Not having these things doesn't mean the ship wasn't designed for exploration. Just not for the kind of exploration that would require those things. Why do you assume everything must have every piece of equipment possibly used for exploration to be an exploration ship? Not every ship needs to be designed to explore the exact same things, that's kind of redundant on if you plan on building smaller, more purpose built ships.
Not really. Starfleet designs ships to explore. These ships are also designed to fight because exploration is dangerous. Doesn't change that the ships are built to explore first, nor does it mean that they can't be used in wartime to fit more tactical roles or peace time in more policing roles since that would also be considered in their design. The fact that the exploration ships were becoming more heavily armed doesn't change the fact that they were still exploration ships. It just means that Starfleet has realised the galaxy is a more dangerous place than they thought previously.
Actual canon science ships tend to go in after the explorer ships have determined that 1) there's something interesting that requires further studying and 2) it's safe for a ship geared more towards study than combat to be there.
Nothing you've said so far has really shown that the Intrepid class was designed primarily for anything other than exploration. I doubt that anything you've found in the show will change that since being designed for exploration doesn't mean it wasn't also designed to fight. Also doesn't mean that in this game the Intrepid class can't be a science ship in this game since that really means nothing.
lol. im about to give up cause some of you are wearing the rose colored sci ship glasses.. im giving definitive proof, spending more time than I need to researching this, posting it, and you are all holding on to a belief system, that even in canon, was explained to be changing..
whatevs..
as far as voyager not being equipped for everything, she wasn't relaly equipped for anything other than combat and medical service. according to the show.. it wasn't till later when they "refit" her to sevens liking, that they gained anything usefull for exploring.. case and point. voyager in the last few episodes I am rewatching for the twelth time, end up miscalculating, and endangering people, and other phenomena cause their sensors were not sophisticated enouph to figure out what they were actually dealing with. in most cases, it was their lack of knowledge due to not having the right recources that caused a lot of problems..
you know, just to make you happy, lets make every ship except for the defient on the fed side a science ship.. sounds like a hoot load of fun.. also, well lose to the klinks left and right.. and also, well call up cbs, and have them convert all the ships before first contact, and the dominion war back to the federations esploration roots, well replace torpedo pods on akiras with sensor pods, well remove half the weapons on half the ships to make room for better sensors.. and then well see how the above mentioned military struggles for the federation go.. hell, lets remove the quantum torpedoes from the sovereign, her other 2 of her 4 photon torpedo launchers, and cut the phaser banks down in half..
lets see how first contact goes with your re written history..
I have this feeling like some of the people in here are going on assumptions, have nto watched every episode of treck, or even half of them, and have no real clue as to what they are saying.. everytime I come out, and five you an approximation of a quote (giving you the j gyst of what was said) by a particular person (like Shelby, or sisko, or what not, it is ignored, and the pre wolf 359 notion of exploration at the cost of defense is slapped down.. weve heard it, and you are wrong.. please stop using innacurate theories to try and explain something that has been explained on screen a hundred times away.
it was said time and time again after wolf 359 that Starfleet was building ships based on combat readiness. even in message in a bottle, when the dr. talks to mark 2, and mark 2 tells him the Prometheus was built as a long range tactical interceptor or whatever he said, the dr. questions him about this, in the same way you do, when did Starfleet get in the business of warships basically. and the mark 2 says something along the lines of a lot has changed..
well that is what happened after wolf 359, a lot changed. ships were refitted for better offensive capabilities.. new weapons were devised. new layouts like ships without star drive sections to make lower budget defense oriented ships with massive torpedo bays and a good phaser arc were built. the sabre was created. the need to create faster, more menuverable ships was introduced..
**** again, im not trying to say that any Starfleet vessel is totally inept at exploration. where there is a will there is a way, and voyager certainly proved that. but when classifying the intrepid class in game, its a far cry to call a ship whose first thought on the drawing board, and by the looks of her crew compliment, and the lack of "any real" laboratories, or exploration oriented facilities, a science vessel.
the only reason cryptic called the intrepid a science vessel, is because it did explore a lot of the delta quadrant single handedly. but that doesn't make it a science ship.
it was a crew that decided instead of just flying the whole time at high warp to get home, they would make as good of use of what they had to explore as per the federation charter.
the fact of the matter is, in 5 episodes, voyager was not once even remotely refered to as an explorer or science vessel, and they hint, and even flat out say she is a combat vessel. janeway even comments to chakotay about their short comings in officers due to the ships purpose. (in respect to doing exploration and scientific discovery). and like I said, I know there is more instances of this, where 7 of 0 makes these comments, and paris, and janeway, and chakotay, and tuvok.. the thing the ship has the most of, is security officers..
I agree with the guy who poster earlier, saying the intrepid class was more than likely created to fill a patrol role. patrolling for pirate and other illegal activities. dealing with skirmishes, and putting a distinct tactical presence where needed. less you forget, the enterprise was put on "patrol" duty along the neutral zone. and I would venture a guess, that Starfleet was operating a whole fleet to just patrolling the boarders and keeping an eye out.. it is also said many times that a ship patrolling a certain system found something that needed investigation, and a better outfitted ship for the duty would go and do so. or the enterprise in tng found destroyed vessels that were on patrol, or out looking for vessels that were on patrol, but had gone missing..
the closest thing you see to a science officer actually offering up science advice, is janeway. and as a note, as I watched the first 5 episodes, I noticed some of the crew members colors changed. like seska, seamlessly they did it, making it look like they wanted to cut down on the amount of blue you saw on the show.. seska started in a blue uniform, but was then switched to mustard and labeled an engineer.
going through it, most of the blue they got they picked up from the maqui, or the equinox.. sure they had a few, but it was grossly out numbered to the other proffessions.
as far as voyager not being equipped for everything, she wasn't relaly equipped for anything other than combat and medical service.
The neuro gel packs were supposed to give it much faster processing speeds. For things like sensors. That goes beyond just combat and medical service. And were one of those snappy features that they plugged in the pilot as well as at least once in the first season as a gizmo that made Voyager "better" than previous shows' ships.
