Just want to say, I enjoyed the OP and have enjoyed watching some of the videos posted by you guys. It has actually encouraged me to think more seriously about how I approach my build, and hopefully tackle elites in the future, lame as it sounds.
Look, Ill agree that if you knowingly join an elite DPS group and cant pull the DPS needed for that group, if its your first time, bad on them. If you do it again, bad on you.
However, and please dont take too great offence to this, you elite dps machines play your game the way you want and well leave you alone. If someone joins a dps channel, ASK THEM what their average DPS is. If they cant tell you or its too low, politely tell them. Or, better yet, HELP them to achieve higher dps if that is their wish.
But dont come here and post stuff like its our game gtfo if you cant ultra dps! which, essentially, is the just of what is being said here. If you dont want people joining your channel make it invite only. I surely wont be asking to get in your club any time soon because, hey, I couldnt give two rats azzes about uber dps.
Good day, sir.
How the DPS channels work.
There is an open channel called DPS-Public. This channel is not for callout or LFGs/LFMs. it's not an alternative to PESTF. It's sole purpose is to facilitate entry into the higher tier channels.
The higher channels are invite only.
Lets make a hypothetical toon: hugh@laurie is trying to get into the DPS channels. he installs combatlogreader and parses himself in ISA. He gets 15k DPS. great. he now clicks the "Upload" button on the parser and his score is uploaded to the DPS League.
Later one of the admins will open up the DPS League Admin Tool. He'll see a line that says: @laurie, 15k DPS, channel 10k. The admin will then send an invite for the 10k DPS channel to hugh@laurie.
Hugh@laurie wont get any notifications or popups, but if he goes into chat settings > channels he'll see the DPS-10000 in his channel list. he will have to highlight the channel and click the join button.
if he ever parses higher than 15k then he would get invited to the higher tier channels like 20k, 30k or 50k. So if he gets 33k DPS on one run and uploads his score, he'll see an invite to 20k and 30k in his channel list.
I could care less what people think of me. I'm not part of the DPS league to be nice, flowerly, and vomiting rainbows everywhere. I do go out of my way to help people when asked but i wont hold anyone's hand or spoon feed them.
There are thousands of players in the DPS League, it's unrealistic to expect every single one of them to go through a personality re-adjustment when they join: "From this point forth you will all become Nice Guys so that the people on the forums will like us."
The reality is that you are going to get every type of personality and character in the DPS channels. some will be nice, others will be *******s. Q help you if you are the type that gets offended easily and you run into Mal.
I don't know why you think it's some kind of tight, orderly organization. it's a very loose grouping of players who owe nothing to anyone.
Since i just mentioned him earlier, i'll give Mal as an example. He is The House MD of the DPS league. Cranky and insulting, offensive to the extreme, but he will literally spend HOURS helping you if you ask him.
That's the DPS League, you have to take the good with the bad.
Two things. First, what you've outlined there seems prefectly reasonable. I was unde the (mis)assmuption that the OPs complaint reached elite STF pug queues.
Ran three queues with the 10k crowd, two ISA's and one CCA - no fails, and my DPS jumped to 31k with my JHDC. This game is fun again.
Next time I get some time I want to try Battle of Korfez, maybe this time I will get to finish it instead of just getting to the last ship and failing miserably.
I will add again that the queues were perfectly fine before DR - the changes were terrible. Blaming folks that want to group together and not fail is not going to solve this issue. Neither is nitpicking about how they communicate, elitist or not, the cold fact is that now in advance you bring the DPS or you hinder the team. Nothing wrong with a sci boat, I own plenty that do more than 10k in a pug - it's not hard, and they are still fun.
I could care less what people think of me. I'm not part of the DPS league to be nice, flowerly, and vomiting rainbows everywhere. I do go out of my way to help people when asked but i wont hold anyone's hand or spoon feed them.
There are thousands of players in the DPS League, it's unrealistic to expect every single one of them to go through a personality re-adjustment when they join: "From this point forth you will all become Nice Guys so that the people on the forums will like us."
The reality is that you are going to get every type of personality and character in the DPS channels. some will be nice, others will be *******s. Q help you if you are the type that gets offended easily and you run into Mal.
I don't know why you think it's some kind of tight, orderly organization. it's a very loose grouping of players who owe nothing to anyone.
Since i just mentioned him earlier, i'll give Mal as an example. He is The House MD of the DPS league. Cranky and insulting, offensive to the extreme, but he will literally spend HOURS helping you if you ask him.
That's the DPS League, you have to take the good with the bad.
You know I totally agree with you, you should have to change your personality, and don't have to. You're there for one thing and one thing only... dps and getting better... and I'm totally cool and in agreement with that.
But yeah, the OP is kind of saying the exact opposite here, trying to justify it's existance and close the gap between the DPS elitist and the rest of the community. To which you've actually made a better argement against then I ever could.
If you can't hack it or don't want to hack it, don't show up. Now there's a thin line between no caring (which I agree with) and being a total TRIBBLE$ and belittling people who aren't at your level or don't care to be at your level.
So I totally agree with you, you shouldn't have to care, that's not what you're there for. You don't belittle, you're not an TRIBBLE$, you just don't care about them, and that's the way it should be. You'll help out, but they got to do the work, again that's how it should be.
But when you have some jerk demanding that every player must get better and be just like them, and use their exact same cookie cutter build, or else gtfo of the game as a whole... that's where the issues start on the elistist end.
Of course you have the exact opposite too. Casuals who think "playing the game how I want it to be played" means going into an elite and bringing the rest of the group down because they think they're awesom and they're horrible, then belittling and calling the others names because they wonder why you're even there.
I mean this is kinda case in point, you're offering an olive branch to the community (or at least Ryan is) and your not interested in why people perceive you the way they do? Not to sound like I'm biting but that's basically proven what I was trying to say.
I tried to explain they dont understand or want to. This is fine .. what I find unfine is that they get upset and seem to not like the way they are perceived. I am not new but I have not partaken in the community but just from reading a couple of posts I got a not great impression. As i said I had considered joining the channels but the posts turned me off. Not because I am particularly offended I just think people should respect one another despite it all and I find it well not respectful.
Anyhow I guess they dont want to change their image okay .. fine but then dont complain about the negative comments that occur as a result of it. You can't have it both ways if you want to look down on people and show them no respect dont expect to be given any respect. It really is that simple.
I tried to explain they dont understand or want to. This is fine .. what I find unfine is that they get upset and seem to not like the way they are perceived. I am not new but I have not partaken in the community but just from reading a couple of posts I got a not great impression. As i said I had considered joining the channels but the posts turned me off. Not because I am particularly offended I just think people should respect one another despite it all and I find it well not respectful.
Anyhow I guess they dont want to change their image okay .. fine but then dont complain about the negative comments that occur as a result of it. You can't have it both ways if you want to look down on people and show them no respect dont expect to be given any respect. It really is that simple.
I kind of see it from both sides, but I'll admit I'm not a member of the dps community.
First I kind of agree with two things from them. One they are a community who find it fun to min/max and a community that find it fun to not fail queues because someone showed up who shouldn't have been there in the first place. I can respect that too. Lets be honest, there are as many "casuals" who are demanding that the game revolve around them and their 2.5k ships as their are people demanding that the game revolve around their 30k ships.
So really there isn't any need to change their image. If you don't find it fun min/maxing and just want to play the game regardless of your dps, then don't join the channel, but don't show up in elites with your 2.5k then wonder why people are complaining that you ruined their fun.
On the other hand, elitists in general have a bad rep and it didn't just appear out of no where. You have a good size minority that simply belittles anyone that shows up that doesn't have the exact same build and the exact same DPS that they do. Heck I've seen elitists belittle people because they don't have cookie cutter builds, even when they can out dps them.
Then you have the people that simply think they're great, and they're not, and can't understand all the hosility coming at them from both sides of the fence.
So I don't know... if you just want to play and have fun and not care about dps, you shouldn't even be in the DPS channel or doing elites more then once if you can't compete. On the other hand, just because you can do 30k dps in a made up game in a made up world isn't something that means you're a better person then someone else and warrent you belittling them. It just means your priorities are different then someone elses.
