Wait, what? The Enterprise or the USS Galaxy or the entire set of Galaxy class starships? The Enterprise spent a lot of time exploring in 7 seasons.
The Enterprise was mostly ferrying colonists, diplomatic missions, delivering supplies, chasing after pirates, and leading task forces. Exploration missions not that much. In fact, the Enterprise was mainly sent on survey missions but diverted to other areas.
I find the information on there quite amusing:
Intrepid class armament: Phaser arrays, phaser banks, spatial charges and torpedo tubes compatible with photon torpedoes, quantum torpedoes, and tricobalt devices
Prometheus class armament: Phaser arrays, photon torpedo launchers
The factor that's present in canon Star Trek and not in sto is size matters. Larger ships have more firepower. Defiant is powerful for its size, but it doesn't stand a chance one on one against Galaxy or Sovereign in the show. The same goes for Prometheus, it can take on Warbirds, but not a Tactical Cube.
Voyager is the only canon ship that really defies this trend. Its stats being so OP is the reason many trekkies don't consider Voyager to be canon at all.
Defiant had a quad phaser cannon, 3 phaser arrays and 6 torpedo tubes. Galaxy had 10 phaser arrays and 6 torpedo tubes. Voyager had 18 phaser arrays and 5 torpedo tubes, in a hull 1/4 the bulk of the Galaxy. A regular borg cube can decimate a small fleet, Voyager takes on a Tac cube one on one.
It used to bother trekkies how UPN (which was owned by BHT when it started producing the Voyager series in 1995) seems to defy boundaries set by past Trek series. As it merged with Viacom (which Paramount was a part of at the time) soon after, and then Viacom merged with CBS.
The direction of Voyager moved more towards science. Seven of Nine juryrigged an astromatrics (which is a hallmark of research ship, that the Nebula, more advanced cruisers like Sovereign, and even the tactically inept Nova had) out of a cargo bay. Various other science features that weren't mentioned in the beginning suddenly appeared out of nowhere. It was a change of heart by production. Yet Voyager still remained tactically strong.
Voyager was by far the most tactically powerful ship of its time, in a small frame, to the dismay of older trekkies. Then they juryrigged a bunch of science gizmos to make it a decent science ship. So... it's complicated.:P
The Enterprise was mostly ferrying colonists, diplomatic missions, delivering supplies, chasing after pirates, and leading task forces. Exploration missions not that much. In fact, the Enterprise was mainly sent on survey missions but diverted to other areas.
?
I'm not sure we watched the same show.
Also, ferrying colonists to new colonies? First contact diplomatic missions? Being diverted to an unexplored anomaly?
These are not exploration?
I think you can count on one hand the amount of pirates that are in TNG. The enterprise was involved in task forces also again, a number of times limited to one hand.
It seems you're remembering highlights, which is cool, but the show dealt with quite a bit of exploration.
Anyways, a better way to quote me and try and refute me would be to toss up some examples of a development team completely redoing a basic game function, like classes, to their MMO after it's 4th year anniversary. Or heck, even after it's 1st year anniversary.
I would say Star Wars Galaxies qualifies. But didn't they keep the same classes though? So even they didn't get rid of their class system. But I will concede they are an example of a game revamping some of its most basic and core functions post release.
Can you find any others?
Well, if they did class adjustments on par with what WoW does in its expansions (they've redesigned whole skill trees every time and radically redesigned them the last three expansions) but I think some things to keep in mind are that even WoW didn't do this kind of revamp in a vacuum.
I think it's far more likely for one of STO's expansions to feature damage and weapon oriented abilities for engineering and science BOs than see one ship completely re-purposed.
At best, you might lobby for one of the ship's variants or kit-bashes to get a different console ability and BO seating. But only if Cryptic gets to sell you a new ship to use it on. Like maybe a three pack of Intrepid, Galaxy, and Defiant with new hull textures, new BO variant loadouts, and new consoles.
I think this idea that they're going to keep tweaking existing ships to satisfy people who don't want to buy more ships to be silly.
I think in the long run, it would be likelier that they either do alternate loadouts of existing ships as new items to sell or that they start producing more damage oriented Sci and Eng BO skills. Personally, I could see an expansion level feature where they do something like reassign Beam Overload and Fire at Will to Eng BOs and torpedo abilities to Sci BOs. At least before I could see them bending over backwards to focus on improving existing Defiants, Intrepids, and Galaxies.
Also, ferrying colonists to new colonies? First contact diplomatic missions? Being diverted to an unexplored anomaly?
These are not exploration?
I think you can count on one hand the amount of pirates that are in TNG. The enterprise was involved in task forces also again, a number of times limited to one hand.
It seems you're remembering highlights, which is cool, but the show dealt with quite a bit of exploration.
Yes, the Enterprise-D did some exploring, I am not arguing against that, but the Enterprise did the majority of its time not exploring or by happenstance discovering new life forms.
Let's look at Season 1, the majority of the new species and any space exploration was not done as the primary mission. The only episode where they are exploring is the one where they find the mythical planet of Aldea. Season Two and Three is mostly diplomatic missions to non-first contact planets and conflict resolving. Rest of the series is pretty much the same.
I equate pirates to marauders to raiders and so on. a number of Ferengi marauders, klingon convicts, Baran's pirate crew, pakled, future convicts, lore's borg raiders, pirates from the episode where Picard goes Die Hard on them, bajoran raiders, maquis raiders, and there is probably more that I am forgetting.
The Enterprise leading or sent to a task force happened in BOBW, Chain of Command, Descent, All Good things, Redemption, and you got me on that one.
The design had never been even hinted at before Voyager (the show) was launched, yet they called it Intrepid class with the Voyager name.
Then again, the same thing happened with Enterprise, though I think everyone assumes that's the exception, since the Enterprise name holds special significance amongst Starfleet.
I always chalk it up to the class vessels being mostly used for things like refit planning and fatigue testing. In the TNG tech manual, the Galaxy was flying around the solar system before the Enterprise, but it was the Enterprise that really brought the operational Galaxy-class out into the universe.
