The Romulan flagship should be a starship that portrays the ideals,values and aspirations of the Romulan Republic. The fugly Scimitar with her thalaron death-ray does not do this.
And I counter that with the simple fact that, a year ago the Republic didn't even exist, and it remains the space equivalent of a Third World country.* Thanks to the Remans the Falchion-class is available, and it's a big, impressive ship, so they're using it for the time being.
* That's also a problem I have with season 8. What the heck are the Republic doing spearheading an international military campaign on the other gorram side of the galaxy when their capital consists of an embassy and a collection of tents?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And I counter that with the simple fact that, a year ago the Republic didn't even exist, and it remains the space equivalent of a Third World country.* Thanks to the Remans the Falchion-class is available, and it's a big, impressive ship, so they're using it for the time being.
* That's also a problem I have with season 8. What the heck are the Republic doing spearheading an international military campaign on the other gorram side of the galaxy when their capital consists of an embassy and a collection of tents?
I agree, their ship sizes too, they should be downsizing their ships, given how much help they supposedly need. The Cardassians are still rebuilding after merely getting their homeworld shot up. Romulus was blown out of the stars, and the Empire is busy having a civil war, D'Tan & CO just touched down on a new planet....how do they afford these massive ships?
* That's also a problem I have with season 8. What the heck are the Republic doing spearheading an international military campaign on the other gorram side of the galaxy when their capital consists of an embassy and a collection of tents?
It's called, "When our powers combine, we can make up some bull****!"
The better part is they do this in between killing each other on behalf of the Federation & Klingon Empire overseers.
First, the RR is more than an embassy and a collection of tents. They have a flotilla of powerful warbird, just sitting out in space. Whats left of the RSE maybe be in civil war but that means its resources are up for grabs and between the Talshiar, the remans, and the RR the RSE has fallen into thirds the with Remans not really trying to grab much more than the vault. The Tal Shiar isnt going to grab a buch because big empires dont keep secrets very well and the Tal Shiar is ALL about their secrecy. That means the RR can grab pretty much what ever they want. And when conflict DOES happen, the RR has proven it can hold its own in battle.
Look at what is left of the Romulans, and their situation. They need a ship to be ready to defend them. They have the left over Tal Shiar after them, Elachi terrified them, and now the Iconia Gateway at their front door. They need something to be ready to defend what is left of them.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
On the other hand, Ha'Fehs, Ha'Noms, Ha'Apaxes and Haakonas all allow the IRW prefix. The Ar'Kif and Daeinos, the two exclusively Republic built ships, don't.
Prefixes don't really matter. My Romulan Tac flies an old D'deridex. That was found scuttled from a fight. The ship did belong to the Tal Shiar, however it was repaired and now used by the Republic. They just never changed the prefix. It helps add character/history to the ship.
Even my Federation Andorian ship don't use the USS prefix. I use the one you can pick from the choices.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I agree, their ship sizes too, they should be downsizing their ships, given how much help they supposedly need. The Cardassians are still rebuilding after merely getting their homeworld shot up. Romulus was blown out of the stars, and the Empire is busy having a civil war, D'Tan & CO just touched down on a new planet....how do they afford these massive ships?
They hired Clara from Dr who to be the impossible shipbuilding plot hole :P *flees*
And I counter that with the simple fact that, a year ago the Republic didn't even exist, and it remains the space equivalent of a Third World country.* Thanks to the Remans the Falchion-class is available, and it's a big, impressive ship, so they're using it for the time being.
* That's also a problem I have with season 8. What the heck are the Republic doing spearheading an international military campaign on the other gorram side of the galaxy when their capital consists of an embassy and a collection of tents?
Meh, stop looking for logic where there is none and you'll do just fine.
But for the sake of argument - that suposed space equivalent of a Third World country, since they've made home on Dewa III has designed and commsioned:
- The "fat" triplets - Ha'nom, Ha'pax, Ha'feh and their "big momma" - the Haakona.
- The Daeinos heavy destroyer.
- The Ar'kala and Ar'kif tactical warbirds.
So 7 new designs since they founded their new home. There is no logic, but because of this, to me it's not far fetched to believe they could commison a new flagship. Heck, any of those ships could have arguably been the new RR flagship.
What I'm saying is - the flagships of the Federation and the Klingon Empire are ships commisioned in 2409. The Scimitar is more than 40 years old by now. The RR needs a 2409 ship as a flagship.
It would have been ok for the Scimitar to be the flagship if the RR was portrayed to be in such a desparate situation in game as we come to expect. But they're not, they already released 7 new ships in 2409. So why couldn't they commision a new 2409 design as their flagship.
Besides, rumor has it that there was suposed to be another RR ship serving the role of flagship, but that didn't happen. Methinks something went wrong. But again, I'm beyond looking for logic in some things in STO because some stuff simply makes no sense.
My opinion is that the Scimitar simply doesn't portray the ideals and values of the new Romulan Republic and therefore she's not that apropriate to fill the role of the flagship. And I do believe that it would be fair towards Romulan players if the Republic had a new 2409 counterpart of the KDF/Fed flagships that would make the faction on equal ground with the other 2 in regards to this.
Meh, stop looking for logic where there is none and you'll do just fine.
But for the sake of argument - that suposed space equivalent of a Third World country, since they've made home on Dewa III has designed and commsioned:
- The "fat" triplets - Ha'nom, Ha'pax, Ha'feh and their "big momma" - the Haakona.
- The Daeinos heavy destroyer.
- The Ar'kala and Ar'kif tactical warbirds.
So 7 new designs since they founded their new home. There is no logic, but because of this, to me it's not far fetched to believe they could commison a new flagship. Heck, any of those ships could have arguably been the new RR flagship.
What I'm saying is - the flagships of the Federation and the Klingon Empire are ships commisioned in 2409. The Scimitar is more than 40 years old by now. The RR needs a 2409 ship as a flagship.