But don't expect the elitists to suddenly open up their arms to everyone and sing kumbahya with you, when you refuse to listen to their helpful suggestions and don't equate you're type of fun with theirs.
Pugging is only for normal now because it increases the chance of more revenue for cryptic(think of the shareholders, Bob!).
Now the crazy thing about these elite channels is how they use to recruit out of pugs via parsing. I ended up with invites to 10 and 20k dps channels, but I never used them. I didn't mind carrying new players through old elite content. I felt pride when a stranger would thank me for saving his butt, or answering questions about my build.
Without places to recruit, assuming advance elite channels are all private matches, how will you deal with attrition, like burnout. How will you recruit?
I wish all that 2.5k dps ppl would join the normal queues, but they even hit on elite. its annoying. I dont even know how to make such a low dps ship...I can crit that on ground -.- they say its just a fun build, nothing serious... my fun build is a fed ship with elite phasers to let it look authentic, and it does 20k dps.
its incredible fun to deal 30 or 40k dps and let all the enemys pop in seconds while listening to 50s swing music lol :cool: most ppl dont have a sense for that...so haters gona hate.
one last thing...when Im in a hurry and want to get the daily mark bonus I fly into normal queues...I found ppl in BDN who were waiting at the spawn, letting others do the work, and shoot a bit at the end to avoind the penalty. when I stop playing the mission and park my ship at their side, they suddenly move and start playing. once I had to escort such a douchbag to the battlefield. hope this wont spread...
I wish all that 2.5k dps ppl would join the normal queues, but they even hit on elite. its annoying. I dont even know how to make such a low dps ship...I can crit that on ground -.- they say its just a fun build, nothing serious... my fun build is a fed ship with elite phasers to let it look authentic, and it does 20k dps.
its incredible fun to deal 30 or 40k dps and let all the enemys pop in seconds while listening to 50s swing music lol :cool: most ppl dont have a sense for that...so haters gona hate.
one last thing...when Im in a hurry and want to get the daily mark bonus I fly into normal queues...I found ppl in BDN who were waiting at the spawn, letting others do the work, and shoot a bit at the end to avoind the penalty. when I stop playing the mission and park my ship at their side, they suddenly move and start playing. once I had to escort such a douchbag to the battlefield. hope this wont spread...
They will, they can't handle elite, let alone advance. But every coin has two sides sir, the players with potiential to learn and grow, won't. The game will die.
I have question because I'm stuk at 12.5k dps with ny science toon in vesta.
Did ever a science toon reach the 30k dps ?
Right build, right ship, right consoles and right DOffs and I wouldn't be surprised. Like I said just TRIBBLE around I've gotten to 27k.
The trick for me at least, is forget the idea that energy weapons are king, and go for exotic damage and torps. Not saying you can't do that with energy weapons, but in science ships it's damn hard to do and you're not playing to your strengths.
The question that needs to be asked seroiusly by some is, do you WANT the science ship on your team to get to 30k, or would you prefer them to be slightly less, but using their abilities to benefit the team as a whole.
I can do less dps, but keep them pretty much locked down and doing less damage to the team, as well as CCing them into nice pretty groups, or healing other team members.
The fleet I run with, they tend to want me to do less DPS, and use abilities to strength the other ships, but I can see others insisting that the science ship must have 30k dps, no questions ask... especially in STO where DPS is king. To me that's the closed minded elitism that I despise, the ones that if you're not doing X DPS no matter what else you're doing, you suck, but most good players understand roles and appreciate you using them... as long as doing so benefits the team and not your own personal ego.
Right build, right ship, right consoles and right DOffs and I wouldn't be surprised. Like I said just TRIBBLE around I've gotten to 27k.
The trick for me at least, is forget the idea that energy weapons are king, and go for exotic damage and torps. Not saying you can't do that with energy weapons, but in science ships it's damn hard to do and you're not playing to your strengths.
The question that needs to be asked seroiusly by some is, do you WANT the science ship on your team to get to 30k, or would you prefer them to be slightly less, but using their abilities to benefit the team as a whole.
I can do less dps, but keep them pretty much locked down and doing less damage to the team, as well as CCing them into nice pretty groups, or healing other team members.
The fleet I run with, they tend to want me to do less DPS, and use abilities to strength the other ships, but I can see others insisting that the science ship must have 30k dps, no questions ask... especially in STO where DPS is king. To me that's the closed minded elitism that I despise, the ones that if you're not doing X DPS no matter what else you're doing, you suck, but most good players understand roles and appreciate you using them... as long as doing so benefits the team and not your own personal ego.
If fact you make the point of my question.
I love science toon and science ship. I love science abilities a lot more than anything else. But in thins game is no point for all of that it just about dps or you are TRIBBLE and not only by other player but by cryptic too. Whit the new contents if you don't do high dps you can't acces to the most reward stuff no matter if you debuf as hell no matter if you heal as a doctor under steroid, no matter if you cc like a politician with golden balls. It's only dps.
And because i don't like play tactical I start to feel hopeless and lose motivation to play this game.
I feel a bit defensive in this thread. Ingame and outside the game I really have been grateful of what these people do and how they share it to all and I also think they have done well to do what they do, no awe, just a sort of congratulations you are better at the damage dealing than most.
But, intentional or not, some of the posts the last week or so have been very condescending and arrogant, suggesting others are inferior and so shouldn't be allowed to play certain content. I agree if someone can't do advanced, elite is not for them, but we all have to start somewhere and so all we can do if someone isn't as powerful is help them, or consider it a greater challenge, adapt and overcome, fair enough some missions will be failed, but the game is going nowhere, I hope, lol, so we can always retry, again and again and again and again
I love science toon and science ship. I love science abilities a lot more than anything else. But in thins game is no point for all of that it just about dps or you are TRIBBLE and not only by other player but by cryptic too. Whit the new contents if you don't do high dps you can't acces to the most reward stuff no matter if you debuf as hell no matter if you heal as a doctor under steroid, no matter if you cc like a politician with golden balls. It's only dps.
And because i don't like play tactical I start to feel hopeless and lose motivation to play this game.
Yes and no. Because quite honestly my CC is my DPs, I can usually double dip in the new content without much of an issue. In Borg Disconnected I admit I tend to be one of the flyers, flying between the points rescuing the disconnected borg, but there is nothing better for my teammates then a well placed grav well, or shutting down a borg cube when they begin to get overwhelmed... so no I don't do tons of DPS on a Borg Disconnected usually..
But I can and have, including to the point where I've done better then said escorts and cruisers. Again you kind of have to know your ship and your build, but it's certainly possible.
Other queues are easier however.
My own problems tend to be with pugs. Lack of communicatoin and lack of teamwork, and possible a ship that isn't up to snuff has ruined every PUG I've tried, but that's because I don't have the DPS to carry someone else.
I'll be blunt here though... the majority of the people I see flying Science Ships, have no idea how to fly a science ship. They build them like a cruiser or an escort, then complain about how Science Ships suck. That I believe is where the DPS channel could benefit a lot of people.. but if can also hurt.
If you don't know how to fly a science ship learn the ship... you need to fly it as a science ship, and not a mini-cruiser or an escorts bad step-cousin. But then I've seen so called DPS kings tell science captains really, really bad advice because they think one size fits all.
Here is an example of someone who does not read the OP. They skimmed through looking for keywords and when they found them they post a reply arguing against the strawmen in their head.
Let me make a few things clear to you Blake.
1. Your PvE bootcamp was judge by the whole community to be a farce and a con. stop trying to make yourself relevant again.
2. No one is forcing anyone else to play a certain way. We've stated multiple times, over and over again, that we understand people play the game for fun. you seem to just skip over that part due to not understanding, either intentional or just ignorance. I believe you are intentionally cherry picking through our posts just so you can rant at your strawmen.
3. Tanking a is great, tanking is about AGGRO management. In order to have AGGRO in this game you need to do DPS. it's that simple. If you are a tank and cannot grab and hold aggro then you are useless. There is no point to being able to survive anything an STF can throw at you if they NPCs are not shooting at you.
4. if "dishing out high DPS is easy" then everyone would be in the 30k DPS channel and we could just delete DPS 10k and 20k.
