I would say that bootcamp is directed primarily at growing the premade community. Which will only affect the casual pvper. Growing the casual pvper community is something else altogether, the separate que system is what I believe to be the answer to the latter.
What this will do is create a plateau right where the curve starts to get too steep. That is the only thing a separate queue is guaranteed to do.
I would say that bootcamp is directed primarily at growing the premade community. Which will only affect the casual pvper. Growing the casual pvper community is something else altogether, the separate que system is what I believe to be the answer to the latter.
I don't agree, Tal.
I see Bootcamp as a means of spreading information and teaching those who join it, so they can take that, apply it to their own gameplay, and pass it onto friends and fleet mates. Maybe it is improving the premade community, maybe not. But it is adding new PvPers as they graduate. But, playing with friends is also the point of an MMO as well.
Heck, in both of the most recent tournaments, graduates participated in both of them and got VERY far in them. Against some of the more well-seasoned PvPers at that.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I see Bootcamp as a means of spreading information and teaching those who join it, so they can take that, apply it to their own gameplay, and pass it onto friends and fleet mates. Maybe it is improving the premade community, maybe not. But it is adding new PvPers as they graduate. But, playing with friends is also the point of an MMO as well.
Heck, in both of the most recent tournaments, graduates participated in both of them and got VERY far in them. Against some of the more well-seasoned PvPers at that.
I always felt it was simply fostering better team play, teaching ship roles, teaching team dynamics.
While those are the fundamentals of premade play, if everyone had that knowledge you'd see a lot less "PUGstomps".
Unfortunately you have people who are so introverted that the mere suggestion that they use something like TS sends them into a rage, much less being "told how to play".
We live in a day and age where teaming & cooperation translates to certain misanthropic minds as "loss of individuality" or "inability to be self-reliant".
Neither is true, but good luck telling that to people who see everything in black and white.
People who complain about premades have a habit of exaggerating the prevalence of them in the queues. The truth is that the vast majority of games are pug vs. pug. Complainers tend to blame losses on premades even where none exist, preferring the comfortable delusion that loss was inevitable to the reality that they just aren't very good at PvP and helped to sink their team. Sadly, this attitude plays a huge part in stopping these players from advancing in ability and ultimately creates more negative feelings and angst.
Two or three players teamed together are most certainly not a premade. Usually, they aren't even much of threat. It's only when you have three players that are usually a part of a five man premade group that you need to worry. Most players who team up with a couple friends aren't going to be much more coordinated than average pugs, they just want to play together. It's not an exact science, but you can usually tell by looking at fleet tags. Three guys from 12th fleet (just pulling a random, large PvE fleet from the top of my head) aren't likely to pose much of a threat, but if you're in a pure pug and you see three guys on the enemy team with Turkish RP Hero (pulling a random, small but high level PvP fleet from the top of my head) fleet tags, you're probably in trouble. This distinction isn't going to stop the usual suspects from yelling "Premade" whenever they see three guys from the same PvE fleet teamed up together -- they aren't thinking rationally so much as looking for an excuse.
Seperate queues for pug and teamed players has the potential to be the final nail in the coffin, or absolutely amazing. It all depends on implementation. Unfortunately, every aspect that would make separate queues work good are likely to be poorly received by those complaining about premades. Here are two examples:
One, a premade queue needs to only include five man premades while the "pug" queue should allow teams of up to three. Two reasons: A three man team with two pugs is a lot closer in ability to a pure pug than it is to a five man premade, and players should still be able to team up and play with friends without having to get a group of five or enter an elite league . Whiners are not going to take this well as they tend to dislike playing against any teamed players whatsoever, and would instead prefer to lower everyone else to their level.
Second, there are not even close to enough premade teams to support having their own queue. Therefore, you need to have far greater incentive to queue as a team. The premade queue should provide better rewards in general, but could also include a ranking system which drastically increases rewards the higher up the ranking system you are. This would encourage large PvE fleets to field teams and learn to play at a higher level. It would also encourage players in the pug queue to strive for joining a team and graduating to the premade queue. Lastly, you would attract PvPers that are not currently playing STO as well as the multitudes who have already left due to the state of PvP. Whiners are likely to outright despise this because they are selfishly motivated and hate the idea of high level players being given better rewards than themselves.
Under these two conditions I'm willing to bet most premade PvPers would love to see separate queues. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I can say the same for those who decry premades as the root of all evil. Would love to be wrong though.
The problem is not really premade teams - it's more the huge margin between players that exists at level cap due to rep, gear and experience. That's why most low-level PvP is balanced - no one has any particularly great advantage over the rest.
Part of the problem is also the self-perpetuating small population. Sure, there are those who talk about being tough and learning from that initial stompy first experience. However, the fact is that quite a few people don't play this game for PvP - it's incompatible with hardcore-ness. As such, we have to ease people in if we want more to play.
Boosting rewards so that they are comparable to endgame PvE would help, in that a large influx of new players would help to dilute the existing group of very experienced PvPers. At least the influence of experienced players would be less felt.
And honestly, this is the problem - back when I started, a year and a half back, the only lockbox ships were the Galor and the bug - a weekend of STFs could gear someone sufficiently, and no need for fleet ships or rep. No doffs and no EC universal consoles either. Now, it is true that there is more versatility possible in builds at the endgame - but it also means that barriers to entry are huge.
In short, much of the problem is due to the massive amount of powercreep that has happened, and the fact that nothing separates someone without the powercreep from someone with it in the queues. This amplifies the difference between experienced (who are also often geared to the nines) and inexperienced players, and creates significant barriers to entry, resulting in a monopoly of a small community on PvP. If the power gap between solo players at the same level is this great, even eliminating premades would not help much to boost balance.
Unfortunately you have people who are so introverted that the mere suggestion that they use something like TS sends them into a rage, much less being "told how to play".
We live in a day and age where teaming & cooperation translates to certain misanthropic minds as "loss of individuality" or "inability to be self-reliant".
Neither is true, but good luck telling that to people who see everything in black and white.
Gotta stop you right there with that. There are many reasons to not use TS not least of which is because you either do not have a mic or you're not in an environment where you can be using said mic.
Then there's the hearing part, some people do play into the evening and thus might have sound turned off to not disturb the neighbours or other family members.
the below link might contain strong language that is generally inappropriate at all times, you have been warned.
Then there's this sort of thing that makes people not use TS or any voice coms at all, ever outside of with friends.
I'm not trying to say everyone that doesn't use TS and stuff has a good reason but my experience is that if a team is on TS and one or two have to use the in game chat then they are largely ignored by the TS players too.
Maybe you should ask Cryptic to either explain in the tutorial how to make chat key binds or get them to put an automatic one in. I know it helped in left 4 dead when people didn't have a mic, they could make their character say things like, yes, no, go ahead, I'll take point etc.
Or maybe there could be a community decided txt file to load up with preset key binds that don't conflict with default settings? Then when pugging and on a team of new players, use said key binds and near the end link it to them. If it's as easy to do as download drop in folder and type a command into chat people might take it up.
