I agree completely. There is no incentive to do anything at all in the game. It's the most passive "pay or leave" F2P I have ever seen!
I'll take a passive "pay or leave" game like STO over the hyper-aggressive "pay or leave" SWTOR.
Count your blessings STO doesn't make you pay to:
-Rez close to where you died
-Do group content (more than 3 times a week)
-Customize your character
-Equip certain quality levels of gear
-Access certain character powers/emotes
-Access general game content (such as the space shooter missions)
SWTOR is a nightmare for the F2P player. STO sells you ships and items, but you can still play the game without feeling like you're being clubbed over the head.
I've said it before, but if you're a subscriber, you get that 500 Zen monthly stipend. I'd be very surprised if the upgrade cost for a ship is higher than 500 Zen, so you can just use your stipend to upgrade whatever ship you want to use first. I know it's not ideal for a subscriber, but it could be a lot worse.
Argue against the design choices as you see fit, but try to keep things in perspective.
Maybe it's just my opinion (not read much of this thread) but Lockbox & Lobi ships should be upgraded to T6 for free. Not T5U.
People have spent hundreds, some thousands on opening boxes to get these ships. If you don't have the absolute best for this huge expense then it's pure ripoff. And the intention is clear - it's so you'll feel the need to spend hundreds more on the next box which will have a T6.
Just stop being THAT greedy, Cryptic - and do the right thing by your paying and loyal customers.
NOT GOOD ENOUGH! I want my tough little ship (Defiant) to be AS GOOD AS a T6 ship. If these T6 ships are as ugly as some of the other ships you guys made, then I want to keep my ship, that I paid good money for, and NEVER have to worry about upgrading. From the blog post I read, it shounds like the T5 ships will STILL be rendered obsolete after these "upgrades". Do you guys honestly think we're stupid?!
exactly. the most conserative cost to upgrade a T5 ship goes this way. 2500 zen for the T5 ship. 20k in FC and anotehr 500 zen plus a fleet provision for the Fleet version. another 500 zen to upgrade it further. That's not even counting the EC, dil, doffs, and time to upgrade your fleet base to get some of these ships. And all of that and they will not even be close to a T6 when we are done with it all. Who ever thought this was a good idea should be fired for he or she can only flip burgers with that kind of intelligence.
No way man! I don't want them TRIBBLE up my fast food too
I'll take a passive "pay or leave" game like STO over the hyper-aggressive "pay or leave" SWTOR.
Count your blessings STO doesn't make you pay to:
-Rez close to where you died
-Do group content (more than 3 times a week)
-Customize your character
-Equip certain quality levels of gear
-Access certain character powers/emotes
-Access general game content (such as the space shooter missions)
SWTOR is a nightmare for the F2P player. STO sells you ships and items, but you can still play the game without feeling like you're being clubbed over the head.
I've said it before, but if you're a subscriber, you get that 500 Zen monthly stipend. I'd be very surprised if the upgrade cost for a ship is higher than 500 Zen, so you can just use your stipend to upgrade whatever ship you want to use first. I know it's not ideal for a subscriber, but it could be a lot worse.
Argue against the design choices as you see fit, but try to keep things in perspective.
You are right about SWTOR, but at least spending money there makes more sense than spending it here.
The Blog said it's a button on the ship inventory page.
But Fleet Modules will still be sold.
The devs have said that they are not sure if it will cost Zen or will be an C-Store item. If it is a C-Store item, then it could be sold on the Exchange.
So from what I've read on the upgrades, T5-U is inferior to T6. The difference seems like a 50 with none of the reps done compared to a 50 with all of the reps done. Thats a big difference. In addition it is going to lack a boff ability. Some form of rebalancing needs to be done. The first step should be to give the T5-U an extra Boff ability.
The devs have said that they are not sure if it will cost Zen or will be an C-Store item. If it is a C-Store item, then it could be sold on the Exchange.
Just looked over the upgradeable ships list and i noticed that the regular Obelisk is not on it, i realize that it was originally an episode reward (Sphere of Influence), but now it costs fleet credits AND 2 fleet ship modules, and is no longer offered as the reward for said episode, do you think you guys could add it to the upgradeable ships list?
I really like this ship, epsecially on my Fed Engineer lol, and i'm not in the position to buy the advanced one just to upgrade it later when i have a perfectly servicable ship now...
I'm with the OP. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the long-run.
__________________________________
STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
It's not every day you see a F2P MMO company willing to toss a large portion of it's online store in the garbage. This is practically unheard of in the industry and it will certainly be interesting to see what the result will be -- and I mean this seriously.
It's a scary gamble on Cryptic's part. If they have too many people like me who will not buy the ugly T6 ships, nor willing to pay for an inferior T5U upgrade this could blow up in their face and anger PWE.
Interesting times ahead.
The question is, how inferior are T-5u ships really when compared to T-6 ships and how much is it going to cost to upgrade the ship, and how much are the new T-6 ships going to cost?
Take a 2500 zen c-store ship, charge them 500-1000 (approx) zen to upgrade it to T-5u you're looking at the equivelent of 30 to 35 dollars. Some packages like the Dyson Destroyers will basically be worth even more.
Now if T-5us are basically all things concidered equal to a T-6 ship, and the t-6 ships cost 3000-3500 zen, then it's a wash.