5. The most important thing in a PvE queue is FINISHING the queue. being able to live through it is secondary to actually killing things.
6. People can have as much fun as they want in solo content. As soon as they click the "join queue" button then they have to become a productive member of the team. That means DPS, CC, Debuffs, healing, and AGGRO tanking.
turtles and "just for fun" types and gimmicks need to stick to the Normal queues.
See, here is where you completely killed yourself, as not trying to come off as a so called baddie!
To say people cannot and, should not ever be able to have fun in advance with those types of builds, is a pure sign of elitist attitude.
And to the OP, really!
You all are now trying to have someone, act as your personal PR guy?
You all must be getting really desperate!
And, while you all might not have been the only factor in Cryptic's decision, to how the changes to advanced/elite STFs went over, you did however have a part in it!
When they noted all of the bragging, videos, posting, threads done by you people, well it's no wonder they felt the need to up the requirements, as you gave them the impression that this is normal and, that many people follow suite or, at least they should/must!
Politics, does nothing good really for anyone, except the politician and, those who side with them.
Yes and no. Because quite honestly my CC is my DPs, I can usually double dip in the new content without much of an issue. In Borg Disconnected I admit I tend to be one of the flyers, flying between the points rescuing the disconnected borg, but there is nothing better for my teammates then a well placed grav well, or shutting down a borg cube when they begin to get overwhelmed... so no I don't do tons of DPS on a Borg Disconnected usually..
But I can and have, including to the point where I've done better then said escorts and cruisers. Again you kind of have to know your ship and your build, but it's certainly possible.
Other queues are easier however.
My own problems tend to be with pugs. Lack of communicatoin and lack of teamwork, and possible a ship that isn't up to snuff has ruined every PUG I've tried, but that's because I don't have the DPS to carry someone else.
I'll be blunt here though... the majority of the people I see flying Science Ships, have no idea how to fly a science ship. They build them like a cruiser or an escort, then complain about how Science Ships suck. That I believe is where the DPS channel could benefit a lot of people.. but if can also hurt.
If you don't know how to fly a science ship learn the ship... you need to fly it as a science ship, and not a mini-cruiser or an escorts bad step-cousin. But then I've seen so called DPS kings tell science captains really, really bad advice because they think one size fits all.
I'm totaly agree with you. I play science in science ship since the beta of the game and I know all what you explain.
But how many player know that ? and how many player see the game only by the dps ? that the point yes i could play with only CC, support and debuf on my science but at the end It will be usefull or powerfull as a full dps tactical toon ? we know it's no.
Seriously i don't even remember how nany time at the end of the stf i was insult by player because my dps was low even if i heal all of them, CC, debut everything for they can dps the maximun they can. how many times i save the stf with a good placed GW ?
But none of that matter anymore just because of the dps run in the game.
I'm totaly agree with you. I play science in science ship since the beta of the game and I know all what you explain.
But how many player know that ? and how many player see the game only by the dps ? that the point yes i could play with only CC, support and debuf on my science but at the end It will be usefull or powerfull as a full dps tactical toon ? we know it's no.
Seriously i don't even remember how nany time at the end of the stf i was insult by player because my dps was low even if i heal all of them, CC, debut everything for they can dps the maximun they can. how many times i save the stf with a good placed GW ?
But none of that matter anymore just because of the dps run in the game.
Oh I hear you, and I agree. There are too many people in STO.. heck in every MMO I've ever played and I've played a lot of them, that don't see the benefit of non-dps sometimes. Heck I've sucked enemy ships dry to the point that they just sat there, and been told I'm a leech (which I just realized was kind of punny) because I didn't do the same DPS as the rest of the team.
Same thing happens a lot though on my cruiser-tank character as well.
But I don't think that's necessarily the hallmark of a min-maxer. I think that's the hallmark of a super bad player who doesn't know the game as well as they think they do. I've had the exact opposite of your example too where I've done all that, and been creditted with saving the STF because someone else made a mistake and my CC and heals literally let them make up for it.
So I don't know. The idea that top dps is what makes a good player has been a falicy in games since the first MMO started scoring raids, by not taking into account healing and damage mitigation, and only scoring it for DPS. Since then it's propegated across all games, and bad players, being bad players, have no idea and will have no idea, but need something to boost their fragile egos and make it seem like they know what they're doing, even when they're only using a build they copy and pasted off the internet and have no idea the mechanics behind it.
Bad players are bad players, regardless of their DPS. Some people refuse to see that, and my view is TRIBBLE them, I don't want anything to do with them. A proper team of proper players understand what each person brings to their team, and they understand how switching out one player for another, even with a similiar build may effect the team positively or negatively.
Sometimes I swear though that DPS parcers have been the bane of MMOs. Too many people see them as the end all, say all of MMO end game, and don't see them as they should be... a tool to help people get better.
Oh I hear you, and I agree. There are too many people in STO.. heck in every MMO I've ever played and I've played a lot of them, that don't see the benefit of non-dps sometimes. Heck I've sucked enemy ships dry to the point that they just sat there, and been told I'm a leech (which I just realized was kind of punny) because I didn't do the same DPS as the rest of the team.
Same thing happens a lot though on my cruiser-tank character as well.
But I don't think that's necessarily the hallmark of a min-maxer. I think that's the hallmark of a super bad player who doesn't know the game as well as they think they do. I've had the exact opposite of your example too where I've done all that, and been creditted with saving the STF because someone else made a mistake and my CC and heals literally let them make up for it.
So I don't know. The idea that top dps is what makes a good player has been a falicy in games since the first MMO started scoring raids, by not taking into account healing and damage mitigation, and only scoring it for DPS. Since then it's propegated across all games, and bad players, being bad players, have no idea and will have no idea, but need something to boost their fragile egos and make it seem like they know what they're doing, even when they're only using a build they copy and pasted off the internet and have no idea the mechanics behind it.
Bad players are bad players, regardless of their DPS. Some people refuse to see that, and my view is TRIBBLE them, I don't want anything to do with them. A proper team of proper players understand what each person brings to their team, and they understand how switching out one player for another, even with a similiar build may effect the team positively or negatively.
Sometimes I swear though that DPS parcers have been the bane of MMOs. Too many people see them as the end all, say all of MMO end game, and don't see them as they should be... a tool to help people get better.
I think the problem is how they "think" and build STO.
Because in every other game i played no-dps toons as healer and debuffer are always welcome and need in a team ( a least one of them).
In STO before dr I saw a complete team with only tactical toon and ship ruch ISE even faster than a team with science toon/ship. And it was done so fast nobodies die.
I saw that happen too in the Bug Hunt elite. I was the only science with only tactical player. At the end we did it faster than i never did and it was so fast I need to heal only myself sometimes.
The problem come from here. Only full dps = easier and faster. Had some science or engineer and it go less fast.
I think the problem is how they "think" and build STO.
Because in every other game i played no-dps toons as healer and debuffer are always welcome and need in a team ( a least one of them).
In STO before dr I saw a complete team with only tactical toon and ship ruch ISE even faster than a team with science toon/ship. And it was done so fast nobodies die.
I saw that happen too in the Bug Hunt elite. I was the only science with only tactical player. At the end we did it faster than i never did and it was so fast I need to heal only myself sometimes.
The problem come from here. Only full dps = easier and faster. Had some science or engineer and it go less fast.
Yeah I agree, DR did a number on non-DPS. With timed queues and ships that had their HPs increased exponentially, it has become even more imperative that you have a certain high level of DPS.
I was actually told by someone to let them die because in the end my DPS on target was more important then the couple of seconds of loss that would come from him dying.
It proved accurate too which is kind of sad.
So yeah STO has always been DPS centered, simply because honestly I don't think the devs know how to do anything else, and DPS is always the easiest thing to cater to. So to make things "harder" they don't increase the AI, they don't increase the damage a ship does to you really, no they just add a timer and a huge number of HPs to their ship and claim it to be harder.
But back on topic rant off, there are times though when tanking and CC are highly useful, it's just honestly mostly in queues that no one plays simply because it requires more thinking and planning then what many players want to do in this game. It's easier to grab a cut and paste cookie cutter build, point and shoot and hit 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 on their keyboards then to actually think what they need to do.