Nothing changed much since the game launched when i read this thread Same discussions atleast the Klingons are OP threads dont show up anymore. Yeah the good old times where klingons didnt had pve and started with lvl 14 or something. And target subsystem skills didnt had a counter.
Ok my 2 cents,
The Problem around Premade vs Pugs or Pugs vs Premades is more a cryptic Problem itself.
First this game was never balanced for space pvp or ground pvp, and it will be never balanced for it. Once there was some rules in the premade vs premade thing but many fleets changed their tactics or qqed cause they couldn't compete without it against spanish inquisition or fistas sistas back days, and before fistas sistas and spanish there was this us fleet old dirty TRIBBLE that where somewhat a challenge on fed side, back in those days we just flown kdf.
Now iam back in this game for like 1,5 weeks and i see more problems for the pvp.
The balance of Reputation up to Doffs combined with teamsetups premades vs solo players who just do their daily or regular premade players who queue solo in a match. there isnt much difference between what you call a common pug and an self claimed pro or community claimed good pvper when they are solo in a match.
The Meta and balance has changed so much that now a single good or a team of two cant compete against a medium or bad setup premade. Before this game went f2p even Spanish Inquisition lost a match to a pug group of known pvpers one was even from their fleet in a klingon setup.
So the problem is like it always was the queue system itself, or matchmaking how new games would call it. This game dont make a difference between a 5 man team queue and a solo queue, and there lies the problem right from the start years ago and will lie until the pvp scene is ruled again from a few premade setups who will get bored soon to long queues, again (this happened already 3 times in my past).
Some people will always try to bring pvp in an game on a competive lvl, with or without rules, and rules change also setups .
Also the maximised gear/doff/boff layout is a turnoff for new players and will be. The reputation system itself is a cool feature and brings some nice "bling bling" with big effects to the pvp scene itself, BUT it has the drawback. New players will not have those features fast, and will face maxed out, geared out enemys.
There is no solution other then private matches for premades and tournaments to create the illusion of a competitive scene and push virtual egos. But thats actually a good thing, everybody's ego need some love right :P?
The best would be to accept, there are no rules, and everything is allowed, as long its not an hack or exploit against the rules of the provider/devs.
This game allows us to change doff and boff setups not in fight but when we get out of it, so with the right time and capital every "premade" or group of friends who invest time to train, build a setup, learn the meta, learn the skill to fly the ship and execute tactics that are planned via the meta strategy can also learn to adapt, and counter. The only question should be, do we have enough counters that actually work properly. And i say we don't.
And to come back to the topic.
The PVP in this game was made for pugs vs pugs not premade vs premade.
After all those changes more to burst and faster kills with massive bleedthrough changes of the game only premades can compete with premades, cause even the heals need to be planned, executed beside the alphas, stuns, nukes and all the coordinated spamm.
And even then its more setup related. (setup inclued equipp,boff layout, doff layout, macro/bind layout) then skill related (execution of tactics and order of skill use).
And here we see the problem, premades will ruin the fun of pugs. And pugs cant chose to not fight premades. Since the queue system itself is broken. What would help all? Easy: Teams from more then 3 people can just queue up for team pvp. So just 2 new queues Capture and Hold team vs team, and arena team vs team. Problem not solved but this would be a decent change after all those years.
Also for all of the guys who think this game has or will ever be a real competitive pvp game some kind of e TRIBBLE ranking. BUT please no special pvp gear and skills.
This game lost already a lot of its former past in skill requirement for tactics and kills compared to the past. But gained a lot of meta strategy.
People who complain about premades have a habit of exaggerating the prevalence of them in the queues. The truth is that the vast majority of games are pug vs. pug. Complainers tend to blame losses on premades even where none exist, preferring the comfortable delusion that loss was inevitable to the reality that they just aren't very good at PvP and helped to sink their team. Sadly, this attitude plays a huge part in stopping these players from advancing in ability and ultimately creates more negative feelings and angst.
Two or three players teamed together are most certainly not a premade. Usually, they aren't even much of threat. It's only when you have three players that are usually a part of a five man premade group that you need to worry. Most players who team up with a couple friends aren't going to be much more coordinated than average pugs, they just want to play together. It's not an exact science, but you can usually tell by looking at fleet tags. Three guys from 12th fleet (just pulling a random, large PvE fleet from the top of my head) aren't likely to pose much of a threat, but if you're in a pure pug and you see three guys on the enemy team with Turkish RP Hero (pulling a random, small but high level PvP fleet from the top of my head) fleet tags, you're probably in trouble. This distinction isn't going to stop the usual suspects from yelling "Premade" whenever they see three guys from the same PvE fleet teamed up together -- they aren't thinking rationally so much as looking for an excuse.
Seperate queues for pug and teamed players has the potential to be the final nail in the coffin, or absolutely amazing. It all depends on implementation. Unfortunately, every aspect that would make separate queues work good are likely to be poorly received by those complaining about premades. Here are two examples:
One, a premade queue needs to only include five man premades while the "pug" queue should allow teams of up to three. Two reasons: A three man team with two pugs is a lot closer in ability to a pure pug than it is to a five man premade, and players should still be able to team up and play with friends without having to get a group of five or enter an elite league . Whiners are not going to take this well as they tend to dislike playing against any teamed players whatsoever, and would instead prefer to lower everyone else to their level.
Second, there are not even close to enough premade teams to support having their own queue. Therefore, you need to have far greater incentive to queue as a team. The premade queue should provide better rewards in general, but could also include a ranking system which drastically increases rewards the higher up the ranking system you are. This would encourage large PvE fleets to field teams and learn to play at a higher level. It would also encourage players in the pug queue to strive for joining a team and graduating to the premade queue. Lastly, you would attract PvPers that are not currently playing STO as well as the multitudes who have already left due to the state of PvP. Whiners are likely to outright despise this because they are selfishly motivated and hate the idea of high level players being given better rewards than themselves.
Under these two conditions I'm willing to bet most premade PvPers would love to see separate queues. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I can say the same for those who decry premades as the root of all evil. Would love to be wrong though.
Well I m not sure if the puggers crying foul are more in denial and selfish, or those that pretend that STO was always marketed and designed to be an e-sport. Bottom line both are fed up with the state of pvp. I don't share your assumption about the general misgivings of puggers. As you say yourself, three premade players in the ir premade set-up can easily dominate the queues. The demand for separate queues is just a demand for a random element to level the playing field and keep matches fun and more varied. Just like many PvP'ers despise PvE for its predictability, seeing the same three guys in arena after arena killing the randoms in the same way... is plain boring.... for both sides.
A premade queue with special rewards could be farmed by large PvE groups if private matches stay they way they are now. Just to be clear I don't think that using private challenges to get you kdf ground kill accolades is exploiting or doing anything wrong, neither is not having shields or armor in private farming matches. You play the game and don't ruin anybodies fun, you even communicate with other players so that's a plus. Then again foundry rewards have been nerfed for similar behavior. So whats the plan here devs?
I mean would a private office and a giant holo statue on ESD of player toons be enough of a special reward, or do you have more power creep gear in mind? I could see e.g. large Mark boxes be a reward for premade queues. But special gear seems a bad idea. Who still wants to bring unrepped new players on their team when it ruins their rewards against other established premades?