This makes it seem like the engineers learned as they built the Galaxy, and so were able to make sure the Enterprise was as good as she should be. Perhaps they kept the Galaxy flying around Sector 001 so they could test various modifications before pushing them out to the real explorers when they return for minor refits. The space shuttle Columbia was always a little heavier than the later orbiters, so maybe the USS Galaxy had some elements that had changed before full production went into full swing.
Take a look at my Foundry missions! Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
Yes, the Enterprise-D did some exploring, I am not arguing against that, but the Enterprise did the majority of its time not exploring or by happenstance discovering new life forms.
Well it's mission certainly seemed to be one of exploration, as per the monologue:
Space... The final frontier... These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission: To explore strange new worlds... To seek out new life; new civilisations... To boldly go where no one has gone before.
It used to bother trekkies how UPN (which was owned by BHT when it started producing the Voyager series in 1995) seems to defy boundaries set by past Trek series. As it merged with Viacom (which Paramount was a part of at the time) soon after, and then Viacom merged with CBS.
Still incorrect. Chris-Craft Industries owned the majority share of UPN at launch, through its subsidiary BHC, with Viacom being the other major partner. Viacom forced Chris-Craft to sell its 50% stake in the network in 2000, becoming sole owner. If you think that the network produced the show, I invite you to find any mention of it in the closing credits.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
Well it's mission certainly seemed to be one of exploration, as per the monologue:
Space... The final frontier... These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission: To explore strange new worlds... To seek out new life; new civilisations... To boldly go where no one has gone before.
It doesn't really matter what the opening dialogue says, it what actually was shown.
also, the akira, the steamrunner, the sabre, and arguably the intrepid were all also designed at fighting the borg to name a few.
(...)
Not every friggin starship was designed to fight Borg after Wolf 359 :P
The only ship designed with that purpose in mind was the Defiant, and she was dropped. And when she finally fought the Borg, she pretty much failed - naturally. It's a frigate. Sending one of those against a Cube it not a good idea. Just because we saw a ship in FC's opening doesn't mean it was designed to fight that cube. And why the hell the Intrepid would be build for cracking cubes is a mystery. Just because Voxager solo'd the Borg collective in VOY, a show that was stated by Mr. Braga himself should not be consistent to not make it too complicated for people unfamilliar with the franchise?
The Sovereign was also not designed to do that. Just because Picard saved the day in the Ent-E does not say this was the ship's purpose.
As much as you want to project your wargames on Star Trek, it doesn't work that way. Starfleet is not the US space navy, it's officers are not Space Marines, this is stated everywhere in the IP. But all of that is handwaved away by stating "only because the budget didn't allow that" or "they are all in denial, I KNOW they are WAAAGH machines!"...
It doesn't really matter what the opening dialogue says, it what actually was shown.
I suspect a series depicting the usual duty of a ship would bomb with the audience. If the Defiant was shown to collect dust the majority of the show people surely wouldn't assume it's the bestest ship evar concieved by the united states starfleet.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It doesn't really matter what the opening dialogue says, it what actually was shown.
Its originally set mission is going to be something the ship is suited for, regardless of what is thrown at it. Just like Voyager wasn't sent by Starfleet to cross the Delta Quadrant.
Yeah, that always bugged me. Voyager was clearly a prototype "show how much tech you can cram into a ship" design. The design had never been even hinted at before Voyager (the show) was launched, yet they called it Intrepid class with the Voyager name.
Then again, the same thing happened with Enterprise, though I think everyone assumes that's the exception, since the Enterprise name holds special significance amongst Starfleet.
Whatever, it's a show. Naming conventions are often an afterthought for most writers, even in the generally nitpicky science fiction genre.
Question: There was an episode of TNG where Geordi is trying to boost the efficiency of some subsystem. Nothing important, but he and an academy friend aboard the Intrepid had it as a little contest. That implies that the ship was in use, maybe as a test bed, but in use.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Question: There was an episode of TNG where Geordi is trying to boost the efficiency of some subsystem. Nothing important, but he and an academy friend aboard the Intrepid had it as a little contest. That implies that the ship was in use, maybe as a test bed, but in use.
Yeah, that always bugged me. Voyager was clearly a prototype "show how much tech you can cram into a ship" design. The design had never been even hinted at before Voyager (the show) was launched, yet they called it Intrepid class with the Voyager name.
Then again, the same thing happened with Enterprise, though I think everyone assumes that's the exception, since the Enterprise name holds special significance amongst Starfleet.
Whatever, it's a show. Naming conventions are often an afterthought for most writers, even in the generally nitpicky science fiction genre.
Voyager wasn't the prototype, the USS Intrepid was. As per Starfleets usual new class of ship the first ship is given the name of the class so USS Galaxy was the first , USS Sovereign , USS Excelsior. Those ships are usually the test bed.
In Voyager, I heard how Voyager itself was designed for tactical actions.
It's kinda odd to me, however.
I'd like to see the game disolve the class system to a user based dynamic, so that way I could modify any ship I want to fit my playstyle. but I guess its a long way off.
Well, in the Documentary that was done to introduce the Voyager series, they did say only that Voyager was designed to get into and out of places a Galaxy Class couldn't.
They were concerned or at least mindful of the fact that the 'Enterprise" in all her guises, was slowly getting bigger, and bigger, so when it came time to create another 'iconic" named ship, they decided to go smaller and sleeker ...
I'm not sure that means Voyager (or the Intrepid class in general) were "designed" specifically as Tactical ships, but certainly she is meant meant to be able to "dance" more effectively than the Enterprise.
I'd think, to keep the people happy, that Crytpic would have released a "Triple Pack" of 'Long Range' Class ships by now ...
Perhaps the Intrepid as the Engi heavy version, the Cochrane as the Sci heavy, and the Discovery as the Tac Variant.
