You do know this is a very casual game for most people right? There is some logic in separating veterans and newbies, there is no point to those matches. Unfortunately, it might be beyond cryptic's capabilities to implement that kind of queue system, so not sure if there is any merit to the idea.
Your answer had nothing to do with my question. I asked why is it not a viable option to form your own team. Does your chat box not work? Is your native tongue Bengali and you can't communicate with others? Even when I was in a fleet that was 99% PvE and I was first learning how to PvP I would still team with the 1% of people that did PvP (a total of 2-3 people). When others owned my TRIBBLE I would ask how they did it and over 50% of the time they would tell me and add me to their friend's list. Sometimes I would ask if they minded if I added them to my friend's list. Nobody ever said no. Then when I wanted to PvP I would just message them and form up a team. I don't understand what this hindrance is that is preventing people from teaming up nowadays.
Cryptic has made this into essentially a casual, easygoing game. Play it when you want, how you want. Make some friends, join a fleet, do whatever, then come back when you want.
In short: It is a casual social game, just in a larger scale than say...Farmville.
So, I do agree with Skurf in this regard.
Yes, there are beginners and there are veterans, but that will ALWAYS hold true. Even if every 'premade' team left this game right now, eventually more WOULD rise. Maybe not soon, but eventually.
Even putting that aside and pretending no more premades would ever exist, would the queues really be all that better? People would still have no qualms about using whatever they wanted, there would still be individual players better than other players, teamwork or not, there would still be whining about 'X is OP, but my Y is fine, I don't want to have to adapt' situations, and so on.
Take out the premades and even all the 'big PvPers' that the game currently has, and some of the issues are still gonna be there. People would still gripe about being spammed with cheese all the time, about how 'PvPers get everything nerfed', and so on. Some things simply will never change, period.
So again, what's such a big issue about just teaming with friends? I've also never seen a playerbase against the idea of simple 'teamwork' sometimes.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
A pug only queue is simply unrealistic wish fulfilment from a vocal minority of loner care bears who don't ever want to play with friends and want to lower the rest of the community to their level. A better option would be a queue with limited teaming. I think being afraid to queue up without 3 scis and recluse and wells healers is carebareing
You develop no skills as an individual fighter and become afraid to ever take people on your own.
The majority of PvPers aren't in premades, but the majority of PvPers aren't habitual loners either. They're in the middle. They'd prefer not to have to fight a premade, but they also want to be able to team up with friends and play together sometimes.
I am in the middle, I will team on KDF side sometimes but my Fed is only used for pvp if I can't find anything on KDF so I won't join a fleet with my Fed and just pug it so want the option depending on the character I use. I think its fun to mix it up
Split queues could work if done right -- have one queue only allow teams up to three, while the other only accepts full teams of five. Give the premade queue increased rewards (or some other draw, like a tie in to the fleet system) to increase participation or it will not be able to sustain itself. Give the non-premade queue some sort of Hilbert-esque balancing formula to create more even matches.
if there are other options available and premade style pvp can't sustain itself then its premade style of pvp at fault. it takes way longer so some dont have time for it, and long matches just get boring. Premade style of pvp really limits options available too, you hardly see any variety in classes, ships, and builds and you see more in random pugs. I don't want to only fight wells and Recluses, I want to sometimes blow up Voyager, the Enterprise D, and other stuff seen in the shows. I would like to be able to use my eng for pvp sometimes, you can hardly ever get a team with one, but eng should not be banned from pvp
Even with great incentives you're still likely to have a lack of premades in some time zones. To counteract this you could still let teams greater than three enter the non-premade queue, but give them a significant handicap like 75% health and damage for each member in a four man team, all the way down to 50% health and damage for each member in a five man team.
With the right implementation, split queues could be great -- but if you were to split the queues today into only pug and only premade with no other changes it would be the immediate end of the PvP community.
