fun by being whatever tend to ruin it for those who just want to be great at it.
It used to be the same issue with PvP ruining PvE and PvE ruining PvP. Now it's elite ruinging it for casual and vice versa.
Comments
I dont find him to be worth less as a person or call him stupid for not caring. It is a game.
A game I decided to play as good as I possibly can. Therefore we organize like-minded people in Channels and play in a (to us) fun environment.
If you are trying to say that is wrong, then I just ask for the same amount of respect towards those that decided to put all the time and effort into this game.
Yes really.
I understand that everyone has different things they care about.
Sucks to be called something you don't think you are doesn't it? Some of ya real fast to call people exploiters and laugh at them they attempt to defend themselves.
Please scrubbies keep posting. The irony is highly amusing.
No one has ever rebuked or demeaned me for how i play... except for Mal, he hit me with about 30k FPS (Fagots per Second). Joking
The worst thing i've ever heard from those a2b FAW scimitards was the backhanded compliment: "You do amazing things with non-optimal ships".
TL DR: no one really cares how or why you play as long as you aren't hurting the team.
Fleet leader Nova Elite
Fleet Leader House of Nova elite
@ren_larreck
Oh man, the Obelisk. 4 beam arrays, with a torpedo launcher fore and aft. That thing can't turn for beans, and they spread the arcs around like that. :mad:
yup its all about marketting and if people dont want to come off as elitist etc etc then a better choice of words is in order.
Anyhow this `butthurt scrub` can do 30k dps on one ship and probably tops their charts which is the irony of the thing. So in retrospect using their wording I guess i must be `carrying their group`even though i am a `scrub`cause i am not one of them.
I like to do pick up groups though i have made a few friends that way. I had considered joining their channels just to find people to group with until i started reading the condescending posts and truly I dont want to be a part of that or be painted with the same brush and be labelled as elistist`... so I guess if I had my druthers.. I would rather be a `butt hurt scrub` if i must have a label I prefer it to being an elitist who sits and copies and pastes dps readouts and makes fun of people if they dont conform to their picture of `a good player`.
It really is insulting and anyone that thinks its not is not being honest with themselves.
In the beginning they start with how it was not in any of their requests to have this frankly ridiculous across the board increase in the health and thus time to kill of the enemies.
In the second half however we are told that essentially the only way to play the endgame at any kind of high level is to go to an absolute bleeding edge DPS build and if you don't then you're doing it wrong...which seems contradictory to the conciliatory spirit of the first half. I do understand that that actually is the limited parameters that the Dev team continues to set by making everything about finishing the big elite queues and even the advanced queues in a certain time limit instead of something like actually creating alternative objectives to complete so I can't really fault that. But the tone seemed to change. Maybe it's because I didn't read the original.
I must compliment the throw reference though, as an old fighting game specialist that brought back memories. No better way to check a turtle sorry Mario.
As far as DPS goes, as a dedicated cruiser Captain on my main I've put a lot of energy into trying to raise my DPS. It's often hard to tell how successful I am with one DPS parser saying 4000, and another saying 8000 with spikes into 12000. (I use ACT, but someone else posted different results). To say nothing for the differences that occur when five people's debuffs are hitting one target. I do just about everything I can with a nonexistent budget everything pretty much coming from grinding and giveaways. I can't afford a tachyokinetic converter, or anything like that. I suppose I'm at fault for preferring phasers to antiprotons and maybe that's something to look at in the future. Before DR I was able to solo one of the generators in Khitomer Accord in a reasonable amount of time cube and all. I've received a lot of help from many players over the years from the team that walked me through my first elite Borg STFs last year (I was mortified to try because I had read the forums and all the rage against noobs who were too weak and had no idea what they were doing plus I didn't think my MkXI Purple gear was good enough) and they ended up being not that hard, to the guy who went over my build and put me on to high level FAW and Attack Pattern Beta.
