A big part of the problem is the design of the game itself.
This game is designed in such a way that your starship is the equivalent of a sword or shield in any other fantasy MMO.
This presents an issue because this is NOT the typical treatment for starships within the IP which this game is based upon. So the "Level Cap Increases mean New Gear. Deal with it." argument is rather out of place in this discussion, especially considering that THE single most readily identifiable connection to the IP that this game has going for it, is it's ships. (At least until that T6 Cruiser was introduced in Vegas)
Asking people to set aside the last link to the IP this game has, in favor of standard, run-of-the-mill MMO operating procedures is a particularly tough pill to swallow, as the forum threads today alone have clearly shown. And I'm pretty sure this sore spot with the players isn't going to get any better any time soon, as Cryptic is likely way way WAY too far into the development process to even consider making a change, even if they were inclined to do so, which I highly doubt they are.
If I were Cryptic's marketing department, I would be hating my job right now, because it just got infinitely harder to sell this game, especially to those who are only in this game for the IP.
A Starship is more than just a sword, shield, or mount. It is your character while in space maps. In other MMOs, old ships would just get ignored while STO has to make sure that our characters (ships) are still somewhat relevant. Do you honestly think that a Tier 6 ship would be better than a T5-U Scimitar?
Thank you for separating the constructive and meaningful feedback from the rhetoric, Trevor. And then presenting it to the devs. You've earned your paycheck this week.
And what is that constructive and meaningfull feedback?
Seems like a calculated risk by a very cynical company who thinks they know their players. It could work in their favor and the naysayers like me will be the minority. Or it could blow up in their face like the poorly received Galaxy refit (recent) or it could be something in between.
Frankly between the numerous new grids, crafting, leveling of ships and all the other work they are adding with X2, I think the joy has been sucked out of this game. Couldn't even work up the enthusiasm to do the CE today and yesterday ... and that event is super easy and generous.
Charging people for upgrades is okay (assuming $5 or $10). Making the upgraded ships inferior to T6 (significantly in my opinion) + lack of revamped canon ships is NOT.
But whatever ... fanbois are salivating over these announcements.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
And what is that constructive and meaningfull feedback?
The things that are actually respectful, but assertive. The things that offer realistic alternatives and solutions, in addition to pointing out the problems. Posts that are grounded in reality, and not delusion.
We seriously have to do something about this. This game has been a big part of my life the past 2 years, I don't wanna see it die out. I made good friends and grew memories playing this game but enough I enough!
yes. my fleet for a few months has about 6 active members and before that 3 to 4. in a few months we went from barely T2 level to starting T 4. we were so looking forward to getting fleet version of our favorite ships. Our fleets head main leaders are both lifers since beta and they are LIVID. why both getting any fleet ship after this and now even our mirror ships with is about half my fleet are not upgradable. Thus the MAIN INSENTIVE for people coming into our fleet is now gone. The fact that in 12 hours this thread has gone to 108 pages and now going beyond. Most of it negative. Many feel this is going to be the worse patch ever. Heck about 5 of us spent minutes talking about the fed t6 ship on their new article. Not one of us like it. It's not FED and many of us know ship modelers that can do a much better job in this. I worked on Star Trek Legacy Ultimate Universe mod and was one of the orginal 3 that worked on the Sins mod Star trek Armada 3. so we know ship designs. what Crypic is bringing out is completely garbage on the fed front.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,417Community Moderator
edited August 2014
Not at the current DL Exchange prices. And they're only gonna get worse.
The things that are actually respectful, but assertive. The things that offer realistic alternatives and solutions, in addition to pointing out the problems. Posts that are grounded in reality, and not delusion.
yes. my fleet for a few months has about 6 active members and before that 3 to 4. in a few months we went from barely T2 level to starting T 4. we were so looking forward to getting fleet version of our favorite ships. Our fleets head main leaders are both lifers since beta and they are LIVID. why both getting any fleet ship after this and now even our mirror ships with is about half my fleet are not upgradable. Thus the MAIN INSENTIVE for people coming into our fleet is now gone. The fact that in 12 hours this thread has gone to 108 pages and now going beyond. Most of it negative. Many feel this is going to be the worse patch ever. Heck about 5 of us spent minutes talking about the fed t6 ship on their new article. Not one of us like it. It's not FED and many of us know ship modelers that can do a much better job in this. I worked on Star Trek Legacy Ultimate Universe mod and was one of the orginal 3 that worked on the Sins mod Star trek Armada 3. so we know ship designs. what Crypic is bringing out is completely garbage on the fed front.
I agree completely. There is no incentive to do anything at all in the game. It's the most passive "pay or leave" F2P I have ever seen!
After reading the whole thread and seeing some further explanations from Geko and Gorngonzolla I am more positive about the whole upgrade issue.
