Honestly, this is my problem. I don't want to be told I should know my role and play the role people think I should. I want to take care of my own ship and have my teammates do the same. You call it 'Kirking' and make it a negative thing, but it is how many longtime gamers play, this and all other games.
What that all translates to is that you are not a team player and you are not interested in being a team player.
Fine, do as you like.
Just understand that playing a dedicated career/ship role is one of the very few simple things available to any player - premade, pugmade, pug or otherwise and does not cost EC, it does not cost dilithium and it is one of the most important things you can do in order to help your team.
Do you like team sports, of any kind?
Could you imagine if every player just went out onto the field or pitch for US Football, Soccer/Football, Basketball, Ice Hockey, etc., and just did whatever they wanted?
Who cares if its pros playing for money or a bunch of guys playing for kicks on the weekend?
The level of ability is irrelevant, what's relevant is that like those situations Arena PvP is 5v5 - that makes it a team game, and the 5 players that function as a team will win vs. the 5 players just doing whatever they want and ignoring their team mates.
So that's why it's called "kirking", we could call it the Rambo-mentality, or the "I wanna be the hero" complex.
It all boils down to the same thing, and that's an unwillingness to put your team's goals above your own desires.
So to answer your question, I am different. I bring unique strategy and unpredictable actions to a game, and those do not fit in a premade role. Winning is far less important than playing fair and trying interesting things manually (I mean, really, macros are not fun at all. I refuse to drive an automatic transmission too!). Many/most premades are not interested in playing fair, constantly trying new things, and avoiding obscene language. That is my issue.
The good premades are always trying new things, always tweaking builds and tweaking 5 man compositions.
What you believe to be unique, I believe is "anti-team".
I believe being a team player is more important than both winning and also more important than having a "me-first" attitude.
Perhaps its a matter of perspective, but I think after 3 years its pretty clear that teams that coordinate, and play for each-other generally defeat teams of "individuals" who are bent on being "unique" because of whatever subjective bias they've attached to such an attitude.
I'm sorry if it feels like I'm picking on you, you're certainly not alone in your thoughts.
There is a point though where continually reading threads full of people who refuse to be team players but also want the game to then cater to their style of play because they dislike losing to people functioning as a team that I just feel the need to call it out.
At the least I'll give you credit for being honest about it.
One thing that can doom a suggested change is to make it too complicated.
Some things people seem to agree on. While some have differing opinions on how to relieve the tension... at least its a discussion.
Some points;
Gear: While there is gear that I find questionable, I am not really in favor of gear restrictions imposed by Cryptic. As someone said Premade/Coordinated Cheese > Pug Cheese (this is most certainly the case). You also have private matches... and they should be able to set their own rules. I thing the cheese gear becomes less of an issue in the Solo Queue (since the chances of getting a full premade cheese team in a randomized/balanced solo queue is virtually non-existant). In the team queue (generally) you will find a higher caliber of groups playing (OPvP Pugmade, Fleet Teams, Premades) better able to combat the coordinated cheese.
Solo Queue: Should be join solo only... some balance pass (akin Himbert/Mancoms balancing tool) will mix the players in the queue up. Bette chance to be teamed with knowledgable players, and would "spread the cheese", or at least make it more difficult to get coordinated cheese attacks going.
Lobby System: One of my concerns about a lobby system, is it appears to me, I am not a member of a Premade, but I've heard enough stories to know that there are teams that actively avoid other premades. This would be a downside of a lobby system. If you get to pick the team you want to challenge/fight... then there is the chance that the same premades that actively look to avoid a fight against another premade would leave some premade teams just waiting in limbo... forever... Example... I form a team with some fleeties (we're not very good... yet)... I go to the lobby, and see teams waiting for a match from the well known pvp fleets... I would be hesitent to sign up for that match.
I am a strong believer in KISS. To me, the easiest solution generally ends up being the best, and achieves a large number of goals.
I - Seperate Queues... Join Solo or Join Team. If you join the team queue, your entire team is queued (solo players could still queue for the team side (to fill in that 4 man team).
II - Balance Pass (Solo queues). Looks at the individuals (again, Hilberts/Mancoms tool as its base). Nothing as deep as equipment or powers... just your historical performance)
III - Match Making (Team Queue). From the available teams in the queue each team is scored based on its members (pulled from the individuals stats... where possible the match is created based on those with the overall score... trying to match these scores as close as possible given the available teams in the queue. (I'd be willing to wait for this to happen if it would be faster to complete items I and II)
Honestly, this is my problem. I don't want to be told I should know my role and play the role people think I should. I want to take care of my own ship and have my teammates do the same. You call it 'Kirking' and make it a negative thing, but it is how many longtime gamers play, this and all other games.
I play FPS games and avoid the whole premade scene. Many of us do not want to buddy up with strangers who spew obscene language every other word. My fleet is small, I team mostly with just 1 person, we play fair (back off spawns, avoid broken items).