Matchmaking ala hilbert could probably cure many ills if implemented by Cryptic. How about special bonus event where going into public queues as part of a team doubles your rewards? There are so many options. It's time the designers in charge of this pro-game step up and show us how they envisions their elite top-end high level players in exceeding expectations builds to coexist with those that pay the bills. What about FvK, or friggin rommies? So many things to do king of the hill, new pvevp, .... pre-made queues seem like pretty far down on the list to me.
Vitriol against other players doesn't help either ones cause, and pvp will stay a mess regardless of experience or skill level. Cryptic's neglect is the issue, not general character flaws of wanna be gaming pros or weekend warriors.
I'm all for special rewards without power-creep. But without a complete revamp to systems general design approach pre-made queues might as well just come with an i-win token in the lobi store. The resource demand for l33t set-ups has become that silly, and if Cryptic were to start taking competitive game-play serious that would be the first problem to address.
PVP in this game could be great. For somethin the devs don't pay any attention to, it's a solid system with great depth and versatility. The problem lies not with the system itself per say, but with the inability of the players to understand their role in team play.
Given, the PVE portion of the game does nothing to prepare you for anything like the arenas or cap splode or kerrat even. That does not take away from from the individual player's ability to survey their captain's abilities and the ships layed out before them to determine an optimal layout to maximize that players impact in a team environment.
When it comes down to it, every game I'm playing right now since my hiatus appears to take tremendous grind and practice to get the gear and experience to perform in PVP. Yet it seems only here players are so against playing their suited role in a team environment.
These other games have options to, well.... "Kirk it up" so to speak in STO lingo. But when it comes to pvp, I found 3 communities that have a drive to really dial in to their class and maximize their impact for the team. Communication, through voice chat or bind text calling, and regular reflection post match on what could have gone better. It was really a sight to see, this past week of vacation.
So, I don't think it's premades or PUGs. It's the player base.
Those who wish to dedicate the time are just not here in mass. And universal consoles and power creep just add to the frustration.
PVP in this game could be great. For somethin the devs don't pay any attention to, it's a solid system with great depth and versatility. The problem lies not with the system itself per say, but with the inability of the players to understand their role in team play.
Given, the PVE portion of the game does nothing to prepare you for anything like the arenas or cap splode or kerrat even. That does not take away from from the individual player's ability to survey their captain's abilities and the ships layed out before them to determine an optimal layout to maximize that players impact in a team environment.
When it comes down to it, every game I'm playing right now since my hiatus appears to take tremendous grind and practice to get the gear and experience to perform in PVP. Yet it seems only here players are so against playing their suited role in a team environment.
These other games have options to, well.... "Kirk it up" so to speak in STO lingo. But when it comes to pvp, I found 3 communities that have a drive to really dial in to their class and maximize their impact for the team. Communication, through voice chat or bind text calling, and regular reflection post match on what could have gone better. It was really a sight to see, this past week of vacation.
So, I don't think it's premades or PUGs. It's the player base.
Those who wish to dedicate the time are just not here in mass. And universal consoles and power creep just add to the frustration.
Have fun kill bad guys.
-horizon
Hey Horizon, glad you chimed in since you were mentioned in the thread.
Anyway, taking a little break myself, only logging in for rep grind and the occasional premade match or tournament.
So, a few of us are playing WarThunder, a nice WW2 themed air combat game. Check it out, you might like it. I got a certain nuclear physicist coming to play it too. lol. My handle is _sp_bmr1580 You should try it.
Gotta stop you right there with that. There are many reasons to not use TS not least of which is because you either do not have a mic or you're not in an environment where you can be using said mic.
I live in one of those environments, nothing prevents me from:
A) Making important keybinds. Listening to the team with your mic off.
Unless you are doing top end premade v premade, tournament level stuff - you can be on TS, listen and participate with team chat keybinds and increase your performance by quite a lot.
Then there's the hearing part, some people do play into the evening and thus might have sound turned off to not disturb the neighbours or other family members.
A cheap set of headphones costs about 5 to 25 USD.
the below link might contain strong language that is generally inappropriate at all times, you have been warned.
Then there's this sort of thing that makes people not use TS or any voice coms at all, ever outside of with friends.
And what will you do when someone is mean to you in the real world?
Stay inside forever?
There are jackholes in this world.
Developing a thick skin and learning how to either avoid them, out-think them or let their stupidity bounce off you are lessons that everyone should learn and apply to their entire life - not just gaming.
Or "you" (the general you) can crawl into a hole, and hide from all the nasty people and let them win.
How do they win?
Well, they've pushed you so far into a corner you deprive yourself of meeting good people.
Gotta stop you right there with that. There are many reasons to not use TS not least of which is because you either do not have a mic or you're not in an environment where you can be using said mic.
I live in one of those environments, nothing prevents me from:
A) Making important keybinds. Listening to the team with your mic off.
Unless you are doing top end premade v premade, tournament level stuff - you can be on TS, listen and participate with team chat keybinds and increase your performance by quite a lot.
It can be difficult. Oh, no doubt I agree 99.9% about the listening part...but it's that 0.1% that's a real doozie there. You know how folks can be tools on the forums or in chat in the game...yeah...when you actually hear them, well - it's a lot harder just to shrug it off. There's a tendency to watch to find them...and instead of doing a /facepalm, introduce your palm to their face.
I've left guilds, corps, clans, etc, etc, etc...just not wanting to have to listen to some of the garbage that's being said.
Without diligent and rigorous controls in place - it's just not worth it...
...random good people in a video game aren't worth the garbage that's out there.
PVP in this game could be great. For somethin the devs don't pay any attention to, it's a solid system with great depth and versatility. The problem lies not with the system itself per say, but with the inability of the players to understand their role in team play.
Given, the PVE portion of the game does nothing to prepare you for anything like the arenas or cap splode or kerrat even. That does not take away from from the individual player's ability to survey their captain's abilities and the ships layed out before them to determine an optimal layout to maximize that players impact in a team environment.
When it comes down to it, every game I'm playing right now since my hiatus appears to take tremendous grind and practice to get the gear and experience to perform in PVP. Yet it seems only here players are so against playing their suited role in a team environment.
These other games have options to, well.... "Kirk it up" so to speak in STO lingo. But when it comes to pvp, I found 3 communities that have a drive to really dial in to their class and maximize their impact for the team. Communication, through voice chat or bind text calling, and regular reflection post match on what could have gone better. It was really a sight to see, this past week of vacation.
So, I don't think it's premades or PUGs. It's the player base.
Those who wish to dedicate the time are just not here in mass. And universal consoles and power creep just add to the frustration.
Have fun kill bad guys.
-horizon
Good points horizon. Now in these three games, I assume the gear grind to be PvE grind? And are you rewarded for playing to your classes strength during that grind? I think the resistance of the player-base to min-max their class, is simple how badly sci and eng are suited for STO PvE compared to Tacs. Who needs a full heal boat in ISE, or CC healer? Who needs SNB?
