People are getting way too wrapped up in the technicalities and plot contrivances and utterly missing the simple heart of the matter.
Put simply:
Both the Klingons and the Federation have an original design, three-pack cruiser that serves as their iconic ship for STO, called "flagships" for the sake of simplicity, however incorrectly.
Yeah I'd like a new ship to be the formal flagship of the Republic, not dissimilar to the Scimitar, but with sleeker lines, less a blunt instrument and more the sort of deadly grace that defines a warbird.
That is what chrisbrown12009 and I have been saying. We have been arguing with someone else that seems to think we shouldn't have a faction at all. Let alone starships and flagships.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
i cant believe this, Sela had the same thing D'tan had when he left, a fleet of ships.
This was in response to my list of points about what the Roms have been through. Recieving aid from even the two major powers in wartime no less, cannot make up for 30 decades of peacetime Federation aid, in one year. The True way was enough of a threat to have all 3 factions hunting them, while taking just 75 of the Cardies old ships. In all this time the Cardassians had no replicators? Or didn't have shipyards?
Also, assuming the rest of us know nothing about politics is insulting, simply because we disagree with your assessment of the situation. Using your example, the Jouret System, if it was really that important, and if they did not need Federation aid, why was the biggest threat "serious reconsideration of the alliance" (paraphrasing) vs outright "we will no longer be allies and will give our full support to the KDF". The latter is a much bigger threat, would show more clearly the independence of the RR, and would put the UFP on it's toes with the threat of exclusive technology going to the KDF.
Secondly,
I didnt write to story, and seeing how i cant turn back time and write in myself, fill all plot holes, just what can i blood do. Whether I LIKE IT or not, it is what it is.
In reply to capnkirk you seem to sweep under the rug the inconsistencies of the plot, saying that what it should be is not in debate, while at the same time, debating what the flagship should be. This is kinda the same principle here, there's something off, and it should be corrected(if what i get your view of the current flagship is correct).
@ jexsamx They do, the Scimitar is a 3-pack that is not only comparable, but more powerful than the other two.
This was in response to my list of points about what the Roms have been through. Recieving aid from even the two major powers in wartime no less, cannot make up for 30 decades of peacetime Federation aid, in one year. The True way was enough of a threat to have all 3 factions hunting them, while taking just 75 of the Cardies old ships. In all this time the Cardassians had no replicators? Or didn't have shipyards?
Also, assuming the rest of us know nothing about politics is insulting, simply because we disagree with your assessment of the situation. Using your example, the Jouret System, if it was really that important, and if they did not need Federation aid, why was the biggest threat "serious reconsideration of the alliance" (paraphrasing) vs outright "we will no longer be allies and will give our full support to the KDF". The latter is a much bigger threat, would show more clearly the independence of the RR, and would put the UFP on it's toes with the threat of exclusive technology going to the KDF.
Secondly,
In reply to capnkirk you seem to sweep under the rug the inconsistencies of the plot, saying that what it should be is not in debate, while at the same time, debating what the flagship should be. This is kinda the same principle here, there's something off, and it should be corrected(if what i get your view of the current flagship is correct).
@ jexsamx They do, the Scimitar is a 3-pack that is not only comparable, but more powerful than the other two.
Actually the point mentioned is that there must be something we are not seeing that is stopping the cardassians. Not seeing it is not the same as poor writing, since it isn't written at all to my knowledge.
The plot actually seems to be very consistent if examined. Just because it is not ideal from some angles does not make it inconsistent. (And by some angles I refer to some wish the RR were not the romulans we have but that we got to play the back stabbing intrigue heavy RSE. Or that we remain hidden rebels on an ice world till the RSE sent some walker to come hunt us down so we could fight those in shuttles. Etc.) From the story written it holds water. It just isn't what everyone wants.
The problem is the debate for this thread got sidetracked by hows and politics when the request is for a different ship to be used as the Flagship of the Republic.
I hope that clears things a little.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Actually the point mentioned is that there must be something we are not seeing that is stopping the cardassians. Not seeing it is not the same as poor writing, since it isn't written at all to my knowledge.
The plot actually seems to be very consistent if examined. Just because it is not ideal from some angles does not make it inconsistent. (And by some angles I refer to some wish the RR were not the romulans we have but that we got to play the back stabbing intrigue heavy RSE. Or that we remain hidden rebels on an ice world till the RSE sent some walker to come hunt us down so we could fight those in shuttles. Etc.) From the story written it holds water. It just isn't what everyone wants.