If the T5U cost will be 500 zen then I think it is very reasonable. 1000 zen would be too much, and it will probably put off many people.
Fleet ships should be free to upgrade. Period! I already paid my 500 Zen, 20k FC, and fleet provision for it. Nickel and dime new players. Not old ones.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
So after 108 pages of reading, I've reached the end of this thread (for now) and compiled my list of feedback and questions to send off from this topic.
I hope to bring some good clarification to some of the questions brought up about the T5 to T5-U upgrades.
Thanks go out to everyone who brought up some good points, reported some typing mistakes in the initial blog, and asked some very good questions that we had not thought of.
Take care and get some rest forum folks!
~CaptainSmirk
thank for passing this through the seive of sensibility
If the T5U cost will be 500 zen then I think it is very reasonable. 1000 zen would be too much, and it will probably put off many people.
Honestly I'm hoping Cryptic will allow us to upgrade Fleet ships for free. It is rather insulting for Cryptic to give the lockbox/lobi ships and veteran ships a free upgrade while charging players to upgrade ships they have paid at least $20 on a per character basis to obtain. Not to mention that fleet ships are on a per character unlock and the unlock doesn't reduce the lost on additional characters.
Buying a Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit costs 4 fleet modules on every character the player wishes to use it on because it (and many other ships) doesn't have a C-store version to discount it. Tossing another fee on top of extremely high fleet ship costs is enough to have people throwing their hands up in annoyance. The type of upgrade cost Cryptic puts out there truly hurts players that PvP the most because they typically buy a wide variety of ships on a number of characters with distinct builds in mind.
I understand if Cryptic decides a cost is needed in the end, but I'd really like them go to back and look at the excessively expensive method players must jump through in order to get a variety of fleet ships on a number of characters. Because, let's face it, a non-fleet Tier V ship is much less viable in PvP than a Tier V fleet ship. The gap will be even worse after Delta Rising goes live. I'm beginning to believe that Cryptic has no intention of ever expanding on PvP content within Star Trek Online. As it stands right now the new upgrade system will increase barrier to entry to the point where casual PvPers won't invest their time gearing for PvP due to the high real world currency cost. Not to mention the grind needed to obtain the gear and the millions of energy credits needed for excessively rare duty officers (Attack Pattern Cooldown Conn Officers *cough cough cough*).
So after 108 pages of reading, I've reached the end of this thread (for now) and compiled my list of feedback and questions to send off from this topic.
I hope to bring some good clarification to some of the questions brought up about the T5 to T5-U upgrades.
Thanks go out to everyone who brought up some good points, reported some typing mistakes in the initial blog, and asked some very good questions that we had not thought of.
Take care and get some rest forum folks!
~CaptainSmirk
Thank you so much.
I look forward to more clarification on the questions and suggestions.
what is the general feeling about paying zen to upgrade your ship i am lucky in that most of my ships are lobi ships or lock box ships but for those people who have to pay zen to upgrade there ships i dont think will be to happy
how about you guys will you pay to upgrade your ship or not and do you feel cyrptic are being unfair
My general thought is I don't so much mind that it's going to cost zen to upgrade ships.
I'm upset that ships I paid zen for, a lot of zen/cash for, will cost me more zen/cash to upgrade up and they still will behind the power curve. Given Cryptic's usual power creep curve, the t6 ships releasing in October will be obsolete by next year this time, meaning that the t-5us will be obsolete and worthless by April tops.
Honestly I'm hoping Cryptic will allow us to upgrade Fleet ships for free. It is rather insulting for Cryptic to give the lockbox/lobi ships and veteran ships a free upgrade while charging players to upgrade ships they have paid at least $20 on a per character basis to obtain. Not to mention that fleet ships are on a per character unlock and the unlock doesn't reduce the lost on additional characters.
Buying a Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit costs 4 fleet modules on every character the player wishes to use it on because it (and many other ships) doesn't have a C-store version to discount it. Tossing another fee on top of extremely high fleet ship costs is enough to have people throwing their hands up in annoyance. The type of upgrade cost Cryptic puts out there truly hurts players that PvP the most because they typically buy a wide variety of ships on a number of characters with distinct builds in mind.
I understand if Cryptic decides a cost is needed in the end, but I'd really like them go to back and look at the excessively expensive method players must jump through in order to get a variety of fleet ships on a number of characters. Because, let's face it, a non-fleet Tier V ship is much less viable in PvP than a Tier V fleet ship. The gap will be even worse after Delta Rising goes live. I'm beginning to believe that Cryptic has no intention of ever expanding on PvP content within Star Trek Online. As it stands right now the new upgrade system will increase barrier to entry to the point where casual PvPers won't invest their time gearing for PvP due to the high real world currency cost. Not to mention the grind needed to obtain the gear and the millions of energy credits needed for excessively rare duty officers (Attack Pattern Cooldown Conn Officers *cough cough cough*).