But Cryptic has already said that T-5u ships are inferior to T-6 ships. How much inferior? They've said T-6 abilities will only really be needed for end game content (and that means PvP). So if you plan on doing any of the new elite Taskforces and PvP chances are you'll suck compared to T-6 ships.
So basically if you plan on doing end game content and/or PvP it's not worth paying for the upgrade. You'll waste all that ship exp on a ship that'll be "competative" but not "useful" in elite taskforces and pvp when you can buy a new ship.
And that's exactly what Cryptic is counting on. This whole Zen upgrade thing is a farce and Cryptic knows it. They don't WANT you to pay 5 dollars for an upgrade. They WANT you to spend 30(?) more dollars on T-6 ships.
The whole upgrade thing is simply a way to attempt to passify the masses (which isn't working oh so well) and a way for you to upgrade your old ships to being "RP ships" and used in non-elite taskforces, by using dilithium to buy 500 zen (which isn't all that much dilithium).
They want the 30 extra dollars most people will drop not a measly 5 dollars.
And the thing is, this uproar is perfect for Cryptic. They want people to understand that T-5u ships will suck. They want people to understand that to be truely competative you need to spend extra money on a new ship. And people will, hand over fist.
I'll take a passive "pay or leave" game like STO over the hyper-aggressive "pay or leave" SWTOR.
Count your blessings STO doesn't make you pay to:
-Rez close to where you died
-Do group content (more than 3 times a week)
-Customize your character
-Equip certain quality levels of gear
-Access certain character powers/emotes
-Access general game content (such as the space shooter missions)
SWTOR is a nightmare for the F2P player. STO sells you ships and items, but you can still play the game without feeling like you're being clubbed over the head.
I've said it before, but if you're a subscriber, you get that 500 Zen monthly stipend. I'd be very surprised if the upgrade cost for a ship is higher than 500 Zen, so you can just use your stipend to upgrade whatever ship you want to use first. I know it's not ideal for a subscriber, but it could be a lot worse.
Argue against the design choices as you see fit, but try to keep things in perspective.
I know 2 lifers that get that stipend and they are as livid as I am, if they upgraded all their ships it would be nearly as mush as a T5 zen ship or more. then there's the mirror ships they have and don't get an upgrade at all.
The devs have said that they are not sure if it will cost Zen or will be an C-Store item. If it is a C-Store item, then it could be sold on the Exchange.
Hey, I'm just quoting the blog. If the devs are still questioning the mechanics, then hey, it shouldn't have gone up for the whole world to read. :rolleyes:
You are right about SWTOR, but at least spending money there makes more sense than spending it here.
Does it? To play one character in SWTOR, you still have to pay out every single week if you want to do all of the content. They practically beat you into subscribing if you play at all seriously.
To the casual player (STO's key demographic), STO is far more forgiving than SWTOR. I only have one character that flies one ship (two if you count my Fighter). I am a F2P player, and spent $25 on my ship back when the FTER first came out. I haven't paid a cent since then. Now, if they ask me to pay 500 Zen to upgrade my ship, I'll do it... either with money or converting my Dilithium, I still haven't decided.
For most of the playerbase, this is easy enough to swallow for a game that otherwise is not very demanding of your wallet.
I understand how frustrating this T6 stuff is for a lifer/subscriber, or even a F2P player, that has a lot of characters with even more ships. You should voice concerns about that, that upgrading and playing all of your alts may not be financially feasible at 500 Zen per character.
I just can't agree that it's the worst thing that's ever happened, though.
First, I don't mind paying extra zen to upgrade my existing ships. It is upgrading after all. However, I am concerned if it will be worth it.
I would like to see an additional bridge officer slot also added to the tier 5 -u ship . The main reasons I upgrade to the next tier is due to the hull, console and bridge officer layouts, and power level of them. The tier 6 can be special by having the specialist bridge officer abilities, but the tier 5 should get some sort of work regarding bridge officer ability to make me want to spend zen to upgrade, rather then scraping for the new tier 6 entirely.
Because this Tier 5, Fleet Tier 5 upgrade business is starting to sound like they didn't put any thought into it.
I'm starting to feel like I didn't put enough thought into my LTS and LoR Legacy Packs. Right now, I will write them off as a wash and forget I ever played this game.
Crypti-fenders can go all 'lol' at this, but seriously, I've paid them enough money over the last few years that they can stop begging me for more. And more. And more.
exactly. the most conserative cost to upgrade a T5 ship goes this way. 2500 zen for the T5 ship. 20k in FC and anotehr 500 zen plus a fleet provision for the Fleet version. another 500 zen to upgrade it further. That's not even counting the EC, dil, doffs, and time to upgrade your fleet base to get some of these ships. And all of that and they will not even be close to a T6 when we are done with it all. Who ever thought this was a good idea should be fired for he or she can only flip burgers with that kind of intelligence.
"not even close?" Gaining the same hull, shield, and console upgrades, the ability to slot 4 new ship traits, possible access to the same ship traits, additional access to later ship traits, account wide unlocking of these upgrades, and yet simply lacking one singe boff ability makes them completely worthless? Take your sensationalist fearmongering bull somewhere else.
If you play mirror ships in endgame content as you claim you do then using even a basic T5 ship should be no problem to you after DR.
Does it? To play one character in SWTOR, you still have to pay out every single week if you want to do all of the content. They practically beat you into subscribing if you play at all seriously.