Include perhaps:
Astrometrics Console = +Spd +Turn (Warp and Impulse) due to improved navigation
Gel Packs = - Cooldown on Sci Abilities + Power Transfer rate due to faster computer
Ablative Plating = Short Immunity or Improved Defense VS. Plasma and Kinetic (Anti-Borg)
Not every friggin starship was designed to fight Borg after Wolf 359 :P
The only ship designed with that purpose in mind was the Defiant, and she was dropped. And when she finally fought the Borg, she pretty much failed - naturally. It's a frigate. Sending one of those against a Cube it not a good idea. Just because we saw a ship in FC's opening doesn't mean it was designed to fight that cube. And why the hell the Intrepid would be build for cracking cubes is a mystery. Just because Voxager solo'd the Borg collective in VOY, a show that was stated by Mr. Braga himself should not be consistent to not make it too complicated for people unfamilliar with the franchise?
The Sovereign was also not designed to do that. Just because Picard saved the day in the Ent-E does not say this was the ship's purpose.
As much as you want to project your wargames on Star Trek, it doesn't work that way. Starfleet is not the US space navy, it's officers are not Space Marines, this is stated everywhere in the IP. But all of that is handwaved away by stating "only because the budget didn't allow that" or "they are all in denial, I KNOW they are WAAAGH machines!"...
I suspect a series depicting the usual duty of a ship would bomb with the audience. If the Defiant was shown to collect dust the majority of the show people surely wouldn't assume it's the bestest ship evar concieved by the united states starfleet.
I agree with most of that.
I only mind the Idea the defiant failed...
1. At Wolf 359 the Borg seemed to 1-hit every SF vessel, no matter how big.
Designing the vessel small to avoid (or lower the chance of) being hit in the first placs and put as many weapons as possible on it makes a lot of sense to me.
2. I do not believe the Defiant was build to be used alone. No matter how much Fanboys dislike that comparison, the Defiant is a essentially a Federation Bird of Prey. I thing it was designed to be used in groups of multiple Defaint vessels, which only wasn't possible at this point because the project was dropped (until much later).
In battles the Defiant was mostly grouped with other light vessels (Mirandas) and the only time we saw the Defiant class outside FC and DS9 was the Prometheus episode where it was a set of 2.
3. Beeing almost killed doesn't mean having failed as a Borg defense. The Defiant made it so far. We only saw a small (and very fast) fraction of that battle.
According to novelization and Screenplay (non canon admiralty) the first contact battle went of for over a day before the Enterprise arrived. The flagship didn't make it that long. A lot of other ships had been burned.
Being designed to fight the Borg to be able to take a cube alone, nor does it mean to be able to turn the battle around nor does it mean being invincible towards Borg attacks. The Borg were still tactically absolutely superior.
Beeing designed to fight the borg only means to make the best out of what is there, and I believe in that term the ship did succeed.
After all the project was obviously picked up again later, since we saw more Defiants.
I agree with most of that.
I only mind the Idea the defiant failed...
1. At Wolf 359 the Borg seemed to 1-hit every SF vessel, no matter how big.
Designing the vessel small to avoid (or lower the chance of) being hit in the first placs and put as many weapons as possible on it makes a lot of sense to me.
2. I do not believe the Defiant was build to be used alone. No matter how much Fanboys dislike that comparison, the Defiant is a essentially a Federation Bird of Prey. I thing it was designed to be used in groups of multiple Defaint vessels, which only wasn't possible at this point because the project was dropped (until much later).
In battles the Defiant was mostly grouped with other light vessels (Mirandas) and the only time we saw the Defiant class outside FC and DS9 was the Prometheus episode where it was a set of 2.
3. Beeing almost killed doesn't mean having failed as a Borg defense. The Defiant made it so far. We only saw a small (and very fast) fraction of that battle.
According to novelization and Screenplay (non canon admiralty) the first contact battle went of for over a day before the Enterprise arrived. The flagship didn't make it that long. A lot of other ships had been burned.
Being designed to fight the Borg to be able to take a cube alone, nor does it mean to be able to turn the battle around nor does it mean being invincible towards Borg attacks. The Borg were still tactically absolutely superior.
Beeing designed to fight the borg only means to make the best out of what is there, and I believe in that term the ship did succeed.
After all the project was obviously picked up again later, since we saw more Defiants.
The Defiant being there from the start is sort of canon. You can hear the Defiant being ordered to standby and Worf responding when the Enterprise starts listening to the fleet just before the fleet engages the cube. We have no idea when the Defiant actually engaged, but it was there when the fleet encountered the Borg.
As for why the Defiant initially failed, it was a small, overpowered ship that was temperamental. It also required, to run effectively, to have certain things set that are normally not allowed on other Starfleet vessels. It was largely O'Brian and Sisko who made the Defiant class a viable ship with a lot of tinkering.
The Defiant being there from the start is sort of canon. You can hear the Defiant being ordered to standby and Worf responding when the Enterprise starts listening to the fleet just before the fleet engages the cube. We have no idea when the Defiant actually engaged, but it was there when the fleet encountered the Borg.
As for why the Defiant initially failed, it was a small, overpowered ship that was temperamental. It also required, to run effectively, to have certain things set that are normally not allowed on other Starfleet vessels. It was largely O'Brian and Sisko who made the Defiant class a viable ship with a lot of tinkering.
I think the Defiant is ordered to make an attack run along with the USS Bozeman though its hard to hear in the audio of FC. That said the Defiant probably arrived late to the battle since it had to come all the way from DS9.
It might of faired better to if it had more of the A team crew there and not just Worf. Though it is kind of funny that the Borg waited until Sisko couldn't go (it was when he was taking Eddington through the badlands) before they attacked.
I think the Defiant is ordered to make an attack run along with the USS Bozeman though its hard to hear in the audio of FC. That said the Defiant probably arrived late to the battle since it had to come all the way from DS9.
It might of faired better to if it had more of the A team crew there and not just Worf. Though it is kind of funny that the Borg waited until Sisko couldn't go (it was when he was taking Eddington through the badlands) before they attacked.
I did not question it being there from the start?
Thats my point it survived more then 24 hours of hit and run with the cube.
And the Defaint was an unfinished prototype when she came to DS9 in season 3, of course she needed more tuning then other vessels.
I think the Defiant is ordered to make an attack run along with the USS Bozeman though its hard to hear in the audio of FC. That said the Defiant probably arrived late to the battle since it had to come all the way from DS9.
