Absolutely. Candy striped faeries are possible in this game.
Interesting. At what point is it impossible for a founded nation with hostiles around them and their previous government gunning for them, to build shipyards?
How is it impossible that to show they mean what they say that they will christen a flagship to show themselves as a true sovereign power?
If it cannot be done at all then there are nations on earth that must have candy striped faeries as well.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Actually, they do. I think you have a misunderstanding of what the term "flag" means. It's not a person, and it's not a rank grade. A flag is just the location of where the guy in charge happens to be. Let's go back in time to the height of Rome's power in the Mediterranean. Flags then were known as "standards". Every legion had one. When the legion deployed on the battlefield. The army commander, usually watching from a point of high ground, could instantly tell where his subcommanders were, and what they were doing. If the standard ever hit the ground, it meant the unit was no longer viable, as the commander, and his standardbearer, had been killed. If this happened, the next guy in charge was supposed to recover the standard, and give the legion a rally point to defend from until further orders were received. Once people began building ships, and fighting at sea, they adopted the same practice. Whatever vessel the fleet commander happened to be on, was referred to as the flagship. If the fleet commander's ship became compromised, he would transfer his flag to another ship, and assume command from there.
Fast forward to the 24th century. Sisko commanded the fleet that retook DS9. He did this from the bridge of the Defiant, where his "flag" was. Ergo the Defiant was his flagship. See? The Enterprise is referred to as the "Flagship of the Federation", because whenever she is placed into a fleet with other vessels, either her captain, or one of his superiors, commands the fleet from the Enterprise. Exactly this happened in TNG Redemption II, when Picard made Data captain of the Sutherland. It happened again in First Contact, when Picard took charge of the fleet fighting the Borg cube.
So, to sum things up, a "flag officer" is simply the guy in charge of the whole fleet, and a "flag ship" is simply the fixed point in time, and space that he happens to be located on, if he's aboard a ship.
Interesting and well thought.
I am curious however how you have the flagship of a nation.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Can you think of one example, here on Earth, where refugees fleeing a civil war, found their own nation from scratch, and become a superpower? I can't think of one.
Hmm, oppressed colonists. Fight off the armed forces of their parent nation and found themselves a new country. Creating a new capitol in a city that did not exist prior. Building that country up. Fighting a second war with the parent country then growing as an upstart country to a super power that eventually came to the defense of the original parent country.
Ring any bells?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I'm not talking about colonials, with an absentee landlord. I'm talking about refugees. Someone that has fled their country of origin, with nothing save what they could carry. Cases like Uganda, or the Sudan, or Bosnia.
everyone has to start somewhere. I bet 300 years ago Brittan didnt think we would become a superpower. In 300 years who is to say what will happen. But he DOES have a point. Besides. The romulans only lost I bit more than i system. the thing that makes it seem worst in the fact that the government was already falling apart when that happened.
They could be. It sounds like you don't have a clear understanding of the meaning of a "flagship". It's not a class of ship. It's a ship, could be any ship, Vesta, Kumari, even a Miranda, that the fleet commander issues orders from. A shuttle could even be a flagship, if that's all that's available.
If you read some previous pages of this thread you'd realize I already posted that this is the case: where the fleet or squadron commander is located defines which ship is the flagship.
A very good historic example from WW2 was the HMS Belfast, a light (as in 6 inch guns) cruiser which was the flagship of a cruiser squadron that also contained the HMS Norfolk, a heavy (as in 8 in guns) cruiser.
So technically it was not even the most heavily armed ship in the squadron.
My point was that it sounded like you meant to say that only 3-pack ships sould be considered flagship candidates. Otherwise your comment
Problem was Romulan players cried "no fair, we should have a 3 pack, too." Thus the Scimitar was born.
makes very little sense to me.
Besides I thought the Scimitar was added because people cried foul since there was no Scimitar...3 days after release of LoR as this thread titled "No Scimitar Yet?" from May 24th shows:
I still dont see any justification or infact need for a dedicated flagship, as myself and several others have said, its never a specific type of shipe, just the ship that carries the fleet commander.
Jorhana Kreig: KDF, Tal'is: Romulan Fed, Shona'a: Romulan KDF, Johan Paul Kreig: Fed
Salient points. However, we could go in circles on the points in red, since there is alot of room for supposition on both ends. You're supposing that the prideful Romulans wouldn't copy a Reman ship, but these aren't the same Roms from the shows. In that vein I could also continue to suppose that the original Scimitar couldn't have been built without Romulan engineering, evidenced by the fact that any Reman ships we see only appear after the Scimitar, and that the majority of Obisek's fleet are Mogais, Tvaros, Dhelans, etc.