To the casual player (STO's key demographic), STO is far more forgiving than SWTOR. I only have one character that flies one ship (two if you count my Fighter). I am a F2P player, and spent $25 on my ship back when the FTER first came out. I haven't paid a cent since then. Now, if they ask me to pay 500 Zen to upgrade my ship, I'll do it... either with money or converting my Dilithium, I still haven't decided.
For most of the playerbase, this is easy enough to swallow for a game that otherwise is not very demanding of your wallet.
I understand how frustrating this T6 stuff is for a lifer/subscriber, or even a F2P player, that has a lot of characters with even more ships. You should voice concerns about that, that upgrading and playing all of your alts may not be financially feasible at 500 Zen per character.
I just can't agree that it's the worst thing that's ever happened, though.
Honestly I'm hoping Cryptic will allow us to upgrade Fleet ships for free. It is rather insulting for Cryptic to give the lockbox/lobi ships and veteran ships a free upgrade while charging players to upgrade ships they have paid at least $20 on a per character basis to obtain. Not to mention that fleet ships are on a per character unlock and the unlock doesn't reduce the lost on additional characters.
The Lock Box/Lobi ships (not the Event ships) cost far more than $20 for each one to exist in the game. Sure, somebody might get a Lock Box ship on the first they open - but how many boxes are opened, how many Master Keys are bought that do not result in a ship? Or if somebody were selling Master Keys to get the EC to buy one off the Exchange, how much additional ZEN was involved in that transaction? 1125 ZEN for 10 Keys that bring in 26.5m, meaning that you're looking at 11,250 ZEN for a Temporal Sci? 6708 ZEN for a Narcine? That's not including the ZEN it took in the first place to get the ship, eh? Etc, etc, etc..far more than the $20-25 spent on that Fleet ship. That's likely going to be part of the reasoning behind the Lock Box/Lobi ships (not Event ships) being free upgrades. I mean, 800 Lobi where you average 4-5 Lobi from a Lock Box means you're looking at 160 to 200 Keys on average. No doubt it will be less here and there as folks get higher amounts of Lobi. But that's still 18,000 to 22,500 ZEN on average (heh, it's always amazed me how cheap the Lobi ships tend to go for). Cause the Contortix is going for ~5923 ZEN...but oh well, eh?
But while I personally disagree on the blanket statement that Fleet ships should be free, it does bring up the matter of the various costs that will be potentially involved in upgrading ships.
2000 ZEN T5 ship + 500 ZEN FSM + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U11
2500 ZEN T5 ship + 500 ZEN FSM + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U11
2000 ZEN 4x FSM + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U11
2500 ZEN 5x FSM + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U11
As well as other ZEN (Fleet-level) ships...
2500 ZEN T5 ship + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U11
And others without a Fleet level version...
2000 ZEN T5 ship + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U10
2500 ZEN T5 ship + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U10
There are folks that will be paying the same as somebody running a T5-U11 while only flying a T5-U10.
It would have been a good time to review/normalize some of those prices before heading into the expansion...
edit: As an aside, it's also kind of a trip when you think about the FSMs vs. Keys.
1125 ZEN for 10 Keys. ~26.5m EC. ~23511 EC per ZEN.
500 ZEN for a FSM. ~9.2m EC. ~18400 EC per ZEN.
4x FSMs would be 2000 ZEN or ~36.8m EC.
~36.8m EC is ~14 Keys. You spend 1125 ZEN for 10 Keys. You spend another 500 ZEN for 4 more Keys.
14 Keys...1625 ZEN instead of the 2000 ZEN it would have cost you if you bought the FSMs from Cryptic.
There's all sorts of goofy things like that on the Exchange...
edit2: Oh nifty, ZEN's up to 181/182 Dil...hope folks started converting back with the STLV announcement and aren't going to wait too long.
After reading that nice little bit of news titled "Tier 5 Starship Upgrades"...
"Players have been invested in this tier of ships for 4 years and we wanted to avoid devaluing the time and money spent in obtaining them."
"We wanted a fair solution instead of requiring players to absolutely need to obtain or purchase a whole new suite of starships for a new tier of content as we have in the past." READ AS: We are totally okay with ransoming stuff back to you that you already own. But you don't have to, it's totally your choice to bring a knife to a gunfight.
"When browsing your starships youll notice that qualifying Tier 5 ships will now have an upgrade button on the starships inventory screen. Pressing this button will prompt you to pay a Zen cost (or possibly require an item with a Zen cost) prove we can get away with anything."
"This cost will be significantly lower than if you were to purchase a Tier 6 ship from the Zen Store." The subtext of this sentence is that all tier 6 ships are C-store ships. Period. How much do they cost? They have to be more expensive than tier 5 C-store ships (now obsolete) but how much more? $30? $35? Not likely. An obsolete tier 5 ($25) plus $5-10 gets you a ship with half the capabilities of a tier 6. Between that and the fact that they don't mention anything about the cost of tier 6 ships (other than it being significantly higher than upgrading a T%) leads me to believe this will be $50-100. Don't worry, they'll be 10% off on launch weekend.
"Second, all existing content, all new story content, patrols and most queues will not require a Tier 6 or Upgraded Tier 5 starship." And they're going to keep releasing level 50 content. Really. They won't keep slipping in more new content that requires you to have any of the T5-U or T6 TRIBBLE. Sell me a bridge while you're at it. Well, MOST of a bridge.
