"Wyatt Earp: What makes someone like PvP, Doc? What makes them do the things they do?
Doc Holliday: A PvP'er has got a great big hole, right in the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or steal enough, or inflict enough pain to ever fill it.
Wyatt Earp: What does he need?
Doc Holliday: Revenge.
Wyatt Earp: For what?
Doc Holliday: Bein' born."
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
PVP is the life force of modern gaming. Moderate upgrades can only do the game good.
Even if moderate upgrades could be worked in without disrupting the rest of the game or forcing PVE equipment/power changes based upon PVP nitpicking, the "Life force of modern gaming" thing is laughably pretentious. And incorrect.
There's probably one big thing that would make PVP more attractive to casual players: A better matchmaking system, tied to some sort of dynamic ranking so that people with suboptimal builds don't get put opposite somebody who plays PVP exclusively and has minmaxed his ship to where he could one-shot a unimatrix.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
By the way, I am just going to put this out here for the people using "waste of resources" as an excuse.
In any typical developmental studio there are multiple departments and dozens of programmers. Youd be surprised at how easy it can be to divert manpower.
Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing, as there is nothing being added, merely reworks and recycles. The only resource at hand is manpower/labor, and realistically that is minimal due to the ability to work on multiple projects at the same time.
Those of you who never worked in the industry or have no real grasp of how game development is done, need to really understand that a PvP revamp would be so ridiculously cheap for this company (compared to putting the whole studio on crunch mode for yet another lockbox ship) that it would be a nearly 100 percent profit investment to them. Regardless of the size of said profit.
The best time to do said revamp would be a generic game wide bugbash (which has been needed for a while anyway). Since systems and functions would already be being looked at, adding in a couple extra hours here and there to tune them for player versus player gameplay should be a walk in the park.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I just happened upon this thread and thought that I could add something to it. Being the forum newbie that I am, I couldn't really get in on the heated part, but hopefully someone will see this post.
I'm going to give a short disclaimer here for what I am about to say, because I warn you, it is controversial.
What I see in this thread is much less of a problem with the PVP and PVE communities and more of a general problem that exists in our society that has propagated and ingrained itself in the way that we see one another. Like it or not, I see an unwillingness to consider another person's viewpoint, as shown by a lot of scapegoating and personal attacks on both sides.
Our society I believe has taught us more and more so that "winning" an argument or getting the last word is more important than trying to cooperate to solve a problem. In this sense, there is a stark difference between debate and "word wars". Trying to hurt one another is not going to solve anything. I would point to American Congress as of late as a good example of this, but in good taste to Americans, I won't since I'm not qualified to do so since I don't live there.
Rather, I think that really the solution to this is continuous strife to consider aspects of both viewpoints.
A few things I can point to in this thread as the concerns of PVP and PVE:
PVE:
-Is mad because there is the feeling that PVPers always nerf all of the useful things
-Is frustrated because PVP is incredibly hard to get into and start, despite things like PVP boot camp.
-Finds PVP pointless because it isn't interesting.
PVP:
-Is concerned for player numbers and sad because many people often leave PVP after dabbling.
-Tired of grinding in PVE in order to obtain advantages in PVP.
-Wants more than anything in the world to see PVP succeed so that it can be a more enjoyable experience for everyone.
Looking at it like this, I don't see selfishness or hatred at all between the two, but rather a fundamental dysfunction in the game.
A few solutions to solve these problems that I would propose are:
-Making consoles / special abilities function differently for a player or an NPC.
-Removing the artificial barrier of entry by Standardizing PVP gear and invalidating reputation stats.
-Creating more maps for PVP, or use crowd sourcing like the foundry.
These are just a few of the numerous things that could be done to enhance the PVP experience for everyone so that BOTH the "majority" and "minority" are happy. In this situation, PVErs get to keep their mob busting consoles, and they can be balanced for PVP accordingly. PVP would see a lot more newcomers, since a fresh level 50 could hop right in knowing that gear and passives were more or less equal among each ship type. PVP would also get new content with arguably minimal dev art team time, since players can pick that up.
All in all, the potential for this games PVP system is definitely there, and it definitely does not have to come at the expense of PVErs.
Whew, there it was. If there are any errors, forgive me. I used google translate from French to write this.
Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing, as there is nothing being added, merely reworks and recycles. The only resource at hand is manpower/labor, and realistically that is minimal due to the ability to work on multiple projects at the same time.