All that needs to be done is first combine the queues into cross faction, then seperate teamed and non teamed versions of Arena, and have non teamed cap and hold only. Pvp population would skyrocket as people would realize its now all have a fair chance to win and not just the top fleets using the same boring ships and builds.
Ah yes, I keep forgetting people are not in my heads. I always assume they see where I'm always going with my arguments. Apologies lol :P.
My point was people don't always have time to form premades and practice due to the nature of this game. Not everyone has the luxury of playing hardcore or long enough to create lasting friendships. You might see fault in that, but I don't.
The problem I see here is not about pugs vs premade anyway. You can't stop pugs, pugs will keep popping in the queues. My real issue is the lack of balance of abilities and people made to go against veterans when they're just started exploring the pvp side of this game with no prior tutorials or some pvp experience. This is extremely problematic and I believe this is frustrating and polarizing the player base. People have difficulties to learn and to grow and this is conducive to a small pvp community. When I used to be able to log in the game, I'd see the same fleet tags, same names. This is terrible.
I don't know what needs to be done, leaderboards? Separate queues? Anything? But something does need to be done or pvp in this game will die (if it isn't already).
You need to do some deep soul searching because I don't think even you are clear on what the problem is and/or what you want. You just know that you keep getting pugstomped and you want it to stop.
Premade style of pvp really limits options available too, you hardly see any variety in classes, ships, and builds and you see more in random pugs. I don't want to only fight wells and Recluses, I want to sometimes blow up Voyager, the Enterprise D, and other stuff seen in the shows. I would like to be able to use my eng for pvp sometimes, you can hardly ever get a team with one, but eng should not be banned from pvp
This is neither a premade problem nor a pug problem. This is a balance problem. They made a slew of ships and an entire captain class useless. The design is flawed. Removing premades will not help you in the current meta to make the inferior ships popular. Similarly, there are plenty of engi captains, who are pretty tanky soloing it out there, but again, a tac captain will out-dps them every time. But they do have a slightly better role in CnH type scenarios currently.
Even with great incentives you're still likely to have a lack of premades in some time zones. To counteract this you could still let teams greater than three enter the non-premade queue, but give them a significant handicap like 75% health and damage for each member in a four man team, all the way down to 50% health and damage for each member in a five man team.
Penalty for playing as a team in a multiplayer game? What is this? Barbarian Online or Dark Age Online??
All that needs to be done is first combine the queues into cross faction, then seperate teamed and non teamed versions of Arena, and have non teamed cap and hold only. Pvp population would skyrocket as people would realize its now all have a fair chance to win and not just the top fleets using the same boring ships and builds.
This is highly debatable. Even in pugs, there will be super pugs and there will be noob pugs. In the end, noob pugs will end up hating super pugs, calling them elitists, and super pugs will look down upon noob pugs, trolling them as noobs. In the end, the ego problem just does not go away.
This is not true, unless you want the same character in the same ship to be-all, end-all. Different toons for different roles.
Even when not on my tac/escort when I am pugging as a healer you have to balance being a team healer with taking care of yourself to since teamwork is less reliable.
This is neither a premade problem nor a pug problem. This is a balance problem. They made a slew of ships and an entire captain class useless. The design is flawed. Removing premades will not help you in the current meta to make the inferior ships popular. Similarly, there are plenty of engi captains, who are pretty tanky soloing it out there, but again, a tac captain will out-dps them every time. But they do have a slightly better role in CnH type scenarios currently.
yet these ships and classes are still seen more in random pugs then in premade pvp, I don't mind having a few gimped ships/classes on my team as long as there is chance the other team gets them to, in the end we see more variety with random pugs.
Penalty for playing as a team in a multiplayer game? What is this? Barbarian Online or Dark Age Online??
You misquoted me on this one, Hurleybird said that.
But since you mentioned barbarians, yes I think something can be said for their tactics, German and Celt barbarians were always better individual fighters then Romans, but worse organized. Eventually it was enough to bring down the Roman empire. Once they started getting better heavy cavalry to break and disrupt roman formations the individual legionaires had no chance against Goth or Saxon warriors. This isn't all that relevant, but just saying there is merrit to being good individual fighters also. Historically teamwork hasn't always won.
