This is not only a direct consequence of knowledge gap, but also perpetuates the same. If people were prepared to embrace the role of the captain and the ship they were flying, there would at least be some form of team work at play even among complete strangers in your team. But, as always, the average pugger fears death as well as has an epeen that makes him/her(*ironic, yeah*) want to kirk it. The end result are selfish builds that help even a slightly organized team roflstump their kirk-pugging opponents.
My "role" is what I decide it is, sparky, and if I choose to play in a way that doesn't suit your rigid parameters, it's not because I'm ignorant of the game mechanics, but because I will not be constrained by your values and priorites. I get tired of polling PUG teams to figure out who will draw aggro, who will heal, who will subnuke/gravity well/warp plasma/etc just to have smug ****bags whining and talking trash in team chat.
This is not only a direct consequence of knowledge gap, but also perpetuates the same. If people were prepared to embrace the role of the captain and the ship they were flying, there would at least be some form of team work at play even among complete strangers in your team. But, as always, the average pugger fears death as well as has an epeen that makes him/her(*ironic, yeah*) want to kirk it. The end result are selfish builds that help even a slightly organized team roflstump their kirk-pugging opponents.
I'll remember that next time you need a heal :P
Also get in game so we can play...er..with....I'm not gonna finish that =S
My "role" is what I decide it is, sparky, and if I choose to play in a way that doesn't suit your rigid parameters, it's not because I'm ignorant of the game mechanics, but because I will not be constrained by your values and priorites. I get tired of polling PUG teams to figure out who will draw aggro, who will heal, who will subnuke/gravity well/warp plasma/etc just to have smug ****bags whining and talking trash in team chat.
No, you misunderstand. I am not saying you are not entitled to play the style you want to. I'm just saying maybe it might not be prudent to ask afterwards why you lost. :rolleyes:
No, you misunderstand. I am not saying you are not entitled to play the style you want to. I'm just saying maybe it might not be prudent to ask afterwards why you lost. :rolleyes:
And had you ever caught me doing so, you might have a point, but it's usually not hard to figure out why your team lost, and it's not because someone had the staggering audacity to defy the role your royal highness would assign them, but because the team as a whole lacked coordination. If you're coordinated well, you could prevail in a pugmatch with a team full of SciScorts with mk x white gear. But even when someone steps up to call targets for a pug team, there's no guarantee they aren't some inept ***clown with no clue what they're doing. Best bet is to hope for a team of strangers who are all good at being self-reliant, and offer enough initiative to watch for what everyone else is shooting at and concentrate fire.
And had you ever caught me doing so, you might have a point, but it's usually not hard to figure out why your team lost, and it's not because someone had the staggering audacity to defy the role your royal highness would assign them, but because the team as a whole lacked coordination. If you're coordinated well, you could prevail in a pugmatch with a team full of SciScorts with mk x white gear. But even when someone steps up to call targets for a pug team, there's no guarantee they aren't some inept ***clown with no clue what they're doing. Best bet is to hope for a team of strangers who are all good at being self-reliant, and offer enough initiative to watch for what everyone else is shooting at and concentrate fire.
Yes, there always will be a few clueless novices out there who have absolutely no idea what they are doing. But I'm talking about broadening the PvP player pool as a whole. If everybody strives to be better, the community as a whole will benefit. And there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if knowledgeable members of the community embraced their roles even when pugging, everybody's pvp experience will be that much better. Will you still get your TRIBBLE handed by premades? Absolutely!! But at least you won't go down without a fight. There is definitely a ladder or a food chain in play here, and pre-mades are at the top of it. And you would only be kidding yourself to think you should be able to take on one while pugging. But everybody fight better = maybe you know who you want to team up with next. Maybe pretty soon, you will come up with your own premade.
On the other hand, if everybody only kirks it, nobody will gain any insight on how to play better. So end result, you will think it's the game to blame, cryptic to blame, premades to blame, pvp sucks, blah, blah.
