TLDR: Yes we should have small shipyards and yes it stands to reason all we could make are ships like the Ar'kala. Fine, make THAT the flagship.
I am ok with that. Just dont let the REMAN Scimitar be the ROMULAN flagship.
On the other hand, the RR also stands for it's newfound freedom, for Romulans AND Remans, finally. Having a Reman-designed flagship perfectly represents that ideal imo
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Age means very little in STO lol But even ignoring that, they used the Excelsior design in TNG and DS9, 80 years after it was introduced.
Not much says the Scimitar can't do the same, if it has to.
On the other hand, the RR also stands for it's newfound freedom, for Romulans AND Remans, finally. Having a Reman-designed flagship perfectly represents that ideal imo
It is a valid argument to say that the life expectancy of a ship class has no apparent limit in canon. However, I wouldn't go as far as saying that a weapon of mass destruction (keep in mind that the scimitar was first and foremost a vehicle for deploying the thalaron radiation weapon) represents the ideal of freedom very well. If anything, it was a tool that Shinzon wanted to use to strike a fatal blow to the Federation at earth and to anybody else that stood in his way. Shinzon was a meglomaniac and he was willing to go to any length to satisfy his thirst for power and revenge, so no, I wouldn't say the scimitar is an appropriate flagship for the RR. In fact, it's totally inappropriate.
A newer Romulan, Reman hydrid ship would have been more fitting. Granted, this would have required more effort on Cryptic's part but a ship of this kind would do a much better job of representing the ideals the RR was founded upon.
It is a valid argument to say that the life expectancy of a ship class has no apparent limit in canon. However, I wouldn't go as far as saying that a weapon of mass destruction (keep in mind that the scimitar was first and foremost a vehicle for deploying the thalaron radiation weapon) represents the ideal of freedom very well. If anything, it was a tool that Shinzon wanted to use to strike a fatal blow to the Federation at earth and to anybody else that stood in his way. Shinzon was a meglomaniac and he was willing to go to any length to satisfy his thirst for power and revenge, so no, I wouldn't say the scimitar is an appropriate flagship for the RR. In fact, it's totally inappropriate.
A newer Romulan, Reman hydrid ship would have been more fitting. Granted, this would have required more effort on Cryptic's part but a ship of this kind would do a much better job of representing the ideals the RR was founded upon.
Granted, very well granted But of course, there's the opposite side, where vessel designs have served longer-than-average periods (which was my point).
And about the RR, one of their other key points is that they're overturning previous stereotypes. What better way to do that than to take a vessel built for mass destruction, and turn it into a symbol of freedom?
Cochrane built the first warp vessel out of a former nuke, so why not?
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
the scimitar WOULD embody the new found freedom of both the Remans AND Romulans...IF it was designed by both. I believe it is strickly a reman design and not a joint venture.
the scimitar WOULD embody the new found freedom of both the Remans AND Romulans...IF it was designed by both. I believe it is strickly a reman design and not a joint venture.
I kinda believe the opposite It's a fact that it was a Reman (and Human, technically) designed ship, and it was meant to be a ship of mass destruction... but in short, that shouldn't matter too much, because they're being used for more noble reasons now.
Can certainly be argued about, and disapproved of, but not be stopped from being used as a Flagship imo
But can be agreed-to-disagree just as much.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I kinda believe the opposite It's a fact that it was a Reman (and Human, technically) designed ship, and it was meant to be a ship of mass destruction... but in short, that shouldn't matter too much, because they're being used for more noble reasons now.
Can certainly be argued about, and disapproved of, but not be stopped from being used as a Flagship imo
But can be agreed-to-disagree just as much.
...that is kinda like says "We are going to build a new death star as the new republic symbol for freedom and peace"
or let me switch gears:
Look everyone! our nice new Reman friends, who we enslaved for god knows how long allowed us to use these new ships, based on a WMD desgined by people wanted to cripple or destroy the federation and anything else, kill any and all who stood in their way, commanded by a failed, insane clone who could do nothing right except kill of the romulan senate which created the fracture our people currently find themselves in and left us unable to handle the destruction of our world forcing us to ask help from those we have hated and mistrusted for generations in hopes they will leave us along while we rebuild ourselves....
...but it we will just say it symbolizes cooperation and freedom....
really......
Make the Flagship the Ar'kala and get it over with.
Or get us a re-skin, romulan look for the Scimitar......that i have volunteered to design.....
At least that way the others can argue about us "getting too many ships....."
...that is kinda like says "We are going to build a new death star as the new republic symbol for freedom and peace"
or let me switch gears:
Look everyone! our nice new Reman friends, who we enslaved for god knows how long allowed us to use these new ships, based on a WMD desgined by people wanted to cripple or destroy the federation and anything else, kill any and all who stood in their way, commanded by a failed, insane clone who could do nothing right except kill of the romulan senate which created the fracture our people currently find themselves in and left us unable to handle the destruction of our world forcing us to ask help from those we have hated and mistrusted for generations in hopes they will leave us along while we rebuild ourselves....
...but it we will just say it symbolizes cooperation and freedom....
really......