This is highly debatable. Even in pugs, there will be super pugs and there will be noob pugs. In the end, noob pugs will end up hating super pugs, calling them elitists, and super pugs will look down upon noob pugs, trolling them as noobs. In the end, the ego problem just does not go away.
yes I am sure we have been on super pugs, especially KDF. With a cross faction random queue some of those people that got stomped by the super pug have a chance to be on one next time, or even better a little more balanced match. They end up having good matches every now and then instead of almost always being stomped.
There are any number of reasons why forming a team on the fly might not be viable for someone, none of which are subject to your approval.
Could be an unpopular time of day. (Move to a different time zone hurr hurr! :rolleyes: )
Could be a language barrier issue. (Lurn engrish hurr hurr. :rolleyes: )
Could be that someone just doesn't enjoy dinking around in chat begging strangers to team up with them, and/or they don't want their gameplay dependent on other people. <snide valley girl voice>Um, it's called an MMORPG for a reason and junk. Like, get over it, or whatever.</svgv> :rolleyes:
Assumes facts not in evidence. Your personal anecdotes do not constitute "most" or a "majority."
It's an observation based on PvPing since beta, and being in contact with a large cross section of players. Talking to people in PvP matches over the years, you come to realize that most have friends that they play with from time to time, even if they aren't members of what we'd call a premade. It's also common sense that in a massively multiplayer game, most players will make some friends and begin to play with them given sufficient time.
Also unsupported. I never suggested taking anything away from anyone. I'm simply pointing out the fact that there are inevitably many paying customers for whom "form your own team" is not a viable option.
If you don't support a pug only queue as you are saying now, then there was really no reason to respond to me at all, and I'm not telling pugs to suck it up and form their own teams -- that's something you are imagining.
There are any number of reasons why forming a team on the fly might not be viable for someone, none of which are subject to your approval.
Could be an unpopular time of day. (Move to a different time zone hurr hurr! :rolleyes: )
Could be a language barrier issue. (Lurn engrish hurr hurr. :rolleyes: )
Could be that someone just doesn't enjoy dinking around in chat begging strangers to team up with them, and/or they don't want their gameplay dependent on other people. <snide valley girl voice>Um, it's called an MMORPG for a reason and junk. Like, get over it, or whatever.</svgv> :rolleyes:
You seem to be posting in a popular time of the day.
Your English seems fine.
You seem comfortable enough chatting with strangers in this forum.
So what's your excuse (not some hypothetical introverted someone that speaks Bengali and plays in the middle of the night)? Let's speak in tangibles instead of hypotheticals.
Even when not on my tac/escort when I am pugging as a healer you have to balance being a team healer with taking care of yourself to since teamwork is less reliable.
This does not make you a better player. This makes you a player who loads up and/or uses more self heals than cross heals.
yet these ships and classes are still seen more in random pugs then in premade pvp, I don't mind having a few gimped ships/classes on my team as long as there is chance the other team gets them to, in the end we see more variety with random pugs.
There is fighting with knowledge, and there is fighting with ignorance. This statement seems to promote the latter.
yes I am sure we have been on super pugs, especially KDF. With a cross faction random queue some of those people that got stomped by the super pug have a chance to be on one next time, or even better a little more balanced match. They end up having good matches every now and then instead of almost always being stomped.
You seem to be basing your argument on the statement that new pvp initiates are being turned away from the game because of predation from premade teams. Once the super-pugs get to know each other, is there a guarantee that the trend would not sift towards predation of new faces? I have played other games, and this is most definitely a possibility. And why should it not be? If your team needs a win, killing the weakest link is definitely a valid tactics. In short, you cannot guarantee what you claim.