In the past two weeks there has been a post-pocalypse crying out for the Galaxy X to get a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
So now I'm reading this thread, asking for the Intrepid to get ...
a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
What build does everyone want to cram onto each ship that requires this BOFF? I'm confounded by how it seems a Lt. Commander Tactical is the salve that every ship in this game needs.
Which is the one with ... the Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
/sigh
The problem is IMO the extend of damage race the game has become.
There is actually really little use for anything but tacs left. This would have to change to make those requests... Well... They probably not go away entirely but to tune them down.
Also....to be honest... Why not changing the Bo seating rules in this game entirely?
Let every (or at least every 10 console/fleet ship) either have a lc and ensign universal ship or let them have that Dyson ship Bo switch mode thing. One of the two for every ship.
What harm can this do to the balance at this point?
And most shops we are talking of are multifunction vessels, so it makes sense.
lol. im about to give up cause some of you are wearing the rose colored sci ship glasses.. im giving definitive proof, spending more time than I need to researching this, posting it, and you are all holding on to a belief system, that even in canon, was explained to be changing..
whatevs..
as far as voyager not being equipped for everything, she wasn't relaly equipped for anything other than combat and medical service. according to the show.. it wasn't till later when they "refit" her to sevens liking, that they gained anything usefull for exploring.. case and point. voyager in the last few episodes I am rewatching for the twelth time, end up miscalculating, and endangering people, and other phenomena cause their sensors were not sophisticated enouph to figure out what they were actually dealing with. in most cases, it was their lack of knowledge due to not having the right recources that caused a lot of problems..
you know, just to make you happy, lets make every ship except for the defient on the fed side a science ship.. sounds like a hoot load of fun.. also, well lose to the klinks left and right.. and also, well call up cbs, and have them convert all the ships before first contact, and the dominion war back to the federations esploration roots, well replace torpedo pods on akiras with sensor pods, well remove half the weapons on half the ships to make room for better sensors.. and then well see how the above mentioned military struggles for the federation go.. hell, lets remove the quantum torpedoes from the sovereign, her other 2 of her 4 photon torpedo launchers, and cut the phaser banks down in half..
lets see how first contact goes with your re written history..
I have this feeling like some of the people in here are going on assumptions, have nto watched every episode of treck, or even half of them, and have no real clue as to what they are saying.. everytime I come out, and five you an approximation of a quote (giving you the j gyst of what was said) by a particular person (like Shelby, or sisko, or what not, it is ignored, and the pre wolf 359 notion of exploration at the cost of defense is slapped down.. weve heard it, and you are wrong.. please stop using innacurate theories to try and explain something that has been explained on screen a hundred times away.
it was said time and time again after wolf 359 that Starfleet was building ships based on combat readiness. even in message in a bottle, when the dr. talks to mark 2, and mark 2 tells him the Prometheus was built as a long range tactical interceptor or whatever he said, the dr. questions him about this, in the same way you do, when did Starfleet get in the business of warships basically. and the mark 2 says something along the lines of a lot has changed..
well that is what happened after wolf 359, a lot changed. ships were refitted for better offensive capabilities.. new weapons were devised. new layouts like ships without star drive sections to make lower budget defense oriented ships with massive torpedo bays and a good phaser arc were built. the sabre was created. the need to create faster, more menuverable ships was introduced..
**** again, im not trying to say that any Starfleet vessel is totally inept at exploration. where there is a will there is a way, and voyager certainly proved that. but when classifying the intrepid class in game, its a far cry to call a ship whose first thought on the drawing board, and by the looks of her crew compliment, and the lack of "any real" laboratories, or exploration oriented facilities, a science vessel.
the only reason cryptic called the intrepid a science vessel, is because it did explore a lot of the delta quadrant single handedly. but that doesn't make it a science ship.
it was a crew that decided instead of just flying the whole time at high warp to get home, they would make as good of use of what they had to explore as per the federation charter.
the fact of the matter is, in 5 episodes, voyager was not once even remotely refered to as an explorer or science vessel, and they hint, and even flat out say she is a combat vessel. janeway even comments to chakotay about their short comings in officers due to the ships purpose. (in respect to doing exploration and scientific discovery). and like I said, I know there is more instances of this, where 7 of 0 makes these comments, and paris, and janeway, and chakotay, and tuvok.. the thing the ship has the most of, is security officers..
I agree with the guy who poster earlier, saying the intrepid class was more than likely created to fill a patrol role. patrolling for pirate and other illegal activities. dealing with skirmishes, and putting a distinct tactical presence where needed. less you forget, the enterprise was put on "patrol" duty along the neutral zone. and I would venture a guess, that Starfleet was operating a whole fleet to just patrolling the boarders and keeping an eye out.. it is also said many times that a ship patrolling a certain system found something that needed investigation, and a better outfitted ship for the duty would go and do so. or the enterprise in tng found destroyed vessels that were on patrol, or out looking for vessels that were on patrol, but had gone missing..
the closest thing you see to a science officer actually offering up science advice, is janeway. and as a note, as I watched the first 5 episodes, I noticed some of the crew members colors changed. like seska, seamlessly they did it, making it look like they wanted to cut down on the amount of blue you saw on the show.. seska started in a blue uniform, but was then switched to mustard and labeled an engineer.
going through it, most of the blue they got they picked up from the maqui, or the equinox.. sure they had a few, but it was grossly out numbered to the other proffessions.
Again, you seem to think exploration means it must have everything a Galaxy class does. The Galazy class is a very general explorer. The Intrepid, being smaller, would make more sense to have more specialized exploration. They may not be sent to explore areas that are at least not mapped. Or areas that require a stellar cartography or biology lab. Doesn't mean they were not designed to explore, just means that they don't fit those kind of exploration. Also probably wouldn't be sent on mission that required being away from Federation Space for years but that doesn't mean that they won't explore far away places either. Get over the idea that the only way it could be designed as an explorer first would be if it was exactly like a miniature Galaxy class. Or that an exploration ship means its a science ship, because it doesn't mean that.