Make the Flagship the Ar'kala and get it over with.
That's what my point is though: acknowledge the past, and move on. The Scimitar was gonna used to cause mass destruction, yes, but the one behind that intention is gone now.
The R.R.W. Lleiset is proving that, with the daughter of a Romulan remembered as a traitor ("The Defector")... but she's not letting her father's past stop her
And in either case, the Lleiset is already stated to be the flagship... so it is done.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Go to this link - select Romulan ships, and check out the Nova Battleship. Its from the old days of the FASA Star Trek table top. Man that was fun as a kid.
That's what my point is though: acknowledge the past, and move on. The Scimitar was gonna used to cause mass destruction, yes, but the one behind that intention is gone now.
The R.R.W. Lleiset is proving that, with the daughter of a Romulan remembered as a traitor ("The Defector")... but she's not letting her father's past stop her
And in either case, the Lleiset is already stated to be the flagship... so it is done.
wait... who? Daughter of who? i have seen defector however i am not aware of his daughter commanding anything.....link please? I need to read up on that.
...and i do see what youre saying. they are taking the Weapon-ship and using it to create a legacy of progress, trying to remove or atone for its darker past. That is very noble but not everyone will see it that way. I am open-minded enough to understand if not agree with, that way of thinking.....
...but it just doesnt LOOK romulan enough....THAT more than anything i just cant get over. I am not using that as a point in this debate, just voicing an opinion.
However, look at it this way, the Remans are in our same boat of not worst. dont forget Remus shared Romulus's orbit. It was destroyed too. If they want to "cooperate" Let the RR use it vault, or whatever shipyards are pumping out Scimitars, and design a ship that truly represents both peoples. Say a ship with sexy, sweeping birdlike lines of a warbird in the colors of reman ships, using the tech of both peoples....
wait... who? Daughter of who? i have seen defector however i am not aware of his daughter commanding anything.....link please? I need to read up on that.
thanks a lot. i have edited my last post with more.
edit: oh...she is THAT romulan.
the hot one from the cover.....
Im all honestly, i always respect that romulan....i was kinda sad he died at the end. i understand why, but sad none the less.
Or at least she's intended to be
And despite not completely agreeing, I do see where you're coming from as well. And perhaps in STO's future, after using the Scimitar as a 'stepping stone', they'll do just that. When the RR have built themselves up more, they'll design a new ship to show it.
But at least for now, they're using the Scimitar to overturn everything else, and create that first building block (or three/five).
And so do I; to him his little girl was more important than all else, even loyalty to the Star Empire.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
And so do I; to him his little girl was more important than all else, even loyalty to the Star Empire.
that isnt how i seen him. while i wasnt a father when i first seen the episode, i am now and that fact drives this view home that much more.
To me his loyalty to "Romulus and the Romulan people" was NEVER in question. As oppose to the Romulan Government. To me he thought the Romulan Gov was about to undertake in a foolish war. As any GOOD military commander knows their enemy, we knew his. their(the federation and starfleet) tactics didnt speel out a people of conquest, as the romulan people are/were told. He commanded men he respected, defending a home he loved, second only to his family. Men he would have to lead to their deaths fighting a war with a point he could not see. I dont see him as betraying his people, i see him as fighting to protect them from a government too scared or too foolish, or too stuck in their ways to reach out and try to understand their enemy and in doing so, would have seen there was no enemy. Starfleet didnt want a war anymore than he did. Again, their tactics would show this.
As a side note, i think the only reason the romulans are so mistrustful or humans and starfleet is because a mirror excursion attacked them, devastating some world and they have blamed the humans of the prime universe ever since....
maybe the mirror terrans got their hands on more than the defiant. maybe they got a klingon ship too, and it was used IN that attack...it wasnt destroyed, but crippled. the Romulans boarded her, and seen humans on a Klingon ship, assumed the two of them has conspired against them and broke their technology trade agreement with the Klingons, mistrusting both in what they assumed was an unprovoked attack by a people they were at war with(at one time...not currently.) and a people they thought to be allies. This caused them to attack the Klingons in cloak sneak attacks which the klingons considered honorless which all results in how they see each other from next gen forward.
Werent the Alt universe roms all dead...? which could been the reason for the mirror atk. you know "wow, those rommie have such nice toys, we shouldnt of killed them off in our universe. we should go to the other universe and see if we might steal some of their toys."
that isnt how i seen him. while i wasnt a father when i first seen the episode, i am now and that fact drives this view home that much more.
To me his loyalty to "Romulus and the Romulan people" was NEVER in question. As oppose to the Romulan Government. To me he thought the Romulan Gov was about to undertake in a foolish war. As any GOOD military commander knows their enemy, we knew his. their(the federation and starfleet) tactics didnt speel out a people of conquest, as the romulan people are/were told. He commanded men he respected, defending a home he loved, second only to his family. Men he would have to lead to their deaths fighting a war with a point he could not see. I dont see him as betraying his people, i see him as fighting to protect them from a government too scared or too foolish, or too stuck in their ways to reach out and try to understand their enemy and in doing so, would have seen there was no enemy. Starfleet didnt want a war anymore than he did. Again, their tactics would show this.
