A few thoughts.
Lines used as narrative in a script are not canon as they get changed often.
IE: First appearance of the Romulans in Balance of Terror had them see the ship as a 'stolen design'.
Next the Scimitar has a bat shape to it for the 'nosferatu' aliens to fly. The Remans in creation were someone wanted a vampire like race with the Romulans to be 'cooler'.
And finally, Yes the scimitar has Romulan tech. The same way a Japanese computer has American Tech (and vice versa) Because it was built off the same technology principles. But just because the base tech comes from the same place does not mean they are compatible.
I disagree. I have already posted sources which state, NOT used on screen lines, that the scimitar is reman. Not romulan. That said i DO see what youre saying however, just because the remans got ideas from romulans and then made reman copies, that doesnt mean as a reman made copy, its romulan. The chinese copy many things but the things they make, like the scimitar, uses no components of the orginal.
I disagree. I have already posted sources which state, NOT used on screen lines, that the scimitar is reman. Not romulan. That said i DO see what youre saying however, just because the remans got ideas from romulans and then made reman copies, that doesnt mean as a reman made copy, its romulan. The chinese copy many things but the things they make, like the scimitar, uses no components of the orginal.
Exactly. Remans may have had Romulan tech, but that does not make the ship itself Romulan.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Exactly. Remans may have had Romulan tech, but that does not make the ship itself Romulan.
Confused... Are you agreeing that the Scimitar, while copying Romulan tech, may not have ANY original Romulan tech within her? If so, i agree with this. To illustrate:
Yes they did. you did not read all of the pages i sourced as proof. it shows. I was refering to the three Reman ships used to capture the Nero's ship in Star Trek Countdown. This brings the total count of Reman ships, counting the Scimitar to four, AT LEAST, as i said.
The Scimitar was the only ship we seen, the Valdore-type (Mogai) was never stated to be Reman or that it was developed along or after the Scimitar.
My point in mentioning the Mogai was used to show the lack of included Scimitar teck in the mogai. If the Romulans help with the Scimitar, two ship designed and built in a similar time frame, it stands to reason that they would share technological aspects IF constructed by the same people, the romulans. (keep in mind NO source confirms this AND the Star trek online wiki even says it is designed by Remans....the Scimitar that is.)
Looking at Memory Beta we see something about the Scimitar destroying the other ships under construction.
Memory Beta is non-canon and NOT a valid source. as such i have yet to read it. that said i will indulge you for a time.
Memory beta is hardly canon. In fact Memory Beta itself says it is Non-canon.....(if using firefox the tab used to pull up Memory beta mentions it being Non-canon) I realize neither is the Star trek online wiki canon however considering we are talking about a ship IN GAME.....
Also I would like to know from were you are pullung the "four ships" because if you are pulling the Countdown Comic I will point out those ships come much later after the Remans sort-of became a prefecture of the Klingon Empire if we go with Titan novels but still the point is this.
Considering the countdown comics would be considered a higher level of canon they cannot simply be dismissed because they conflict with your OPINION. The same cannot be said for the titan novels. again, yes i was referring to those three reman ships from countdown, mentioned on the memory alpha page i sourced.
Remans were a creation of Nemesis and one that is very hard to explain because massive retcons are somewhat required because apparently they were used as shock troops in the Dominion War yet we seen none in DS9, regardless the movie is very clear about the Remans being a slave race for the Romulans for CENTURIES, they had NO ability to build ships something you continue to insist, even if the Scimitar was a Reman design it had to share design lineage with Romulan Warbirds because THAT is were they started to build it from, the Reman warbird in the Countdown comic share a resemblance with the Scimitar because that was what the Remans knew.
However the remans being a slave race and your claiming they cant make their own ships is proven wrong TWICE. Once be memory alpha mentioning the three remans ships in countdown and once on star trek online wiki calling the scimitar a "reman designed ship" These are not things i am making up. you or anyone can look them up even now. you can not just ignore that. Or do you intend to do just that, ignoring third party data presented by the opposing side in a debate to make your point seem more valid. You cant just throw it out.
Your argument is even very self defeating because the Scimitar was at least the collaboration of Romulans and Remans because there is simply no way you can have a xenophobic race (Romulans) allowing a slave race to not only build ships without any kind of supervision but also allow them to pursue their own designs ... that kinda takes the "slave" out of the race and more on "servant" side.
Two sources, which i have repeatedly mentioned, one of which being memory alpha, the other Start trek online's on wiki, says you are mistaken and that the remans did in fact make their own ships. If you can show me canon sourcessm as i have, that proves otherwise, then i am willing to concede however you have yet to do so. In fact i cant understand why you are willing to ignore Memory Alpha as a source.....
Funny, I use memory Beta that says "The Scimitar-class was a type of Romulan warbird developed in the late 24th century. " and I take Beta over STO wiki, besides you are twisting it ... the Scimitar is in the game used by BOTH the Romulans and the Remans but in story missions ONLY by the Romulans (or the Borg in the case of a STF), even if the ship was reman designed ... well ... are we playing in the Romulan Star Empire or the Romulan Republic and even the Romulan Star Empire had to allow privileges to the Remans (Taris)
Ok, even if we throw out the Star Trek online wiki,(a course of action i find very illogical considering the argument concerns a starship IN STAR TREK ONLINE......), we then, have no valid reason to consider memory beta any more valid. That said, we are left with Memory Alpha, which mentions three REMAN ships used to take Nero's ship. If the remans can make three ships by themselves with no romulan help, then they could have made the Scimiter, a ship the three ships were based on. Again, this infomation is on Memory Alpha. if you can throw that out, we might as well start making things up because there is not other canon source other than the movie itself.
Hardly.
You are simply undermining any point against the Scimitar being used as a Flagship because the ship us both Romulan and Reman and as such a symbol of Romulan and Reman working together because that was what the ship was, the Remans did not build it in their spare time in the mines nor they would ever get the education to design starships (its kinda more complicated that "press trigger to shoot") let alone being able to surpass the Romulans in cloaking technology.
Memory Alpha disagrees with you. You have failed to address those three ships they in fact DID build. Per your logic, if they were too inept to biuld the scimitar, they would also be too inept to steal it. So how do you believe they got it? Did their romulan masters, in a fit of suicidal regret from centuries of subjugation, give it too them in hope that they would put them out of theor misery, or were the romulans simply hoping they would give the Dumb remans a new toy, point them at their enemies and hope they would not return to bite them back? .....if the later.....and the romulans ARE that dumb.....i dont see how the remans couldnt NOT hide a starship from them...but i digress...
direct replies in bold.