Also, being good tactically is kind of what Starfleet Exploration ships do. So no matter how much you toute the Intrepid classes tactical ability, that doesn't make it designed for that first. It just means it fits the profile for how Starfleet designs most of their ships,which even when designed for exploration first are matches for warships designed by other races. I agree that patrol ship is likely what it would be used for when not exploring. What I desiagree with is the statement that it was designed for this first when every indication is that it fits the standard profile for Starfleet.
The other mistake you seem to be msking is that exporation ships are only science ships. They are not. Again, what Cryptic made the ship is not important. Nor is it likely to change. Besides, as a tactical captain I had a lot of fun flying the Intrepid in this game for a bit. Sure its not going to win DPS records, but its still a lot of fun.
What you seem to be hung up on is the idea that a ship designed to explore can't also fight really well and fit in a tactical role when this has been the standard since Star Trek came out. Even more so in the TNG, DS9 and Voyager era of Starfleet. So really, yes, it is a good ship tactically. It was still designed for exploration first.
The problem is IMO the extend of damage race the game has become.
There is actually really little use for anything but tacs left. This would have to change to make those requests... Well... They probably not go away entirely but to tune them down.
Also....to be honest... Why not changing the Bo seating rules in this game entirely?
Let every (or at least every 10 console/fleet ship) either have a lc and ensign universal ship or let them have that Dyson ship Bo switch mode thing. One of the two for every ship.
What harm can this do to the balance at this point?
And most shops we are talking of are multifunction vessels, so it makes sense.
I'm curious to see what the changes to sensor analysis are going to be. See if that makes a difference at all.
Unless they've been outlined somewhere and I missed them.
Again, you seem to think exploration means it must have everything a Galaxy class does. The Galazy class is a very general explorer. The Intrepid, being smaller, would make more sense to have more specialized exploration. They may not be sent to explore areas that are at least not mapped. Or areas that require a stellar cartography or biology lab. Doesn't mean they were not designed to explore, just means that they don't fit those kind of exploration. Also probably wouldn't be sent on mission that required being away from Federation Space for years but that doesn't mean that they won't explore far away places either. Get over the idea that the only way it could be designed as an explorer first would be if it was exactly like a miniature Galaxy class. Or that an exploration ship means its a science ship, because it doesn't mean that.
Also, being good tactically is kind of what Starfleet Exploration ships do. So no matter how much you toute the Intrepid classes tactical ability, that doesn't make it designed for that first. It just means it fits the profile for how Starfleet designs most of their ships,which even when designed for exploration first are matches for warships designed by other races. I agree that patrol ship is likely what it would be used for when not exploring. What I desiagree with is the statement that it was designed for this first when every indication is that it fits the standard profile for Starfleet.
The other mistake you seem to be msking is that exporation ships are only science ships. They are not. Again, what Cryptic made the ship is not important. Nor is it likely to change. Besides, as a tactical captain I had a lot of fun flying the Intrepid in this game for a bit. Sure its not going to win DPS records, but its still a lot of fun.
What you seem to be hung up on is the idea that a ship designed to explore can't also fight really well and fit in a tactical role when this has been the standard since Star Trek came out. Even more so in the TNG, DS9 and Voyager era of Starfleet. So really, yes, it is a good ship tactically. It was still designed for exploration first.
True.
I personally think a lot of people (not necessarily in this thread, mind you) have some kind of ego problem with not playing or having a "battleship" of any kind at their command. Fact is, Starfleet has always incorporated military function, it's part of their being. But it's a different time, a different mindset and a different approach than what we are used to. Starfleet heaviest ships are dubbed "Explorers" and they fight their wars with those Explorers. Having modern weapon system on board IS part of the design philosophy due to the nature of exploring.
I think it's just a struggle about terminology for some people as it's cooler to have warships/battleships than "explorers", presumably because a lot of people still mistake exploration for unarmed love boat sightseeing.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
In the past two weeks there has been a post-pocalypse crying out for the Galaxy X to get a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
So now I'm reading this thread, asking for the Intrepid to get ...
a Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
What build does everyone want to cram onto each ship that requires this BOFF? I'm confounded by how it seems a Lt. Commander Tactical is the salve that every ship in this game needs.
Which is the one with ... the Lt. Commander Tactical BOFF.
/sigh
Because now every ship just has to be a damage spewing death machine.
The Intrepid is a Long Range EXPLORATION Vessel, which is NOT the same as a purely Science vessel.
Part of exploration is dealing with threats, handling diplomatic encounters, as well as Science of Astro-Phenomena, Biology, Chemistry, Etc.
The main design consideration when the Intrepid was being developed was Speed, Raw sustainable speed.
This is why it's size is small, but yet they crammed as much as they could on board, it's science equipment was most likely limited to critical and maybe a few secondary types of science equipment assuming it was small enough and not too power hungry, this is why pure science vessels are often slower and lightly armed, because a lot of their power is going to power and computer intensive scientific equipment that is exceedingly precise, and in the case of the Nebula, the sci equipment takes up alot of real estate in terms of hull space.
The Intrepid class was designed to get the Federation's boots on the ground in distant areas as quickly as possible, this is why the max velocity is also the max cruise speed. Which generally there is a max cruise speed and the unsustainable and often damaging max speed that's a bit faster.
But not the Intrepid, it's designed to throw the throttle to the wall and keep it there, to travel long distances.
Because it's better to have at least a decent scientific analysis of many distant places, then Full detailed analysis of a only a few places.
However due to the long range nature of it's missions, it's systems are clearly designed to be modular or redesigned, as proof by it's ever changing improvements that were given to the vessel that even the mighty Enterprise D would of had to return to space doc to install.
Generally, the Federation sends out explorers to give a basic to decent level of analysis, transmit that info back to StarFleet, who THEY decide whether to "follow up with a Full Science Vessel" to quote Picard.
It seems to me that Full blooded Sci vessels are in high demand but short supply, probably because they require a lot of resources to build and maintain, due to the extreme precision of their equipment, that must be maintained.
The Intrepid does not meet that criteria of a FULL blooded science vessel.
the Nova class for example would be more in line with a full blown sci vessel, designed for short term, to the point missions where they would probably spend months at a particular spot and then return home for resupply.