STO rewards the team 'pwn' mechanic more than any other game I have played. On Battlefield 2142, I could take on a whole squad solo, or with my son, and if I had the skill and strategy right we had a chance. Not in STO. In STO you can't even hurt a premade with 1 or 2 ships because of the crazy cross healing/resistances. In most PvP oriented games skill wins out, even over gear and solo players have a role (sniping, sneaking behind lines, etc).
So to answer your question, I am different. I bring unique strategy and unpredictable actions to a game, and those do not fit in a premade role. Winning is far less important than playing fair and trying interesting things manually (I mean, really, macros are not fun at all. I refuse to drive an automatic transmission too!). Many/most premades are not interested in playing fair, constantly trying new things, and avoiding obscene language. That is my issue.
That's how it works in all MMORPGs, this isn't a multiplayer FPS. If that's the style you want to play in PvP and be successful, you chose the wrong game. You've crossed genre lines and landed in an RPG where the classes are designed to play off of each other not just alongside each other.
There is a point though where continually reading threads full of people who refuse to be team players but also want the game to then cater to their style of play because they dislike losing to people functioning as a team that I just feel the need to call it out.
This, along with its counterpart 'haha my team roflstomped you pugs, you noob suck,' are probably the greatest cause of caustic verbal vomiting during/after any pvp match and likely what stops STOPvP community to grow healthily.
Just the other day in kvf, my klingon team lost 15-0 to a sci-heavy, spam and toy heavy fed team. At the end of the match, I put a "GG" in zone chat as always and one of my team shot out "what was gg about it?." So long as people don't realize that the "gg" at the end is being a good sportsman not to be taken literally, community development will remain stunted.
In fact, my approach these days is let people use whatever they want in pug matches. Sure I hate GPG, TIF, subspace rupture spammers with every fiber in my body and will try my best to make sure they are the ones to die first, but I would not act condescending towards them just because. Rules should belong in pre-arranged premade fights. As it is, pug pvp has the best chance to grow if it is a brutal streetfight. STO PvP community is small enough that we cannot afford to choose who gets and who does not get to pvp.
Do you like team sports, of any kind?
...
At the least I'll give you credit for being honest about it.
It is not selfish to want my teammates to be self sufficient. I often throw a heal to a teammate, take aggro off him, or use CC to help out. You misunderstand a desire for well rounded players instead of dedicated roles as being selfish. The entire arena match system of STO is uninteresting and lame to me. Elite Ground STFs are far more fun, even though they are easy. We constantly team up with PuGs and help them get the optionals. I enjoy using my skills to help support the team, my skills just do not fit into a predefined role.
I have flown with Captain Horizon in space PvP and had some fun (science in escort back then). They call targets and I either attack that target, or disrupt the opponents counterattack efforts.
What that all translates to is that you are not a team player and you are not interested in being a team player.
Fine, do as you like.
.
I have to say I am not much of one most of the time either, only on the weekends or times when the fleet has more on when I am on. I play weird hours during the week though so want to queue up against a lot of other people that don't want to be team players either at those times and just want faster paced pug vs pug matches then.
That's how it works in all MMORPGs, this isn't a multiplayer FPS. If that's the style you want to play in PvP and be successful, you chose the wrong game. You've crossed genre lines and landed in an RPG where the classes are designed to play off of each other not just alongside each other.
I have played RPGs for longer than most on here have been alive, lol. PvP in RPGs is either artificially balanced, or it serves as nothing more than a bragging room for those who dedicate themselves to getting OP gear. I enjoy STO, but the PvP was incomplete to begin with and has just gotten worse over the years with lack of balance and power creep. Imagine if in Starcraft you were matched against opponents with more powerful units than you, you can't.
I have PvPed in games since Combat on Atari 2600, Pong before that actually. Starcraft, Total Annihilation, Street Fighter 2, Killer Instinct, Mario Cart, Donkey Kong Country, Podracing, Herzog Zwai, Civilization, Master of Orion, Star Wars Battlefront, NFL 2K, Project Gotham Racing, Battlefield 2142, Ghost Recon Online, to name a few highlights. So my tastes are quite varied.
How many people who play in premades forget to cast tt on healer or dont talk with the team when asked "whats the target for nuke" or even refuse to stay in range for heals when they pug?
imo ~80% do that ,10% play in team when they pug and 10% never pug because have a huge black ego and hate to lose
Imagine if in Starcraft you were matched against opponents with more powerful units than you, you can't.
Imagine in starcraft (or any RTS, I don't play starcraft) your "ranged" units suddenly feel an individuality streak.
They don't want to be forced to play a ranged role, or be told what to do.
No, today, your ranged units have decided it is time to express their uniqueness and charge directly into melee range - they're not concerned that they are wholly unsuited to it, it's time to be free!!
Your best melee units are tired of all of the hard-combat, they've decide they'd much prefer to do resource gathering today - actually only some of them feel this way, some of them have decided to pick daisies, some want to use a heavy rocks to attempt something new and different as a ranged unit.
I mean why should those ranged units bother to provide fire support for the close-range units, those guys should be more self sufficient.