Bwahahahahaha
Those of you who never worked in the industry
Clearly, you fall into this category, if you think "Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing."
Stop embarrassing yourself.
a PvP revamp would be so ridiculously cheap for this company
Cryptic (and anyone else with real experience) disagrees.
But if you think it's so easy, the job openings are that way
>
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Clearly, you fall into this category, if you think "Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing."
Stop embarrassing yourself.
Cryptic (and anyone else with real experience) disagrees.
But if you think it's so easy, the job openings are that way
>
Im not in the market for a job, I actually develop games for a living. Thats how I know these things. Youre such a cynic. Maybe if you knew half of what i do about the inner workings youd realize how daft you sound. Running concurrence in function auditing = zero cost. You simply rework two systems simultaneously. it really isnt hard considering they generally all revolve around the same few functions that handle everything else.
Go listen to Geko's interview, he even flat out states this. Flat out admits the only reason they havent done it yet is because the suits are constantly demanding they only work on new things. Are you really this clueless?
Whats even funnier is they have been doing this all along. You cant add new things without fixing concurrences anyway, since you get even MORE BUGS if you dont. Its all on a prioritization system of which neither you nor I are privy to.
But hey, keep laughing it up, ignorance is bliss.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I don't see the PVE'ers to be the only ones to fear a PVP revamp .
In fact I think PVP'ers fear a PVP revamp more ... if in fact there is a true revamp and not just a new coat of paint .
Because IMHO if a true revamp comes to light , one that is motivated by correct intentions (meaning that the intent is to get more ppl to actually engage in PVP and see it for the fun it can really be) -- for that to take place , there can be no other choice but to put everyone on the same equal footing .
No more min-maxing .
No more 'super-special' secret builds .
No more new powers with every lockbox .
In fact , (again IMHO) -- Cryptic should embrace their "dumbed down STO" vision to the Nth degree to get every dumb joe to get out there and pew-pew .
Right now you send dumb Joe into PVP and he gets stomped (and let's not go into the list of reasons) .
If you want to sidestep that , then PVP in this game has to be simple to understand cookie cutter powers (I'd say no more then 5 powers tops , or the equal of todays Lvl 3 PVP) .
But no one wants that .
Not really .
Cryptic will loose their de-facto QA team (the PVP forums bunch) .
And the PVP forums bunch will never willingly let go of the ability to min-max and tweak and keybind their stuff to be "better" or "superior" .
And ultimately , if a real PVP revamp will come up on the horizon , the choice will be between making PVP "easy" (based on skill alone) , or "hard" continue down the road of min-maxing & reputation & unbalanced game & TRIBBLE PVE for the sake of PVP .
And this is why I don't think a true PVP revamp is coming .
Cryptic says that it "loves to learn" ?
I wonder what have they learned from their own PVEVP mission that was introduced in Neverwinter roughly 7 months ago ?
I don't see the PVE'ers to be the only ones to fear a PVP revamp .
In fact I think PVP'ers fear a PVP revamp more ... if in fact there is a true revamp and not just a new coat of paint .
Because IMHO if a true revamp comes to light , one that is motivated by correct intentions (meaning that the intent is to get more ppl to actually engage in PVP and see it for the fun it can really be) -- for that to take place , there can be no other choice but to put everyone on the same equal footing .
No more min-maxing .
No more 'super-special' secret builds .
No more new powers with every lockbox .
In fact , (again IMHO) -- Cryptic should embrace their "dumbed down STO" vision to the Nth degree to get every dumb joe to get out there and pew-pew .
Right now you send dumb Joe into PVP and he gets stomped (and let's not go into the list of reasons) .
If you want to sidestep that , then PVP in this game has to be simple to understand cookie cutter powers (I'd say no more then 5 powers tops , or the equal of todays Lvl 3 PVP) .
But no one wants that .
Not really .
Cryptic will loose their de-facto QA team (the PVP forums bunch) .
And the PVP forums bunch will never willingly let go of the ability to min-max and tweak and keybind their stuff to be "better" or "superior" .
And ultimately , if a real PVP revamp will come up on the horizon , the choice will be between making PVP "easy" (based on skill alone) , or "hard" continue down the road of min-maxing & reputation & unbalanced game & TRIBBLE PVE for the sake of PVP .
And this is why I don't think a true PVP revamp is coming .
Cryptic says that it "loves to learn" ?