The problem is the debate for this thread got sidetracked by hows and politics when the request is for a different ship to be used as the Flagship of the Republic.
I hope that clears things a little.
It does, but doesn't make me agree. I don't have a problem with the RR's characterization, or the story progression so much as it's timing. It doesn't fit with the inherited history from various novels, comics, etc. Jumping from refugee to interstellar power in one year is quite farfetched. If perhaps they had discarded some of that history and set the first campaign mission to maybe 20 years ago or even 7 years ago or something, that would make a whole lot more sense. To clarify what I'm saying again, why is the story not being to everyone's liking ok, but not having a flagship to everyone's liking not ok?
@ jexsamx They do, the Scimitar is a 3-pack that is not only comparable, but more powerful than the other two.
It is not comparable.
Scimitar is not a cruiser
Scimitar is not a unique, original design
Scimitar does not have an original bridge design
Scimitar does not have a slightly inferior freebie version available
Scimitar lacks a detachable pet (hangars aren't quite the same)
I even spelled this out as plainly and simply as I could in my last post, yet somehow, miraculously, you still managed to utterly miss it.
About the only things it has in common with the flagship three-packs, it has in common with all the other three-packs, too. That being a console set with bonuses and tac/eng/sci variants.
I think having a Romulan flagship would be a good idea...perhaps a player design competition similar to the one for the fed design... It would invigorate the player base I think. That being said I think we need have a some romulan science ships added before we get into more cruisers. Another option is to give them a cmder universal since the romulans seemed to prefer to mass produce one type of ship and purpose them all to different ability.
This was seen clearly with the D'deridex class in TNG and DS9.
I think having a Romulan flagship would be a good idea...perhaps a player design competition similar to the one for the fed design... It would invigorate the player base I think. That being said I think we need have a some romulan science ships added before we get into more cruisers. Another option is to give them a cmder universal since the romulans seemed to prefer to mass produce one type of ship and purpose them all to different ability.
This was seen clearly with the D'deridex class in TNG and DS9.
A design contest would be cool. I wasn't around for the first one what went into it?
Also RR can't say more cruisers since technically they have no cruisers. (No cruiser abilities) I do however agree RR needs some science. (I kinda thought that was going to be the Romulan leaning. Feds had a lot of engineering cruisers and a dabbling of science and tactical. Klingons had tactical with a dabbling of engineering and a dash of science. So Romulans would be Science and a a dabbling of engineering with a dash of tactical.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Scimitar does not have a slightly inferior freebie version available
Scimitar lacks a detachable pet (hangars aren't quite the same)
I even spelled this out as plainly and simply as I could in my last post, yet somehow, miraculously, you still managed to utterly miss it.
About the only things it has in common with the flagship three-packs, it has in common with all the other three-packs, too. That being a console set with bonuses and tac/eng/sci variants.
Any new flagship will be similarly constructed stat-wise:
The Romulan ships bar the borgified and temporal have a sing core. So a new ship would not come with a warp core anyway and will not be classified as a cruiser.
Not a cryptic original but pretty unique
True here, regardless of whether they change the flagship or not they need to give us a unique bridge!
Agreed, no freebie version. Hopefully we'll get something in the anniversary? (longshot though >.<)
I would say the hangar is better actually, gives you at least some control over the things, and it doesnt use up a console slot
Why is it that people keep forgetting the simple fact that the romulan empire before hobus was large. The Hobus supernova didn't destroy every planet in the romulan empire, and as we all know the empire liked to keep an iron grip on its territory they would have had a fleet large enough and powerful enough to patrol it as well as the neutral zone.
Also remember that it was only by bringing in the romulans during the dominion war that the federation and the klingon empire prevented their guaranteed distruction. When the Hobus supernova happened, it gave the Klingons an opportunity to expand, but even then they would not have been able to conquer the fractured romulan empire.
It's true that the klingons or the federation might have been able to swat New Romulus, but in doing so they would hand the rebels supporters right to the Tal Shiar and effectively galvanize and restore the Romulan Empire. The Klingons might have been able to garner some territory but it wouldn't benefit them as then they would be facing a two front war against effectively equal powers and it would be the end of the Empire as that would give the Gorn and Orions and Naussicans a chance to rebel and reclaim their independance.