It would have been ok for the Scimitar to be the flagship if the RR was portrayed to be in such a desparate situation in game as we come to expect. But they're not, they already released 7 new ships in 2409. So why couldn't they commision a new 2409 design as their flagship.
Besides, rumor has it that there was suposed to be another RR ship serving the role of flagship, but that didn't happen. Methinks something went wrong. But again, I'm beyond looking for logic in some things in STO because some stuff simply makes no sense.
My opinion is that the Scimitar simply doesn't portray the ideals and values of the new Romulan Republic and therefore she's not that apropriate to fill the role of the flagship. And I do believe that it would be fair towards Romulan players if the Republic had a new 2409 counterpart of the KDF/Fed flagships that would make the faction on equal ground with the other 2 in regards to this.
The Ha' series of ships are from the RSE. The RR did not make them. it only seems that way because that is what they use. I have not seen anywhere on the wiki site that says those ships are of RR design. the Daenios, the Ar'kala and, the Ar'kif are the only ships the are designed solely for and by the RR.
That however does not refute your point. they DID make three new designs. any one of those can and SHOULD be at the very least be a temporary Flagship until "the pride of the Romulan Republic" can be built.
How the helll are we, as romulans suppose to be pround of our "flagship" when it is based on a ship used by a failed, flawed cloned human who lived with slaves, murdered the romulan senate and, tried and failed to take over our government with a ship designed to KILL ALL LIFE on a planet, suceeding only in fracturing our people, ALL resulting in our current civil war. Before that obsessed fool, even when our world was destroyed we would of been a united people! now look at us!
We jump and cower at the mere sighting of the Tal Shiar. The Elachi are encroaching into our space, the iconians think they can wipe us aside. The fed want us under their belt and the klingons think we are too weak to matter, with each one keeping the other out of OUR backyard!
And in this time of hardship, we cant even build our own gorram flagship, we have to have it handed to us by those we used to call slave!
I have nothing aganist the Remans. Let them have their freedom AND THEIR FLAGSHIP!
I am not saying we shouldnt use their ships but the Romulan people deserve a Romulan Flagship with which to soar into a Romulan future!!
Hear is an idea:
A Not-so-huge, Romulan Flagship with a dropping forward sweped wing attached to a steamlined delta style body. Designed to use Beam arrays, with the nacelles attached at the point where the wings and body meet and slightly below that point on short pylons. something longer than it is wide. Hell Id even design it myself if they want.....
I'm going to ignore most of the pointless nerd debate, and throw in that I think Romulan's should get a brand new Cryptic designed Flag ship on par with the other factions instead of giving us a recycled Reman ship. Its also a chance for them to give us something less wide and more long, and more elegant like the D'Deridex or Moagi. I'm not sure where this super fat central hull aesthetic came from, but I'll say I'm not a fan.
The Ha' series predated the fouding for the Republic, otherwise they wouldn't be part of the Romulan Flotilla that predates the founding of the RR.
This might simply mean that all the examples of this class ended up in the hands of of the "rebellious" faction within the Romulan Empire.
Ignoring the players who fly them, we only see a handful of them at any given time so there are probably just a few of them around.
I'd hazard a guess here and say the RSE decided not to build more of them and just churned out more D'Ds and refit them.
To build new and large ships the RR needs not only the raw materials and refineries to turn them into construction materials but also factories and shipyards large enough to hold the frame.
Since the RR decided to make its home away from the core worlds of the RSE, where the shipyards would be located, for reasons of security, the probably don't have a facilities to build big ships. That would explain why all the newer ones are comparatively small.
Before the appearance of the Scimitar and its cousins as playable ships, there was a speculation thread where we came up with a compromise solution that would allow the RR to get its hands on a new, big and non-Scimitar flagship that the RSE doesn't have:
THE VAULT
The RSE abandoned it and its research. So the idea was to have the RR search through the Vault and find an unfinished prototype advanced warbird in a hidden shipyard they can complete in a few months time
But I've got to say that thanks to bunansa's "Romulan designs for ROMULANS" line, which is shy of jumping up and shouting "Heil Romulaner!", I seriously hope Cryptic never picks up this idea.
isn't a flagship simply a ship with a flag officer (an admiral) onboard?
pretty sure in naval tradition that is the case.
so that would make any ship "the player" uses is a flagship from level 40 upwards, since that's were you become an admiral.
Yep, but these are the STO forums.
Here people come up with absurd definitins of what is what and claim this is how it's in real life. And when they get told -and proven- it's the opposite of RL the response is "STFU, this is Star Trek!"...which probably means it's trans-reality-fantasy-SF that must follow their definition of what's right.
as stated above, a flag ship is simply a vessel on which the fleets flag officer resides, usualy this will be an admiral but not in every case, for example the Enterpirse has been the Flagship for the Federation for years, it has gone through many ship types, none of which could specificaly be classed as a Flagship, the federation tend to use their most promenant and advanced cruiser as their flagship, hence the latest enterprise being a Oddesy class. The KDF flag Vessel is currently the Bortasque, again this is the largest ship of the line for the Klingons so naturaly portrays the strength of the Empire, The Romulan Star Empire used the Scimtar for their Flagship, as this was Sela's ship while she was Empress, Shinzon used the same class of ship during his reign as Pretor, but they were never a dedicated Flagship, just advanced Heavy Warbirds.
At no point has there ever been a Dedicated Flagship for a species, each race/faction chooses a ship based on the ideals of the current leadership, so depending on who is in charge it could be a cruiser during one reign, and a carrier during the next.
If anyone can name me a DEDICATED FLAGSHIP in any Startrek or in Star Trek Online, if you can show us any such specific vessel then I see no reason why they cant have Flagships in STO.
Right I have my flame Retardant Suit on so, Please Flame Away.