As a side note, i think the only reason the romulans are so mistrustful or humans and starfleet is because a mirror excursion attack them, devastating some world and they have blamed the humans of the prime universe ever since....
Yeah, it wasn't his personal loyalty I was referring to; you and I know that he did this to save his people, including his daughter.
I meant how the Star Empire itself would see him, sorta. He knew he'd be branded a traitor, never to return no matter the outcome, and even have his daughter believe so... but he did so anyway. His people wouldn't understand that he was being 'truly' loyal, and not their restricted version, but he would.
So to me, it's very sweet that his daughter fights in his name, with the RR flagship at that
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Reading the history of it, he collaborated with the Romulan military, so SOME Romulan design must have made it in there. That being said, the Arkif being the flagship isn't a bad idea. The T'Liss was referred to as the "Praetor's finest and proudest flagship" in Balance of Terror, and I'm sure it was not the largest ship in their arsenal. Similarly, during its time the Enterprise-E was smaller than a Galaxy, yet by virtue of its more advanced technology, was denoted the flagship.
Reading the history of it, he collaborated with the Romulan military, so SOME Romulan design must have made it in there. That being said, the Arkif being the flagship isn't a bad idea. The T'Liss was referred to as the "Praetor's finest and proudest flagship" in Balance of Terror, and I'm sure it was not the largest ship in their arsenal. Similarly, during its time the Enterprise-E was smaller than a Galaxy, yet by virtue of its more advanced technology, was denoted the flagship.
Actually when you think about the way it's phrased "We are beaten. Can it be true? The Praetor's finest and proudest flagship beaten." it very nearly sounds like there's more than one flagship around doesn't it?
Reading the history of it, he collaborated with the Romulan military, so SOME Romulan design must have made it in there. That being said, the Arkif being the flagship isn't a bad idea. The T'Liss was referred to as the "Praetor's finest and proudest flagship" in Balance of Terror, and I'm sure it was not the largest ship in their arsenal. Similarly, during its time the Enterprise-E was smaller than a Galaxy, yet by virtue of its more advanced technology, was denoted the flagship.
Collaboration of not, the first line says it all, "The Reman Warbird Scimitar."
That said, NO WHERE on the page does it say the Scimitar was a collaboration. If fact, the most it says is the it has a similar bridge layout:
The bridge of the Scimitar was radically different in design from any other vessel, though it did share the same basic layout as most Romulan starships.
-copyed from site-
it doesnt mention anywhere to have romulan tech. This is strictly a reman ship.
Collaboration of not, the first line says it all, "The Reman Warbird Scimitar."
That said, NO WHERE on the page does it say the Scimitar was a collaboration. If fact, the most it says is the it has a similar bridge layout:
The bridge of the Scimitar was radically different in design from any other vessel, though it did share the same basic layout as most Romulan starships.
-copyed from site-
it doesnt mention anywhere to have romulan tech. This is strictly a reman ship.
i highly doubt that a slave race that had been subjugated for hundreds of years managed to build a massive ship that was more advanced than anything else the romulans had. its weapons shields and cloak was way better than anything seen before, all with out the empire knowing. its more likely that the romulans built it as a prototype and shinzon helped(we know he was serving in the romulan navy during the dominion war and may have helped build it) them saying Reman warbird Scimatar could merely mean that it was under reman control.
its possible that shinzon helped them build it planning to steal it for his plan the whole time.
i highly doubt that a slave race that had been subjugated for hundreds of years managed to build a massive ship that was more advanced than anything else the romulans had. its weapons shields and cloak was way better than anything seen before, all with out the empire knowing. its more likely that the romulans built it as a prototype and shinzon helped(we know he was serving in the romulan navy during the dominion war and may have helped build it) them saying Reman warbird Scimatar could merely mean that it was under reman control.
its possible that shinzon helped them build it planning to steal it for his plan the whole time.
Except....thats exactly what they did. The scimitar fought in the dominion war per on screen dialogue. No where ANYWHERE does it say the scimitar is even remotely romulan. Going now nothing but facts and not we think, feel, doubt, or believe, this ship IS reman. Read the wiki page. It says, "built at a secret base." Yes the romulans didnt know about it. Which is further sujjested in the opening scene of the movie. Do you think the romulan senate would of been so calm as a green light blasted their meeting room? Dont you think they wpuld have known about thaloron tech and recognized it? I understand your doubts but they mean nothing.
Yes......because bird have all those jagged lines and sweaped forward wings, no head, and an ungraceful boxy body....
What do birds look like where you come from.....
Birds are graceful with smooth surfaces and streamlined bodies. The scimitar has none of this. But i digress, we are off topic. Its a Reman ship the is a romulan flagship. Its like the atrox being the fed flag or the orion cruiser being tje KDF flagship. The feds have a fed built flagship... The kdf has a klingpn built flagship, anf the Rpmulans get a Reman biult flagship?
@christbrown "Built at a secret base, the Scimitar was the keystone of Shinzon's plot to assassinate the Romulan Senate and assume the role of Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire, something he could not have achieved without the support of the Romulan military."