"A notable benefit of upgrading a Tier 5 ship is that the upgrade is available across your entire account." Yes, this is a bargain. Now if I spend $5-10 to upgrade my T5 science ship on my Fed Sci, it's ready to go on my Fed Tac and Fed Engi! Awesome! But why would I want to use that ship on on a Tac or Engi?
It might also help to look at some of the other long term effects, in-game, from this expansion. Look at all the Tier 5 ships, both C-store and Fleet? Why would most people want to buy these now that they're obsolete? So they can spend more money to make it less obsolete? Also, if everyone does buy a T6 ship, how many are there going to be at first? My guess is about 9, one for each class of each faction. Wouldn't it be thrilling if everyone is flying around in the same few T6 ships? Go to the wiki, click on "Playable Starships" and look at all the tier 4 & 5 ships this is affecting. You'd think revenue would plummet from that. And mirror ships? I like some mirror ships more than the originals or the Fleet version. You can't even upgrade them.
I know they need to make money. I get that. But I'm not sure "Delta Rising: Bleed the Faithful" is doing it in the best way. What they have planned shouldn't make new players mad, or anyone with one character and just a couple of ships, but to those of us with multiple characters, some with full ship rosters, this is a slap in the face. If they had just said "Hey, DR and its new features will only be accessible with a one-time fee of $45-$60. Buy the expansion, move on to level 60, upgrade your ALREADY PURCHASED ships, and buy T6 ships from the C-store" I suppose I'd be fine with that. If they want to micro transaction things to death, I guess they could even charge on a per-character basis, but that still seems sleazy. And that's really how the implementation of Delta Rising seems at the moment; sleazy. It's wearing a ill-fitting plaid suit, a bad toupée, and a tie the color of coffee. It's saying that what you've got is still good, but for a few dollars more you can get the upgraded model, AND for just a bit more than that you can get the best thing on the lot. That's what everyone else is going to do. You just need to sign on the dotted line...
I wonder if cryptic realizes that if lock box and lobi ships are only going to be upgraded to T5-U that they just killed thier sales? No one wants to spend money on a slim chance they may get an inferior ship.
"not even close?" Gaining the same hull, shield, and console upgrades, the ability to slot 4 new ship traits, possible access to the same ship traits, additional access to later ship traits, account wide unlocking of these upgrades, and yet simply lacking one singe boff ability makes them completely worthless? Take your sensationalist fearmongering bull somewhere else.
If you play mirror ships in endgame content as you claim you do then using even a basic T5 ship should be no problem to you after DR.
That's post grind smart one. Like I've said, why pay to grind?
Yeah. Because this Tier 5, Fleet Tier 5 upgrade business is starting to sound like they didn't put any thought into it.
Oh they put a ton of thought into it. They've already got your zen/cash from the T5 ships you've bought. They WANT you to spend 2500-5500 zen (what ever they price it at). Most cash for them.
T-5u is designed so you can fly your old ship in pve, and get them a bit of money, but most people will just grind dilithium and buy 500 zen that way regardless. They're not going to make any money off the upgrades.
But when people see how pathetic their T-5u ships are doing in end game content and pvp, they'll go and fork out the extra cash for the new shiny ships.
Making T-5u ships "competative" is just their way of trying to squeeze a bit more cash out of the system.
Yeah. Because this Tier 5, Fleet Tier 5 upgrade business is starting to sound like they didn't put any thought into it.
Hey, I'm just quoting the blog. If the devs are still questioning the mechanics, then hey, it shouldn't have gone up for the whole world to read. :rolleyes:
They most certainly did put thought into it.
The same thought they put into everything else since the F2P conversion:
"How do we MAKE players spend more money?"
The T5-U thing is nothing but a lip service, meant to try and placate the vocal masses that weren't going to like their canon ships being nothing more than museum pieces. But ultimately DR doesn't pay off for Cryptic unless the majority of it's players are in T6.
In a strange way, the T5-U debacle is parallel to the T5 {REDACTED} fight that has been going on for a couple years. Only now it's the rest of the canon ships which are lumped into uselessness with the fan favorite ship that is currently missing from the T5 lineup.
T6 is an attempt by Cryptic to move completely away from any sort of IP restrictions or entanglements that have been holding it back. For all intents and purposes, it creates a sort of STO II, in that you have 1 game from Level 1-50, which has all the canon stuff. Then at Level 50, you start the 2nd game, in which it will be Cryptic's vision (and ONLY Cryptic's vision) from here on out.
I tend to think of the Dyson iPod ship as a test bed. An example, if you will, of their intended artistic direction, and it's sole purpose was to get people familiar with that style and used to it, so that Cryptic could make financial gains on future ships in that style. Sorta like a "Street of Dreams" home, which is meant to convince people that all the new homes going up in that subdivision will be dreamy and fantastic.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
That's post grind smart one. Like I've said, why pay to grind?
So you are too lazy to actually play the game to make your character better, you just want it all given to you for free? Ive got news for you bud, the T6 ships require the same work to get those benefits and boosted stats.
Typical whiners, they want a cap increase and new tiers then complain that they have to work for them.
I'm starting to feel like I didn't put enough thought into my LTS and LoR Legacy Packs. Right now, I will write them off as a wash and forget I ever played this game.
Crypti-fenders can go all 'lol' at this, but seriously, I've paid them enough money over the last few years that they can stop begging me for more. And more. And more.
LOL.