Jorhana Kreig: KDF, Tal'is: Romulan Fed, Shona'a: Romulan KDF, Johan Paul Kreig: Fed
as stated above, a flag ship is simply a vessel on which the fleets flag officer resides, usualy this will be an admiral but not in every case, for example the Enterpirse has been the Flagship for the Federation for years, it has gone through many ship types, none of which could specificaly be classed as a Flagship, the federation tend to use their most promenant and advanced cruiser as their flagship, hence the latest enterprise being a Oddesy class. The KDF flag Vessel is currently the Bortasque, again this is the largest ship of the line for the Klingons so naturaly portrays the strength of the Empire, The Romulan Star Empire used the Scimtar for their Flagship, as this was Sela's ship while she was Empress, Shinzon used the same class of ship during his reign as Pretor, but they were never a dedicated Flagship, just advanced Heavy Warbirds.
At no point has there ever been a Dedicated Flagship for a species, each race/faction chooses a ship based on the ideals of the current leadership, so depending on who is in charge it could be a cruiser during one reign, and a carrier during the next.
If anyone can name me a DEDICATED FLAGSHIP in any Startrek or in Star Trek Online, if you can show us any such specific vessel then I see no reason why they cant have Flagships in STO.
Right I have my flame Retardant Suit on so, Please Flame Away.
It could be argued that because the ship called "Enterprise" has always been the FED flagship for.......A LONG TIME, the last 150 years at least...and the enterprise is always one of if not THE most advances, largest, newest ship(at time of its construction)in the fleet other than the class namesake, it stands to reason that these ship were built with the understanding that they would indeed be flagships. Ships BUILT TO BE FLAGSHIPS.
While yes, it IS true that any naval vessel with a leading flag officer is a/the flagship, the term "flagship" isnt given to just ANYTHING. Imagine if you will:
"Hmmmm i have a two carriers, 5 destroyers, 3 subs, and 4 battleships....," thinks the commanding admiral as he began to choose his flagship, "all these are great ships but, gimme a row boat, a radio and a rifle! The row boat will be my flagship since i am on that!"
-_- really? Seriously? a row boat can be a Flagship? by the logic of others.....yea it can be.
B.
S.
The Enterprise series of ships have ALWAYS been ship that embody the best of starfleet both in personnel and Ideals, commanded by the best of captains with the highest of honor......except that Enterprise B captain....he was a moron.
The only time A new Enterprise was made was when the previous ship was too old to continue or destroyed. The FED flagship has ALWAYS been the pride of their fleet. same with the KDF.
The Excelsior class
The Ambassador class
The Galaxy Class
The Sovereign Class
The Odyssey Class
ALL were DESIGNED to be FLAGSHIPS. The Nevgar, the new KDF flag whos name escapes me, DESIGNED to be flagships.
What do Romulans get? A ship DESIGNED to be the villain and kill planets.....
How bloody fair is that? All we Romulans want is a Romulan ship designed to be a flagship, like everyone else....
It could be argued that because the ship called "Enterprise" has always been the FED flagship for.......A LONG TIME, the last 150 years at least...and the enterprise is always one of if not THE most advances, largest, newest ship(at time of its construction)in the fleet other than the class namesake, it stands to reason that these ship were built with the understanding that they would indeed be flagships. Ships BUILT TO BE FLAGSHIPS.
While yes, it IS true that any naval vessel with a leading flag officer is a/the flagship, the term "flagship" isnt given to just ANYTHING. Imagine if you will:
"Hmmmm i have a two carriers, 5 destroyers, 3 subs, and 4 battleships....," thinks the commanding admiral as he began to choose his flagship, "all these are great ships but, gimme a row boat, a radio and a rifle! The row boat will be my flagship since i am on that!"
-_- really? Seriously? a row boat can be a Flagship? by the logic of others.....yea it can be.
B.
S.
The Enterprise series of ships have ALWAYS been ship that embody the best of starfleet both in personnel and Ideals, commanded by the best of captains with the highest of honor......except that Enterprise B captain....he was a moron.
The only time A new Enterprise was made was when the previous ship was too old to continue or destroyed. The FED flagship has ALWAYS been the pride of their fleet. same with the KDF.
The Excelsior class
The Ambassador class
The Galaxy Class
The Sovereign Class
The Odyssey Class
ALL were DESIGNED to be FLAGSHIPS. The Nevgar, the new KDF flag whos name escapes me, DESIGNED to be flagships.
What do Romulans get? A ship DESIGNED to be the villain and kill planets.....
How bloody fair is that? All we Romulans want is a Romulan ship designed to be a flagship, like everyone else....
I'd like to see your evidence that these ships were designed as flagships because I can't find any. Neither was any USS Enterprise beyond the D ever called flagship in dialogue.
Oh, BTW what did Martok (the real one) use as his flagship? The Rotarren and, when that one was damaged, the Ch'tang. Both are Birds of Prey.
I'd like to see your evidence that these ships were designed as flagships because I can't find any. Neither was any USS Enterprise beyond the D ever called flagship in dialogue.
Oh, BTW what did Martok (the real one) use as his flagship? The Rotarren and, when that one was damaged, the Ch'tang. Both are Birds of Prey.
On design, see remarks made by real world designers of the ships. first off, 1701 and 1701-A were both Flagships. 1701-B, an Excelsior class, called the "Queen of Space, a Super Starship"
(http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Excelsior_class)
The Ambassador Class was designed to look like a cross between, or step between, the excelsior and the galaxy. While little is known about her, it is reasonable to assume she is a flagship. (will explain shortly.)
As for Martok and the rotarran as his flagship, Yes, it was a flagship but only of THAT kdf fleet, not the entire fdf. Considering he couldnt of been at the first battle of chintoka with the Rotarren(it would of been destroyed with the rest of the fleet) we cant be sure he intended on that remaining his flagship. But we DO know Martok himself was there, he can be herd during the episode. It stands to reason the Rotarran is/was at least a temporary Flagship OR only the flagship for the Ninth fleet, not the entire KDF. It maybe worth noting that while never the Starfleet Flagship, the NX-74205 (Defiant) was the flagship of the FED 2nd fleet.