Imagine in starcraft (or any RTS, I don't play starcraft) your "ranged" units suddenly feel an individuality streak.
They don't want to be forced to play a ranged role, or be told what to do.
No, today, your ranged units have decided it is time to express their uniqueness and charge directly into melee range - they're not concerned that they are wholly unsuited to it, it's time to be free!!
Your best melee units are tired of all of the hard-combat, they've decide they'd much prefer to do resource gathering today - actually only some of them feel this way, some of them have decided to pick daisies, some want to use a heavy rocks to attempt something new and different as a ranged unit.
I mean why should those ranged units bother to provide fire support for the close-range units, those guys should be more self sufficient.
That analogy would be more akin to if your engineering boff decided to use emergency power to shields as opposed to the listed emergency power to engines, which in this game wouldn't actually be unheard of lol. Or your tactical officer to suddenly decide to become a science officer and have different skills...again it would not be surprising if it actually happened to you in game.
In an RTS you have factions that have strengths and weaknesses but a good RTS would be balanced in the units and there would always be a counter available to you and it's up to you to use it or not. It would still be balanced and you would be able to function in different roles it would just require more skill to overcome your disadvantage. Same with most good multiplayer games where there is player vs player.
This isn't really the case with STO but it comes back to what I keep saying.
We need the devs to tell us if they do intend us to play a role, similar to a trilogy type format, or intend all Captains and ships to perform in a similar way but do it in different ways.
Also, this isn't directed at you Ultimatum, can we stop considering people wanting to "Kirk" it bad in a Star Trek game. I mean it's like laughing at people wanting to be Adama in a battle star galactica game -.-
It is not selfish to want my teammates to be self sufficient. I often throw a heal to a teammate, take aggro off him, or use CC to help out. You misunderstand a desire for well rounded players instead of dedicated roles as being selfish. The entire arena match system of STO is uninteresting and lame to me. Elite Ground STFs are far more fun, even though they are easy. We constantly team up with PuGs and help them get the optionals. I enjoy using my skills to help support the team, my skills just do not fit into a predefined role.
I have flown with Captain Horizon in space PvP and had some fun (science in escort back then). They call targets and I either attack that target, or disrupt the opponents counterattack efforts.
Wanting them to be more self-sufficient simply because it's what you want is the very definition of selfishness. I don't see how you can't see that.
Quite frankly, you just sound like you're whining about the game not being what you want it to be instead of adapting to the way it is. That sounds like a self-problem not a game-problem.
Oh, and ask Horizon his opinion on teamplay, he's the one who taught me its value.
In an RTS you have factions that have strengths and weaknesses...
Different team compositions have strengths and weaknesses.
Different factions, at one point, actually did have strengths and weaknesses in this game.
In this game the different careers and ships, poorly balanced as they may be, have strengths and weaknesses and fill roles on a team.
My analogy stands because in an RTS different units are designed to fill different roles on the field, regardless of what each faction's slant towards combat might be - all units are designed to function as part of a larger coordinated whole.
We need the devs to tell us if they do intend us to play a role, similar to a trilogy type format, or intend all Captains and ships to perform in a similar way but do it in different ways.
It's pretty clear what the 3 careers and what most ships are best suited to be used for, and as Bran points out in the next post - is laid out by the devs.
Also, this isn't directed at you Ultimatum, can we stop considering people wanting to "Kirk" it bad in a Star Trek game.
The point about kirking it is that this is not a "single ship (player)" experience, in the way that star trek (the movies/shows) allows its captains to run around and get away unscathed when attempting to do everything themselves (most of the time).
There are single player experiences in this game that allow that, such as duels, and there are single player games out there that allow it as well.
Instead we continually see demand for the team based environment (Arena) to be degenerated to accommodate players who are anti-team because they think being anti-team means being "unique".
That analogy would be more akin to if your engineering boff decided to use emergency power to shields as opposed to the listed emergency power to engines, which in this game wouldn't actually be unheard of lol. Or your tactical officer to suddenly decide to become a science officer and have different skills...again it would not be surprising if it actually happened to you in game.
In an RTS you have factions that have strengths and weaknesses but a good RTS would be balanced in the units and there would always be a counter available to you and it's up to you to use it or not. It would still be balanced and you would be able to function in different roles it would just require more skill to overcome your disadvantage. Same with most good multiplayer games where there is player vs player.
This isn't really the case with STO but it comes back to what I keep saying.
We need the devs to tell us if they do intend us to play a role, similar to a trilogy type format, or intend all Captains and ships to perform in a similar way but do it in different ways.
Also, this isn't directed at you Ultimatum, can we stop considering people wanting to "Kirk" it bad in a Star Trek game. I mean it's like laughing at people wanting to be Adama in a battle star galactica game -.-
This is a direct quote from Cryptic:
"Tactical Officers - Focus primarily on combat efficiency. They have special abilities that help them fight effectively, both in a starship and on the ground.
Engineering Officers - Focus on improving the functionality of their ships and crew. They have special abilities that can quickly repair damaged shields and hulls, and improve the effectiveness of their starship's and bridge officers' weaponry.