Now as for the Scimitar, any idiot that believes that the romulan military would not have swooped into Remus and scavenged everything they could have on the Scimitars designs and built their own is false (I do agree they might have changed the aesthetic.) But the reality was that the ship was a successful design for military purposes, I don't see them changing much. Most likely getting rid of the thalaron device (But then again, the Tal Shiar might not have).
Its a fitting dreadnought for them. Especially for a new romulan faction, by using the Scimitar as a flagship it gives them power on the cheap. Remember, the romulan republic is extremely young, It is likely they would replace the Scimitar as the flagship down the line, but its a waste of resources to do so this early. They are better off doing it after they have completely defeated the Tal Shiar and reformed the Empires remnants into a true powerful republic. Its 2409, maybe when its like 2420 they can revisit the flagship. Maybe Refit the Scimitar into a true Romulan looking warbird. Let's not forget that the Odyssey and the Bortas still don't match the actual canon stats of the Scimitar for Strength and Power, let alone actual size. Though I will say I find it wierd that the Klingons never revisited the ability to fire while cloaked, especially when they again went to war against the federation.
Side note, anyone ever threw a Romulan set on it? Part of what makes it so different from normal warbirds aside from the design is the all black as well...might look more traditionally Romulan with that.
I keep hearing "flagship" used in by people who apparently have absolutely no idea what a flagship actually is. A flagship is not the "icon of (insert nation here)."
A Flagship is a ship that is in command of; a division, a squadron, a task group, a task force(bigger version of a task group), and/or an entire fleet. That said what makes that ship the commanding ship and thus the Flagship is that it carries a; Commodore, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, or Admiral. That person is the "flag officer" who commands what ever force as mentioned above, the ship they operate from is the flagship, where they have their flag bridge. Since top ranks are admiral ranks, every teir 5 ship is a freaking flagship. That is the definition of a flagship. That means that the designation of flagship is meaningless here anyways. Because everyone is flying their own flagship. Which is doubly ignorant because flag officers do not command their flagship, the flag captain commands the flagship.
Basically: Flag officer is responsible for all ships in his command, he tells them where to go and what their mission is. The captains are each responsible for their own ships, including the flag captain, thus how they complete the mission, and how they get there on the individual scale.
Any new flagship will be similarly constructed stat-wise:
The Romulan ships bar the borgified and temporal have a sing core. So a new ship would not come with a warp core anyway and will not be classified as a cruiser.
Not a cryptic original but pretty unique
True here, regardless of whether they change the flagship or not they need to give us a unique bridge!
Agreed, no freebie version. Hopefully we'll get something in the anniversary? (longshot though >.<)
I would say the hangar is better actually, gives you at least some control over the things, and it doesnt use up a console slot
Okay, I'll play ball.
If you want to be pedantic about it, then yes, it wouldn't technically be classified as a Cruiser. But I don't see anyone saying that the Ha'apax doesn't play like a cruiser aside from the addition og SingPowers. So fine, to get incredibly specific: A Romulan "flasgship" should be designed to play as if it were a cruiser, with the low turn rate, number of device slots, console layout, and requisite Cmdr BOff slot that entails.
If it isn't a Cryptic original then it does not meet the criteria, no matter how independantly unique the design is.
In hindsight the freebie version point is probably the most likely to be dropped if they ever do release a proper Romulan Flagship 3-pack.
The relative usefulness is irrelevant. The important part is that it has a detachable pet.
People are getting way too wrapped up in the technicalities and plot contrivances and utterly missing the simple heart of the matter.
Put simply:
Both the Klingons and the Federation have an original design, three-pack cruiser that serves as their iconic ship for STO, called "flagships" for the sake of simplicity, however incorrectly.
I keep hearing "flagship" used in by people who apparently have absolutely no idea what a flagship actually is. A flagship is not the "icon of (insert nation here)."
A Flagship is a ship that is in command of; a division, a squadron, a task group, a task force(bigger version of a task group), and/or an entire fleet. That said what makes that ship the commanding ship and thus the Flagship is that it carries a; Commodore, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, or Admiral. That person is the "flag officer" who commands what ever force as mentioned above, the ship they operate from is the flagship, where they have their flag bridge. Since top ranks are admiral ranks, every teir 5 ship is a freaking flagship. That is the definition of a flagship. That means that the designation of flagship is meaningless here anyways. Because everyone is flying their own flagship. Which is doubly ignorant because flag officers do not command their flagship, the flag captain commands the flagship.