Now, about the Enterprise, Considering NX-01's actions, that it was an important factor during founding the the federation, and considering Admiral Pike's comment that 1701 was the "New Flagship" it can also be argued that although never stated, the Enterprise series of ships were always the flagship for Starfleet in its entirety. While yes, i admit this is an alternate universe reference, there is nothing to discount it in the prime universe. In fact, considering the elation of many who were assigned to the various enterprises, their respect for the ships goes to suggest that at the enterprise is the flagship.
As a note, it CAN be confirmed that 1701-D and as its replacement most likely 1701-E, was indeed the Starfleet flagship.
Now, i will admit this is all speculation however, it is all logical, sound speculation. There is also no evidence to disprove any of it, in fact if even vague, there is much to SUGGEST it.
Considering 1701-F is the in game flagship, the Odyssey Class given to players, and the the KDF flagship which was also given to players, are both ships which are built by their respective owners, it is also resonable to think Romulan players would want a ship built by romulans to be their flagship.
@chrisbrown, well you could say the Scimi was designed by Shinzon to be his flagship no? If you really want a Romulan flagship, you can fly the Ha'apax, its at the center of the Romulan Flotilla and is its flagship. Perhaps D'Tan merely decided to update to the Falchion, because being based on the Scimitar, even at 40 years old it's still immensely powerful.
I don't really understand why the scimitar should not be a proper Flagship, being the heaviest ship in Star Trek (except Borg ships).
Also: look at FED and KDF Flagships:
Galaxy-X
Odyssey
Jupiter
Bortas
VoQuv (can it be considered a Flagship ?)
none of this is as powerful as the scimitar, in both: game and movies.
Romulan Flotilla used the Ha'Apex as flagship when they fought against the Tal'Shiar, whose flagship was the Scimitar.
HOWEVER: I always imagined the romulan flagship as a gigantic D'Deridex with 2 pairs of scimitar's wings *_*
I always thought the Romulan D'deridex Class was the Romulan flagship on television. If they did make a flagship I would think it would follow those lines.
I always thought the Romulan D'deridex Class was the Romulan flagship on television. If they did make a flagship I would think it would follow those lines.
It was, but the issue is the new flagships. The Galaxy and Negh'var were flagships, but have been replaced with the Odyssey and Bortas'qu respectively. Romulans would like a more Romulan-esque flagship in a similar vein, as a 3-pack, instead of the Scimitar, which is a Reman-esque design. However, the Ha'apax/Haakona is suitable as a flagship imo. Also, as mentioned by shinzonisback, it's the most powerful so that counts for something.
@chrisbrown, well you could say the Scimi was designed by Shinzon to be his flagship no? If you really want a Romulan flagship, you can fly the Ha'apax, its at the center of the Romulan Flotilla and is its flagship. Perhaps D'Tan merely decided to update to the Falchion, because being based on the Scimitar, even at 40 years old it's still immensely powerful.
I would indeed admit that the Scimitar is undoubtedly Shinzon's Flagship. But that is part of the problem considering his origins and what he stands for. The Scimitar is an extention of Shinzon and his upbringing. A ship whos sole purpose is to destory, and it does so excellently. Dont get me wrong, i dont think it is a bad ship, hell even i have one, But simply because its the biggest dakka beast the roms have doesnt mean it should be the flagship. Especially if it fails to represent the romulan people. How does a REMAN ship do that? By all means, let the Scimitar be the Reman flagship. They are going to break away at some point anyway.
As for the Ha'apax, i could except that only to a point, you see, that ship(at least in my experience) has no firepower, turns horribly, and was designed by the RSE not the RR.
Granted it is BIG, it is ROMULAN, and it is used as a the current RR flag. it is just SO lackluster. if they were to re-release the ship as a 3-pack, I would be all for it.
Honestly i must thank you for bringing that up however, i doubt cryptic will redo a ship. They havent yet have they? Wouldnt they just make another?
Hey Cryptic......i said id design it, draw it up.....i DO have ideas....
How does a REMAN ship do that? By all means, let the Scimitar be the Reman flagship. They are going to break away at some point anyway.
As for the Ha'apax, i could except that only to a point, you see, that ship(at least in my experience) has no firepower, turns horribly, and was designed by the RSE not the RR.
Granted it is BIG, it is ROMULAN, and it is used as a the current RR flag. it is just SO lackluster.
These points are what I want to address. D'Tan is a unificationist. If anything the story so far shows that the Romulans do NOT have the resources to design an entirely new vessel from the ground up. A modern refit(Falchion) of the Reman symbol of liberation(Scimitar), by the new RR serves well to show a united front with new beginnings.
Addressing the point about the Ha'apax, if it cannot be accepted because it is lackluster, why can't the Scimi be accepted because it's so good?
These points are what I want to address. D'Tan is a unificationist. If anything the story so far shows that the Romulans do NOT have the resources to design an entirely new vessel from the ground up. A modern refit(Falchion) of the Reman symbol of liberation(Scimitar), by the new RR serves well to show a united front with new beginnings.
Addressing the point about the Ha'apax, if it cannot be accepted because it is lackluster, why can't the Scimi be accepted because it's so good?
I love good deabtes! lol
Just a disclaimer: at no time will i flip out and get all pissed off, We are all adults and can discuss this like adults if i have rubbed anyone the wrong way, say so.... and im sorry.
That said, The RR does, can and has designed and built at least 2 ships from the ground up so yes they can build their own flagship.
Ar'kala
Ar'kif
Daenios.....(not sure on this one.)
Next. i personally find it hard to see the Scimitar, i Superweapon of Mass Dakka capable of stripping the life off entire worlds a symbol for liberation..... was the Romulan Senate "Liberated?" I Scimitar is a WARSHIP and a DAMN good one. But it symbolized the brutality of its creators. Granted, Romulans made them that way by enslaving them....