But since you mentioned barbarians, yes I think something can be said for their tactics, German and Celt barbarians were always better individual fighters then Romans, but worse organized. Eventually it was enough to bring down the Roman empire. Once they started getting better heavy cavalry to break and disrupt roman formations the individual legionaires had no chance against Goth or Saxon warriors. This isn't all that relevant, but just saying there is merrit to being good individual fighters also. Historically teamwork hasn't always won.
I got nothing here, boss. Just me and my stunned silence.
I don't care who I quoted. If you think playing with a team should not be the ideal play style in an MMORPG, you are playing the wrong game.
I think if you read my quote in context you'd find it less disagreeable. Just spit balling that if STO ever went to a split queue system that five man teams shouldn't be punished if no one else is on to play them, and therefore you might be able to let them in to the non-premade queue if they are willing to accept some sort of handicap. The idea comes from when us Pandas used to roll around in a tier 3 ship premade. We ended up having more interesting matches and getting good practice in as opposed to outright stomps.
Just to reiterate, I don't support giving teams a penalty with the current system -- the only way I would support such an idea is in the context of a system similar to the one detailed below:
The majority of PvPers aren't in premades, but the majority of PvPers aren't habitual loners either. They're in the middle. They'd prefer not to have to fight a premade, but they also want to be able to team up with friends and play together sometimes.
Split queues could work if done right -- have one queue only allow teams up to three, while the other only accepts full teams of five. Give the premade queue increased rewards (or some other draw, like a tie in to the fleet system) to increase participation or it will not be able to sustain itself. Give the non-premade queue some sort of Hilbert-esque balancing formula to create more even matches.
Even with great incentives you're still likely to have a lack of premades in some time zones. To counteract this you could still let teams greater than three enter the non-premade queue, but give them a significant handicap like 75% health and damage for each member in a four man team, all the way down to 50% health and damage for each member in a five man team.
You seem to be posting in a popular time of the day.
Yeah, during a brief down time at work.
Your English seems fine.
Kind of you to notice.
You seem comfortable enough chatting with strangers in this forum.
Idle conversation his hardly comparable to spamming zone chat with pleas for a team-up.
So what's your excuse (not some hypothetical introverted someone that speaks Bengali and plays in the middle of the night)? Let's speak in tangibles instead of hypotheticals.
I don't require an excuse. I do not pay for the privilege of contending with human stupidity. I just want to log on and play, without being at the mercy of anyone's "gracious" participation to do so.
5 master keys to the person who can find the team in that.
Also why is everyone talking about split queues? It was an idea someone came up with that is being run away with, you need ways to balance games when it's a random team up, like say if one side is up 5-0 it switches players.
Also it might help if it was just more fun in general and everyone actually got something from it. Way I see it is when it's an imbalanced match no-one has fun and short of that pitiful reward at the end of 3 matches there's nothing to be gained from it either.
Also there's not exactly any different styles other than TDM and Zergfest...I mean cap and hold.
Where's the FFA? Where's the indirect competition like in Kerrat but balanced? Where is any form of strategy or usage of the environment?
You could even have short mini PvP games like the GW2 tournament dailies, that would go down a storm!
Do premades love pugstomping? Lack of challenge? God mode?:D
Usual scenario for a premade:
Request match in opvp. No response. Do couple of queues. Get bored. Request match again in opvp. No response. Do 1 more match in public queues. Then loose interest.
Not sure where you're getting at. I've been stomped and I have done the stomping. Thanks for that deflection though.
Well, I was just making some observation based upon your comments. I apologize if it sounded like a deflection to you. Allow me to point out why it was not a deflection.
I don't know what needs to be done, leaderboards? Separate queues? Anything? But something does need to be done or pvp in this game will die (if it isn't already).
This is the point where you explicitly state you are yourself not sure with what the solution is. You claim pvp in this game will die. That is a grandoise claim which has absolutely no bearing. PvP is not dead already. You and I might quit PvP, but if nothing changes, PvP will still exist.
My point was people don't always have time to form premades and practice due to the nature of this game. Not everyone has the luxury of playing hardcore or long enough to create lasting friendships. You might see fault in that, but I don't.