Which is also why science ships are concidered by many people to be "underpowered and weak". Cookie cutter builds don't work on them, you need to think your way through them to honestly be the top of the top. Aux2Bat don't work, we don't have the engineer and weapon slots and tac console slots to be cannon and FAW boats and our science skills require timeing.
See, here is where you completely killed yourself, as not trying to come off as a so called baddie!
To say people cannot and, should not ever be able to have fun in advance with those types of builds, is a pure sign of elitist attitude.
Yeah, and I also demand to be accepted to the 100m worldcup-races. Unfortunately there are stupid rules in place which prevent me from that. So I either play by the rules (in this case from cryptic) or leave.
Thats not elitistic, thats just reality. If you are a hindrance to your team, you shouldnt play it. I already said that you can offset lower dps with CC (or even heal sometimes), but in the end its the ones with DPS that finishes the mission, as a mission is only over when everything is dead. One of the rare queues where this isnt the case is azure nebula, which however is timegated.
You were so entusiastic when justifying the punishment for the so called "exploiters", yet here you shift the blame to us again and dont adress cryptic, who is at fault. We are just stating the obvious, if you do not recognize the obvious, then you should work about your reality sensors.
Lol this whole thing is just about ppl being pissed because someone is telling them they shouldnt/cant do advanced and since noone liked being told what to do they bark back and this whole thing keeps going. I think its cause they hate math and dont wanno do it themselfed lr they dont trust the parses or whatever.
Pls realize in fact its the mission thats made by cryptic that requires you doing more than you did. dont kill the messenger if you dont like the message. Thank cryptic for their grand new advanced difficulty in all its glory^^
The problem with STO is that the people who say it is too hard, are the people cannot be bothered to follow the strategy/tactics needed to win.
If you need a sword to beat a fantasy mob and bring a dagger, and that dagger if used by the very best player, still would not be enough to win....then you by bringing that dagger suck, are a bad player, a scrub, and a TROLL.....Do NOT come to queues unprepared with the expectation that someone will earn the rewards for you....Just because you play the game does NOT mean I have to get the rewards for you so you can have your good time.
All you people that want to slam the DPS channels, why not try slamming all the losers who want things to be just given to them with no effort....They show up with no clue how to complete successfully the mission they want rewards from....They show up in ships that cannont succeed in doing the content...and they expect to be carried if they cannot do the content, and they expect Cryptic to change it so they dont have to utilize their brain in the least little bit. This is the problem in general...STO has become a game for the simplistic, just click a button, and you are done.
Have people forgotten what STFs were like when STFs were the only endgame content? When pugging it was exactly the same as it is now....If you pugged and the pug could not be bothered to follow the strat, your team lost.....When people would queue up with shuttles because they thought it was funny to watch people fail. How is that any different with someone queue up for Korfez with a sub10k dps ship, which has a time limit for you to kill 8 ships in the first part. Every mission in Korfez you have some type of timer like activity happening and you consistently see people queuing up without the proper equipment so to speak to accomplish the mission. Yet, somehow, by calling them jerks, or names, people on their White Horses come in all Paladin like, to defend the sorry gamers who are queuing up unprepared for the content.
If you queue up for a mission that is marked elite and you have trouble with all advanced or even normal content....YOU are a TROLL...make no mistake....You will be queuing up for content you have NO business queuing up for, because you cannot do the content leading to it.
In math they dont start you off with multiplication and division....why not...because you have to build from the foundation first, learn addition and subtraction before you move on to more advanced concepts. Same thing here, people queue up without having a foundation expecting to succeed, and that expectation is idiotic.
Please note, at no time did I say that having TRIBBLE tons of dps is the only way. However, if you have no plan, or believe that your plan will not be followed even if you try to formulate it with the players you will be teaming with, how else are you goign to succeed? So, you are planning on playing a tank and aggroing everything around the heavy assualts in korfez....so that dps ships can focus on the primary targets...tell people....but be prepared to keep aggro and survive...otherwise, just stick to dps'ing the main targets to help take it down
I could personally care less about the way people play, but I do have one expectation, that I think is normal...If I join a public queue, then I should be able to have the reasonable expectation of the players joining it with me of having the capability not only with their gear, but with the the understanding of the encounter to succeed....It doesnt take long to ask in channels what encounters are like, or looking it up on the net, or even telling the team this is your first time, and need points or help....on the other hand not being prepared in anyway shape or form, just plain being lazy, and not wanting to play the game, and personally showing up like that just ruins my experience.
Telling the team this is your first time isnt hard, but does require someone to drop their pride that they cannot meet some strangers expectations....Well, guess what, the DPS channels help with that nicely....They provide a benchmark for me to strive for, and a somewhat good guage one what I can expect out of the people who come from whatever channel.
AT some points there have been some pretty crappy people, who blame things on others, but got that in STOmasters, got that in pestf, got that before any of these channels existed...You will always have people who refuse to be responsible for their own actions, who will blame others.
I am calling it as a see it, most in the public queues have shown an utter lack of regard for their fellow players, thats been my experience based on their game player. Does that mean that everyone in the public queue is at fault, no....it in no way means that. What it does mean is that 9 out of 10 public queue groups, you will have some lazy, no good scrub, who really doesnt want to be bothered with upping their game to the current level of content, and is not bothered by causing your to fail and have a cooldown timer solely because they or others with them are unprepared. Personally, I think Cryptic should up the normal content to be in line with the Advanced, and Elite content.
By that last comment, what I mean, is that normal should have the same mechanics of failure as Advance and Elite, so that it trains the players into the proper way to achieve success at higher levels of difficulty. After all, everyone should have the expectation that they can succeed at normal content. Advanced content should be completedly successfully if more effort is put in, but it should be harder than normal, and if you do not put in more effort you DESERVE to FAIL. Elite content should be failed quickly if all the effort you put into is the same as you did for normal....but all the content from normal to advance to elite should have pretty much the same conditions to fail, just maybe more severe for more difficult content.
BDN----if you dont protect all lanes and get some of the disconnected from each lane, say 2 atleast 2-4 disconnected in each lane you fail.....In BDA, it can go from 2-4 to 4-6 to reach the failure....see same mechanics, just harder...instead you can roll through BDN because thats what the 'Casual player of STO wants....We dont want any effort just give us our reward, (as a general rule of thumb, realizing one size does not fit all)
But really if the causual player really wanted to have it easy, and truly be casaul...they would figure out how to get high dps, because that high dps makes it so you have more time to just sit around and do whatever, without having to spend hours grinding out mission after mission after mission...oh wait thats an exploit if you do too much dmg too quickly to grind through the content because of poor QA...sorry, guess casual should just continue to grind for 6 months and get further behind.
PS-Oh DPS Channel admin, I still need my 30000 channel invite please been 7+ days......Oh 35k dps, narcine mk12 gear, highest R&D is lvl 7 beams at this point. No gear upgrades. Scimitar 31k engineer character, again, no upgrades. Recluse 29k no upgrades. EC earning per hour, a paltry 1 million ec or so..sometimes much less if staying in public queues...so everything is mediocre at best for me, if I can do it, so can anyone else in the game with just a little bit of that thing we call Effort.
Lol this whole thing is just about ppl being pissed because someone is telling them they shouldnt/cant do advanced and since noone liked being told what to do they bark back and this whole thing keeps going. I think its cause they hate math and dont wanno do it themselfed lr they dont trust the parses or whatever.
Pls realize in fact its the mission thats made by cryptic that requires you doing more than you did. dont kill the messenger if you dont like the message. Thank cryptic for their grand new advanced difficulty in all its glory^^
Well to answer the parser bit, here is 2 of the same parser running. (I am player1)
[Team] : Theirs at whatever settings CombatLogReaderCure Space[5:19] Dmg(DPS) Player1 2,391,495(7,616) Player2 1,050,575(3,303) Player3 735,307(2,356) Player4 434,605(1,411) Player5 264,455(1,342)
Yeah, and I also demand to be accepted to the 100m worldcup-races. Unfortunately there are stupid rules in place which prevent me from that. So I either play by the rules (in this case from cryptic) or leave.
