It's a Starfleet explorer. What this means is that it's a ship that designed to explore the unknown, which also means it needs to defend itself. This does mean that it is pretty well armed and it can fight, but it's not it's main purpose. The Galaxy class is an explorer, and it's one of the most heavily armed ships in Starfleet. Being an explorer does not mean being lightly armed, it's just the term Starfleet uses for their ships.
The only ships we know of from actual canon that were built specifically for fighting were the Defiant class and the Prometheus class. Everything else is speculation. Hell, the Prometheus likely had a pretty good chance at doing exploration as well (more than the Defiant anyway).
What the ship designation is in Star Trek Online is moot to what the ship was in canon. In canon, the Akira class is a cruiser. Yet in game the Akira is an escort.
yes, janeway had a lot on her resume with science and what not. but maybe she wanted a change.. maybe it was the only command position they offered her. maybe she proved that her ability to command a combat vessel was stronger than her science background.. or maybe she just wanted a change of pace, well never know..
and as far as all of your blue shirts.. 4 of them on that site were medical personel killed in the first episode.. there is nine in total. and there is a distinct lack of blue shirts, compared to all the gold and red.. watch an episode someday, half the time, there isn't even a blue shirt on the bridge.. also, blue shirts can be apart of ops, as we saw in a few episodes.. blue doesn't just mean science.
I served on a guided misile cruiser in the U.S. Navy. even though our ship was meant for one purpose only, we still had a full array of personel, ranging in al fields of expertise. sure, we might have had less of one type of personel than say a ship better suited for a particular task, but we still carried them cause you never know..
time and time again, it is shown that Starfleet gets the tactical edge due to using science, or their better understanding of something.. this would be the reason a "few" science personel are put on board..
like I said. voyager didn't even have the standard science labs on board.. the red and gold shirts vastly outnumbered the blue shirts..
and yes, the defient only explored 3 times to our knowledge, but it just proves that voyager could have been a combat vessel doing the same thing the defient was..
As we saw with people like the Cosmologist not even those have to be wearing a blue shirt...
Also, Voyager had:
an astrometric lab
and these:
are you telling me these did not exist on the show?
What about the holodecks that could easily hold a quarter of the crew at the time?
Those would be there on top of the holographic research lab.
Does that sound like combat ship to you?
What about all those big sensor arrays on the outside of the hull?
same as those you see on the Intrepid class and that are absent from combat ships like the Defiant. [On the Galaxy class the sensor surfaces are barely visible due to the ship's massive size.] On the Intrepid class they take up as much sirface as the phaser strips.
You don't include those big sensors into the physical makeup of such a small ship unless you want to actually use them for science. For combat they'd be redundant.
That's why what appears to be the sensors on the Defiant (those things at the top) are so small surfaces: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080717170412/memoryalpha/en/images/e/e3/USS_Defiant_firing_phaser_cannons.jpg
Also we've seen in episodes where the Defiant was used for science the scientists actually neede to bring their own science equipment because...well the ship was totally unsuited for that purpose.;)
B.t.w. Isokinetic Cannon F.T.W. Would not mind that addition at all.
Not really. The only real fruits in preparation for further Borg encounters were first the Sovereign & Defiant classes, at least in movie & TV show timeframes. The Sovereign was the first to field Starfleet's best, latest technology. But the Borg threat was lessened, so these platforms and their priority was on the backburner. Sovereign class technology was so new and cutting edge that you really don't hear much of its subsystems making its way into new vessel designs and existing ship refits, not even by Dominion War timeframe.
*IF* Starfleet was actually preparing for the Borg, they did a horrible job of it, i.e. "First Contact." 1 Borg Cube cutting through a fleet of Starfleet vessels like it was a kid carefully, methodically, swinging at pinatas without a blindfold. Hell, one of the ships purpose built to fight the Borg, the Defiant, was b**chslapped around and would have been destroyed were it not for the Enterprise-E's arrival.
Not really. The only real fruits in preparation for further Borg encounters were first the Sovereign & Defiant classes, at least in movie & TV show timeframes. The Sovereign was the first to field Starfleet's best, latest technology. But the Borg threat was lessened, so these platforms and their priority was on the backburner. Sovereign class technology was so new and cutting edge that you really don't hear much of its subsystems making its way into new vessel designs and existing ship refits, not even by Dominion War timeframe.
*IF* Starfleet was actually preparing for the Borg, they did a horrible job of it, i.e. "First Contact." 1 Borg Cube cutting through a fleet of Starfleet vessels like it was a kid carefully, methodically, swinging at pinatas without a blindfold. Hell, one of the ships purpose built to fight the Borg, the Defiant, was b**chslapped around and would have been destroyed were it not for the Enterprise-E's arrival.
The Sovereign being designed to fight the Borg isn't officially canon. The only canon change to Starfleet from the start of TNG to the end of TNG movies was Starfleet becoming more militarized.
What this likely means is that there were more combat dedicated starships, like the Defiant and Prometheus, while the rest of Starfleet's ships likely were getting more powerful, advanced weapondry. This doesn't change, in my opinion, their primary role as explorers, just that the ships were were heavily armed than they would have been without the Borg threat.
are you telling me these did not exist on the show?
What about the holodecks that could easily hold a quarter of the crew at the time?
Those would be there on top of the holographic research lab.
Does that sound like combat ship to you?
What about all those big sensor arrays on the outside of the hull?
same as those you see on the Intrepid class and that are absent from combat ships like the Defiant. [On the Galaxy class the sensor surfaces are barely visible due to the ship's massive size.] On the Intrepid class they take up as much sirface as the phaser strips.
You don't include those big sensors into the physical makeup of such a small ship unless you want to actually use them for science. For combat they'd be redundant.
That's why what appears to be the sensors on the Defiant (those things at the top) are so small surfaces: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080717170412/memoryalpha/en/images/e/e3/USS_Defiant_firing_phaser_cannons.jpg
Also we've seen in episodes where the Defiant was used for science the scientists actually neede to bring their own science equipment because...well the ship was totally unsuited for that purpose.;)
im not even sure that picture is an strometric lab, and if it was, it wasn't a good one, cause they contructed a new on in the stellar cartography lab that 7 built.. she said time and time again that they did not have the facilitys necessary for her research and what not.. , which is why they built that lab, and her lab was a multi lab, that on the show, said by a lot of the crew filled a gap in equipment they did not have before..
every ship has sensors. "every ship" even the defient.. the fact that the section of hull that you "presume" are sensors, but could actually be something entirely different means nothing.
I do not say they didn't have those labs, but it was made painfully clear in the show on certain occasions, that they did not have said recources. janeway, and belana, and a few others comment that they did not have the facilities of a larger vessel.
and I already said that they had to use the holodec as a makeshift lab here and there.. but it was in the holodec.
i also stated, that it didn't matter the color of shirt before, it wasn't just meant to go against the science thing, but i look at harry kim as more of a sci officer than anything else.. but still, there is a distinct lack of sci officers onboard the ship. 90 percent of the people you see, are engineers, or command, or tactical and security.
and im not saying that voyager had "no" exploration value to her.. but i did say it was not her first function when designed.. Starfleet, would design their vessels to serve multiple roles..
but in the interest of the argument, voyager is not a "science" vessel, at the very least, it should have been a cruiser (in game terms).
its like i said before.. there is an argument for every side. but the lack of facilities, the fact that janeway and other crew members (ie, tom paris saying the ship was a combat vessel, not built for comfort) (janeway, stated many times the ship was more geared for combat that anything else), even when they first approach her, the way that hot little helms woman describes her is more of a combat description than anything..
and again, they didn't send a nova to look for tuvok.. they sent a ship into a dangerous situation that they knew could handle it..
even if the defient had been slingshotted to the delta quadrant, they would still try to explore, and adapt like the crew did.. and then you could argue that it too, was a science vessel explorer..
and while voyager wasn't as un suited for exploration and science, it was a far cry from an actual research vessel.. and that i know was stated several times on the show..
im not even sure that picture is an strometric lab, and if it was, it wasn't a good one, cause they contructed a new on in the stellar cartography lab that 7 built.. she said time and time again that they did not have the facilitys necessary for her research and what not.. , which is why they built that lab, and her lab was a multi lab, that on the show, said by a lot of the crew filled a gap in equipment they did not have before..
every ship has sensors. "every ship" even the defient.. the fact that the section of hull that you "presume" are sensors, but could actually be something entirely different means nothing.