I wonder what have they learned from their own PVEVP mission that was introduced in Neverwinter roughly 7 months ago ?
Insightful, and I agree now that I think about it on just about all points.
No wonder so many of the PVPers posting here on this thread are so obnoxious. They are not representing all PVPers, but the elitist silver-spooned "I have invincible template so I always win but why doesn't anyone want to be dominated by me waaaaaah" types.
Im not in the market for a job, I actually develop games for a living. Thats how I know these things. Youre such a cynic. Maybe if you knew half of what i do about the inner workings youd realize how daft you sound. Running concurrence in function auditing = zero cost. You simply rework two systems simultaneously. it really isnt hard considering they generally all revolve around the same few functions that handle everything else.
Go listen to Geko's interview, he even flat out states this. Flat out admits the only reason they havent done it yet is because the suits are constantly demanding they only work on new things. Are you really this clueless?
Whats even funnier is they have been doing this all along. You cant add new things without fixing concurrences anyway, since you get even MORE BUGS if you dont. Its all on a prioritization system of which neither you nor I are privy to.
But hey, keep laughing it up, ignorance is bliss.
Oh look, it's another guy roleplaying as a "Game developer".
There's a heirarchy to this huge swarm of internet people, and their king is the author of that silly book "Playing to Win" where that guy tried to claim he was a "Japanese Game Developer" and all he did was help playtest a Puzzle Fighter sequel.
This is bar-coded, rank-and-file standard issue internet bluster with no substance.
You're impressing no one. As your avatar character would say to you, "You get nothing. You lose. Good day sir."
And ultimately , if a real PVP revamp will come up on the horizon , the choice will be between making PVP "easy" (based on skill alone) , or "hard" continue down the road of min-maxing & reputation & unbalanced game & TRIBBLE PVE for the sake of PVP.
In fairness I think if they were to flip the balancing model of the game to focus on all abilities and doffs, effects, etc being balanced around pvp they could ignore it's effects on pve because (so long as the NPCs follow the same model) pve would be balanced by pvp rather than pvp balance being screwed by pve as it is now.
In fairness I think if they were to flip the balancing model of the game to focus on all abilities and doffs, effects, etc being balanced around pvp they could ignore it's effects on pve because (so long as the NPCs follow the same model) pve would be balanced by pvp rather than pvp balance being screwed by pve as it is now.
So the inverse of who is screwed is just fine with you.
So the inverse of who is screwed is just fine with you.
Way to show that personal bias.
Really? So a decrease in most things with an increase in useful abilities and more inventive uses for them and new potential combos is a bad thing? Do remember the NPCs would get adjusted to fit the new balancing arrangement, but options are a bad thing, opening up pvp to more people is a bad thing, making pvp more fun thanks to better balancing is a bad thing...
It's not that silly. It's that PvP offers a unique experience that PvE simply isn't capable of.
No computer can TRIBBLE up the way a human can, that is a fact.
Ikr? And no computer can rage the way a human can either. ERMAFAHKGAWD Y0UR SUBSPACE BUBBLE AND GRAVITY WELL YOU FAKING NOOB CHEESE USER OMG CALL 911 NAO.
Really? So a decrease in most things with an increase in useful abilities and more inventive uses for them and new potential combos is a bad thing? Do remember the NPCs would get adjusted to fit the new balancing arrangement, but options are a bad thing, opening up pvp to more people is a bad thing, making pvp more fun thanks to better balancing is a bad thing...
Sure...
Saying "Really?" to everything doesn't do you any favors and only makes you seem petulantly incredulous. It's getting very long in the tooth.
You still haven't said anything about why your inversion would be a good thing, outside of an elaborate "me me me" topped with ellipses.
Ikr? And no computer can rage the way a human can either. ERMAFAHKGAWD Y0UR SUBSPACE BUBBLE AND GRAVITY WELL YOU FAKING NOOB CHEESE USER OMG CALL 911 NAO.
And here we see the attitude that keeps PVEers away from PVP, and drives away the wretched souls that peek in for a moment and get utterly dominated by template stacking minmaxers.
And here we see the attitude that keeps PVEers away from PVP, and drives away the wretched souls that peek in for a moment and get utterly dominated by template stacking minmaxers.
It's called strategy. If they get owned, join a fleet and ask for help like I did.
Saying "Really?" to everything doesn't do you any favors and only makes you seem petulantly incredulous. It's getting very long in the tooth.