Basically: Flag officer is responsible for all ships in his command, he tells them where to go and what their mission is. The captains are each responsible for their own ships, including the flag captain, thus how they complete the mission, and how they get there on the individual scale.
we all know this....at least i do. What you have said is all truth in the realm of real life naval protocol. But this is a bloody game, set in a genre(sci-fi in general) where the "Flagship" IS the "pride of who/what ever" and in that, the list is long.
Enterprise
Defiant
White Star 1
Black Star
Home One
Intimidator
Eclipse
In someway, each of these ships where the embodiment of those who used them. They were symbols of the people who served on them. The crews where considered the best of the best but more than that, When one thought of the BEST ship from a certain place or people, THIS (the flagship) was the ship they thought of.
In STO, when one thinks of the ship that symbolizes the FEDs, the Odyssey closes up, for the KDF, their flagship closes up. (i forget class name.) They are ships built by the owners, symbolizing the owners....
The romulans should get that same, not a ship copied from others.
I absolutely agree that the Scimitar is a bad symbol for the romulan republic as it symbolises terror, aggression and war. A new design should be used for a flagship that rather symbolises science and unity. Maybe a collaboration with Vulcan could be the way to go for the design.
I absolutely agree that the Scimitar is a bad symbol for the romulan republic as it symbolises terror, aggression and war. A new design should be used for a flagship that rather symbolises science and unity. Maybe a collaboration with Vulcan could be the way to go for the design.
Except that isn't remotely close to what the Romulan Republic is about. The Republic is about breaking free of the Tal'Shiar and providing a safe haven from those amoral Iconian pawns. Keep in mind that the Republic is by no means any Federation. D'Tan for that matter is playing both sides (The Klingon Empire and United Federation of Planets) against the middle for profit to the Republic.
The Scimitar makes a fine symbol of the Republic. It's huge eagle-like wings fit perfectly with raptor/bird of prey model that Romulans style their ship after. It's original intention is also quite noble, as it the intent was for the Remans to throw off the oppression, and tyranny of the Romulan Star Empire. Which is the same ideal the Republic adheres to.
Now with that being said, and to get away from playing the devil's advocate. As much as I'd like to see a more unique set of ships take it's place... It's overall might makes it a nice ship for the fleet to stand on. If they do decide to change it, it's over all power will make it stick as one of the most common ships used by Romulan players.
I have a different perception of the republic and D'Tan then. D'Tan (influenced by Spock) rather seemed to me as rational and considerably less scheming than former Romulan leaders.
I always thought of the involvement of the Iconians & their pawns rather incidental as the republic was founded before knowledge about them.
And as far as the Tal'Shiar and the former romulan empire goes, THEY already made the scimitar their symbol, look at Sela's flagship.
I have a different perception of the republic and D'Tan then. D'Tan (influenced by Spock) rather seemed to me as rational and considerably less scheming than former Romulan leaders.
I always thought of the involvement of the Iconians & their pawns rather incidental as the republic was founded before knowledge about them.
And as far as the Tal'Shiar and the former romulan empire goes, THEY already made the scimitar their symbol, look at Sela's flagship.
For the record, I found another Tal Shiar Scimitar.
There is a fleet of D'Ds and a command Scimitar you fly past on your way to the beacon.
You can get target on them but are not allowed to shoot at them and they don't move. But they are there.
(Right side, close to the planet.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Here's the trick: The R.R.W. Lleiset isn't a Scimitar! It's a Falchion-class So even if for some folks the Scimitar is symbolic of a madman's administration (which it isn't, but can't argue with the unreasonable), the Republic's flagship isn't a Scimitar anyway. AND a Romulan is in command, so you can keep that one.
That aside, some folks have pointed out that the Scimitar's a cool symbol of the Reman struggle, and the Romulan Republic is inclusive to Remans, whereas the Star Empire still considers them 2nd-class citizens.
It makes perfect sense that they'd choose a Reman-originated design to lead the fleet.
And of course there are Tal Shiar Scimitars floating around, because those jerks would have no qualms about exploiting the designs of the people they oppress.