I don't know where I fit in to the paradigm. All I know is that I went into the first iteration of Delta Rising Crystalline Entity Advanced last week, because as I understood it it was supposed to be identical to old elite, and fought the damn thing down to 33% with my team, and no further. Fourteen times the hp and the regen increased on the last seven million. Forty minutes as people gave up and left. I died twice in the same gear that I had the day before Delta Rising in that time. One of those times was when we were getting swarmed by the also absurd HP Tholians when there were only four people left. Came back after they chopped off two thirds of the things HP and did fine, business as usual.
I don't know about the other queues, I'm not gonna jump on them until I'm level 60, but I hope that first experience wasn't a taste of things to come. I won't be going elite until I'm well down my specialization trees and have MK 14 shields and weapons at least across the board. I'm just gonna take my time.
how do i respond to rude posts like the OP which was extremely rude and belittling. "thank you for insulting the community" ?
What would you like me to say that you would consider better ? I was direct but not rude unlike the OP. I pointed out the posts were rude. Some people argued with me so i quoted the rude bits and suggested politely I might add that if they dont want to come off as elitist that they should reword their posts.
Since the OP is filled with ego and bravado and basically calling others a failure etc and "not trying" among other things how does one respond. I can appreciate he is attempting to provide information and recruit (i think) unfortunately it reads as an insulting put down. I dont think me asking him to reword his posts to be more polite is wrong. I also wont be thanking him for basically insulting people who dont join those channels which is what he is doing. Every player not in that group is basically a scrub and a failure. Pretty sure that is a generalization. If you can't see that and want to ignore it and make excuses for it that is fine, but as a member of that group he is representing you. Perhaps people should choose a more tactful spokesperson?
As far as I know there is no right built or right way to play the game. If I want to fly in with a rainboat then thats my prerogative, is it not? If I want to fly a sci vessel with all torps, thats my call. It might make for a more difficult game, but maybe thats the way I like it.
If someone wants to run an uber-DPS machine so be it.
The ONLY playstyle I do not agree with is one where a player purposefully and wilfully interrupts or disrupts the game for others.
Eliteism isnt a thing, its an attitude. No one is genuinely more elite than any one else, they just think they are.
it would have helped if you had read it, before jumping to conclusions by reading certain keywords.
I was wrong about putting in other peoples quotes without clearly emphasizing on what is my opinion regarding what they said.
And it might still help.
I read it all of it.. it came off as an egostical "look at me" type post labelling people. If you dont want people to be put off by certain words then the solution is to use better words that dont put people off that is the entire point.
obviously you agree with the words otherwise you would not include and use them. You want me to read it I have.. it was .. insulting.
signed "the butthurt scrub" :eek:
You going to hunger for attention now forever
So you're saying everyone is either unique or everyone is the same? That DPS Channels concept cant be done because everyone is his very own singular number? And that binning the results basically is labelling people. Are you a member of a labelling institute they call "fleets"? DPS channels is basically a fleet of like-minded people, that dont need to carry around a label.
Do you think you fit the given description by Sirlin? I wonder why you are so offended by how someone might regard a personality playing the game. Are we not allowed own points of view?
There was nothing insulting in that, unless you projected it into it. Its not even judging whether or not its good to be, what sirlin calls a scrub. Possibly they are the happiest of players? Why are you so offended by that?
If you, due to personal preference don't agree, thats okay, I can live with you having a different opinion, can you as well?
So what other word would u have me remove?
If you call yourself a scrub, that is your own thing. I am hoping that with some help no one has to be one. But if you insist, you are free to choose.
possibly, but not very likely ;D
THIS... what he said! Right above!
I love the fact that the almighty DPS groups ALWAYS SAY...
"We help people!"
...yet they whine when someone who is new to the game, joins an STF via the queue which is the way Cryptic set it up and then wail on about carrying someone.
Irony? Much?
I pug a lot.. an awfull lot, my fleet excelsior can break into 15k dps but thats it for that old ship, my cheat shi....sorry... my Scimitar is right now getting close to the 30k mark. Yes, i have failed a LOT of advanced STF's. Yes i complain to my fleet mates that i failed, but I always post the DPS log into the team chat even after a fail...and a lot of time the low DPS'ers thank me for it.