It might of faired better to if it had more of the A team crew there and not just Worf. Though it is kind of funny that the Borg waited until Sisko couldn't go (it was when he was taking Eddington through the badlands) before they attacked.
I always thought they should have includet O'Brien into first contact.
He was originally a TNG character so it would make sense to include him into a TNG movie even with a minor role and he was on the Ent D during the best part of both worlds, so he has some experience with the Borg, he's the main Engineer of the Defiant so it would make perfectly sense canon wise to have him there.
It might of faired better to if it had more of the A team crew there and not just Worf. Though it is kind of funny that the Borg waited until Sisko couldn't go (it was when he was taking Eddington through the badlands) before they attacked.
I think i will quote SF debris here:
"we are the borg, lower your shields and surrender you vessel, resistance is..........*whispers* we're sure he is not here right....right? *talks normally* Resistance is futile
I agree with most of that.
I only mind the Idea the defiant failed...
1. At Wolf 359 the Borg seemed to 1-hit every SF vessel, no matter how big.
Designing the vessel small to avoid (or lower the chance of) being hit in the first placs and put as many weapons as possible on it makes a lot of sense to me.
2. I do not believe the Defiant was build to be used alone. No matter how much Fanboys dislike that comparison, the Defiant is a essentially a Federation Bird of Prey. I thing it was designed to be used in groups of multiple Defaint vessels, which only wasn't possible at this point because the project was dropped (until much later).
In battles the Defiant was mostly grouped with other light vessels (Mirandas) and the only time we saw the Defiant class outside FC and DS9 was the Prometheus episode where it was a set of 2.
3. Beeing almost killed doesn't mean having failed as a Borg defense. The Defiant made it so far. We only saw a small (and very fast) fraction of that battle.
According to novelization and Screenplay (non canon admiralty) the first contact battle went of for over a day before the Enterprise arrived. The flagship didn't make it that long. A lot of other ships had been burned.
Being designed to fight the Borg to be able to take a cube alone, nor does it mean to be able to turn the battle around nor does it mean being invincible towards Borg attacks. The Borg were still tactically absolutely superior.
Beeing designed to fight the borg only means to make the best out of what is there, and I believe in that term the ship did succeed.
After all the project was obviously picked up again later, since we saw more Defiants.
From some of the background material i read it made the defiant out to be an escort vessel pure and simple, To protect convoys , small crew many weapons, little in the way of science eqquipment
Makes perfect sense, Its the answer to making sure civilian ships are kept safe ( since starfleet is the military and exploration combined however much they imply otherwise) and they have a duty to keep shipping lanes safe , but they don't want proper science ships to be diverted from their jobs
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
In Voyager, I heard how Voyager itself was designed for tactical actions.
It's kinda odd to me, however.
I'd like to see the game disolve the class system to a user based dynamic, so that way I could modify any ship I want to fit my playstyle. but I guess its a long way off.
I would have been happy if the Intrepid received the boff layout of the Nova.
I'd think, to keep the people happy, that Crytpic would have released a "Triple Pack" of 'Long Range' Class ships by now ...
Perhaps the Intrepid as the Engi heavy version, the Cochrane as the Sci heavy, and the Discovery as the Tac Variant.
Include perhaps:
Astrometrics Console = +Spd +Turn (Warp and Impulse) due to improved navigation
Gel Packs = - Cooldown on Sci Abilities + Power Transfer rate due to faster computer
Ablative Plating = Short Immunity or Improved Defense VS. Plasma and Kinetic (Anti-Borg)
Not every friggin starship was designed to fight Borg after Wolf 359 :P
The only ship designed with that purpose in mind was the Defiant, and she was dropped. And when she finally fought the Borg, she pretty much failed - naturally. It's a frigate. Sending one of those against a Cube it not a good idea. Just because we saw a ship in FC's opening doesn't mean it was designed to fight that cube. And why the hell the Intrepid would be build for cracking cubes is a mystery. Just because Voxager solo'd the Borg collective in VOY, a show that was stated by Mr. Braga himself should not be consistent to not make it too complicated for people unfamilliar with the franchise?
The Sovereign was also not designed to do that. Just because Picard saved the day in the Ent-E does not say this was the ship's purpose.
As much as you want to project your wargames on Star Trek, it doesn't work that way. Starfleet is not the US space navy, it's officers are not Space Marines, this is stated everywhere in the IP. But all of that is handwaved away by stating "only because the budget didn't allow that" or "they are all in denial, I KNOW they are WAAAGH machines!"...
I suspect a series depicting the usual duty of a ship would bomb with the audience. If the Defiant was shown to collect dust the majority of the show people surely wouldn't assume it's the bestest ship evar concieved by the united states starfleet.
I didn't say every ship was... that was a few of the ships.. I didn't say the nova was designed to fight the borg.. I didn't say the luna was designed to fight the borg.. but, as evident by the amount of weapons each of those ships carried, and the sheer number of them at the sector 001 encounter with the cube, one can deduce they were specifically designed with the borg in mind.. sure, they made it so they had other usefull skills too, but those were designed with defense and offense in mind..
getting back to the intrepid class. I just finished watching the first six episodes.. three times in the first episode (part 1 and 2) the ship was praised to be tactically superior in someway of other Starfleet vessels. weather by menueverablity, or by streangth. this was stated by stotty (however you spell her name, janeway, and tuvok. not directly, but it hinted at it..
then... almost every episode after it has them talking about how the ship was not designed for longrange missions, they are missing equipment for a diagnoses, or they don't have the appropriate facility to investigate something..
further more, belana has twice now had to set up portable equipment in engineering to investigate a phenomena.
so just in the first 5 episodes, they have not had access to an astrometrics lab, a stellar cartography lab, or a biology lab (all were something mentioned as something they did not have, and needed.
also, janeway keeps making reference to impossible odds, personel they do not have (mostly science type (there was mention of a counselor, medical personel, and specific scientific personel, including a biologist (they make due with the DR. , I believe a physicist (which janeway and belana play friendly to make up for the lack there of), and others..
