PUGs vs Premades, what's the real issue?

brandonfl

So what do you guys think? Is it the premades ruining the queues, or is it solo players with no sense of teamplay that are ruining them?

Personally, I feel that if more players made the effort to find or form PvP teams that the queues would be a lot more fun. I PUG a lot and am frequently more frustrated by my own team than that evil premade on the other side. Honestly, in many cases if my team had known and played their roles in a team environment (wait! is that Engi cruiser carrying EPtS3, RSP2 and EWP3?), many of those matches against premades would have been roflstomps the other way. How many of you have been blessed by the queue gods and been teamed with good players who know their roles? It does happen, and that's when you see premades fall to PUGs.

Discuss...

pokersmith1

Well, one time i was frustrated because no matter how hard i tried, they would never let me grab my go down fighting.

It was a pretty decent fight, I think the other team had two ppl from same fleet playing as a team. We won though.

marc8219

I think the issue is pvp is getting boring because the PVP community is so small and isn't growing because people aren't able to learn enough to be able to decide they want to stick with it or join pugmades or premades before being stomped and quitting pvp.

I queue with my fleet sometimes and its almost always boring against pugs so I would prefer for them to gain more experience against other pugs first then they might be more fun to fight. Also since I play at weird hours sometimes I can use the random queue when my fleet isn't on, or when I am playing my Fed since my fleet is KDF.

Larger pool of PVPers means there will be new PVP fleets formed, and existing ones may get bigger, so more fun for everyone, fleets and solo players.

talzerotwo

The real issue (at least from my pov) are the following and they tie in with each other...

1a) Accountability: Fleets will vary as to what is acceptable and what isn't as far as doffs, consoles, etc are. One can dictate what should or shouldn't be used in the public ques, but in reality, people are going to run whatever they want with or without the approval of the opvp community. You will rarely get a full team of sci captains in random ques, but you will when you form a team of them.

1b) There really is nothing stopping a premade premade from "breaking the ques". This is a phrase I have heard too many times... from friends and strangers. They take satisfaction in the fact that they force people from no longer wanting to que up... effectively leaving the pvp ques dead. "We broke the ques, **** yeah." I find that disgusting, and feel it is unfortunate that I hear it from in game friends and acquaintances. I love pvp, I love pugmading, I love random soloing, on occasion I like to premade... but never to the point or with the purpose of breaking the ques.

2) In my opinion, the majority of Bridge Officer and Captain abilities are not broken when used in a random team setting. However, when such abilities are planned around in a premade setting, then issues arise as to what is balanced and what is unbalanced. When I say premade, I mean a premade premade, not a pre-formed pugmade.

Yes in part, things can be attributed to a lack of skill of some players, but if I'm being honest, it only takes one premade to ruin the afternoon, morning or evening for some people. If I do run into one, I try to form a premade myself to get them to stop... but in retrospect one would have to roll whatever pugmades you find before you even get to the premade in question.

I support a separate solo que.

bpharma

Maybe looking at games where there are huge PvP communities would yield answers both in MMOs and other types of games.

I mean Counterstrike, CoD and Starcraft have huge numbers of players playing against players not sticking to single player. If anything that's become a major selling point too.

So what's different? Why are people willing to play against other players in these games but not in STO? I mean people in those games can be as much of a d**k as in this game and people die and lose just as much, so what gives? Why are people not wanting to go fight against other players here?

I know out of the 2 examples above only one of them has any form of stratified matchmaking (well last I checked) so it's not like they're balanced games necessarily.

talzerotwo

bpharma wrote: »

Maybe looking at games where there are huge PvP communities would yield answers both in MMOs and other types of games.

I mean Counterstrike, CoD and Starcraft have huge numbers of players playing against players not sticking to single player. If anything that's become a major selling point too.

So what's different? Why are people willing to play against other players in these games but not in STO? I mean people in those games can be as much of a d**k as in this game and people die and lose just as much, so what gives? Why are people not wanting to go fight against other players here?

I know out of the 2 examples above only one of them has any form of stratified matchmaking (well last I checked) so it's not like they're balanced games necessarily.