And what will you do when someone is mean to you in the real world?
Stay inside forever?
There are jackholes in this world.
Developing a thick skin and learning how to either avoid them, out-think them or let their stupidity bounce off you are lessons that everyone should learn and apply to their entire life - not just gaming.
Or "you" (the general you) can crawl into a hole, and hide from all the nasty people and let them win.
How do they win?
Well, they've pushed you so far into a corner you deprive yourself of meeting good people.
There's a difference between online games and the real world. In the real world if someone is abusive like that you can phone the police, you can get restraining orders and generally most people do not act like that at least due to peer pressure.
In an online "community" behaviour like that is very common against women, the elderly and even kids. There's a lot of abuse that normally people might not say and there's a difference between hearing it once and blocking to hearing it every single time you switch on the microphone or hop in team speak.
You can have as thick skin as you want but after a certain point you just decide FU and don't bother with that sort of thing outside of established friends.
It's not crawling into a hole, it's avoiding the torrent of moronic abuse. As VD says a lot of the time the random good people are just not worth it in a video game a lot of the time.
As for key binds etc, there's a thread in the PvP forums, why not post a key bind file as a sort of standard for them to use that has "attack X", heals please, science team please etc.That way it's easily accessible for new players. If I'm mistaken sorry but last I looked iI didn't see one.
Well, let's face it: the internet does tend to bring out the worst in some people. And, additionally, some people's sense of humour is another person's sense of wild inappropriateness.
That applies to the internet in general and is no different in online multiplayer games. However, you have the option of muting or avoiding that stuff, so it's hardly surprising some people do.
Of course, there's lots of good and nice people out there, but let's not pretend STO's is the best playerbase out there, or even that the good outnumber the bad apples, looking at those communicating in-game, in the standard channels, whispers and pm's. Or maybe they do, but are the bad apples just a very vocal minority. I don't exclude the possibility. I most certainly have been yelled at more than engaged in friendly banter, if I ignore fleet chat, and I tend to know what I'm doing, at least. That's hardly encouraging for people without much experience with communication platforms.
I remember games that offered their own IRC servers. Back then, these issues existed and they haven't changed a bit. I can totally understand and sympathise with those that see voice comm as an extra option for annoyance or abuse that they can do without.
Myself, I often play in situations where people will occasionally talk to me and be either working or watching television. That means I will often be playing muted, and in situations where headphones would be kind of rude. So yes, I got some keybinding and just type the rest in chat. *shrug* Tends to work just fine, if you have a team that knows/understands.
Without diligent and rigorous controls in place - it's just not worth it...
...random good people in a video game aren't worth the garbage that's out there.
That's your opinion on it, and that's something I'll have to respect.
Unlike yourself though, unfortunately I think too many players who feel like this also feel entitled to what they perceive as "fair" game-play. (meaning, I think you accept the reality of it)
Of course "fair" in this instance means "Please remove the advantage the other players have because they are willing to use TS/Vent."
That's definitely at the core of this issue of "premades" - because one of the biggest advantages is simple voice chat.
There's a difference between online games and the real world. In the real world if someone is abusive like that you can phone the police, you can get restraining orders and generally most people do not act like that at least due to peer pressure.
In online games you can use the ignore feature, leave the TS/Vent server or simply mute that person for you.
Do you think I don't know about people like this? My fleet has an open TS server, we take the good with the bad in order to host TD matches.
In an online "community" behaviour like that is very common against women, the elderly and even kids. There's a lot of abuse that normally people might not say and there's a difference between hearing it once and blocking to hearing it every single time you switch on the microphone or hop in team speak.
You can have as thick skin as you want but after a certain point you just decide FU and don't bother with that sort of thing outside of established friends.
It's not crawling into a hole, it's avoiding the torrent of moronic abuse. As VD says a lot of the time the random good people are just not worth it in a video game a lot of the time.
As for key binds etc, there's a thread in the PvP forums, why not post a key bind file as a sort of standard for them to use that has "attack X", heals please, science team please etc.That way it's easily accessible for new players. If I'm mistaken sorry but last I looked iI didn't see one.
You can feel about it however you choose.
You're going off in a direction very different from what I originally posted.
Unfortunately you have people who are so introverted that the mere suggestion that they use something like TS sends them into a rage, much less being "told how to play".
There are people who spew the vitriol you are talking about at the mere mention of voice chat. People who denounced Boot Camp without even trying it, simply because they had an issue in the past or simply imagined one.
My main point in all of this is that players who are willing to concede a huge advantage in voice chat, should also be prepared to lose when facing players who use it.
My problem is when these "me first" attitude players, unwilling to find friends/fleet mates to team with, unwilling to adapt their build/playstyle to team dynamics, unwilling to utilize voice chat, unwilling to play for the team instead of themselves come to the forums and let their sense of entitlement demand that the players who do use those things be sent to a separate queue so the "me first" players can enjoy their own little walled garden.
If you concede all of the things that make teaming strong, be prepared to lose in a team vs. team environment like Arena.
If anything , what those players need is a 1v1 queue - then they can find out just how poorly designed 1v1 is in this game.
That's your opinion on it, and that's something I'll have to respect.
Unlike yourself though, unfortunately I think too many players who feel like this also feel entitled to what they perceive as "fair" game-play. (meaning, I think you accept the reality of it)
Of course "fair" in this instance means "Please remove the advantage the other players have because they are willing to use TS/Vent."
That's definitely at the core of this issue of "premades" - because one of the biggest advantages is simple voice chat.
Yeah, it's definitely my choice to avoid TS like the plague - it doesn't mean other folks that do not have the issue with it should not have access to it. If they've got a cool bunch they run with or if they're more patient/tolerant than I am...awesome for them. Like I agreed with you, even just listening (and well, in my case being able to type too fast) can provide a huge advantage...and if folks can partake of it, I highly recommend they do.
I don't see it as an exploit...and well, it's just generally depressing that I have that low of an opinion of the majority of players out there; but that's not a reason that others shouldn't be able to use it.
Still, one of the things I find funny about non-voice comms is the number of folks that call a target with a keybind...rather than just having a keybind saying "my target".
There's an option in the Control tab of Options for "Assist target on attack" - and well, yeah - it's basically what it says.
For example:
You (F1)
Tom (F2)
Jerry (F3)
Bugs (F4)
Daffy (F5)
Say Jerry's calling targets. He drops out, "target Willard the Rat" in the team chat. How many folks are going to be trying to click around the map or tab around the map until they target Willard? How many are going to hit F3 and attack...in turn attacking Jerry's target?
Heck, even if they're out of range so it doesn't kick over for some reason - by selecting Jerry, they should be able to see Jerry's target and click it from there as they do move into range.
Then of course, well - one can get into the various Macro Keyboards/Mice - and the chat messages one can run from those keys without tying up their other binds.
No, they're not going to be as versatile as voice comms - but in the end, there's that entitlement thing you mention. Heh, but then again - I've admitted to having a low opinion of the majority of players out there...heh. But yeah, there is a lot of entitlement - not only in them having things, but in not having to do things. So many folks don't even want to try.