The Scimitar says, quite loudly in fact, "We done being your slaves and we arent going to take it anymore! We will kill you ALL if we have to." It is also NOT a romulan ship. It is Reman. Now i admit a lot of what i just said IS conjecture however, it IS reman, it IS a warship and, it DOES has a superweapon the can kill all life on a planet. It just doesn't sing coom-by-ya while hold the paws of kittens now does it?
Also, i am not saying the Scimitar isnt "flagship" worthy. Just not ROMULAN FLAGSHIP worthy. Let the Remans have it. If the are trying to show a united front allow the designing of the New Flagship be a joint venture, not the strickly Reman designed Dakka monster.
Edit: How about a compromise? Keep the Scimitar but give it a new skin? that way the skin can be like a new ship, it wouldnt give the Romulans another bad TRIBBLE ship but WOULD give a Romulan version of it. Kinda like? we see your reman scimitar and raise you a ROMULAN scimitar.
Or People HAVE been asking for a two deck frigate launching Rom Carrier. Make one of those and then make THAT the flagship. kind of like the DD in Boff layout with 3 tac consoles 4 eng and 2 sci with the fleet version getting a 3rd sci console. So....like the DD only a carrier. and a 6-7 turn rate. ....the side of the Haapax but long not wide...
Just a disclaimer: at no time will i flip out and get all pissed off, We are all adults and can discuss this like adults if i have rubbed anyone the wrong way, say so.... and im sorry.
That said, The RR does, can and has designed and built at least 2 ships from the ground up so yes they can build their own flagship.
Ar'kala
Ar'kif
Daenios.....(not sure on this one.)
[For simplicity I'll consider a "battleship" to mean the same as a "mighty flagship" in my post]
Several nations in history that easily managed to build destroyers and cruisers didn't build battleships...or only one or two.
The reason is that with size the complexity of the ship and cost increase a lot.
The design phase alone takes much longer, building it takes about 50% longer than a heavy cruiser and the cost increases roughly by the same factor as tonnage does.
Building and commisioning a Fletcher class destroyer took about 6 months, a Baltimore cruiser a bit more than 20 months and an Iowa battleship a bit more than 30 months.
And that is assuming you have a shipyard on hand that is large enough to construct the ship and an entire industry to build all the needed parts in time. Otherwise you need to build all that as well. Hence trowing out a destroyer is, by comparison, pretty easy. Building something much much bigger is a hughe pain in the butt; literally.:)
Edit: How about a compromise? Keep the Scimitar but give it a new skin?
That was what I was going for with the Falchion bit, but I figure that might be seen as not Romulan enough as well, given the only slight variation in the 3 Scimi models.
You're right about the Arkif, Arkala and Daeinos, however as pointed out by misterde3 above, it's much easier, and makes more sense, for the RR to design ships like these.
Sidenote: Love that Admiral Jarok's daughter is captain of the RR flagship. Also, yes it's nice to have a discussion on the internet without mudslinging kudos to you sir :cool:
That was what I was going for with the Falchion bit, but I figure that might be seen as not Romulan enough as well, given the only slight variation in the 3 Scimi models.
You're right about the Arkif, Arkala and Daeinos, however as pointed out by misterde3 above, it's much easier, and makes more sense, for the RR to design ships like these.
Sidenote: Love that Admiral Jarok's daughter is captain of the RR flagship. Also, yes it's nice to have a discussion on the internet without mudslinging kudos to you sir :cool:
The thing with the falchion is.....it is STILL reman...Now if we were to go with me "reskin" idea, i think it should look NOTHING like the scimitar. I am talking about smooth green bird-like lines that flow. It should look as fast as the E-E, and graceful as the DD and as Romulan as....Something extremely romulan....lol
[For simplicity I'll consider a "battleship" to mean the same as a "mighty flagship" in my post]
Several nations in history that easily managed to build destroyers and cruisers didn't build battleships...or only one or two.
The reason is that with size the complexity of the ship and cost increase a lot.
The design phase alone takes much longer, building it takes about 50% longer than a heavy cruiser and the cost increases roughly by the same factor as tonnage does.
Building and commisioning a Fletcher class destroyer took about 6 months, a Baltimore cruiser a bit more than 20 months and an Iowa battleship a bit more than 30 months.
And that is assuming you have a shipyard on hand that is large enough to construct the ship and an entire industry to build all the needed parts in time. Otherwise you need to build all that as well. Hence trowing out a destroyer is, by comparison, pretty easy. Building something much much bigger is a hughe pain in the butt; literally.:)
These are points a logical debate in this situation cant deny. youre both right, however, I take this to mean this if anything, the current RR flagship should be an Ar'Kala. (its the newest ship between it and the Ar'kif) I wouldnt be oppose to this idea.
if we are looking at a fledgling country, empire, government, what-have-you, we must consider this if we line our logic with real life analogs. That said, the new RR, doesnt have resources, not many of them but there is something that it also doesnt have. A LOT of territory! They-we(my main is romulan), dont need a huge ship honestly. Our supply lines are short, we have little to protect, relatively, and entire atk AND defense strategies have been built around the very ships the RR have created and thos are:
Small, powerful high-speed ships that employ cloaking tech.
We can decloak hit hard and recloak and as long as we do it fast enough, and hit hard enough, no one ever knows what happened. See the works of Sun Tzu and Genghis Khan. They both employed high speed attackers.
And because of our short supplylines and our small area of control, we dont need a lot of ships.
The Ar'kala is a symbol of what the RR can do even while burdened with the weight of constructing an empire.
TLDR: Yes we should have small shipyards and yes it stands to reason all we could make are ships like the Ar'kala. Fine, make THAT the flagship.
I am ok with that. Just dont let the REMAN Scimitar be the ROMULAN flagship.
Comments
And I counter that with the simple fact that, a year ago the Republic didn't even exist, and it remains the space equivalent of a Third World country.* Thanks to the Remans the Falchion-class is available, and it's a big, impressive ship, so they're using it for the time being.