Oh, and just to jump in on the colonial talk....the real problem is that the timescale is a few years at most? With the largest Remnant of the RSE fighting them all the way? Having the RR this rich and at the same time needing both the KDF and Feds is odd to say the least.
I like the Lleiset as a flagship, it makes sense. Even with other ships dropping it's still the most powerful ship class available. And it is logical in the story. There's no way that the Romulan equivalent of the Advanced Starship Design Bureau is up to speed yet. Resources, minds, they just can't get back up to speed with Starfleet and the Klingons that quickly. But if they base their designs off of the already extremely successful Scimitar then they can field an equally (or several equally) powerful ship designs right off the bat, hence the Falchion and Tulwar. The Haakona is nice, but it's not the Scimitar's equal.
My fellow Romulans I implore you not to let our pride overwhelm our pragmatism. If a Reman designed ship allows me to win, I'm fine with that. Not that I'm entirely convinced that they did it alone. Do remember that we used Klingon designed ships within living memory.
If the Republic fields an even more advanced flagship on a later date then that is fine. In the meantime, we all know that the Bortasqu' and the Odyssey...aren't quite up to our standards are they?
On a completely unrelated note, will we have the Lleiset intervening to assist us in Tau Dewa missions like with the Odyssey and the Bortas anytime soon?
As for the definition of a flagship as used in the Star Trek universe it also stands as a prestige symbol. Like the Japanese Battleship Yamato albeit actually functional as a warship. Picard and others often referred to the Enterprise as the Federation Flagship though he had the clout, he wasn't an Admiral or a fleet commander, and the same can be said of Shon, Koren, and Tiaru Jarok. It is a symbol of strength and capability that says, "Look upon our works and be awed for we can build and field this magnificent ship".
everyone has to start somewhere. I bet 300 years ago Brittan didnt think we would become a superpower. In 300 years who is to say what will happen. But he DOES have a point. Besides. The romulans only lost I bit more than i system. the thing that makes it seem worst in the fact that the government was already falling apart when that happened.
But that one system is important. Depending on which supplemental's figures you go by, I'll use Star Charts, Romulus lost the vast majority of the 16 billion Romulans living on Romulus including the Senate. Romulus was the capitol of everything center of their politics, identity, and economics. Look at Madran's hard labor scam in the Hfihar system. Once Romulus was gone everything fell apart. It's not the equivalent of, to use an America-centric example, Washington DC being nuked, it's the equivalent of the entire East Coast from seashore to Appalachia being nuked and falling into the Ocean before any of the government can get out. It's a complete disaster that destroys everything people, identity, landmarks, history, government, economy, and prestige.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
There is nothing to say that you have to be a admiral to be a flag officer, you just have to be in command of a fleet, Sisko wasnt an admiral, yet he was a flag officer and the Defiant was his flagship.
Jorhana Kreig: KDF, Tal'is: Romulan Fed, Shona'a: Romulan KDF, Johan Paul Kreig: Fed
I like the Lleiset as a flagship, it makes sense. Even with other ships dropping it's still the most powerful ship class available. And it is logical in the story. There's no way that the Romulan equivalent of the Advanced Starship Design Bureau is up to speed yet. Resources, minds, they just can't get back up to speed with Starfleet and the Klingons that quickly. But if they base their designs off of the already extremely successful Scimitar then they can field an equally (or several equally) powerful ship designs right off the bat, hence the Falchion and Tulwar. The Haakona is nice, but it's not the Scimitar's equal.
not true. It has been said, by the "Scimitar for flag" side for the debate that the romulans DID make the Scimitar copies and this was sourced. Me being on the opposite side of the debate couldnt even ignore that. If the romualan, after EVERYTHING that has happened, can still make the BIGGEST ship in game, they could of made their own pure romulan designed flagship the ONLY reason why they didnt is because the story was written the way it was using the biggest baddest ship the romulans had at the time. Those of us who dont want to except this only want something which looks more ROMULAN as a flagship and there is NO in story reason why a more Romulan ship cannot be made. Considering the romulans NEED more ships, i dont see what the issue is...
My fellow Romulans I implore you not to let our pride overwhelm our pragmatism. If a Reman designed ship allows me to win, I'm fine with that. Not that I'm entirely convinced that they did it alone. Do remember that we used Klingon designed ships within living memory.
We as romulans have NEVER needed to take the handouts of others! you dare ask us to discard our pride! Where is the honor in fighting with the sword of another when we are able to forge our own?