I am not projecting any sort of war games scenario.. I simply stated that after wolf 359, Starfleet had a temporary change of business. they were shown how woefully underprepaired they were for anything as far as a fight goes.. look at the dominion war..
all im saying is that Starfleet started taking the tactical side of things more seriously.. there is evidence of it.. the quantum torpedo, the phaser canons (which are canon for sabres as well, as seen in the dominion war).
yes, the enterprise E's primary mission wasn't to go and seek out life and destroy it, but it was the first ship to carry quantum torpedoes, it was built with the most weaponry ever put on a star ship, and was given the agility of a ship half its size..
while not at war, these ships serve other funtions, (galaxy, sovereign, ambassador, excelsior, etc) make up the exploration and diplomatic front. then other ships like the akira and intrepid and sabre, and steam runner all probably patrolled the borders, put out brush fires, and stoped illegal activity.
there is evidence of Starfleet starting to take on a more defensive role after the borg encounter, not even wolf 359, Shelby talks about how they were preparing to design fleets of ships to counter threats. picard speaks of it, even makes the comment, "remember when we were explorers".
im not saying its right. but im saying that's how it is..
I just watched the first 5 episodes of voyager between last night and tonight. I will be watching more, and posting in here every day, bringing updates as to the tactical nature of the intrepid class.in episode 5, janeway makes the comment that the ship and its crew is not equipped to handle all the things they are doing. she states it was not what the ship was designed to do, and that the crew compliment was not ideal. she was speaking with chakotay.
im only five episodes in, and so far, the official canon review is tactical about 5, exploration, maybe 1.. I already know of a handful of missions that are gonna end the debate.
ps, this will be the third time since the turn of the new year, that I will watch this show from start to finish.. shoot me now lol.. I love it, but too much of anything is too much lol...
don't take my argument condescending or hurtfull, I am simply trying to state the facts. I see both arguments, but when I see the science argument, its hanging on to hopes, not actual fact from the show.
I only fight this so hard, cause, I can say I know for a fact, and have the time spent with watching the show to back it up.. I doubt even 10 percent of the people posting in this thread can claim to have watched voyager as much as I have.
From some of the background material i read it made the defiant out to be an escort vessel pure and simple, To protect convoys , small crew many weapons, little in the way of science eqquipment
Makes perfect sense, Its the answer to making sure civilian ships are kept safe ( since starfleet is the military and exploration combined however much they imply otherwise) and they have a duty to keep shipping lanes safe , but they don't want proper science ships to be diverted from their jobs
From the actual SERIES it states clearly that the Defaint was OFFICIALY called an escort because the federation does not build warships (or at least didn't at this point, which is why, hence the topic, the intrepid, which was build arround the same time, certainly was no tactical ship), but inofficialy it was no less then the federations first approach in a warship and build to fight the Borg. That's how The Sisko, the guy who designed the f*** thing, explained its function in "the search, part one" the third season pilot of ds9 where the ship appeared for the first time.
No background material can beat canon
Ensign Tactical, Ensign Science, Ensign Engineering and Lt. Commander Science. (It also only had 2 fore weapons and 2 aft weapons)
The Intrepid had:
Lt. Science, Lt. Engineering, Lt. Tactical and Commander Science.
With 3 weapons fore and 3 weapons aft.
So I'm just guessing that this is just another crazy attempt to smoosh a Lt. Commander Tactical station onto another hero ship?
Which other hero ship has a Lt. Cmdr. tac station besides the Defiant?
And I was talking about the Fleet Nova.. Anything not end game is not worth talking about.
To be fair, the Intrepid boff layout wouldn't be so bad if science meant anything in the game besides spamming GW's...
getting back to the intrepid class. I just finished watching the first six episodes.. three times in the first episode (part 1 and 2) the ship was praised to be tactically superior in someway of other Starfleet vessels. weather by menueverablity, or by streangth. this was stated by stotty (however you spell her name, janeway, and tuvok. not directly, but it hinted at it..
then... almost every episode after it has them talking about how the ship was not designed for longrange missions, they are missing equipment for a diagnoses, or they don't have the appropriate facility to investigate something..
further more, belana has twice now had to set up portable equipment in engineering to investigate a phenomena.
so just in the first 5 episodes, they have not had access to an astrometrics lab, a stellar cartography lab, or a biology lab (all were something mentioned as something they did not have, and needed.
Not having these things doesn't mean the ship wasn't designed for exploration. Just not for the kind of exploration that would require those things. Why do you assume everything must have every piece of equipment possibly used for exploration to be an exploration ship? Not every ship needs to be designed to explore the exact same things, that's kind of redundant on if you plan on building smaller, more purpose built ships.
I just watched the first 5 episodes of voyager between last night and tonight. I will be watching more, and posting in here every day, bringing updates as to the tactical nature of the intrepid class.in episode 5, janeway makes the comment that the ship and its crew is not equipped to handle all the things they are doing. she states it was not what the ship was designed to do, and that the crew compliment was not ideal. she was speaking with chakotay.
im only five episodes in, and so far, the official canon review is tactical about 5, exploration, maybe 1.. I already know of a handful of missions that are gonna end the debate.
Not really. Starfleet designs ships to explore. These ships are also designed to fight because exploration is dangerous. Doesn't change that the ships are built to explore first, nor does it mean that they can't be used in wartime to fit more tactical roles or peace time in more policing roles since that would also be considered in their design. The fact that the exploration ships were becoming more heavily armed doesn't change the fact that they were still exploration ships. It just means that Starfleet has realised the galaxy is a more dangerous place than they thought previously.
Actual canon science ships tend to go in after the explorer ships have determined that 1) there's something interesting that requires further studying and 2) it's safe for a ship geared more towards study than combat to be there.
Nothing you've said so far has really shown that the Intrepid class was designed primarily for anything other than exploration. I doubt that anything you've found in the show will change that since being designed for exploration doesn't mean it wasn't also designed to fight. Also doesn't mean that in this game the Intrepid class can't be a science ship in this game since that really means nothing.
Which other hero ship has a Lt. Cmdr. tac station besides the Defiant?