* That's also a problem I have with season 8. What the heck are the Republic doing spearheading an international military campaign on the other gorram side of the galaxy when their capital consists of an embassy and a collection of tents?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I agree, their ship sizes too, they should be downsizing their ships, given how much help they supposedly need. The Cardassians are still rebuilding after merely getting their homeworld shot up. Romulus was blown out of the stars, and the Empire is busy having a civil war, D'Tan & CO just touched down on a new planet....how do they afford these massive ships?
It's called, "When our powers combine, we can make up some bull****!"
The better part is they do this in between killing each other on behalf of the Federation & Klingon Empire overseers.
What the RR needs now is......
A BLOODY ROMULAN DESIGNED FLAGSHIP!
Look at what is left of the Romulans, and their situation. They need a ship to be ready to defend them. They have the left over Tal Shiar after them, Elachi terrified them, and now the Iconia Gateway at their front door. They need something to be ready to defend what is left of them.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Prefixes don't really matter. My Romulan Tac flies an old D'deridex. That was found scuttled from a fight. The ship did belong to the Tal Shiar, however it was repaired and now used by the Republic. They just never changed the prefix. It helps add character/history to the ship.
Even my Federation Andorian ship don't use the USS prefix. I use the one you can pick from the choices.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
They hired Clara from Dr who to be the impossible shipbuilding plot hole :P *flees*
[/SIGPIC]
Meh, stop looking for logic where there is none and you'll do just fine.
But for the sake of argument - that suposed space equivalent of a Third World country, since they've made home on Dewa III has designed and commsioned:
- The "fat" triplets - Ha'nom, Ha'pax, Ha'feh and their "big momma" - the Haakona.
- The Daeinos heavy destroyer.
- The Ar'kala and Ar'kif tactical warbirds.
So 7 new designs since they founded their new home. There is no logic, but because of this, to me it's not far fetched to believe they could commison a new flagship. Heck, any of those ships could have arguably been the new RR flagship.
What I'm saying is - the flagships of the Federation and the Klingon Empire are ships commisioned in 2409. The Scimitar is more than 40 years old by now. The RR needs a 2409 ship as a flagship.
It would have been ok for the Scimitar to be the flagship if the RR was portrayed to be in such a desparate situation in game as we come to expect. But they're not, they already released 7 new ships in 2409. So why couldn't they commision a new 2409 design as their flagship.
Besides, rumor has it that there was suposed to be another RR ship serving the role of flagship, but that didn't happen. Methinks something went wrong. But again, I'm beyond looking for logic in some things in STO because some stuff simply makes no sense.
My opinion is that the Scimitar simply doesn't portray the ideals and values of the new Romulan Republic and therefore she's not that apropriate to fill the role of the flagship. And I do believe that it would be fair towards Romulan players if the Republic had a new 2409 counterpart of the KDF/Fed flagships that would make the faction on equal ground with the other 2 in regards to this.
The Ha' series of ships are from the RSE. The RR did not make them. it only seems that way because that is what they use. I have not seen anywhere on the wiki site that says those ships are of RR design. the Daenios, the Ar'kala and, the Ar'kif are the only ships the are designed solely for and by the RR.
That however does not refute your point. they DID make three new designs. any one of those can and SHOULD be at the very least be a temporary Flagship until "the pride of the Romulan Republic" can be built.
How the helll are we, as romulans suppose to be pround of our "flagship" when it is based on a ship used by a failed, flawed cloned human who lived with slaves, murdered the romulan senate and, tried and failed to take over our government with a ship designed to KILL ALL LIFE on a planet, suceeding only in fracturing our people, ALL resulting in our current civil war. Before that obsessed fool, even when our world was destroyed we would of been a united people! now look at us!
We jump and cower at the mere sighting of the Tal Shiar. The Elachi are encroaching into our space, the iconians think they can wipe us aside. The fed want us under their belt and the klingons think we are too weak to matter, with each one keeping the other out of OUR backyard!
And in this time of hardship, we cant even build our own gorram flagship, we have to have it handed to us by those we used to call slave!
I have nothing aganist the Remans. Let them have their freedom AND THEIR FLAGSHIP!
I am not saying we shouldnt use their ships but the Romulan people deserve a Romulan Flagship with which to soar into a Romulan future!!
Hear is an idea:
A Not-so-huge, Romulan Flagship with a dropping forward sweped wing attached to a steamlined delta style body. Designed to use Beam arrays, with the nacelles attached at the point where the wings and body meet and slightly below that point on short pylons. something longer than it is wide. Hell Id even design it myself if they want.....
D'ridthau says hi
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
The Ha' series predated the fouding for the Republic, otherwise they wouldn't be part of the Romulan Flotilla that predates the founding of the RR.
This might simply mean that all the examples of this class ended up in the hands of of the "rebellious" faction within the Romulan Empire.
Ignoring the players who fly them, we only see a handful of them at any given time so there are probably just a few of them around.
I'd hazard a guess here and say the RSE decided not to build more of them and just churned out more D'Ds and refit them.
To build new and large ships the RR needs not only the raw materials and refineries to turn them into construction materials but also factories and shipyards large enough to hold the frame.
Since the RR decided to make its home away from the core worlds of the RSE, where the shipyards would be located, for reasons of security, the probably don't have a facilities to build big ships. That would explain why all the newer ones are comparatively small.
Before the appearance of the Scimitar and its cousins as playable ships, there was a speculation thread where we came up with a compromise solution that would allow the RR to get its hands on a new, big and non-Scimitar flagship that the RSE doesn't have:
THE VAULT
The RSE abandoned it and its research. So the idea was to have the RR search through the Vault and find an unfinished prototype advanced warbird in a hidden shipyard they can complete in a few months time
But I've got to say that thanks to bunansa's "Romulan designs for ROMULANS" line, which is shy of jumping up and shouting "Heil Romulaner!", I seriously hope Cryptic never picks up this idea.
pretty sure in naval tradition that is the case.
so that would make any ship "the player" uses is a flagship from level 40 upwards, since that's were you become an admiral.