Sir, you cannot throw out a source simply because it disagrees with you and doing so shows poor debating skills(no offense or disrespect intended.) In my wall of text, i mentioned points that suggest your side was right and then i brought up my own points that discredited those points. you side continues to press your OPINION that the remans could not have constructed their own ships. This is an error because they did. Three of them in fact and that is if we ONLY use Memory Alpha as a source. If we include the Star Trek Online wiki, the Scimitar's own page admits to it being a REMAN desinged ship. That alone should end the debate.
Broken down by the numbers, you have read the Star Trek Online game, concerning the Ship in question, in the Star Trek Online game, seen that is says the ship is Reman and on you own, decided, "the makers of the game are wrong about a ship in a game THEY made. I dont care what memory alpha says, they didnt make ship because they were stupid slaves and didnt have the ability."
To quote a vulcan, your logic is flawed. To say the Remans were incapable so such a feat is insulting to the remans. If we are to use United States history as an analog, many times have those who would be called "slaves" been underestimated. Many times where those who where told they could not perform, did they prove the naysayers wrong. See below:
In many situations, they did better than those who would look down on them. I say that to say it is completely within the realm of possibility that the Remans DID make a ship which could surpass Romulan Tech. In fact, according to Star Trek Online wiki, that ship is called "Scimitar"
I will close with this:
The Reman warbird Scimitar was a massive, heavily-armed warship. It was constructed under the command of Shinzon as part of a secret plot to overthrow the Romulan Senate, defeat the United Federation of Planets, and liberate the subjugated natives of Remus.
taken from Memory Alpha. pay attention to that first line.....
EDIT: Also after reading the Reman p[age of memory alpha, seen here:
A reman colony from Countdown was included in game adding validation to Countdown itself being used as a source. That said we cant take countdown apart and pick and choose what parts of it we accept and which we dont. ALL of countdown must be included because the Crateris, colony is in game. That said, if we must accept the Crateris colony, we must accept countdown. if we must accpet countdown then the remans DO have the capability to build their own ships and it is then completely possible that they could have built the scimitar.
now again.
Federation get human made ship.
KDF gets Klingon made ship.
Romulans get Reman made.....
Make the Flagship an Ar'kala and get it over with....
Now the facts:
The Remans CAN and HAVE constructed their own ships.
NO where on the memory alpha Scimitar page does it confirm that romulans helped in the Scimitar's construction and it is refered to as "The Reman Warbird Scimitar"
those are just the facts if we are only to consider Memory alpha as canon. You cant just throw that out so would you like to address these facts or concede?
However, chrisbrown, if you want to use STO wiki as canon for STO then you have to accept this as well:
"Since the Battle of the Bassen Rift, both the Tal Shiar and the Romulan Republic have developed new variants based on the original ship design. The Scimitar-class, Falchion-class, and Tulwar-class of Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds represent the Romulan Republic?s latest iterations on this technology."
This reiterates my point, that the Falchion was a Romulan Republic revamp of the Scimitar, in collaboration with their new Reman allies.
To continue discussion on the Scimitar, however, yes, I agree we are both speculating. However, your references to two fighting brigades do not provide evidence of construction of high technology(for the time) but merely fighting prowess where none was expected. The Reman fighting prowess is not in question here, in fact I stated I believe they contributed to the tactical features of the design. However, the perfect cloak, engine components etc. are most likely Romulan, ships based on the Scimitar do not prove that they could have built the Scimitar on their own, only that they were able to build similar vessels after having the experience of building the first one. Also, the mogai was not built to be a superweapon, and not in secret, so they can't be expected to share technology, and they technology may only be deployable on a ship like the Scimitar. Evidence of this is the lack of perfect cloak on the three Reman built warbirds you pointed out, and also the lack of it in the Arkala, a joint ship as you've ceded.
It's a spaceship, it doesn't need to be aerodynamic, and streamlined. How is it even possible for a splinter faction of terrorist/freedom fighters, to even have flagships. Wouldn't the Tal' Shiar just blow up any ship yards they found? And what could this rag-tag bunch of refugees possibly have that would be of value to either the Klingon, or Federation war effort? Oh, that's right, somehow, the New Romulan Republic, managed to abscond with more resources than the Romulan Star Empire had when it was whole. Sorry for that immersion breaker.
Let's dissect this a moment and put a little perspective on it.
Space ship and aerodynamics: Fair point, though it does seem to violate everyone's basic design element except the borg.
How is it possible for a faction of terrorist/freedom fighters to have flagships: First, the definition of terrorist does not fit for Obisek nor the Romulan Republic. To be a terrorist they need to strike at a civilian target with large collateral damage. The group that fits that description is the Tal Shiar.
How can they have a flagship? First they have a unique vessel serving as the said command ship in the flotilla. It is their only one and presumably it was taken from the yards with the designs when the senate fell and chaos ensued in the star empire. How can they build new ones? Two methods. First is that both the federation and the Klingon empire are pouring resources to them. What is the basic superiority of Romulan cloaks? All of them are battle cloaks. And they both want to sniff around them. Better to get glimpses of intact ones than the fragments they would pickup after blowing up the ships they are on.
The second point is that the massive ship yard and research facility called the Vault was abandoned by the Empire and Obisek reclaimed it. Through the coalition they are keeping it for the Romulan Republic.
What resources do they have. I think we went over that in the how they can have a flagship at all. They are no longer rag-tag refugees. They are now a nascent nation putting out their own roots. Eventually they will attempt to cast off the needs of support from the two nurturing nations.
Wouldn't the Tal' Shiar just blow up any ship yards they found?: Two thoughts on this, first is the tal shiar are terrible ship drivers. As shown by them getting their rears handed to them time and again by the PC. Why is that logical. The tal shiar are the civilian internal police force. IE the FBI of the Empire. Put them running a navy ship and see how well they will do. Secondly they were. Virinat was repairing ships, it was destroyed partly for this reason. (And had they come forward with that fact instead of the poorly fabricated weapons smuggling charge they would have done better publicly.) Since then they face coalition forces when they try and eliminate independent shipyards.
So, no need to apologize for breaking immersion.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
However, chrisbrown, if you want to use STO wiki as canon for STO then you have to accept this as well:
"Since the Battle of the Bassen Rift, both the Tal Shiar and the Romulan Republic have developed new variants based on the original ship design. The Scimitar-class, Falchion-class, and Tulwar-class of Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds represent the Romulan Republic?s latest iterations on this technology."