I do not say they didn't have those labs, but it was made painfully clear in the show on certain occasions, that they did not have said recources. janeway, and belana, and a few others comment that they did not have the facilities of a larger vessel.
and I already said that they had to use the holodec as a makeshift lab here and there.. but it was in the holodec.
i also stated, that it didn't matter the color of shirt before, it wasn't just meant to go against the science thing, but i look at harry kim as more of a sci officer than anything else.. but still, there is a distinct lack of sci officers onboard the ship. 90 percent of the people you see, are engineers, or command, or tactical and security.
and im not saying that voyager had "no" exploration value to her.. but i did say it was not her first function when designed.. Starfleet, would design their vessels to serve multiple roles..
but in the interest of the argument, voyager is not a "science" vessel, at the very least, it should have been a cruiser (in game terms).
its like i said before.. there is an argument for every side. but the lack of facilities, the fact that janeway and other crew members (ie, tom paris saying the ship was a combat vessel, not built for comfort) (janeway, stated many times the ship was more geared for combat that anything else), even when they first approach her, the way that hot little helms woman describes her is more of a combat description than anything..
and again, they didn't send a nova to look for tuvok.. they sent a ship into a dangerous situation that they knew could handle it..
even if the defient had been slingshotted to the delta quadrant, they would still try to explore, and adapt like the crew did.. and then you could argue that it too, was a science vessel explorer..
and while voyager wasn't as un suited for exploration and science, it was a far cry from an actual research vessel.. and that i know was stated several times on the show..
I don't remember Voyager ever being stated as unsuitable for exploration. For long term exploration, maybe. But exploration, no.
And what it is in canon has little bearing on what it should be in STO. If we were to follow canon, most ships Fed side would be cruisers, there would be only three Romulan ships, and everyone and their mother could fly a Klingon Bird of Prey.
Not really. The only real fruits in preparation for further Borg encounters were first the Sovereign & Defiant classes, at least in movie & TV show timeframes. The Sovereign was the first to field Starfleet's best, latest technology. But the Borg threat was lessened, so these platforms and their priority was on the backburner. Sovereign class technology was so new and cutting edge that you really don't hear much of its subsystems making its way into new vessel designs and existing ship refits, not even by Dominion War timeframe.
*IF* Starfleet was actually preparing for the Borg, they did a horrible job of it, i.e. "First Contact." 1 Borg Cube cutting through a fleet of Starfleet vessels like it was a kid carefully, methodically, swinging at pinatas without a blindfold. Hell, one of the ships purpose built to fight the Borg, the Defiant, was b**chslapped around and would have been destroyed were it not for the Enterprise-E's arrival.
lol, it was still a much better fight than wolf 359, and don't forget, the borg adapt pretty quickly..
also, the akira, the steamrunner, the sabre, and arguably the intrepid were all also designed at fighting the borg to name a few.
we simply do not know what kind of subsystems and what not made it into other ships from the big E.. we only know the hero ships, and a select few others. the akira is mentioned in soft canon sources as being a pretty cutting edge tactical vessel. we don't know anything about anything else. infact we know nothing at all, except that there were a whole slew of the above mentioned ships (minus the intrepid) in first contact.. leading me to believe that Starfleet was throwing ships that were designed to handle the borg at them (weather it worked or not lol). lots of akiras, steamrunners, sabres, norways, and 1 defient lol.. and the enterprise wasn't the defining ship that turned the tied, it was picard.. had he not known where to shoot, the enterprise im sure would have been eventually destroyed if they couldn't escape.. and less you forget, it took everything the fleet had to destroy it, not just the ent. E
i think the reason we did not see an intrepid there, is due to issues with licensing, and not wanting to take away the focus of the ship in the voyager show.. there is an interview where they talk about how ds9 was having all sorts of troubles with designing the defient, which was originally supposed to be named something else, but it started with a v, and cbs said no cause of voyager coming out.. it was stated that there was not a lot of sharing going on in the shows in the beginning.. even though voyager starts at ds9, that was about it.. also, first contact used all cgi ships (which is how ds9 got a cgi rendering for the defient, best thing that happened in that show to be honest lol)
so the intrepid not being in some battle scenes is less about the intrepid not being capable (cause we all know that is not the case lol) but more logistics and behind the scenes polatics..
I don't remember Voyager ever being stated as unsuitable for exploration. For long term exploration, maybe. But exploration, no.
And what it is in canon has little bearing on what it should be in STO. If we were to follow canon, most ships Fed side would be cruisers, there would be only three Romulan ships, and everyone and their mother could fly a Klingon Bird of Prey.
oh no doubt, but they at least tried to make most ships kinda what they were (minus the galaxy and the intrepid), but the argument im seeing most people making is, either the ship should be tac, or the ship should be sci. in that i choose tac, it makes more sense. however, if im designing a game around star trek, and the intrepid comes up, you know they struggled with this like we are now lol, i would have put it in the middle. that way, its a little of everything.. which is kind of what voyager was.. a little of everything..
i never said it was unsuitable for exploration, but they did struggle cause they were not first designed for it..
its kind of nieve to believe that a ship voyagers size, was built to explore first.. when you have ships like galaxy classes (which, when the intrepid was released, was less than 10 years old). and nebula classes with class specific pods, and sovereign classes on the drawing table, and ambassador classes that have the room for scientific and exploratory equipment. it is very hard to sell me on the intrepid being built for exploration and scientific discovery first..
even the defient carries enouph equipment to scan and make sense of data.. look at the battle where they found the power regulator for the defense plat forms.. or all the times they took detailed scans of other vessels or the founders homeworld.. sure, they didn't have the equipment to extrapolate every piece of data from their scans.. but they could make them, and send them to Starfleet for assessment (as they did a few times).
like i said, the intrepid class, in my humble opinion, was a vessel designed to act as a patrol vessel, to be on the front lines in conflict, and handle itself, but it wasn't as bare bones as say the defient. it had a secondary purpose, which was starfleets cause of exploration, but it was far from the best equipped ship for the job.. i see it as a ship that didn't go out into the unknown, but rather would take planetary surveys, or back up other exploration vessels in their studies..
like i said, the intrepid class, in my humble opinion, was a vessel designed to act as a patrol vessel, to be on the front lines in conflict, and handle itself, but it wasn't as bare bones as say the defient. it had a secondary purpose, which was starfleets cause of exploration, but it was far from the best equipped ship for the job.. i see it as a ship that didn't go out into the unknown, but rather would take planetary surveys, or back up other exploration vessels in their studies..