The problem I see here is not about pugs vs premade anyway. You can't stop pugs, pugs will keep popping in the queues.
And neither should anybody attempt to stop premades.
It is no secret that STO PvP has a steep learning curve, and without help, new players have little chance of outgrowing their phase of being a 'casual' pvp, something that they do for the dailies. You mention this yourself -
My real issue is the lack of balance of abilities and people made to go against veterans when they're just started exploring the pvp side of this game with no prior tutorials or some pvp experience. This is extremely problematic and I believe this is frustrating and polarizing the player base. People have difficulties to learn and to grow and this is conducive to a small pvp community.
Which is a bonafide problem. But again, if we remember the context of this thread, it should be apparent that separating queues will not exactly help out new players to learn anything in pvp. Because you yourself mentioned -
And since you seem to be so adverse to the idea of forming a team, I am going to venture a wild guess that it was a pug vs pugstump.
And that is precisely the idea. Pugstumps will still happen, regardless of whether premades exists or not. Granted, pugstump might be a bit harder with premades, but then premades also give you an incentive, a goal to push for. At no point in history, did a mountaineer ever say, well I cannot climb anymore, so lets just call where I am standing, the summit. And yet, calling for a separate queues feels exactly like this idiotic idea.
For PvP community to grow, no doubt we need more of the base to be attracted to the idea of PvP. And no doubt, that PvP as it exists today, it might be frustrating to go into queues as a new player. But putting all the blame solely on the shoulders of premade is nothing but a witchhunt.
I see this whole affair largely as an ego problem. Individuals hate to lose. When they lose, their egos get hurt. They see premades as problems (Premades taunting pugs does not help). Yet, in pug vs pug, these same individuals will not hesitate to turn around and roflstomp noobs. To add insult to injury, some of these superpugs might even start to taunt the newbs in zone chat. Some of the new guys might themselves be seasoned PvE heroes. Since they lost so badly, they will see all of PvP mechanics as broken and problematic. Some of the new pugs might be entirely new to the game as well. And even these, some will console themselves saying they lost because they don't have the right equipment, etc and vow to come back later, which is a good attitude, and yet, others might be put off from the game entirely. These things happen. STO is not the only game that these things happen to.
And yet you will notice, which I think you already have, is that there is not a single point in the entire game, where any of the PvP mechanics is explained to the player. You are simply handed a ship, and an assignment, and you are tacitly encouraged to kirk it up. And you do. This is the single biggest problem in introducing players to PvP. In the past, there have been attempts at remedying this, in the form of bootcamp. I was myself a graduate of the 1st such bootcamp (still waiting on the ground version). Information dissemination is vital. If you are part of a fleet and you like to pvp, you should try to find out who else likes pvp, and see if there is something you can teach/something you can learn. Even when you pug up, you must run into some player that you think are awesome eventually, you could throw a friend request and have some candid discussion. However, in small number of cases where the player cannot, for whatever reasons, team up with anybody at all... well then I would say it is a bit unrealistic to not put in a 100%, but expect a 100% out of it, wouldn't you?
All said and done, the idea of separate queues is poorly thought out and it is worse than a bandaid solution. The problem lies elsewhere entirely.
There is no breathingroom for upcoming teams anymore. I know three guys (okay, not a full team, but at least something) that used to team up with team-orientated builds and went hitting the Qs. Though in the last year they were confronted with fully Lockboxed out teams with Bugships and Timeships and TIFs and tat. They dont Q anymore, because by all efforts they were rofl-stomped by certain longstanding teams that pretend to intercept some other certain guys over and over again for weeks/month. There is no place for you in PVP, when you are a casual players, even if they try to teamplay.
To my mind it is totally understandable thats unfun for people, so they quit and the Qs stay empty.
I pvp amongst my fleet all the time however I refuse to q as I always seem to get stuck against a premade and then my team is rofl stomped which is ZERO fun for me I think premades should NOT queue anymore and stick to private matches against other premades so that people who just wanna have fun pvping can without having to resort to private fleet only matches.