This reiterates my point, that the Falchion was a Romulan Republic revamp of the Scimitar, in collaboration with their new Reman allies.
To continue discussion on the Scimitar, however, yes, I agree we are both speculating. However, your references to two fighting brigades do not provide evidence of construction of high technology(for the time) but merely fighting prowess where none was expected. The Reman fighting prowess is not in question here, in fact I stated I believe they contributed to the tactical features of the design. However, the perfect cloak, engine components etc. are most likely Romulan, ships based on the Scimitar do not prove that they could have built the Scimitar on their own, only that they were able to build similar vessels after having the experience of building the first one. Also, the mogai was not built to be a superweapon, and not in secret, so they can't be expected to share technology, and they technology may only be deployable on a ship like the Scimitar. Evidence of this is the lack of perfect cloak on the three Reman built warbirds you pointed out, and also the lack of it in the Arkala, a joint ship as you've ceded.
Ok a few things. Thank you for a great debate. That said, you are correct According to the STO wiki the Falchion is at least a hybrid reman/romulan ship, at most, a full romulan copy of a reman ship. And seeing as it came from the STO:wiki I cant just throw it out. It must be accepted. On this point I concede, just as you must then concede that the Scimitar is, at least the original, a Reman ship that they constructed (Per the same STO:wiki) however, as I read and thought about our conversation I felt the need to put this in perspective.
We are talking about the RR flagship and whether the Scimitar is good to be a Flagship. Considering it IS reman, I think I have proven it is not however, you HAVE proven the FALCHiON is Romulan and this should be considerable as a flagship. I would like to add that the page you sourced, while saying it is the Romulan's "The Scimitar-class, Falchion-class, and Tulwar-class of Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds represent the Romulan Republic?s latest iterations on this technology. " This does not mean they made it, only that they own it. THIS point i would like to hold on to. Also on the same page, it says, "During the late 24th Century, the I.R.W. Scimitar was developed covertly by a group of Remans under the command of Praetor Shinzon, a clone of Jean-Luc Picard. " So i could still be said that at least the first Scimitar is 100% Reman.
If fact if the look up the word iterations, it loosey means, the repeating of a process. Repeating the process the Remans started with the Scimitar. THIS would suggest that this still a Reman ship, BUILT by romulans. as in, "Here is our Reman Dakka, you can make some too. Why cant they make THEIR OWN ROMULAN SHIP?" I now have questions before we continue.
1. Since the Falchion is romulan, AND of the RR, it stands to reason they CAN construct massive, newly desgined(as the falchion is)starships yes?
2. Would you guys concede that the Scimitar is all reman? I think I have proven at least this much.
3. The Falchion, built by romulans, maybe even designed by romulans IS a copy of a Reman ship. May we agree on this as well?
If yes to 1, This would mean the RR is capable of designing and building massive, powerful ships. If yes to 2, It would mean the Falchion IS romulan. But the the Scimitar, the prototype IS Reman. And thus at the very least, it is a Reman design at heart. If yes to 3, The romulans are copying a ship for their flagship?..
I would like to point out this as an inconsistency of the Romulan mindset. The prideful to the point ob arrogance Romulan COPYED a Reman ship when they could have designed a more romulan looking ship and used said copy as a representation of themselves?..
Really?
This does not sound like something they would do and thus I submit this:
The Falchion is a TEMPORARY flagship and will be used until a suitable ship is made. The Ar?kif/Ar?kala was not seen as ?suitable? for whatever reason. (Why I don?t know?I think it could have at least been a temp as well but I digress?)
So then, If we can agree on the above, I would, again like to ask the cryptic people to design a new SKIN for the dreadnoughts. Something more ?Romulan? in design. This would allow them to make some Cstore money while giving us a more romulan looking capitol ship while keeping the other dreadnoughts. It also would not break the game with a knew romulan uber ship because under the skin it is the same scimitar we have all had all along. Then don?t have to come up with ANYTHING other than the skin. The ship itself is done. No new consoles, no new anything. JUST THE SKIN. ONE NEW SKIN. That?s all im asking for.
I am even willing to submit my own design ideas to help the effort.
Bottomline is, the Ships, are at most 100% reman, at least Reman ship BUILT by romulans. (i will concede the latter.) If the romulans can built and redesign Reman ships, they could of, and SHOULD of built their own ship for their flag.
I wouldn't flag the Lleiset as being set in stone as to ship class. Just seeing it in one mission hardly makes it an immutable fact yet. Other notable ships have, in the past, had their ship class changed once Cryptic felt they had a good candidate to narrow it down to.
The U.S.S. Kirk, for example. I've seen it be an Excalibur-class, an Excelsior-class and even a Cheyenne-class in the past before it was more solidly set to Exeter-class.
Admittedly, I buy into all the arguments that the Dreadnought Warbirds are actually Reman designs. To me, the choice of the Ar'kif would have something fitting to it, since it has this glow of being the first real Romulan Republic ship. Otherwise, I'd be open to see another RRF ship design stand in as flagship rather than a Dreadnought Warbird too.
I wouldn't flag the Lleiset as being set in stone as to ship class. Just seeing it in one mission hardly makes it an immutable fact yet. Other notable ships have, in the past, had their ship class changed once Cryptic felt they had a good candidate to narrow it down to.
The U.S.S. Kirk, for example. I've seen it be an Excalibur-class, an Excelsior-class and even a Cheyenne-class in the past before it was more solidly set to Exeter-class.
Admittedly, I buy into all the arguments that the Dreadnought Warbirds are actually Reman designs. To me, the choice of the Ar'kif would have something fitting to it, since it has this glow of being the first real Romulan Republic ship. Otherwise, I'd be open to see another RRF ship design stand in as flagship rather than a Dreadnought Warbird too.
Personally, I find the 'Humans have human ship/Klingons have Klingon ship, therefore Romulans must have Romulan ship' argument to be... hmm, not sure what exactly, but obviously I'm not for it lol
And I say this with a similar example: every captain of a U.S.S Enterprise was human, from Kirk to Harrison to Garrett to Picard. However, that streak was broken with Shon of the Enterprise-F
And while I'm sure every previous Romulan flagship was of Romulan design, the R.R.W Lleiset is simply another broken streak by being Reman. Which imo, is not a bad thing (for both aspects)
Just my further take, considering it very likely that Tiaru Jarok and her ship will remain with us for quite awhile, despite this discussion XD
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Personally, I find the 'Humans have human ship/Klingons have Klingon ship, therefore Romulans must have Romulan ship' argument to be... hmm, not sure what exactly, but obviously I'm not for it lol
And I say this with a similar example: every captain of a U.S.S Enterprise was human, from Kirk to Harrison to Garrett to Picard. However, that streak was broken with Shon of the Enterprise-F
And while I'm sure every previous Romulan flagship was of Romulan design, the R.R.W Lleiset is simply another broken streak by being Reman. Which imo, is not a bad thing (for both aspects)
Just my further take, considering it very likely that Tiaru Jarok and her ship will remain with us for quite awhile, despite this discussion XD
THE KLINGONS LAUGH AT YOU!!! Simply because... every KDF flagship has been a klingon ship... flown by a klingon, used to kill lots of things that aren't klingon... and occasionally other klingons.