This is what I took to mean collaboration from the Romulans. As a "slave race" I can't imagine them being able to completely design a ship from scratch. They could certainly contribute tactically, having fought in the Dominion War as stated, but I imagine finer points of engineering, including the magnificient cloak must have come from Romulan engineering. What it does not say is that the Scimitar itself was in the Dominion War btw, only that Shinzon and the Remans fought in it.
@misterde True, that gives credence to the idea that a flagship is just a ship with a flag officer aboard. It could also be taken mean the most powerful flagship the Romulans ever had. Since they crossed the neutral zone with it for the first time in however many years, they must have been pretty confident in it.
EDIT:
After an initial description of the Scimitar as "magnificent," the shooting script for Star Trek Nemesis introduces the craft with the following description; "Our first sight of this incredible ship is absolutely breathtaking. Shinzon's vessel combines the clean lines of the traditional Romulan Warbird with unique weaponry and styling. It is huge, easily twice as large as the Enterprise. And it is aggressive. Awesome in its power.
Additional info from the appendix of the background info section of the mem alpha page
Except....thats exactly what they did. The scimitar fought in the dominion war per on screen dialogue. No where ANYWHERE does it say the scimitar is even remotely romulan. Going now nothing but facts and not we think, feel, doubt, or believe, this ship IS reman. Read the wiki page. It says, "built at a secret base." Yes the romulans didnt know about it. Which is further sujjested in the opening scene of the movie. Do you think the romulan senate would of been so calm as a green light blasted their meeting room? Dont you think they wpuld have known about thaloron tech and recognized it? I understand your doubts but they mean nothing.
shinzon fought in the war they never said that the scimitar fought. if the thalaron weapon was so top secret its likely that the senate as a whole did not know or had seen it. they might have had a senator act as oversight but not all of them. all a secret base means that it was secret not that it must have been reman, just that it was a secret base. not all military or research bases are marked on a map it kinda makes it hard to keep your foes from knowing about it.
shinzon fought in the war they never said that the scimitar fought. if the thalaron weapon was so top secret its likely that the senate as a whole did not know or had seen it. they might have had a senator act as oversight but not all of them. all a secret base means that it was secret not that it must have been reman, just that it was a secret base. not all military or research bases are marked on a map it kinda makes it hard to keep your foes from knowing about it.
You are most likely right that The Scimitar did not fight the dominion. in fact, i concede to this point of yours.
@christbrown "Built at a secret base, the Scimitar was the keystone of Shinzon's plot to assassinate the Romulan Senate and assume the role of Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire, something he could not have achieved without the support of the Romulan military."
This is what I took to mean collaboration from the Romulans. As a "slave race" I can't imagine them being able to completely design a ship from scratch. They could certainly contribute tactically, having fought in the Dominion War as stated, but I imagine finer points of engineering, including the magnificient cloak must have come from Romulan engineering. What it does not say is that the Scimitar itself was in the Dominion War btw, only that Shinzon and the Remans fought in it.
@misterde True, that gives credence to the idea that a flagship is just a ship with a flag officer aboard. It could also be taken mean the most powerful flagship the Romulans ever had. Since they crossed the neutral zone with it for the first time in however many years, they must have been pretty confident in it.
EDIT:
After an initial description of the Scimitar as "magnificent," the shooting script for Star Trek Nemesis introduces the craft with the following description; "Our first sight of this incredible ship is absolutely breathtaking. Shinzon's vessel combines the clean lines of the traditional Romulan Warbird with unique weaponry and styling. It is huge, easily twice as large as the Enterprise. And it is aggressive. Awesome in its power.
Additional info from the appendix of the background info section of the mem alpha page
As i said to silver, the Remans can, and did make a ship, in fact, as i will show you, they made more than one ship, all on their own, with no help.
All this is speculation on both our parts but i will indulge this line of thinking. If this ship is in part, romulan, it stands to reason that its advances would be included into future designs of both Reman AND romulan ships. Shouldnt the mogai have a "perfect" cloak that allows it to stay hidden while firing? The very next new romulan ship we see has none of them. (Mogai class) You could mount arguments against this but that would only be more speculation and i prefer to deal in fact. (I will get to our facts in a moment)
"Miliatry Support" could mean many things not limited to and including starship construction. Military support could mean the right people were bribed to turn their heads at the right times, to ignore supply shipment which carried materials which would become the scimitar. Or keeping patrols from a curtain secret area where the ship was being built. We just dont know. We have NO facts and other than two vague lines about support(which you have to admit could be anything) and design layout(which could mean they simple went with what they knew to work), there is nothing to suggest that the scimitar is even partly romulan.
on the other hand, the ship used fighters, we have never seen romulans use, in a ship that looks nothing like previous romulan ships, crewed by reman's, commanded by a human clone and when completed called "The Reman Warbird Scimitar" Furthermore, the ship was:
".....constructed under the command of Shinzon as part of a secret plot to overthrow the Romulan Senate, defeat the United Federation of Planets, and liberate the subjugated natives of Remus."