Thats not elitistic, thats just reality. If you are a hindrance to your team, you shouldnt play it. I already said that you can offset lower dps with CC (or even heal sometimes), but in the end its the ones with DPS that finishes the mission, as a mission is only over when everything is dead. One of the rare queues where this isnt the case is azure nebula, which however is timegated.You were so entusiastic when justifying the punishment for the so called "exploiters", yet here you shift the blame to us again and dont adress cryptic, who is at fault. We are just stating the obvious, if you do not recognize the obvious, then you should work about your reality sensors.
Now this makes sense but, in most cases you would only be a hindrance if.
1: you are afk
2: Leeching and, not helping
3: Doing nothing at all
4: Trolling a group/individual
The sense that dps of low numbers is a hindrance, really shows the mentality of what I say about you guys, to be a one sided mirror.
Killing things yes, is a part of this game and, yes the Dev's have set a somewhat needed level of it to complete missions but, it was set before DR at a level that virtually any ship, any play style, any build could succeed pretty easily.
Now, only normal difficulty allows this to happen, while advanced/elite requires much much more, by.
1: eliminating certain build variety
2: virtually forced dps requirements
3: making tier4 ships virtually pointless (almost)
This is just to name a few examples!
The Dev's went with possibly, what they thought a good majority of the player base, would be willing to adapt to but, found out more people are less wiling to focus on dps only than pictured.
They went with some of the info you guys/gals and, many other's have provided for them, than # crunched what they thought would be an adequate starting point, only for it to pretty much bomb shell on them, fall flat on its face, because now the majority who didn't want such changes are forced to either.
1: deal much higher needed dps
2: quit the game or, deal with it
3: forced to possibly make changes to character & ship
Something not every player wants or, feels needs be enforced on them.
OP, you are not the problem. The problem is Cryptic thinking that you are the Average player, and balancing the game for you. Not your fault.
Also, for STO and healing:
STO ground has characters dying instantly or not at all. Damange is too high, Health is too low. There is no need for healing, for you either die too fast for it, or you don't get damaged much at all.
To a lesser extent, this is true for space too. Heals are not effective enough with One-shot torpedoes and such.
Threat control is also a problem, there is no "taunt" ability, no real way to tank. Tanking is instead, based on DPS (LOL).
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
See, here is where you completely killed yourself, as not trying to come off as a so called baddie!
To say people cannot and, should not ever be able to have fun in advance with those types of builds, is a pure sign of elitist attitude.
And to the OP, really!
You all are now trying to have someone, act as your personal PR guy?
You all must be getting really desperate!
And, while you all might not have been the only factor in Cryptic's decision, to how the changes to advanced/elite STFs went over, you did however have a part in it!
When they noted all of the bragging, videos, posting, threads done by you people, well it's no wonder they felt the need to up the requirements, as you gave them the impression that this is normal and, that many people follow suite or, at least they should/must!
Politics, does nothing good really for anyone, except the politician and, those who side with them.
Why are you trolling the forums, what is your benefit from that? Or is it just your style of communication (which could be, because it is so consistant accross several topics in which you have posted) ?
You guys really do need help with your PR ... , because if you keep insisting on the "do it yourself" thing , you might as well go back to grade school .
Or maybe this tip will help you : you are NOT on a typical gamers forum , where sneering at others skillz (solo or in a pack) will get you credit ... . I you want that 12 year old stuff , go post on a CoD forum .
...plus , considering how casual this game is , you might as well be proclaiming to be the "Wizards of Farmville" ...
(and you know ... make yourself's look like an idiot in the process ...)
First off, if elite paid exactly as normal did - ie, was only there for the challenge, then we'd not be having this argument, as all the "scrubs" who don't want to be shoehorned into a build can get our stuffs on advanced, and the "elitists" can be grabbing accolades from elite content...
Otherwise, expect everyone, including "undergeared PuGgers", in those elite queues because, dangit, that's where the rewards are.
Now, I'm not completely insensitive to the needs of the high-end playerbase. Elite is clearly advertised to require "top end gear" and a "solid build" to complete. As such, the proposal I'll put out runs clearly on said boundaries. Full slate of Mk XIV Gold and a T5U11 (equivalent to T6, remember the advertising?) ship.
Said ship, for purposes of this challenge/deal, is a T5U11 DSSV.
Since gear is somewhat easier to spell out, I'll start with: Mk XIV Tetryon weaponry, in a "canon" build with one forward and one aft torpedo launcher (aka kinetic bonus), using what is argued to be the "worst" torpedo type (I've lost track of what's the "worst" torpedo for DPS types). Tac consoles should be 2x Gold Tetryon generators, and 1x of the Torpedo boosters all with that vulnerability trick off the spire (will give this over 2x gold beam consoles and a generic warhead yield booster). Science consoles should be 1x shield cap, 1x shield regen, 1x graviton generator, 1x particle booster, all plasma DoT infused when appropriate, and 2x fleet armor + RCS consoles with that 11th console being one clicky of choice. Most likely Nukara weapons set and KHG / AMACO shield/deflector/engine sets (tetryon boost and sci/torp boosts) with [AMP] and aux-heavy warp core of choice filling out the "middle" of the ship. Obviously, all gold.
Skills are a lot harder to spell out, but, since I went DSSV which is a Science vessel with more engineering than tactical, I'll say that skill points should be scattered along those lines - 6s to 9s in all appropriate science skills to support the BOff powers selected, and a heck of a lot more engineering than tactical - ie, if given a choice to put a 6 in, say, the admiral level energy weapon crit boost skill or the admiral level weapons power boosting skill, the 6 goes into engineering, but don't stockpile engineering to the complete detriment of tactical, even though both the aux power and weapons power raising skills are both admiral level and therefore "6 worthy" over the energy and projectile crit boosting tac skills - partially due to anticipated lack of weapons power on the aux-focused sci build, and partially to ease the activation of [AMP] on the warp core...
Captain's class should be engineer, as they are considered the weakest of the three, though I'm more than game of theorycrafting a 5 Sci captain squadron in a 5 science ship mission.
As you can see, I'm fitting the "intent" of this challenge squarely into the advertising (top end gear and solid build) while accounting for and/or actively discouraging "cookie cuttering" into that "cream of the crop" hyper-top-end stuff of all tacticals with Aux2Batting Scimitars spamming AP-B and BFaW with a judicious rotation of FoMM, AP-A, and GDFs coming from the captains in individual turns all over the map.
If it eases the thought process some, instead of 5x DSSVs let's go 3x DSSVs and 2x Galaxy-Rs, both Galaxys built along the earlier lines (no disruptors / plasma burn / radiation heavy weaponry selections, though you get A2B, AP-B I and BFaW I eating up those 2 tac slots, and again, let's not put tacticals into the cruisers, keep them engies...)
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Comments
How the DPS channels work.
There is an open channel called DPS-Public. This channel is not for callout or LFGs/LFMs. it's not an alternative to PESTF. It's sole purpose is to facilitate entry into the higher tier channels.
The higher channels are invite only.
Lets make a hypothetical toon: hugh@laurie is trying to get into the DPS channels. he installs combatlogreader and parses himself in ISA. He gets 15k DPS. great. he now clicks the "Upload" button on the parser and his score is uploaded to the DPS League.
Later one of the admins will open up the DPS League Admin Tool. He'll see a line that says:
@laurie, 15k DPS, channel 10k. The admin will then send an invite for the 10k DPS channel to hugh@laurie.
Hugh@laurie wont get any notifications or popups, but if he goes into chat settings > channels he'll see the DPS-10000 in his channel list. he will have to highlight the channel and click the join button.
if he ever parses higher than 15k then he would get invited to the higher tier channels like 20k, 30k or 50k. So if he gets 33k DPS on one run and uploads his score, he'll see an invite to 20k and 30k in his channel list.
Does that help explain it to you?
Two things. First, what you've outlined there seems prefectly reasonable. I was unde the (mis)assmuption that the OPs complaint reached elite STF pug queues.
