B.t.w. Isokinetic Cannon F.T.W. Would not mind that addition at all.
No Starfleet didn't design every ship to be a warship post 359. They designed new ships to replace the ones lost at 359 many of which were old. The only dedicated warship to come from it was the Defiant which suffered design problems and was mothballed until DS9. They also swapped to smaller faster ships with a single role, ships like the Intrepid for example instead of a Galaxy class.
The new ships fared a lot better as they were new and likely integrated the Federations latest technology so when they faced the Dominion and the Borg the second time round they did a hell of a lot better.
STO doesn't help though, the Akira for example is actually a heavy cruiser not an escort.
B.t.w. Isokinetic Cannon F.T.W. Would not mind that addition at all.
The "Tacticl after Borg" thing comes up time and again, although I don't think it makes much sense.
Starfleet has and was always in a position to confront the unknown, that's why their tactical capabilities were always up-to-date (and don't forget they were at war with the Klingons and the Romulans, wars Starfleet prevailed through due to superior ship design). After all, when you confront the unknown, it's likely that it wants to kill your face. This is why especially the large Explorers in TNG era, like the Galaxy class, were heavily armed and more than a match for every bad-TRIBBLE warship the Klingons or Romulans fielded. Sporting superior weapons system IS a part of Starfleet's design philosophy.
What the Borg encounter did was a "waking call" to the UFP as in "even the core worlds can be threatened by the unknown" which most likely led to a reorganization of defense protocols and a modernization of the fleet (as in even update the core system "workhorses" and don't use Excelsiors and Mirandas there). But there was no all out militarization or tactical focus. Every ship that would be considered a warship (Defiant and Prometheus) were prototypes that were either mothballed or never reached the state of mass production.
Memory Beta and the like are full of bad TRIBBLE warbattledoomships and tactical commandersupercarriers of death because people think all out war and military jughead nonsense is cool, yet canon material never suggested that Starfleet went any more tactical or military than it always was.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The "Tacticl after Borg" thing comes up time and again, although I don't think it makes much sense.
Starfleet has and was always in a position to confront the unknown, that's why their tactical capabilities were always up-to-date. After all, when you confront the unknown, it's likely that it wants to kill your face. This is why especially the large Explorers in TNG era, like the Galaxy class, were heavily armed and more than a match for every bad-TRIBBLE warship the Klingons or Romulans fielded. Sporting superior weapons system IS a part of Starfleet's design philosophy.
What the Borg encounter did was a "waking call" to the UFP as in "even the core worlds can be threatened by the unknown" which most likely led to a reorganization of defense protocols and a modernization of the fleet (as in even update the core system "workhorses" and don't use Excelsiors and Mirandas there). But there was no all out militarization or tactical focus. Every ship that would be considered a warship (Defiant and Prometheus) were prototypes that were either mothballed or never reached the state of mass production.
Well the Defiant did eventually reach mass production in some form as they showed more than one a couple of times and the original Defiant that the Breen destroyed was replaced far too quickly to have been built from scratch.
Well the Defiant did eventually reach mass production in some form as they showed more than one a couple of times and the original Defiant that the Breen destroyed was replaced far too quickly to have been built from scratch.
You are right, I wante to make an edit to my posting concerning that. They did produce some Defiants probably because such a nimble Frigate could be mass produced quite easily, yet the use of this type of ship is quite limited. A frigate/interceptor to be stationed at outposts and starbases (that's why DS9 got her in the first place) is a sensible design. But people often tend to overexaggerate a Defiant's capabilities. It is a Bird of Prey, after all.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Few tidbits I'll quote from memory as I'm at work and I can't dig around for references.
Voyager was sent after the Maquis because she had sealed warp nacells so the plasma storms wouldn't ignite her plasma trail the way it would most other ships (in a novel they rescued a Cardassian cruiser that wasn't as lucky before getting tossed to the Delta Quadrant).
Voyager had new bio-neural gel pack computer systems designed to accelerate her computer performance, and distribute the processing tasks over a larger network rather than be consolidated solely in her computer core.
Voyager was capable of higher warp speeds than average due to the Intrepid's variable warp geometry granted by her nacell's ability to move.
All of that plus the way Voyager got wrecked so often in the series points me to thinking she's not tactical based. Please note that's MY OPINION based on my perspective. If she really was tactical, she'd look more like the "Warship Voyager" from that episode ('Living Witness' I think it was called, where the doctor's backup module is activated in a holodeck 50 years after Voyager passed by a planet), and be better able to defend herself.
To me, based on Voyager, the Intrepid was a recon/exploration cruiser. She wasn't lightly armed, but she wasn't a gunship either. She could travel a long way and take a good look around while she was at it, but she wasn't a floating lab ship like the Nova class Equinox was.
It was assumed, but never confirmed that the Nova was a newer (post wolf 359) design.
But when considering which vessel the Nova was scheduled to replace (assumption, never confirmed in the series) the Oberth it was still a massive increase in tactical capacity.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Edit: But then again, maybe having infinite Shuttles, and Torpedo,as well as regenerating her hull and not needing a starbase after each Episode made her a Warship.. *shrugs*
Some design specs show the ship having a Spare warpcore ( can't remember if it was seen on screen as i haven't seen all the episodes ) and this seems like a very useful system for exploration
There was a secondary warp core on the MSD, but it was never seen or used on-screen.
It always seemed to me to be a multi rtole vessel, equally at home with science and tactical had class-9 and at least four class-10 photon torpedoes and two tricobalt devices in her torpedo arsenal In addition, the ship also carried spatial charges, that could also be used as subspatial charges to cause subspace disturbance. There were also photon charges and photon bursts. The ship also had gravimetric charges, that could be installed into photon torpedoes, turning them into extremely destructive gravimetric torpedoes
Considering tricobalt devices are banned under the Khitomer Accords, it's pretty questionable why Voyager had them on board in the first place. The best fanwank explanation I've ever read was that they were perhaps carried for non-tactical purposes, such as demolitions. Still pretty weak, though.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, by all appearances, Voyager appeared to be equipped with the latest in Starfleet weapons technology, which is no surprise. I don't think anybody would argue that it was designed to be less well-equipped than its peers, but I still don't see any evidence that it's a "tactical ship."