Perhaps abilities in those games might lend themselves to not being "op" if used in a full team quantity? (therefore wins become less character ability based and more skill based). Not sure myself, just tossing ideas out there.

mcduffie369

The real issue is that a 5 man team running broken or over powered doffs and spamming science abilities that make control impossible or lagg a pc. It's just too much when a group of players decide to use these combinations against someone who is more interested in being themselves.
Also, the premade teams have no code of conduct and they leave sour tastes in the mouths of the majority of the community who pvp to have a little fun with their personalized character.
Premades, if you want to be a member of the clone army you know where to go. Leave us in peace.

thay8472

mcduffie369 wrote: »

The real issue is that a 5 man team running broken or over powered doffs and spamming science abilities that make control impossible or lagg a pc. It's just too much when a group of players decide to use these combinations against someone who is more interested in being themselves.
Also, the premade teams have no code of conduct and they leave sour tastes in the mouths of the majority of the community who pvp to have a little fun with their personalized character.
Premades, if you want to be a member of the clone army you know where to go. Leave us in peace.

Execute order 66.

talzerotwo

Mcduffle, as an occasional premade myself, I find it best to not generalize all premades if one wants to make a change in the game. Generalizing can detract from core issues.

johnny111971

I think the core issue is there is a vast experience gap between new players, and premade. Nothing wrong with a premade mind you.

But, taking random players who are inexperienced and throwing them in with a premade team is a recipe for disaster. This is the main reason I advocate for a Solo queue (completely randomized teams with a balance pass (Mancoms algorithms for example... where matches are completely random team, and there is an attempt to balance them). And a Team Queue, where premades/pugmades/fleetmades can queue with their buds...

talzerotwo

johnny111971 wrote: »

I think the core issue is there is a vast experience gap between new players, and premade. Nothing wrong with a premade mind you.

But, taking random players who are inexperienced and throwing them in with a premade team is a recipe for disaster. This is the main reason I advocate for a Solo queue (completely randomized teams with a balance pass (Mancoms algorithms for example... where matches are completely random team, and there is an attempt to balance them). And a Team Queue, where premades/pugmades/fleetmades can queue with their buds...

Two thumbs up on this, kudos.

bpharma

The experience gap certainly does factor into it but to pin it all on that I don't think is fair. I know some people who know a lot about the game but only play PvE. They may not be up to the meta in PvP but to say they are not experienced isn't a good idea.

I think gear makes a lot of difference, I mean get a team together in OPvP and use only white or green gear against those with elite fleet ultra rare everything, no ultra rare doffs (by that I mean things like Marion, attack pattern doffs etc) and no lockbox ships against a normal OPvP team or even another remade with all their usual stuff. Do you have a chance even with experience and teamwork?

I'm serious try it out, I'd love to know how it goes over a few games but I have a feeling it will be very one sided.

Also if you want to continue to do your speed runs on PvE then you will need to use different boffs. In fact if you want to be able to switch things up in PvP combat you will need extra boffs and doffs and be able to switch as needed. You would perhaps also need to carry different gear to help switch your build up to stand a chance against what the enemy is spamming.

Better get yer wallets out if you want extra choices to be competitive. To paraphrase Zelda in another post: 2 Jem Hadar attack ships, a recluse and 2 wells IS a standard set up in PvP. Which kinda feeds back into the gear thing too. To be competitive it is expensive in time and money while having fun killing Borg guys is not.

I think that also compounds the issue too.

brandonfl

mcduffie369 wrote: »

The real issue is that a 5 man team running broken or over powered doffs and spamming science abilities that make control impossible or lagg a pc. It's just too much when a group of players decide to use these combinations against someone who is more interested in being themselves.
Also, the premade teams have no code of conduct and they leave sour tastes in the mouths of the majority of the community who pvp to have a little fun with their personalized character.
Premades, if you want to be a member of the clone army you know where to go. Leave us in peace.