2: Kudos on using Hugh Laurie in your example. +5
Next time I get some time I want to try Battle of Korfez, maybe this time I will get to finish it instead of just getting to the last ship and failing miserably.
I will add again that the queues were perfectly fine before DR - the changes were terrible. Blaming folks that want to group together and not fail is not going to solve this issue. Neither is nitpicking about how they communicate, elitist or not, the cold fact is that now in advance you bring the DPS or you hinder the team. Nothing wrong with a sci boat, I own plenty that do more than 10k in a pug - it's not hard, and they are still fun.
You know I totally agree with you, you should have to change your personality, and don't have to. You're there for one thing and one thing only... dps and getting better... and I'm totally cool and in agreement with that.
But yeah, the OP is kind of saying the exact opposite here, trying to justify it's existance and close the gap between the DPS elitist and the rest of the community. To which you've actually made a better argement against then I ever could.
If you can't hack it or don't want to hack it, don't show up. Now there's a thin line between no caring (which I agree with) and being a total TRIBBLE$ and belittling people who aren't at your level or don't care to be at your level.
So I totally agree with you, you shouldn't have to care, that's not what you're there for. You don't belittle, you're not an TRIBBLE$, you just don't care about them, and that's the way it should be. You'll help out, but they got to do the work, again that's how it should be.
But when you have some jerk demanding that every player must get better and be just like them, and use their exact same cookie cutter build, or else gtfo of the game as a whole... that's where the issues start on the elistist end.
Of course you have the exact opposite too. Casuals who think "playing the game how I want it to be played" means going into an elite and bringing the rest of the group down because they think they're awesom and they're horrible, then belittling and calling the others names because they wonder why you're even there.
I tried to explain they dont understand or want to. This is fine .. what I find unfine is that they get upset and seem to not like the way they are perceived. I am not new but I have not partaken in the community but just from reading a couple of posts I got a not great impression. As i said I had considered joining the channels but the posts turned me off. Not because I am particularly offended I just think people should respect one another despite it all and I find it well not respectful.
Anyhow I guess they dont want to change their image okay .. fine but then dont complain about the negative comments that occur as a result of it. You can't have it both ways if you want to look down on people and show them no respect dont expect to be given any respect. It really is that simple.
I kind of see it from both sides, but I'll admit I'm not a member of the dps community.
First I kind of agree with two things from them. One they are a community who find it fun to min/max and a community that find it fun to not fail queues because someone showed up who shouldn't have been there in the first place. I can respect that too. Lets be honest, there are as many "casuals" who are demanding that the game revolve around them and their 2.5k ships as their are people demanding that the game revolve around their 30k ships.
So really there isn't any need to change their image. If you don't find it fun min/maxing and just want to play the game regardless of your dps, then don't join the channel, but don't show up in elites with your 2.5k then wonder why people are complaining that you ruined their fun.
On the other hand, elitists in general have a bad rep and it didn't just appear out of no where. You have a good size minority that simply belittles anyone that shows up that doesn't have the exact same build and the exact same DPS that they do. Heck I've seen elitists belittle people because they don't have cookie cutter builds, even when they can out dps them.
Then you have the people that simply think they're great, and they're not, and can't understand all the hosility coming at them from both sides of the fence.
So I don't know... if you just want to play and have fun and not care about dps, you shouldn't even be in the DPS channel or doing elites more then once if you can't compete. On the other hand, just because you can do 30k dps in a made up game in a made up world isn't something that means you're a better person then someone else and warrent you belittling them. It just means your priorities are different then someone elses.
But don't expect the elitists to suddenly open up their arms to everyone and sing kumbahya with you, when you refuse to listen to their helpful suggestions and don't equate you're type of fun with theirs.
Now the crazy thing about these elite channels is how they use to recruit out of pugs via parsing. I ended up with invites to 10 and 20k dps channels, but I never used them. I didn't mind carrying new players through old elite content. I felt pride when a stranger would thank me for saving his butt, or answering questions about my build.
Without places to recruit, assuming advance elite channels are all private matches, how will you deal with attrition, like burnout. How will you recruit?
Brody.
its incredible fun to deal 30 or 40k dps and let all the enemys pop in seconds while listening to 50s swing music lol :cool: most ppl dont have a sense for that...so haters gona hate.
one last thing...when Im in a hurry and want to get the daily mark bonus I fly into normal queues...I found ppl in BDN who were waiting at the spawn, letting others do the work, and shoot a bit at the end to avoind the penalty. when I stop playing the mission and park my ship at their side, they suddenly move and start playing. once I had to escort such a douchbag to the battlefield. hope this wont spread...
Did ever a science toon reach the 30k dps ?
They will, they can't handle elite, let alone advance. But every coin has two sides sir, the players with potiential to learn and grow, won't. The game will die.
Right build, right ship, right consoles and right DOffs and I wouldn't be surprised. Like I said just TRIBBLE around I've gotten to 27k.
The trick for me at least, is forget the idea that energy weapons are king, and go for exotic damage and torps. Not saying you can't do that with energy weapons, but in science ships it's damn hard to do and you're not playing to your strengths.
The question that needs to be asked seroiusly by some is, do you WANT the science ship on your team to get to 30k, or would you prefer them to be slightly less, but using their abilities to benefit the team as a whole.
I can do less dps, but keep them pretty much locked down and doing less damage to the team, as well as CCing them into nice pretty groups, or healing other team members.
The fleet I run with, they tend to want me to do less DPS, and use abilities to strength the other ships, but I can see others insisting that the science ship must have 30k dps, no questions ask... especially in STO where DPS is king. To me that's the closed minded elitism that I despise, the ones that if you're not doing X DPS no matter what else you're doing, you suck, but most good players understand roles and appreciate you using them... as long as doing so benefits the team and not your own personal ego.
If fact you make the point of my question.
I love science toon and science ship. I love science abilities a lot more than anything else. But in thins game is no point for all of that it just about dps or you are TRIBBLE and not only by other player but by cryptic too. Whit the new contents if you don't do high dps you can't acces to the most reward stuff no matter if you debuf as hell no matter if you heal as a doctor under steroid, no matter if you cc like a politician with golden balls. It's only dps.
And because i don't like play tactical I start to feel hopeless and lose motivation to play this game.
But, intentional or not, some of the posts the last week or so have been very condescending and arrogant, suggesting others are inferior and so shouldn't be allowed to play certain content. I agree if someone can't do advanced, elite is not for them, but we all have to start somewhere and so all we can do if someone isn't as powerful is help them, or consider it a greater challenge, adapt and overcome, fair enough some missions will be failed, but the game is going nowhere, I hope, lol, so we can always retry, again and again and again and again
Yes and no. Because quite honestly my CC is my DPs, I can usually double dip in the new content without much of an issue. In Borg Disconnected I admit I tend to be one of the flyers, flying between the points rescuing the disconnected borg, but there is nothing better for my teammates then a well placed grav well, or shutting down a borg cube when they begin to get overwhelmed... so no I don't do tons of DPS on a Borg Disconnected usually..
But I can and have, including to the point where I've done better then said escorts and cruisers. Again you kind of have to know your ship and your build, but it's certainly possible.
Other queues are easier however.
My own problems tend to be with pugs. Lack of communicatoin and lack of teamwork, and possible a ship that isn't up to snuff has ruined every PUG I've tried, but that's because I don't have the DPS to carry someone else.
I'll be blunt here though... the majority of the people I see flying Science Ships, have no idea how to fly a science ship. They build them like a cruiser or an escort, then complain about how Science Ships suck. That I believe is where the DPS channel could benefit a lot of people.. but if can also hurt.
If you don't know how to fly a science ship learn the ship... you need to fly it as a science ship, and not a mini-cruiser or an escorts bad step-cousin. But then I've seen so called DPS kings tell science captains really, really bad advice because they think one size fits all.
See, here is where you completely killed yourself, as not trying to come off as a so called baddie!
To say people cannot and, should not ever be able to have fun in advance with those types of builds, is a pure sign of elitist attitude.
And to the OP, really!
You all are now trying to have someone, act as your personal PR guy?
You all must be getting really desperate!
And, while you all might not have been the only factor in Cryptic's decision, to how the changes to advanced/elite STFs went over, you did however have a part in it!