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
You are right, I wante to make an edit to my posting concerning that. They did produce some Defiants probably because such a nimble Frigate could be mass produced quite easily, yet the use of this type of ship is quite limited. A frigate/interceptor to be stationed at outposts and starbases (that's why DS9 got her in the first place) is a sensible design. But people often tend to overexaggerate a Defiant's capabilities. It is a Bird of Prey, after all.
True enough plus I imagine Starfleet wasn't too concerned with making warships during the Dominion war as they were getting their asses handed to them pretty badly.
The Defiant was portrayed pretty well in the shows though they did show it wasn't all powerful like in the episode Defiant where it has to run to a Galor class for protection at the end or in First Contact when the Ent E saves its behind. People seem to forget that though round here.
My only question to those who bring up First Contact and the fact that the E saved it is this;
How much incoming fire did it receive before the E arrived?
Considering that it was one of the few remaining ships still around (and extremely close to the Cube's destruction which destroyed a Steamrunner and not the abandoned Defiant) from the start of the fight, I would say people underestimate that ship.
Anyways, on to the Intrepid... as STO classifies ships 40 years after Voyager's Return, it falls nicely in to the Science Category.
First Federation ship to test Quantum Slipstream.
First Federation ship to develop Warp 10 drive (albeit, short lived)
Charted a majority of the Delta Quadrant
And a host of other achievements during the series
One could make a guess that all Intrepid Class Starships would have been upgraded or produced with what was built/modified on Voyager.
Last, in reality, no two ships are alike, even when they are the same class. Improvements, adjustments, new construction techniques change and adapt all the time.
Star Trek Battles: For those who want to Play Star Trek Online as it WAS MEANT TO BE!!!
My only question to those who bring up First Contact and the fact that the E saved it is this;
How much incoming fire did it receive before the E arrived?
Considering that it was one of the few remaining ships still around (and extremely close to the Cube's destruction which destroyed a Steamrunner and not the abandoned Defiant) from the start of the fight, I would say people underestimate that ship.
Anyways, on to the Intrepid... as STO classifies ships 40 years after Voyager's Return, it falls nicely in to the Science Category.
First Federation ship to test Quantum Slipstream.
First Federation ship to develop Warp 10 drive (albeit, short lived)
Charted a majority of the Delta Quadrant
And a host of other achievements during the series
One could make a guess that all Intrepid Class Starships would have been upgraded or produced with what was built/modified on Voyager.
Last, in reality, no two ships are alike, even when they are the same class. Improvements, adjustments, new construction techniques change and adapt all the time.
As Riker says its a tough little ship, However in First Contact the Defiant is pretty screwed no power no life support ect until the Ent saves it , if you watch again the Borg stop shooting the Defiant to deal with the bigger threat that is the Ent E
As for the explosion if i had to guess I would say its the ablative armor that stops it getting fried and how it took all those hits to its hull like a champ. (which the other ships like the Steamrunner don't possess)
What people are tying to say though is that it is not a uber powerful ship that should kill everything in one hit and never die because its a hero ship despite what some people in STO may think.
The Intrepid is a standard Starfleet explorer, which means that it can fight but it's not designed to exclusively. It probably does not outgun larger Starfleet ships or ships more designed to fight.
The Defiant is a small, powerful warship for her size. But while she is shown to be more powerful than a Bird of Prey, she is generally not shown to be more powerful than the larger Starfleet ship types. Though the only comparison we have is that, when fighting an upgraded Excelsior, both ships came out pretty damage with the Excelsior being in a bit worse shape.
The only other ship we know of that was specifically designed for tactical assignments was the Prometheus class (which, chances are, could still do exploration missions since the Defiant was able to). Post 359 Starfleet ships are still generally explorers, but they may be more heavily armed than they would be had Starfleet not encountered the Borg.
The Intrepid is a standard Starfleet explorer, which means that it can fight but it's not designed to exclusively. It probably does not outgun larger Starfleet ships or ships more designed to fight.
The Defiant is a small, powerful warship for her size. But while she is shown to be more powerful than a Bird of Prey, she is generally not shown to be more powerful than the larger Starfleet ship types. Though the only comparison we have is that, when fighting an upgraded Excelsior, both ships came out pretty damage with the Excelsior being in a bit worse shape.
The only other ship we know of that was specifically designed for tactical assignments was the Prometheus class (which, chances are, could still do exploration missions since the Defiant was able to). Post 359 Starfleet ships are still generally explorers, but they may be more heavily armed than they would be had Starfleet not encountered the Borg.
Thats the main takeaway, Starfleet built better ships after 359 of all ship roles not just tactical. Plus they upgraded the hell out of their ships. Look at the firepower increase the Ent E and I would assume the other Sovereigns got from First contact to Nemesis.
Been watching a lot of voyager lately. In the episode the thaw Paris says to harry that voyager is a tactical ship and not designed for comfort. I'll get the exact quote when I'm on my PC.
I don't recall ever Voyager ever being called a Tactical ship, it was always a Science orated ship, and was always compered to being a compact Galaxy Class..
All they always said was, it was Fast, and had advance smart systems...also the Ship hardly shown doing much power in the Phaser department compared to the Enterprise D, which actually would move ships when she hit.
Edit: But then again, maybe having infinite Shuttles, and Torpedo,as well as regenerating her hull and not needing a starbase after each Episode made her a Warship.. *shrugs*
if we cant claim it was a tactical oriented ship, than you shure as sh*t cant claim it is a sci based ship lol..
now I consider myself part of the 1% in star trek, as I actually liked voyager the best out of all the series. lol..
just since the turn of the new year, I have watched the whole series twice (don't judge lol).. and I can say without a doubt, not knowing which time stamps on which scene of which episode, that janeway and the other crew members stated several times that (not the actual word tactical) but that voyager was more of a tactical ship at design.