Please, tell me more about how i've used the word "Really" in more than two posts now...
You still haven't said anything about why your inversion would be a good thing, outside of an elaborate "me me me" topped with ellipses.
Ok so I've used three ellipses in total, not much of an argument on your part if you ask me, maybe I should use another... :P
You demand I give more examples of how it would benefit everyone (other than more varied gameplay, more useful skills, more potential ability combos, more useful ships, more different ways to kill things, more opportunity to add skills to NPCs... (the list goes on)).
It's fine to like game-that-can-not-be-named. I don't know if it's a good fit for Elder Scrolls. Having a clumsily-assembled trio of "why are these guys allies again?" factions all fighting over the Imperial City sounds very questionable.
Hooray, "YOLOSWAG420" is now the Emperor of Cyrodil! Hail the conquerer and his mighty band "BLAZINIT".
Sry for the offtopic a bit, but had to quote you and especially that last sentence. Its epic.
The thing about Elder Scolls games having such a big succes, and that Skyrim is played by alot of players even now, myself included, its their editors and community fan based mods. Since Morrowind, then Oblivion and now Skyrim, there were, and still are soo many community made mods out-there, some even to the qualitiy of the original developer, even with voice acting, new animations, etc. Heck, I remember a few years ago, before Skyrim, I actuaully got to the 250 mods cap on Oblivion, and it wasnt with those soo many "bikini armors" mods, but with deep content ones like massive stories, landcape modifiers, etc.
IMO, those are the reason the game had and still has so much succes, and thats purely PvE content. Dont know about Elder Scrolls Online, only time will tell, but hope it will turn out ok and it will become a growing MMO.
Gonna be honest here but I've been reading this thread everyday now and You seem just a tad bitter and thats ok because if you get burned in PvP it can put anyone off however... heres my 2 cents and hear me out
1. PvP isn't all evil incarnate, dreadful or full of egotistical people. Sure you are going to find a lot of people who are asses but that happens in PvE content too and as people have pointed out it happens more in PvE due to the amount of people who play it. I play PvP at least maybe 3/4 matches every day with friends from my fleet AND other fleets to mix it up a little and I encounter several people who are asses but I ignore them and I plan a way of beating them. Grant I may not be able to beat that person within a week or two but I will and when I do it will be worth it.
2. Minimaxers exist both in PvE and PvP, I'm sure you have seen the DPS5K, 10K and so forth channels; their builds are meant and designed to be the best at a certain thing its only natural for all of us to specialise in something either in a game or real life and if you got stomped by them its because you or whoever it was was put in a Pug team by the queue and the queuing system is not perfect it will put odd groups together. There are special chat channels like Tyler Durden and oPvP that have people creating more balanced matches so no one gets stomped into the ground.
My advice just try it again but don't let defeat get you. I dont care if I die in PvP or PvE content cos my ship just respawns I've lost nothing from it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
No Drama, No Fuss, Just good old fashioned pew pew!
In fairness I think if they were to flip the balancing model of the game to focus on all abilities and doffs, effects, etc being balanced around pvp they could ignore it's effects on pve because (so long as the NPCs follow the same model) pve would be balanced by pvp rather than pvp balance being screwed by pve as it is now.
Perhaps that's true , but the point I was trying to make was the following , based on our collective STO experience :
STF's of the past (which I loved btw) , were the point at which PVP is at right now .
Meaning that those skilled enough (and equipped enough) can have fun in it , but they did not represent the majority .
If we are to follow the generic example of the STF's evolution -- the next step in PVP would be to do something to make it easy , so that the 'average Joe' could not only do it , but have fun doing it !
Consider that a temporal down turn , as as STF's have shown us , there will come a point where eventually there will come a demand for something more difficult / complicated .
But for now ... -- (IMHO) if you truly share the ideal of making PVP accessible for the masses -- then unfortunately a major dumbing down is needed .
I know that the PVP community has tried ... .
I know that .
From organizing tournaments to doing Boot Camps -- I know about all that and I see that as a highly commandable effort .
The problem is that as things are now ... , as unequal (footing) as ppl start out ... , not to mention the learning curve , the Doffs & weapons that cost Millions , the lack of any real 'love' or an actual plan for that matter by the Devs -- all this and more keeps the generic population at bay and out of reach .
Sadly , knowing Cryptic , their solution will be the Band Aid type , and not a real reform from the grounds up .