Science Officers - Focus on Support. They can lend aid to allied ships and officers by healing them... or hindering the effectiveness of their enemies."
That sound like a fairly direct definition of roles, and it comes straight from the original Devs.
Kirking is fine in PvE, but it is fail in PvP and always will be.
Queues were pretty slow today after server came back on, they would be faster if there was a random queue, that is what is most important. You can debate all day whether people should learn teamwork or not or should be able to pvp without teamwork but it does nothing to solve the slow queue problem. Only by making the queue more friendly to people not queuing right now will move it faster.
Also, this isn't directed at you Ultimatum, can we stop considering people wanting to "Kirk" it bad in a Star Trek game. I mean it's like laughing at people wanting to be Adama in a battle star galactica game -.-
As somebody who did play a battestar galactica game, can confirm. There was no shortage of people who wanted to be huker or starbuck or apollo in a battlestar galactica game. We did laugh heartily at their antics and their tears did fuel our advanced war raptors though
I find these types of threads a bit redundant. The issues have not really changed for the past three years. Until Cryptic actually does anything meaningful with PvP, by either instituting separate queues, adding more meat to this desiccated corpse, finding out the right balance between classes and powers, and so on, it's just beating a dead horse here. As things stand, problems between pugs, premades, overpowered/underpowered abilities, power creep, doffs, and such will continue to be brought up.
Formerly known as Echo@Rivyn13
Member since early 2011
The problem with not using teamwork (or actively avoiding it), is that it is a self defeating mode. No team work would be fine... if no one used team work.
But that is not the case in PvP... hell even in pure pugs where no one is communicating... I tend to pick a tac, and target along with him/her. Debuffing his target , still healing the team (well... anyone in range)... etc.
This is where the rubber meets the road in PvP (put everything to the side for a second (cheese, powers, etc)... it isn't until you work out the team dynamics, learn your own teams strengths and weaknesses... learn to rely on eachother that you reach that next level of PvP.
Even with my suggestion to split the queues (Team/Solo), I realize that the Solo Queue would serve as a launching platform... a friendly environment to get into PvP... but the goal would be to either create a team... or find a team to join for the additional challenge of playing the Team Queue and or Private Matches
The problem with not using teamwork (or actively avoiding it), is that it is a self defeating mode. No team work would be fine... if no one used team work.
But that is not the case in PvP... hell even in pure pugs where no one is communicating... I tend to pick a tac, and target along with him/her. Debuffing his target , still healing the team (well... anyone in range)... etc.
This is where the rubber meets the road in PvP (put everything to the side for a second (cheese, powers, etc)... it isn't until you work out the team dynamics, learn your own teams strengths and weaknesses... learn to rely on eachother that you reach that next level of PvP.
Even with my suggestion to split the queues (Team/Solo), I realize that the Solo Queue would serve as a launching platform... a friendly environment to get into PvP... but the goal would be to either create a team... or find a team to join for the additional challenge of playing the Team Queue and or Private Matches
Well said.
I still believe though that a simple matchmaking protocol that pits gear and experience against gear and experience, would solve that w/o separating the queues.
Even with my suggestion to split the queues (Team/Solo), I realize that the Solo Queue would serve as a launching platform... a friendly environment to get into PvP... but the goal would be to either create a team... or find a team to join for the additional challenge of playing the Team Queue and or Private Matches
Would it?
I think your intentions are good, but you underestimate the number of players who really have zero interest in achieving higher team play.
That's always been the other half of the ROFLstomp coin.
Too many players feel like playing a specific role infringes on their individuality, they think playing for themselves is the same as "being unique".
Get several of those unique snowflakes on one side, and get a handful of players willing to coordinate and communicate on the other and things will be no different than they are now except that everyone will be subjected to being forced to play on the same side as players who are primarily out to suit themselves.
For me, the difference between my pug build and my premade build can be as simple a change as carrying my own TT or an RSP. Be prepared to fill your role on the battlefield and you'll have much greater chances of success, especially when the other players on your team are prepared as well. I have had this happen and I have beaten premades as a part of a PUG group. It is not impossible, but it is reliant on having a team that knows their roles.
Sometimes I wonder if some premade people know the difference between a pug build and a premade build. And why do I have to say this to premade people?? Aren't they supposed to understand sto???
Of course they do, it's not that big of a change.
A few BOFF choices, maybe a bit more resistance, etc.
Do you think none of our guys ever PUG it?
They do, they still play like team players.
They still call targets in chat, they still call out for SNB or TT, or whatever it might be.
One of their biggest complaints?
Being teamed with players who are just awful, have some oddball or sub-optimal build, healers who don't have ST at all, Escorts that don't pass TT around, ships without EPTS, players who don't distribute their shields.
I could bring any typical escort/cruiser/science boat in a pug match, but I will never know what my other teammates are bringing to the table.
That's due to exactly what I'm talking about, that people play "unique" builds instead of trying to fill a role.