Now if we are REALLY going to take this line of speculation and "could be's" to its end, lets do so logically. That said lets start at the beginning. With Shinzon himself. Following info taken from:
Shinzon lived, after exile on remus with the remans and when the romulans entered the war, they drafted the reman slaves, who which Shinzon was. This lead to his distinguishing himself during the war allowing him to rise to a point to command the construction of the scimitar. Something important to note is, he amassed an army of Remans. Considering that the romulans would not put romulan troop under command of a slave, would it be reasonable to conclude his army was entirely reman? The only romulans that would be in his army are those who were slaves and at present none seem to have appeared.
We know thanks to mem-alpha that he was the leader of the Remans. would it be logical to assume the leader of the Remans, commanded romulans?
We also know that he worked with romulan officials:
"Following the end of the Dominion War, Shinzon had both military experience and a capable army at his disposal. Forming an alliance with several Romulan officials, including Senator Tal'aura and Commanders Suran and Donatra...."
if these romulans, truly helped in the construction, wouldnt they know how to defeat the ship its weak points, how to take it down should they need to? Donatra herself, someone Shinzon worked with, fought against the scimitar...nearly being killed.... More speculation, i digress.
the Remans and ONLY the remans have constructed other ships, based on the scimitar design. the following taken from
>
In Star Trek: Countdown, the Remans were shown to have constructed smaller ships based on the design of the Scimitar. Three of these ships were used to capture the Narada, but were easily disabled by the Enterprise-E.
Here are the facts:
Shinzon was a reman leader, though not a reman.
Shinzon lead the reman people.
He worked with romulan officials but we do not know, other than what we see on screen, in what capacity.
Shinzon commanded the Scimitar's construction.
the Scimitar has always been refered to as "the Reman Warbird."
The Remans, despite being slaves, can, and have made their own ships.
NONE of these facts confirm Romulans helped in the Scimitar's construction. Few only suggest but here, taken from the STO wiki, i give you the nail in the coffin:
"24th Century, the I.R.W. Scimitar was developed covertly by a group of Remans under the command of Praetor Shinzon, a clone of Jean-Luc Picard."
Now while it can be argued that the STOwiki is NOT canon, considering we are discussing and in game matter, revolving around an in game ship, would it be logical to allow this data? If so, there you have it. "Remans" NOT "Remans AND Romulans." If you can ignore the in game wiki as canon then you write off much, including many if not ALL reasons why the ship is a good Romulan flagship. (Romulan/Reman collaboration, the other scimitar-like classes, The Scimitar NOT being the only one of her class, the scimitar as flagship.... )
I have shown you that the Remans can and do make their own ships, so they did NOT need the romulan's help for anything. That said, they HAD to of had a "Secert base and or shipyards to construct the Scimitar and the Romulans either knew about it and couldnt stop it, had no idea it existed, or did not care it could harm them and left it alone." In either case, the line about the Scimitar's construction at a secret base suggests the first.
In closing, The Reman Warbird Scimitar is exactly that. Reman. In ownership, in design, and in construction and as a strictly Reman made ship should not be used to represent the romulans.
The Federation has a Human designed and made Flagship
The KDF has a Klingon designed and made flagship.
The Romulan Republic should too and as such, i believe if we can not have a new ship to fill this role, then the Ar'kif or the Ar'kala should be the RR flagship. Period.
TLDR: there is NO reason to assume the Scimitar has romulan technology. There curtainly is no proof of it. According to the STO wiki, the ship in 100% Reman.
Tex because a slave race would totally be allowed to peruse its own military research ...
If you read the entire post you will see were it is said that they do exactly that. Counting the Scimitar the remans have made AT LEAST four ships, all on their own.
A few thoughts.
Lines used as narrative in a script are not canon as they get changed often.
IE: First appearance of the Romulans in Balance of Terror had them see the ship as a 'stolen design'.
Next the Scimitar has a bat shape to it for the 'nosferatu' aliens to fly. The Remans in creation were someone wanted a vampire like race with the Romulans to be 'cooler'.
And finally, Yes the scimitar has Romulan tech. The same way a Japanese computer has American Tech (and vice versa) Because it was built off the same technology principles. But just because the base tech comes from the same place does not mean they are compatible.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Comments
Not much says the Scimitar can't do the same, if it has to. On the other hand, the RR also stands for it's newfound freedom, for Romulans AND Remans, finally. Having a Reman-designed flagship perfectly represents that ideal imo
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
It is a valid argument to say that the life expectancy of a ship class has no apparent limit in canon. However, I wouldn't go as far as saying that a weapon of mass destruction (keep in mind that the scimitar was first and foremost a vehicle for deploying the thalaron radiation weapon) represents the ideal of freedom very well. If anything, it was a tool that Shinzon wanted to use to strike a fatal blow to the Federation at earth and to anybody else that stood in his way. Shinzon was a meglomaniac and he was willing to go to any length to satisfy his thirst for power and revenge, so no, I wouldn't say the scimitar is an appropriate flagship for the RR. In fact, it's totally inappropriate.