Now, in a few of those pug matches, some of the knuckle dragging chest beating "elite" was in it, then said they "carried" me?! In a 25k dps scimitar, apparently if your below 30k dps you are now being carried.
riiiiiiiiiiiight....
anyhow i am going to take myself and play now.. i saw the op originally in another thread and made the same comment if I remember rightly.
now I am off to do some pugs cause i enjoy them more then premades due to the random elements that get thrown in. or maybe i will just go play dabo
I just ask people dont join pugs to "carry people" just join them for fun and leave the I am going to save the world attitude at the door
It's true.... we don't have the mechanics in place where we have distinctive roles of DPS/TANK/CAREBEAR. In MMOs where this is a thing, a team environment is just that - a TEAM. If the DPS doesn't do their job or the CB doesnt keep the tank healed or the tank doesn't keep aggro the entire thing can fall apart. In STO, anyone can waltz in, swaggering like they just walked in through the saloon doors and pew-pew until the thing is dead.
Other than the OFFENSIVE skills there's no point in even flying a science ship unless you just like the look of it. In a group you don't have to extend shields or whatnot to keep your tank alive... and a cruiser should be just that, a tank. Capable of taking massive damage and holding aggro, NOT dealing high DPS. Leave that for the rogues who sneak in and whittle the baddie down.
THATS how a balanced game works. Everyone can solo but everyone works better as a team. STO just doesnt have it I remember it once had something similar, back in the beginning, under Atari, but not now. Not even close.
Whether you want to play a fun ship or a good ship is your choice. Joining an Elite queue though with a non elite ship is not.
STAY OUT OF THE ELITES. That's my message to all the "I play solo" players.
If you do 3k and go in advanced or elite, you are a hindrance to your team, meaning you disrupt their game willfully (as you are pretty much dead weight), except you can compensate it with massive CC. however the need of CC is coupled directly to the situation and the DPS of you team members. Hence even if you could use CC, its useless if you are not able to do as everything dies to fast.
If you join a private queue, thats something else, but for a public queue you should do a decent job, and compensate the lack of dps with something other useful in the mission. That can be drawing aggro or CC, but in a good group, neither will be needed (which is a good thing, freedom of choice etc.).
In fact, you can do good CC or good tanking while delivering 10k+ dps (for tanking dps(*threat) is also a requirement. A zombie alone doesnt make a tank). Just a matter of build, and that doesnt need to be minmaxed.
What you want is trinity, and like religion, its an archaic concept which should burn in - a little hypocrism here- hell. But even for that there are channels out there, which enforce such a concept. But not the public queue (which is a good thing), so if you want it, make or join such a channel.
And if the day comes, and the skills get revamped, it will go down the same way DR went down: We damn elitistic high-dps-players will simply adapt, and nothing will really change for us, but the casuals and the ones with frozen mindset (Ryan quoted them as scrubs) will be the ones to suffer, and as so I look forward to that day, when they all cry in agony. Again.
Though I pity the real casuals. The ones with frozen mindset saw the train coming but remained on the tracks.
I've read through most of this thread, stopped here because I think I've read enough. I'm going to try and draw a comparison here, which maybe maybe not will help everyone understand where the issue is, at least from my perspective.
So this example starts with two groups, my ground team and the DPS group. My team is simply a group of people from my fleet who like running ground missions. Now we have posted videos of some of our achievements, hell check my signature if you want to look. However when we post them we're very much rate them as 'something for people to watch and enjoy, maybe take something from if they want/happen to.'
Very occasionally we have used them to make a point, and that has been successful more than not, but on the whole we like to show people what can be done, because we enjoy it and we hope others enjoy the show, and usually it has come across that way in the responses we have had.
Then we have the DPS channels. Same principle in the sense that they're showing off their achievements, however they have a backdrop to contend with which has been exasperated by DR.
Many people have had encounters with DPS people in missions, some good and some bad, but the bad press does get around because it happens frequently. I've had to deal with these issues myself when fleet members have come to me and said that they've had abuse from a member of those channels. Now combine that with the videos and the fact, and this is a fact, that the main goal for you all is DPS, it should be clear why people take the wrong end of the stick.