Sure you may only have 1 healer, maybe you have none, but when one does show up wouldn't it be good if they actually had a concept of what a team build was in the first place?
So please, some people need to stop kidding themselves that pugs are inherently bad team players because they're losing to premades.
I'm not saying all PUGs, I'm saying people with attitudes like you see in this thread who outright refuse to play a "role" - even a broad one like "damage dealer" or "healer" or "heal/control".
They think it infringes on their individuality and uniqueness, which is just silly.
Lord, save us from the "rigid career path role" TRIBBLE. :rolleyes:
yeah and they want to force everyone to play to their style even when schedule doesn't permit it and they don't seem to care how dead the queues get as a result.
Its their own fault to, the premade style of play just drags matches on so long to the point of being boring 1 hour long matches and they are suprised people are tired of it.
I think your intentions are good, but you underestimate the number of players who really have zero interest in achieving higher team play.
That's always been the other half of the ROFLstomp coin.
Too many players feel like playing a specific role infringes on their individuality, they think playing for themselves is the same as "being unique".
Get several of those unique snowflakes on one side, and get a handful of players willing to coordinate and communicate on the other and things will be no different than they are now except that everyone will be subjected to being forced to play on the same side as players who are primarily out to suit themselves.
Well...
If they aren't interested in higher levels of team play... thats fine... its their game too. However, they will suffer from a lower historical average individual score. and you are right... there would be times that you would be forced to play in the solo queue with people far beneath your current skill level. As would the other team (since there would be a balance pass).
Currently, in a Pug group you have no control of the caliber of player you are team with, in that regards it is no different then how it exists today (Edit), with the possible exception that due to the balance pass... it is less likely to get saddled with multiple. So I am not sure how that is relevant to the overal point I was making about a solo queue.
The solo queue addresses two main concerns I have with entry into PvP (Pugstomping by the Elite Premades/Cheese Teams whatever, and Teams (as many have stated here on the forums) looking for a better fight (i.e. "We don't want to pugstomp, but when there is noone else to fight... what choice do we have")).
By allowing the pure random queue, these two issues can be alleviated to a great deal. True pug groups have a much better shot at a balanced match... you may win, and may lose... thats just how the cookie crumbles. Where as teams stand a better shot at fighting at least a group that formed as a team to enter into PvP (purposefully). Again, you stand a better shot at a decent match.
In regards to style/role... again, thats not really a choice that should be pushed onto anyone.
I play a Sci Healer, because I enjoy that role... but that doesn't mean that SciScort over there is wrong for playing a DPS Sci.
Is it optimal... probably not... will he/she do as much damage as a optimally configured Tac.. probably not... but its his ship to command. Personally, I am a purist who believes that the career/ship/role should all compliment eachother... but thats me...
I believe in teamwork, crosshealing, and communication... again... thats me... doesn't mean that Suzy Solitary is necessarily wrong... its how she choose to play.
The one thing is that at some point the Kirker's will hit a ceiling on how far they can advance in PvP... but thats not new news.
Thats the great thing about forming a team... you can decide who to invite to your team before you queue. You can set the guidelines yourself on what constitutes the makeup of your team.
I believe in team work as well, mostly because I've seen it succeed overwhelmingly in this game. BUT, not everyone has the luxury of organizing a team of friends when it is convenient for them to be online, and experience has also taught me that joining a pick-up team means learning to rely only on yourself for damage-dealing and heals.
Phrased differently, diluting the min-max formula with "jack of all trades" abilities is a necessity arising from those of us who don't have that crutch of an organized team to fall back on.
I believe in team work as well, mostly because I've seen it succeed overwhelmingly in this game. BUT, not everyone has the luxury of organizing a team of friends when it is convenient for them to be online, and experience has also taught me that joining a pick-up team means learning to rely only on yourself for damage-dealing and heals.
Phrased differently, diluting the min-max formula with "jack of all trades" abilities is a necessity arising from those of us who don't have that crutch of an organized team to fall back on.
This is not only a direct consequence of knowledge gap, but also perpetuates the same. If people were prepared to embrace the role of the captain and the ship they were flying, there would at least be some form of team work at play even among complete strangers in your team. But, as always, the average pugger fears death as well as has an epeen that makes him/her(*ironic, yeah*) want to kirk it. The end result are selfish builds that help even a slightly organized team roflstump their kirk-pugging opponents.
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What that all translates to is that you are not a team player and you are not interested in being a team player.
Fine, do as you like.
Just understand that playing a dedicated career/ship role is one of the very few simple things available to any player - premade, pugmade, pug or otherwise and does not cost EC, it does not cost dilithium and it is one of the most important things you can do in order to help your team.
Do you like team sports, of any kind?
Could you imagine if every player just went out onto the field or pitch for US Football, Soccer/Football, Basketball, Ice Hockey, etc., and just did whatever they wanted?
Who cares if its pros playing for money or a bunch of guys playing for kicks on the weekend?