A newer Romulan, Reman hydrid ship would have been more fitting. Granted, this would have required more effort on Cryptic's part but a ship of this kind would do a much better job of representing the ideals the RR was founded upon.
And about the RR, one of their other key points is that they're overturning previous stereotypes. What better way to do that than to take a vessel built for mass destruction, and turn it into a symbol of freedom?
Cochrane built the first warp vessel out of a former nuke, so why not?
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Can certainly be argued about, and disapproved of, but not be stopped from being used as a Flagship imo
But can be agreed-to-disagree just as much.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
...that is kinda like says "We are going to build a new death star as the new republic symbol for freedom and peace"
or let me switch gears:
Look everyone! our nice new Reman friends, who we enslaved for god knows how long allowed us to use these new ships, based on a WMD desgined by people wanted to cripple or destroy the federation and anything else, kill any and all who stood in their way, commanded by a failed, insane clone who could do nothing right except kill of the romulan senate which created the fracture our people currently find themselves in and left us unable to handle the destruction of our world forcing us to ask help from those we have hated and mistrusted for generations in hopes they will leave us along while we rebuild ourselves....
...but it we will just say it symbolizes cooperation and freedom....
really......
Make the Flagship the Ar'kala and get it over with.
Or get us a re-skin, romulan look for the Scimitar......that i have volunteered to design.....
At least that way the others can argue about us "getting too many ships....."
The R.R.W. Lleiset is proving that, with the daughter of a Romulan remembered as a traitor ("The Defector")... but she's not letting her father's past stop her
And in either case, the Lleiset is already stated to be the flagship... so it is done.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
http://home.comcast.net/~ststcsolda/index.html
wait... who? Daughter of who? i have seen defector however i am not aware of his daughter commanding anything.....link please? I need to read up on that.
...and i do see what youre saying. they are taking the Weapon-ship and using it to create a legacy of progress, trying to remove or atone for its darker past. That is very noble but not everyone will see it that way. I am open-minded enough to understand if not agree with, that way of thinking.....
...but it just doesnt LOOK romulan enough....THAT more than anything i just cant get over. I am not using that as a point in this debate, just voicing an opinion.
However, look at it this way, the Remans are in our same boat of not worst. dont forget Remus shared Romulus's orbit. It was destroyed too. If they want to "cooperate" Let the RR use it vault, or whatever shipyards are pumping out Scimitars, and design a ship that truly represents both peoples. Say a ship with sexy, sweeping birdlike lines of a warbird in the colors of reman ships, using the tech of both peoples....
The name of the R.R.W. Lleiset's captain is Tiaru Jarok. The little we know about her now is here: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Tiaru_Jarok
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
edit: oh...she is THAT romulan.
the hot one from the cover.....
Im all honestly, i always respect that romulan....i was kinda sad he died at the end. i understand why, but sad none the less.
And despite not completely agreeing, I do see where you're coming from as well. And perhaps in STO's future, after using the Scimitar as a 'stepping stone', they'll do just that. When the RR have built themselves up more, they'll design a new ship to show it.
But at least for now, they're using the Scimitar to overturn everything else, and create that first building block (or three/five).
And so do I; to him his little girl was more important than all else, even loyalty to the Star Empire.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
that isnt how i seen him. while i wasnt a father when i first seen the episode, i am now and that fact drives this view home that much more.
To me his loyalty to "Romulus and the Romulan people" was NEVER in question. As oppose to the Romulan Government. To me he thought the Romulan Gov was about to undertake in a foolish war. As any GOOD military commander knows their enemy, we knew his. their(the federation and starfleet) tactics didnt speel out a people of conquest, as the romulan people are/were told. He commanded men he respected, defending a home he loved, second only to his family. Men he would have to lead to their deaths fighting a war with a point he could not see. I dont see him as betraying his people, i see him as fighting to protect them from a government too scared or too foolish, or too stuck in their ways to reach out and try to understand their enemy and in doing so, would have seen there was no enemy. Starfleet didnt want a war anymore than he did. Again, their tactics would show this.
As a side note, i think the only reason the romulans are so mistrustful or humans and starfleet is because a mirror excursion attacked them, devastating some world and they have blamed the humans of the prime universe ever since....
maybe the mirror terrans got their hands on more than the defiant. maybe they got a klingon ship too, and it was used IN that attack...it wasnt destroyed, but crippled. the Romulans boarded her, and seen humans on a Klingon ship, assumed the two of them has conspired against them and broke their technology trade agreement with the Klingons, mistrusting both in what they assumed was an unprovoked attack by a people they were at war with(at one time...not currently.) and a people they thought to be allies. This caused them to attack the Klingons in cloak sneak attacks which the klingons considered honorless which all results in how they see each other from next gen forward.
Werent the Alt universe roms all dead...? which could been the reason for the mirror atk. you know "wow, those rommie have such nice toys, we shouldnt of killed them off in our universe. we should go to the other universe and see if we might steal some of their toys."
I meant how the Star Empire itself would see him, sorta. He knew he'd be branded a traitor, never to return no matter the outcome, and even have his daughter believe so... but he did so anyway. His people wouldn't understand that he was being 'truly' loyal, and not their restricted version, but he would.