If you want to be pedantic about it, then yes, it wouldn't technically be classified as a Cruiser. But I don't see anyone saying that the Ha'apax doesn't play like a cruiser aside from the addition og SingPowers. So fine, to get incredibly specific: A Romulan "flasgship" should be designed to play as if it were a cruiser, with the low turn rate, number of device slots, console layout, and requisite Cmdr BOff slot that entails.
If it isn't a Cryptic original then it does not meet the criteria, no matter how independantly unique the design is.
In hindsight the freebie version point is probably the most likely to be dropped if they ever do release a proper Romulan Flagship 3-pack.
The relative usefulness is irrelevant. The important part is that it has a detachable pet.
What did I just say on the last page?
Seriously you're waaaay overthinking this.
True enough though, it doesn't have a Cmdr Eng slot.
I don't see why it must be a Cryptic original, or must have a detachable part, if you're willing to give up on being a complete cruiser, with warp core etc. It's different, but comparable in those areas (i.e. being unique and having combat pets).
Hmm, maybe that could be an idea though. Trade the hangar for a detachable part.
Looking at the top there I could see those random little struts having little nacelles on 'em.
EDIT: That Dyson warbird is lookin sexy! Except for maybe the Fed one, the ships are looking great, the Rom one is definitely the best looking of the bunch.
Are we REALLy still having this discussion? I mean really, do you think they are listening at Cryptic/PWE Look at the poor Federation, stuck with the Oddy, Commanded by that clown, oops I mean capt. Shon.( Lower case intentional. )
It's like this. I am the hero of The Romulan Republic. I am the discoverer of New Romulus. Whatever ship I command IS the Flagship of the Romulan Republic. That is my Legacy.
Are we REALLy still having this discussion? I mean really, do you think they are listening at Cryptic/PWE Look at the poor Federation, stuck with the Oddy, Commanded by that clown, oops I mean capt. Shon.( Lower case intentional. )
It's like this. I am the hero of The Romulan Republic. I am the discoverer of New Romulus. Whatever ship I command IS the Flagship of the Romulan Republic. That is my Legacy.
You didn't discover Ne Romulus. I did!
Seriously though. the only reason we don't get the 'flagship' for ourselves is then there would be 90 Enterprises out there.
So I shall paraphrase a signature I liked.
The flagship gets all the easy missions. We get the important ones. (or weird ones case depending.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Why is it that people keep forgetting the simple fact that the romulan empire before hobus was large. The Hobus supernova didn't destroy every planet in the romulan empire, and as we all know the empire liked to keep an iron grip on its territory they would have had a fleet large enough and powerful enough to patrol it as well as the neutral zone.
Also remember that it was only by bringing in the romulans during the dominion war that the federation and the klingon empire prevented their guaranteed distruction. When the Hobus supernova happened, it gave the Klingons an opportunity to expand, but even then they would not have been able to conquer the fractured romulan empire.
It's true that the klingons or the federation might have been able to swat New Romulus, but in doing so they would hand the rebels supporters right to the Tal Shiar and effectively galvanize and restore the Romulan Empire. The Klingons might have been able to garner some territory but it wouldn't benefit them as then they would be facing a two front war against effectively equal powers and it would be the end of the Empire as that would give the Gorn and Orions and Naussicans a chance to rebel and reclaim their independance.
Now as for the Scimitar, any idiot that believes that the romulan military would not have swooped into Remus and scavenged everything they could have on the Scimitars designs and built their own is false (I do agree they might have changed the aesthetic.) But the reality was that the ship was a successful design for military purposes, I don't see them changing much. Most likely getting rid of the thalaron device (But then again, the Tal Shiar might not have).
Its a fitting dreadnought for them. Especially for a new romulan faction, by using the Scimitar as a flagship it gives them power on the cheap. Remember, the romulan republic is extremely young, It is likely they would replace the Scimitar as the flagship down the line, but its a waste of resources to do so this early. They are better off doing it after they have completely defeated the Tal Shiar and reformed the Empires remnants into a true powerful republic. Its 2409, maybe when its like 2420 they can revisit the flagship. Maybe Refit the Scimitar into a true Romulan looking warbird. Let's not forget that the Odyssey and the Bortas still don't match the actual canon stats of the Scimitar for Strength and Power, let alone actual size. Though I will say I find it wierd that the Klingons never revisited the ability to fire while cloaked, especially when they again went to war against the federation.
Why would the Orions want to rebel and reclaim their independence? They're already in control of the Klingon Empire, and they weren't conquered by the Klingons, but willingly united with the Klingon Empire.