Seriously, though, whence the anger?! Only yesterday I was considering walking, if our T5 ships didn't get some sort of compensatory upgrade-path offered. And today I found out almost ALL my ships get an extra console, extra hitpoints, and can level up with me. And, best of all, all FOR FREE.
So what if there's 1 or 2 older ships that are excluded from the deal!? Like I said elsewhere, sometimes it seems ppl are bent on finding error wuth Cryptic, no matter what.
I will simply delete any ship in my current fleet that requires any zen to upgrade regardless of wheter it cost.
A ship slot or a fleet module to have it in my personel fleet .
I am a lifer since Atari had their name on the door.
I have spent my zen wisely and still have managed to spend well north of 2-3000 in the store over the last few years supporting my ship habit and fleet/
But they are dreaming if I will spend a dollar more on anything I paid a dollar for that's essentialy nerfed to driving miss daisy T5U .
Last few grind seasons have seen me kill off half of my alts rather than drown in GRIND and now my one guilty pleasure of having one of every ship is a black hole of ZEN or Dilithium Grind that will see me kill off more than half my fleet........
WHATS NEXT DEV TEAM .......A T6 COFFIN TO PUT ALL OUR CAPTAINS IN.
Challenge to the devs check out my account see what I spend on average and I am the average guy in my fleet and me and all the other average joes in my fleet are all thinking 2-300 bucks for a star citizen ship aint sounding so ****e right about now.
Does it? To play one character in SWTOR, you still have to pay out every single week if you want to do all of the content. They practically beat you into subscribing if you play at all seriously.
To the casual player (STO's key demographic), STO is far more forgiving than SWTOR. I only have one character that flies one ship (two if you count my Fighter). I am a F2P player, and spent $25 on my ship back when the FTER first came out. I haven't paid a cent since then. Now, if they ask me to pay 500 Zen to upgrade my ship, I'll do it... either with money or converting my Dilithium, I still haven't decided.
For most of the playerbase, this is easy enough to swallow for a game that otherwise is not very demanding of your wallet.
I understand how frustrating this T6 stuff is for a subscriber, or even a F2P player, that has a lot of characters with even more ships. You should voice concerns about that, that upgrading and playing all of your alts may not be financially feasible at 500 Zen per character.
I just can't agree that it's the worst thing that's ever happened, though.
Valid point, but making comparisons to other games isn't going to do anything. There are better games than STO and there are worst games than STO, that's a fact, yay! For a paying subscriber like myself, I have way too many ships to upgrade, of course I would upgrade for pure vanity, because I love my current ships, but Cryptic had a choice of not "devaluing" my ship, those were Gecko's exact words at the Q&A (STLV) when asked about T6 ships, exactly what they did... -_-
11 toons, with multiple fleet ships (almost all different ones except for Avenger which I have two fleet variants on two separate toons, so great, I get a $5 discount, I suppose with the current system), that I've paid for before to be upgraded. I get it, I'm paying $5 basically for making my ship T5U a Fleet Version, instead of just a normal T5U... It's devaluing my ship still... Read the next paragraph and you'll see what I mean.
Cryptic didn't promise current ships would remain the best in the game, that much is obvious and I give them that. The only thing that infuriates me is that all my lockbox ships are literally on par with Fleet ships, but because Cryptic wants to keep promoting their money making machine, lockboxes, they decided to make the upgrade to T5U free for them... I have lockbox ships, grateful that they're doing that, in all honesty, but the system needs much refining because it doesn't make sense.
In addition, the upgrade currently is only to T5U, albeit not a game killer, it still is very disappointing that my Wells or other lockbox ships and even current ships I have will be missing out on full Tier 6... It's not like the ship will self-destruct because a shiny bridge officer steps onto a station on it. What logic is there in that? Only certain ships can have certain bridge officers... That's never been a valid limitation before, and I won't stand for that.
The ships Cryptic has shown in the game suggests that they are modular ships, being able to be upgraded as they age... Scimitar has been in use for 30 years now, and the Assault Cruiser for the same time, and all of a sudden, Utopia Planetia (and any other respective faction shipyard) decides: No. No more ships for admirals that are modular and upgraded... Let's just stuff ourselves with donuts instead. Yeah. Okkk... Ugh, not like anyone will listen though.
Comments
I'll take a passive "pay or leave" game like STO over the hyper-aggressive "pay or leave" SWTOR.
Count your blessings STO doesn't make you pay to:
-Rez close to where you died
-Do group content (more than 3 times a week)
-Customize your character
-Equip certain quality levels of gear
-Access certain character powers/emotes
-Access general game content (such as the space shooter missions)
SWTOR is a nightmare for the F2P player. STO sells you ships and items, but you can still play the game without feeling like you're being clubbed over the head.
I've said it before, but if you're a subscriber, you get that 500 Zen monthly stipend. I'd be very surprised if the upgrade cost for a ship is higher than 500 Zen, so you can just use your stipend to upgrade whatever ship you want to use first. I know it's not ideal for a subscriber, but it could be a lot worse.
Argue against the design choices as you see fit, but try to keep things in perspective.
People have spent hundreds, some thousands on opening boxes to get these ships. If you don't have the absolute best for this huge expense then it's pure ripoff. And the intention is clear - it's so you'll feel the need to spend hundreds more on the next box which will have a T6.
Just stop being THAT greedy, Cryptic - and do the right thing by your paying and loyal customers.
For some reason.
I see you are still missing the point.