When they noted all of the bragging, videos, posting, threads done by you people, well it's no wonder they felt the need to up the requirements, as you gave them the impression that this is normal and, that many people follow suite or, at least they should/must!
Politics, does nothing good really for anyone, except the politician and, those who side with them.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I'm totaly agree with you. I play science in science ship since the beta of the game and I know all what you explain.
But how many player know that ? and how many player see the game only by the dps ? that the point yes i could play with only CC, support and debuf on my science but at the end It will be usefull or powerfull as a full dps tactical toon ? we know it's no.
Seriously i don't even remember how nany time at the end of the stf i was insult by player because my dps was low even if i heal all of them, CC, debut everything for they can dps the maximun they can. how many times i save the stf with a good placed GW ?
But none of that matter anymore just because of the dps run in the game.
Oh I hear you, and I agree. There are too many people in STO.. heck in every MMO I've ever played and I've played a lot of them, that don't see the benefit of non-dps sometimes. Heck I've sucked enemy ships dry to the point that they just sat there, and been told I'm a leech (which I just realized was kind of punny) because I didn't do the same DPS as the rest of the team.
Same thing happens a lot though on my cruiser-tank character as well.
But I don't think that's necessarily the hallmark of a min-maxer. I think that's the hallmark of a super bad player who doesn't know the game as well as they think they do. I've had the exact opposite of your example too where I've done all that, and been creditted with saving the STF because someone else made a mistake and my CC and heals literally let them make up for it.
So I don't know. The idea that top dps is what makes a good player has been a falicy in games since the first MMO started scoring raids, by not taking into account healing and damage mitigation, and only scoring it for DPS. Since then it's propegated across all games, and bad players, being bad players, have no idea and will have no idea, but need something to boost their fragile egos and make it seem like they know what they're doing, even when they're only using a build they copy and pasted off the internet and have no idea the mechanics behind it.
Bad players are bad players, regardless of their DPS. Some people refuse to see that, and my view is TRIBBLE them, I don't want anything to do with them. A proper team of proper players understand what each person brings to their team, and they understand how switching out one player for another, even with a similiar build may effect the team positively or negatively.
Sometimes I swear though that DPS parcers have been the bane of MMOs. Too many people see them as the end all, say all of MMO end game, and don't see them as they should be... a tool to help people get better.
I think the problem is how they "think" and build STO.
Because in every other game i played no-dps toons as healer and debuffer are always welcome and need in a team ( a least one of them).
In STO before dr I saw a complete team with only tactical toon and ship ruch ISE even faster than a team with science toon/ship. And it was done so fast nobodies die.
I saw that happen too in the Bug Hunt elite. I was the only science with only tactical player. At the end we did it faster than i never did and it was so fast I need to heal only myself sometimes.
The problem come from here. Only full dps = easier and faster. Had some science or engineer and it go less fast.
Yeah I agree, DR did a number on non-DPS. With timed queues and ships that had their HPs increased exponentially, it has become even more imperative that you have a certain high level of DPS.
I was actually told by someone to let them die because in the end my DPS on target was more important then the couple of seconds of loss that would come from him dying.
It proved accurate too which is kind of sad.
So yeah STO has always been DPS centered, simply because honestly I don't think the devs know how to do anything else, and DPS is always the easiest thing to cater to. So to make things "harder" they don't increase the AI, they don't increase the damage a ship does to you really, no they just add a timer and a huge number of HPs to their ship and claim it to be harder.
But back on topic rant off, there are times though when tanking and CC are highly useful, it's just honestly mostly in queues that no one plays simply because it requires more thinking and planning then what many players want to do in this game. It's easier to grab a cut and paste cookie cutter build, point and shoot and hit 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 on their keyboards then to actually think what they need to do.
Which is also why science ships are concidered by many people to be "underpowered and weak". Cookie cutter builds don't work on them, you need to think your way through them to honestly be the top of the top. Aux2Bat don't work, we don't have the engineer and weapon slots and tac console slots to be cannon and FAW boats and our science skills require timeing.
But when a science ship works it works great.
Yeah, and I also demand to be accepted to the 100m worldcup-races. Unfortunately there are stupid rules in place which prevent me from that. So I either play by the rules (in this case from cryptic) or leave.
Thats not elitistic, thats just reality. If you are a hindrance to your team, you shouldnt play it. I already said that you can offset lower dps with CC (or even heal sometimes), but in the end its the ones with DPS that finishes the mission, as a mission is only over when everything is dead. One of the rare queues where this isnt the case is azure nebula, which however is timegated.
You were so entusiastic when justifying the punishment for the so called "exploiters", yet here you shift the blame to us again and dont adress cryptic, who is at fault. We are just stating the obvious, if you do not recognize the obvious, then you should work about your reality sensors.
Pls realize in fact its the mission thats made by cryptic that requires you doing more than you did. dont kill the messenger if you dont like the message. Thank cryptic for their grand new advanced difficulty in all its glory^^
If you need a sword to beat a fantasy mob and bring a dagger, and that dagger if used by the very best player, still would not be enough to win....then you by bringing that dagger suck, are a bad player, a scrub, and a TROLL.....Do NOT come to queues unprepared with the expectation that someone will earn the rewards for you....Just because you play the game does NOT mean I have to get the rewards for you so you can have your good time.
All you people that want to slam the DPS channels, why not try slamming all the losers who want things to be just given to them with no effort....They show up with no clue how to complete successfully the mission they want rewards from....They show up in ships that cannont succeed in doing the content...and they expect to be carried if they cannot do the content, and they expect Cryptic to change it so they dont have to utilize their brain in the least little bit. This is the problem in general...STO has become a game for the simplistic, just click a button, and you are done.
Have people forgotten what STFs were like when STFs were the only endgame content? When pugging it was exactly the same as it is now....If you pugged and the pug could not be bothered to follow the strat, your team lost.....When people would queue up with shuttles because they thought it was funny to watch people fail. How is that any different with someone queue up for Korfez with a sub10k dps ship, which has a time limit for you to kill 8 ships in the first part. Every mission in Korfez you have some type of timer like activity happening and you consistently see people queuing up without the proper equipment so to speak to accomplish the mission. Yet, somehow, by calling them jerks, or names, people on their White Horses come in all Paladin like, to defend the sorry gamers who are queuing up unprepared for the content.
If you queue up for a mission that is marked elite and you have trouble with all advanced or even normal content....YOU are a TROLL...make no mistake....You will be queuing up for content you have NO business queuing up for, because you cannot do the content leading to it.
In math they dont start you off with multiplication and division....why not...because you have to build from the foundation first, learn addition and subtraction before you move on to more advanced concepts. Same thing here, people queue up without having a foundation expecting to succeed, and that expectation is idiotic.
Please note, at no time did I say that having TRIBBLE tons of dps is the only way. However, if you have no plan, or believe that your plan will not be followed even if you try to formulate it with the players you will be teaming with, how else are you goign to succeed? So, you are planning on playing a tank and aggroing everything around the heavy assualts in korfez....so that dps ships can focus on the primary targets...tell people....but be prepared to keep aggro and survive...otherwise, just stick to dps'ing the main targets to help take it down
I could personally care less about the way people play, but I do have one expectation, that I think is normal...If I join a public queue, then I should be able to have the reasonable expectation of the players joining it with me of having the capability not only with their gear, but with the the understanding of the encounter to succeed....It doesnt take long to ask in channels what encounters are like, or looking it up on the net, or even telling the team this is your first time, and need points or help....on the other hand not being prepared in anyway shape or form, just plain being lazy, and not wanting to play the game, and personally showing up like that just ruins my experience.
Telling the team this is your first time isnt hard, but does require someone to drop their pride that they cannot meet some strangers expectations....Well, guess what, the DPS channels help with that nicely....They provide a benchmark for me to strive for, and a somewhat good guage one what I can expect out of the people who come from whatever channel.
AT some points there have been some pretty crappy people, who blame things on others, but got that in STOmasters, got that in pestf, got that before any of these channels existed...You will always have people who refuse to be responsible for their own actions, who will blame others.