And that is all that it is your opinion which is fine to have. However canonically on screen the Intrepid class is said to be primarily for exploration so that is its intended function. It also makes perfect sense to build a Intrepid over a Galaxy or a Sovereign as they are smaller and far easier and cheaper to produce while filling the exploration roll as well if not better.
Also the Intrepid class is stated to have the fastest computer in Starfleet at the time of Voyagers launch which would lend itself to analysing a lot of data, data collected from exploring not patrolling.
i never said it was unsuitable for exploration, but they did struggle cause they were not first designed for it..
They were designed for it. Not all exploration requires you to be away from home for years. Plus, in Voyagers case, they were not planning to be gone that long so they likely didn't stock up for anything beyond a short term mission (in fact, I'm pretty sure this is implied heavily).
its kind of nieve to believe that a ship voyagers size, was built to explore first.. when you have ships like galaxy classes (which, when the intrepid was released, was less than 10 years old). and nebula classes with class specific pods, and sovereign classes on the drawing table, and ambassador classes that have the room for scientific and exploratory equipment. it is very hard to sell me on the intrepid being built for exploration and scientific discovery first..
All Starfleet ships are built to explore first, with a few exceptions. What kind of exploration, and how far they are expected to be from home, is largely what differs. The Galaxy Class was designed to be away from home for long periods of time, the Intrepid class was not. Doesn't mean it doesn't explore, but that it doesn't explore for as long.
like i said, the intrepid class, in my humble opinion, was a vessel designed to act as a patrol vessel, to be on the front lines in conflict, and handle itself, but it wasn't as bare bones as say the defient. it had a secondary purpose, which was starfleets cause of exploration, but it was far from the best equipped ship for the job.. i see it as a ship that didn't go out into the unknown, but rather would take planetary surveys, or back up other exploration vessels in their studies..
You're opinion is fine, and the ships may be able to fit that role in a more combat sense. That doesn't change the fact that the Intrepid is meant for exploration. The Galaxy Class can act like a heavy cruiser/battleship, but that doesn't mean that it's not build for exploration.
To clear something up I saw mentioned earlier, the main reason Voyager was going after the Maquis in the premier was that it was one of the few Starfleet ships that could successfully navigate in the Badlands.
oh like i said, the intrepid class, in my humble opinion, was a vessel designed to act as a patrol vessel, to be on the front lines in conflict, and handle itself, but it wasn't as bare bones as say the defient. it had a secondary purpose, which was starfleets cause of exploration, but it was far from the best equipped ship for the job.. i see it as a ship that didn't go out into the unknown, but rather would take planetary surveys, or back up other exploration vessels in their studies..
And this, looking at Voyager's deficiencies, makes the most sense. She can do basic science surveys, maneuver in hostile environments and even land if need be. She is light footed and well armed to win a battle against smaller and some equal scale vessels. But she is not set up with the labs to be very far from friendly territory. (Looking at you astrometrics) The crew comfort details are lacking for long range exploration, (walls to thin for noisy hobbies.)
And she is not a warship as seen by her onboard stores of munitions. She only kept having such weapons because she kept bartering the one thing she seemed to have a large supply of. Medical supplies. This sounds like a ship intended to patrol inside or just outside the Federation borders and perform as a first response ship and interdictor as needed against smugglers/pirates. (Two things people do not seem to bat an eye about existing even in Federation space.)
As to Defiant and how well she did against the borg cube in First Contact. I would say she did fine as the tactic most likely to be used for this type of gunship would be to organize squadrons of them to pulverize a heavy target like a cube. Sending only one and then saying it wasn't good enough is akin to saying one torpedo should be enough to take out a dozen warships. It isn't how they properly work. (Though I wonder why Defiant never got an EMH?)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
And this, looking at Voyager's deficiencies, makes the most sense. She can do basic science surveys, maneuver in hostile environments and even land if need be. She is light footed and well armed to win a battle against smaller and some equal scale vessels. But she is not set up with the labs to be very far from friendly territory. (Looking at you astrometrics) The crew comfort details are lacking for long range exploration, (walls to thin for noisy hobbies.)
And she is not a warship as seen by her onboard stores of munitions. She only kept having such weapons because she kept bartering the one thing she seemed to have a large supply of. Medical supplies. This sounds like a ship intended to patrol inside or just outside the Federation borders and perform as a first response ship and interdictor as needed against smugglers/pirates. (Two things people do not seem to bat an eye about existing even in Federation space.)
As to Defiant and how well she did against the borg cube in First Contact. I would say she did fine as the tactic most likely to be used for this type of gunship would be to organize squadrons of them to pulverize a heavy target like a cube. Sending only one and then saying it wasn't good enough is akin to saying one torpedo should be enough to take out a dozen warships. It isn't how they properly work. (Though I wonder why Defiant never got an EMH?)
i couldn't have said it better.
like i said, i have watched voyager to the point of nausea the last few months.. (ive had some time on my hands). not once did i ever hear voyager refered to as an exploration vessel. the only time janeway says exploration, is when she references the federation, and what their goal is as she explains the "federations" mission statement
everyone keeps ignoring the fact that time and time again, voyager is referenced as being more of a combat vessel. like i said, janeway said it numerous times. tuvok has said it, chakotay, and paris. these are all fresher in my memory.. there is a scene as someone else stated in here, where paris says to harry something along the lines of voyager is a combat vessel, not designed with comfort in mind. (not the exact quote, but i just heard this recently.. janeway talks about the same thing a few times.. while making log entries, and or discussing their situation with others..
several times during several episodes, they talk about not having the proper facilities to properly examine something, or not having the right recources.
and as i have said, sevens pet project there, was all about creating some of the said missing facilities and recources.
none of that even remotely points at an exploration or science.
fast computers can be just as good for targeting systems, and relaying vital information during combat. the very first thing they talk about when referring to the "faster computers" was the healm response time. the last i checked, your ship didn't need to be super menuverable to properly catalog scientific data.
and yes, they get a smaller ship than the galaxy, but its not like the galaxy needed to be replaced at the time.. there was a whole fleet of ships that were better suited for exploration. the timing just didn't seem right to reinvent the exploration ship.. plus. they had the nova, and the luna class vessels being built about the same time. why build so many different classes for the same purpose.
i agree with the quoted response. voyager was a patrol ship designed to deal with medium level threats within, or just outside of the federations borders.. which is exactly what it did in the first episode. it did what it was designed to do, go into the bad lands, where there is danger from the maquies, the cardassians, and other pirate activity, and do its job.
No one is ignoring, people just don't think it happens time and time again.
People are also pointing out that outside of a few ships, there are very few built specifically to fight. Mos Federation ships are explorers first, everything else second. The Intrepid class still fits even if it wasn't built for the same kind of exploration a Galaxy class was. You keep on trying to say it was a combat vessel with little evidence that it was since everything, including canon, disagrees with you.
Not all explorers are built to explore equally. Not all explorers need to have everything a Galaxy class is because not all exploration is the same. It's why the Nova class was said to be built for planetary survey rather than just a generic science vessel, because not all science vessels are made the same. But it could also be used as a scout ship.
EDIT: Also, keep in mind that just because it was designed to be an explorer does not mean that it can't do other jobs. Galaxy class ships are explorers, but they are also likely to do patrol missions, interdiction missions, sending medical supplies, serving as battleship, etc.
No one is ignoring, people just don't think it happens time and time again.
People are also pointing out that outside of a few ships, there are very few built specifically to fight. Mos Federation ships are explorers first, everything else second. The Intrepid class still fits even if it wasn't built for the same kind of exploration a Galaxy class was. You keep on trying to say it was a combat vessel with little evidence that it was since everything, including canon, disagrees with you.