Long story short... THEY MAINTAIN THEIR STREAK!!!!
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
THE KLINGONS LAUGH AT YOU!!! Simply because... every KDF flagship has been a klingon ship... flown by a klingon, used to kill lots of things that aren't klingon... and occasionally other klingons.
Long story short... THEY MAINTAIN THEIR STREAK!!!!
That's one way of looking at it Lol
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
THE KLINGONS LAUGH AT YOU!!! Simply because... every KDF flagship has been a klingon ship... flown by a klingon, used to kill lots of things that aren't klingon... and occasionally other klingons.
Long story short... THEY MAINTAIN THEIR STREAK!!!!
Based on the pure lol factor, i almost want to make a kdf toon...lack og battle cloak prevents me...
Obisek was planning to kill civilians before we (the players) intervened.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Obisek was planning to kill civilians before we (the players) intervened.
And as he admitted, he did not enjoy it, but he would do what he had to do to ensure the Reman's freedom. And in either case, when it came down to it, he valued his people over the weapons (as seen in Coliseum).
Even considering his reluctant willingness for extreme methods, Obisek is not so simply written off as a terrorist imo. Not to mention, as was noted, pure terrorism is just that; to create fear. He fought a guerrilla war to ensure his people's freedom, which is fairly noble
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
In truth, who are terrorist and who are freedom fighters is determined by the victor. History is written by the victors are all. Id bet brittians accounts of the 1700s differ from the US's. I digress, we are off topic. Ar'kala for flag?
.....my god...i used "terrorist," "freedom fighter," and "US" all in one post.....
Everyone say/wave hello to the NSA.
Okay, now let's step outside STO's shoddy writing/plot development, and your own apologetic excuses for it.
You seem to have a very narrow definition of terrorism, if that's what you truly believe. The primary objective of terrorism is to create an atmosphere of fear. Whether it's a military, or civilian target is not a factor. What IS a factor, is that the target is high profile.
Notice the forward slash dividing terrorist and freedom fighter. Either applies, depending what side of the fence the observer happens to be on. No Obisek was not portrayed killing civilians. He did however, purchase banned weaponry, and willfully attacked the assets of another sovereign nation.
In most, if not all civil wars, who ever has control of the armed forces, is the guy that wins. By "wins" I mean controls the government, and finances of the new state. The scimitar that you describe as the flagship of the flotilla, would've been regarded as a high priority asset, and as such the Tal Shiar would have moved quickly to seize it, even before open hostilities commenced.
Even if Obisek somehow did have the resources to defend the Vault from the Tal Shiar, why would he spend even some of those resources, on the Romulans? A race of overseers that forced his people to dig mines for so long, they can't even walk around in daylight anymore. It takes more than a simple "Sorry 'bout that, but can ya help us out now, the Tal Shiar wants to enslave us".
The Federation, and the Empire, are both currently engaged in protracted wars, not only with each other, but seemingly with everybody else in the galaxy as well. That either would have the massive resources to pour into a rebel faction that may not be viable in a few weeks, rather than their own war effort is highly suspect. Cloaking technology or not. Another curiosity of civil war, is that outside factions generally, withhold aid until someone gets the upper hand. Then, that's the guy you do business with. Nobody wants to back a losing horse.
The Tal Shiar are less like the FBI, and more like Hitler's Shutzstaffel, or the Soviet KGB. The waffen SS was the combat arm of the SS. They had their own military assets that were entirely theirs. Every Soviet military asset had KGB agents inserted at key points to, ensure, the loyalty of the officers, and make sure discipline was enforced.
Having taken this all into account, I submit a slightly, more plausible outcome to the Romulan civil war, and the fate of any "flagships" it may be in possession of.
The Tal Shiar aware of the growing faction of malcontents in the Empire, and the weakness of the Senate, inserts key personnel into all facets off the government that will need to be seized, well ahead of actual hostilities. When hostilities do break out, perhaps even engineered by the Tal Shiar, These agents move quickly to seize all military, civil, and financial assets of the crumbling, Empire. Because the Tal Shiar are basically involved with the day to day running of the Empire at this point, the military sides with the Tal Shiar over the farmers. Deals are struck with Commanders, and rewards are handed out. The purges begin. The malcontents are either imprisoned, executed, or driven off world. Freedom fighters still exist, but they have had to get small, hide deep down in the cracks. They certainly can't afford the attention that flying around in a scimitar class dreadnought would bring to their whereabouts. All I'm sayin'.
There is a problem with saying that causing fear and attacking a high value target makes one a terrorist. In that the label then applies to the militaries of nations. They go after high profile targets, and if they have been doing their jobs right. Then opposing sides fear them.
I chose the definition of the Tal Shiar as the FBI specifically because I recall that there was also a military internal police force. The name escapes me. (It is a touch early here.) Hopefully Protogoth will illuminate that one again. Since they were internal and civilian, I believe my statements about them being clumsy ship operators and military tacticians stands.
However you have put me to a wall on one fact. I cannot say why Obisek chose to ally with the Romulan Republic. All the direct contacts with him previously indicated he wished to be independent. All I can do is state the shown fact that he did ally.
Oh and on the subject of targeting. He comes off as a shrewd tactician to me. You never once find an agent of his trying to plant the thalaron weapon everyone assumes he is going to use. You go there because he has an interest in the mine and you need to find out what and why. He is claiming thalaron weapons the same reason countries pursue nuclear ones today. So he will be listened to and not dictated to. The threat of them being around is a deterrent. (In this they may need to cleanup the writing as it is ambiguous.)