If somebody doesn't care enough to try, they shouldn't care enough to complain about it...
...but yeah, ahem, they tend to save up all their energy from not trying so they've got plenty to complain about things. :P
As much as weve grown as a fleetmade, I did make a musing to my fleetmates the other night that I will share here.
For all of the love of teamspeak, teamwork, and coordination, I personally still do my best flying and killing when I am pugging it listening to slayer blast in my ears, alone.
TS and all that are just a distraction in many cases. The only time you might "need" them are if youre going hardcore mode against another hardcore mode team doing the same thing.
I dunno, its just something ive noticed. When we took the coordination out the other night after a long day of PvPing in our premade group... I flew like I remember I used to be able to.
When I actually thought I was good. Before I realized I am still learning to be a team player (at least in this game, have done it in many other games).
I felt... strong.
Anyone else ever get this? Just going out and relying on just your own personal skills, knowing you have no healer to back you, no wingman to help you kill your target. Just you, some guns, and your wits.
Love that stuff man.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
For all of the love of teamspeak, teamwork, and coordination, I personally still do my best flying and killing when I am pugging it listening to slayer blast in my ears, alone.
.
That's how it is at first. Then you start getting used to speaking, teamwork, and you and your team becomes better for it.
I never talked at all, at first. My team leader had to force the rest of the guys to communicate. And now we can't shut up. :P But it has made us stronger as a result.
There's no substitute for being able to quickly communicate you or your teammates status, etc on the fly.
For all of the love of teamspeak, teamwork, and coordination, I personally still do my best flying and killing when I am pugging it listening to slayer blast in my ears, alone.
TS and all that are just a distraction in many cases.
...causes ol' VD to WTF?
While one of the reasons I do not like voice comms in general is because they can be too chatty, folks babbling about the most inane things without any comm discipline...
...yeah, there's no music. No in-game music. No music streaming. No music on the stereo.
It's not so much that it's a distraction, not a case of jumping up and dancing in front of the keyboard like a bad SNL skit...it's a case of potentially not hearing something.
You hear buffs - the folks in front of you do not show any SFX nor additional buffs...yeah, there's somebody behind you.
Music just kills situational awareness in a game like this. Course, it's sheer lunacy that a BOFF can't whisper in the captain's ear without decloaking a ship...but the ship itself can make sounds that can be heard up to 10km away without decloaking...but that's the way the game is.
PVE? Yep, Spotify or some YouTube channel is going to be in play.
No freaking WAY am I playing this game without music.
Also, there should be nothing audible to warn your opponents that you're activating an ability. I'm on the fence about the little indicators next to your character status. There's no rational reason why they should know when I'm hitting TT or APO, and the only way they should know if I'm buffing a certain weapon is either by interpreting scans of my power routing, or watching me open fire.
Furthermore, giving someone the ability to talk into my ear is giving them the ability to give me orders, b***h at me for not playing the "role" they assign me, or in general just talk trash. Not everyone can put together a team of 5 friends all at once.
That's how it is at first. Then you start getting used to speaking, teamwork, and you and your team becomes better for it.
I never talked at all, at first. My team leader had to force the rest of the guys to communicate. And now we can't shut up. :P But it has made us stronger as a result.
There's no substitute for being able to quickly communicate you or your teammates status, etc on the fly.
I know, but what im getting at is I still feel like I play my best game when I am not doing that.
Takes the pressure off I guess. Either letting the team down or the team letting me down? Usually the former, lolz.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Also, there should be nothing audible to warn your opponents that you're activating an ability.
Outside of an actual sound made by said ability, I agree with this. Little random "power up" sounds are silly. But that's the nature of the game...they're there...they are part of having some iota of situational awareness in the game. Music interferes with that...
I don't need audible cues to know when some clown is ginning up another round of Sci spam. You learn to expect it, because those people are usually 1-trick ponies who will do that cheesy TRIBBLE over and over and over and over and *headdesk*
No freaking WAY am I playing this game without music.
<snip>
Furthermore, giving someone the ability to talk into my ear is giving them the ability to give me orders, b***h at me for not playing the "role" they assign me, or in general just talk trash. Not everyone can put together a team of 5 friends all at once.
Thanks, you've done a better job of proving my point than I ever could have done by myself. You sir, are a shining example of why the "I'm Captain Kirk" playerbase is the biggest problem with PvP.
I don't need audible cues to know when some clown is ginning up another round of Sci spam. You learn to expect it, because those people are usually 1-trick ponies who will do that cheesy TRIBBLE over and over and over and over and *headdesk*
Okay, what isn't a 1 trick pony? You're either doing your thing with weapons or space magic. Why is 1 pony worse than the other?
Thanks, you've done a better job of proving my point than I ever could have done by myself. You sir, are a shining example of why the "I'm Captain Kirk" playerbase is the biggest problem with PvP.
So it's a "problem" that someone doesn't know four other people who play this game? :rolleyes:
Okay, what isn't a 1 trick pony? You're either doing your thing with weapons or space magic. Why is 1 pony worse than the other?
Heck, even using more than one weapon is more creative than hammering two or three GW buttons over and over. Then there's maneuvers beyond "fly in a circle."
So it's a "problem" that someone doesn't know four other people who play this game? :rolleyes:
Heck, even using more than one weapon is more creative than hammering two or three GW buttons over and over. Then there's maneuvers beyond "fly in a circle."
No, it's not a problem that someone doesn't know four other people. It is a problem when that person doesn't make the attempt. Certain roles are necessary in PvP, if only to counter other players who are filling said roles.
Comments
What this will do is create a plateau right where the curve starts to get too steep. That is the only thing a separate queue is guaranteed to do.
Elite Defense Stovokor
I don't agree, Tal.
I see Bootcamp as a means of spreading information and teaching those who join it, so they can take that, apply it to their own gameplay, and pass it onto friends and fleet mates. Maybe it is improving the premade community, maybe not. But it is adding new PvPers as they graduate. But, playing with friends is also the point of an MMO as well.
Heck, in both of the most recent tournaments, graduates participated in both of them and got VERY far in them. Against some of the more well-seasoned PvPers at that.
I always felt it was simply fostering better team play, teaching ship roles, teaching team dynamics.
While those are the fundamentals of premade play, if everyone had that knowledge you'd see a lot less "PUGstomps".
Unfortunately you have people who are so introverted that the mere suggestion that they use something like TS sends them into a rage, much less being "told how to play".
We live in a day and age where teaming & cooperation translates to certain misanthropic minds as "loss of individuality" or "inability to be self-reliant".
Neither is true, but good luck telling that to people who see everything in black and white.
Two or three players teamed together are most certainly not a premade. Usually, they aren't even much of threat. It's only when you have three players that are usually a part of a five man premade group that you need to worry. Most players who team up with a couple friends aren't going to be much more coordinated than average pugs, they just want to play together. It's not an exact science, but you can usually tell by looking at fleet tags. Three guys from 12th fleet (just pulling a random, large PvE fleet from the top of my head) aren't likely to pose much of a threat, but if you're in a pure pug and you see three guys on the enemy team with Turkish RP Hero (pulling a random, small but high level PvP fleet from the top of my head) fleet tags, you're probably in trouble. This distinction isn't going to stop the usual suspects from yelling "Premade" whenever they see three guys from the same PvE fleet teamed up together -- they aren't thinking rationally so much as looking for an excuse.