Not all explorers are built to explore equally. Not all explorers need to have everything a Galaxy class is because not all exploration is the same. It's why the Nova class was said to be built for planetary survey rather than just a generic science vessel, because not all science vessels are made the same. But it could also be used as a scout ship.
im not seeing where your getting it being an exploration vessel out of canon. i really don't.. ive watched every episode up and down. there is more evidence in the entire show against it being a specialized exploration vessel, than there is that it was built more for combat.
weather you like the facts or not, you cant just think what you like, and then start throwing words like canon in to try and debunk others thoughts.. everyone keeps throwing non canon sources at us, and trying to say its fact.. im saying, watch the gd show. it says left and right that the intrepid class (or more specifically voyager) was built as some sort of more combat oriented vessel than your average ship.
it also left and right tells you that they struggled to do anything scientific, and anything exploratory, cause they were not fully equipped to do so.
im not trying to say that the intrepid was built as a stop gap, to end all wars, and be something like the defient. however, as evidence by the show, it was built with combat in mind, before exploration. or it would have gotten all the appropriate facilities, and crew, and they wouldn't refer to it as a combat oriented vessel every other episode.
also, people need to stop thinking of Starfleet as the oll might explorers who never think of offense.. that went out the window half way through tng. as is evidence by the ships we start to see emerge.
sure, im not saying they stopped making exploration ships, but they went on a bender of building ships that were more fighters than explorers, some more silly than others.. like the akiras 12 torp tubes lol.. don't know the reason you would need 12 torp tubes when modern torp tubes can fire multiple in short order. but whatevs..
the fact of the matter is, that Starfleet started designing more for combat. the whole theory behing the titan books (which is soft canon since cbs backs it up, its not true canon as its never on screen, but you get my point). as stated in the first book, the luna class was meant to bring Starfleet back into the business of exploration, and the ship was designed solery to do so. it is said in the book, that the luna line is the first in a long while to get exploration as a first thought, and priority in the build..
so just to clear it up, im not saying that the intrepid was totally inept at being an explorer, it just doesn't seem to have been built with it as its first thought. in game, the ship should have been an escort, if not, a cruiser.. sci is stretching it a little far.. i mean seriously, the ship didn't have a stellar cartography lab lol.. and it barely had some of the other labs..
we have been over this before on the forums, somewhere in the achives is a few threads like this, in those, i believe some of us went through, and got exact quotes from the show that proved (weather you wanted to listen or not) that the intrepid was a ship built for combat. not saying its warship voyager, but it was beafier than most other vessels of its size.
even if you look at it as an explorer with more extensive defenses, and offensive abilities, it still doesn't belong in the sci ship category.. i believe this ship should be in the slot the Prometheus is in. an escort, with more of a sci seating to it.
the Prometheus should have a much more aggressive boff seating, as in the episode it was in, was refered to as the most advanced tactical ship in the fleet. (not saying its bad, i run one on a toon, its awesome, but the seating makes it feel a little less canon.). it would have also been nice to have a ship that had a more conventional Starfleet design (like the intrepid) in the escort mix.
According to Memory Alpha.... well, you probably don't want to hear that Voyager was designed for long-term exploration missions. The Prometheus, on the other hand, was designed for deep-space tactical missions.
I find the information on there quite amusing:
Intrepid class armament: Phaser arrays, phaser banks, spatial charges and torpedo tubes compatible with photon torpedoes, quantum torpedoes, and tricobalt devices
Prometheus class armament: Phaser arrays, photon torpedo launchers
I find the information on there quite amusing:
Intrepid class armament: Phaser arrays, phaser banks, spatial charges and torpedo tubes compatible with photon torpedoes, quantum torpedoes, and tricobalt devices
Prometheus class armament: Phaser arrays, photon torpedo launchers
That's going off of what was shown on the screen. The Prometheus in its very very short screen time only used beams.
First, all Federation ships are designed for exploration.
I throw canon around because, in canon it says it was designed for long range exploration. See here:http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Intrepid_class. If this is wrong, feel free to correct it since that only has canon information. That comes from the show since the shown is the only thing considered canon.
Not all exploration needs to be done with all the facilities a Galaxy class ship has to be considered designed for exploration, that point is completely moot. Just like you can have different ships for different combat roles you can have different ships for different exploration roles.
Funniest part of this is it being an explorer first does not invalidate any thing you said about the ship. The Galaxy class being an explorer does not also mean its not a powerful warship. This is what you seem to not be able to understand. Being beefier for its size doesn't make it designed for combat, it just means its more advanced nth an other ships that size. And likely its combat role is what you described.
Again, the fact that its a science ship in STO is meaningless. And even as a scicne ship in STO its pretty damned good. And its not likely to change no matter how you try to get it to.
Funniest part of this is it being an explorer first does not invalidate any thing you said about the ship.
Yeah, way back in like my second post I mentioned that the classification in this game is arbitrary and that there will be tons of examples of each ship doing other things outside the classification of this game's narrow scope.
There's a lot of evidence that Voyager was more than a science ship. And the Enterprise-D was more than an exploration ship with classrooms and kids on board.
Which makes for great discussion and debate.
But at the end of this thread, Cryptic is still not changing the Intrepid ship in its game to a 4/3 can equip DHCs and upping its turn rate to 17 and removing sensory analysis, beam target subsystems and not giving it a secondary deflector.
It's staying as a science ship. Like you said. (Only reason I quoted you was to agree with you).
But it is definitely fun reliving all those old episodes of Voyager and re-reading Memory Alpha. Love that site.
Idk. I feel that if the intrepid class was a tactical ship, it would've had more armor and more powerful shields and phasers. The Prometheus, now there's a tactical ship. Purely designed to destroy. Bear in mind that Captain Janeway was a scientist first and foremost. I doubt she would have been Voyager's captain if she were of a military mindset. No, Voyager, was a science vessel alright, but with a military application.
Question, Regarding the lack of an Astrometrics lab when she left spacedock
When we first see voyager they have only just gotten her ready to go, so is it beyond the relms of possibility she was always supposed to have one (definitely capable of operating one) and that they cut time by not installing a system that wouldn't be needed for hunting marquee?
So is it not possible Intrepid Class has the lab on the specs as standard? Perhaps voyagers was due to be installed on tuesday? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HG_Hx-0ulQ after all the Enterprise B had no tractor beam, medical staff or torpedoes when it left dock
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Besides, if we go on what was seen on screen, the Galaxy rarely explored, but actually more of warship than anything. The ship pretty much does what USN San Antonio-class LPDs does. They patrol, they fight pirates, they render aid to anyone that needs it, but they are relatively more powerful than there contemporaries.
It was hinted that Riker was offered command of Voyager first. (which as tongue in-cheek to one of the first proposals of Voyager, Riker and Troi series)
At the point of the timeline that the Intrepid class was introduced, the Defiant was still an anomaly, as in the Federation still didn't classify ships as warships of any kind. Voyager, as the first Intrepid class, was designed as a showcase ship. They slapped as much new tech as possible on a ship and brought it out to DS9 for a test drive. That test drive, due to circumstance, ended up being a mission against the Maquis. That ended up being pretty much a disaster.
In any case, Voyager was pretty much an anomaly in regard to the Intrepid class as a whole, and the Intrepid class certainly wasn't designed to be a warship, though like the majority of Federation starship designs, is designed to be able to at least hold up in a fight.