The level of ability is irrelevant, what's relevant is that like those situations Arena PvP is 5v5 - that makes it a team game, and the 5 players that function as a team will win vs. the 5 players just doing whatever they want and ignoring their team mates.
So that's why it's called "kirking", we could call it the Rambo-mentality, or the "I wanna be the hero" complex.
It all boils down to the same thing, and that's an unwillingness to put your team's goals above your own desires.
The good premades are always trying new things, always tweaking builds and tweaking 5 man compositions.
What you believe to be unique, I believe is "anti-team".
I believe being a team player is more important than both winning and also more important than having a "me-first" attitude.
Perhaps its a matter of perspective, but I think after 3 years its pretty clear that teams that coordinate, and play for each-other generally defeat teams of "individuals" who are bent on being "unique" because of whatever subjective bias they've attached to such an attitude.
I'm sorry if it feels like I'm picking on you, you're certainly not alone in your thoughts.
There is a point though where continually reading threads full of people who refuse to be team players but also want the game to then cater to their style of play because they dislike losing to people functioning as a team that I just feel the need to call it out.
At the least I'll give you credit for being honest about it.
One thing that can doom a suggested change is to make it too complicated.
Some things people seem to agree on. While some have differing opinions on how to relieve the tension... at least its a discussion.
Some points;
Gear: While there is gear that I find questionable, I am not really in favor of gear restrictions imposed by Cryptic. As someone said Premade/Coordinated Cheese > Pug Cheese (this is most certainly the case). You also have private matches... and they should be able to set their own rules. I thing the cheese gear becomes less of an issue in the Solo Queue (since the chances of getting a full premade cheese team in a randomized/balanced solo queue is virtually non-existant). In the team queue (generally) you will find a higher caliber of groups playing (OPvP Pugmade, Fleet Teams, Premades) better able to combat the coordinated cheese.
Solo Queue: Should be join solo only... some balance pass (akin Himbert/Mancoms balancing tool) will mix the players in the queue up. Bette chance to be teamed with knowledgable players, and would "spread the cheese", or at least make it more difficult to get coordinated cheese attacks going.
Lobby System: One of my concerns about a lobby system, is it appears to me, I am not a member of a Premade, but I've heard enough stories to know that there are teams that actively avoid other premades. This would be a downside of a lobby system. If you get to pick the team you want to challenge/fight... then there is the chance that the same premades that actively look to avoid a fight against another premade would leave some premade teams just waiting in limbo... forever... Example... I form a team with some fleeties (we're not very good... yet)... I go to the lobby, and see teams waiting for a match from the well known pvp fleets... I would be hesitent to sign up for that match.
I am a strong believer in KISS. To me, the easiest solution generally ends up being the best, and achieves a large number of goals.
I - Seperate Queues... Join Solo or Join Team. If you join the team queue, your entire team is queued (solo players could still queue for the team side (to fill in that 4 man team).
II - Balance Pass (Solo queues). Looks at the individuals (again, Hilberts/Mancoms tool as its base). Nothing as deep as equipment or powers... just your historical performance)
III - Match Making (Team Queue). From the available teams in the queue each team is scored based on its members (pulled from the individuals stats... where possible the match is created based on those with the overall score... trying to match these scores as close as possible given the available teams in the queue. (I'd be willing to wait for this to happen if it would be faster to complete items I and II)
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
That's how it works in all MMORPGs, this isn't a multiplayer FPS. If that's the style you want to play in PvP and be successful, you chose the wrong game. You've crossed genre lines and landed in an RPG where the classes are designed to play off of each other not just alongside each other.
This, along with its counterpart 'haha my team roflstomped you pugs, you noob suck,' are probably the greatest cause of caustic verbal vomiting during/after any pvp match and likely what stops STOPvP community to grow healthily.
Just the other day in kvf, my klingon team lost 15-0 to a sci-heavy, spam and toy heavy fed team. At the end of the match, I put a "GG" in zone chat as always and one of my team shot out "what was gg about it?." So long as people don't realize that the "gg" at the end is being a good sportsman not to be taken literally, community development will remain stunted.
In fact, my approach these days is let people use whatever they want in pug matches. Sure I hate GPG, TIF, subspace rupture spammers with every fiber in my body and will try my best to make sure they are the ones to die first, but I would not act condescending towards them just because. Rules should belong in pre-arranged premade fights. As it is, pug pvp has the best chance to grow if it is a brutal streetfight. STO PvP community is small enough that we cannot afford to choose who gets and who does not get to pvp.
Elite Defense Stovokor
It is not selfish to want my teammates to be self sufficient. I often throw a heal to a teammate, take aggro off him, or use CC to help out. You misunderstand a desire for well rounded players instead of dedicated roles as being selfish. The entire arena match system of STO is uninteresting and lame to me. Elite Ground STFs are far more fun, even though they are easy. We constantly team up with PuGs and help them get the optionals. I enjoy using my skills to help support the team, my skills just do not fit into a predefined role.
I have flown with Captain Horizon in space PvP and had some fun (science in escort back then). They call targets and I either attack that target, or disrupt the opponents counterattack efforts.