Seperate queues for pug and teamed players has the potential to be the final nail in the coffin, or absolutely amazing. It all depends on implementation. Unfortunately, every aspect that would make separate queues work good are likely to be poorly received by those complaining about premades. Here are two examples:
One, a premade queue needs to only include five man premades while the "pug" queue should allow teams of up to three. Two reasons: A three man team with two pugs is a lot closer in ability to a pure pug than it is to a five man premade, and players should still be able to team up and play with friends without having to get a group of five or enter an elite league . Whiners are not going to take this well as they tend to dislike playing against any teamed players whatsoever, and would instead prefer to lower everyone else to their level.
Second, there are not even close to enough premade teams to support having their own queue. Therefore, you need to have far greater incentive to queue as a team. The premade queue should provide better rewards in general, but could also include a ranking system which drastically increases rewards the higher up the ranking system you are. This would encourage large PvE fleets to field teams and learn to play at a higher level. It would also encourage players in the pug queue to strive for joining a team and graduating to the premade queue. Lastly, you would attract PvPers that are not currently playing STO as well as the multitudes who have already left due to the state of PvP. Whiners are likely to outright despise this because they are selfishly motivated and hate the idea of high level players being given better rewards than themselves.
Under these two conditions I'm willing to bet most premade PvPers would love to see separate queues. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I can say the same for those who decry premades as the root of all evil. Would love to be wrong though.
The problem is not really premade teams - it's more the huge margin between players that exists at level cap due to rep, gear and experience. That's why most low-level PvP is balanced - no one has any particularly great advantage over the rest.
Part of the problem is also the self-perpetuating small population. Sure, there are those who talk about being tough and learning from that initial stompy first experience. However, the fact is that quite a few people don't play this game for PvP - it's incompatible with hardcore-ness. As such, we have to ease people in if we want more to play.
Boosting rewards so that they are comparable to endgame PvE would help, in that a large influx of new players would help to dilute the existing group of very experienced PvPers. At least the influence of experienced players would be less felt.
And honestly, this is the problem - back when I started, a year and a half back, the only lockbox ships were the Galor and the bug - a weekend of STFs could gear someone sufficiently, and no need for fleet ships or rep. No doffs and no EC universal consoles either. Now, it is true that there is more versatility possible in builds at the endgame - but it also means that barriers to entry are huge.
In short, much of the problem is due to the massive amount of powercreep that has happened, and the fact that nothing separates someone without the powercreep from someone with it in the queues. This amplifies the difference between experienced (who are also often geared to the nines) and inexperienced players, and creates significant barriers to entry, resulting in a monopoly of a small community on PvP. If the power gap between solo players at the same level is this great, even eliminating premades would not help much to boost balance.
Gotta stop you right there with that. There are many reasons to not use TS not least of which is because you either do not have a mic or you're not in an environment where you can be using said mic.
Then there's the hearing part, some people do play into the evening and thus might have sound turned off to not disturb the neighbours or other family members.
the below link might contain strong language that is generally inappropriate at all times, you have been warned.
Then there's this sort of thing that makes people not use TS or any voice coms at all, ever outside of with friends.
I'm not trying to say everyone that doesn't use TS and stuff has a good reason but my experience is that if a team is on TS and one or two have to use the in game chat then they are largely ignored by the TS players too.
Maybe you should ask Cryptic to either explain in the tutorial how to make chat key binds or get them to put an automatic one in. I know it helped in left 4 dead when people didn't have a mic, they could make their character say things like, yes, no, go ahead, I'll take point etc.
Or maybe there could be a community decided txt file to load up with preset key binds that don't conflict with default settings? Then when pugging and on a team of new players, use said key binds and near the end link it to them. If it's as easy to do as download drop in folder and type a command into chat people might take it up.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Ok my 2 cents,
The Problem around Premade vs Pugs or Pugs vs Premades is more a cryptic Problem itself.
First this game was never balanced for space pvp or ground pvp, and it will be never balanced for it. Once there was some rules in the premade vs premade thing but many fleets changed their tactics or qqed cause they couldn't compete without it against spanish inquisition or fistas sistas back days, and before fistas sistas and spanish there was this us fleet old dirty TRIBBLE that where somewhat a challenge on fed side, back in those days we just flown kdf.
Now iam back in this game for like 1,5 weeks and i see more problems for the pvp.
The balance of Reputation up to Doffs combined with teamsetups premades vs solo players who just do their daily or regular premade players who queue solo in a match. there isnt much difference between what you call a common pug and an self claimed pro or community claimed good pvper when they are solo in a match.
The Meta and balance has changed so much that now a single good or a team of two cant compete against a medium or bad setup premade. Before this game went f2p even Spanish Inquisition lost a match to a pug group of known pvpers one was even from their fleet in a klingon setup.
So the problem is like it always was the queue system itself, or matchmaking how new games would call it. This game dont make a difference between a 5 man team queue and a solo queue, and there lies the problem right from the start years ago and will lie until the pvp scene is ruled again from a few premade setups who will get bored soon to long queues, again (this happened already 3 times in my past).
Some people will always try to bring pvp in an game on a competive lvl, with or without rules, and rules change also setups .
Also the maximised gear/doff/boff layout is a turnoff for new players and will be. The reputation system itself is a cool feature and brings some nice "bling bling" with big effects to the pvp scene itself, BUT it has the drawback. New players will not have those features fast, and will face maxed out, geared out enemys.
There is no solution other then private matches for premades and tournaments to create the illusion of a competitive scene and push virtual egos. But thats actually a good thing, everybody's ego need some love right :P?
The best would be to accept, there are no rules, and everything is allowed, as long its not an hack or exploit against the rules of the provider/devs.
This game allows us to change doff and boff setups not in fight but when we get out of it, so with the right time and capital every "premade" or group of friends who invest time to train, build a setup, learn the meta, learn the skill to fly the ship and execute tactics that are planned via the meta strategy can also learn to adapt, and counter. The only question should be, do we have enough counters that actually work properly. And i say we don't.
And to come back to the topic.
The PVP in this game was made for pugs vs pugs not premade vs premade.
After all those changes more to burst and faster kills with massive bleedthrough changes of the game only premades can compete with premades, cause even the heals need to be planned, executed beside the alphas, stuns, nukes and all the coordinated spamm.
And even then its more setup related. (setup inclued equipp,boff layout, doff layout, macro/bind layout) then skill related (execution of tactics and order of skill use).
And here we see the problem, premades will ruin the fun of pugs. And pugs cant chose to not fight premades. Since the queue system itself is broken. What would help all? Easy: Teams from more then 3 people can just queue up for team pvp. So just 2 new queues Capture and Hold team vs team, and arena team vs team. Problem not solved but this would be a decent change after all those years.
Also for all of the guys who think this game has or will ever be a real competitive pvp game some kind of e TRIBBLE ranking. BUT please no special pvp gear and skills.