That's a fairly broad generalization. For instance, in Pandas, you can't use TIF, GPG, SS Doffs or Yellowstones/Danubes. Some of us do try to keep it clean. To lump all teams together so is a fallacy at the least and myopic at the worst.

edit: Boff powers alone can lag out the UI these days, the thing seems held together with string and silly putty.

brandonfl

bpharma wrote: »

The experience gap certainly does factor into it but to pin it all on that I don't think is fair. I know some people who know a lot about the game but only play PvE. They may not be up to the meta in PvP but to say they are not experienced isn't a good idea.

I think gear makes a lot of difference, I mean get a team together in OPvP and use only white or green gear against those with elite fleet ultra rare everything, no ultra rare doffs (by that I mean things like Marion, attack pattern doffs etc) and no lockbox ships against a normal OPvP team or even another remade with all their usual stuff. Do you have a chance even with experience and teamwork?

I'm serious try it out, I'd love to know how it goes over a few games but I have a feeling it will be very one sided.

You're right, gear does matter. More so now than ever before. During S3 for instance, your proposal would have been laughed at, everyone knew skill>gear. I remember some Fox News Correspondents who spent a few days destroying everything in their path... in T3 ships (After losing to them twice, I made the proper response. I put a team together that could work together to beat them). Now, yes gear is more important and has a much larger impact on the efficacy of your build. Still, I don't know of any gear that is available to vet players that isn't available to new players (except for limited time things like RMC/SteamRunner Console, etc..).

johnny111971

brandonfl wrote: »

That's a fairly broad generalization. For instance, in Pandas, you can't use TIF, GPG, SS Doffs or Yellowstones/Danubes. Some of us do try to keep it clean. To lump all teams together so is a fallacy at the least and myopic at the worst.

Completely agree... not all Premades are out there with the full intent of ruining/breaking the queues or pugstomping.

It also should be said, that I have heard its difficult for Premades to find matches at points... which makes the queues a necessity for them as well in order to play with their buds. Tyler Durden is an option, but that goes back to randomized teams after a balance pass (which could break up some teams).

Again, another reason why a Team Queue and a Solo Queue would be advantageous, people queuing with teams (such as premades) stand a better chance at finding a worthy fight. This is something I have heard from many a premade... They aren't looking to pugstomp... they'd much rather have a "good fight".

And Brandonfl, I will say, after the imfamous cheese team... I have come across Panda Teams in the queue since, and would agree that I see a much cleaner fight... we still lost ... by a wide margin... but it was skill not cheese that beat us (and was completely OK with that).

So to the Panda's; Thank you for trying to curb the amount cheese/broken mechanics in use by your teams. Wish the same could be said of all PvP Fleets.

mimey2

bpharma wrote: »

Maybe looking at games where there are huge PvP communities would yield answers both in MMOs and other types of games.

I mean Counterstrike, CoD and Starcraft have huge numbers of players playing against players not sticking to single player. If anything that's become a major selling point too.

So what's different? Why are people willing to play against other players in these games but not in STO? I mean people in those games can be as much of a d**k as in this game and people die and lose just as much, so what gives? Why are people not wanting to go fight against other players here?

I know out of the 2 examples above only one of them has any form of stratified matchmaking (well last I checked) so it's not like they're balanced games necessarily.

I think it's the fact that it is Star Trek itself is to blame on that. I mean think about everything Star Trek every focused on: A single ship, and it's crew. Every show, movie, and game, pretty much has done that, even STO itself. Technically even teamed PvE events are kinda like that, yes there are other people there, but YOU are the hero, so to speak, YOU help the Romulans with the Tholians, YOU discover the Dyson Sphere, etc. Heck, even in some of their advertisements they use, they include phrases like 'You are the captain!'.

That kind of mentality is kept through your basic leveling as well, essentially, if you ignore EVERYONE else, STO is a one-player game until you hit level 50. As such, people still have that mentality (not all of them, I know that) and they haven't been taught anything about 'teamwork' or stuff like that. Hence the 'Captain Kirks' of the game, and also the term' Kirking'.

People have that thought in their head, it's pretty hard to get it out.

des101

It's been brought up many times that whilst there is nothing wrong with premades, they shouldn't be queued with the normal pugs. There is no ifs or buts.. You go Premade, you fight against other Premades.