I pvp amongst my fleet all the time however I refuse to q as I always seem to get stuck against a premade and then my team is rofl stomped which is ZERO fun for me I think premades should NOT queue anymore and stick to private matches against other premades so that people who just wanna have fun pvping can without having to resort to private fleet only matches.
So, it's not fun for you? Well, your solution ruins the fun for others. How does that make you feel? The game is as it is. You can adapt to be successful, or you can continue to complain and blame others. The choice is yours.
Name one person who has fun from being curb stomped into the ground when having to fight a premade and I might conede your point. You get off from winning against people who can't hope to match your tactics due to just wanting to randomly play and that's bad. You should enjoy more evenly matched fights than a curb stomp.
Comments
Why not?
/10 char
@DevolvedOne
Your answer had nothing to do with my question. I asked why is it not a viable option to form your own team. Does your chat box not work? Is your native tongue Bengali and you can't communicate with others? Even when I was in a fleet that was 99% PvE and I was first learning how to PvP I would still team with the 1% of people that did PvP (a total of 2-3 people). When others owned my TRIBBLE I would ask how they did it and over 50% of the time they would tell me and add me to their friend's list. Sometimes I would ask if they minded if I added them to my friend's list. Nobody ever said no. Then when I wanted to PvP I would just message them and form up a team. I don't understand what this hindrance is that is preventing people from teaming up nowadays.
@DevolvedOne
Cryptic has made this into essentially a casual, easygoing game. Play it when you want, how you want. Make some friends, join a fleet, do whatever, then come back when you want.
In short: It is a casual social game, just in a larger scale than say...Farmville.
So, I do agree with Skurf in this regard.
Yes, there are beginners and there are veterans, but that will ALWAYS hold true. Even if every 'premade' team left this game right now, eventually more WOULD rise. Maybe not soon, but eventually.
Even putting that aside and pretending no more premades would ever exist, would the queues really be all that better? People would still have no qualms about using whatever they wanted, there would still be individual players better than other players, teamwork or not, there would still be whining about 'X is OP, but my Y is fine, I don't want to have to adapt' situations, and so on.
Take out the premades and even all the 'big PvPers' that the game currently has, and some of the issues are still gonna be there. People would still gripe about being spammed with cheese all the time, about how 'PvPers get everything nerfed', and so on. Some things simply will never change, period.
So again, what's such a big issue about just teaming with friends? I've also never seen a playerbase against the idea of simple 'teamwork' sometimes.
response in red
You need to do some deep soul searching because I don't think even you are clear on what the problem is and/or what you want. You just know that you keep getting pugstomped and you want it to stop.
Elite Defense Stovokor
This is not true, unless you want the same character in the same ship to be-all, end-all. Different toons for different roles.
This is neither a premade problem nor a pug problem. This is a balance problem. They made a slew of ships and an entire captain class useless. The design is flawed. Removing premades will not help you in the current meta to make the inferior ships popular. Similarly, there are plenty of engi captains, who are pretty tanky soloing it out there, but again, a tac captain will out-dps them every time. But they do have a slightly better role in CnH type scenarios currently.
Penalty for playing as a team in a multiplayer game? What is this? Barbarian Online or Dark Age Online??
This is highly debatable. Even in pugs, there will be super pugs and there will be noob pugs. In the end, noob pugs will end up hating super pugs, calling them elitists, and super pugs will look down upon noob pugs, trolling them as noobs. In the end, the ego problem just does not go away.
Elite Defense Stovokor
10 characters.
There are any number of reasons why forming a team on the fly might not be viable for someone, none of which are subject to your approval.