I know just in the first episode, it is said once or twice.. I know several times when janeway is self loathing about their situation and long journey home, that the ship wasn't the best ship to be traveling that distance in, citing once or twice that it was more "tactical". other species always comment on how she is armed, and it is something that sticks out to a lot of races in the delta quadrant.. not every ship carries more than just photon torpedoes (im assuming, like I would say the nova did not have tricobalt torps on board, lol).. it even had high yield photons on board.
janeway always had a certain confidence in the tactical capabilities of her ship, almost like it was meant to be in that role. like I said, Starfleet would not send a non tactical ship into the demilitarized zone to play hide and seek with the maquie and possibly the cardassians.
also, watch the show, they have a distinct lack of science personel on board.. and besides for janeway playing around with temporal mechanics from time to time, they never really handled anything from the scientific side (ie, a spock, or other science specialist). there was a distinct lack of "blue" on board the ship.. and a lot of gold and red..
and not once, honestly, have I ever heard a single cast member refer to the intrepid class as a mini galaxy class.
like I said in my earlier post, one of the things they made clear, was that they did not have all the labs and equipment to do a lot of the studies, most noteably, the astrometrics lab, which, I would assume any ship of "exploration" would be equipped with. ie, the galaxy, and the sovriegn, and probably other ships.
look at how voyager faired, as compared to the nova. the nova is a science vessel, and it was chosen to be abandoned, voyager had 5 times the tactical capability as the nova, and that isn't just because of size, that is because voyager was designed for tactics first. thus, her ability to maneuver better than anything in Starfleet at the time.. why on earth would an exploration vessel need such an advanced maneuvering capability?
and yes, infinite torpedoes, and shuttles was a little silly.
I don't think the Intrepid Class was designed for combat at all. Sure, Voyager could handle herself, but she wasn't a combat orientated vessel. If anything, Voyager (and the Intrepid Class in general) was Deep Space / Long Range Explorer (Memory Alpha confirms this).
It just so happens that she's got a whole bunch of phaser arrays, three/four torpedo launchers (as is standard with most Federation ships anyway) and a secret shuttle bay. It is my belief, quite simply, that most, if not all factions encountered by Voyager (minus maybe the Borg, Undine and Krenim to an extent) are weak.
If a Galaxy Class had been flying that journey, or an Excelsior (maybe?) they'd have had a field day.
Edit: Voyager will always be an exception to the Intrepid Class purpose. Janeway (and crew) had to adapt to survive.
The Intrepid is a standard Starfleet explorer, which means that it can fight but it's not designed to exclusively. It probably does not outgun larger Starfleet ships or ships more designed to fight.
The Defiant is a small, powerful warship for her size. But while she is shown to be more powerful than a Bird of Prey, she is generally not shown to be more powerful than the larger Starfleet ship types. Though the only comparison we have is that, when fighting an upgraded Excelsior, both ships came out pretty damage with the Excelsior being in a bit worse shape.
The only other ship we know of that was specifically designed for tactical assignments was the Prometheus class (which, chances are, could still do exploration missions since the Defiant was able to). Post 359 Starfleet ships are still generally explorers, but they may be more heavily armed than they would be had Starfleet not encountered the Borg.
sure, every ship has sensors and the ability to collect data, but in this case, the intrepid was designed as what im guessing was a patrol craft first. given a new warp geometry to allow her to answer to threats faster than other vessels. its also why she had advanced maneuvering at impulse.
ill concede, that voyager did a lot of exploration, but so didn't the defiant. it doesn't change what role a ship is designed, or outfitted for. exploration was a secondary thought when the intrepid was built.. thus, it should not be a science vessel.
sure, every ship has sensors and the ability to collect data, but in this case, the intrepid was designed as what im guessing was a patrol craft first. given a new warp geometry to allow her to answer to threats faster than other vessels. its also why she had advanced maneuvering at impulse.
ill concede, that voyager did a lot of exploration, but so didn't the defiant. it doesn't change what role a ship is designed, or outfitted for. exploration was a secondary thought when the intrepid was built.. thus, it should not be a science vessel.
Cruisers tend to be bigger ships, and the Intrepid comes across more as a Science Ship than a Destroyer/Escort.
Do you spend your days and nights praying that the developers never stretch beyond "box of donuts + hand = mmmmmmmmmmmmm"?
What?
Anyways, a better way to quote me and try and refute me would be to toss up some examples of a development team completely redoing a basic game function, like classes, to their MMO after it's 4th year anniversary. Or heck, even after it's 1st year anniversary.
I would say Star Wars Galaxies qualifies. But didn't they keep the same classes though? So even they didn't get rid of their class system. But I will concede they are an example of a game revamping some of its most basic and core functions post release.
sure, every ship has sensors and the ability to collect data, but in this case, the intrepid was designed as what im guessing was a patrol craft first. given a new warp geometry to allow her to answer to threats faster than other vessels. its also why she had advanced maneuvering at impulse.
ill concede, that voyager did a lot of exploration, but so didn't the defiant. it doesn't change what role a ship is designed, or outfitted for. exploration was a secondary thought when the intrepid was built.. thus, it should not be a science vessel.
On what kind of ship would you put a person with five advanced degrees in cosmology?
Cruisers tend to be bigger ships, and the Intrepid comes across more as a Science Ship than a Destroyer/Escort.
except that it wasn't outfitted with the standard exploration and science facilities you would see in a science/exploration cruiser..
what does size have to do with anything.. the constitution is considered in canon to be a cruiser. the excelsior, the akira is a cruiser (maybe not in game, but im sure that is what it is classified as in Starfleet). Christ, I bet the sabre is classified as a cruiser..
like I said, I think voyager, and the people onboard were capable as Starfleet officers to get the job done when they needed. but how many times was the holodec used as a facility they did no t have.. 7 of 9 had to build from scratch a lab that was like 10 labs in one.. cause they did not have them...
that points to the ship was not outfitted for exploration, or scientific discovery.. even in the episode where seven is trying to get captain Braxton, and voyager is in space dock still finishing up her final preps to be space worthy, I believe her and the admiral have a discussion that points more to voyager being a combat vessel. (I cant remember for sure, but im pretty sure they do, ill watch it on Netflix today and right or wrong, ill post about it)..
seven even comments a bazillion times on how voyager is a capable ship (referring to the tactical side of her), but that it lacks the facilities she needs.. (which is why they let her build them.. its even stated on more than one occasion that they do not have the facility, or equipment to properly explore, or research something..
even when they open the new lab up, and they bring stellar cartography and astro metrics online (which they did not have prior) it is found that they were not even taking the most efficient way home. that is because they lacked the equipment to properly map, and work through data.. a typical exploration, or science vessel would have had these labs, hands down.. infact, the only ship we ever saw without them prior to voyager, was the defient. making the argument that voyager was built as a combat vessel even stronger..
and reguardless of what you may "think" it was stated several times, that voyager was more of a combat vessel than anything else..