No way man! I don't want them TRIBBLE up my fast food too
The devs have said that they are not sure if it will cost Zen or will be an C-Store item. If it is a C-Store item, then it could be sold on the Exchange.
If this doesn't scare you yet. It should now.
I really like this ship, epsecially on my Fed Engineer lol, and i'm not in the position to buy the advanced one just to upgrade it later when i have a perfectly servicable ship now...
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
The question is, how inferior are T-5u ships really when compared to T-6 ships and how much is it going to cost to upgrade the ship, and how much are the new T-6 ships going to cost?
Take a 2500 zen c-store ship, charge them 500-1000 (approx) zen to upgrade it to T-5u you're looking at the equivelent of 30 to 35 dollars. Some packages like the Dyson Destroyers will basically be worth even more.
Now if T-5us are basically all things concidered equal to a T-6 ship, and the t-6 ships cost 3000-3500 zen, then it's a wash.
But Cryptic has already said that T-5u ships are inferior to T-6 ships. How much inferior? They've said T-6 abilities will only really be needed for end game content (and that means PvP). So if you plan on doing any of the new elite Taskforces and PvP chances are you'll suck compared to T-6 ships.
So basically if you plan on doing end game content and/or PvP it's not worth paying for the upgrade. You'll waste all that ship exp on a ship that'll be "competative" but not "useful" in elite taskforces and pvp when you can buy a new ship.
And that's exactly what Cryptic is counting on. This whole Zen upgrade thing is a farce and Cryptic knows it. They don't WANT you to pay 5 dollars for an upgrade. They WANT you to spend 30(?) more dollars on T-6 ships.
The whole upgrade thing is simply a way to attempt to passify the masses (which isn't working oh so well) and a way for you to upgrade your old ships to being "RP ships" and used in non-elite taskforces, by using dilithium to buy 500 zen (which isn't all that much dilithium).
They want the 30 extra dollars most people will drop not a measly 5 dollars.
And the thing is, this uproar is perfect for Cryptic. They want people to understand that T-5u ships will suck. They want people to understand that to be truely competative you need to spend extra money on a new ship. And people will, hand over fist.
I know 2 lifers that get that stipend and they are as livid as I am, if they upgraded all their ships it would be nearly as mush as a T5 zen ship or more. then there's the mirror ships they have and don't get an upgrade at all.
Yeah. Because this Tier 5, Fleet Tier 5 upgrade business is starting to sound like they didn't put any thought into it.
Hey, I'm just quoting the blog. If the devs are still questioning the mechanics, then hey, it shouldn't have gone up for the whole world to read. :rolleyes:
Does it? To play one character in SWTOR, you still have to pay out every single week if you want to do all of the content. They practically beat you into subscribing if you play at all seriously.
To the casual player (STO's key demographic), STO is far more forgiving than SWTOR. I only have one character that flies one ship (two if you count my Fighter). I am a F2P player, and spent $25 on my ship back when the FTER first came out. I haven't paid a cent since then. Now, if they ask me to pay 500 Zen to upgrade my ship, I'll do it... either with money or converting my Dilithium, I still haven't decided.
For most of the playerbase, this is easy enough to swallow for a game that otherwise is not very demanding of your wallet.
I understand how frustrating this T6 stuff is for a lifer/subscriber, or even a F2P player, that has a lot of characters with even more ships. You should voice concerns about that, that upgrading and playing all of your alts may not be financially feasible at 500 Zen per character.
I just can't agree that it's the worst thing that's ever happened, though.
First, I don't mind paying extra zen to upgrade my existing ships. It is upgrading after all. However, I am concerned if it will be worth it.
I would like to see an additional bridge officer slot also added to the tier 5 -u ship . The main reasons I upgrade to the next tier is due to the hull, console and bridge officer layouts, and power level of them. The tier 6 can be special by having the specialist bridge officer abilities, but the tier 5 should get some sort of work regarding bridge officer ability to make me want to spend zen to upgrade, rather then scraping for the new tier 6 entirely.
I'm starting to feel like I didn't put enough thought into my LTS and LoR Legacy Packs. Right now, I will write them off as a wash and forget I ever played this game.
Crypti-fenders can go all 'lol' at this, but seriously, I've paid them enough money over the last few years that they can stop begging me for more. And more. And more.
"not even close?" Gaining the same hull, shield, and console upgrades, the ability to slot 4 new ship traits, possible access to the same ship traits, additional access to later ship traits, account wide unlocking of these upgrades, and yet simply lacking one singe boff ability makes them completely worthless? Take your sensationalist fearmongering bull somewhere else.
If you play mirror ships in endgame content as you claim you do then using even a basic T5 ship should be no problem to you after DR.
Lol. Than you haven't been here long enough yet.
The Lock Box/Lobi ships (not the Event ships) cost far more than $20 for each one to exist in the game. Sure, somebody might get a Lock Box ship on the first they open - but how many boxes are opened, how many Master Keys are bought that do not result in a ship? Or if somebody were selling Master Keys to get the EC to buy one off the Exchange, how much additional ZEN was involved in that transaction? 1125 ZEN for 10 Keys that bring in 26.5m, meaning that you're looking at 11,250 ZEN for a Temporal Sci? 6708 ZEN for a Narcine? That's not including the ZEN it took in the first place to get the ship, eh? Etc, etc, etc..far more than the $20-25 spent on that Fleet ship. That's likely going to be part of the reasoning behind the Lock Box/Lobi ships (not Event ships) being free upgrades. I mean, 800 Lobi where you average 4-5 Lobi from a Lock Box means you're looking at 160 to 200 Keys on average. No doubt it will be less here and there as folks get higher amounts of Lobi. But that's still 18,000 to 22,500 ZEN on average (heh, it's always amazed me how cheap the Lobi ships tend to go for). Cause the Contortix is going for ~5923 ZEN...but oh well, eh?