Could be an unpopular time of day. (Move to a different time zone hurr hurr! :rolleyes: )
Could be a language barrier issue. (Lurn engrish hurr hurr. :rolleyes: )
Could be that someone just doesn't enjoy dinking around in chat begging strangers to team up with them, and/or they don't want their gameplay dependent on other people. <snide valley girl voice>Um, it's called an MMORPG for a reason and junk. Like, get over it, or whatever.</svgv> :rolleyes:
It's an observation based on PvPing since beta, and being in contact with a large cross section of players. Talking to people in PvP matches over the years, you come to realize that most have friends that they play with from time to time, even if they aren't members of what we'd call a premade. It's also common sense that in a massively multiplayer game, most players will make some friends and begin to play with them given sufficient time.
If you don't support a pug only queue as you are saying now, then there was really no reason to respond to me at all, and I'm not telling pugs to suck it up and form their own teams -- that's something you are imagining.
Your English seems fine.
You seem comfortable enough chatting with strangers in this forum.
So what's your excuse (not some hypothetical introverted someone that speaks Bengali and plays in the middle of the night)? Let's speak in tangibles instead of hypotheticals.
@DevolvedOne
This does not make you a better player. This makes you a player who loads up and/or uses more self heals than cross heals.
There is fighting with knowledge, and there is fighting with ignorance. This statement seems to promote the latter.
I don't care who I quoted. If you think playing with a team should not be the ideal play style in an MMORPG, you are playing the wrong game.
You seem to be basing your argument on the statement that new pvp initiates are being turned away from the game because of predation from premade teams. Once the super-pugs get to know each other, is there a guarantee that the trend would not sift towards predation of new faces? I have played other games, and this is most definitely a possibility. And why should it not be? If your team needs a win, killing the weakest link is definitely a valid tactics. In short, you cannot guarantee what you claim.
I got nothing here, boss. Just me and my stunned silence.
Elite Defense Stovokor
I think if you read my quote in context you'd find it less disagreeable. Just spit balling that if STO ever went to a split queue system that five man teams shouldn't be punished if no one else is on to play them, and therefore you might be able to let them in to the non-premade queue if they are willing to accept some sort of handicap. The idea comes from when us Pandas used to roll around in a tier 3 ship premade. We ended up having more interesting matches and getting good practice in as opposed to outright stomps.
Just to reiterate, I don't support giving teams a penalty with the current system -- the only way I would support such an idea is in the context of a system similar to the one detailed below:
@DevolvedOne
Right there with ya
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Yeah, during a brief down time at work.
Kind of you to notice.
Idle conversation his hardly comparable to spamming zone chat with pleas for a team-up.
I don't require an excuse. I do not pay for the privilege of contending with human stupidity. I just want to log on and play, without being at the mercy of anyone's "gracious" participation to do so.
5 master keys to the person who can find the team in that.
Also why is everyone talking about split queues? It was an idea someone came up with that is being run away with, you need ways to balance games when it's a random team up, like say if one side is up 5-0 it switches players.
Also it might help if it was just more fun in general and everyone actually got something from it. Way I see it is when it's an imbalanced match no-one has fun and short of that pitiful reward at the end of 3 matches there's nothing to be gained from it either.
Also there's not exactly any different styles other than TDM and Zergfest...I mean cap and hold.
Where's the FFA? Where's the indirect competition like in Kerrat but balanced? Where is any form of strategy or usage of the environment?
You could even have short mini PvP games like the GW2 tournament dailies, that would go down a storm!
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Just like there's some PvPers that think PvE players are a bunch of morons who run CRF on a beam boat.
Just as there's PvEers that go around saying all PvPers are a bunch of whiney elitist pigs who cause every nerf.
Just as some people think A2B is h4x0rZ and some people think nothing should ever come close to the dps as escorts.
*chomp, chomp, chomp*
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Usual scenario for a premade:
Request match in opvp. No response. Do couple of queues. Get bored. Request match again in opvp. No response. Do 1 more match in public queues. Then loose interest.
Do rep on toons.
Repeat first process.
Well, I was just making some observation based upon your comments. I apologize if it sounded like a deflection to you. Allow me to point out why it was not a deflection.