Anyways, a better way to quote me and try and refute me would be to toss up some examples of a development team completely redoing a basic game function, like classes, to their MMO after it's 4th year anniversary. Or heck, even after it's 1st year anniversary.
I would say Star Wars Galaxies qualifies. But didn't they keep the same classes though? So even they didn't get rid of their class system. But I will concede they are an example of a game revamping some of its most basic and core functions post release.
Can you find any others?
Galaxies went from 32 classes to 9 professions. (7 of which were combat professions) There were also auxiliary professions that you could take alongside your primary profession like pilot or beastmaster. Most of these were added much later though apart from pilot.
That was much later on after the change though, it was such a bad rush job that many of the professions didn't even work for some time and the non combat professions (entertainer and trader) were pretty much useless until a couple of years after it was all changed.
Canon Voyager is a tactical ship, that's beyond question.
No its not.
Definitely not. Especially not "beyond question".
1. The Federation AS A RULE did NOT HAVE Tactical ships in the first place, the Defaint (which could not even be called "Warship") and the Prometheus as a result of later, darker times being the only exceptions on screen.
2. ALL Federation ships (outside the two mentioned above) are Science ships first. ALL OF THEM. Every series never get tiered of stating that fact.
Galaxy is canonical a Science ship.
Sovereign is canonical a Science ship.
Constitution is canonical a science ship.
Becasue, no matter how little people like it (and how unological it looks I have to damit) Starfleets is job is exploration - ultimately Science stuff - before anything else. Yes, it doesn't make sense with their military ranks and still heavily enough armed ships to complete with official warships, but Starfleet not being Military is simply canon. It has been preached during tos and early TNG often enough and clearly enough.
So for the "Star Trek online" incarnations:
Tactical ships in STO seemed to be originally the exceptions that actually are build for combat first.
Leaving the rest of the buch being multi fuction vessels, and since the Galxay/Sovereign line making sense for to be the "Cruiser"-Eng ships through simply being bigger it left the Intrepid in that Science ship role it a. had like any ship else b. did fit better then the rest of the categories.
Also I might add that neither the Defiant nor the Galaxy nor the Intrepid were meant to be end game ships, their t5 versions were addet later through player request.
Cryptic originally wanted their own designs only as endgame ships. The canon shps were just low tier fluff.
on page 7 (page 10 in viewer) it states:
"The original mission of Voyager was primarily exploration and research, and it was superbly equipped for both."
probably not on a ship that is not intended for exploration.
And no, the Defiant did not do a lot of exploration. I could remember 3 episodes at most.
yes, janeway had a lot on her resume with science and what not. but maybe she wanted a change.. maybe it was the only command position they offered her. maybe she proved that her ability to command a combat vessel was stronger than her science background.. or maybe she just wanted a change of pace, well never know..
and as far as all of your blue shirts.. 4 of them on that site were medical personel killed in the first episode.. there is nine in total. and there is a distinct lack of blue shirts, compared to all the gold and red.. watch an episode someday, half the time, there isn't even a blue shirt on the bridge.. also, blue shirts can be apart of ops, as we saw in a few episodes.. blue doesn't just mean science.
I served on a guided misile cruiser in the U.S. Navy. even though our ship was meant for one purpose only, we still had a full array of personel, ranging in al fields of expertise. sure, we might have had less of one type of personel than say a ship better suited for a particular task, but we still carried them cause you never know..
time and time again, it is shown that Starfleet gets the tactical edge due to using science, or their better understanding of something.. this would be the reason a "few" science personel are put on board..
like I said. voyager didn't even have the standard science labs on board.. the red and gold shirts vastly outnumbered the blue shirts..
and yes, the defient only explored 3 times to our knowledge, but it just proves that voyager could have been a combat vessel doing the same thing the defient was..
Galaxies went from 32 classes to 9 professions. (7 of which were combat professions) There were also auxiliary professions that you could take alongside your primary profession like pilot or beastmaster. Most of these were added much later though apart from pilot.
That was much later on after the change though, it was such a bad rush job that many of the professions didn't even work for some time and the non combat professions (entertainer and trader) were pretty much useless until a couple of years after it was all changed.
I only played it for the first 90 days, and most of what I've learned about the game came from bitter posters on the other star wars MMO forums. So yeah, I'm not exactly expert. Thanks for clearing that up.
So hey, there's one game that has completely revamped basic game functionality post-launch.
It's fate though leaves one not very inspired does it?
Are there any others? None of the games I've played throughout the years would qualify. They either keep their basic functions but change little things (An example in EQ would be changing the way rampage works, or tweaking aggro management, but never actually redoing how tanks tank) ... or they outright died (City of Heroes, Tabula Rasa, Matrix Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea).
By age alone, STO's pretty darn successful since it's still alive. I just don't know if there's a compelling reason to change basic game functions like ship classification.
on page 7 (page 10 in viewer) it states:
"The original mission of Voyager was primarily exploration and research, and it was superbly equipped for both."
I'd say that is pretty explicit.:)
except it wasn't when it came to what was on screen lol.. explain why they did not have a stellar cartography lab, or atrometrics lab..
please, im dying to hear this..
just like the akira, what the writer thought, and what became canon, are two different things.. (they even changed the front of the akira so it would not look like a carrier for the on screen appearance. lol.. )
micheal dorn talks about what he "wanted" worf to be, and what he "thought " worf was.. and yes they gave him liberties to play with the chacter, but in the end, cbs, and their writers (cause there is never just one writer to a show) portrayed him in a certain way)_.
when we talk about canon. the very definition of the word canon, in respect to how we are using it, is anything seen on screen. as in, it made the cut to be shown to us, on screen.. everything else is considered soft canon, ie, the titan, and the luna class. while cbs said it is canon, to us, this means it is soft canon, as they have not put one on screen yet..
and with the dialogue on the show, the lack of science officers, and the lack of science based facilities, I would gander, that what the writer wanted, and how it worked out are two different things..