But while I personally disagree on the blanket statement that Fleet ships should be free, it does bring up the matter of the various costs that will be potentially involved in upgrading ships.
2000 ZEN T5 ship + 500 ZEN FSM + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U11
2500 ZEN T5 ship + 500 ZEN FSM + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U11
2000 ZEN 4x FSM + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U11
2500 ZEN 5x FSM + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U11
As well as other ZEN (Fleet-level) ships...
2500 ZEN T5 ship + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U11
And others without a Fleet level version...
2000 ZEN T5 ship + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U10
2500 ZEN T5 ship + T5-U upgrade cost = T5-U10
There are folks that will be paying the same as somebody running a T5-U11 while only flying a T5-U10.
It would have been a good time to review/normalize some of those prices before heading into the expansion...
edit: As an aside, it's also kind of a trip when you think about the FSMs vs. Keys.
1125 ZEN for 10 Keys. ~26.5m EC. ~23511 EC per ZEN.
500 ZEN for a FSM. ~9.2m EC. ~18400 EC per ZEN.
4x FSMs would be 2000 ZEN or ~36.8m EC.
~36.8m EC is ~14 Keys. You spend 1125 ZEN for 10 Keys. You spend another 500 ZEN for 4 more Keys.
14 Keys...1625 ZEN instead of the 2000 ZEN it would have cost you if you bought the FSMs from Cryptic.
There's all sorts of goofy things like that on the Exchange...
edit2: Oh nifty, ZEN's up to 181/182 Dil...hope folks started converting back with the STLV announcement and aren't going to wait too long.
"Players have been invested in this tier of ships for 4 years and we wanted to avoid devaluing the time and money spent in obtaining them."
"We wanted a fair solution instead of requiring players to absolutely need to obtain or purchase a whole new suite of starships for a new tier of content as we have in the past." READ AS: We are totally okay with ransoming stuff back to you that you already own. But you don't have to, it's totally your choice to bring a knife to a gunfight.
"When browsing your starships youll notice that qualifying Tier 5 ships will now have an upgrade button on the starships inventory screen. Pressing this button will prompt you to pay a Zen cost (or possibly require an item with a Zen cost) prove we can get away with anything."
"This cost will be significantly lower than if you were to purchase a Tier 6 ship from the Zen Store." The subtext of this sentence is that all tier 6 ships are C-store ships. Period. How much do they cost? They have to be more expensive than tier 5 C-store ships (now obsolete) but how much more? $30? $35? Not likely. An obsolete tier 5 ($25) plus $5-10 gets you a ship with half the capabilities of a tier 6. Between that and the fact that they don't mention anything about the cost of tier 6 ships (other than it being significantly higher than upgrading a T%) leads me to believe this will be $50-100. Don't worry, they'll be 10% off on launch weekend.
"Second, all existing content, all new story content, patrols and most queues will not require a Tier 6 or Upgraded Tier 5 starship." And they're going to keep releasing level 50 content. Really. They won't keep slipping in more new content that requires you to have any of the T5-U or T6 TRIBBLE. Sell me a bridge while you're at it. Well, MOST of a bridge.
"A notable benefit of upgrading a Tier 5 ship is that the upgrade is available across your entire account." Yes, this is a bargain. Now if I spend $5-10 to upgrade my T5 science ship on my Fed Sci, it's ready to go on my Fed Tac and Fed Engi! Awesome! But why would I want to use that ship on on a Tac or Engi?
It might also help to look at some of the other long term effects, in-game, from this expansion. Look at all the Tier 5 ships, both C-store and Fleet? Why would most people want to buy these now that they're obsolete? So they can spend more money to make it less obsolete? Also, if everyone does buy a T6 ship, how many are there going to be at first? My guess is about 9, one for each class of each faction. Wouldn't it be thrilling if everyone is flying around in the same few T6 ships? Go to the wiki, click on "Playable Starships" and look at all the tier 4 & 5 ships this is affecting. You'd think revenue would plummet from that. And mirror ships? I like some mirror ships more than the originals or the Fleet version. You can't even upgrade them.
I know they need to make money. I get that. But I'm not sure "Delta Rising: Bleed the Faithful" is doing it in the best way. What they have planned shouldn't make new players mad, or anyone with one character and just a couple of ships, but to those of us with multiple characters, some with full ship rosters, this is a slap in the face. If they had just said "Hey, DR and its new features will only be accessible with a one-time fee of $45-$60. Buy the expansion, move on to level 60, upgrade your ALREADY PURCHASED ships, and buy T6 ships from the C-store" I suppose I'd be fine with that. If they want to micro transaction things to death, I guess they could even charge on a per-character basis, but that still seems sleazy. And that's really how the implementation of Delta Rising seems at the moment; sleazy. It's wearing a ill-fitting plaid suit, a bad toupée, and a tie the color of coffee. It's saying that what you've got is still good, but for a few dollars more you can get the upgraded model, AND for just a bit more than that you can get the best thing on the lot. That's what everyone else is going to do. You just need to sign on the dotted line...