And now back to why have the Tal Shiar not claimed the Scimitar for themselves. That is an excellent question. Since they do not field them one supposes they do not have the plans. Infact the only two you see outside the republic are Sela's and Donatra's. Sela could easily have taken the plans and hidden them so she would fly in the most powerful vessel in the empire. The noted plan of hers and the Tal Shiar was to starve the citizenry so they would be so weak they would be beholden to them. (A poor plan in my opinion as it fuels resentment and weakens your own position as well.) So her keeping her allies weaker than her fits the pattern.
There is one piece of the writing I cannot reconcile. Prior to LoR, Sela was noted as being in conflict with the Tal Shiar. As though they served different masters. Obisek even notes this as the case. Yet she over saw one of the invasions and beamed you aboard her ship. Then joins Hakeev in questioning the PC. (Not flinching when he mentions thier masters) And finally arguing with him on the surface. So prior to LoR we assume she was wrestling with the Tal Shiar for control. Now it seems she colluded with them from the beginning. Going all the way back to the destruction of Hobus.
(Also I have no way of saying why Donatra is in a Scimitar.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
In truth, who are terrorist and who are freedom fighters is determined by the victor. History is written by the victors are all. Id bet brittians accounts of the 1700s differ from the US's. I digress, we are off topic. Ar'kala for flag?
.....my god...i used "terrorist," "freedom fighter," and "US" all in one post.....
Everyone say/wave hello to the NSA.
the U.S. Department of Defense considers lawful protests a form of "Low-Level terrorism"...so if you ever "low-level terrorised" anyone you're probably on their list anyways.:(
OT, while it's still not the most popular ship around I personally feel that if we look at the "mold" of flagships on the other sides the Fleet Ha'apax fits the role better than any other ship the RR has. It's large, has a UNI LtC. and is supposedly more advanced than the D'D if we believe the old LoR Blog #3.
The Ha'apax Advanced Warbird represents the latest developments in Romulan technology. Larger than even the mighty D'deridex, it has superior firepower and even greater hull strength. While slow to maneuver, the Ha'apax is a juggernaut on the battlefield, capable of withstanding tremendous damage while unleashing its weapons on its foes.
Problem is they never altered the descriptions so I presume the "more firepower" thingy is based on the fact that the D'D retro was originally supposed to have the same BO layout as the Galaxy-R...something that didn't go over very well.;)
Most, civilized countries go to war as a last resort. This is because wars hit everybody where it counts: the wallet. So when you are unable to make the other guy see your point, the only remaining alternative is to sort things out the old fashioned way. You declare war, and attack his ability to resist you, until he capitulates, and asks for terms. You do this by destroying his ability to carry on the war, in other words, you attempt to destroy his military. The fact that this creates terror and fear, is already understood, it's a war.
The Luftwaffe foolishly, tried to change horses mid-race, by going from attacking military assets (the RAF) on the strategic level, to a terrorist war on the civilian population of Great Britain, by bombing cities. This was done to try and get the civilian population to apply pressure on the government to end the war. The same could not be said of the RAF/USAF bombing of German cities, where the bombings were focused on German manufacturing that affected the Fatherland's ability to carry on the war, and civilian losses were simply collateral damage. As an old Hindu proverb says: When two elephants fight, the grass suffers.
There certainly is a case for military assets being used to create fear, and terror, in an enemy army. Snipers, although not really viable on the strategic level, can cause major psychological damage to an enemy, by reinforcing the notion that anybody, anywhere, can die at any time. The VC also achieved this in Viet Nam. Soldiers would talk about the "1000 yard stare", where if a GI looked in any direction, within a 1000 yards there was probably a concealed, VC watching, and preparing to kill him.
Terrorists, on the other hand, are not officially recognized by any country, and often have no legitimate source of income, beyond private funding. They expressly attack high profile civilian and military targets to create an atmosphere of paranoia, and fear, that no one is safe, in a country that has no formal declaration of war. War only happens between nations. You can't really declare war on fundamentalism beyond saying, "we are at war with terrorism", because terrorism, is in effect, a form of fundamentalism, where war is at it's heart, nationalism. The Taliban originally began as freedom fighters, and evolved into terrorists, after driving the Soviets from Afghanistan.
These are the differences between terrorists, and soldiers. Again, ultimately it depends on the beholder.
Again, The Tal Shiar do not crew the ships themselves, they just have to have the loyalty of the ship's commanders. The Soviets would accomplish this by placing a KGB officer in the staff of a unit commander, or aboard a naval vessel. Usually this agent would already be part of the Soviet military. In the Soviet infantry during WWII, a couple of KGB agents would march behind the infantry during a charge, shooting anyone that routed. If in the eyes of the fleet, the Tal Shiar have positioned themselves as the heir to the Empire, that's all that matters. Haakeev doesn't actually fly the ship himself. The same way Darth Vader, although being an exceptional Force sensitive pilot, doesn't actually fly the Executor. The imperial fleet does. Hitler didn't personally lead his armies in battle, the Field Marshals of the Wehrmacht did that. The Waffen SS were units composed of crack soldiers, with the best equipment, that were seeded throughout the Wehrmacht to ensure loyalty to Hitler.
Near as I can figure Sela was in cahoots with Haakeev until she became directly implicated, then tried to duck out, and make Haakeev into a rogue, patsy. But again this is what I was able to glean from Cryptic's shoddy writing, the perfect example of which, was that whole brainwashing episode.
I will go with the crew of the ships could at least mostly be imperial military. But we do see Tal Shiar operatives commanding them. So still tactically poor choices. By the time the Romulan Republic is fielding a flagship they are a recognized governing force. Recognized by two outside parties. Only the imperial remnant controlled by the Tal Shiar fails to recognize them.
So after khitomer they are definitely not terrorists if they need a lack of recognition.
I can see how Obisek and D'tan got their initial ships. They are showing the Empire reeling like the former USSR after the wall came down. Greedy officers were selling off military hardware as fast as they could get some cash. So most of the ships seen by those two (at the time) rag tag groups makes sense.
Most. The two ships I cannot explain: Dhelan, and Haakona. Neither of these ships is flown by the Tal shiar or the empire. (Except sort of the Dhelan as it is the basis of the adapted destroyer. . . .)