I agree with you. Although I'm not a PvP person myself nor do I think PvP is of any major concern but aside from that you are 100% correct. We have all paid and ground for what we have. We ARE NOT going to do that again. Think about it, why pay to grind? Why should we have to grind at all? It realm makes no sense and neither does this new expansion.
I agree with you. Although I'm not a PvP person myself nor do I think PvP is of any major concern but aside from that you are 100% correct. We have all paid and ground for what we have. We ARE NOT going to do that again. Think about it, why pay to grind? Why should we have to grind at all? It realm makes no sense and neither does this new expansion.
exactly. the most conserative cost to upgrade a T5 ship goes this way. 2500 zen for the T5 ship. 20k in FC and anotehr 500 zen plus a fleet provision for the Fleet version. another 500 zen to upgrade it further. That's not even counting the EC, dil, doffs, and time to upgrade your fleet base to get some of these ships. And all of that and they will not even be close to a T6 when we are done with it all. Who ever thought this was a good idea should be fired for he or she can only flip burgers with that kind of intelligence.
I agree completely. There is no incentive to do anything at all in the game. It's the most passive "pay or leave" F2P I have ever seen!
I'll take a passive "pay or leave" game like STO over the hyper-aggressive "pay or leave" SWTOR.
Count your blessings STO doesn't make you pay to:
-Rez close to where you died
-Do group content (more than 3 times a week)
-Customize your character
-Equip certain quality levels of gear
-Access certain character powers/emotes
-Access general game content (such as the space shooter missions)
SWTOR is a nightmare for the F2P player. STO sells you ships and items, but you can still play the game without feeling like you're being clubbed over the head.
I've said it before, but if you're a subscriber, you get that 500 Zen monthly stipend. I'd be very surprised if the upgrade cost for a ship is higher than 500 Zen, so you can just use your stipend to upgrade whatever ship you want to use first. I know it's not ideal for a subscriber, but it could be a lot worse.
Argue against the design choices as you see fit, but try to keep things in perspective.
Maybe it's just my opinion (not read much of this thread) but Lockbox & Lobi ships should be upgraded to T6 for free. Not T5U.
People have spent hundreds, some thousands on opening boxes to get these ships. If you don't have the absolute best for this huge expense then it's pure ripoff. And the intention is clear - it's so you'll feel the need to spend hundreds more on the next box which will have a T6.
Just stop being THAT greedy, Cryptic - and do the right thing by your paying and loyal customers.
NOT GOOD ENOUGH! I want my tough little ship (Defiant) to be AS GOOD AS a T6 ship. If these T6 ships are as ugly as some of the other ships you guys made, then I want to keep my ship, that I paid good money for, and NEVER have to worry about upgrading. From the blog post I read, it shounds like the T5 ships will STILL be rendered obsolete after these "upgrades". Do you guys honestly think we're stupid?!
Comments
You have a good point.
This one is for you, Trevor.
A Starship is more than just a sword, shield, or mount. It is your character while in space maps. In other MMOs, old ships would just get ignored while STO has to make sure that our characters (ships) are still somewhat relevant. Do you honestly think that a Tier 6 ship would be better than a T5-U Scimitar?
And what is that constructive and meaningfull feedback?
Frankly between the numerous new grids, crafting, leveling of ships and all the other work they are adding with X2, I think the joy has been sucked out of this game. Couldn't even work up the enthusiasm to do the CE today and yesterday ... and that event is super easy and generous.
Charging people for upgrades is okay (assuming $5 or $10). Making the upgraded ships inferior to T6 (significantly in my opinion) + lack of revamped canon ships is NOT.
But whatever ... fanbois are salivating over these announcements.
- Judge Aaron Satie
The things that are actually respectful, but assertive. The things that offer realistic alternatives and solutions, in addition to pointing out the problems. Posts that are grounded in reality, and not delusion.
In other words, the posts that don't resemble this.
yes. my fleet for a few months has about 6 active members and before that 3 to 4. in a few months we went from barely T2 level to starting T 4. we were so looking forward to getting fleet version of our favorite ships. Our fleets head main leaders are both lifers since beta and they are LIVID. why both getting any fleet ship after this and now even our mirror ships with is about half my fleet are not upgradable. Thus the MAIN INSENTIVE for people coming into our fleet is now gone. The fact that in 12 hours this thread has gone to 108 pages and now going beyond. Most of it negative. Many feel this is going to be the worse patch ever. Heck about 5 of us spent minutes talking about the fed t6 ship on their new article. Not one of us like it. It's not FED and many of us know ship modelers that can do a much better job in this. I worked on Star Trek Legacy Ultimate Universe mod and was one of the orginal 3 that worked on the Sins mod Star trek Armada 3. so we know ship designs. what Crypic is bringing out is completely garbage on the fed front.