The design of the Intrepid class is meant for long range, but not deep space missions. As in, it was always expected to work within reasonable range to Federation space. Voyager more so, considering its status as the first in its line, with prototype technologies onboard.
As in real life, the designs of most of the starships in the Federation at least tend to fit a concept or a role more than a class. The class system is more a construct for in-game.
The Intrepid class certainly doesn't fit in the Cruiser class, nor does it fit in as an escort, looking at the types of ships that fill the Escort class. That leaves, for better or for worse, Science, despite the fact that the original design of the Intrepid class was none of the above.
The design for the Intrepid fits a role: long range missions within Federation space in a support role (considering its size and the push for speed that its pylon design supposedly was supposed to assist with).
Again, the design is far and away not an Escort design, especially considering that at the time, Escorts such as the Defiant were not even a recognized role: ships were either designed to function self-sufficiently for long periods of time, or simply work within the confines of safe Federation space. The Intrepid certainly doesn't fit the big ambassadorian feel of the Galaxy or its type. Even the Nebula is considered mainly a workhorse type ship, meant to be capable in multiple ways, and not necessarily a Science ship.
Perhaps the biggest problem with the Intrepid design as is in STO comes from the fact that Federation ships simply weren't given Universal BOff slots from the get go. That was a Klingon-only feature at the time. The game, however, has changed a lot, and maybe giving the Intrepid a Universal BOff, even if only for the Fleet version, would make more sense for the kind of ship it really is, now that times have changed in terms of game design. I'm otherwise fine with having it fall within the Science ship "class" simply because class doesn't mean much to me anymore, and doesn't define a ship as much as it used to at launch. The Intrepid, however, wasn't quite as Science oriented as the game would lead you to believe.
Yeah, way back in like my second post I mentioned that the classification in this game is arbitrary and that there will be tons of examples of each ship doing other things outside the classification of this game's narrow scope.
There's a lot of evidence that Voyager was more than a science ship. And the Enterprise-D was more than an exploration ship with classrooms and kids on board.
Which makes for great discussion and debate.
But at the end of this thread, Cryptic is still not changing the Intrepid ship in its game to a 4/3 can equip DHCs and upping its turn rate to 17 and removing sensory analysis, beam target subsystems and not giving it a secondary deflector.
It's staying as a science ship. Like you said. (Only reason I quoted you was to agree with you).
But it is definitely fun reliving all those old episodes of Voyager and re-reading Memory Alpha. Love that site.
I'm more here for the canon debate than I am for debate around what it should be in game. As a science ship in game, it's not a horrible ship by any stretch of the imagination (to be honest, neither is the Galaxy). And if you want to fly it as a tactical captain you can, so I'm not sure why it's really a problem with it being a science ship.
People need to realise that just because Starfleet designs their ship for exploration first (usually, Defiant and Prometheus being the known exceptions), that doesn't mean that they are also not designed with a combat role in mind either. And the role described here for combat likely fits that. Which would also fit for a science ship in STO.
Canon Voyager is a tactical ship, that's beyond question. Not sure why Cryptic slotted it to science, or why CBS okayed it. Voyager was created by UPN, and the series ended before the studio suffered a hostile takeover by CBS. Maybe they didn't know, or more likely didn't care. But it was a mistake. The game may be old, but Cryptic should still correct the mistake, instead of continue the mistake.
No, its not. It never was. I know some people will like to see Voyager as a tactical ship, but it will never happen because its impossible. Voyager was always a science vessel. And also never heard in the shows calling the Voyager "tactical", i cant even imagine it.
Not the ship abilities , or the ship systems in the show were designed for tactical purposes. The Voyager became more tactical when started to mount borg weapons and borg derived systems. But until then, it was a pure science ship.
Besides, if we go on what was seen on screen, the Galaxy rarely explored, but actually more of warship than anything. The ship pretty much does what USN San Antonio-class LPDs does. They patrol, they fight pirates, they render aid to anyone that needs it, but they are relatively more powerful than there contemporaries.
It was hinted that Riker was offered command of Voyager first. (which as tongue in-cheek to one of the first proposals of Voyager, Riker and Troi series)
NOTE: I am not saying that eldarion was saying that we should go by what's on screen, as that's not what I got from this post at all. I'm simply expanding on what was said.
I would say that it's not fair to judge a ship's role based on the ship presented on the show (except for the Defiant--that ship was designed for express purpose as a quick strike warship). One would assume that every other Galaxy class that wasn't called "Enterprise" was doing boring stuff like ferrying supplies and people and providing diplomatic support across Federation space. Its design is somewhere between a space cruise ship and a mobile support/command/aid centre. In all practicality, the Galaxy makes little sense.
However, all Federation ships were designed to at least be able to defend themselves, and for story reasons, Enterprise automatically had to fly around with a big target on its back to keep things interesting. If every ship in the Federation had as much action as the Enterprise did, the Federation would have probably dropped the peaceful exploration stuff ages ago.
Voyager, simply due to its being flung into the Delta quadrant and doing most anything (but not really) to get back home, put itself into a lot of bad situations it had to shoot its way out of. Designed with a bit of everything and a kitchen sink as a prototype, the crew was fortunate they had it instead of most other Fed ships. Of course, that's all part of the story.
Had Voyager's original mission against the Maquis succeeded, they would have just headed back to DS9, docked for a bit, then headed back to the shipyards for some tweaking until it was reliable ship of the line, and gone on to its regular, mostly boring duties.
Again, before Defiant, no Federation ship was designed for the sole purpose of combat. Wanting to reclassify the Intrepid class as some kind of warship doesn't make sense. If the term "tactical" was ever mentioned connected to the Intrepid class, it does not mean as a front-of-line warship, but as a tactical asset of a paramilitary organization: that it has its uses in terms of logistics and some amount of combat. That can be very different from a front line warship. One does not equate the other.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
The USS Intrepid would probably have been the first in that line. Just sayin'
Yeah, that always bugged me. Voyager was clearly a prototype "show how much tech you can cram into a ship" design. The design had never been even hinted at before Voyager (the show) was launched, yet they called it Intrepid class with the Voyager name.
Then again, the same thing happened with Enterprise, though I think everyone assumes that's the exception, since the Enterprise name holds special significance amongst Starfleet.
Whatever, it's a show. Naming conventions are often an afterthought for most writers, even in the generally nitpicky science fiction genre.
Comments
The only ships we know of from actual canon that were built specifically for fighting were the Defiant class and the Prometheus class. Everything else is speculation. Hell, the Prometheus likely had a pretty good chance at doing exploration as well (more than the Defiant anyway).
What the ship designation is in Star Trek Online is moot to what the ship was in canon. In canon, the Akira class is a cruiser. Yet in game the Akira is an escort.
As we saw with people like the Cosmologist not even those have to be wearing a blue shirt...
Also, Voyager had:
an astrometric lab
and these:
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111210223005/memoryalpha/en/images/6/68/Science_laboratory_VOY.jpg
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Holographic_research_lab
are you telling me these did not exist on the show?
What about the holodecks that could easily hold a quarter of the crew at the time?
Those would be there on top of the holographic research lab.
Does that sound like combat ship to you?
What about all those big sensor arrays on the outside of the hull?
http://employees.csbsju.edu/rsorensen/modelcitizen/trekships/intrepid/voycloseup.jpg
http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww77/ariesspyder/800px-Intrepid-explosion1_zpsa3691ed9.jpg
remember: the big difference between the Defiant Pathfinder and the Nova were the big sensor arrays and the secondary deflector
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090925011549/startrek/images/c/cb/Defiant_pathfinder.jpg
http://www.strekschematics.utvinternet.com/shipgallery/shipgallery1/nova.jpg
same as those you see on the Intrepid class and that are absent from combat ships like the Defiant. [On the Galaxy class the sensor surfaces are barely visible due to the ship's massive size.] On the Intrepid class they take up as much sirface as the phaser strips.