So to me, it's very sweet that his daughter fights in his name, with the RR flagship at that
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
And having a lot of thoughts about ST isn't a bad thing, you just gotta find the right threads to say them all in
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
discussing Jarok here:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/index.php/Alidar_Jarok
Reading the history of it, he collaborated with the Romulan military, so SOME Romulan design must have made it in there. That being said, the Arkif being the flagship isn't a bad idea. The T'Liss was referred to as the "Praetor's finest and proudest flagship" in Balance of Terror, and I'm sure it was not the largest ship in their arsenal. Similarly, during its time the Enterprise-E was smaller than a Galaxy, yet by virtue of its more advanced technology, was denoted the flagship.
Actually when you think about the way it's phrased "We are beaten. Can it be true? The Praetor's finest and proudest flagship beaten." it very nearly sounds like there's more than one flagship around doesn't it?
Collaboration of not, the first line says it all, "The Reman Warbird Scimitar."
That said, NO WHERE on the page does it say the Scimitar was a collaboration. If fact, the most it says is the it has a similar bridge layout:
The bridge of the Scimitar was radically different in design from any other vessel, though it did share the same basic layout as most Romulan starships.
-copyed from site-
it doesnt mention anywhere to have romulan tech. This is strictly a reman ship.
i highly doubt that a slave race that had been subjugated for hundreds of years managed to build a massive ship that was more advanced than anything else the romulans had. its weapons shields and cloak was way better than anything seen before, all with out the empire knowing. its more likely that the romulans built it as a prototype and shinzon helped(we know he was serving in the romulan navy during the dominion war and may have helped build it) them saying Reman warbird Scimatar could merely mean that it was under reman control.
its possible that shinzon helped them build it planning to steal it for his plan the whole time.
Except....thats exactly what they did. The scimitar fought in the dominion war per on screen dialogue. No where ANYWHERE does it say the scimitar is even remotely romulan. Going now nothing but facts and not we think, feel, doubt, or believe, this ship IS reman. Read the wiki page. It says, "built at a secret base." Yes the romulans didnt know about it. Which is further sujjested in the opening scene of the movie. Do you think the romulan senate would of been so calm as a green light blasted their meeting room? Dont you think they wpuld have known about thaloron tech and recognized it? I understand your doubts but they mean nothing.
Yes......because bird have all those jagged lines and sweaped forward wings, no head, and an ungraceful boxy body....
What do birds look like where you come from.....
Birds are graceful with smooth surfaces and streamlined bodies. The scimitar has none of this. But i digress, we are off topic. Its a Reman ship the is a romulan flagship. Its like the atrox being the fed flag or the orion cruiser being tje KDF flagship. The feds have a fed built flagship... The kdf has a klingpn built flagship, anf the Rpmulans get a Reman biult flagship?
One of these things is not like the others....
This is what I took to mean collaboration from the Romulans. As a "slave race" I can't imagine them being able to completely design a ship from scratch. They could certainly contribute tactically, having fought in the Dominion War as stated, but I imagine finer points of engineering, including the magnificient cloak must have come from Romulan engineering. What it does not say is that the Scimitar itself was in the Dominion War btw, only that Shinzon and the Remans fought in it.
@misterde True, that gives credence to the idea that a flagship is just a ship with a flag officer aboard. It could also be taken mean the most powerful flagship the Romulans ever had. Since they crossed the neutral zone with it for the first time in however many years, they must have been pretty confident in it.
EDIT:
After an initial description of the Scimitar as "magnificent," the shooting script for Star Trek Nemesis introduces the craft with the following description; "Our first sight of this incredible ship is absolutely breathtaking. Shinzon's vessel combines the clean lines of the traditional Romulan Warbird with unique weaponry and styling. It is huge, easily twice as large as the Enterprise. And it is aggressive. Awesome in its power.
Additional info from the appendix of the background info section of the mem alpha page
shinzon fought in the war they never said that the scimitar fought. if the thalaron weapon was so top secret its likely that the senate as a whole did not know or had seen it. they might have had a senator act as oversight but not all of them. all a secret base means that it was secret not that it must have been reman, just that it was a secret base. not all military or research bases are marked on a map it kinda makes it hard to keep your foes from knowing about it.
You are most likely right that The Scimitar did not fight the dominion. in fact, i concede to this point of yours.
As i said to silver, the Remans can, and did make a ship, in fact, as i will show you, they made more than one ship, all on their own, with no help.