It just seems to me that after the founding of New Romulus, it is possible for them to create a flagship. After all they have space they are nominally in control of. The Jouret system is not exactly right next door to new Romulus after all.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Can someone explain why we need specific flagships in the game, as I have stated previously, a flagship is simply the ship on which the flag officer resides, it is never a specific class or type of ship heck you could have a shuttlecraft being a flag ship if the officer so decided. The feds have the ody, which is their latest line ship and therefore has been chosen to be the ship of the flag officer, the KDF have the bort for the same reason and the roms have the scimi again for the same reasons, none of them are Flagships by any deffintion other than they are the hulls chosen by the flag officer of the respective fleets. if people want a specific flagship for the Romulan sub faction, then by rights the same would have to be applied to the Feds and KDF, otherwise it would be unballanced if one faction suddenly got a new ship dedicated as a flagship. (personaly I dont see the need, I play all 3 factions and have never encountered any situation where I think, god I need a flagship realy bad here)
Jorhana Kreig: KDF, Tal'is: Romulan Fed, Shona'a: Romulan KDF, Johan Paul Kreig: Fed
Can someone explain why we need specific flagships in the game, as I have stated previously, a flagship is simply the ship on which the flag officer resides, it is never a specific class or type of ship heck you could have a shuttlecraft being a flag ship if the officer so decided. The feds have the ody, which is their latest line ship and therefore has been chosen to be the ship of the flag officer, the KDF have the bort for the same reason and the roms have the scimi again for the same reasons, none of them are Flagships by any deffintion other than they are the hulls chosen by the flag officer of the respective fleets. if people want a specific flagship for the Romulan sub faction, then by rights the same would have to be applied to the Feds and KDF, otherwise it would be unballanced if one faction suddenly got a new ship dedicated as a flagship. (personaly I dont see the need, I play all 3 factions and have never encountered any situation where I think, god I need a flagship realy bad here)
First they do not put flag officers on the ships in Star Trek. The Enterprise has been the leading edge vessel technologically and the competition to be the captain and her crew strenuous. It is supposed to represent the best and brightest of the Star Fleet. And she was considered the flagship of the Federation even though she rarely ever held a flag rank officer aboard. They chose that ship and her captain to show the flag and be a symbol of their ideals.
The KDF Flagship was shown to also be the leading edge design of the empire. But this ship carried the combined military leader and ferried the Chancellor into battle. So was a mix of the traditional flagship and the federation ideal.
By the time in STO the flagship is again on all fronts the vessel to show the worth and merit of the people it represents. If this were a single player game, with the list of accomplishments the player gains. By the time you were near end game the PC would be the captain of said flagship. They can't do that in an MMO as then everyone would be flying the Enterprise. Literally. So to keep the status quo they have someone you have not heard of gain the honour while you continue to do the work horse material.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
fair enough, a valid responce to my comments, however I still dont see the need for a dedicated and specilist Flagship, as you say the ships in the star trek universe were chosen as flagships due to their superior abilities etc, this is fine, my issue is with people saying that STO needs a dedicated flagship for the romulans (no memntion of the other factions, even though they have no dedicated flagships either), why do we need such ships other than to give us something new and shiney to spend our zen on.
Jorhana Kreig: KDF, Tal'is: Romulan Fed, Shona'a: Romulan KDF, Johan Paul Kreig: Fed
Comments
I disagree. I have already posted sources which state, NOT used on screen lines, that the scimitar is reman. Not romulan. That said i DO see what youre saying however, just because the remans got ideas from romulans and then made reman copies, that doesnt mean as a reman made copy, its romulan. The chinese copy many things but the things they make, like the scimitar, uses no components of the orginal.
Exactly. Remans may have had Romulan tech, but that does not make the ship itself Romulan.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Confused... Are you agreeing that the Scimitar, while copying Romulan tech, may not have ANY original Romulan tech within her? If so, i agree with this. To illustrate:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2008/12/19/bmw-loses-court-battle-to-chinese-x5-clone/
Nope BWM that is not your car....
direct replies in bold.
Sir, you cannot throw out a source simply because it disagrees with you and doing so shows poor debating skills(no offense or disrespect intended.) In my wall of text, i mentioned points that suggest your side was right and then i brought up my own points that discredited those points. you side continues to press your OPINION that the remans could not have constructed their own ships. This is an error because they did. Three of them in fact and that is if we ONLY use Memory Alpha as a source. If we include the Star Trek Online wiki, the Scimitar's own page admits to it being a REMAN desinged ship. That alone should end the debate.
Broken down by the numbers, you have read the Star Trek Online game, concerning the Ship in question, in the Star Trek Online game, seen that is says the ship is Reman and on you own, decided, "the makers of the game are wrong about a ship in a game THEY made. I dont care what memory alpha says, they didnt make ship because they were stupid slaves and didnt have the ability."
To quote a vulcan, your logic is flawed. To say the Remans were incapable so such a feat is insulting to the remans. If we are to use United States history as an analog, many times have those who would be called "slaves" been underestimated. Many times where those who where told they could not perform, did they prove the naysayers wrong. See below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Soldier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen
In many situations, they did better than those who would look down on them. I say that to say it is completely within the realm of possibility that the Remans DID make a ship which could surpass Romulan Tech. In fact, according to Star Trek Online wiki, that ship is called "Scimitar"
I will close with this:
The Reman warbird Scimitar was a massive, heavily-armed warship. It was constructed under the command of Shinzon as part of a secret plot to overthrow the Romulan Senate, defeat the United Federation of Planets, and liberate the subjugated natives of Remus.
taken from Memory Alpha. pay attention to that first line.....
EDIT: Also after reading the Reman p[age of memory alpha, seen here:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Reman
A reman colony from Countdown was included in game adding validation to Countdown itself being used as a source. That said we cant take countdown apart and pick and choose what parts of it we accept and which we dont. ALL of countdown must be included because the Crateris, colony is in game. That said, if we must accept the Crateris colony, we must accept countdown. if we must accpet countdown then the remans DO have the capability to build their own ships and it is then completely possible that they could have built the scimitar.
now again.
Federation get human made ship.
KDF gets Klingon made ship.
Romulans get Reman made.....
Make the Flagship an Ar'kala and get it over with....
Now the facts:
The Remans CAN and HAVE constructed their own ships.
NO where on the memory alpha Scimitar page does it confirm that romulans helped in the Scimitar's construction and it is refered to as "The Reman Warbird Scimitar"
those are just the facts if we are only to consider Memory alpha as canon. You cant just throw that out so would you like to address these facts or concede?
However, chrisbrown, if you want to use STO wiki as canon for STO then you have to accept this as well:
"Since the Battle of the Bassen Rift, both the Tal Shiar and the Romulan Republic have developed new variants based on the original ship design. The Scimitar-class, Falchion-class, and Tulwar-class of Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds represent the Romulan Republic?s latest iterations on this technology."
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Falchion_Dreadnought_Warbird
This reiterates my point, that the Falchion was a Romulan Republic revamp of the Scimitar, in collaboration with their new Reman allies.