You don't include those big sensors into the physical makeup of such a small ship unless you want to actually use them for science. For combat they'd be redundant.
That's why what appears to be the sensors on the Defiant (those things at the top) are so small surfaces:
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080717170412/memoryalpha/en/images/e/e3/USS_Defiant_firing_phaser_cannons.jpg
Also we've seen in episodes where the Defiant was used for science the scientists actually neede to bring their own science equipment because...well the ship was totally unsuited for that purpose.;)
Not really. The only real fruits in preparation for further Borg encounters were first the Sovereign & Defiant classes, at least in movie & TV show timeframes. The Sovereign was the first to field Starfleet's best, latest technology. But the Borg threat was lessened, so these platforms and their priority was on the backburner. Sovereign class technology was so new and cutting edge that you really don't hear much of its subsystems making its way into new vessel designs and existing ship refits, not even by Dominion War timeframe.
*IF* Starfleet was actually preparing for the Borg, they did a horrible job of it, i.e. "First Contact." 1 Borg Cube cutting through a fleet of Starfleet vessels like it was a kid carefully, methodically, swinging at pinatas without a blindfold. Hell, one of the ships purpose built to fight the Borg, the Defiant, was b**chslapped around and would have been destroyed were it not for the Enterprise-E's arrival.
What this likely means is that there were more combat dedicated starships, like the Defiant and Prometheus, while the rest of Starfleet's ships likely were getting more powerful, advanced weapondry. This doesn't change, in my opinion, their primary role as explorers, just that the ships were were heavily armed than they would have been without the Borg threat.
im not even sure that picture is an strometric lab, and if it was, it wasn't a good one, cause they contructed a new on in the stellar cartography lab that 7 built.. she said time and time again that they did not have the facilitys necessary for her research and what not.. , which is why they built that lab, and her lab was a multi lab, that on the show, said by a lot of the crew filled a gap in equipment they did not have before..
every ship has sensors. "every ship" even the defient.. the fact that the section of hull that you "presume" are sensors, but could actually be something entirely different means nothing.
I do not say they didn't have those labs, but it was made painfully clear in the show on certain occasions, that they did not have said recources. janeway, and belana, and a few others comment that they did not have the facilities of a larger vessel.
and I already said that they had to use the holodec as a makeshift lab here and there.. but it was in the holodec.
i also stated, that it didn't matter the color of shirt before, it wasn't just meant to go against the science thing, but i look at harry kim as more of a sci officer than anything else.. but still, there is a distinct lack of sci officers onboard the ship. 90 percent of the people you see, are engineers, or command, or tactical and security.
and im not saying that voyager had "no" exploration value to her.. but i did say it was not her first function when designed.. Starfleet, would design their vessels to serve multiple roles..
but in the interest of the argument, voyager is not a "science" vessel, at the very least, it should have been a cruiser (in game terms).
its like i said before.. there is an argument for every side. but the lack of facilities, the fact that janeway and other crew members (ie, tom paris saying the ship was a combat vessel, not built for comfort) (janeway, stated many times the ship was more geared for combat that anything else), even when they first approach her, the way that hot little helms woman describes her is more of a combat description than anything..
and again, they didn't send a nova to look for tuvok.. they sent a ship into a dangerous situation that they knew could handle it..
even if the defient had been slingshotted to the delta quadrant, they would still try to explore, and adapt like the crew did.. and then you could argue that it too, was a science vessel explorer..
and while voyager wasn't as un suited for exploration and science, it was a far cry from an actual research vessel.. and that i know was stated several times on the show..
And what it is in canon has little bearing on what it should be in STO. If we were to follow canon, most ships Fed side would be cruisers, there would be only three Romulan ships, and everyone and their mother could fly a Klingon Bird of Prey.
lol, it was still a much better fight than wolf 359, and don't forget, the borg adapt pretty quickly..
also, the akira, the steamrunner, the sabre, and arguably the intrepid were all also designed at fighting the borg to name a few.
we simply do not know what kind of subsystems and what not made it into other ships from the big E.. we only know the hero ships, and a select few others. the akira is mentioned in soft canon sources as being a pretty cutting edge tactical vessel. we don't know anything about anything else. infact we know nothing at all, except that there were a whole slew of the above mentioned ships (minus the intrepid) in first contact.. leading me to believe that Starfleet was throwing ships that were designed to handle the borg at them (weather it worked or not lol). lots of akiras, steamrunners, sabres, norways, and 1 defient lol.. and the enterprise wasn't the defining ship that turned the tied, it was picard.. had he not known where to shoot, the enterprise im sure would have been eventually destroyed if they couldn't escape.. and less you forget, it took everything the fleet had to destroy it, not just the ent. E
i think the reason we did not see an intrepid there, is due to issues with licensing, and not wanting to take away the focus of the ship in the voyager show.. there is an interview where they talk about how ds9 was having all sorts of troubles with designing the defient, which was originally supposed to be named something else, but it started with a v, and cbs said no cause of voyager coming out.. it was stated that there was not a lot of sharing going on in the shows in the beginning.. even though voyager starts at ds9, that was about it.. also, first contact used all cgi ships (which is how ds9 got a cgi rendering for the defient, best thing that happened in that show to be honest lol)
so the intrepid not being in some battle scenes is less about the intrepid not being capable (cause we all know that is not the case lol) but more logistics and behind the scenes polatics..
oh no doubt, but they at least tried to make most ships kinda what they were (minus the galaxy and the intrepid), but the argument im seeing most people making is, either the ship should be tac, or the ship should be sci. in that i choose tac, it makes more sense. however, if im designing a game around star trek, and the intrepid comes up, you know they struggled with this like we are now lol, i would have put it in the middle. that way, its a little of everything.. which is kind of what voyager was.. a little of everything..
i never said it was unsuitable for exploration, but they did struggle cause they were not first designed for it..
its kind of nieve to believe that a ship voyagers size, was built to explore first.. when you have ships like galaxy classes (which, when the intrepid was released, was less than 10 years old). and nebula classes with class specific pods, and sovereign classes on the drawing table, and ambassador classes that have the room for scientific and exploratory equipment. it is very hard to sell me on the intrepid being built for exploration and scientific discovery first..
even the defient carries enouph equipment to scan and make sense of data.. look at the battle where they found the power regulator for the defense plat forms.. or all the times they took detailed scans of other vessels or the founders homeworld.. sure, they didn't have the equipment to extrapolate every piece of data from their scans.. but they could make them, and send them to Starfleet for assessment (as they did a few times).
like i said, the intrepid class, in my humble opinion, was a vessel designed to act as a patrol vessel, to be on the front lines in conflict, and handle itself, but it wasn't as bare bones as say the defient. it had a secondary purpose, which was starfleets cause of exploration, but it was far from the best equipped ship for the job.. i see it as a ship that didn't go out into the unknown, but rather would take planetary surveys, or back up other exploration vessels in their studies..
And that is all that it is your opinion which is fine to have. However canonically on screen the Intrepid class is said to be primarily for exploration so that is its intended function. It also makes perfect sense to build a Intrepid over a Galaxy or a Sovereign as they are smaller and far easier and cheaper to produce while filling the exploration roll as well if not better.