That's post grind smart one. Like I've said, why pay to grind?
Oh they put a ton of thought into it. They've already got your zen/cash from the T5 ships you've bought. They WANT you to spend 2500-5500 zen (what ever they price it at). Most cash for them.
T-5u is designed so you can fly your old ship in pve, and get them a bit of money, but most people will just grind dilithium and buy 500 zen that way regardless. They're not going to make any money off the upgrades.
But when people see how pathetic their T-5u ships are doing in end game content and pvp, they'll go and fork out the extra cash for the new shiny ships.
Making T-5u ships "competative" is just their way of trying to squeeze a bit more cash out of the system.
They most certainly did put thought into it.
The same thought they put into everything else since the F2P conversion:
"How do we MAKE players spend more money?"
The T5-U thing is nothing but a lip service, meant to try and placate the vocal masses that weren't going to like their canon ships being nothing more than museum pieces. But ultimately DR doesn't pay off for Cryptic unless the majority of it's players are in T6.
In a strange way, the T5-U debacle is parallel to the T5 {REDACTED} fight that has been going on for a couple years. Only now it's the rest of the canon ships which are lumped into uselessness with the fan favorite ship that is currently missing from the T5 lineup.
T6 is an attempt by Cryptic to move completely away from any sort of IP restrictions or entanglements that have been holding it back. For all intents and purposes, it creates a sort of STO II, in that you have 1 game from Level 1-50, which has all the canon stuff. Then at Level 50, you start the 2nd game, in which it will be Cryptic's vision (and ONLY Cryptic's vision) from here on out.
I tend to think of the Dyson iPod ship as a test bed. An example, if you will, of their intended artistic direction, and it's sole purpose was to get people familiar with that style and used to it, so that Cryptic could make financial gains on future ships in that style. Sorta like a "Street of Dreams" home, which is meant to convince people that all the new homes going up in that subdivision will be dreamy and fantastic.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
So you are too lazy to actually play the game to make your character better, you just want it all given to you for free? Ive got news for you bud, the T6 ships require the same work to get those benefits and boosted stats.
Typical whiners, they want a cap increase and new tiers then complain that they have to work for them.
LOL.
Seriously, though, whence the anger?! Only yesterday I was considering walking, if our T5 ships didn't get some sort of compensatory upgrade-path offered. And today I found out almost ALL my ships get an extra console, extra hitpoints, and can level up with me. And, best of all, all FOR FREE.
So what if there's 1 or 2 older ships that are excluded from the deal!? Like I said elsewhere, sometimes it seems ppl are bent on finding error wuth Cryptic, no matter what.
A ship slot or a fleet module to have it in my personel fleet .
I am a lifer since Atari had their name on the door.
I have spent my zen wisely and still have managed to spend well north of 2-3000 in the store over the last few years supporting my ship habit and fleet/
But they are dreaming if I will spend a dollar more on anything I paid a dollar for that's essentialy nerfed to driving miss daisy T5U .
Last few grind seasons have seen me kill off half of my alts rather than drown in GRIND and now my one guilty pleasure of having one of every ship is a black hole of ZEN or Dilithium Grind that will see me kill off more than half my fleet........
WHATS NEXT DEV TEAM .......A T6 COFFIN TO PUT ALL OUR CAPTAINS IN.
Challenge to the devs check out my account see what I spend on average and I am the average guy in my fleet and me and all the other average joes in my fleet are all thinking 2-300 bucks for a star citizen ship aint sounding so ****e right about now.
Valid point, but making comparisons to other games isn't going to do anything. There are better games than STO and there are worst games than STO, that's a fact, yay! For a paying subscriber like myself, I have way too many ships to upgrade, of course I would upgrade for pure vanity, because I love my current ships, but Cryptic had a choice of not "devaluing" my ship, those were Gecko's exact words at the Q&A (STLV) when asked about T6 ships, exactly what they did... -_-
11 toons, with multiple fleet ships (almost all different ones except for Avenger which I have two fleet variants on two separate toons, so great, I get a $5 discount, I suppose with the current system), that I've paid for before to be upgraded. I get it, I'm paying $5 basically for making my ship T5U a Fleet Version, instead of just a normal T5U... It's devaluing my ship still... Read the next paragraph and you'll see what I mean.
Cryptic didn't promise current ships would remain the best in the game, that much is obvious and I give them that. The only thing that infuriates me is that all my lockbox ships are literally on par with Fleet ships, but because Cryptic wants to keep promoting their money making machine, lockboxes, they decided to make the upgrade to T5U free for them... I have lockbox ships, grateful that they're doing that, in all honesty, but the system needs much refining because it doesn't make sense.
In addition, the upgrade currently is only to T5U, albeit not a game killer, it still is very disappointing that my Wells or other lockbox ships and even current ships I have will be missing out on full Tier 6... It's not like the ship will self-destruct because a shiny bridge officer steps onto a station on it. What logic is there in that? Only certain ships can have certain bridge officers... That's never been a valid limitation before, and I won't stand for that.
The ships Cryptic has shown in the game suggests that they are modular ships, being able to be upgraded as they age... Scimitar has been in use for 30 years now, and the Assault Cruiser for the same time, and all of a sudden, Utopia Planetia (and any other respective faction shipyard) decides: No. No more ships for admirals that are modular and upgraded... Let's just stuff ourselves with donuts instead. Yeah. Okkk... Ugh, not like anyone will listen though.