If the Republic fields an even more advanced flagship on a later date then that is fine. In the meantime, we all know that the Bortasqu' and the Odyssey...aren't quite up to our standards are they?
On a completely unrelated note, will we have the Lleiset intervening to assist us in Tau Dewa missions like with the Odyssey and the Bortas anytime soon?
As for the definition of a flagship as used in the Star Trek universe it also stands as a prestige symbol. Like the Japanese Battleship Yamato albeit actually functional as a warship. Picard and others often referred to the Enterprise as the Federation Flagship though he had the clout, he wasn't an Admiral or a fleet commander, and the same can be said of Shon, Koren, and Tiaru Jarok. It is a symbol of strength and capability that says, "Look upon our works and be awed for we can build and field this magnificent ship".
Except it is, the very least a romulan ship heavily based and copyed from a Reman design. It says, "look upon our works and be awed for we can COPY and field this magnificent ship.......that we copied from our slaves....who built a more powerful ship than we did.....so we copied it...we dont biuld our own, we xerox our ships...
But that one system is important. Depending on which supplemental's figures you go by, I'll use Star Charts, Romulus lost the vast majority of the 16 billion Romulans living on Romulus including the Senate. Romulus was the capitol of everything center of their politics, identity, and economics. Look at Madran's hard labor scam in the Hfihar system. Once Romulus was gone everything fell apart. It's not the equivalent of, to use an America-centric example, Washington DC being nuked, it's the equivalent of the entire East Coast from seashore to Appalachia being nuked and falling into the Ocean before any of the government can get out. It's a complete disaster that destroys everything people, identity, landmarks, history, government, economy, and prestige.
But even in your example, if we lost the entire east coast, the rest of the country would come together and more forward, it would be a blow but it wouldnt cripple us like it did the romulans. It is my belief that the destruction of romulas wasnt what truly hurt our people, but the breakdoown of government, thanks to Shinzon.
There is nothing to say that you have to be a admiral to be a flag officer, you just have to be in command of a fleet, Sisko wasnt an admiral, yet he was a flag officer and the Defiant was his flagship.
Yes the defiant WAS a flagship. i have sourced this fact myself. I still think the Ar'kala/Ar'kif should be the flagship.
He only has a point if you except an example that doesn't represent the parameters of the argument.
Except that no matter what example I do bring to the table you will simply say it does not apply as they are not the Romulans.
But just to play along.
Virinat was a what? A colony. So we could stretch and put a check mark there. (And I admit stretch if you require 100% equal requirements)
But instead how about we go back further in history. The glorious Roman empire/republic. Eventually tears itself apart through infighting. (I have had instructors quarrel as to exact methods of demise.) Each of it's outlying territories throws off the mantle of the Roman rule and founds new countries that grew to be nations in their own time.
France, Spain, Germany, England.
Fairly certain if we look back before the Romans you will see the same pattern again.
Large nation fails to keep itself in check and dissolves into smaller different countries that will eventually grow into powers of their time.
So again why is the Romulan Republic so far fetched?
Edit to Add: Oh and foreign powers do not always stay out of civil wars. In the revolution, France chose to send modest support to the colonies just to spite England.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I still dont see any justification or infact need for a dedicated flagship, as myself and several others have said, its never a specific type of shipe, just the ship that carries the fleet commander.
Ok, i will bite.
And then the scimitar is flagship because.........
...why again? It surely is not fast, it canted get out of a fight to save its life....(at least not with my build.) I dont know how many times i have have to fight my way out of situations.
Well feiqa, that's fine, but the RR is still a nascent nation. The story is contradictory at the moment, as I said before because here you have a nation that needs two others to survive, yet somehow has major operations under way (building dreadnoughts, commanding dyson joint operations, opening iconian gateways).
By that yardstick the Cardassians should be ruling the alpha quadrant since they:
a) only got their homeworld shot up.
b) still retain all their planets under one banner
RR on the other hand:
a) got their homeworld completely eradicated
b) went through civil war and still is in civil war
c) under attack from elachi
d) just started rebuilding a capital basically
e) im not entirely sure on this one, but is this all still 2409? What's the time frame for getting Virinat blown up, joining D'Tan, finding New Romulus, dropping a city, finishing the gateway? What the hell the Cardassians been doing all this time, if the Romulans have had, say a few years to do this?
The only way to really fix these gaping plotholes is:
a) Reduce the Romulans' power
b) Make them their own faction
I suspect Cryptic didn't have the time/manpower to do the latter in time for LOR so we got our current system, and I see a possible retcon in the future.