I absolutely agree that the Scimitar is a bad symbol for the romulan republic as it symbolises terror, aggression and war. A new design should be used for a flagship that rather symbolises science and unity. Maybe a collaboration with Vulcan could be the way to go for the design.
Collaborate with the arrogant and prejudiced Vulcans while they continue their condescending behavior? The Vulcans need to come to terms with the fact that they are far from perfect, and the fact that they need emotion in order to be whole. Then we'll talk.
Are we REALLy still having this discussion? I mean really, do you think they are listening at Cryptic/PWE Look at the poor Federation, stuck with the Oddy, Commanded by that clown, oops I mean capt. Shon.( Lower case intentional. )
It's like this. I am the hero of The Romulan Republic. I am the discoverer of New Romulus. Whatever ship I command IS the Flagship of the Romulan Republic. That is my Legacy.
Unless you're allowed to romance Captain Jarok. :P Then it's the strongest Romulan duo.
SOOOOOO this. Yes the scimmie IS powerful as all getout. but it is ugly as sin and looks nothing like a romulan ship.
I agree.
I've never cared for the scimitar's appearance. As a one-off badass mega-ship in not one of the better Star Trek films, it was ok. But I've never looked at it and thought "That looks Romulan."
If anything I'd say its reminiscent of the Imperial Shuttle from Star Wars. It has the same flat hull and lower wings, just not the dorsal fin.
I've also never thought, "I want to fly one of those." The only circumstances under which I'd get them is if I was drowning in dilithium, they were on sale, and I felt like completing my collection of Romulan ships.
It would be a little bit sad if we're stuck with them as our flagship. Would be nice to have something more properly Romulan. But personally I'm more interested in getting some sci warbirds.
I would suggest making something that signifies the Republic's seeking to make amends for the sins of the past by a new design that is Romulan but perhaps also has some Reman influence to it.
I will say this. The new Dyson Ship (the romulan one) looks AWESOME. I cant wait to get one. It will be my fleet's flagship. Its too cool looking not to be.
Comments
Put simply:
The Romulan faction deserves a comparable ship.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
This was in response to my list of points about what the Roms have been through. Recieving aid from even the two major powers in wartime no less, cannot make up for 30 decades of peacetime Federation aid, in one year. The True way was enough of a threat to have all 3 factions hunting them, while taking just 75 of the Cardies old ships. In all this time the Cardassians had no replicators? Or didn't have shipyards?
Also, assuming the rest of us know nothing about politics is insulting, simply because we disagree with your assessment of the situation. Using your example, the Jouret System, if it was really that important, and if they did not need Federation aid, why was the biggest threat "serious reconsideration of the alliance" (paraphrasing) vs outright "we will no longer be allies and will give our full support to the KDF". The latter is a much bigger threat, would show more clearly the independence of the RR, and would put the UFP on it's toes with the threat of exclusive technology going to the KDF.
Secondly,
In reply to capnkirk you seem to sweep under the rug the inconsistencies of the plot, saying that what it should be is not in debate, while at the same time, debating what the flagship should be. This is kinda the same principle here, there's something off, and it should be corrected(if what i get your view of the current flagship is correct).
@ jexsamx They do, the Scimitar is a 3-pack that is not only comparable, but more powerful than the other two.
Actually the point mentioned is that there must be something we are not seeing that is stopping the cardassians. Not seeing it is not the same as poor writing, since it isn't written at all to my knowledge.
The plot actually seems to be very consistent if examined. Just because it is not ideal from some angles does not make it inconsistent. (And by some angles I refer to some wish the RR were not the romulans we have but that we got to play the back stabbing intrigue heavy RSE. Or that we remain hidden rebels on an ice world till the RSE sent some walker to come hunt us down so we could fight those in shuttles. Etc.) From the story written it holds water. It just isn't what everyone wants.
The problem is the debate for this thread got sidetracked by hows and politics when the request is for a different ship to be used as the Flagship of the Republic.
I hope that clears things a little.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
It does, but doesn't make me agree. I don't have a problem with the RR's characterization, or the story progression so much as it's timing. It doesn't fit with the inherited history from various novels, comics, etc. Jumping from refugee to interstellar power in one year is quite farfetched. If perhaps they had discarded some of that history and set the first campaign mission to maybe 20 years ago or even 7 years ago or something, that would make a whole lot more sense. To clarify what I'm saying again, why is the story not being to everyone's liking ok, but not having a flagship to everyone's liking not ok?