If the T5U cost will be 500 zen then I think it is very reasonable. 1000 zen would be too much, and it will probably put off many people.
I see you still have much to learn
You realy shouldn´t be running around expecting the best or other people to actually follow your views on things.
I'm going to ask you how many toons you have, how many T5 and fleet ships that are upgradable that you have?
I agree completely. There is no incentive to do anything at all in the game. It's the most passive "pay or leave" F2P I have ever seen!
Yeah, desiring human beings to treat other human beings with respect is such an unreasonable expectation.
Fleet ships should be free to upgrade. Period! I already paid my 500 Zen, 20k FC, and fleet provision for it. Nickel and dime new players. Not old ones.
Which is why you buy now. Waiting for prices to go down is a fool's errand.
Joined January 2009
thank for passing this through the seive of sensibility
TY missed that bit oh well they work fine enough as is.
Honestly I'm hoping Cryptic will allow us to upgrade Fleet ships for free. It is rather insulting for Cryptic to give the lockbox/lobi ships and veteran ships a free upgrade while charging players to upgrade ships they have paid at least $20 on a per character basis to obtain. Not to mention that fleet ships are on a per character unlock and the unlock doesn't reduce the lost on additional characters.
Buying a Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit costs 4 fleet modules on every character the player wishes to use it on because it (and many other ships) doesn't have a C-store version to discount it. Tossing another fee on top of extremely high fleet ship costs is enough to have people throwing their hands up in annoyance. The type of upgrade cost Cryptic puts out there truly hurts players that PvP the most because they typically buy a wide variety of ships on a number of characters with distinct builds in mind.
I understand if Cryptic decides a cost is needed in the end, but I'd really like them go to back and look at the excessively expensive method players must jump through in order to get a variety of fleet ships on a number of characters. Because, let's face it, a non-fleet Tier V ship is much less viable in PvP than a Tier V fleet ship. The gap will be even worse after Delta Rising goes live. I'm beginning to believe that Cryptic has no intention of ever expanding on PvP content within Star Trek Online. As it stands right now the new upgrade system will increase barrier to entry to the point where casual PvPers won't invest their time gearing for PvP due to the high real world currency cost. Not to mention the grind needed to obtain the gear and the millions of energy credits needed for excessively rare duty officers (Attack Pattern Cooldown Conn Officers *cough cough cough*).
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Thank you so much.
I look forward to more clarification on the questions and suggestions.
My general thought is I don't so much mind that it's going to cost zen to upgrade ships.
I'm upset that ships I paid zen for, a lot of zen/cash for, will cost me more zen/cash to upgrade up and they still will behind the power curve. Given Cryptic's usual power creep curve, the t6 ships releasing in October will be obsolete by next year this time, meaning that the t-5us will be obsolete and worthless by April tops.
I agree with you. Although I'm not a PvP person myself nor do I think PvP is of any major concern but aside from that you are 100% correct. We have all paid and ground for what we have. We ARE NOT going to do that again. Think about it, why pay to grind? Why should we have to grind at all? It realm makes no sense and neither does this new expansion.
...what if this ends up being just an item? Something you can sell on the exchange?
The Blog said it's a button on the ship inventory page.
But Fleet Modules will still be sold.
exactly. the most conserative cost to upgrade a T5 ship goes this way. 2500 zen for the T5 ship. 20k in FC and anotehr 500 zen plus a fleet provision for the Fleet version. another 500 zen to upgrade it further. That's not even counting the EC, dil, doffs, and time to upgrade your fleet base to get some of these ships. And all of that and they will not even be close to a T6 when we are done with it all. Who ever thought this was a good idea should be fired for he or she can only flip burgers with that kind of intelligence.
I'll take a passive "pay or leave" game like STO over the hyper-aggressive "pay or leave" SWTOR.
Count your blessings STO doesn't make you pay to:
-Rez close to where you died
-Do group content (more than 3 times a week)
-Customize your character
-Equip certain quality levels of gear
-Access certain character powers/emotes
-Access general game content (such as the space shooter missions)
SWTOR is a nightmare for the F2P player. STO sells you ships and items, but you can still play the game without feeling like you're being clubbed over the head.
I've said it before, but if you're a subscriber, you get that 500 Zen monthly stipend. I'd be very surprised if the upgrade cost for a ship is higher than 500 Zen, so you can just use your stipend to upgrade whatever ship you want to use first. I know it's not ideal for a subscriber, but it could be a lot worse.
Argue against the design choices as you see fit, but try to keep things in perspective.
People have spent hundreds, some thousands on opening boxes to get these ships. If you don't have the absolute best for this huge expense then it's pure ripoff. And the intention is clear - it's so you'll feel the need to spend hundreds more on the next box which will have a T6.
Just stop being THAT greedy, Cryptic - and do the right thing by your paying and loyal customers.
For some reason.
I see you are still missing the point.