So In conclusion the Intrepid class is a Explorer, not a pure science vessel, but AS an Explorer that gives it a Science slant, It was not designed with battle or war in mind, it's not a cruiser, so this is why it's filed as a science ship.
Generally with the Scientific nature of StarFleet and the Federation, to be honest ALL starfleet vessels have some kind of Science package on board, even the Defiant which is clearly a Tactical vessel and an Escort no less, yet Dax did alot of science things on board all the time, so even it has a Science suite.
Anyhow, there's no more evidence that the Nebula class is a science vessel, than that the Intrepid class is one. In fact, Nebulas were originally conceived as a stardrive recovery system for orphaned Galaxy saucers.
That seems kind of odd considering that the nebula in as far as I know older then the galaxy.
Also why a saucer recovery that is in mass as bis as the original ship?
That seems kind of odd considering that the nebula in as far as I know older then the galaxy.
Also why a saucer recovery that is in mass as bis as the original ship?
The nebula canonically is supposed to be a multi role ship, memory alpha (Which is the canonical source) lists its roles as " scientific and exploratory roles to conducting patrol and transport duties."
It is also assumed though never stated that the Nebula and the Galaxy were developed at the same time or close to it as both classes launched around the same time and share many common elements.
There is nothing listed about it recovering saucer sections of Galaxies anywhere. The only time one is ever shown near a Galaxy saucer is in Generations where there is a ship rescuing the Ent D crew .
It makes you wonder where people get this bogus info from.
Any Star Trek fan worth a damn is fully aware of the Nebula-class canon:
If a Galaxy-class is scared at an early stage in it's life it will instinctively retract it's neck and pylons, much in the same way that a tortoise will withdraw into it's shell. Some are so afraid of whatever has caused them to take this defensive stance that they never fully expand again, and that is where Nebula-class ships come from.
The nebula canonically is supposed to be a multi role ship, memory alpha (Which is the canonical source) lists its roles as " scientific and exploratory roles to conducting patrol and transport duties."
It is also assumed though never stated that the Nebula and the Galaxy were developed at the same time or close to it as both classes launched around the same time and share many common elements.
There is nothing listed about it recovering saucer sections of Galaxies anywhere. The only time one is ever shown near a Galaxy saucer is in Generations where there is a ship rescuing the Ent D crew .
It makes you wonder where people get this bogus info from.
Memory Alphas infos are only canon as long as there is a source to the information. Stuff doesn't become canon because someone posts it there. And recently the quality there decreases rapidly.
Also "scientific and exploratory roles to conducting patrol and transport duties" is probably the moist generic description ever. It fits for the Galaxy, Sovereign, Intrepid, Miranda, Constitution, Nx-Class.... hell every single Starfleet vessel outside the "warships" like Defiant and Prometheus classes...
Memory Alphas infos are only canon as long as there is a source to the information. Stuff doesn't become canon because someone posts it there. And recently the quality there decreases rapidly.
Also "scientific and exploratory roles to conducting patrol and transport duties" is probably the moist generic description ever. It fits for the Galaxy, Sovereign, Intrepid, Miranda, Constitution, Nx-Class.... hell every single Starfleet vessel outside the "warships" like Defiant and Prometheus classes...
In this case its canon as Mem alpha cites which episodes the info is pulled from so I don't see a problem there.
And yes most Starfleet ships outside of the Defiant and Prometheus class are multi roll because that is how they design ships unlike say the KDF who focus on tactical first.
Once again I'll say ... What I'd like to see happen an LRSV Bundle in the C-Strore ...
Realistically (probably get flamed for this but) the Retrofit and even Fleet versions are ... pointless ... Unless you are Totally committed to only ever flying Voyager.
For Science Captains the Vesta is a better buy or even the RSV ...
A Bundle could solve this easily by giving the Intrepid and her variants, the usual 3 pack options of Eng heavy, Tac heavy and Sci heavy.
That is all fan speculation. Right now, the only times we have ever seen a Nebula in the role of an explorer or science vessel was when Sisko thought he was going nuts because a scientist's wife and if you can read the info graphic, one was assigned to the Vulcan Science Academy.
However we see the Nebula in more purely tactical situations than anything else, fighting at Wolf 359, destroying Cardassian ships, blockading Romulans, fighting the Borg at Earth (twice), fighting the Dominion, chasing down a hijacked ship (twice),Neutral zone patrols and fighting the Klingons.
Non-tactical roles were ferrying Sarek, stopping over at DS9, and picking up Picard.
The Nebula is in a far misunderstood role than any starship in STO.
Well, not read all 11 pages, so sorry if this was brought up.
But how was Voyager designed for tactical use?
Just going by watching the show, you see it lacks lots of things like heavy weapons, a ton of launchers and so on.
If you watch this video you can even see, that apart from 1 time, a "Full Spread" of torpedoes is only 3 torps (TS1 anyone?) plus the odd BFAW is shown.
So, going by what you see on screen, you can already repeat it in game.
That is all fan speculation. Right now, the only times we have ever seen a Nebula in the role of an explorer or science vessel was when Sisko thought he was going nuts because a scientist's wife and if you can read the info graphic, one was assigned to the Vulcan Science Academy.
However we see the Nebula in more purely tactical situations than anything else, fighting at Wolf 359, destroying Cardassian ships, blockading Romulans, fighting the Borg at Earth (twice), fighting the Dominion, chasing down a hijacked ship (twice),Neutral zone patrols and fighting the Klingons.
Non-tactical roles were ferrying Sarek, stopping over at DS9, and picking up Picard.
The Nebula is in a far misunderstood role than any starship in STO.
Comparing STO ship roles to canon ship roles has always been odd.
No ship is represented accurately.
The Galaxy was heavily armed onscreen too. Plus it had pretty much every possible science installation. Plus it was a big cruiser that could take a punch.
The Defiant was an overhyped shuttle essentially, being extremely strong FOR ITS SIZE, but being pretty small (those are not even 3 real decks compared to the 26+ of the Galaxy) having still less weapons and tactical capacities or firepower then any Galaxy or sovereign, Intrepid or Nebula.
And the scimitar? That monstrosity shredded the Ent E plus two warbirds and didn't even sweat. I don't question it being insanely overpowered already ingame, but on screen it was even more OP.