That is because it was a long and complex process that taken centuries, it did not just "collapsed" as it split into two parts before the Western Empire collapsed and this is not even a simplified version of history, this is a footnote.
This is a very, very, very gross simplification as Germany is actual a recent development and until Napoleon broken it there was the Holy Roman Empire that itself was born from the Carolingian Empire.
Now Spain was born from the joining of most (not all) of the Iberan Kingdoms (I would put Christian but at that time, they were ALL Christian) that were born from the Reconquista, France ... I already mentioned the Carolingian Empire but I just going to mention that France as a nation comes from the end of the 100 Years War and Joan D'Arc and that on itself is a complex subject.
I avoid England since not really that much aware and as I can tell they were kinda part of the Roman Empire by territory but linguistic and cultural they arent much related ...
Simply you cannot just go from Roman Empire->Spain because that is not only a gross simplification but also have HUGE omissions of historical and cultural events, one just doesnt "removed" the Reconquista from history, expecially Iberan history since that is were Spain and Portugal actual roots as NATIONS come from.
Thank you. That is more in five paragraphs than I got in four years of highschool.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Well feiqa, that's fine, but the RR is still a nascent nation. The story is contradictory at the moment, as I said before because here you have a nation that needs two others to survive, yet somehow has major operations under way (building dreadnoughts, commanding dyson joint operations, opening iconian gateways).
By that yardstick the Cardassians should be ruling the alpha quadrant since they:
a) only got their homeworld shot up.
b) still retain all their planets under one banner
RR on the other hand:
a) got their homeworld completely eradicated
b) went through civil war and still is in civil war
c) under attack from elachi
d) just started rebuilding a capital basically
e) im not entirely sure on this one, but is this all still 2409? What's the time frame for getting Virinat blown up, joining D'Tan, finding New Romulus, dropping a city, finishing the gateway? What the hell the Cardassians been doing all this time, if the Romulans have had, say a few years to do this?
The only way to really fix these gaping plotholes is:
a) Reduce the Romulans' power
b) Make them their own faction
I suspect Cryptic didn't have the time/manpower to do the latter in time for LOR so we got our current system, and I see a possible retcon in the future.
Let me see. I know that they put the invasion of Virinat two weeks before the borg invasion of Vega Colony. And this was at the beginning of 2409. After that they don't make any notations of date that I am recalling. I think we are to assume that all content happens in less than a year. Some of it I can accept based on replicator technology and the insertion of materials from two major powers.
The biggest boost I still say comes from Obisek joining the Republic and brining the resources of the vault into play.
To me the question is not how the Romulan Republic has the resources. But why were those resources abandoned in the first place?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Let me see. I know that they put the invasion of Virinat two weeks before the borg invasion of Vega Colony. And this was at the beginning of 2409. After that they don't make any notations of date that I am recalling. I think we are to assume that all content happens in less than a year. Some of it I can accept based on replicator technology and the insertion of materials from two major powers.
The biggest boost I still say comes from Obisek joining the Republic and brining the resources of the vault into play.
To me the question is not how the Romulan Republic has the resources. But why were those resources abandoned in the first place?
That is neither here nor there. you are asking about the "why's" and hows, without thinking about the "facts:"
The romulans have had all these resources and felt they did not need them to run their empire.
The destruction of romulans did not hinder the romulans as much as others seem to believe.
If the romulans can do all they have done in a year or less time, then there really hasnt been anything slowing D'tan down, including the civil war.
There are things that should also be remembered and those thing are:
The romulan people were tired of the Talshiar and because of this, it was on its last legs.
The Reunification movement had been underway gathering resources and contacts for a few decades if not longer.
The only thing truely holding them back was the senate, the military, and the Tal shiar.
Now all that said, the Senate was murdered by Shinzon. that removes them. The military was too occupied during the vacuum of power and tiring to figure out who rules. That left only the Tal shiar who honestly, couldnt affect them beyond intel gathering. (I base this on them never capturing a high value federation member, namely Spock.) Once things were this way everyone that could run, DID. they even had a supernova (which we find out was cause by the Tal shiar and ordered by the iconians and or their minions.) to cover their escape. Thats when thoses that run found all the things the military and the Talshiar could hold on to.
You must also remember the Remans may have the vault, but it was NEVER determined where the secret reman shipyards are. (The Scimitar was contructed SOMEWHERE.) Nor what it determined if said shipyards are destroyed and while we cant confirm or deny said shipyard destruction, we should assume the shipyards are both intact and functional. Now, if the vault CAN make ships...(one moment while i consult wiki...)...the Vualt appears to be a research base and while it doesnt say, considering the size, there is no reason to think ships cant be researched there and thus built. That said, it would mean the Remans have at least two functioning shipyards, one of which able to build Scimitar class ships.
you must also remember the romulans have at least one working shipyard building its ships which is also able to build scimitar class ships (how else would the romulans have them...?)