It is not comparable.
I even spelled this out as plainly and simply as I could in my last post, yet somehow, miraculously, you still managed to utterly miss it.
About the only things it has in common with the flagship three-packs, it has in common with all the other three-packs, too. That being a console set with bonuses and tac/eng/sci variants.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
This was seen clearly with the D'deridex class in TNG and DS9.
A design contest would be cool. I wasn't around for the first one what went into it?
Also RR can't say more cruisers since technically they have no cruisers. (No cruiser abilities) I do however agree RR needs some science. (I kinda thought that was going to be the Romulan leaning. Feds had a lot of engineering cruisers and a dabbling of science and tactical. Klingons had tactical with a dabbling of engineering and a dash of science. So Romulans would be Science and a a dabbling of engineering with a dash of tactical.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Any new flagship will be similarly constructed stat-wise:
Also remember that it was only by bringing in the romulans during the dominion war that the federation and the klingon empire prevented their guaranteed distruction. When the Hobus supernova happened, it gave the Klingons an opportunity to expand, but even then they would not have been able to conquer the fractured romulan empire.
It's true that the klingons or the federation might have been able to swat New Romulus, but in doing so they would hand the rebels supporters right to the Tal Shiar and effectively galvanize and restore the Romulan Empire. The Klingons might have been able to garner some territory but it wouldn't benefit them as then they would be facing a two front war against effectively equal powers and it would be the end of the Empire as that would give the Gorn and Orions and Naussicans a chance to rebel and reclaim their independance.
Now as for the Scimitar, any idiot that believes that the romulan military would not have swooped into Remus and scavenged everything they could have on the Scimitars designs and built their own is false (I do agree they might have changed the aesthetic.) But the reality was that the ship was a successful design for military purposes, I don't see them changing much. Most likely getting rid of the thalaron device (But then again, the Tal Shiar might not have).
Its a fitting dreadnought for them. Especially for a new romulan faction, by using the Scimitar as a flagship it gives them power on the cheap. Remember, the romulan republic is extremely young, It is likely they would replace the Scimitar as the flagship down the line, but its a waste of resources to do so this early. They are better off doing it after they have completely defeated the Tal Shiar and reformed the Empires remnants into a true powerful republic. Its 2409, maybe when its like 2420 they can revisit the flagship. Maybe Refit the Scimitar into a true Romulan looking warbird. Let's not forget that the Odyssey and the Bortas still don't match the actual canon stats of the Scimitar for Strength and Power, let alone actual size. Though I will say I find it wierd that the Klingons never revisited the ability to fire while cloaked, especially when they again went to war against the federation.
A Flagship is a ship that is in command of; a division, a squadron, a task group, a task force(bigger version of a task group), and/or an entire fleet. That said what makes that ship the commanding ship and thus the Flagship is that it carries a; Commodore, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, or Admiral. That person is the "flag officer" who commands what ever force as mentioned above, the ship they operate from is the flagship, where they have their flag bridge. Since top ranks are admiral ranks, every teir 5 ship is a freaking flagship. That is the definition of a flagship. That means that the designation of flagship is meaningless here anyways. Because everyone is flying their own flagship. Which is doubly ignorant because flag officers do not command their flagship, the flag captain commands the flagship.
Basically: Flag officer is responsible for all ships in his command, he tells them where to go and what their mission is. The captains are each responsible for their own ships, including the flag captain, thus how they complete the mission, and how they get there on the individual scale.
Okay, I'll play ball.
What did I just say on the last page?
Seriously you're waaaay overthinking this.
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Just catching this topic you'll have to forgive me for missing a few posts(or pages.)
we all know this....at least i do. What you have said is all truth in the realm of real life naval protocol. But this is a bloody game, set in a genre(sci-fi in general) where the "Flagship" IS the "pride of who/what ever" and in that, the list is long.
Enterprise
Defiant
White Star 1
Black Star
Home One
Intimidator
Eclipse
In someway, each of these ships where the embodiment of those who used them. They were symbols of the people who served on them. The crews where considered the best of the best but more than that, When one thought of the BEST ship from a certain place or people, THIS (the flagship) was the ship they thought of.
In STO, when one thinks of the ship that symbolizes the FEDs, the Odyssey closes up, for the KDF, their flagship closes up. (i forget class name.) They are ships built by the owners, symbolizing the owners....