I am arguing, based on canon (what we have seen in the episodes) that the intrepid class was built as a combat vessel first, and an explorer second..
I only played it for the first 90 days, and most of what I've learned about the game came from bitter posters on the other star wars MMO forums. So yeah, I'm not exactly expert. Thanks for clearing that up.
So hey, there's one game that has completely revamped basic game functionality post-launch.
It's fate though leaves one not very inspired does it?
Are there any others? None of the games I've played throughout the years would qualify. They either keep their basic functions but change little things (An example in EQ would be changing the way rampage works, or tweaking aggro management, but never actually redoing how tanks tank) ... or they outright died (City of Heroes, Tabula Rasa, Matrix Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea).
By age alone, STO's pretty darn successful since it's still alive. I just don't know if there's a compelling reason to change basic game functions like ship classification.
The Galaxies changes were more problematic than they needed to be as the devs basically admitted that they were given very little time ( a few weeks or so if I remember) to fundamentally change the game from the ground up. It was a knee jerk reaction because of WoWs release.
If it had launched in the state it was in when it was finished (which was really good, classes were well balanced and complemented each other ) then the outcry would of been smaller.
I know a lot about that game as I used to be community representative for one of the professions.
No its not.
Definitely not. Especially not "beyond question".
1. The Federation AS A RULE did NOT HAVE Tactical ships in the first place, the Defaint (which could not even be called "Warship") and the Prometheus as a result of later, darker times being the only exceptions on screen.
2. ALL Federation ships (outside the two mentioned above) are Science ships first. ALL OF THEM. Every series never get tiered of stating that fact.
Galaxy is canonical a Science ship.
Sovereign is canonical a Science ship.
Constitution is canonical a science ship.
Becasue, no matter how little people like it (and how unological it looks I have to damit) Starfleets is job is exploration - ultimately Science stuff - before anything else. Yes, it doesn't make sense with their military ranks and still heavily enough armed ships to complete with official warships, but Starfleet not being Military is simply canon. It has been preached during tos and early TNG often enough and clearly enough.
So for the "Star Trek online" incarnations:
Tactical ships in STO seemed to be originally the exceptions that actually are build for combat first.
Leaving the rest of the buch being multi fuction vessels, and since the Galxay/Sovereign line making sense for to be the "Cruiser"-Eng ships through simply being bigger it left the Intrepid in that Science ship role it a. had like any ship else b. did fit better then the rest of the categories.
Also I might add that neither the Defiant nor the Galaxy nor the Intrepid were meant to be end game ships, their t5 versions were addet later through player request.
Cryptic originally wanted their own designs only as endgame ships. The canon shps were just low tier fluff.
you do realize, that almost everything you stated was thrown out the window in deep space 9.. when sisko introduced the defient, he said that Starfleet started rethinking their ships, and that the defient was the first of many ships under development for tactical consideration.
it has also been said time and time again, in tng, ds9, and even voyager, that after wolf359, Starfleet was designing ships to defend against these threats. that they were woefully unprepared, and while exploration would not be affected, that they were starting to build a defensive fleet.
the intrepid was introduced in a time span that suggests that Starfleet started designing her, and released her just before the dominion war. the time frame suggests that this ship was built as a result of wolf 359..
look at it.. intrepid class, realeased with advanced maneuvering, and double the phasers a normal ship carries. not to mention twin for and "twin" aft.. galaxies didn't even have twin torpedo tubes in the tng era..
the akira is released, with 12 foreward firing torpedo tubes, and just as many in the rear. (don't need those for exploration). and its phaser coverage was good too. not to mention, its arguable it was designed as a carrier (even though perigriens would not fit in her lol).
the sabre, in one of the ds9 fights, you see one launching a quantum torpedo, and firing single canons. by the design, it is obvious this ship is some sort of escort.
the steam runner, its basically a floating weapons pod. it has no star drive section really, so that leads me to think most of its engineerying components are in the saucer, it doesn't seem to have too much room for science equipment..
the defient, that is all.
the Prometheus, that is all.
the Norway is even arguable, its design suggests less of a long range exploration, and more of a shorter ranged patrol.
Starfleet started refitting their ships with more advanced weaponry, and armor.
I would say with out a doubt, their priorities changed..
but not too much, cause the luna class was introduced, stated not to be very tactical, but very science and exploration oriented, Starfleet found a balance, they had a bunch of ships that were explorers, and good at it, but it was time to start thinking about defense.
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No Starfleet didn't design every ship to be a warship post 359. They designed new ships to replace the ones lost at 359 many of which were old. The only dedicated warship to come from it was the Defiant which suffered design problems and was mothballed until DS9. They also swapped to smaller faster ships with a single role, ships like the Intrepid for example instead of a Galaxy class.
The new ships fared a lot better as they were new and likely integrated the Federations latest technology so when they faced the Dominion and the Borg the second time round they did a hell of a lot better.
STO doesn't help though, the Akira for example is actually a heavy cruiser not an escort.
The "Tacticl after Borg" thing comes up time and again, although I don't think it makes much sense.
Starfleet has and was always in a position to confront the unknown, that's why their tactical capabilities were always up-to-date (and don't forget they were at war with the Klingons and the Romulans, wars Starfleet prevailed through due to superior ship design). After all, when you confront the unknown, it's likely that it wants to kill your face. This is why especially the large Explorers in TNG era, like the Galaxy class, were heavily armed and more than a match for every bad-TRIBBLE warship the Klingons or Romulans fielded. Sporting superior weapons system IS a part of Starfleet's design philosophy.