Now considering the Remans and the RR are working together, that means there are at least 2 working shipyards. AND they have the resources to run them, the personnel to work in them, and the material to construct said ships......
What we have here is a full functioning nation complete with a fuctioning military AND the resources to supporting, with people leaving what is left of the old empire in droves.
Now, who said they couldnt build new ships? Hell everything someone has said they couldnt do, they have done. It has been said that the romulans need the other two nations....(KDF and FED) I can not see this as true. In fact, i would say the Romulans have expertly positioned themselves in the backyard of their former enemies. They have tech the others want and will fight for, they have a friend the others at least consider an ok idea, and they have and empire they dont have to worry too much about because the FED will keep the KDF out of romulan space and vise versa, all in hopes of being allowed to profit of the dyson tech. All while the Romulans build up their empire.....using the borg tech everyone seems to have forgotten they have....
People, the Romulans have been, and by the looks of thing STILL a major power and whats better, they have the KDF/FED to call on so they dont have to use much of their own resources. They have nothing to use their time, power, money, and resources on other than rebuilding and research.
THAT is how the Romulans have done all they have in such a short time. They have things people want.
I do not find this ship nice looking.....Sorry. Too Long, not wide enough and parts of it look weird....again, thats just my opinion.
but THIS is what you'll be getting for the anniversary: (below)
How do you know this is what we are getting? this doesnt look to bad but it looks like another sci ship or escort, not a cruiser.... Another Ar'kif-like ship.
That is neither here nor there. you are asking about the "why's" and hows, without thinking about the "facts:"
The romulans have had all these resources and felt they did not need them to run their empire.
The destruction of romulans did not hinder the romulans as much as others seem to believe.
If the romulans can do all they have done in a year or less time, then there really hasnt been anything slowing D'tan down, including the civil war.
There are things that should also be remembered and those thing are:
The romulan people were tired of the Talshiar and because of this, it was on its last legs.
The Reunification movement had been underway gathering resources and contacts for a few decades if not longer.
The only thing truely holding them back was the senate, the military, and the Tal shiar.
Now all that said, the Senate was murdered by Shinzon. that removes them. The military was too occupied during the vacuum of power and tiring to figure out who rules. That left only the Tal shiar who honestly, couldnt affect them beyond intel gathering. (I base this on them never capturing a high value federation member, namely Spock.) Once things were this way everyone that could run, DID. they even had a supernova (which we find out was cause by the Tal shiar and ordered by the iconians and or their minions.) to cover their escape. Thats when thoses that run found all the things the military and the Talshiar could hold on to.
You must also remember the Remans may have the vault, but it was NEVER determined where the secret reman shipyards are. (The Scimitar was contructed SOMEWHERE.) Nor what it determined if said shipyards are destroyed and while we cant confirm or deny said shipyard destruction, we should assume the shipyards are both intact and functional. Now, if the vault CAN make ships...(one moment while i consult wiki...)...the Vualt appears to be a research base and while it doesnt say, considering the size, there is no reason to think ships cant be researched there and thus built. That said, it would mean the Remans have at least two functioning shipyards, one of which able to build Scimitar class ships.
you must also remember the romulans have at least one working shipyard building its ships which is also able to build scimitar class ships (how else would the romulans have them...?)
Now considering the Remans and the RR are working together, that means there are at least 2 working shipyards. AND they have the resources to run them, the personnel to work in them, and the material to construct said ships......
What we have here is a full functioning nation complete with a fuctioning military AND the resources to supporting, with people leaving what is left of the old empire in droves.
Now, who said they couldnt build new ships? Hell everything someone has said they couldnt do, they have done. It has been said that the romulans need the other two nations....(KDF and FED) I can not see this as true. In fact, i would say the Romulans have expertly positioned themselves in the backyard of their former enemies. They have tech the others want and will fight for, they have a friend the others at least consider an ok idea, and they have and empire they dont have to worry too much about because the FED will keep the KDF out of romulan space and vise versa, all in hopes of being allowed to profit of the dyson tech. All while the Romulans build up their empire.....using the borg tech everyone seems to have forgotten they have....
People, the Romulans have been, and by the looks of thing STILL a major power and whats better, they have the KDF/FED to call on so they dont have to use much of their own resources. They have nothing to use their time, power, money, and resources on other than rebuilding and research.