Also the Intrepid class is stated to have the fastest computer in Starfleet at the time of Voyagers launch which would lend itself to analysing a lot of data, data collected from exploring not patrolling.
They were designed for it. Not all exploration requires you to be away from home for years. Plus, in Voyagers case, they were not planning to be gone that long so they likely didn't stock up for anything beyond a short term mission (in fact, I'm pretty sure this is implied heavily).
All Starfleet ships are built to explore first, with a few exceptions. What kind of exploration, and how far they are expected to be from home, is largely what differs. The Galaxy Class was designed to be away from home for long periods of time, the Intrepid class was not. Doesn't mean it doesn't explore, but that it doesn't explore for as long.
You're opinion is fine, and the ships may be able to fit that role in a more combat sense. That doesn't change the fact that the Intrepid is meant for exploration. The Galaxy Class can act like a heavy cruiser/battleship, but that doesn't mean that it's not build for exploration.
To clear something up I saw mentioned earlier, the main reason Voyager was going after the Maquis in the premier was that it was one of the few Starfleet ships that could successfully navigate in the Badlands.
And this, looking at Voyager's deficiencies, makes the most sense. She can do basic science surveys, maneuver in hostile environments and even land if need be. She is light footed and well armed to win a battle against smaller and some equal scale vessels. But she is not set up with the labs to be very far from friendly territory. (Looking at you astrometrics) The crew comfort details are lacking for long range exploration, (walls to thin for noisy hobbies.)
And she is not a warship as seen by her onboard stores of munitions. She only kept having such weapons because she kept bartering the one thing she seemed to have a large supply of. Medical supplies. This sounds like a ship intended to patrol inside or just outside the Federation borders and perform as a first response ship and interdictor as needed against smugglers/pirates. (Two things people do not seem to bat an eye about existing even in Federation space.)
As to Defiant and how well she did against the borg cube in First Contact. I would say she did fine as the tactic most likely to be used for this type of gunship would be to organize squadrons of them to pulverize a heavy target like a cube. Sending only one and then saying it wasn't good enough is akin to saying one torpedo should be enough to take out a dozen warships. It isn't how they properly work. (Though I wonder why Defiant never got an EMH?)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
i couldn't have said it better.
like i said, i have watched voyager to the point of nausea the last few months.. (ive had some time on my hands). not once did i ever hear voyager refered to as an exploration vessel. the only time janeway says exploration, is when she references the federation, and what their goal is as she explains the "federations" mission statement
everyone keeps ignoring the fact that time and time again, voyager is referenced as being more of a combat vessel. like i said, janeway said it numerous times. tuvok has said it, chakotay, and paris. these are all fresher in my memory.. there is a scene as someone else stated in here, where paris says to harry something along the lines of voyager is a combat vessel, not designed with comfort in mind. (not the exact quote, but i just heard this recently.. janeway talks about the same thing a few times.. while making log entries, and or discussing their situation with others..
several times during several episodes, they talk about not having the proper facilities to properly examine something, or not having the right recources.
and as i have said, sevens pet project there, was all about creating some of the said missing facilities and recources.
none of that even remotely points at an exploration or science.
fast computers can be just as good for targeting systems, and relaying vital information during combat. the very first thing they talk about when referring to the "faster computers" was the healm response time. the last i checked, your ship didn't need to be super menuverable to properly catalog scientific data.
and yes, they get a smaller ship than the galaxy, but its not like the galaxy needed to be replaced at the time.. there was a whole fleet of ships that were better suited for exploration. the timing just didn't seem right to reinvent the exploration ship.. plus. they had the nova, and the luna class vessels being built about the same time. why build so many different classes for the same purpose.
i agree with the quoted response. voyager was a patrol ship designed to deal with medium level threats within, or just outside of the federations borders.. which is exactly what it did in the first episode. it did what it was designed to do, go into the bad lands, where there is danger from the maquies, the cardassians, and other pirate activity, and do its job.
People are also pointing out that outside of a few ships, there are very few built specifically to fight. Mos Federation ships are explorers first, everything else second. The Intrepid class still fits even if it wasn't built for the same kind of exploration a Galaxy class was. You keep on trying to say it was a combat vessel with little evidence that it was since everything, including canon, disagrees with you.
Not all explorers are built to explore equally. Not all explorers need to have everything a Galaxy class is because not all exploration is the same. It's why the Nova class was said to be built for planetary survey rather than just a generic science vessel, because not all science vessels are made the same. But it could also be used as a scout ship.
EDIT: Also, keep in mind that just because it was designed to be an explorer does not mean that it can't do other jobs. Galaxy class ships are explorers, but they are also likely to do patrol missions, interdiction missions, sending medical supplies, serving as battleship, etc.
im not seeing where your getting it being an exploration vessel out of canon. i really don't.. ive watched every episode up and down. there is more evidence in the entire show against it being a specialized exploration vessel, than there is that it was built more for combat.
weather you like the facts or not, you cant just think what you like, and then start throwing words like canon in to try and debunk others thoughts.. everyone keeps throwing non canon sources at us, and trying to say its fact.. im saying, watch the gd show. it says left and right that the intrepid class (or more specifically voyager) was built as some sort of more combat oriented vessel than your average ship.
it also left and right tells you that they struggled to do anything scientific, and anything exploratory, cause they were not fully equipped to do so.
im not trying to say that the intrepid was built as a stop gap, to end all wars, and be something like the defient. however, as evidence by the show, it was built with combat in mind, before exploration. or it would have gotten all the appropriate facilities, and crew, and they wouldn't refer to it as a combat oriented vessel every other episode.
also, people need to stop thinking of Starfleet as the oll might explorers who never think of offense.. that went out the window half way through tng. as is evidence by the ships we start to see emerge.
sure, im not saying they stopped making exploration ships, but they went on a bender of building ships that were more fighters than explorers, some more silly than others.. like the akiras 12 torp tubes lol.. don't know the reason you would need 12 torp tubes when modern torp tubes can fire multiple in short order. but whatevs..
the fact of the matter is, that Starfleet started designing more for combat. the whole theory behing the titan books (which is soft canon since cbs backs it up, its not true canon as its never on screen, but you get my point). as stated in the first book, the luna class was meant to bring Starfleet back into the business of exploration, and the ship was designed solery to do so. it is said in the book, that the luna line is the first in a long while to get exploration as a first thought, and priority in the build..
so just to clear it up, im not saying that the intrepid was totally inept at being an explorer, it just doesn't seem to have been built with it as its first thought. in game, the ship should have been an escort, if not, a cruiser.. sci is stretching it a little far.. i mean seriously, the ship didn't have a stellar cartography lab lol.. and it barely had some of the other labs..
we have been over this before on the forums, somewhere in the achives is a few threads like this, in those, i believe some of us went through, and got exact quotes from the show that proved (weather you wanted to listen or not) that the intrepid was a ship built for combat. not saying its warship voyager, but it was beafier than most other vessels of its size.
even if you look at it as an explorer with more extensive defenses, and offensive abilities, it still doesn't belong in the sci ship category.. i believe this ship should be in the slot the Prometheus is in. an escort, with more of a sci seating to it.
the Prometheus should have a much more aggressive boff seating, as in the episode it was in, was refered to as the most advanced tactical ship in the fleet. (not saying its bad, i run one on a toon, its awesome, but the seating makes it feel a little less canon.). it would have also been nice to have a ship that had a more conventional Starfleet design (like the intrepid) in the escort mix.