This game lost already a lot of its former past in skill requirement for tactics and kills compared to the past. But gained a lot of meta strategy.
Well I m not sure if the puggers crying foul are more in denial and selfish, or those that pretend that STO was always marketed and designed to be an e-sport. Bottom line both are fed up with the state of pvp. I don't share your assumption about the general misgivings of puggers. As you say yourself, three premade players in the ir premade set-up can easily dominate the queues. The demand for separate queues is just a demand for a random element to level the playing field and keep matches fun and more varied. Just like many PvP'ers despise PvE for its predictability, seeing the same three guys in arena after arena killing the randoms in the same way... is plain boring.... for both sides.
A premade queue with special rewards could be farmed by large PvE groups if private matches stay they way they are now. Just to be clear I don't think that using private challenges to get you kdf ground kill accolades is exploiting or doing anything wrong, neither is not having shields or armor in private farming matches. You play the game and don't ruin anybodies fun, you even communicate with other players so that's a plus. Then again foundry rewards have been nerfed for similar behavior. So whats the plan here devs?
I mean would a private office and a giant holo statue on ESD of player toons be enough of a special reward, or do you have more power creep gear in mind? I could see e.g. large Mark boxes be a reward for premade queues. But special gear seems a bad idea. Who still wants to bring unrepped new players on their team when it ruins their rewards against other established premades?
Matchmaking ala hilbert could probably cure many ills if implemented by Cryptic. How about special bonus event where going into public queues as part of a team doubles your rewards? There are so many options. It's time the designers in charge of this pro-game step up and show us how they envisions their elite top-end high level players in exceeding expectations builds to coexist with those that pay the bills. What about FvK, or friggin rommies? So many things to do king of the hill, new pvevp, .... pre-made queues seem like pretty far down on the list to me.
Vitriol against other players doesn't help either ones cause, and pvp will stay a mess regardless of experience or skill level. Cryptic's neglect is the issue, not general character flaws of wanna be gaming pros or weekend warriors.
I'm all for special rewards without power-creep. But without a complete revamp to systems general design approach pre-made queues might as well just come with an i-win token in the lobi store. The resource demand for l33t set-ups has become that silly, and if Cryptic were to start taking competitive game-play serious that would be the first problem to address.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
2 cents:
PVP in this game could be great. For somethin the devs don't pay any attention to, it's a solid system with great depth and versatility. The problem lies not with the system itself per say, but with the inability of the players to understand their role in team play.
Given, the PVE portion of the game does nothing to prepare you for anything like the arenas or cap splode or kerrat even. That does not take away from from the individual player's ability to survey their captain's abilities and the ships layed out before them to determine an optimal layout to maximize that players impact in a team environment.
When it comes down to it, every game I'm playing right now since my hiatus appears to take tremendous grind and practice to get the gear and experience to perform in PVP. Yet it seems only here players are so against playing their suited role in a team environment.
These other games have options to, well.... "Kirk it up" so to speak in STO lingo. But when it comes to pvp, I found 3 communities that have a drive to really dial in to their class and maximize their impact for the team. Communication, through voice chat or bind text calling, and regular reflection post match on what could have gone better. It was really a sight to see, this past week of vacation.
So, I don't think it's premades or PUGs. It's the player base.
Those who wish to dedicate the time are just not here in mass. And universal consoles and power creep just add to the frustration.
Have fun kill bad guys.
-horizon
Hey Horizon, glad you chimed in since you were mentioned in the thread.
Anyway, taking a little break myself, only logging in for rep grind and the occasional premade match or tournament.
So, a few of us are playing WarThunder, a nice WW2 themed air combat game. Check it out, you might like it. I got a certain nuclear physicist coming to play it too. lol. My handle is _sp_bmr1580 You should try it.
I live in one of those environments, nothing prevents me from:
A) Making important keybinds.
Unless you are doing top end premade v premade, tournament level stuff - you can be on TS, listen and participate with team chat keybinds and increase your performance by quite a lot.
A cheap set of headphones costs about 5 to 25 USD.
And what will you do when someone is mean to you in the real world?
Stay inside forever?
There are jackholes in this world.
Developing a thick skin and learning how to either avoid them, out-think them or let their stupidity bounce off you are lessons that everyone should learn and apply to their entire life - not just gaming.
Or "you" (the general you) can crawl into a hole, and hide from all the nasty people and let them win.
How do they win?
Well, they've pushed you so far into a corner you deprive yourself of meeting good people.
It can be difficult. Oh, no doubt I agree 99.9% about the listening part...but it's that 0.1% that's a real doozie there. You know how folks can be tools on the forums or in chat in the game...yeah...when you actually hear them, well - it's a lot harder just to shrug it off. There's a tendency to watch to find them...and instead of doing a /facepalm, introduce your palm to their face.
I've left guilds, corps, clans, etc, etc, etc...just not wanting to have to listen to some of the garbage that's being said.
Without diligent and rigorous controls in place - it's just not worth it...
...random good people in a video game aren't worth the garbage that's out there.
Good points horizon. Now in these three games, I assume the gear grind to be PvE grind? And are you rewarded for playing to your classes strength during that grind? I think the resistance of the player-base to min-max their class, is simple how badly sci and eng are suited for STO PvE compared to Tacs. Who needs a full heal boat in ISE, or CC healer? Who needs SNB?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
There's a difference between online games and the real world. In the real world if someone is abusive like that you can phone the police, you can get restraining orders and generally most people do not act like that at least due to peer pressure.
In an online "community" behaviour like that is very common against women, the elderly and even kids. There's a lot of abuse that normally people might not say and there's a difference between hearing it once and blocking to hearing it every single time you switch on the microphone or hop in team speak.
You can have as thick skin as you want but after a certain point you just decide FU and don't bother with that sort of thing outside of established friends.
It's not crawling into a hole, it's avoiding the torrent of moronic abuse. As VD says a lot of the time the random good people are just not worth it in a video game a lot of the time.
As for key binds etc, there's a thread in the PvP forums, why not post a key bind file as a sort of standard for them to use that has "attack X", heals please, science team please etc.That way it's easily accessible for new players. If I'm mistaken sorry but last I looked iI didn't see one.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
That applies to the internet in general and is no different in online multiplayer games. However, you have the option of muting or avoiding that stuff, so it's hardly surprising some people do.
Of course, there's lots of good and nice people out there, but let's not pretend STO's is the best playerbase out there, or even that the good outnumber the bad apples, looking at those communicating in-game, in the standard channels, whispers and pm's. Or maybe they do, but are the bad apples just a very vocal minority. I don't exclude the possibility. I most certainly have been yelled at more than engaged in friendly banter, if I ignore fleet chat, and I tend to know what I'm doing, at least. That's hardly encouraging for people without much experience with communication platforms.
I remember games that offered their own IRC servers. Back then, these issues existed and they haven't changed a bit. I can totally understand and sympathise with those that see voice comm as an extra option for annoyance or abuse that they can do without.