Then we have all those "dated" ships that do really work in the same tiers as the others. Excelsior, D'Kyr, Kumari.... even the Ambassador.
And since all canon ships are essentially dated they couldn't compete to Cryptics ugly self creations at all.
But it would make a pretty poor game to implement that accurately, wed be stuck with cryptic created ugly cruisers only. Its a game after all. And its fun to play the ships we like; and they have to be balanced somehow. So directing them to one role or another seems pretty ok to me.
That is all fan speculation. Right now, the only times we have ever seen a Nebula in the role of an explorer or science vessel was when Sisko thought he was going nuts because a scientist's wife and if you can read the info graphic, one was assigned to the Vulcan Science Academy.
However we see the Nebula in more purely tactical situations than anything else, fighting at Wolf 359, destroying Cardassian ships, blockading Romulans, fighting the Borg at Earth (twice), fighting the Dominion, chasing down a hijacked ship (twice),Neutral zone patrols and fighting the Klingons.
Non-tactical roles were ferrying Sarek, stopping over at DS9, and picking up Picard.
The Nebula is in a far misunderstood role than any starship in STO.
The Nebula is a more economic variant of the Galaxy, as such she pretty much does the same as her big sister. That means that a Galaxy Class Explorer is heavily armed and tactically capable as well. But both ships are Explorers and multi mission ships, the Nebula is not a "tactical" ship at all. It's highly flexible due to the mission pod which could provide additional facilities when needed (I guess it's still cheaper than building another Galaxy) which is represented by the universal Lt BOFF slot in STO.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
How is it non-canon, and inaccurate? No explanation was ever given on screen about the design theory, of the Nebula class. From a practical standpoint, this reason makes a way better case for the Nebula's inception, then the "Starfleet just decided to make a ship out of Galaxy parts, but arrange them differently, so it looks different" argument.
And everything that has not been on screen is not canon. Doen't mean its wrong, it means its open for interpretation.
That makes any source that doesn't give a reference for the stated facts an illegitimate source.
The only reason why memory alpha is hold in high regards is because they keep their wiki clean and as free as possible from made up stuff..
So.... if I now state "the Nebula class was a party boat and the thing on the top was only a party deck, it was only lent for other missions now and then as an exception" this statement is a legitimate and as canon as this source.
How is it non-canon, and inaccurate? No explanation was ever given on screen about the design theory, of the Nebula class. From a practical standpoint, this reason makes a way better case for the Nebula's inception, then the "Starfleet just decided to make a ship out of Galaxy parts, but arrange them differently, so it looks different" argument.
Because none of that information was stated in any form of canon, not on screen which is hard canon nor in the books and ect which is soft canon.
Also it makes no sense. Starfleet wouldn't need a warp drive for gal saucers , they already have one - the star drive section . They could tow a saucer back to a Starbase (and yes Gal saucers can survive warp speeds as the Ent D separated at warp in the very first TNG episode) and give it a new Stardrive.
As for that source of yours its also inaccurate as hell, it can't even get something easy like the weapons of the Defiant class right. (two torpedo launchers, what?)
Same for the Sovereign class its completely off base.
Is it created, produced, maintained by any of the licensed or copyright holders for "Star Trek"?
No?
Then there is your answer, it is an unofficial website, not created by or governed by anyone who holds the IP rights or licenses for said rights.
Hence, not "Canon"
Hence, "illegitimate source"
Hence.... I ran out of hence, meh, point made I hope. :P
Seems jockey beat me to it.
If it isn't stated/shown in media created or supported by the owners of the IP it isn't much more than fanfic, regardless of how good a backstory you think it is.
Exactly. And there was NEVER anything, or anybody portrayed on screen saying the Nebula wasn't originally conceived as a Galaxy saucer recovery platform. So, it's open to interpretation.
Ok, this is scraping the very bottom of the barrel. Nothing outright said Worf didn't eat children. Neelix never stated that he hasn't tried on one of Seven of Nine's catsuits.
Exactly. And there was NEVER anything, or anybody portrayed on screen saying the Nebula wasn't originally conceived as a Galaxy saucer recovery platform. So, it's open to interpretation.
No it's created, produced, and maintained, by fans like you and myself, who get our information from the copyrighted material. I'm just not sure what objection you have, and how it pertains to my statement.
Didn't say I agreed with the points made, just explaining why so many here will shoot down that information as "non-canon" and dismiss it.
Alas, on that you are fighting a lost cause. Like it all you want, but as Cryptic is under license from CBS - canon becomes a very sensitive topic here.
Yeah, your frantically, grabbing for driftwood, now. I would think cannibalism, would render one unfit for Starfleet duty. Although I'm sure true Klingons might encourage this rumor in order to spread fear among their enemies. As for Neelix, I don't consider anything in Voyager as being canon. Terrible, travesty, of the license, but not canon.
You can class Voyager as whatever you want, but it is "hard canon" - like it or not, it was shown on TV, as "Star Trek". Protest all you like, ST:V and all related information from it, is "hard canon" and will be used in this licensed product - plus defended by the fans of it.
I'll tell you what's wrong with that statement, from a theory, and design standpoint. When you say "more economic" you must mean in time to construct, as money is not an issue. The Nebula uses the same saucer, nacelles, hull, pylons, and neck as the Galaxy, just configured differently. However the Nebula also has the "mission pod" which the Galaxy lacks. Ergo, if all design parameters are the same, it's gonna take you longer to construct that extra module, so the Nebula will take longer to construct, overall.
Both Galaxy, and Nebula were contemporaries of each other. The Nebula is 4-5 years older, I believe. So if the Nebula is both older, and more "economical" to construct, yet perform the same role of the Galaxy class, why build Galaxies at all?
The Nebula's origin as an orphan Galaxy saucer recovery platform makes a better argument for it's creation. In the shows, saucer separation was portrayed more as a "giant lifeboat" theory, than the multiple attack vectors premise that is shown in STO. General quarters for all non essential personell would be in the saucer section, during combat. In the event of a warp core breach, (which probably occurred on a few Galaxies) Starfleet required a more reliable means of getting these people home than tractor beaming them through warp space. It has to be easier maintaining a warp bubble around one object, as opposed to two. It's not outlandish to think Starfleet just said hey, instead of building a new Galaxy hull to match the orphan saucer, we could just modify the recovery hull we already have, especially during the onset of the Borg incursion, and the Dominion War.