My "role" is what I decide it is, sparky, and if I choose to play in a way that doesn't suit your rigid parameters, it's not because I'm ignorant of the game mechanics, but because I will not be constrained by your values and priorites. I get tired of polling PUG teams to figure out who will draw aggro, who will heal, who will subnuke/gravity well/warp plasma/etc just to have smug ****bags whining and talking trash in team chat.
You're just looking for a reason to be offended, aren't you?
I believe in team work as well, mostly because I've seen it succeed overwhelmingly in this game. BUT, not everyone has the luxury of organizing a team of friends when it is convenient for them to be online, and experience has also taught me that joining a pick-up team means learning to rely only on yourself for damage-dealing and heals.
Phrased differently, diluting the min-max formula with "jack of all trades" abilities is a necessity arising from those of us who don't have that crutch of an organized team to fall back on.
Apparently it doesn't matter if your friends are not online you are just supposed to queue up anyway and let the premades slaughter you. :rolleyes:
Pugs = usually a lack of coordination.
Pugs = usually a lack of synergy.
Pugs = Kirking much?
Premades = umm, uhh, can't think of a Con other than; "Say Cheese".
In general = an ever decreasing amount of PvP enthusiasts.
Other problems...
Gear differences between "Veterans" or "Old Timers" or "Moneybags" vs. others...
To be decently viable in a PvP match requires a lot of grinding, a lot of it, and then some.
Oh, one unquantifiable quotient is luck! heh
Then the Skills or L2P... well...
The game is not really set up for learning team work, nor for learning any of a few
vital game mechanics that should be learned before Max Level. Barring certain
individuals and what not, it can be difficult for someone to learn more about the
intricacies of the PvP scene.
Also, leveling is just way too fast!
Here follows is a common problem that occurs;
Player reaches 50! alright! yay! even gets some halfway decent gear, etc.
Decides to go into PVP since it has been "fun" in other games.
(little do they know that they just stepped into the twilight zone...)
Anyway, random pug queue... gets into match... gets roflmaostomped...
OMG!!!, dead, dead, dead, over and over... Did I do anything at all!?
Well, this royally sucks (insert adjective here)...
I know, lets ask around for help, zone? local? tells? (some might try forum)
to which more times than not its ignored, or gets replies like LOL, :P, or L2P, or worse.
Granted, some actually do answer with advice, which unfortunately is the exception.
With so many things stacked against a new PvPer, it usually ends up that player
no longer queues up for anything PvP related ever again.
I fell into this myself... even though I haven't actually tried to PvP in a very long time,
I still tried to improve and learn. Even went into private matches with fleeties.
(When that old fleet still had people actively in it anyway)
Luckily, I have learned a bit, maybe even quite a bit since then.
(On that note, I'll have to try and remember to look for a new fleet, maybe a PvP fleet)
I'll admit that the synergy of team work is...
...difficult to learn with out constructive activities.
Anyways, before I keep going off tangent or rambling...
The whole experience left a sour taste that is hard to overcome.
Even got a few friends to try it out! well, that only lasted a few matches...
I'm not sure how many Pugs I tried, though it was more than 20...
Once, I got into a Pug vs Pug! OK, that one was pretty decent. Fun even.
The majority if not most of the other matches were against Premades.
It could have been some bad luck involved on match making, though, maybe not.
Some of them might have been teams of 2 or 3, though those teams had the
advantage of communication, thus coordination. I did end up once in a match where
I was paired with a 3 person team that was all from the same fleet.
ok, so, overall... situations can be rather bad indeed.
Now, I do like the idea of having solo pugging, and a Premade Lobby.
However, that would not be exactly fair for teams of say 2 or 3 people.
A team of 4 I imagine could get just that 1 more member.
A Leader Board could be possible for the Premade Lobby,
(assuming you could have set teams under a team or squad name, or something)
though a Leader Board for solo pugging would be a bad, and abused thing.
oh, almost forgot... If there was a seperate vessel and seperate gear for PvP,
I'm afraid that would just end up being yet another thing to grind for.
All of the above is IMHO and thank you for reading if you got through the wall.
The game is not really set up for learning team work, nor for learning any of a few
vital game mechanics that should be learned before Max Level.