Myself, I often play in situations where people will occasionally talk to me and be either working or watching television. That means I will often be playing muted, and in situations where headphones would be kind of rude. So yes, I got some keybinding and just type the rest in chat. *shrug* Tends to work just fine, if you have a team that knows/understands.
That's your opinion on it, and that's something I'll have to respect.
Unlike yourself though, unfortunately I think too many players who feel like this also feel entitled to what they perceive as "fair" game-play. (meaning, I think you accept the reality of it)
Of course "fair" in this instance means "Please remove the advantage the other players have because they are willing to use TS/Vent."
That's definitely at the core of this issue of "premades" - because one of the biggest advantages is simple voice chat.
In online games you can use the ignore feature, leave the TS/Vent server or simply mute that person for you.
Do you think I don't know about people like this? My fleet has an open TS server, we take the good with the bad in order to host TD matches.
You can feel about it however you choose.
You're going off in a direction very different from what I originally posted.
Unfortunately you have people who are so introverted that the mere suggestion that they use something like TS sends them into a rage, much less being "told how to play".
There are people who spew the vitriol you are talking about at the mere mention of voice chat. People who denounced Boot Camp without even trying it, simply because they had an issue in the past or simply imagined one.
My main point in all of this is that players who are willing to concede a huge advantage in voice chat, should also be prepared to lose when facing players who use it.
My problem is when these "me first" attitude players, unwilling to find friends/fleet mates to team with, unwilling to adapt their build/playstyle to team dynamics, unwilling to utilize voice chat, unwilling to play for the team instead of themselves come to the forums and let their sense of entitlement demand that the players who do use those things be sent to a separate queue so the "me first" players can enjoy their own little walled garden.
If you concede all of the things that make teaming strong, be prepared to lose in a team vs. team environment like Arena.
If anything , what those players need is a 1v1 queue - then they can find out just how poorly designed 1v1 is in this game.
Yeah, it's definitely my choice to avoid TS like the plague - it doesn't mean other folks that do not have the issue with it should not have access to it. If they've got a cool bunch they run with or if they're more patient/tolerant than I am...awesome for them. Like I agreed with you, even just listening (and well, in my case being able to type too fast) can provide a huge advantage...and if folks can partake of it, I highly recommend they do.
I don't see it as an exploit...and well, it's just generally depressing that I have that low of an opinion of the majority of players out there; but that's not a reason that others shouldn't be able to use it.
Still, one of the things I find funny about non-voice comms is the number of folks that call a target with a keybind...rather than just having a keybind saying "my target".
There's an option in the Control tab of Options for "Assist target on attack" - and well, yeah - it's basically what it says.
For example:
You (F1)
Tom (F2)
Jerry (F3)
Bugs (F4)
Daffy (F5)
Say Jerry's calling targets. He drops out, "target Willard the Rat" in the team chat. How many folks are going to be trying to click around the map or tab around the map until they target Willard? How many are going to hit F3 and attack...in turn attacking Jerry's target?
Heck, even if they're out of range so it doesn't kick over for some reason - by selecting Jerry, they should be able to see Jerry's target and click it from there as they do move into range.
Then of course, well - one can get into the various Macro Keyboards/Mice - and the chat messages one can run from those keys without tying up their other binds.
No, they're not going to be as versatile as voice comms - but in the end, there's that entitlement thing you mention. Heh, but then again - I've admitted to having a low opinion of the majority of players out there...heh. But yeah, there is a lot of entitlement - not only in them having things, but in not having to do things. So many folks don't even want to try.
If somebody doesn't care enough to try, they shouldn't care enough to complain about it...
...but yeah, ahem, they tend to save up all their energy from not trying so they've got plenty to complain about things. :P
For all of the love of teamspeak, teamwork, and coordination, I personally still do my best flying and killing when I am pugging it listening to slayer blast in my ears, alone.
TS and all that are just a distraction in many cases. The only time you might "need" them are if youre going hardcore mode against another hardcore mode team doing the same thing.
I dunno, its just something ive noticed. When we took the coordination out the other night after a long day of PvPing in our premade group... I flew like I remember I used to be able to.
When I actually thought I was good. Before I realized I am still learning to be a team player (at least in this game, have done it in many other games).
I felt... strong.
Anyone else ever get this? Just going out and relying on just your own personal skills, knowing you have no healer to back you, no wingman to help you kill your target. Just you, some guns, and your wits.
Love that stuff man.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
That's how it is at first. Then you start getting used to speaking, teamwork, and you and your team becomes better for it.
I never talked at all, at first. My team leader had to force the rest of the guys to communicate. And now we can't shut up. :P But it has made us stronger as a result.
There's no substitute for being able to quickly communicate you or your teammates status, etc on the fly.
This...
...causes ol' VD to WTF?
While one of the reasons I do not like voice comms in general is because they can be too chatty, folks babbling about the most inane things without any comm discipline...
...yeah, there's no music. No in-game music. No music streaming. No music on the stereo.
It's not so much that it's a distraction, not a case of jumping up and dancing in front of the keyboard like a bad SNL skit...it's a case of potentially not hearing something.
You hear buffs - the folks in front of you do not show any SFX nor additional buffs...yeah, there's somebody behind you.
Music just kills situational awareness in a game like this. Course, it's sheer lunacy that a BOFF can't whisper in the captain's ear without decloaking a ship...but the ship itself can make sounds that can be heard up to 10km away without decloaking...but that's the way the game is.
PVE? Yep, Spotify or some YouTube channel is going to be in play.
PVP? I'm listening as much as I'm looking...
But, but, but...okay, I'll spare everybody the philosophical spiel about that zen-like trance of a team operating as a single organism. :P
Also, there should be nothing audible to warn your opponents that you're activating an ability. I'm on the fence about the little indicators next to your character status. There's no rational reason why they should know when I'm hitting TT or APO, and the only way they should know if I'm buffing a certain weapon is either by interpreting scans of my power routing, or watching me open fire.
Furthermore, giving someone the ability to talk into my ear is giving them the ability to give me orders, b***h at me for not playing the "role" they assign me, or in general just talk trash. Not everyone can put together a team of 5 friends all at once.
I know, but what im getting at is I still feel like I play my best game when I am not doing that.
Takes the pressure off I guess. Either letting the team down or the team letting me down? Usually the former, lolz.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Outside of an actual sound made by said ability, I agree with this. Little random "power up" sounds are silly. But that's the nature of the game...they're there...they are part of having some iota of situational awareness in the game. Music interferes with that...
Thanks, you've done a better job of proving my point than I ever could have done by myself. You sir, are a shining example of why the "I'm Captain Kirk" playerbase is the biggest problem with PvP.
Okay, what isn't a 1 trick pony? You're either doing your thing with weapons or space magic. Why is 1 pony worse than the other?
So it's a "problem" that someone doesn't know four other people who play this game? :rolleyes:
Heck, even using more than one weapon is more creative than hammering two or three GW buttons over and over. Then there's maneuvers beyond "fly in a circle."
No, it's not a problem that someone doesn't know four other people. It is a problem when that person doesn't make the attempt. Certain roles are necessary in PvP, if only to counter other players who are filling said roles.