I don't find that saucer recovery theory very convincing.
As far as I know the Nebula is older (although not much I admit, and given that it probably takes decades from designing a ship of that size to regulary building it 4 years do not have such an impact.... Also I believe the nebula being older is a theory as well...)... but still.
If the Nebula is older then the Galaxy why would it even be a saucer recovery, since saucer separation came up with the Galaxy first.
Thats like inventing the towing vehicle before inventing the car...
I thing it was a specialized version the Galaxy essentially, meaning LESS economic.
The sensor pod was probably useful on occasion but expensive and not THAT regulary in use. So they did build that design as Galaxy classes regularly and the the rearranged Pod caring Nebula (identical in every other aspect) in fewer numbers for missions that involve that pod.
That would also explain why we saw much more Galaxys as we saw Nebulas
Similar concept (IMO) applies for the Excelsior refit compared to the original Excelsior.
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lol. im about to give up cause some of you are wearing the rose colored sci ship glasses.. im giving definitive proof, spending more time than I need to researching this, posting it, and you are all holding on to a belief system, that even in canon, was explained to be changing..
whatevs..
as far as voyager not being equipped for everything, she wasn't relaly equipped for anything other than combat and medical service. according to the show.. it wasn't till later when they "refit" her to sevens liking, that they gained anything usefull for exploring.. case and point. voyager in the last few episodes I am rewatching for the twelth time, end up miscalculating, and endangering people, and other phenomena cause their sensors were not sophisticated enouph to figure out what they were actually dealing with. in most cases, it was their lack of knowledge due to not having the right recources that caused a lot of problems..
you know, just to make you happy, lets make every ship except for the defient on the fed side a science ship.. sounds like a hoot load of fun.. also, well lose to the klinks left and right.. and also, well call up cbs, and have them convert all the ships before first contact, and the dominion war back to the federations esploration roots, well replace torpedo pods on akiras with sensor pods, well remove half the weapons on half the ships to make room for better sensors.. and then well see how the above mentioned military struggles for the federation go.. hell, lets remove the quantum torpedoes from the sovereign, her other 2 of her 4 photon torpedo launchers, and cut the phaser banks down in half..
lets see how first contact goes with your re written history..
I have this feeling like some of the people in here are going on assumptions, have nto watched every episode of treck, or even half of them, and have no real clue as to what they are saying.. everytime I come out, and five you an approximation of a quote (giving you the j gyst of what was said) by a particular person (like Shelby, or sisko, or what not, it is ignored, and the pre wolf 359 notion of exploration at the cost of defense is slapped down.. weve heard it, and you are wrong.. please stop using innacurate theories to try and explain something that has been explained on screen a hundred times away.
it was said time and time again after wolf 359 that Starfleet was building ships based on combat readiness. even in message in a bottle, when the dr. talks to mark 2, and mark 2 tells him the Prometheus was built as a long range tactical interceptor or whatever he said, the dr. questions him about this, in the same way you do, when did Starfleet get in the business of warships basically. and the mark 2 says something along the lines of a lot has changed..
well that is what happened after wolf 359, a lot changed. ships were refitted for better offensive capabilities.. new weapons were devised. new layouts like ships without star drive sections to make lower budget defense oriented ships with massive torpedo bays and a good phaser arc were built. the sabre was created. the need to create faster, more menuverable ships was introduced..
**** again, im not trying to say that any Starfleet vessel is totally inept at exploration. where there is a will there is a way, and voyager certainly proved that. but when classifying the intrepid class in game, its a far cry to call a ship whose first thought on the drawing board, and by the looks of her crew compliment, and the lack of "any real" laboratories, or exploration oriented facilities, a science vessel.
the only reason cryptic called the intrepid a science vessel, is because it did explore a lot of the delta quadrant single handedly. but that doesn't make it a science ship.
it was a crew that decided instead of just flying the whole time at high warp to get home, they would make as good of use of what they had to explore as per the federation charter.
the fact of the matter is, in 5 episodes, voyager was not once even remotely refered to as an explorer or science vessel, and they hint, and even flat out say she is a combat vessel. janeway even comments to chakotay about their short comings in officers due to the ships purpose. (in respect to doing exploration and scientific discovery). and like I said, I know there is more instances of this, where 7 of 0 makes these comments, and paris, and janeway, and chakotay, and tuvok.. the thing the ship has the most of, is security officers..
I agree with the guy who poster earlier, saying the intrepid class was more than likely created to fill a patrol role. patrolling for pirate and other illegal activities. dealing with skirmishes, and putting a distinct tactical presence where needed. less you forget, the enterprise was put on "patrol" duty along the neutral zone. and I would venture a guess, that Starfleet was operating a whole fleet to just patrolling the boarders and keeping an eye out.. it is also said many times that a ship patrolling a certain system found something that needed investigation, and a better outfitted ship for the duty would go and do so. or the enterprise in tng found destroyed vessels that were on patrol, or out looking for vessels that were on patrol, but had gone missing..
the closest thing you see to a science officer actually offering up science advice, is janeway. and as a note, as I watched the first 5 episodes, I noticed some of the crew members colors changed. like seska, seamlessly they did it, making it look like they wanted to cut down on the amount of blue you saw on the show.. seska started in a blue uniform, but was then switched to mustard and labeled an engineer.
going through it, most of the blue they got they picked up from the maqui, or the equinox.. sure they had a few, but it was grossly out numbered to the other proffessions.
The neuro gel packs were supposed to give it much faster processing speeds. For things like sensors. That goes beyond just combat and medical service. And were one of those snappy features that they plugged in the pilot as well as at least once in the first season as a gizmo that made Voyager "better" than previous shows' ships.
Or something.
And now I'm sucked into the rabbit hole.
The problem is IMO the extend of damage race the game has become.
There is actually really little use for anything but tacs left. This would have to change to make those requests... Well... They probably not go away entirely but to tune them down.