SIMPLE

To disagree with that simple statement indicates that:

a) The only way your premade can win is to pugstomp
b) You are too frightened to go up against other Premades as your ego will be torn to shreds.
c) You are purposely going up against pugs to ruin their gaming experience
d) There aren't any other Premades to go up against!! Which lets be honest, is total rubbish :cool:


You can easily arrange your own matches via this forum.. post, reply, work out times.. not hard to do.


Now I issue a challenge to all Pre-mades out there. Remove all your "OP" gear, fit only white gear and then join the queues. See how long you last

Bar probably a handful of players, most will crash and burn.


And it comes back down to that same old issue.. GEAR.. I've posted in numerous other threads about this:


"Only when ships have a duplicate set of slots for PvP use only and these slots are limited to Common gear, will PvP become fun again."

Now I don't blame the players. We fit what we have to to stay alive or to kill someone. Until Cryptic or PWE pull their heads out the sand and fix this mess, things will continue to get worse.

pokersmith1

Agree with what mimey said. In all of STO's storyline and queue missions, there is no single point in time where team work is emphasized. In fact, if there ever was any mission that even slightly needed team work to accomplish mission successfully, they have been time and again nerfed or removed altogether (read: STFs of the old, terradome, old crystalline catastrophe, etc). What this does to an average player is reinforce their belief in being able to do everything by themselves. They expect to be able to dish out as well as tank, all by themselves, and research for such build naturally leads to selfish builds. These guys, then, when they pug up, are less than useful to their team. Neither their ships, nor their mentality are ever prepared to handle facing an even slightly coordinated opposition. Net outcome after such match is that many of these average player will deem PvP to be 'stupid' after only a handlful of matches. Thus, the 'rift' between pvp and pve players grow ever wider.

marc8219

brandonfl wrote: »

You're right, gear does matter. More so now than ever before. During S3 for instance, your proposal would have been laughed at, everyone knew skill>gear. I remember some Fox News Correspondents who spent a few days destroying everything in their path... in T3 ships (After losing to them twice, I made the proper response. I put a team together that could work together to beat them). Now, yes gear is more important and has a much larger impact on the efficacy of your build. Still, I don't know of any gear that is available to vet players that isn't available to new players (except for limited time things like RMC/SteamRunner Console, etc..).

Your fleet is one of the few that I have seen check opvp for matches, most premades haven't been bothering to do that. I seen several of them do this in a row, so not having other premades on is no excuse, its obvious there are many premades out there intentionally avoiding other premades and pugstomping.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

mancom

des101 wrote: »

d) There aren't any other Premades to go up against!! Which lets be honest, is total rubbish

This kind of statement usually comes from someone who has never been part of a (good) premade group.

I haven't played in true premades in a long time, but back in the day we used to have a group and when we roamed the queues it was like this: even when we knew that there was another premade out there in the queues (and unfortunately the queue did not start a match between the two groups) and even it was from a fleet that we knew had members in OPVP, most of the time they would not respond to a "any premades out there?" call because they did not want to lose (yes, there was a time, long long ago when this group was so dominant that even most others premades did not stand a chance).

Exactly the same issue that leads to problems today ("if I queue up again, I will lose again, so I won't queue up again") would also appear in a team queue, only much worse because due to the very limited number of organised groups the population of that queue would be tiny and your chance to meet the same group again would not be <10% like in the current queue system, but rather >90% (numbers are made up, but you get the idea) and thus the team queue most likely would be dead if a dominant team starts queueing. Therefore calling for a complete division of the two modes essentially means calling for an end of teamed queueing.

A better matchmaking algorithm (which as far as I can see is not a particularly difficult task) could provide the best of both worlds (BORG!?) - giving all players a fighting chance and punishing full (or partial) premades only via longer queue times, not by effectively banning them from playing together.

p2wsucks

"Pre-mades" to w/e degree aren't ruining the queues. The crappy game is.

Various bugs + pay for power + time gated pve grinds for rep/gear + fleet grinds puts a big barrier for a new player. Easy PvE allows for breezing through the game w/o learning mechanics of Boff, Doff, Gear, etc., not to mention the lack of playing off others.

Not as new players overly rely on lolz power creep flavor of the month.