I find the information on there quite amusing:
Intrepid class armament: Phaser arrays, phaser banks, spatial charges and torpedo tubes compatible with photon torpedoes, quantum torpedoes, and tricobalt devices
Prometheus class armament: Phaser arrays, photon torpedo launchers
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That's going off of what was shown on the screen. The Prometheus in its very very short screen time only used beams.
Memory Alpha is reflective of hard canon.
STO is not.
Not sure why that's so amusing.
I throw canon around because, in canon it says it was designed for long range exploration. See here:http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Intrepid_class. If this is wrong, feel free to correct it since that only has canon information. That comes from the show since the shown is the only thing considered canon.
Not all exploration needs to be done with all the facilities a Galaxy class ship has to be considered designed for exploration, that point is completely moot. Just like you can have different ships for different combat roles you can have different ships for different exploration roles.
Funniest part of this is it being an explorer first does not invalidate any thing you said about the ship. The Galaxy class being an explorer does not also mean its not a powerful warship. This is what you seem to not be able to understand. Being beefier for its size doesn't make it designed for combat, it just means its more advanced nth an other ships that size. And likely its combat role is what you described.
Again, the fact that its a science ship in STO is meaningless. And even as a scicne ship in STO its pretty damned good. And its not likely to change no matter how you try to get it to.
Yeah, way back in like my second post I mentioned that the classification in this game is arbitrary and that there will be tons of examples of each ship doing other things outside the classification of this game's narrow scope.
There's a lot of evidence that Voyager was more than a science ship. And the Enterprise-D was more than an exploration ship with classrooms and kids on board.
Which makes for great discussion and debate.
But at the end of this thread, Cryptic is still not changing the Intrepid ship in its game to a 4/3 can equip DHCs and upping its turn rate to 17 and removing sensory analysis, beam target subsystems and not giving it a secondary deflector.
It's staying as a science ship. Like you said. (Only reason I quoted you was to agree with you).
But it is definitely fun reliving all those old episodes of Voyager and re-reading Memory Alpha. Love that site.
When we first see voyager they have only just gotten her ready to go, so is it beyond the relms of possibility she was always supposed to have one (definitely capable of operating one) and that they cut time by not installing a system that wouldn't be needed for hunting marquee?
So is it not possible Intrepid Class has the lab on the specs as standard? Perhaps voyagers was due to be installed on tuesday? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HG_Hx-0ulQ after all the Enterprise B had no tractor beam, medical staff or torpedoes when it left dock
It was hinted that Riker was offered command of Voyager first. (which as tongue in-cheek to one of the first proposals of Voyager, Riker and Troi series)
In any case, Voyager was pretty much an anomaly in regard to the Intrepid class as a whole, and the Intrepid class certainly wasn't designed to be a warship, though like the majority of Federation starship designs, is designed to be able to at least hold up in a fight.
The design of the Intrepid class is meant for long range, but not deep space missions. As in, it was always expected to work within reasonable range to Federation space. Voyager more so, considering its status as the first in its line, with prototype technologies onboard.
As in real life, the designs of most of the starships in the Federation at least tend to fit a concept or a role more than a class. The class system is more a construct for in-game.
The Intrepid class certainly doesn't fit in the Cruiser class, nor does it fit in as an escort, looking at the types of ships that fill the Escort class. That leaves, for better or for worse, Science, despite the fact that the original design of the Intrepid class was none of the above.
The design for the Intrepid fits a role: long range missions within Federation space in a support role (considering its size and the push for speed that its pylon design supposedly was supposed to assist with).
Again, the design is far and away not an Escort design, especially considering that at the time, Escorts such as the Defiant were not even a recognized role: ships were either designed to function self-sufficiently for long periods of time, or simply work within the confines of safe Federation space. The Intrepid certainly doesn't fit the big ambassadorian feel of the Galaxy or its type. Even the Nebula is considered mainly a workhorse type ship, meant to be capable in multiple ways, and not necessarily a Science ship.
Perhaps the biggest problem with the Intrepid design as is in STO comes from the fact that Federation ships simply weren't given Universal BOff slots from the get go. That was a Klingon-only feature at the time. The game, however, has changed a lot, and maybe giving the Intrepid a Universal BOff, even if only for the Fleet version, would make more sense for the kind of ship it really is, now that times have changed in terms of game design. I'm otherwise fine with having it fall within the Science ship "class" simply because class doesn't mean much to me anymore, and doesn't define a ship as much as it used to at launch. The Intrepid, however, wasn't quite as Science oriented as the game would lead you to believe.
People need to realise that just because Starfleet designs their ship for exploration first (usually, Defiant and Prometheus being the known exceptions), that doesn't mean that they are also not designed with a combat role in mind either. And the role described here for combat likely fits that. Which would also fit for a science ship in STO.
Wait, what? The Enterprise or the USS Galaxy or the entire set of Galaxy class starships? The Enterprise spent a lot of time exploring in 7 seasons.
The USS Intrepid would probably have been the first in that line. Just sayin'
No, its not. It never was. I know some people will like to see Voyager as a tactical ship, but it will never happen because its impossible. Voyager was always a science vessel. And also never heard in the shows calling the Voyager "tactical", i cant even imagine it.
Not the ship abilities , or the ship systems in the show were designed for tactical purposes. The Voyager became more tactical when started to mount borg weapons and borg derived systems. But until then, it was a pure science ship.
NOTE: I am not saying that eldarion was saying that we should go by what's on screen, as that's not what I got from this post at all. I'm simply expanding on what was said.
I would say that it's not fair to judge a ship's role based on the ship presented on the show (except for the Defiant--that ship was designed for express purpose as a quick strike warship). One would assume that every other Galaxy class that wasn't called "Enterprise" was doing boring stuff like ferrying supplies and people and providing diplomatic support across Federation space. Its design is somewhere between a space cruise ship and a mobile support/command/aid centre. In all practicality, the Galaxy makes little sense.
However, all Federation ships were designed to at least be able to defend themselves, and for story reasons, Enterprise automatically had to fly around with a big target on its back to keep things interesting. If every ship in the Federation had as much action as the Enterprise did, the Federation would have probably dropped the peaceful exploration stuff ages ago.
Voyager, simply due to its being flung into the Delta quadrant and doing most anything (but not really) to get back home, put itself into a lot of bad situations it had to shoot its way out of. Designed with a bit of everything and a kitchen sink as a prototype, the crew was fortunate they had it instead of most other Fed ships. Of course, that's all part of the story.
Had Voyager's original mission against the Maquis succeeded, they would have just headed back to DS9, docked for a bit, then headed back to the shipyards for some tweaking until it was reliable ship of the line, and gone on to its regular, mostly boring duties.
Again, before Defiant, no Federation ship was designed for the sole purpose of combat. Wanting to reclassify the Intrepid class as some kind of warship doesn't make sense. If the term "tactical" was ever mentioned connected to the Intrepid class, it does not mean as a front-of-line warship, but as a tactical asset of a paramilitary organization: that it has its uses in terms of logistics and some amount of combat. That can be very different from a front line warship. One does not equate the other.
Tom Paris said a lot of things, like that it's impossible to turn while at warp.
Yeah, that always bugged me. Voyager was clearly a prototype "show how much tech you can cram into a ship" design. The design had never been even hinted at before Voyager (the show) was launched, yet they called it Intrepid class with the Voyager name.
Then again, the same thing happened with Enterprise, though I think everyone assumes that's the exception, since the Enterprise name holds special significance amongst Starfleet.
Whatever, it's a show. Naming conventions are often an afterthought for most writers, even in the generally nitpicky science fiction genre.