I have to say I am not much of one most of the time either, only on the weekends or times when the fleet has more on when I am on. I play weird hours during the week though so want to queue up against a lot of other people that don't want to be team players either at those times and just want faster paced pug vs pug matches then.
I have played RPGs for longer than most on here have been alive, lol. PvP in RPGs is either artificially balanced, or it serves as nothing more than a bragging room for those who dedicate themselves to getting OP gear. I enjoy STO, but the PvP was incomplete to begin with and has just gotten worse over the years with lack of balance and power creep. Imagine if in Starcraft you were matched against opponents with more powerful units than you, you can't.
I have PvPed in games since Combat on Atari 2600, Pong before that actually. Starcraft, Total Annihilation, Street Fighter 2, Killer Instinct, Mario Cart, Donkey Kong Country, Podracing, Herzog Zwai, Civilization, Master of Orion, Star Wars Battlefront, NFL 2K, Project Gotham Racing, Battlefield 2142, Ghost Recon Online, to name a few highlights. So my tastes are quite varied.
imo ~80% do that ,10% play in team when they pug and 10% never pug because have a huge black ego and hate to lose
Being able to take care of yourself, and being a team player are not mutually exclusive.
Again, reference any team sport...ever.
You still need to know how to play, you still need a good build.
Imagine in starcraft (or any RTS, I don't play starcraft) your "ranged" units suddenly feel an individuality streak.
They don't want to be forced to play a ranged role, or be told what to do.
No, today, your ranged units have decided it is time to express their uniqueness and charge directly into melee range - they're not concerned that they are wholly unsuited to it, it's time to be free!!
Your best melee units are tired of all of the hard-combat, they've decide they'd much prefer to do resource gathering today - actually only some of them feel this way, some of them have decided to pick daisies, some want to use a heavy rocks to attempt something new and different as a ranged unit.
I mean why should those ranged units bother to provide fire support for the close-range units, those guys should be more self sufficient.
That analogy would be more akin to if your engineering boff decided to use emergency power to shields as opposed to the listed emergency power to engines, which in this game wouldn't actually be unheard of lol. Or your tactical officer to suddenly decide to become a science officer and have different skills...again it would not be surprising if it actually happened to you in game.
In an RTS you have factions that have strengths and weaknesses but a good RTS would be balanced in the units and there would always be a counter available to you and it's up to you to use it or not. It would still be balanced and you would be able to function in different roles it would just require more skill to overcome your disadvantage. Same with most good multiplayer games where there is player vs player.
This isn't really the case with STO but it comes back to what I keep saying.
We need the devs to tell us if they do intend us to play a role, similar to a trilogy type format, or intend all Captains and ships to perform in a similar way but do it in different ways.
Also, this isn't directed at you Ultimatum, can we stop considering people wanting to "Kirk" it bad in a Star Trek game. I mean it's like laughing at people wanting to be Adama in a battle star galactica game -.-
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Wanting them to be more self-sufficient simply because it's what you want is the very definition of selfishness. I don't see how you can't see that.
Quite frankly, you just sound like you're whining about the game not being what you want it to be instead of adapting to the way it is. That sounds like a self-problem not a game-problem.
Oh, and ask Horizon his opinion on teamplay, he's the one who taught me its value.
Different team compositions have strengths and weaknesses.
Different factions, at one point, actually did have strengths and weaknesses in this game.
In this game the different careers and ships, poorly balanced as they may be, have strengths and weaknesses and fill roles on a team.
My analogy stands because in an RTS different units are designed to fill different roles on the field, regardless of what each faction's slant towards combat might be - all units are designed to function as part of a larger coordinated whole.
The part in red is the important bit.
It's pretty clear what the 3 careers and what most ships are best suited to be used for, and as Bran points out in the next post - is laid out by the devs.
The point about kirking it is that this is not a "single ship (player)" experience, in the way that star trek (the movies/shows) allows its captains to run around and get away unscathed when attempting to do everything themselves (most of the time).
There are single player experiences in this game that allow that, such as duels, and there are single player games out there that allow it as well.
Instead we continually see demand for the team based environment (Arena) to be degenerated to accommodate players who are anti-team because they think being anti-team means being "unique".
This is a direct quote from Cryptic:
"Tactical Officers - Focus primarily on combat efficiency. They have special abilities that help them fight effectively, both in a starship and on the ground.
Engineering Officers - Focus on improving the functionality of their ships and crew. They have special abilities that can quickly repair damaged shields and hulls, and improve the effectiveness of their starship's and bridge officers' weaponry.
Science Officers - Focus on Support. They can lend aid to allied ships and officers by healing them... or hindering the effectiveness of their enemies."
That sound like a fairly direct definition of roles, and it comes straight from the original Devs.
Kirking is fine in PvE, but it is fail in PvP and always will be.
Quoted for truth.
It would be pretty enlightening for some players to get a good dose of Horizon's opinion on roles and team play.