It's because of attitude. You aren't taken seriously, like now, because while your saying this two things are happening; first is that people who are condescending never get reprimanded as far as anyone can see and secondly DR has essentially said 'DPS or go home' which for a lot of people has made it feel like their builds have been heel-stomped into the ground.
Now if it was our channel that people were being rude in, they'd be out on their hind ends faster than they can contemplate because we don't stand for drama, rudeness to others or anything else that's completely uncalled for.
I suppose in a nut shell, what I'm trying to say is that you guys have a bad image, and you're going to have a hard time shaking that when people have been given reason to resent you. And I'll be brutally honest I've had a rough life in some ways and I'm hardened to a lot of trash, but honestly there's no reason to call someone a scrub or anything else, even if it's meant in jest. I wouldn't call someone weak just because they can't take that, I actually see it as a good thing they've not had reason to toughen up to that kind of thing.
I want you guys to be able to share the same warm reception my team gets, I really do. But it really does come down to image and that's something you guys might want to think about, because from where I'm standing I do truly believe that's the issue.
I know some of your guys and ladies are good folks, so if you cleaned it up I don't think you'd have trouble retaining it after.
Edit: Writing that wiped me out admittedly, hope it comes across okay.
Believe it or not, I pretty much agree with you across the board, with a slight exception. What you have outlined means that pugs are dead as far as elite queues go. As for myself, I'll reserve those for when I cruise with my feet because, although my Romulan Tac officer in her Scim has pretty decent DPS, my Fed Eng in her Galaxy X does not nor shall she ever have. It's not her role to toss out massive DPS. It's her role to take the heat and damage while those with the DPS do their jobs.
Whether you like it or not, the trinity concept is a solid one that works. What you're promoting is the very definition of elitism; and not in a good way. You're essentially stating "The elite queues are ours, kids. Stay out!"
That, simply, just won't do. If you feel this way then i suggest it is you who avoid pugs in elite queues. Still, I suggest the same thing for those who can't pull large DPS; stay out of elite pugs - go in with a strong team or fleetmates instead.
^^ So much this....^^ Cryptic has done little but to pander to a select few with DR, it seems. A shame, really. This means that every ship and every player will be forced into a cookie-cutter form to play. Such a shame...
The trinity can work, but it is not the be-all and end-all of teaming. And there are other options that don't mean "stay out". In fact, the point of the thread has been the opposite, just poorly expressed.
Personally, I think the world of game design will be much improved when the trinity is as obsolete and ignored as svga monitors, and teamwork based mechanics exist that reward multitasking, not just pew-pew DPs. I think Borg disconnected is a decent step in the right direction, where controls and stealth and a tank work in place of damage to allow freeing the good Borg. Its not perfect, but it's a good first step.
you need java. install java and just run CombatLogReader.jar file.
The vast majority of people play this game to have fun.
Your version of the game is not the same version that a captain of a Sciences vessel has.
Many people truly love to tank and are not bothered about having 50K DPS.
Your group is coming across way to aggressive, to the point of forcing people to play your style.
I have seem countless posts from the DPS group just insulting people instead of replaying about the subject.
The attacks on DEVs and other people in community are quite shameful and has severely hurt your groups image.
What you don't understand is you cannot tell people how to play the game.
I chat with other fleet leaders and compare notes often to to see how as a fleet to keep people playing.
What I learned is fun must be defined by each person one how they want to play the game.
DPS might be your thing and I personally find dishing out high DPS to easy.
Helping others, giving to others much of my game time, and not dying in any missions much harder than DPS.
You may be surrounded with DPS game style individuals and think that its the entire world.
What other people see is thats is your world and your game style and not theirs.
Fun must be defined by each person one how they want to play the game and not the DPS Channel.
There's 2 reasons for them:
A: Minimum standard that if you form a group from people in that channel, you know everyone should achieve in both tactical understanding and damage potential
B: A higher bar to strive for, to improve your configuration and play-style.
Nothing more.
If you're testing, just let people know you're testing so when that escort you were flying only does 16k but you joined from the 30k channel, it's not a WHY U BRING THAT surprise. The main reason that bringing a lower than advertised ship is an issue is solely because everyone's trying to improve... and as these stf's are a team effort, a weak link is still a weak link.