To continue discussion on the Scimitar, however, yes, I agree we are both speculating. However, your references to two fighting brigades do not provide evidence of construction of high technology(for the time) but merely fighting prowess where none was expected. The Reman fighting prowess is not in question here, in fact I stated I believe they contributed to the tactical features of the design. However, the perfect cloak, engine components etc. are most likely Romulan, ships based on the Scimitar do not prove that they could have built the Scimitar on their own, only that they were able to build similar vessels after having the experience of building the first one. Also, the mogai was not built to be a superweapon, and not in secret, so they can't be expected to share technology, and they technology may only be deployable on a ship like the Scimitar. Evidence of this is the lack of perfect cloak on the three Reman built warbirds you pointed out, and also the lack of it in the Arkala, a joint ship as you've ceded.
Let's dissect this a moment and put a little perspective on it.
Space ship and aerodynamics: Fair point, though it does seem to violate everyone's basic design element except the borg.
How is it possible for a faction of terrorist/freedom fighters to have flagships: First, the definition of terrorist does not fit for Obisek nor the Romulan Republic. To be a terrorist they need to strike at a civilian target with large collateral damage. The group that fits that description is the Tal Shiar.
How can they have a flagship? First they have a unique vessel serving as the said command ship in the flotilla. It is their only one and presumably it was taken from the yards with the designs when the senate fell and chaos ensued in the star empire. How can they build new ones? Two methods. First is that both the federation and the Klingon empire are pouring resources to them. What is the basic superiority of Romulan cloaks? All of them are battle cloaks. And they both want to sniff around them. Better to get glimpses of intact ones than the fragments they would pickup after blowing up the ships they are on.
The second point is that the massive ship yard and research facility called the Vault was abandoned by the Empire and Obisek reclaimed it. Through the coalition they are keeping it for the Romulan Republic.
What resources do they have. I think we went over that in the how they can have a flagship at all. They are no longer rag-tag refugees. They are now a nascent nation putting out their own roots. Eventually they will attempt to cast off the needs of support from the two nurturing nations.
Wouldn't the Tal' Shiar just blow up any ship yards they found?: Two thoughts on this, first is the tal shiar are terrible ship drivers. As shown by them getting their rears handed to them time and again by the PC. Why is that logical. The tal shiar are the civilian internal police force. IE the FBI of the Empire. Put them running a navy ship and see how well they will do. Secondly they were. Virinat was repairing ships, it was destroyed partly for this reason. (And had they come forward with that fact instead of the poorly fabricated weapons smuggling charge they would have done better publicly.) Since then they face coalition forces when they try and eliminate independent shipyards.
So, no need to apologize for breaking immersion.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Ok a few things. Thank you for a great debate. That said, you are correct According to the STO wiki the Falchion is at least a hybrid reman/romulan ship, at most, a full romulan copy of a reman ship. And seeing as it came from the STO:wiki I cant just throw it out. It must be accepted. On this point I concede, just as you must then concede that the Scimitar is, at least the original, a Reman ship that they constructed (Per the same STO:wiki) however, as I read and thought about our conversation I felt the need to put this in perspective.
We are talking about the RR flagship and whether the Scimitar is good to be a Flagship. Considering it IS reman, I think I have proven it is not however, you HAVE proven the FALCHiON is Romulan and this should be considerable as a flagship. I would like to add that the page you sourced, while saying it is the Romulan's "The Scimitar-class, Falchion-class, and Tulwar-class of Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds represent the Romulan Republic?s latest iterations on this technology. " This does not mean they made it, only that they own it. THIS point i would like to hold on to. Also on the same page, it says, "During the late 24th Century, the I.R.W. Scimitar was developed covertly by a group of Remans under the command of Praetor Shinzon, a clone of Jean-Luc Picard. " So i could still be said that at least the first Scimitar is 100% Reman.
If fact if the look up the word iterations, it loosey means, the repeating of a process. Repeating the process the Remans started with the Scimitar. THIS would suggest that this still a Reman ship, BUILT by romulans. as in, "Here is our Reman Dakka, you can make some too. Why cant they make THEIR OWN ROMULAN SHIP?" I now have questions before we continue.
1. Since the Falchion is romulan, AND of the RR, it stands to reason they CAN construct massive, newly desgined(as the falchion is)starships yes?
2. Would you guys concede that the Scimitar is all reman? I think I have proven at least this much.
3. The Falchion, built by romulans, maybe even designed by romulans IS a copy of a Reman ship. May we agree on this as well?
If yes to 1, This would mean the RR is capable of designing and building massive, powerful ships. If yes to 2, It would mean the Falchion IS romulan. But the the Scimitar, the prototype IS Reman. And thus at the very least, it is a Reman design at heart. If yes to 3, The romulans are copying a ship for their flagship?..
I would like to point out this as an inconsistency of the Romulan mindset. The prideful to the point ob arrogance Romulan COPYED a Reman ship when they could have designed a more romulan looking ship and used said copy as a representation of themselves?..
Really?
This does not sound like something they would do and thus I submit this:
The Falchion is a TEMPORARY flagship and will be used until a suitable ship is made. The Ar?kif/Ar?kala was not seen as ?suitable? for whatever reason. (Why I don?t know?I think it could have at least been a temp as well but I digress?)
So then, If we can agree on the above, I would, again like to ask the cryptic people to design a new SKIN for the dreadnoughts. Something more ?Romulan? in design. This would allow them to make some Cstore money while giving us a more romulan looking capitol ship while keeping the other dreadnoughts. It also would not break the game with a knew romulan uber ship because under the skin it is the same scimitar we have all had all along. Then don?t have to come up with ANYTHING other than the skin. The ship itself is done. No new consoles, no new anything. JUST THE SKIN. ONE NEW SKIN. That?s all im asking for.
I am even willing to submit my own design ideas to help the effort.
Bottomline is, the Ships, are at most 100% reman, at least Reman ship BUILT by romulans. (i will concede the latter.) If the romulans can built and redesign Reman ships, they could of, and SHOULD of built their own ship for their flag.
New skin or Ar'kala for Flagship please.
EDIT:see the red text.
The U.S.S. Kirk, for example. I've seen it be an Excalibur-class, an Excelsior-class and even a Cheyenne-class in the past before it was more solidly set to Exeter-class.
Admittedly, I buy into all the arguments that the Dreadnought Warbirds are actually Reman designs. To me, the choice of the Ar'kif would have something fitting to it, since it has this glow of being the first real Romulan Republic ship. Otherwise, I'd be open to see another RRF ship design stand in as flagship rather than a Dreadnought Warbird too.