As for me ... I'll just wait for Season 15 to be told that a PVP revamp is just around the corner ... -- only to be pushed off once more .
Please, tell me more about how i've used the word "Really" in more than two posts now...
Ok so I've used three ellipses in total, not much of an argument on your part if you ask me, maybe I should use another... :P
You demand I give more examples of how it would benefit everyone (other than more varied gameplay, more useful skills, more potential ability combos, more useful ships, more different ways to kill things, more opportunity to add skills to NPCs... (the list goes on)).
I ask a sensible reply from yourself.
None of those things you mentioned are tied directly to PVP or have to come only from PVP, or for that matter come best from PVP. Unless you're one of those "trickle down" people that thinks that pandering to obnoxious elitists and spoonfeeding them means that everyone else benefits.
Throw some more ellipses out to be contrary, or be a Reddit warrior with some other canned gesture of disapproval. You don't have much to stand on but things just that can come from well-crafted PVE, not just PVP.
Comments
"Wyatt Earp: What makes someone like PvP, Doc? What makes them do the things they do?
Doc Holliday: A PvP'er has got a great big hole, right in the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or steal enough, or inflict enough pain to ever fill it.
Wyatt Earp: What does he need?
Doc Holliday: Revenge.
Wyatt Earp: For what?
Doc Holliday: Bein' born."
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
Random bogus assertions are the lifeblood of Internet forums!
.
What do I win?
Even if moderate upgrades could be worked in without disrupting the rest of the game or forcing PVE equipment/power changes based upon PVP nitpicking, the "Life force of modern gaming" thing is laughably pretentious. And incorrect.
Waste of resources for a very miniscule playerbase.
Pure hyperbole.
Nonsense.
Flinging birds at pig houses is.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
In any typical developmental studio there are multiple departments and dozens of programmers. Youd be surprised at how easy it can be to divert manpower.
Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing, as there is nothing being added, merely reworks and recycles. The only resource at hand is manpower/labor, and realistically that is minimal due to the ability to work on multiple projects at the same time.
Those of you who never worked in the industry or have no real grasp of how game development is done, need to really understand that a PvP revamp would be so ridiculously cheap for this company (compared to putting the whole studio on crunch mode for yet another lockbox ship) that it would be a nearly 100 percent profit investment to them. Regardless of the size of said profit.
The best time to do said revamp would be a generic game wide bugbash (which has been needed for a while anyway). Since systems and functions would already be being looked at, adding in a couple extra hours here and there to tune them for player versus player gameplay should be a walk in the park.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I'm going to give a short disclaimer here for what I am about to say, because I warn you, it is controversial.
What I see in this thread is much less of a problem with the PVP and PVE communities and more of a general problem that exists in our society that has propagated and ingrained itself in the way that we see one another. Like it or not, I see an unwillingness to consider another person's viewpoint, as shown by a lot of scapegoating and personal attacks on both sides.
Our society I believe has taught us more and more so that "winning" an argument or getting the last word is more important than trying to cooperate to solve a problem. In this sense, there is a stark difference between debate and "word wars". Trying to hurt one another is not going to solve anything. I would point to American Congress as of late as a good example of this, but in good taste to Americans, I won't since I'm not qualified to do so since I don't live there.
Rather, I think that really the solution to this is continuous strife to consider aspects of both viewpoints.
A few things I can point to in this thread as the concerns of PVP and PVE:
PVE:
-Is mad because there is the feeling that PVPers always nerf all of the useful things
-Is frustrated because PVP is incredibly hard to get into and start, despite things like PVP boot camp.
-Finds PVP pointless because it isn't interesting.
PVP:
-Is concerned for player numbers and sad because many people often leave PVP after dabbling.
-Tired of grinding in PVE in order to obtain advantages in PVP.
-Wants more than anything in the world to see PVP succeed so that it can be a more enjoyable experience for everyone.
Looking at it like this, I don't see selfishness or hatred at all between the two, but rather a fundamental dysfunction in the game.
A few solutions to solve these problems that I would propose are:
-Making consoles / special abilities function differently for a player or an NPC.
-Removing the artificial barrier of entry by Standardizing PVP gear and invalidating reputation stats.
-Creating more maps for PVP, or use crowd sourcing like the foundry.