What the Borg encounter did was a "waking call" to the UFP as in "even the core worlds can be threatened by the unknown" which most likely led to a reorganization of defense protocols and a modernization of the fleet (as in even update the core system "workhorses" and don't use Excelsiors and Mirandas there). But there was no all out militarization or tactical focus. Every ship that would be considered a warship (Defiant and Prometheus) were prototypes that were either mothballed or never reached the state of mass production.
Memory Beta and the like are full of bad TRIBBLE warbattledoomships and tactical commandersupercarriers of death because people think all out war and military jughead nonsense is cool, yet canon material never suggested that Starfleet went any more tactical or military than it always was.
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Well the Defiant did eventually reach mass production in some form as they showed more than one a couple of times and the original Defiant that the Breen destroyed was replaced far too quickly to have been built from scratch.
You are right, I wante to make an edit to my posting concerning that. They did produce some Defiants probably because such a nimble Frigate could be mass produced quite easily, yet the use of this type of ship is quite limited. A frigate/interceptor to be stationed at outposts and starbases (that's why DS9 got her in the first place) is a sensible design. But people often tend to overexaggerate a Defiant's capabilities. It is a Bird of Prey, after all.
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Voyager was sent after the Maquis because she had sealed warp nacells so the plasma storms wouldn't ignite her plasma trail the way it would most other ships (in a novel they rescued a Cardassian cruiser that wasn't as lucky before getting tossed to the Delta Quadrant).
Voyager had new bio-neural gel pack computer systems designed to accelerate her computer performance, and distribute the processing tasks over a larger network rather than be consolidated solely in her computer core.
Voyager was capable of higher warp speeds than average due to the Intrepid's variable warp geometry granted by her nacell's ability to move.
All of that plus the way Voyager got wrecked so often in the series points me to thinking she's not tactical based. Please note that's MY OPINION based on my perspective. If she really was tactical, she'd look more like the "Warship Voyager" from that episode ('Living Witness' I think it was called, where the doctor's backup module is activated in a holodeck 50 years after Voyager passed by a planet), and be better able to defend herself.
To me, based on Voyager, the Intrepid was a recon/exploration cruiser. She wasn't lightly armed, but she wasn't a gunship either. She could travel a long way and take a good look around while she was at it, but she wasn't a floating lab ship like the Nova class Equinox was.
That's my $0.02 anyway.
It was assumed, but never confirmed that the Nova was a newer (post wolf 359) design.
But when considering which vessel the Nova was scheduled to replace (assumption, never confirmed in the series) the Oberth it was still a massive increase in tactical capacity.
True dat.
There was a secondary warp core on the MSD, but it was never seen or used on-screen.
Considering tricobalt devices are banned under the Khitomer Accords, it's pretty questionable why Voyager had them on board in the first place. The best fanwank explanation I've ever read was that they were perhaps carried for non-tactical purposes, such as demolitions. Still pretty weak, though.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, by all appearances, Voyager appeared to be equipped with the latest in Starfleet weapons technology, which is no surprise. I don't think anybody would argue that it was designed to be less well-equipped than its peers, but I still don't see any evidence that it's a "tactical ship."
True enough plus I imagine Starfleet wasn't too concerned with making warships during the Dominion war as they were getting their asses handed to them pretty badly.
The Defiant was portrayed pretty well in the shows though they did show it wasn't all powerful like in the episode Defiant where it has to run to a Galor class for protection at the end or in First Contact when the Ent E saves its behind. People seem to forget that though round here.
How much incoming fire did it receive before the E arrived?
Considering that it was one of the few remaining ships still around (and extremely close to the Cube's destruction which destroyed a Steamrunner and not the abandoned Defiant) from the start of the fight, I would say people underestimate that ship.
Anyways, on to the Intrepid... as STO classifies ships 40 years after Voyager's Return, it falls nicely in to the Science Category.
First Federation ship to test Quantum Slipstream.
First Federation ship to develop Warp 10 drive (albeit, short lived)
Charted a majority of the Delta Quadrant
And a host of other achievements during the series
One could make a guess that all Intrepid Class Starships would have been upgraded or produced with what was built/modified on Voyager.
Last, in reality, no two ships are alike, even when they are the same class. Improvements, adjustments, new construction techniques change and adapt all the time.
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Do you spend your days and nights praying that the developers never stretch beyond "box of donuts + hand = mmmmmmmmmmmmm"?
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As Riker says its a tough little ship, However in First Contact the Defiant is pretty screwed no power no life support ect until the Ent saves it , if you watch again the Borg stop shooting the Defiant to deal with the bigger threat that is the Ent E
As for the explosion if i had to guess I would say its the ablative armor that stops it getting fried and how it took all those hits to its hull like a champ. (which the other ships like the Steamrunner don't possess)
What people are tying to say though is that it is not a uber powerful ship that should kill everything in one hit and never die because its a hero ship despite what some people in STO may think.
The Defiant is a small, powerful warship for her size. But while she is shown to be more powerful than a Bird of Prey, she is generally not shown to be more powerful than the larger Starfleet ship types. Though the only comparison we have is that, when fighting an upgraded Excelsior, both ships came out pretty damage with the Excelsior being in a bit worse shape.
The only other ship we know of that was specifically designed for tactical assignments was the Prometheus class (which, chances are, could still do exploration missions since the Defiant was able to). Post 359 Starfleet ships are still generally explorers, but they may be more heavily armed than they would be had Starfleet not encountered the Borg.
Thats the main takeaway, Starfleet built better ships after 359 of all ship roles not just tactical. Plus they upgraded the hell out of their ships. Look at the firepower increase the Ent E and I would assume the other Sovereigns got from First contact to Nemesis.
if we cant claim it was a tactical oriented ship, than you shure as sh*t cant claim it is a sci based ship lol..
now I consider myself part of the 1% in star trek, as I actually liked voyager the best out of all the series. lol..
just since the turn of the new year, I have watched the whole series twice (don't judge lol).. and I can say without a doubt, not knowing which time stamps on which scene of which episode, that janeway and the other crew members stated several times that (not the actual word tactical) but that voyager was more of a tactical ship at design.