In the past two weeks there has been a post-pocalypse crying out for the Galaxy X to get a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
So now I'm reading this thread, asking for the Intrepid to get ...
a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
What build does everyone want to cram onto each ship that requires this BOFF? I'm confounded by how it seems a Lt. Commander Tactical is the salve that every ship in this game needs.
And I was talking about the Fleet Nova.
Which is the one with ... the Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
Comments
The Enterprise was mostly ferrying colonists, diplomatic missions, delivering supplies, chasing after pirates, and leading task forces. Exploration missions not that much. In fact, the Enterprise was mainly sent on survey missions but diverted to other areas.
The factor that's present in canon Star Trek and not in sto is size matters. Larger ships have more firepower. Defiant is powerful for its size, but it doesn't stand a chance one on one against Galaxy or Sovereign in the show. The same goes for Prometheus, it can take on Warbirds, but not a Tactical Cube.
Voyager is the only canon ship that really defies this trend. Its stats being so OP is the reason many trekkies don't consider Voyager to be canon at all.
Defiant had a quad phaser cannon, 3 phaser arrays and 6 torpedo tubes. Galaxy had 10 phaser arrays and 6 torpedo tubes. Voyager had 18 phaser arrays and 5 torpedo tubes, in a hull 1/4 the bulk of the Galaxy. A regular borg cube can decimate a small fleet, Voyager takes on a Tac cube one on one.
It used to bother trekkies how UPN (which was owned by BHT when it started producing the Voyager series in 1995) seems to defy boundaries set by past Trek series. As it merged with Viacom (which Paramount was a part of at the time) soon after, and then Viacom merged with CBS.
The direction of Voyager moved more towards science. Seven of Nine juryrigged an astromatrics (which is a hallmark of research ship, that the Nebula, more advanced cruisers like Sovereign, and even the tactically inept Nova had) out of a cargo bay. Various other science features that weren't mentioned in the beginning suddenly appeared out of nowhere. It was a change of heart by production. Yet Voyager still remained tactically strong.
Voyager was by far the most tactically powerful ship of its time, in a small frame, to the dismay of older trekkies. Then they juryrigged a bunch of science gizmos to make it a decent science ship. So... it's complicated.:P
?
I'm not sure we watched the same show.
Also, ferrying colonists to new colonies? First contact diplomatic missions? Being diverted to an unexplored anomaly?
These are not exploration?
I think you can count on one hand the amount of pirates that are in TNG. The enterprise was involved in task forces also again, a number of times limited to one hand.
It seems you're remembering highlights, which is cool, but the show dealt with quite a bit of exploration.
Well, if they did class adjustments on par with what WoW does in its expansions (they've redesigned whole skill trees every time and radically redesigned them the last three expansions) but I think some things to keep in mind are that even WoW didn't do this kind of revamp in a vacuum.
I think it's far more likely for one of STO's expansions to feature damage and weapon oriented abilities for engineering and science BOs than see one ship completely re-purposed.
At best, you might lobby for one of the ship's variants or kit-bashes to get a different console ability and BO seating. But only if Cryptic gets to sell you a new ship to use it on. Like maybe a three pack of Intrepid, Galaxy, and Defiant with new hull textures, new BO variant loadouts, and new consoles.
I think this idea that they're going to keep tweaking existing ships to satisfy people who don't want to buy more ships to be silly.
I think in the long run, it would be likelier that they either do alternate loadouts of existing ships as new items to sell or that they start producing more damage oriented Sci and Eng BO skills. Personally, I could see an expansion level feature where they do something like reassign Beam Overload and Fire at Will to Eng BOs and torpedo abilities to Sci BOs. At least before I could see them bending over backwards to focus on improving existing Defiants, Intrepids, and Galaxies.
Yes, the Enterprise-D did some exploring, I am not arguing against that, but the Enterprise did the majority of its time not exploring or by happenstance discovering new life forms.
Let's look at Season 1, the majority of the new species and any space exploration was not done as the primary mission. The only episode where they are exploring is the one where they find the mythical planet of Aldea. Season Two and Three is mostly diplomatic missions to non-first contact planets and conflict resolving. Rest of the series is pretty much the same.
I equate pirates to marauders to raiders and so on. a number of Ferengi marauders, klingon convicts, Baran's pirate crew, pakled, future convicts, lore's borg raiders, pirates from the episode where Picard goes Die Hard on them, bajoran raiders, maquis raiders, and there is probably more that I am forgetting.
The Enterprise leading or sent to a task force happened in BOBW, Chain of Command, Descent, All Good things, Redemption, and you got me on that one.
I always chalk it up to the class vessels being mostly used for things like refit planning and fatigue testing. In the TNG tech manual, the Galaxy was flying around the solar system before the Enterprise, but it was the Enterprise that really brought the operational Galaxy-class out into the universe.
This makes it seem like the engineers learned as they built the Galaxy, and so were able to make sure the Enterprise was as good as she should be. Perhaps they kept the Galaxy flying around Sector 001 so they could test various modifications before pushing them out to the real explorers when they return for minor refits. The space shuttle Columbia was always a little heavier than the later orbiters, so maybe the USS Galaxy had some elements that had changed before full production went into full swing.
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Well it's mission certainly seemed to be one of exploration, as per the monologue:
Space... The final frontier... These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission: To explore strange new worlds... To seek out new life; new civilisations... To boldly go where no one has gone before.
Still incorrect. Chris-Craft Industries owned the majority share of UPN at launch, through its subsidiary BHC, with Viacom being the other major partner. Viacom forced Chris-Craft to sell its 50% stake in the network in 2000, becoming sole owner. If you think that the network produced the show, I invite you to find any mention of it in the closing credits.
It doesn't really matter what the opening dialogue says, it what actually was shown.
Not every friggin starship was designed to fight Borg after Wolf 359 :P
The only ship designed with that purpose in mind was the Defiant, and she was dropped. And when she finally fought the Borg, she pretty much failed - naturally. It's a frigate. Sending one of those against a Cube it not a good idea. Just because we saw a ship in FC's opening doesn't mean it was designed to fight that cube. And why the hell the Intrepid would be build for cracking cubes is a mystery. Just because Voxager solo'd the Borg collective in VOY, a show that was stated by Mr. Braga himself should not be consistent to not make it too complicated for people unfamilliar with the franchise?