I am calling it as a see it, most in the public queues have shown an utter lack of regard for their fellow players, thats been my experience based on their game player. Does that mean that everyone in the public queue is at fault, no....it in no way means that. What it does mean is that 9 out of 10 public queue groups, you will have some lazy, no good scrub, who really doesnt want to be bothered with upping their game to the current level of content, and is not bothered by causing your to fail and have a cooldown timer solely because they or others with them are unprepared. Personally, I think Cryptic should up the normal content to be in line with the Advanced, and Elite content.
By that last comment, what I mean, is that normal should have the same mechanics of failure as Advance and Elite, so that it trains the players into the proper way to achieve success at higher levels of difficulty. After all, everyone should have the expectation that they can succeed at normal content. Advanced content should be completedly successfully if more effort is put in, but it should be harder than normal, and if you do not put in more effort you DESERVE to FAIL. Elite content should be failed quickly if all the effort you put into is the same as you did for normal....but all the content from normal to advance to elite should have pretty much the same conditions to fail, just maybe more severe for more difficult content.
BDN----if you dont protect all lanes and get some of the disconnected from each lane, say 2 atleast 2-4 disconnected in each lane you fail.....In BDA, it can go from 2-4 to 4-6 to reach the failure....see same mechanics, just harder...instead you can roll through BDN because thats what the 'Casual player of STO wants....We dont want any effort just give us our reward, (as a general rule of thumb, realizing one size does not fit all)
But really if the causual player really wanted to have it easy, and truly be casaul...they would figure out how to get high dps, because that high dps makes it so you have more time to just sit around and do whatever, without having to spend hours grinding out mission after mission after mission...oh wait thats an exploit if you do too much dmg too quickly to grind through the content because of poor QA...sorry, guess casual should just continue to grind for 6 months and get further behind.
PS-Oh DPS Channel admin, I still need my 30000 channel invite please been 7+ days......Oh 35k dps, narcine mk12 gear, highest R&D is lvl 7 beams at this point. No gear upgrades. Scimitar 31k engineer character, again, no upgrades. Recluse 29k no upgrades. EC earning per hour, a paltry 1 million ec or so..sometimes much less if staying in public queues...so everything is mediocre at best for me, if I can do it, so can anyone else in the game with just a little bit of that thing we call Effort.
@shirnai
Well to answer the parser bit, here is 2 of the same parser running. (I am player1)
[Team] : Theirs at whatever settings CombatLogReaderCure Space[5:19] Dmg(DPS) Player1 2,391,495(7,616) Player2 1,050,575(3,303) Player3 735,307(2,356) Player4 434,605(1,411) Player5 264,455(1,342)
[Zone] Mine at Default settings: CombatLogReaderCure Space[5:20] Dmg(DPS) Player1 2,389,207(11,598) Player2 1,042,952(5,607) Player3 722,231(5,195) Player4 437,226(4,244) Player5 264,455(2,843)
Quite a difference in dps between the 2 exact same parses no?
Now this makes sense but, in most cases you would only be a hindrance if.
1: you are afk
2: Leeching and, not helping
3: Doing nothing at all
4: Trolling a group/individual
The sense that dps of low numbers is a hindrance, really shows the mentality of what I say about you guys, to be a one sided mirror.
Killing things yes, is a part of this game and, yes the Dev's have set a somewhat needed level of it to complete missions but, it was set before DR at a level that virtually any ship, any play style, any build could succeed pretty easily.
Now, only normal difficulty allows this to happen, while advanced/elite requires much much more, by.
1: eliminating certain build variety
2: virtually forced dps requirements
3: making tier4 ships virtually pointless (almost)
This is just to name a few examples!
The Dev's went with possibly, what they thought a good majority of the player base, would be willing to adapt to but, found out more people are less wiling to focus on dps only than pictured.
They went with some of the info you guys/gals and, many other's have provided for them, than # crunched what they thought would be an adequate starting point, only for it to pretty much bomb shell on them, fall flat on its face, because now the majority who didn't want such changes are forced to either.
1: deal much higher needed dps
2: quit the game or, deal with it
3: forced to possibly make changes to character & ship
Something not every player wants or, feels needs be enforced on them.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Also, for STO and healing:
STO ground has characters dying instantly or not at all. Damange is too high, Health is too low. There is no need for healing, for you either die too fast for it, or you don't get damaged much at all.
To a lesser extent, this is true for space too. Heals are not effective enough with One-shot torpedoes and such.
Threat control is also a problem, there is no "taunt" ability, no real way to tank. Tanking is instead, based on DPS (LOL).
Why are you trolling the forums, what is your benefit from that? Or is it just your style of communication (which could be, because it is so consistant accross several topics in which you have posted) ?
Really sure :
One of the early posters was correct .
You guys really do need help with your PR ... , because if you keep insisting on the "do it yourself" thing , you might as well go back to grade school .
Or maybe this tip will help you : you are NOT on a typical gamers forum , where sneering at others skillz (solo or in a pack) will get you credit ... . I you want that 12 year old stuff , go post on a CoD forum .
...plus , considering how casual this game is , you might as well be proclaiming to be the "Wizards of Farmville" ...
(and you know ... make yourself's look like an idiot in the process ...)
Otherwise, expect everyone, including "undergeared PuGgers", in those elite queues because, dangit, that's where the rewards are.
Now, I'm not completely insensitive to the needs of the high-end playerbase. Elite is clearly advertised to require "top end gear" and a "solid build" to complete. As such, the proposal I'll put out runs clearly on said boundaries. Full slate of Mk XIV Gold and a T5U11 (equivalent to T6, remember the advertising?) ship.
Said ship, for purposes of this challenge/deal, is a T5U11 DSSV.
Since gear is somewhat easier to spell out, I'll start with: Mk XIV Tetryon weaponry, in a "canon" build with one forward and one aft torpedo launcher (aka kinetic bonus), using what is argued to be the "worst" torpedo type (I've lost track of what's the "worst" torpedo for DPS types). Tac consoles should be 2x Gold Tetryon generators, and 1x of the Torpedo boosters all with that vulnerability trick off the spire (will give this over 2x gold beam consoles and a generic warhead yield booster). Science consoles should be 1x shield cap, 1x shield regen, 1x graviton generator, 1x particle booster, all plasma DoT infused when appropriate, and 2x fleet armor + RCS consoles with that 11th console being one clicky of choice. Most likely Nukara weapons set and KHG / AMACO shield/deflector/engine sets (tetryon boost and sci/torp boosts) with [AMP] and aux-heavy warp core of choice filling out the "middle" of the ship. Obviously, all gold.
Skills are a lot harder to spell out, but, since I went DSSV which is a Science vessel with more engineering than tactical, I'll say that skill points should be scattered along those lines - 6s to 9s in all appropriate science skills to support the BOff powers selected, and a heck of a lot more engineering than tactical - ie, if given a choice to put a 6 in, say, the admiral level energy weapon crit boost skill or the admiral level weapons power boosting skill, the 6 goes into engineering, but don't stockpile engineering to the complete detriment of tactical, even though both the aux power and weapons power raising skills are both admiral level and therefore "6 worthy" over the energy and projectile crit boosting tac skills - partially due to anticipated lack of weapons power on the aux-focused sci build, and partially to ease the activation of [AMP] on the warp core...
Captain's class should be engineer, as they are considered the weakest of the three, though I'm more than game of theorycrafting a 5 Sci captain squadron in a 5 science ship mission.
As you can see, I'm fitting the "intent" of this challenge squarely into the advertising (top end gear and solid build) while accounting for and/or actively discouraging "cookie cuttering" into that "cream of the crop" hyper-top-end stuff of all tacticals with Aux2Batting Scimitars spamming AP-B and BFaW with a judicious rotation of FoMM, AP-A, and GDFs coming from the captains in individual turns all over the map.
If it eases the thought process some, instead of 5x DSSVs let's go 3x DSSVs and 2x Galaxy-Rs, both Galaxys built along the earlier lines (no disruptors / plasma burn / radiation heavy weaponry selections, though you get A2B, AP-B I and BFaW I eating up those 2 tac slots, and again, let's not put tacticals into the cruisers, keep them engies...)
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]