Yep, but these are the STO forums.
Here people come up with absurd definitins of what is what and claim this is how it's in real life. And when they get told -and proven- it's the opposite of RL the response is "STFU, this is Star Trek!"...which probably means it's trans-reality-fantasy-SF that must follow their definition of what's right.
At no point has there ever been a Dedicated Flagship for a species, each race/faction chooses a ship based on the ideals of the current leadership, so depending on who is in charge it could be a cruiser during one reign, and a carrier during the next.
If anyone can name me a DEDICATED FLAGSHIP in any Startrek or in Star Trek Online, if you can show us any such specific vessel then I see no reason why they cant have Flagships in STO.
Right I have my flame Retardant Suit on so, Please Flame Away.
It could be argued that because the ship called "Enterprise" has always been the FED flagship for.......A LONG TIME, the last 150 years at least...and the enterprise is always one of if not THE most advances, largest, newest ship(at time of its construction)in the fleet other than the class namesake, it stands to reason that these ship were built with the understanding that they would indeed be flagships. Ships BUILT TO BE FLAGSHIPS.
While yes, it IS true that any naval vessel with a leading flag officer is a/the flagship, the term "flagship" isnt given to just ANYTHING. Imagine if you will:
"Hmmmm i have a two carriers, 5 destroyers, 3 subs, and 4 battleships....," thinks the commanding admiral as he began to choose his flagship, "all these are great ships but, gimme a row boat, a radio and a rifle! The row boat will be my flagship since i am on that!"
-_- really? Seriously? a row boat can be a Flagship? by the logic of others.....yea it can be.
B.
S.
The Enterprise series of ships have ALWAYS been ship that embody the best of starfleet both in personnel and Ideals, commanded by the best of captains with the highest of honor......except that Enterprise B captain....he was a moron.
The only time A new Enterprise was made was when the previous ship was too old to continue or destroyed. The FED flagship has ALWAYS been the pride of their fleet. same with the KDF.
The Excelsior class
The Ambassador class
The Galaxy Class
The Sovereign Class
The Odyssey Class
ALL were DESIGNED to be FLAGSHIPS. The Nevgar, the new KDF flag whos name escapes me, DESIGNED to be flagships.
What do Romulans get? A ship DESIGNED to be the villain and kill planets.....
How bloody fair is that? All we Romulans want is a Romulan ship designed to be a flagship, like everyone else....
I'd like to see your evidence that these ships were designed as flagships because I can't find any. Neither was any USS Enterprise beyond the D ever called flagship in dialogue.
Oh, BTW what did Martok (the real one) use as his flagship? The Rotarren and, when that one was damaged, the Ch'tang. Both are Birds of Prey.
On design, see remarks made by real world designers of the ships. first off, 1701 and 1701-A were both Flagships. 1701-B, an Excelsior class, called the "Queen of Space, a Super Starship"
(http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Excelsior_class)
The Ambassador Class was designed to look like a cross between, or step between, the excelsior and the galaxy. While little is known about her, it is reasonable to assume she is a flagship. (will explain shortly.)
As for Martok and the rotarran as his flagship, Yes, it was a flagship but only of THAT kdf fleet, not the entire fdf. Considering he couldnt of been at the first battle of chintoka with the Rotarren(it would of been destroyed with the rest of the fleet) we cant be sure he intended on that remaining his flagship. But we DO know Martok himself was there, he can be herd during the episode. It stands to reason the Rotarran is/was at least a temporary Flagship OR only the flagship for the Ninth fleet, not the entire KDF. It maybe worth noting that while never the Starfleet Flagship, the NX-74205 (Defiant) was the flagship of the FED 2nd fleet.
(http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/IKS_Rotarran)
Now, about the Enterprise, Considering NX-01's actions, that it was an important factor during founding the the federation, and considering Admiral Pike's comment that 1701 was the "New Flagship" it can also be argued that although never stated, the Enterprise series of ships were always the flagship for Starfleet in its entirety. While yes, i admit this is an alternate universe reference, there is nothing to discount it in the prime universe. In fact, considering the elation of many who were assigned to the various enterprises, their respect for the ships goes to suggest that at the enterprise is the flagship.
As a note, it CAN be confirmed that 1701-D and as its replacement most likely 1701-E, was indeed the Starfleet flagship.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701-D%29
Now, i will admit this is all speculation however, it is all logical, sound speculation. There is also no evidence to disprove any of it, in fact if even vague, there is much to SUGGEST it.
Considering 1701-F is the in game flagship, the Odyssey Class given to players, and the the KDF flagship which was also given to players, are both ships which are built by their respective owners, it is also resonable to think Romulan players would want a ship built by romulans to be their flagship.
Also: look at FED and KDF Flagships:
Galaxy-X
Odyssey
Jupiter
Bortas
VoQuv (can it be considered a Flagship ?)
none of this is as powerful as the scimitar, in both: game and movies.
Romulan Flotilla used the Ha'Apex as flagship when they fought against the Tal'Shiar, whose flagship was the Scimitar.
HOWEVER: I always imagined the romulan flagship as a gigantic D'Deridex with 2 pairs of scimitar's wings *_*
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It was, but the issue is the new flagships. The Galaxy and Negh'var were flagships, but have been replaced with the Odyssey and Bortas'qu respectively. Romulans would like a more Romulan-esque flagship in a similar vein, as a 3-pack, instead of the Scimitar, which is a Reman-esque design. However, the Ha'apax/Haakona is suitable as a flagship imo. Also, as mentioned by shinzonisback, it's the most powerful so that counts for something.
I would indeed admit that the Scimitar is undoubtedly Shinzon's Flagship. But that is part of the problem considering his origins and what he stands for. The Scimitar is an extention of Shinzon and his upbringing. A ship whos sole purpose is to destory, and it does so excellently. Dont get me wrong, i dont think it is a bad ship, hell even i have one, But simply because its the biggest dakka beast the roms have doesnt mean it should be the flagship. Especially if it fails to represent the romulan people. How does a REMAN ship do that? By all means, let the Scimitar be the Reman flagship. They are going to break away at some point anyway.