Tbh, I'd rather they have a queue system that disabled all but white gear, and boff and captain powers and base kdf/fed ships. Imo, not only would it be more fun, but allow for a learning curve of basic mechanics like power mgt, piloting, builds and counter builds, timing and teamwork.

Why people would complain about teamwork and not the power creep and broken mechanics at their disposal is beyond me.

des101

mancom wrote: »

This kind of statement usually comes from someone who has never been part of a (good) premade group.

I haven't played in true premades in a long time, but back in the day we used to have a group and when we roamed the queues it was like this: even when we knew that there was another premade out there in the queues (and unfortunately the queue did not start a match between the two groups) and even it was from a fleet that we knew had members in OPVP, most of the time they would not respond to a "any premades out there?" call because they did not want to lose (yes, there was a time, long long ago when this group was so dominant that even most others premades did not stand a chance).

Exactly the same issue that leads to problems today ("if I queue up again, I will lose again, so I won't queue up again") would also appear in a team queue, only much worse because due to the very limited number of organised groups the population of that queue would be tiny and your chance to meet the same group again would not be <10% like in the current queue system, but rather >90% (numbers are made up, but you get the idea) and thus the team queue most likely would be dead if a dominant team starts queueing. Therefore calling for a complete division of the two modes essentially means calling for an end of teamed queueing.

A better matchmaking algorithm (which as far as I can see is not a particularly difficult task) could provide the best of both worlds (BORG!?) - giving all players a fighting chance and punishing full (or partial) premades only via longer queue times, not by effectively banning them from playing together.

Please refer to answer "b" on my original post then

p2wsucks

mancom wrote: »

This kind of statement usually comes from someone who has never been part of a (good) premade group.

I haven't played in true premades in a long time, but back in the day we used to have a group and when we roamed the queues it was like this: even when we knew that there was another premade out there in the queues (and unfortunately the queue did not start a match between the two groups) and even it was from a fleet that we knew had members in OPVP, most of the time they would not respond to a "any premades out there?" call because they did not want to lose (yes, there was a time, long long ago when this group was so dominant that even most others premades did not stand a chance).

Exactly the same issue that leads to problems today ("if I queue up again, I will lose again, so I won't queue up again") would also appear in a team queue, only much worse because due to the very limited number of organised groups the population of that queue would be tiny and your chance to meet the same group again would not be <10% like in the current queue system, but rather >90% (numbers are made up, but you get the idea) and thus the team queue most likely would be dead if a dominant team starts queueing. Therefore calling for a complete division of the two modes essentially means calling for an end of teamed queueing.

A better matchmaking algorithm (which as far as I can see is not a particularly difficult task) could provide the best of both worlds (BORG!?) - giving all players a fighting chance and punishing full (or partial) premades only via longer queue times, not by effectively banning them from playing together.

I don't won't to come off as dumping on your work and try to stay away from it, but imo ladder/ranking systems have inherent flaws.

The biggest being people playing to the leader board rather than the match at hand. Going back to DoTA pugs I used to do, I'd seen far too much selfish play chasing the leader board brass ring.

It also tends to discourage variety of playstyles/builds even those done for fun w/emphasis of effectiveness.

Then there are things like smurfing ie creating alt toons w/poor records for the opportunity of going on a stomp run for lolz.

Lastly, this game changes often enough w/enough power creep and just things not WAD even if Cryptic were to have a match system it couldn't keep up w/the changes effectively, imo.

thissler

talzerotwo wrote: »

1b) There really is nothing stopping a premade premade from "breaking the ques". This is a phrase I have heard too many times... from friends and strangers. They take satisfaction in the fact that they force people from no longer wanting to que up... effectively leaving the pvp ques dead. "We broke the ques, **** yeah." I find that disgusting, and feel it is unfortunate that I hear it from in game friends and acquaintances. I love pvp, I love pugmading, I love random soloing, on occasion I like to premade... but never to the point or with the purpose of breaking the ques.

[/B]

This is the truth. Anything else is just a lie. If it wasn't the truth, there would be no issues, no threads like this one.