The Sovereign was also not designed to do that. Just because Picard saved the day in the Ent-E does not say this was the ship's purpose.
As much as you want to project your wargames on Star Trek, it doesn't work that way. Starfleet is not the US space navy, it's officers are not Space Marines, this is stated everywhere in the IP. But all of that is handwaved away by stating "only because the budget didn't allow that" or "they are all in denial, I KNOW they are WAAAGH machines!"...
I suspect a series depicting the usual duty of a ship would bomb with the audience. If the Defiant was shown to collect dust the majority of the show people surely wouldn't assume it's the bestest ship evar concieved by the united states starfleet.
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Its originally set mission is going to be something the ship is suited for, regardless of what is thrown at it. Just like Voyager wasn't sent by Starfleet to cross the Delta Quadrant.
Keep trying though.
Question: There was an episode of TNG where Geordi is trying to boost the efficiency of some subsystem. Nothing important, but he and an academy friend aboard the Intrepid had it as a little contest. That implies that the ship was in use, maybe as a test bed, but in use.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Voyager wasn't the prototype, the USS Intrepid was. As per Starfleets usual new class of ship the first ship is given the name of the class so USS Galaxy was the first , USS Sovereign , USS Excelsior. Those ships are usually the test bed.
what happen to Landing the Intrepid Class Starship? can see it here= http://www.startrek.com/watch_video/landing-the-intrepid-class-starship-a-documentary
They were concerned or at least mindful of the fact that the 'Enterprise" in all her guises, was slowly getting bigger, and bigger, so when it came time to create another 'iconic" named ship, they decided to go smaller and sleeker ...
I'm not sure that means Voyager (or the Intrepid class in general) were "designed" specifically as Tactical ships, but certainly she is meant meant to be able to "dance" more effectively than the Enterprise.
I'd think, to keep the people happy, that Crytpic would have released a "Triple Pack" of 'Long Range' Class ships by now ...
Perhaps the Intrepid as the Engi heavy version, the Cochrane as the Sci heavy, and the Discovery as the Tac Variant.
Include perhaps:
Astrometrics Console = +Spd +Turn (Warp and Impulse) due to improved navigation
Gel Packs = - Cooldown on Sci Abilities + Power Transfer rate due to faster computer
Ablative Plating = Short Immunity or Improved Defense VS. Plasma and Kinetic (Anti-Borg)
I agree with most of that.
I only mind the Idea the defiant failed...
1. At Wolf 359 the Borg seemed to 1-hit every SF vessel, no matter how big.
Designing the vessel small to avoid (or lower the chance of) being hit in the first placs and put as many weapons as possible on it makes a lot of sense to me.
2. I do not believe the Defiant was build to be used alone. No matter how much Fanboys dislike that comparison, the Defiant is a essentially a Federation Bird of Prey. I thing it was designed to be used in groups of multiple Defaint vessels, which only wasn't possible at this point because the project was dropped (until much later).
In battles the Defiant was mostly grouped with other light vessels (Mirandas) and the only time we saw the Defiant class outside FC and DS9 was the Prometheus episode where it was a set of 2.
3. Beeing almost killed doesn't mean having failed as a Borg defense. The Defiant made it so far. We only saw a small (and very fast) fraction of that battle.
According to novelization and Screenplay (non canon admiralty) the first contact battle went of for over a day before the Enterprise arrived. The flagship didn't make it that long. A lot of other ships had been burned.
Being designed to fight the Borg to be able to take a cube alone, nor does it mean to be able to turn the battle around nor does it mean being invincible towards Borg attacks. The Borg were still tactically absolutely superior.
Beeing designed to fight the borg only means to make the best out of what is there, and I believe in that term the ship did succeed.
After all the project was obviously picked up again later, since we saw more Defiants.
The Defiant being there from the start is sort of canon. You can hear the Defiant being ordered to standby and Worf responding when the Enterprise starts listening to the fleet just before the fleet engages the cube. We have no idea when the Defiant actually engaged, but it was there when the fleet encountered the Borg.
As for why the Defiant initially failed, it was a small, overpowered ship that was temperamental. It also required, to run effectively, to have certain things set that are normally not allowed on other Starfleet vessels. It was largely O'Brian and Sisko who made the Defiant class a viable ship with a lot of tinkering.
I think the Defiant is ordered to make an attack run along with the USS Bozeman though its hard to hear in the audio of FC. That said the Defiant probably arrived late to the battle since it had to come all the way from DS9.
It might of faired better to if it had more of the A team crew there and not just Worf. Though it is kind of funny that the Borg waited until Sisko couldn't go (it was when he was taking Eddington through the badlands) before they attacked.
I did not question it being there from the start?
Thats my point it survived more then 24 hours of hit and run with the cube.
And the Defaint was an unfinished prototype when she came to DS9 in season 3, of course she needed more tuning then other vessels.
I always thought they should have includet O'Brien into first contact.
He was originally a TNG character so it would make sense to include him into a TNG movie even with a minor role and he was on the Ent D during the best part of both worlds, so he has some experience with the Borg, he's the main Engineer of the Defiant so it would make perfectly sense canon wise to have him there.
I think i will quote SF debris here:
"we are the borg, lower your shields and surrender you vessel, resistance is..........*whispers* we're sure he is not here right....right? *talks normally* Resistance is futile
From some of the background material i read it made the defiant out to be an escort vessel pure and simple, To protect convoys , small crew many weapons, little in the way of science eqquipment
Makes perfect sense, Its the answer to making sure civilian ships are kept safe ( since starfleet is the military and exploration combined however much they imply otherwise) and they have a duty to keep shipping lanes safe , but they don't want proper science ships to be diverted from their jobs
I would have been happy if the Intrepid received the boff layout of the Nova.
Ohh I like this!