THAT is how the Romulans have done all they have in such a short time. They have things people want.
That is neither here nor there. you are asking about the "why's" and hows, without thinking about the "facts:"
The romulans have had all these resources and felt they did not need them to run their empire.
The destruction of romulans did not hinder the romulans as much as others seem to believe.
If the romulans can do all they have done in a year or less time, then there really hasnt been anything slowing D'tan down, including the civil war.
There are things that should also be remembered and those thing are:
The romulan people were tired of the Talshiar and because of this, it was on its last legs.
The Reunification movement had been underway gathering resources and contacts for a few decades if not longer.
The only thing truely holding them back was the senate, the military, and the Tal shiar.
Now all that said, the Senate was murdered by Shinzon. that removes them. The military was too occupied during the vacuum of power and tiring to figure out who rules. That left only the Tal shiar who honestly, couldnt affect them beyond intel gathering. (I base this on them never capturing a high value federation member, namely Spock.) Once things were this way everyone that could run, DID. they even had a supernova (which we find out was cause by the Tal shiar and ordered by the iconians and or their minions.) to cover their escape. Thats when thoses that run found all the things the military and the Talshiar could hold on to.
You must also remember the Remans may have the vault, but it was NEVER determined where the secret reman shipyards are. (The Scimitar was contructed SOMEWHERE.) Nor what it determined if said shipyards are destroyed and while we cant confirm or deny said shipyard destruction, we should assume the shipyards are both intact and functional. Now, if the vault CAN make ships...(one moment while i consult wiki...)...the Vualt appears to be a research base and while it doesnt say, considering the size, there is no reason to think ships cant be researched there and thus built. That said, it would mean the Remans have at least two functioning shipyards, one of which able to build Scimitar class ships.
you must also remember the romulans have at least one working shipyard building its ships which is also able to build scimitar class ships (how else would the romulans have them...?)
Now considering the Remans and the RR are working together, that means there are at least 2 working shipyards. AND they have the resources to run them, the personnel to work in them, and the material to construct said ships......
What we have here is a full functioning nation complete with a fuctioning military AND the resources to supporting, with people leaving what is left of the old empire in droves.
Now, who said they couldnt build new ships? Hell everything someone has said they couldnt do, they have done. It has been said that the romulans need the other two nations....(KDF and FED) I can not see this as true. In fact, i would say the Romulans have expertly positioned themselves in the backyard of their former enemies. They have tech the others want and will fight for, they have a friend the others at least consider an ok idea, and they have and empire they dont have to worry too much about because the FED will keep the KDF out of romulan space and vise versa, all in hopes of being allowed to profit of the dyson tech. All while the Romulans build up their empire.....using the borg tech everyone seems to have forgotten they have....
People, the Romulans have been, and by the looks of thing STILL a major power and whats better, they have the KDF/FED to call on so they dont have to use much of their own resources. They have nothing to use their time, power, money, and resources on other than rebuilding and research.
THAT is how the Romulans have done all they have in such a short time. They have things people want.
EDIT:
I get all you are saying. It is roughly what I have been saying. I was replying to you asking what the timeline is now. And except for the line about two weeks prior to Vega, and the academy graduation being in I think January of 2409. There are no dates mentioned. That's it.
From what you just wrote here we are both on the same side.
As for the three images supposedly from the dyson anniversary. I doubt they are new flagships. If only because it is a bit soon to mothball the Oddy and Bort.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Comments
Interesting. At what point is it impossible for a founded nation with hostiles around them and their previous government gunning for them, to build shipyards?
How is it impossible that to show they mean what they say that they will christen a flagship to show themselves as a true sovereign power?
If it cannot be done at all then there are nations on earth that must have candy striped faeries as well.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Interesting and well thought.
I am curious however how you have the flagship of a nation.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Hmm, oppressed colonists. Fight off the armed forces of their parent nation and found themselves a new country. Creating a new capitol in a city that did not exist prior. Building that country up. Fighting a second war with the parent country then growing as an upstart country to a super power that eventually came to the defense of the original parent country.
Ring any bells?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
everyone has to start somewhere. I bet 300 years ago Brittan didnt think we would become a superpower. In 300 years who is to say what will happen. But he DOES have a point. Besides. The romulans only lost I bit more than i system. the thing that makes it seem worst in the fact that the government was already falling apart when that happened.
If you read some previous pages of this thread you'd realize I already posted that this is the case: where the fleet or squadron commander is located defines which ship is the flagship.
A very good historic example from WW2 was the HMS Belfast, a light (as in 6 inch guns) cruiser which was the flagship of a cruiser squadron that also contained the HMS Norfolk, a heavy (as in 8 in guns) cruiser.