As for the Ha'apax, i could except that only to a point, you see, that ship(at least in my experience) has no firepower, turns horribly, and was designed by the RSE not the RR.
Granted it is BIG, it is ROMULAN, and it is used as a the current RR flag. it is just SO lackluster. if they were to re-release the ship as a 3-pack, I would be all for it.
Honestly i must thank you for bringing that up however, i doubt cryptic will redo a ship. They havent yet have they? Wouldnt they just make another?
Hey Cryptic......i said id design it, draw it up.....i DO have ideas....
These points are what I want to address. D'Tan is a unificationist. If anything the story so far shows that the Romulans do NOT have the resources to design an entirely new vessel from the ground up. A modern refit(Falchion) of the Reman symbol of liberation(Scimitar), by the new RR serves well to show a united front with new beginnings.
Addressing the point about the Ha'apax, if it cannot be accepted because it is lackluster, why can't the Scimi be accepted because it's so good?
I love good deabtes! lol
Just a disclaimer: at no time will i flip out and get all pissed off, We are all adults and can discuss this like adults if i have rubbed anyone the wrong way, say so.... and im sorry.
That said, The RR does, can and has designed and built at least 2 ships from the ground up so yes they can build their own flagship.
Ar'kala
Ar'kif
Daenios.....(not sure on this one.)
Next. i personally find it hard to see the Scimitar, i Superweapon of Mass Dakka capable of stripping the life off entire worlds a symbol for liberation..... was the Romulan Senate "Liberated?" I Scimitar is a WARSHIP and a DAMN good one. But it symbolized the brutality of its creators. Granted, Romulans made them that way by enslaving them....
The Scimitar says, quite loudly in fact, "We done being your slaves and we arent going to take it anymore! We will kill you ALL if we have to." It is also NOT a romulan ship. It is Reman. Now i admit a lot of what i just said IS conjecture however, it IS reman, it IS a warship and, it DOES has a superweapon the can kill all life on a planet. It just doesn't sing coom-by-ya while hold the paws of kittens now does it?
Also, i am not saying the Scimitar isnt "flagship" worthy. Just not ROMULAN FLAGSHIP worthy. Let the Remans have it. If the are trying to show a united front allow the designing of the New Flagship be a joint venture, not the strickly Reman designed Dakka monster.
Edit: How about a compromise? Keep the Scimitar but give it a new skin? that way the skin can be like a new ship, it wouldnt give the Romulans another bad TRIBBLE ship but WOULD give a Romulan version of it. Kinda like? we see your reman scimitar and raise you a ROMULAN scimitar.
Or People HAVE been asking for a two deck frigate launching Rom Carrier. Make one of those and then make THAT the flagship. kind of like the DD in Boff layout with 3 tac consoles 4 eng and 2 sci with the fleet version getting a 3rd sci console. So....like the DD only a carrier. and a 6-7 turn rate. ....the side of the Haapax but long not wide...
[For simplicity I'll consider a "battleship" to mean the same as a "mighty flagship" in my post]
Several nations in history that easily managed to build destroyers and cruisers didn't build battleships...or only one or two.
The reason is that with size the complexity of the ship and cost increase a lot.
The design phase alone takes much longer, building it takes about 50% longer than a heavy cruiser and the cost increases roughly by the same factor as tonnage does.
Building and commisioning a Fletcher class destroyer took about 6 months, a Baltimore cruiser a bit more than 20 months and an Iowa battleship a bit more than 30 months.
And that is assuming you have a shipyard on hand that is large enough to construct the ship and an entire industry to build all the needed parts in time. Otherwise you need to build all that as well. Hence trowing out a destroyer is, by comparison, pretty easy. Building something much much bigger is a hughe pain in the butt; literally.:)
That was what I was going for with the Falchion bit, but I figure that might be seen as not Romulan enough as well, given the only slight variation in the 3 Scimi models.
You're right about the Arkif, Arkala and Daeinos, however as pointed out by misterde3 above, it's much easier, and makes more sense, for the RR to design ships like these.
Sidenote: Love that Admiral Jarok's daughter is captain of the RR flagship. Also, yes it's nice to have a discussion on the internet without mudslinging kudos to you sir
I say yes to a proper Flag for RR
The thing with the falchion is.....it is STILL reman...Now if we were to go with me "reskin" idea, i think it should look NOTHING like the scimitar. I am talking about smooth green bird-like lines that flow. It should look as fast as the E-E, and graceful as the DD and as Romulan as....Something extremely romulan....lol
These are points a logical debate in this situation cant deny. youre both right, however, I take this to mean this if anything, the current RR flagship should be an Ar'Kala. (its the newest ship between it and the Ar'kif) I wouldnt be oppose to this idea.
if we are looking at a fledgling country, empire, government, what-have-you, we must consider this if we line our logic with real life analogs. That said, the new RR, doesnt have resources, not many of them but there is something that it also doesnt have. A LOT of territory! They-we(my main is romulan), dont need a huge ship honestly. Our supply lines are short, we have little to protect, relatively, and entire atk AND defense strategies have been built around the very ships the RR have created and thos are:
Small, powerful high-speed ships that employ cloaking tech.
We can decloak hit hard and recloak and as long as we do it fast enough, and hit hard enough, no one ever knows what happened. See the works of Sun Tzu and Genghis Khan. They both employed high speed attackers.
And because of our short supplylines and our small area of control, we dont need a lot of ships.
The Ar'kala is a symbol of what the RR can do even while burdened with the weight of constructing an empire.
TLDR: Yes we should have small shipyards and yes it stands to reason all we could make are ships like the Ar'kala. Fine, make THAT the flagship.
I am ok with that. Just dont let the REMAN Scimitar be the ROMULAN flagship.