Also....to be honest... Why not changing the Bo seating rules in this game entirely?
Let every (or at least every 10 console/fleet ship) either have a lc and ensign universal ship or let them have that Dyson ship Bo switch mode thing. One of the two for every ship.
What harm can this do to the balance at this point?
And most shops we are talking of are multifunction vessels, so it makes sense.
Also, being good tactically is kind of what Starfleet Exploration ships do. So no matter how much you toute the Intrepid classes tactical ability, that doesn't make it designed for that first. It just means it fits the profile for how Starfleet designs most of their ships,which even when designed for exploration first are matches for warships designed by other races. I agree that patrol ship is likely what it would be used for when not exploring. What I desiagree with is the statement that it was designed for this first when every indication is that it fits the standard profile for Starfleet.
The other mistake you seem to be msking is that exporation ships are only science ships. They are not. Again, what Cryptic made the ship is not important. Nor is it likely to change. Besides, as a tactical captain I had a lot of fun flying the Intrepid in this game for a bit. Sure its not going to win DPS records, but its still a lot of fun.
What you seem to be hung up on is the idea that a ship designed to explore can't also fight really well and fit in a tactical role when this has been the standard since Star Trek came out. Even more so in the TNG, DS9 and Voyager era of Starfleet. So really, yes, it is a good ship tactically. It was still designed for exploration first.
Unless they've been outlined somewhere and I missed them.
True.
I personally think a lot of people (not necessarily in this thread, mind you) have some kind of ego problem with not playing or having a "battleship" of any kind at their command. Fact is, Starfleet has always incorporated military function, it's part of their being. But it's a different time, a different mindset and a different approach than what we are used to. Starfleet heaviest ships are dubbed "Explorers" and they fight their wars with those Explorers. Having modern weapon system on board IS part of the design philosophy due to the nature of exploring.
I think it's just a struggle about terminology for some people as it's cooler to have warships/battleships than "explorers", presumably because a lot of people still mistake exploration for unarmed love boat sightseeing.
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Because now every ship just has to be a damage spewing death machine.
Part of exploration is dealing with threats, handling diplomatic encounters, as well as Science of Astro-Phenomena, Biology, Chemistry, Etc.
The main design consideration when the Intrepid was being developed was Speed, Raw sustainable speed.
This is why it's size is small, but yet they crammed as much as they could on board, it's science equipment was most likely limited to critical and maybe a few secondary types of science equipment assuming it was small enough and not too power hungry, this is why pure science vessels are often slower and lightly armed, because a lot of their power is going to power and computer intensive scientific equipment that is exceedingly precise, and in the case of the Nebula, the sci equipment takes up alot of real estate in terms of hull space.
The Intrepid class was designed to get the Federation's boots on the ground in distant areas as quickly as possible, this is why the max velocity is also the max cruise speed. Which generally there is a max cruise speed and the unsustainable and often damaging max speed that's a bit faster.
But not the Intrepid, it's designed to throw the throttle to the wall and keep it there, to travel long distances.
Because it's better to have at least a decent scientific analysis of many distant places, then Full detailed analysis of a only a few places.
However due to the long range nature of it's missions, it's systems are clearly designed to be modular or redesigned, as proof by it's ever changing improvements that were given to the vessel that even the mighty Enterprise D would of had to return to space doc to install.
Generally, the Federation sends out explorers to give a basic to decent level of analysis, transmit that info back to StarFleet, who THEY decide whether to "follow up with a Full Science Vessel" to quote Picard.
It seems to me that Full blooded Sci vessels are in high demand but short supply, probably because they require a lot of resources to build and maintain, due to the extreme precision of their equipment, that must be maintained.
The Intrepid does not meet that criteria of a FULL blooded science vessel.
the Nova class for example would be more in line with a full blown sci vessel, designed for short term, to the point missions where they would probably spend months at a particular spot and then return home for resupply.
So In conclusion the Intrepid class is a Explorer, not a pure science vessel, but AS an Explorer that gives it a Science slant, It was not designed with battle or war in mind, it's not a cruiser, so this is why it's filed as a science ship.
Generally with the Scientific nature of StarFleet and the Federation, to be honest ALL starfleet vessels have some kind of Science package on board, even the Defiant which is clearly a Tactical vessel and an Escort no less, yet Dax did alot of science things on board all the time, so even it has a Science suite.
-AE
That seems kind of odd considering that the nebula in as far as I know older then the galaxy.
Also why a saucer recovery that is in mass as bis as the original ship?
The nebula canonically is supposed to be a multi role ship, memory alpha (Which is the canonical source) lists its roles as " scientific and exploratory roles to conducting patrol and transport duties."
It is also assumed though never stated that the Nebula and the Galaxy were developed at the same time or close to it as both classes launched around the same time and share many common elements.
There is nothing listed about it recovering saucer sections of Galaxies anywhere. The only time one is ever shown near a Galaxy saucer is in Generations where there is a ship rescuing the Ent D crew .
It makes you wonder where people get this bogus info from.
If a Galaxy-class is scared at an early stage in it's life it will instinctively retract it's neck and pylons, much in the same way that a tortoise will withdraw into it's shell. Some are so afraid of whatever has caused them to take this defensive stance that they never fully expand again, and that is where Nebula-class ships come from.
See? I can make things up too.
Memory Alphas infos are only canon as long as there is a source to the information. Stuff doesn't become canon because someone posts it there. And recently the quality there decreases rapidly.
Also "scientific and exploratory roles to conducting patrol and transport duties" is probably the moist generic description ever. It fits for the Galaxy, Sovereign, Intrepid, Miranda, Constitution, Nx-Class.... hell every single Starfleet vessel outside the "warships" like Defiant and Prometheus classes...
In this case its canon as Mem alpha cites which episodes the info is pulled from so I don't see a problem there.
And yes most Starfleet ships outside of the Defiant and Prometheus class are multi roll because that is how they design ships unlike say the KDF who focus on tactical first.
Realistically (probably get flamed for this but) the Retrofit and even Fleet versions are ... pointless ... Unless you are Totally committed to only ever flying Voyager.