So technically it was not even the most heavily armed ship in the squadron.
My point was that it sounded like you meant to say that only 3-pack ships sould be considered flagship candidates. Otherwise your comment
makes very little sense to me.
Besides I thought the Scimitar was added because people cried foul since there was no Scimitar...3 days after release of LoR as this thread titled "No Scimitar Yet?" from May 24th shows:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=705131
and not because there was no 3-pack.
Salient points. However, we could go in circles on the points in red, since there is alot of room for supposition on both ends. You're supposing that the prideful Romulans wouldn't copy a Reman ship, but these aren't the same Roms from the shows. In that vein I could also continue to suppose that the original Scimitar couldn't have been built without Romulan engineering, evidenced by the fact that any Reman ships we see only appear after the Scimitar, and that the majority of Obisek's fleet are Mogais, Tvaros, Dhelans, etc.
Oh, and just to jump in on the colonial talk....the real problem is that the timescale is a few years at most? With the largest Remnant of the RSE fighting them all the way? Having the RR this rich and at the same time needing both the KDF and Feds is odd to say the least.
My fellow Romulans I implore you not to let our pride overwhelm our pragmatism. If a Reman designed ship allows me to win, I'm fine with that. Not that I'm entirely convinced that they did it alone. Do remember that we used Klingon designed ships within living memory.
If the Republic fields an even more advanced flagship on a later date then that is fine. In the meantime, we all know that the Bortasqu' and the Odyssey...aren't quite up to our standards are they?
On a completely unrelated note, will we have the Lleiset intervening to assist us in Tau Dewa missions like with the Odyssey and the Bortas anytime soon?
As for the definition of a flagship as used in the Star Trek universe it also stands as a prestige symbol. Like the Japanese Battleship Yamato albeit actually functional as a warship. Picard and others often referred to the Enterprise as the Federation Flagship though he had the clout, he wasn't an Admiral or a fleet commander, and the same can be said of Shon, Koren, and Tiaru Jarok. It is a symbol of strength and capability that says, "Look upon our works and be awed for we can build and field this magnificent ship".
But that one system is important. Depending on which supplemental's figures you go by, I'll use Star Charts, Romulus lost the vast majority of the 16 billion Romulans living on Romulus including the Senate. Romulus was the capitol of everything center of their politics, identity, and economics. Look at Madran's hard labor scam in the Hfihar system. Once Romulus was gone everything fell apart. It's not the equivalent of, to use an America-centric example, Washington DC being nuked, it's the equivalent of the entire East Coast from seashore to Appalachia being nuked and falling into the Ocean before any of the government can get out. It's a complete disaster that destroys everything people, identity, landmarks, history, government, economy, and prestige.
Yes the defiant WAS a flagship. i have sourced this fact myself. I still think the Ar'kala/Ar'kif should be the flagship.
Except that no matter what example I do bring to the table you will simply say it does not apply as they are not the Romulans.
But just to play along.
Virinat was a what? A colony. So we could stretch and put a check mark there. (And I admit stretch if you require 100% equal requirements)
But instead how about we go back further in history. The glorious Roman empire/republic. Eventually tears itself apart through infighting. (I have had instructors quarrel as to exact methods of demise.) Each of it's outlying territories throws off the mantle of the Roman rule and founds new countries that grew to be nations in their own time.
France, Spain, Germany, England.
Fairly certain if we look back before the Romans you will see the same pattern again.
Large nation fails to keep itself in check and dissolves into smaller different countries that will eventually grow into powers of their time.
So again why is the Romulan Republic so far fetched?
Edit to Add: Oh and foreign powers do not always stay out of civil wars. In the revolution, France chose to send modest support to the colonies just to spite England.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Ok, i will bite.
And then the scimitar is flagship because.........
...why again? It surely is not fast, it canted get out of a fight to save its life....(at least not with my build.) I dont know how many times i have have to fight my way out of situations.
By that yardstick the Cardassians should be ruling the alpha quadrant since they:
a) only got their homeworld shot up.
b) still retain all their planets under one banner
RR on the other hand:
a) got their homeworld completely eradicated
b) went through civil war and still is in civil war
c) under attack from elachi
d) just started rebuilding a capital basically
e) im not entirely sure on this one, but is this all still 2409? What's the time frame for getting Virinat blown up, joining D'Tan, finding New Romulus, dropping a city, finishing the gateway? What the hell the Cardassians been doing all this time, if the Romulans have had, say a few years to do this?