I didn't say every ship was... that was a few of the ships.. I didn't say the nova was designed to fight the borg.. I didn't say the luna was designed to fight the borg.. but, as evident by the amount of weapons each of those ships carried, and the sheer number of them at the sector 001 encounter with the cube, one can deduce they were specifically designed with the borg in mind.. sure, they made it so they had other usefull skills too, but those were designed with defense and offense in mind..
getting back to the intrepid class. I just finished watching the first six episodes.. three times in the first episode (part 1 and 2) the ship was praised to be tactically superior in someway of other Starfleet vessels. weather by menueverablity, or by streangth. this was stated by stotty (however you spell her name, janeway, and tuvok. not directly, but it hinted at it..
then... almost every episode after it has them talking about how the ship was not designed for longrange missions, they are missing equipment for a diagnoses, or they don't have the appropriate facility to investigate something..
further more, belana has twice now had to set up portable equipment in engineering to investigate a phenomena.
so just in the first 5 episodes, they have not had access to an astrometrics lab, a stellar cartography lab, or a biology lab (all were something mentioned as something they did not have, and needed.
also, janeway keeps making reference to impossible odds, personel they do not have (mostly science type (there was mention of a counselor, medical personel, and specific scientific personel, including a biologist (they make due with the DR. , I believe a physicist (which janeway and belana play friendly to make up for the lack there of), and others..
I am not projecting any sort of war games scenario.. I simply stated that after wolf 359, Starfleet had a temporary change of business. they were shown how woefully underprepaired they were for anything as far as a fight goes.. look at the dominion war..
all im saying is that Starfleet started taking the tactical side of things more seriously.. there is evidence of it.. the quantum torpedo, the phaser canons (which are canon for sabres as well, as seen in the dominion war).
yes, the enterprise E's primary mission wasn't to go and seek out life and destroy it, but it was the first ship to carry quantum torpedoes, it was built with the most weaponry ever put on a star ship, and was given the agility of a ship half its size..
while not at war, these ships serve other funtions, (galaxy, sovereign, ambassador, excelsior, etc) make up the exploration and diplomatic front. then other ships like the akira and intrepid and sabre, and steam runner all probably patrolled the borders, put out brush fires, and stoped illegal activity.
there is evidence of Starfleet starting to take on a more defensive role after the borg encounter, not even wolf 359, Shelby talks about how they were preparing to design fleets of ships to counter threats. picard speaks of it, even makes the comment, "remember when we were explorers".
im not saying its right. but im saying that's how it is..
I just watched the first 5 episodes of voyager between last night and tonight. I will be watching more, and posting in here every day, bringing updates as to the tactical nature of the intrepid class.in episode 5, janeway makes the comment that the ship and its crew is not equipped to handle all the things they are doing. she states it was not what the ship was designed to do, and that the crew compliment was not ideal. she was speaking with chakotay.
im only five episodes in, and so far, the official canon review is tactical about 5, exploration, maybe 1.. I already know of a handful of missions that are gonna end the debate.
ps, this will be the third time since the turn of the new year, that I will watch this show from start to finish.. shoot me now lol.. I love it, but too much of anything is too much lol...
don't take my argument condescending or hurtfull, I am simply trying to state the facts. I see both arguments, but when I see the science argument, its hanging on to hopes, not actual fact from the show.
I only fight this so hard, cause, I can say I know for a fact, and have the time spent with watching the show to back it up.. I doubt even 10 percent of the people posting in this thread can claim to have watched voyager as much as I have.
From the actual SERIES it states clearly that the Defaint was OFFICIALY called an escort because the federation does not build warships (or at least didn't at this point, which is why, hence the topic, the intrepid, which was build arround the same time, certainly was no tactical ship), but inofficialy it was no less then the federations first approach in a warship and build to fight the Borg. That's how The Sisko, the guy who designed the f*** thing, explained its function in "the search, part one" the third season pilot of ds9 where the ship appeared for the first time.
No background material can beat canon
When the game launched the Nova had:
Ensign Tactical, Ensign Science, Ensign Engineering and Lt. Commander Science. (It also only had 2 fore weapons and 2 aft weapons)
The Intrepid had:
Lt. Science, Lt. Engineering, Lt. Tactical and Commander Science.
With 3 weapons fore and 3 weapons aft.
So I'm just guessing that this is just another crazy attempt to smoosh a Lt. Commander Tactical station onto another hero ship?
Which other hero ship has a Lt. Cmdr. tac station besides the Defiant?
And I was talking about the Fleet Nova.. Anything not end game is not worth talking about.
To be fair, the Intrepid boff layout wouldn't be so bad if science meant anything in the game besides spamming GW's...
Not having these things doesn't mean the ship wasn't designed for exploration. Just not for the kind of exploration that would require those things. Why do you assume everything must have every piece of equipment possibly used for exploration to be an exploration ship? Not every ship needs to be designed to explore the exact same things, that's kind of redundant on if you plan on building smaller, more purpose built ships.
Not really. Starfleet designs ships to explore. These ships are also designed to fight because exploration is dangerous. Doesn't change that the ships are built to explore first, nor does it mean that they can't be used in wartime to fit more tactical roles or peace time in more policing roles since that would also be considered in their design. The fact that the exploration ships were becoming more heavily armed doesn't change the fact that they were still exploration ships. It just means that Starfleet has realised the galaxy is a more dangerous place than they thought previously.
Actual canon science ships tend to go in after the explorer ships have determined that 1) there's something interesting that requires further studying and 2) it's safe for a ship geared more towards study than combat to be there.
Nothing you've said so far has really shown that the Intrepid class was designed primarily for anything other than exploration. I doubt that anything you've found in the show will change that since being designed for exploration doesn't mean it wasn't also designed to fight. Also doesn't mean that in this game the Intrepid class can't be a science ship in this game since that really means nothing.
In the past two weeks there has been a post-pocalypse crying out for the Galaxy X to get a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
So now I'm reading this thread, asking for the Intrepid to get ...
a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
What build does everyone want to cram onto each ship that requires this BOFF? I'm confounded by how it seems a Lt. Commander Tactical is the salve that every ship in this game needs.
Which is the one with ... the Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
/sigh