For Science Captains the Vesta is a better buy or even the RSV ...
A Bundle could solve this easily by giving the Intrepid and her variants, the usual 3 pack options of Eng heavy, Tac heavy and Sci heavy.
That is all fan speculation. Right now, the only times we have ever seen a Nebula in the role of an explorer or science vessel was when Sisko thought he was going nuts because a scientist's wife and if you can read the info graphic, one was assigned to the Vulcan Science Academy.
However we see the Nebula in more purely tactical situations than anything else, fighting at Wolf 359, destroying Cardassian ships, blockading Romulans, fighting the Borg at Earth (twice), fighting the Dominion, chasing down a hijacked ship (twice),Neutral zone patrols and fighting the Klingons.
Non-tactical roles were ferrying Sarek, stopping over at DS9, and picking up Picard.
The Nebula is in a far misunderstood role than any starship in STO.
That is a fan site and thus non canon and its inaccurate.
How is that a legit source?
Interestingly though, it says this about the Intrepid-class:
"The Intrepid class was designed to fulfill the roles of an exploration and science vessel along with a light combat capability"
But how was Voyager designed for tactical use?
Just going by watching the show, you see it lacks lots of things like heavy weapons, a ton of launchers and so on.
If you watch this video you can even see, that apart from 1 time, a "Full Spread" of torpedoes is only 3 torps (TS1 anyone?) plus the odd BFAW is shown.
So, going by what you see on screen, you can already repeat it in game.
Comparing STO ship roles to canon ship roles has always been odd.
No ship is represented accurately.
The Galaxy was heavily armed onscreen too. Plus it had pretty much every possible science installation. Plus it was a big cruiser that could take a punch.
The Defiant was an overhyped shuttle essentially, being extremely strong FOR ITS SIZE, but being pretty small (those are not even 3 real decks compared to the 26+ of the Galaxy) having still less weapons and tactical capacities or firepower then any Galaxy or sovereign, Intrepid or Nebula.
And the scimitar? That monstrosity shredded the Ent E plus two warbirds and didn't even sweat. I don't question it being insanely overpowered already ingame, but on screen it was even more OP.
Then we have all those "dated" ships that do really work in the same tiers as the others. Excelsior, D'Kyr, Kumari.... even the Ambassador.
And since all canon ships are essentially dated they couldn't compete to Cryptics ugly self creations at all.
But it would make a pretty poor game to implement that accurately, wed be stuck with cryptic created ugly cruisers only. Its a game after all. And its fun to play the ships we like; and they have to be balanced somehow. So directing them to one role or another seems pretty ok to me.
The Nebula is a more economic variant of the Galaxy, as such she pretty much does the same as her big sister. That means that a Galaxy Class Explorer is heavily armed and tactically capable as well. But both ships are Explorers and multi mission ships, the Nebula is not a "tactical" ship at all. It's highly flexible due to the mission pod which could provide additional facilities when needed (I guess it's still cheaper than building another Galaxy) which is represented by the universal Lt BOFF slot in STO.
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Because canon is only what is onscreen.
And everything that has not been on screen is not canon. Doen't mean its wrong, it means its open for interpretation.
That makes any source that doesn't give a reference for the stated facts an illegitimate source.
The only reason why memory alpha is hold in high regards is because they keep their wiki clean and as free as possible from made up stuff..
So.... if I now state "the Nebula class was a party boat and the thing on the top was only a party deck, it was only lent for other missions now and then as an exception" this statement is a legitimate and as canon as this source.
Because none of that information was stated in any form of canon, not on screen which is hard canon nor in the books and ect which is soft canon.
Also it makes no sense. Starfleet wouldn't need a warp drive for gal saucers , they already have one - the star drive section . They could tow a saucer back to a Starbase (and yes Gal saucers can survive warp speeds as the Ent D separated at warp in the very first TNG episode) and give it a new Stardrive.
As for that source of yours its also inaccurate as hell, it can't even get something easy like the weapons of the Defiant class right. (two torpedo launchers, what?)
Same for the Sovereign class its completely off base.
Is it created, produced, maintained by any of the licensed or copyright holders for "Star Trek"?
No?
Then there is your answer, it is an unofficial website, not created by or governed by anyone who holds the IP rights or licenses for said rights.
Hence, not "Canon"
Hence, "illegitimate source"
Hence.... I ran out of hence, meh, point made I hope. :P
Seems jockey beat me to it.
If it isn't stated/shown in media created or supported by the owners of the IP it isn't much more than fanfic, regardless of how good a backstory you think it is.
Ok, this is scraping the very bottom of the barrel. Nothing outright said Worf didn't eat children. Neelix never stated that he hasn't tried on one of Seven of Nine's catsuits.
Is it a fact, or something interpreted?
Fan site = factual
Actual Trek series = non-canon
That thinking explains a fair bit.
Didn't say I agreed with the points made, just explaining why so many here will shoot down that information as "non-canon" and dismiss it.
Alas, on that you are fighting a lost cause. Like it all you want, but as Cryptic is under license from CBS - canon becomes a very sensitive topic here.
You can class Voyager as whatever you want, but it is "hard canon" - like it or not, it was shown on TV, as "Star Trek". Protest all you like, ST:V and all related information from it, is "hard canon" and will be used in this licensed product - plus defended by the fans of it.
I don't find that saucer recovery theory very convincing.
As far as I know the Nebula is older (although not much I admit, and given that it probably takes decades from designing a ship of that size to regulary building it 4 years do not have such an impact.... Also I believe the nebula being older is a theory as well...)... but still.
If the Nebula is older then the Galaxy why would it even be a saucer recovery, since saucer separation came up with the Galaxy first.
Thats like inventing the towing vehicle before inventing the car...
I thing it was a specialized version the Galaxy essentially, meaning LESS economic.
The sensor pod was probably useful on occasion but expensive and not THAT regulary in use. So they did build that design as Galaxy classes regularly and the the rearranged Pod caring Nebula (identical in every other aspect) in fewer numbers for missions that involve that pod.
That would also explain why we saw much more Galaxys as we saw Nebulas
Similar concept (IMO) applies for the Excelsior refit compared to the original Excelsior.