These are just a few of the numerous things that could be done to enhance the PVP experience for everyone so that BOTH the "majority" and "minority" are happy. In this situation, PVErs get to keep their mob busting consoles, and they can be balanced for PVP accordingly. PVP would see a lot more newcomers, since a fresh level 50 could hop right in knowing that gear and passives were more or less equal among each ship type. PVP would also get new content with arguably minimal dev art team time, since players can pick that up.
All in all, the potential for this games PVP system is definitely there, and it definitely does not have to come at the expense of PVErs.
Whew, there it was. If there are any errors, forgive me. I used google translate from French to write this.
Have a nice day.
Bwahahahahaha
Clearly, you fall into this category, if you think "Modifying existing systems costs relatively nothing."
Stop embarrassing yourself.
Cryptic (and anyone else with real experience) disagrees.
But if you think it's so easy, the job openings are that way
>
Im not in the market for a job, I actually develop games for a living. Thats how I know these things. Youre such a cynic. Maybe if you knew half of what i do about the inner workings youd realize how daft you sound. Running concurrence in function auditing = zero cost. You simply rework two systems simultaneously. it really isnt hard considering they generally all revolve around the same few functions that handle everything else.
Go listen to Geko's interview, he even flat out states this. Flat out admits the only reason they havent done it yet is because the suits are constantly demanding they only work on new things. Are you really this clueless?
Whats even funnier is they have been doing this all along. You cant add new things without fixing concurrences anyway, since you get even MORE BUGS if you dont. Its all on a prioritization system of which neither you nor I are privy to.
But hey, keep laughing it up, ignorance is bliss.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
In fact I think PVP'ers fear a PVP revamp more ... if in fact there is a true revamp and not just a new coat of paint .
Because IMHO if a true revamp comes to light , one that is motivated by correct intentions (meaning that the intent is to get more ppl to actually engage in PVP and see it for the fun it can really be) -- for that to take place , there can be no other choice but to put everyone on the same equal footing .
No more min-maxing .
No more 'super-special' secret builds .
No more new powers with every lockbox .
In fact , (again IMHO) -- Cryptic should embrace their "dumbed down STO" vision to the Nth degree to get every dumb joe to get out there and pew-pew .
Right now you send dumb Joe into PVP and he gets stomped (and let's not go into the list of reasons) .
If you want to sidestep that , then PVP in this game has to be simple to understand cookie cutter powers (I'd say no more then 5 powers tops , or the equal of todays Lvl 3 PVP) .
But no one wants that .
Not really .
Cryptic will loose their de-facto QA team (the PVP forums bunch) .
And the PVP forums bunch will never willingly let go of the ability to min-max and tweak and keybind their stuff to be "better" or "superior" .
And ultimately , if a real PVP revamp will come up on the horizon , the choice will be between making PVP "easy" (based on skill alone) , or "hard" continue down the road of min-maxing & reputation & unbalanced game & TRIBBLE PVE for the sake of PVP .
And this is why I don't think a true PVP revamp is coming .
Cryptic says that it "loves to learn" ?
I wonder what have they learned from their own PVEVP mission that was introduced in Neverwinter roughly 7 months ago ?
Insightful, and I agree now that I think about it on just about all points.
No wonder so many of the PVPers posting here on this thread are so obnoxious. They are not representing all PVPers, but the elitist silver-spooned "I have invincible template so I always win but why doesn't anyone want to be dominated by me waaaaaah" types.
Oh look, it's another guy roleplaying as a "Game developer".
There's a heirarchy to this huge swarm of internet people, and their king is the author of that silly book "Playing to Win" where that guy tried to claim he was a "Japanese Game Developer" and all he did was help playtest a Puzzle Fighter sequel.
This is bar-coded, rank-and-file standard issue internet bluster with no substance.
You're impressing no one. As your avatar character would say to you, "You get nothing. You lose. Good day sir."
R.I.P
In fairness I think if they were to flip the balancing model of the game to focus on all abilities and doffs, effects, etc being balanced around pvp they could ignore it's effects on pve because (so long as the NPCs follow the same model) pve would be balanced by pvp rather than pvp balance being screwed by pve as it is now.
So the inverse of who is screwed is just fine with you.
Way to show that personal bias.
Really? So a decrease in most things with an increase in useful abilities and more inventive uses for them and new potential combos is a bad thing? Do remember the NPCs would get adjusted to fit the new balancing arrangement, but options are a bad thing, opening up pvp to more people is a bad thing, making pvp more fun thanks to better balancing is a bad thing...