Then i would ask for a reskin and go with that.
And I say this with a similar example: every captain of a U.S.S Enterprise was human, from Kirk to Harrison to Garrett to Picard. However, that streak was broken with Shon of the Enterprise-F
And while I'm sure every previous Romulan flagship was of Romulan design, the R.R.W Lleiset is simply another broken streak by being Reman. Which imo, is not a bad thing (for both aspects)
Just my further take, considering it very likely that Tiaru Jarok and her ship will remain with us for quite awhile, despite this discussion XD
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
THE KLINGONS LAUGH AT YOU!!! Simply because... every KDF flagship has been a klingon ship... flown by a klingon, used to kill lots of things that aren't klingon... and occasionally other klingons.
Long story short... THEY MAINTAIN THEIR STREAK!!!!
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Based on the pure lol factor, i almost want to make a kdf toon...lack og battle cloak prevents me...
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Even considering his reluctant willingness for extreme methods, Obisek is not so simply written off as a terrorist imo. Not to mention, as was noted, pure terrorism is just that; to create fear. He fought a guerrilla war to ensure his people's freedom, which is fairly noble
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
.....my god...i used "terrorist," "freedom fighter," and "US" all in one post.....
Everyone say/wave hello to the NSA.
There is a problem with saying that causing fear and attacking a high value target makes one a terrorist. In that the label then applies to the militaries of nations. They go after high profile targets, and if they have been doing their jobs right. Then opposing sides fear them.
I chose the definition of the Tal Shiar as the FBI specifically because I recall that there was also a military internal police force. The name escapes me. (It is a touch early here.) Hopefully Protogoth will illuminate that one again. Since they were internal and civilian, I believe my statements about them being clumsy ship operators and military tacticians stands.
However you have put me to a wall on one fact. I cannot say why Obisek chose to ally with the Romulan Republic. All the direct contacts with him previously indicated he wished to be independent. All I can do is state the shown fact that he did ally.
Oh and on the subject of targeting. He comes off as a shrewd tactician to me. You never once find an agent of his trying to plant the thalaron weapon everyone assumes he is going to use. You go there because he has an interest in the mine and you need to find out what and why. He is claiming thalaron weapons the same reason countries pursue nuclear ones today. So he will be listened to and not dictated to. The threat of them being around is a deterrent. (In this they may need to cleanup the writing as it is ambiguous.)
And now back to why have the Tal Shiar not claimed the Scimitar for themselves. That is an excellent question. Since they do not field them one supposes they do not have the plans. Infact the only two you see outside the republic are Sela's and Donatra's. Sela could easily have taken the plans and hidden them so she would fly in the most powerful vessel in the empire. The noted plan of hers and the Tal Shiar was to starve the citizenry so they would be so weak they would be beholden to them. (A poor plan in my opinion as it fuels resentment and weakens your own position as well.) So her keeping her allies weaker than her fits the pattern.
There is one piece of the writing I cannot reconcile. Prior to LoR, Sela was noted as being in conflict with the Tal Shiar. As though they served different masters. Obisek even notes this as the case. Yet she over saw one of the invasions and beamed you aboard her ship. Then joins Hakeev in questioning the PC. (Not flinching when he mentions thier masters) And finally arguing with him on the surface. So prior to LoR we assume she was wrestling with the Tal Shiar for control. Now it seems she colluded with them from the beginning. Going all the way back to the destruction of Hobus.
(Also I have no way of saying why Donatra is in a Scimitar.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I'll just leave this here:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/12/06/when-conservatives-branded-nelson-mandela-a-terrorist/
so...Nelson Mandela was a terrorist.
Oh and to make you more comfortable:
https://www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-challenges-defense-department-personnel-policy-regard-lawful-protests-%E2%80%9Clow-le
the U.S. Department of Defense considers lawful protests a form of "Low-Level terrorism"...so if you ever "low-level terrorised" anyone you're probably on their list anyways.:(
OT, while it's still not the most popular ship around I personally feel that if we look at the "mold" of flagships on the other sides the Fleet Ha'apax fits the role better than any other ship the RR has. It's large, has a UNI LtC. and is supposedly more advanced than the D'D if we believe the old LoR Blog #3.
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=858671
Problem is they never altered the descriptions so I presume the "more firepower" thingy is based on the fact that the D'D retro was originally supposed to have the same BO layout as the Galaxy-R...something that didn't go over very well.;)
So the and Vesta & Kumari are also flagships because they're 3-pack ships?;)
Hey no fair! The feds get three flag ships! :eek:
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I will go with the crew of the ships could at least mostly be imperial military. But we do see Tal Shiar operatives commanding them. So still tactically poor choices. By the time the Romulan Republic is fielding a flagship they are a recognized governing force. Recognized by two outside parties. Only the imperial remnant controlled by the Tal Shiar fails to recognize them.
So after khitomer they are definitely not terrorists if they need a lack of recognition.
I can see how Obisek and D'tan got their initial ships. They are showing the Empire reeling like the former USSR after the wall came down. Greedy officers were selling off military hardware as fast as they could get some cash. So most of the ships seen by those two (at the time) rag tag groups makes sense.
Most. The two ships I cannot explain: Dhelan, and Haakona. Neither of these ships is flown by the Tal shiar or the empire. (Except sort of the Dhelan as it is the basis of the adapted destroyer. . . .)
It just seems to me that after the founding of New Romulus, it is possible for them to create a flagship. After all they have space they are nominally in control of. The Jouret system is not exactly right next door to new Romulus after all.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
First they do not put flag officers on the ships in Star Trek. The Enterprise has been the leading edge vessel technologically and the competition to be the captain and her crew strenuous. It is supposed to represent the best and brightest of the Star Fleet. And she was considered the flagship of the Federation even though she rarely ever held a flag rank officer aboard. They chose that ship and her captain to show the flag and be a symbol of their ideals.
The KDF Flagship was shown to also be the leading edge design of the empire. But this ship carried the combined military leader and ferried the Chancellor into battle. So was a mix of the traditional flagship and the federation ideal.
By the time in STO the flagship is again on all fronts the vessel to show the worth and merit of the people it represents. If this were a single player game, with the list of accomplishments the player gains. By the time you were near end game the PC would be the captain of said flagship. They can't do that in an MMO as then everyone would be flying the Enterprise. Literally. So to keep the status quo they have someone you have not heard of gain the honour while you continue to do the work horse material.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.