As somebody who did play a battestar galactica game, can confirm. There was no shortage of people who wanted to be huker or starbuck or apollo in a battlestar galactica game. We did laugh heartily at their antics and their tears did fuel our advanced war raptors though
Elite Defense Stovokor
Member since early 2011
But that is not the case in PvP... hell even in pure pugs where no one is communicating... I tend to pick a tac, and target along with him/her. Debuffing his target , still healing the team (well... anyone in range)... etc.
This is where the rubber meets the road in PvP (put everything to the side for a second (cheese, powers, etc)... it isn't until you work out the team dynamics, learn your own teams strengths and weaknesses... learn to rely on eachother that you reach that next level of PvP.
Even with my suggestion to split the queues (Team/Solo), I realize that the Solo Queue would serve as a launching platform... a friendly environment to get into PvP... but the goal would be to either create a team... or find a team to join for the additional challenge of playing the Team Queue and or Private Matches
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Well said.
I still believe though that a simple matchmaking protocol that pits gear and experience against gear and experience, would solve that w/o separating the queues.
Would it?
I think your intentions are good, but you underestimate the number of players who really have zero interest in achieving higher team play.
That's always been the other half of the ROFLstomp coin.
Too many players feel like playing a specific role infringes on their individuality, they think playing for themselves is the same as "being unique".
Get several of those unique snowflakes on one side, and get a handful of players willing to coordinate and communicate on the other and things will be no different than they are now except that everyone will be subjected to being forced to play on the same side as players who are primarily out to suit themselves.
Of course they do, it's not that big of a change.
A few BOFF choices, maybe a bit more resistance, etc.
Do you think none of our guys ever PUG it?
They do, they still play like team players.
They still call targets in chat, they still call out for SNB or TT, or whatever it might be.
One of their biggest complaints?
Being teamed with players who are just awful, have some oddball or sub-optimal build, healers who don't have ST at all, Escorts that don't pass TT around, ships without EPTS, players who don't distribute their shields.
That's due to exactly what I'm talking about, that people play "unique" builds instead of trying to fill a role.
Sure you may only have 1 healer, maybe you have none, but when one does show up wouldn't it be good if they actually had a concept of what a team build was in the first place?
I'm not saying all PUGs, I'm saying people with attitudes like you see in this thread who outright refuse to play a "role" - even a broad one like "damage dealer" or "healer" or "heal/control".
They think it infringes on their individuality and uniqueness, which is just silly.
yeah and they want to force everyone to play to their style even when schedule doesn't permit it and they don't seem to care how dead the queues get as a result.
Its their own fault to, the premade style of play just drags matches on so long to the point of being boring 1 hour long matches and they are suprised people are tired of it.
Well...
If they aren't interested in higher levels of team play... thats fine... its their game too. However, they will suffer from a lower historical average individual score. and you are right... there would be times that you would be forced to play in the solo queue with people far beneath your current skill level. As would the other team (since there would be a balance pass).
Currently, in a Pug group you have no control of the caliber of player you are team with, in that regards it is no different then how it exists today (Edit), with the possible exception that due to the balance pass... it is less likely to get saddled with multiple. So I am not sure how that is relevant to the overal point I was making about a solo queue.
The solo queue addresses two main concerns I have with entry into PvP (Pugstomping by the Elite Premades/Cheese Teams whatever, and Teams (as many have stated here on the forums) looking for a better fight (i.e. "We don't want to pugstomp, but when there is noone else to fight... what choice do we have")).
By allowing the pure random queue, these two issues can be alleviated to a great deal. True pug groups have a much better shot at a balanced match... you may win, and may lose... thats just how the cookie crumbles. Where as teams stand a better shot at fighting at least a group that formed as a team to enter into PvP (purposefully). Again, you stand a better shot at a decent match.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
I play a Sci Healer, because I enjoy that role... but that doesn't mean that SciScort over there is wrong for playing a DPS Sci.
Is it optimal... probably not... will he/she do as much damage as a optimally configured Tac.. probably not... but its his ship to command. Personally, I am a purist who believes that the career/ship/role should all compliment eachother... but thats me...
I believe in teamwork, crosshealing, and communication... again... thats me... doesn't mean that Suzy Solitary is necessarily wrong... its how she choose to play.
The one thing is that at some point the Kirker's will hit a ceiling on how far they can advance in PvP... but thats not new news.
Thats the great thing about forming a team... you can decide who to invite to your team before you queue. You can set the guidelines yourself on what constitutes the makeup of your team.
If you want to pug it... you takes your chances.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Phrased differently, diluting the min-max formula with "jack of all trades" abilities is a necessity arising from those of us who don't have that crutch of an organized team to fall back on.
This is not only a direct consequence of knowledge gap, but also perpetuates the same. If people were prepared to embrace the role of the captain and the ship they were flying, there would at least be some form of team work at play even among complete strangers in your team. But, as always, the average pugger fears death as well as has an epeen that makes him/her(*ironic, yeah*) want to kirk it. The end result are selfish builds that help even a slightly organized team roflstump their kirk-pugging opponents.
Elite Defense Stovokor