I know just in the first episode, it is said once or twice.. I know several times when janeway is self loathing about their situation and long journey home, that the ship wasn't the best ship to be traveling that distance in, citing once or twice that it was more "tactical". other species always comment on how she is armed, and it is something that sticks out to a lot of races in the delta quadrant.. not every ship carries more than just photon torpedoes (im assuming, like I would say the nova did not have tricobalt torps on board, lol).. it even had high yield photons on board.
janeway always had a certain confidence in the tactical capabilities of her ship, almost like it was meant to be in that role. like I said, Starfleet would not send a non tactical ship into the demilitarized zone to play hide and seek with the maquie and possibly the cardassians.
also, watch the show, they have a distinct lack of science personel on board.. and besides for janeway playing around with temporal mechanics from time to time, they never really handled anything from the scientific side (ie, a spock, or other science specialist). there was a distinct lack of "blue" on board the ship.. and a lot of gold and red..
and not once, honestly, have I ever heard a single cast member refer to the intrepid class as a mini galaxy class.
like I said in my earlier post, one of the things they made clear, was that they did not have all the labs and equipment to do a lot of the studies, most noteably, the astrometrics lab, which, I would assume any ship of "exploration" would be equipped with. ie, the galaxy, and the sovriegn, and probably other ships.
look at how voyager faired, as compared to the nova. the nova is a science vessel, and it was chosen to be abandoned, voyager had 5 times the tactical capability as the nova, and that isn't just because of size, that is because voyager was designed for tactics first. thus, her ability to maneuver better than anything in Starfleet at the time.. why on earth would an exploration vessel need such an advanced maneuvering capability?
and yes, infinite torpedoes, and shuttles was a little silly.
It just so happens that she's got a whole bunch of phaser arrays, three/four torpedo launchers (as is standard with most Federation ships anyway) and a secret shuttle bay. It is my belief, quite simply, that most, if not all factions encountered by Voyager (minus maybe the Borg, Undine and Krenim to an extent) are weak.
If a Galaxy Class had been flying that journey, or an Excelsior (maybe?) they'd have had a field day.
Edit: Voyager will always be an exception to the Intrepid Class purpose. Janeway (and crew) had to adapt to survive.
sure, every ship has sensors and the ability to collect data, but in this case, the intrepid was designed as what im guessing was a patrol craft first. given a new warp geometry to allow her to answer to threats faster than other vessels. its also why she had advanced maneuvering at impulse.
ill concede, that voyager did a lot of exploration, but so didn't the defiant. it doesn't change what role a ship is designed, or outfitted for. exploration was a secondary thought when the intrepid was built.. thus, it should not be a science vessel.
What?
Anyways, a better way to quote me and try and refute me would be to toss up some examples of a development team completely redoing a basic game function, like classes, to their MMO after it's 4th year anniversary. Or heck, even after it's 1st year anniversary.
I would say Star Wars Galaxies qualifies. But didn't they keep the same classes though? So even they didn't get rid of their class system. But I will concede they are an example of a game revamping some of its most basic and core functions post release.
Can you find any others?
On what kind of ship would you put a person with five advanced degrees in cosmology?
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cosmologist
Or a xenobiologist?
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Samantha_Wildman
or all those blueshirts we see on the show that were clearly not medical?
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Unnamed_USS_Voyager_personnel
probably not on a ship that is not intended for exploration.
And no, the Defiant did not do a lot of exploration. I could remember 3 episodes at most.
except that it wasn't outfitted with the standard exploration and science facilities you would see in a science/exploration cruiser..
what does size have to do with anything.. the constitution is considered in canon to be a cruiser. the excelsior, the akira is a cruiser (maybe not in game, but im sure that is what it is classified as in Starfleet). Christ, I bet the sabre is classified as a cruiser..
like I said, I think voyager, and the people onboard were capable as Starfleet officers to get the job done when they needed. but how many times was the holodec used as a facility they did no t have.. 7 of 9 had to build from scratch a lab that was like 10 labs in one.. cause they did not have them...
that points to the ship was not outfitted for exploration, or scientific discovery.. even in the episode where seven is trying to get captain Braxton, and voyager is in space dock still finishing up her final preps to be space worthy, I believe her and the admiral have a discussion that points more to voyager being a combat vessel. (I cant remember for sure, but im pretty sure they do, ill watch it on Netflix today and right or wrong, ill post about it)..
seven even comments a bazillion times on how voyager is a capable ship (referring to the tactical side of her), but that it lacks the facilities she needs.. (which is why they let her build them.. its even stated on more than one occasion that they do not have the facility, or equipment to properly explore, or research something..
even when they open the new lab up, and they bring stellar cartography and astro metrics online (which they did not have prior) it is found that they were not even taking the most efficient way home. that is because they lacked the equipment to properly map, and work through data.. a typical exploration, or science vessel would have had these labs, hands down.. infact, the only ship we ever saw without them prior to voyager, was the defient. making the argument that voyager was built as a combat vessel even stronger..
and reguardless of what you may "think" it was stated several times, that voyager was more of a combat vessel than anything else..
Galaxies went from 32 classes to 9 professions. (7 of which were combat professions) There were also auxiliary professions that you could take alongside your primary profession like pilot or beastmaster. Most of these were added much later though apart from pilot.
That was much later on after the change though, it was such a bad rush job that many of the professions didn't even work for some time and the non combat professions (entertainer and trader) were pretty much useless until a couple of years after it was all changed.
No its not.
Definitely not. Especially not "beyond question".
1. The Federation AS A RULE did NOT HAVE Tactical ships in the first place, the Defaint (which could not even be called "Warship") and the Prometheus as a result of later, darker times being the only exceptions on screen.
2. ALL Federation ships (outside the two mentioned above) are Science ships first. ALL OF THEM. Every series never get tiered of stating that fact.
Galaxy is canonical a Science ship.
Sovereign is canonical a Science ship.
Constitution is canonical a science ship.
Becasue, no matter how little people like it (and how unological it looks I have to damit) Starfleets is job is exploration - ultimately Science stuff - before anything else. Yes, it doesn't make sense with their military ranks and still heavily enough armed ships to complete with official warships, but Starfleet not being Military is simply canon. It has been preached during tos and early TNG often enough and clearly enough.