The only way to really fix these gaping plotholes is:
a) Reduce the Romulans' power
b) Make them their own faction
I suspect Cryptic didn't have the time/manpower to do the latter in time for LOR so we got our current system, and I see a possible retcon in the future.
Thank you. That is more in five paragraphs than I got in four years of highschool.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Let me see. I know that they put the invasion of Virinat two weeks before the borg invasion of Vega Colony. And this was at the beginning of 2409. After that they don't make any notations of date that I am recalling. I think we are to assume that all content happens in less than a year. Some of it I can accept based on replicator technology and the insertion of materials from two major powers.
The biggest boost I still say comes from Obisek joining the Republic and brining the resources of the vault into play.
To me the question is not how the Romulan Republic has the resources. But why were those resources abandoned in the first place?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Exactly what I kept saying: Romulan Flagship - Kerchan Class. (see below)
badassedness at its badassedest
http://bit.ly/1iheaI3
but THIS is what you'll be getting for the anniversary: (below)
"The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy" ~ The Doctor
That is neither here nor there. you are asking about the "why's" and hows, without thinking about the "facts:"
The romulans have had all these resources and felt they did not need them to run their empire.
The destruction of romulans did not hinder the romulans as much as others seem to believe.
If the romulans can do all they have done in a year or less time, then there really hasnt been anything slowing D'tan down, including the civil war.
There are things that should also be remembered and those thing are:
The romulan people were tired of the Talshiar and because of this, it was on its last legs.
The Reunification movement had been underway gathering resources and contacts for a few decades if not longer.
The only thing truely holding them back was the senate, the military, and the Tal shiar.
Now all that said, the Senate was murdered by Shinzon. that removes them. The military was too occupied during the vacuum of power and tiring to figure out who rules. That left only the Tal shiar who honestly, couldnt affect them beyond intel gathering. (I base this on them never capturing a high value federation member, namely Spock.) Once things were this way everyone that could run, DID. they even had a supernova (which we find out was cause by the Tal shiar and ordered by the iconians and or their minions.) to cover their escape. Thats when thoses that run found all the things the military and the Talshiar could hold on to.
You must also remember the Remans may have the vault, but it was NEVER determined where the secret reman shipyards are. (The Scimitar was contructed SOMEWHERE.) Nor what it determined if said shipyards are destroyed and while we cant confirm or deny said shipyard destruction, we should assume the shipyards are both intact and functional. Now, if the vault CAN make ships...(one moment while i consult wiki...)...the Vualt appears to be a research base and while it doesnt say, considering the size, there is no reason to think ships cant be researched there and thus built. That said, it would mean the Remans have at least two functioning shipyards, one of which able to build Scimitar class ships.
you must also remember the romulans have at least one working shipyard building its ships which is also able to build scimitar class ships (how else would the romulans have them...?)
Now considering the Remans and the RR are working together, that means there are at least 2 working shipyards. AND they have the resources to run them, the personnel to work in them, and the material to construct said ships......
What we have here is a full functioning nation complete with a fuctioning military AND the resources to supporting, with people leaving what is left of the old empire in droves.
Now, who said they couldnt build new ships? Hell everything someone has said they couldnt do, they have done. It has been said that the romulans need the other two nations....(KDF and FED) I can not see this as true. In fact, i would say the Romulans have expertly positioned themselves in the backyard of their former enemies. They have tech the others want and will fight for, they have a friend the others at least consider an ok idea, and they have and empire they dont have to worry too much about because the FED will keep the KDF out of romulan space and vise versa, all in hopes of being allowed to profit of the dyson tech. All while the Romulans build up their empire.....using the borg tech everyone seems to have forgotten they have....
People, the Romulans have been, and by the looks of thing STILL a major power and whats better, they have the KDF/FED to call on so they dont have to use much of their own resources. They have nothing to use their time, power, money, and resources on other than rebuilding and research.
THAT is how the Romulans have done all they have in such a short time. They have things people want.
EDIT:
OK,OK, calm down celeb-beater. Here's your source. Call it invalid but I'll be the one laughing when I see one of these in your shipyard: http://us.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/1vlsd1/so_apparently_these_are_our_dysontech_anniversary/
"The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy" ~ The Doctor
I get all you are saying. It is roughly what I have been saying. I was replying to you asking what the timeline is now. And except for the line about two weeks prior to Vega, and the academy graduation being in I think January of 2409. There are no dates mentioned. That's it.
From what you just wrote here we are both on the same side.
As for the three images supposedly from the dyson anniversary. I doubt they are new flagships. If only because it is a bit soon to mothball the Oddy and Bort.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.