But there are threads like this one.

rylanadionysis

Hilbert, I think your leaderboard is a good step forward, but the input is so limited on who can that many of us that PvP outside of that small inner circle have very few if any stats to balance vs.

Are there any plans to expand input?

brandonfl

rylanadionysis wrote: »

Hilbert, I think your leaderboard is a good step forward, but the input is so limited on who can that many of us that PvP outside of that small inner circle have very few if any stats to balance vs.

Are there any plans to expand input?

Send Hilbert an in-game mail. @mancom (I'm taking some liberty because Hilbert made this offer in another thread.)

He'll send you the link and a key to begin reporting. It's very easy to do. The client runs in the background. All you have to do is start the client and turn on your combatlog.

Please though, for the sake of better matches for all in TD, report every match. The actual ranking isn't what's important here. It's the average performance of the players involved.

marc8219

mancom wrote: »

This kind of statement usually comes from someone who has never been part of a (good) premade group.

I haven't played in true premades in a long time, but back in the day we used to have a group and when we roamed the queues it was like this: even when we knew that there was another premade out there in the queues (and unfortunately the queue did not start a match between the two groups) and even it was from a fleet that we knew had members in OPVP, most of the time they would not respond to a "any premades out there?" call because they did not want to lose (yes, there was a time, long long ago when this group was so dominant that even most others premades did not stand a chance).

Exactly the same issue that leads to problems today ("if I queue up again, I will lose again, so I won't queue up again") would also appear in a team queue, only much worse because due to the very limited number of organised groups the population of that queue would be tiny and your chance to meet the same group again would not be <10% like in the current queue system, but rather >90% (numbers are made up, but you get the idea) and thus the team queue most likely would be dead if a dominant team starts queueing. Therefore calling for a complete division of the two modes essentially means calling for an end of teamed queueing.

A better matchmaking algorithm (which as far as I can see is not a particularly difficult task) could provide the best of both worlds (BORG!?) - giving all players a fighting chance and punishing full (or partial) premades only via longer queue times, not by effectively banning them from playing together.

If a pug only queue was made and people desert the teamed PVP queues then obviously that would be what the majority of the player base wants so it would still be the right decision. Private matches organized on OPvP and TD and in tournaments can still take place.

johnny111971

thissler wrote: »

This is the truth. Anything else is just a lie. If it wasn't the truth, there would be no issues, no threads like this one.

But there are threads like this one.

This is the driving force behind my suggestions to have Solo (Completely Random Queues), and Team Queues.

brandonfl

johnny111971 wrote: »

This is the driving force behind my suggestions to have Solo (Completely Random Queues), and Team Queues.

Won't work. Matchmaking might, though.

Take MWO for example. They introduced team and solo queues. Do you know what happened? The teams that didn't want to lose for the sake of their egos (the same types that are guilty of what was described in the post you quoted) just figured out a way to drop into the queues at the same time and be placed on the same "random" team. This failed in MWO because their matchmaking (at the time) was simply based on the total weight of the mechs on each side. It didn't take into account, experience, kdr, gear, etc.. The same thing will happen in STO because STO matchmaking doesn't take anything more than just your presence in the queue into account. Again, if we had functional matchmaking, there wouldn't be a cry for separate queues.

johnny111971

brandonfl wrote: »

Won't work. Matchmaking might, though.

Take MWO for example. They introduced team and solo queues. Do you know what happened? The teams that didn't want to lose for the sake of their egos (the same types that are guilty of what was described in the post you quoted) just figured out a way to drop into the queues at the same time and be placed on the same "random" team. This failed in MWO because their matchmaking (at the time) was simply based on the total weight of the mechs on each side. It didn't take into account, experience, kdr, gear, etc.. The same thing will happen in STO because STO matchmaking doesn't take anything more than just your presence in the queue into account. Again, if we had functional matchmaking, there wouldn't be a cry for separate queues.

Perhaps Cryptic can learn from that mistake... and as I said, there would be a balance pass (same as can be done with Mancom's Balancing utility).

There would still be a possibility to be teamed with your buds in the solo queue... but the situation you describe as timing when going in, would still not result in teaming together (since there is a second step to balance the teams).