Sure...
Saying "Really?" to everything doesn't do you any favors and only makes you seem petulantly incredulous. It's getting very long in the tooth.
You still haven't said anything about why your inversion would be a good thing, outside of an elaborate "me me me" topped with ellipses.
And here we see the attitude that keeps PVEers away from PVP, and drives away the wretched souls that peek in for a moment and get utterly dominated by template stacking minmaxers.
Please, tell me more about how i've used the word "Really" in more than two posts now...
Ok so I've used three ellipses in total, not much of an argument on your part if you ask me, maybe I should use another... :P
You demand I give more examples of how it would benefit everyone (other than more varied gameplay, more useful skills, more potential ability combos, more useful ships, more different ways to kill things, more opportunity to add skills to NPCs... (the list goes on)).
I ask a sensible reply from yourself.
Sry for the offtopic a bit, but had to quote you and especially that last sentence. Its epic.
The thing about Elder Scolls games having such a big succes, and that Skyrim is played by alot of players even now, myself included, its their editors and community fan based mods. Since Morrowind, then Oblivion and now Skyrim, there were, and still are soo many community made mods out-there, some even to the qualitiy of the original developer, even with voice acting, new animations, etc. Heck, I remember a few years ago, before Skyrim, I actuaully got to the 250 mods cap on Oblivion, and it wasnt with those soo many "bikini armors" mods, but with deep content ones like massive stories, landcape modifiers, etc.
IMO, those are the reason the game had and still has so much succes, and thats purely PvE content. Dont know about Elder Scrolls Online, only time will tell, but hope it will turn out ok and it will become a growing MMO.
1. PvP isn't all evil incarnate, dreadful or full of egotistical people. Sure you are going to find a lot of people who are asses but that happens in PvE content too and as people have pointed out it happens more in PvE due to the amount of people who play it. I play PvP at least maybe 3/4 matches every day with friends from my fleet AND other fleets to mix it up a little and I encounter several people who are asses but I ignore them and I plan a way of beating them. Grant I may not be able to beat that person within a week or two but I will and when I do it will be worth it.
2. Minimaxers exist both in PvE and PvP, I'm sure you have seen the DPS5K, 10K and so forth channels; their builds are meant and designed to be the best at a certain thing its only natural for all of us to specialise in something either in a game or real life and if you got stomped by them its because you or whoever it was was put in a Pug team by the queue and the queuing system is not perfect it will put odd groups together. There are special chat channels like Tyler Durden and oPvP that have people creating more balanced matches so no one gets stomped into the ground.
My advice just try it again but don't let defeat get you. I dont care if I die in PvP or PvE content cos my ship just respawns I've lost nothing from it.
Perhaps that's true , but the point I was trying to make was the following , based on our collective STO experience :
STF's of the past (which I loved btw) , were the point at which PVP is at right now .
Meaning that those skilled enough (and equipped enough) can have fun in it , but they did not represent the majority .
If we are to follow the generic example of the STF's evolution -- the next step in PVP would be to do something to make it easy , so that the 'average Joe' could not only do it , but have fun doing it !
Consider that a temporal down turn , as as STF's have shown us , there will come a point where eventually there will come a demand for something more difficult / complicated .
But for now ... -- (IMHO) if you truly share the ideal of making PVP accessible for the masses -- then unfortunately a major dumbing down is needed .
I know that the PVP community has tried ... .
I know that .
From organizing tournaments to doing Boot Camps -- I know about all that and I see that as a highly commandable effort .
The problem is that as things are now ... , as unequal (footing) as ppl start out ... , not to mention the learning curve , the Doffs & weapons that cost Millions , the lack of any real 'love' or an actual plan for that matter by the Devs -- all this and more keeps the generic population at bay and out of reach .
Sadly , knowing Cryptic , their solution will be the Band Aid type , and not a real reform from the grounds up .
As for me ... I'll just wait for Season 15 to be told that a PVP revamp is just around the corner ... -- only to be pushed off once more .
None of those things you mentioned are tied directly to PVP or have to come only from PVP, or for that matter come best from PVP. Unless you're one of those "trickle down" people that thinks that pandering to obnoxious elitists and spoonfeeding them means that everyone else benefits.
Throw some more ellipses out to be contrary, or be a Reddit warrior with some other canned gesture of disapproval. You don't have much to stand on but things just that can come from well-crafted PVE, not just PVP.