This is the point where you explicitly state you are yourself not sure with what the solution is. You claim pvp in this game will die. That is a grandoise claim which has absolutely no bearing. PvP is not dead already. You and I might quit PvP, but if nothing changes, PvP will still exist.
And the statements you made -
Seem to imply that you are strongly for the idea of separate queues.
Even though you also claim,
And neither should anybody attempt to stop premades.
It is no secret that STO PvP has a steep learning curve, and without help, new players have little chance of outgrowing their phase of being a 'casual' pvp, something that they do for the dailies. You mention this yourself -
Which is a bonafide problem. But again, if we remember the context of this thread, it should be apparent that separating queues will not exactly help out new players to learn anything in pvp. Because you yourself mentioned -
And since you seem to be so adverse to the idea of forming a team, I am going to venture a wild guess that it was a pug vs pugstump.
And that is precisely the idea. Pugstumps will still happen, regardless of whether premades exists or not. Granted, pugstump might be a bit harder with premades, but then premades also give you an incentive, a goal to push for. At no point in history, did a mountaineer ever say, well I cannot climb anymore, so lets just call where I am standing, the summit. And yet, calling for a separate queues feels exactly like this idiotic idea.
For PvP community to grow, no doubt we need more of the base to be attracted to the idea of PvP. And no doubt, that PvP as it exists today, it might be frustrating to go into queues as a new player. But putting all the blame solely on the shoulders of premade is nothing but a witchhunt.
I see this whole affair largely as an ego problem. Individuals hate to lose. When they lose, their egos get hurt. They see premades as problems (Premades taunting pugs does not help). Yet, in pug vs pug, these same individuals will not hesitate to turn around and roflstomp noobs. To add insult to injury, some of these superpugs might even start to taunt the newbs in zone chat. Some of the new guys might themselves be seasoned PvE heroes. Since they lost so badly, they will see all of PvP mechanics as broken and problematic. Some of the new pugs might be entirely new to the game as well. And even these, some will console themselves saying they lost because they don't have the right equipment, etc and vow to come back later, which is a good attitude, and yet, others might be put off from the game entirely. These things happen. STO is not the only game that these things happen to.
And yet you will notice, which I think you already have, is that there is not a single point in the entire game, where any of the PvP mechanics is explained to the player. You are simply handed a ship, and an assignment, and you are tacitly encouraged to kirk it up. And you do. This is the single biggest problem in introducing players to PvP. In the past, there have been attempts at remedying this, in the form of bootcamp. I was myself a graduate of the 1st such bootcamp (still waiting on the ground version). Information dissemination is vital. If you are part of a fleet and you like to pvp, you should try to find out who else likes pvp, and see if there is something you can teach/something you can learn. Even when you pug up, you must run into some player that you think are awesome eventually, you could throw a friend request and have some candid discussion. However, in small number of cases where the player cannot, for whatever reasons, team up with anybody at all... well then I would say it is a bit unrealistic to not put in a 100%, but expect a 100% out of it, wouldn't you?
All said and done, the idea of separate queues is poorly thought out and it is worse than a bandaid solution. The problem lies elsewhere entirely.
/channel_join OrganizedPvP
Other options :
PvP friends
Fleetmates
Elite Defense Stovokor
There is no breathingroom for upcoming teams anymore. I know three guys (okay, not a full team, but at least something) that used to team up with team-orientated builds and went hitting the Qs. Though in the last year they were confronted with fully Lockboxed out teams with Bugships and Timeships and TIFs and tat. They dont Q anymore, because by all efforts they were rofl-stomped by certain longstanding teams that pretend to intercept some other certain guys over and over again for weeks/month. There is no place for you in PVP, when you are a casual players, even if they try to teamplay.
To my mind it is totally understandable thats unfun for people, so they quit and the Qs stay empty.
So, it's not fun for you? Well, your solution ruins the fun for others. How does that make you feel? The game is as it is. You can adapt to be successful, or you can continue to complain and blame others. The choice is yours.