The romulans should get that same, not a ship copied from others.
Except that isn't remotely close to what the Romulan Republic is about. The Republic is about breaking free of the Tal'Shiar and providing a safe haven from those amoral Iconian pawns. Keep in mind that the Republic is by no means any Federation. D'Tan for that matter is playing both sides (The Klingon Empire and United Federation of Planets) against the middle for profit to the Republic.
The Scimitar makes a fine symbol of the Republic. It's huge eagle-like wings fit perfectly with raptor/bird of prey model that Romulans style their ship after. It's original intention is also quite noble, as it the intent was for the Remans to throw off the oppression, and tyranny of the Romulan Star Empire. Which is the same ideal the Republic adheres to.
Now with that being said, and to get away from playing the devil's advocate. As much as I'd like to see a more unique set of ships take it's place... It's overall might makes it a nice ship for the fleet to stand on. If they do decide to change it, it's over all power will make it stick as one of the most common ships used by Romulan players.
After cleaning up copious of drool.....
...this WILL be the flagship....at least from my fleet anyways...
I have a different perception of the republic and D'Tan then. D'Tan (influenced by Spock) rather seemed to me as rational and considerably less scheming than former Romulan leaders.
I always thought of the involvement of the Iconians & their pawns rather incidental as the republic was founded before knowledge about them.
And as far as the Tal'Shiar and the former romulan empire goes, THEY already made the scimitar their symbol, look at Sela's flagship.
For the record, I found another Tal Shiar Scimitar.
There is a fleet of D'Ds and a command Scimitar you fly past on your way to the beacon.
You can get target on them but are not allowed to shoot at them and they don't move. But they are there.
(Right side, close to the planet.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
That aside, some folks have pointed out that the Scimitar's a cool symbol of the Reman struggle, and the Romulan Republic is inclusive to Remans, whereas the Star Empire still considers them 2nd-class citizens.
It makes perfect sense that they'd choose a Reman-originated design to lead the fleet.
And of course there are Tal Shiar Scimitars floating around, because those jerks would have no qualms about exploiting the designs of the people they oppress.
True enough though, it doesn't have a Cmdr Eng slot.
I don't see why it must be a Cryptic original, or must have a detachable part, if you're willing to give up on being a complete cruiser, with warp core etc. It's different, but comparable in those areas (i.e. being unique and having combat pets).
Hmm, maybe that could be an idea though. Trade the hangar for a detachable part.
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/sto.gamepedia.com/7/79/Falchion_Warbird.png
Looking at the top there I could see those random little struts having little nacelles on 'em.
EDIT: That Dyson warbird is lookin sexy! Except for maybe the Fed one, the ships are looking great, the Rom one is definitely the best looking of the bunch.
It's like this. I am the hero of The Romulan Republic. I am the discoverer of New Romulus. Whatever ship I command IS the Flagship of the Romulan Republic. That is my Legacy.
You didn't discover Ne Romulus. I did!
Seriously though. the only reason we don't get the 'flagship' for ourselves is then there would be 90 Enterprises out there.
So I shall paraphrase a signature I liked.
The flagship gets all the easy missions. We get the important ones. (or weird ones case depending.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Why would the Orions want to rebel and reclaim their independence? They're already in control of the Klingon Empire, and they weren't conquered by the Klingons, but willingly united with the Klingon Empire.
Collaborate with the arrogant and prejudiced Vulcans while they continue their condescending behavior? The Vulcans need to come to terms with the fact that they are far from perfect, and the fact that they need emotion in order to be whole. Then we'll talk.
Unless you're allowed to romance Captain Jarok. :P Then it's the strongest Romulan duo.
I agree.
I've never cared for the scimitar's appearance. As a one-off badass mega-ship in not one of the better Star Trek films, it was ok. But I've never looked at it and thought "That looks Romulan."
If anything I'd say its reminiscent of the Imperial Shuttle from Star Wars. It has the same flat hull and lower wings, just not the dorsal fin.
I've also never thought, "I want to fly one of those." The only circumstances under which I'd get them is if I was drowning in dilithium, they were on sale, and I felt like completing my collection of Romulan ships.
It would be a little bit sad if we're stuck with them as our flagship. Would be nice to have something more properly Romulan. But personally I'm more interested in getting some sci warbirds.