All this is speculation on both our parts but i will indulge this line of thinking. If this ship is in part, romulan, it stands to reason that its advances would be included into future designs of both Reman AND romulan ships. Shouldnt the mogai have a "perfect" cloak that allows it to stay hidden while firing? The very next new romulan ship we see has none of them. (Mogai class) You could mount arguments against this but that would only be more speculation and i prefer to deal in fact. (I will get to our facts in a moment)
"Miliatry Support" could mean many things not limited to and including starship construction. Military support could mean the right people were bribed to turn their heads at the right times, to ignore supply shipment which carried materials which would become the scimitar. Or keeping patrols from a curtain secret area where the ship was being built. We just dont know. We have NO facts and other than two vague lines about support(which you have to admit could be anything) and design layout(which could mean they simple went with what they knew to work), there is nothing to suggest that the scimitar is even partly romulan.
on the other hand, the ship used fighters, we have never seen romulans use, in a ship that looks nothing like previous romulan ships, crewed by reman's, commanded by a human clone and when completed called "The Reman Warbird Scimitar" Furthermore, the ship was:
".....constructed under the command of Shinzon as part of a secret plot to overthrow the Romulan Senate, defeat the United Federation of Planets, and liberate the subjugated natives of Remus."
Now if we are REALLY going to take this line of speculation and "could be's" to its end, lets do so logically. That said lets start at the beginning. With Shinzon himself. Following info taken from:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Shinzon
Shinzon lived, after exile on remus with the remans and when the romulans entered the war, they drafted the reman slaves, who which Shinzon was. This lead to his distinguishing himself during the war allowing him to rise to a point to command the construction of the scimitar. Something important to note is, he amassed an army of Remans. Considering that the romulans would not put romulan troop under command of a slave, would it be reasonable to conclude his army was entirely reman? The only romulans that would be in his army are those who were slaves and at present none seem to have appeared.
We know thanks to mem-alpha that he was the leader of the Remans. would it be logical to assume the leader of the Remans, commanded romulans?
We also know that he worked with romulan officials:
"Following the end of the Dominion War, Shinzon had both military experience and a capable army at his disposal. Forming an alliance with several Romulan officials, including Senator Tal'aura and Commanders Suran and Donatra...."
if these romulans, truly helped in the construction, wouldnt they know how to defeat the ship its weak points, how to take it down should they need to? Donatra herself, someone Shinzon worked with, fought against the scimitar...nearly being killed.... More speculation, i digress.
the Remans and ONLY the remans have constructed other ships, based on the scimitar design. the following taken from
>
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Scimitar
In Star Trek: Countdown, the Remans were shown to have constructed smaller ships based on the design of the Scimitar. Three of these ships were used to capture the Narada, but were easily disabled by the Enterprise-E.
Here are the facts:
Shinzon was a reman leader, though not a reman.
Shinzon lead the reman people.
He worked with romulan officials but we do not know, other than what we see on screen, in what capacity.
Shinzon commanded the Scimitar's construction.
the Scimitar has always been refered to as "the Reman Warbird."
The Remans, despite being slaves, can, and have made their own ships.
NONE of these facts confirm Romulans helped in the Scimitar's construction. Few only suggest but here, taken from the STO wiki, i give you the nail in the coffin:
Taken from: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Scimitar_Dreadnought_Warbird
"24th Century, the I.R.W. Scimitar was developed covertly by a group of Remans under the command of Praetor Shinzon, a clone of Jean-Luc Picard."
Now while it can be argued that the STOwiki is NOT canon, considering we are discussing and in game matter, revolving around an in game ship, would it be logical to allow this data? If so, there you have it. "Remans" NOT "Remans AND Romulans." If you can ignore the in game wiki as canon then you write off much, including many if not ALL reasons why the ship is a good Romulan flagship. (Romulan/Reman collaboration, the other scimitar-like classes, The Scimitar NOT being the only one of her class, the scimitar as flagship.... )
I have shown you that the Remans can and do make their own ships, so they did NOT need the romulan's help for anything. That said, they HAD to of had a "Secert base and or shipyards to construct the Scimitar and the Romulans either knew about it and couldnt stop it, had no idea it existed, or did not care it could harm them and left it alone." In either case, the line about the Scimitar's construction at a secret base suggests the first.
In closing, The Reman Warbird Scimitar is exactly that. Reman. In ownership, in design, and in construction and as a strictly Reman made ship should not be used to represent the romulans.
The Federation has a Human designed and made Flagship
The KDF has a Klingon designed and made flagship.
The Romulan Republic should too and as such, i believe if we can not have a new ship to fill this role, then the Ar'kif or the Ar'kala should be the RR flagship. Period.
TLDR: there is NO reason to assume the Scimitar has romulan technology. There curtainly is no proof of it. According to the STO wiki, the ship in 100% Reman.
If you read the entire post you will see were it is said that they do exactly that. Counting the Scimitar the remans have made AT LEAST four ships, all on their own.
In fact....
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Scimitar_Dreadnought_Warbird
read this where it states twice, that the Scimitar is of Reman design.
.....i do believe that is check and mate.
Lines used as narrative in a script are not canon as they get changed often.
IE: First appearance of the Romulans in Balance of Terror had them see the ship as a 'stolen design'.
Next the Scimitar has a bat shape to it for the 'nosferatu' aliens to fly. The Remans in creation were someone wanted a vampire like race with the Romulans to be 'cooler'.
And finally, Yes the scimitar has Romulan tech. The same way a Japanese computer has American Tech (and vice versa) Because it was built off the same technology principles. But just because the base tech comes from the same place does not mean they are compatible.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.