So for the "Star Trek online" incarnations:
Tactical ships in STO seemed to be originally the exceptions that actually are build for combat first.
Leaving the rest of the buch being multi fuction vessels, and since the Galxay/Sovereign line making sense for to be the "Cruiser"-Eng ships through simply being bigger it left the Intrepid in that Science ship role it a. had like any ship else b. did fit better then the rest of the categories.
Also I might add that neither the Defiant nor the Galaxy nor the Intrepid were meant to be end game ships, their t5 versions were addet later through player request.
Cryptic originally wanted their own designs only as endgame ships. The canon shps were just low tier fluff.
http://misc.axiom.ky/AR%20Stuff/Akira%20Files/Akira%201.0%20Backup/Akira%201.0%20Backup/Star%20Trek%20Voyager%20Technical%20Manual.pdf
on page 7 (page 10 in viewer) it states:
"The original mission of Voyager was primarily exploration and research, and it was superbly equipped for both."
I'd say that is pretty explicit.:)
yes, janeway had a lot on her resume with science and what not. but maybe she wanted a change.. maybe it was the only command position they offered her. maybe she proved that her ability to command a combat vessel was stronger than her science background.. or maybe she just wanted a change of pace, well never know..
and as far as all of your blue shirts.. 4 of them on that site were medical personel killed in the first episode.. there is nine in total. and there is a distinct lack of blue shirts, compared to all the gold and red.. watch an episode someday, half the time, there isn't even a blue shirt on the bridge.. also, blue shirts can be apart of ops, as we saw in a few episodes.. blue doesn't just mean science.
I served on a guided misile cruiser in the U.S. Navy. even though our ship was meant for one purpose only, we still had a full array of personel, ranging in al fields of expertise. sure, we might have had less of one type of personel than say a ship better suited for a particular task, but we still carried them cause you never know..
time and time again, it is shown that Starfleet gets the tactical edge due to using science, or their better understanding of something.. this would be the reason a "few" science personel are put on board..
like I said. voyager didn't even have the standard science labs on board.. the red and gold shirts vastly outnumbered the blue shirts..
and yes, the defient only explored 3 times to our knowledge, but it just proves that voyager could have been a combat vessel doing the same thing the defient was..
I only played it for the first 90 days, and most of what I've learned about the game came from bitter posters on the other star wars MMO forums. So yeah, I'm not exactly expert. Thanks for clearing that up.
So hey, there's one game that has completely revamped basic game functionality post-launch.
It's fate though leaves one not very inspired does it?
Are there any others? None of the games I've played throughout the years would qualify. They either keep their basic functions but change little things (An example in EQ would be changing the way rampage works, or tweaking aggro management, but never actually redoing how tanks tank) ... or they outright died (City of Heroes, Tabula Rasa, Matrix Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea).
By age alone, STO's pretty darn successful since it's still alive. I just don't know if there's a compelling reason to change basic game functions like ship classification.
except it wasn't when it came to what was on screen lol.. explain why they did not have a stellar cartography lab, or atrometrics lab..
please, im dying to hear this..
just like the akira, what the writer thought, and what became canon, are two different things.. (they even changed the front of the akira so it would not look like a carrier for the on screen appearance. lol.. )
micheal dorn talks about what he "wanted" worf to be, and what he "thought " worf was.. and yes they gave him liberties to play with the chacter, but in the end, cbs, and their writers (cause there is never just one writer to a show) portrayed him in a certain way)_.
when we talk about canon. the very definition of the word canon, in respect to how we are using it, is anything seen on screen. as in, it made the cut to be shown to us, on screen.. everything else is considered soft canon, ie, the titan, and the luna class. while cbs said it is canon, to us, this means it is soft canon, as they have not put one on screen yet..
and with the dialogue on the show, the lack of science officers, and the lack of science based facilities, I would gander, that what the writer wanted, and how it worked out are two different things..
I am arguing, based on canon (what we have seen in the episodes) that the intrepid class was built as a combat vessel first, and an explorer second..
The Galaxies changes were more problematic than they needed to be as the devs basically admitted that they were given very little time ( a few weeks or so if I remember) to fundamentally change the game from the ground up. It was a knee jerk reaction because of WoWs release.
If it had launched in the state it was in when it was finished (which was really good, classes were well balanced and complemented each other ) then the outcry would of been smaller.
I know a lot about that game as I used to be community representative for one of the professions.
you do realize, that almost everything you stated was thrown out the window in deep space 9.. when sisko introduced the defient, he said that Starfleet started rethinking their ships, and that the defient was the first of many ships under development for tactical consideration.
it has also been said time and time again, in tng, ds9, and even voyager, that after wolf359, Starfleet was designing ships to defend against these threats. that they were woefully unprepared, and while exploration would not be affected, that they were starting to build a defensive fleet.
the intrepid was introduced in a time span that suggests that Starfleet started designing her, and released her just before the dominion war. the time frame suggests that this ship was built as a result of wolf 359..
look at it.. intrepid class, realeased with advanced maneuvering, and double the phasers a normal ship carries. not to mention twin for and "twin" aft.. galaxies didn't even have twin torpedo tubes in the tng era..
the akira is released, with 12 foreward firing torpedo tubes, and just as many in the rear. (don't need those for exploration). and its phaser coverage was good too. not to mention, its arguable it was designed as a carrier (even though perigriens would not fit in her lol).
the sabre, in one of the ds9 fights, you see one launching a quantum torpedo, and firing single canons. by the design, it is obvious this ship is some sort of escort.
the steam runner, its basically a floating weapons pod. it has no star drive section really, so that leads me to think most of its engineerying components are in the saucer, it doesn't seem to have too much room for science equipment..
the defient, that is all.
the Prometheus, that is all.
the Norway is even arguable, its design suggests less of a long range exploration, and more of a shorter ranged patrol.
Starfleet started refitting their ships with more advanced weaponry, and armor.
I would say with out a doubt, their priorities changed..
but not too much, cause the luna class was introduced, stated not to be very tactical, but very science and exploration oriented, Starfleet found a balance, they had a bunch of ships that were explorers, and good at it, but it was time to start thinking about defense.
the nova..
the sovereign
etc.