There's another factor that's been touched on. Efficiency.
If I, or anyone else, can gather a 5 player 30k team.... we can finish a "tour" of all the borg missions previously on elite, now on advanced, in the same time-frame that a pug group would finish ISA and be queued for another STF if they stuck together. It's just a reality of a fixed amount of enemies/health vs the damage capacity a good team will put out.
That's more dilith, more EC from junk to vendor, more BNP's, and more marks. Then you can go PVP or grind on something else or go get another beer and banter with fleet-mates on teamspeak.
Here is an example of someone who does not read the OP. They skimmed through looking for keywords and when they found them they post a reply arguing against the strawmen in their head.
Let me make a few things clear to you Blake.
1. Your PvE bootcamp was judge by the whole community to be a farce and a con. stop trying to make yourself relevant again.
2. No one is forcing anyone else to play a certain way. We've stated multiple times, over and over again, that we understand people play the game for fun. you seem to just skip over that part due to not understanding, either intentional or just ignorance. I believe you are intentionally cherry picking through our posts just so you can rant at your strawmen.
3. Tanking a is great, tanking is about AGGRO management. In order to have AGGRO in this game you need to do DPS. it's that simple. If you are a tank and cannot grab and hold aggro then you are useless. There is no point to being able to survive anything an STF can throw at you if they NPCs are not shooting at you.
4. if "dishing out high DPS is easy" then everyone would be in the 30k DPS channel and we could just delete DPS 10k and 20k.
5. The most important thing in a PvE queue is FINISHING the queue. being able to live through it is secondary to actually killing things.
6. People can have as much fun as they want in solo content. As soon as they click the "join queue" button then they have to become a productive member of the team. That means DPS, CC, Debuffs, healing, and AGGRO tanking.
turtles and "just for fun" types and gimmicks need to stick to the Normal queues.
I didn't say anything about that in my post.
Edit: You may not be answering me, but I find it amusing no one bothers to read it considering everyone seems happy to have a go about no one reading the OP...
I read your post... here's your cookie:
It was a good logical post, i agreed with a few things but thought you where off base on a few others.
Thanks for posting your opinion.
I mean this is kinda case in point, you're offering an olive branch to the community (or at least Ryan is) and your not interested in why people perceive you the way they do? Not to sound like I'm biting but that's basically proven what I was trying to say.
I appreciate what the OP is trying to do, but honestly I just don't care. I'm happy he's and elite DPSer blah blah blah. I still don't care. Heck I'm in a science ship and was shocked to learn I was running somewhere around 27k dps... and still didn't care.
But the OP is right, the game is about fun, fun for everyone, and if your concept of fun stomps on someone elses concept of fun, then you may want to reconcider.
And that's the issue we're having now with Advanced and Elite. Like I said I run on average a 27k dps, no where near the 30k dps though and probably can't get it without giving up what I concider fun on my science ship, but I can hold my own. Totally unintentionally, but I can do it.
Problem is, I never even know what my DPS was, and a lot of people don't know it either, then roll into a Advanced or an Elite and not only do they get stomped, but cause the entire thing to fail because they simply don't know... and don't care. Which isn't fun for anyone.
Then of course the elitists come out and bash and insult them, and they no longer are having fun, and everyone hates each other.
So while I get what the OP is trying to say, and to a degree I agree with him, I also disagree with him because while the elitists, dps leagues, whatever you want to call them do really good at making people more efficent and better at the game, the majority of the people don't care and it's not how they want to play the game.
Then of course you have the other idiots who think their elite and aren't... and the people who truely are elite and yet stomp on everyone elses fun because they can't get that extra 2k dps out of their ship like they can bring bad names on everyone.
It's a catch 22. Top players tend to ruin the game for those who just want to have fun by being whatevr they want to be, often times unintendedly... while those who just want to have fun by being whatever tend to ruin it for those who just want to be great at it.
It used to be the same issue with PvP ruining PvE and PvE ruining PvP. Now it's elite ruinging it for casual and vice versa.