This is one of the biggest drawbacks of this game. By being set as it is, the game tacitly approves peoples' need/desire to fill in captain kirk's shoes. Come to think of it, the design might not even be unintentional.
Wanting them to be more self-sufficient simply because it's what you want is the very definition of selfishness. I don't see how you can't see that.
Quite frankly, you just sound like you're whining about the game not being what you want it to be instead of adapting to the way it is. That sounds like a self-problem not a game-problem.
Oh, and ask Horizon his opinion on teamplay, he's the one who taught me its value.
I am finished with this thread, enjoy the loneliness trying to get everyone else to be just like you. I am not the one whining the game isn't what I want it to be. The game is a single player MMO with a smidgen of basic PvP thrown in. You are the one whining that everyone else won't adopt your idea of how teams should coordinate and play PvP.
The fact that Horizon taught you so much, yet did not need to teach me anything about team play might suggest that you are too busy criticizing and not busy enough listening.
I team up all the time with like minded players. We are all self sufficient and put together on a team we do not lose 0-15. We do not use macros or OP consoles, just sound tactics. When I played team sports players were on offense and defense and played more than one position. Today they specialize too much and the games are of much lower quality because of it. Players like Michael Jordan excelled because they redefined what a player could do, not because they squeezed into the limited role others imagined for them.
Q: Can I play something other than a Captain like a Doctor or an Engineer?
A: Everyone is a Captain, (remember, if you command a ship, you are automatically a Captain), and you will command a crew, but that does not limit your role. Your character will still be able to choose from a variety of career paths, such as Engineer, Tactical Officer, Doctor, Science Officer, etc. Your career path is your root, and will affect your skills, and how you command your crew. Consider Jean-Luc Picard, Beverly Crusher, Worf and Kathryn Janeway. Picard was an archeologist and diplomat, Crusher was a doctor, Worf a security/tactical officer, and Janeway was a scientist. Each eventually chose a career in command and became ship captains. This does not mean the game will limit your ship choices based on your profession ? far from it. The examples are simply an example of how the game design was inspired.
Jordan also had a supporting team to be where he was. Without his team mates he would have never shined and "redefined" anything. Could a whole team of self sufficient Jordans take on a fully seasoned team? I don't believe it could be possible.
Sadly, this game doesn't lend itself to redefining roles, its about being the first to discover a changed mechanic and using it to your advantage, be it in a team or solo. So your argument about redefining roles is a bit weak.
All the above being said, i personally think it would be an awesome idea to have 2 different types of queues - the same way you have normal and Elite STF's. "Elite" pew pew queues for seasoned pew pewers and "Normal" for solo and newcomers.
To supplement this, the "No Win" scenario should be re written. In it's current form, its a "Win Win" scenario.
Instead, to aid the migration from PVE to PvP, the "No Win" Scenario should become a 5 man AI team that behaves as a premade does. Lets face it, there are set routines in any premade teams. I'm sure this human behavior could be coded.
Each wave you beat as a human team, the AI gets harder in way of doing what a what a PvP premade would do more effectively each wave and towards the latter end, "cheat" in way of more advanced cool downs compared to the human players forcing you to react and think quicker.
If you really want to dream, the Elite queue should offer large dilithium & EC rewards (think, in the millions) based on a hilbert style score applied to the entire team.
Think 5 to 20 mill per team member for a win.
The "normal" queue would not, to give the people there something to aspire to. However, they do get PvP centric loading screens with tips such as:
I'm F2P I've tried few (3 - daily) time to play some PvP despite my lack of PvP knowledge and bad build. First time we managed to win, 2nd time were overwhelmed and 3rd time was... so-so, with loss.
As I often play team-oriented games (played pug PvP in GW2 a little with some success, playing LoL and DotA2 etc.) I have general knowledge in how to utilize the abilities to get as much as possible from them. Also, through those games, I developed my teamwork ability, so I'm carefully selecting my targets, pass TT, ST and HE to whoever needs it (giving them priority if I notice that they have better DPS), debuff vital targets etc. However, I quite often don't have any idea what to do, and observing my teammates doesn't help me. Not to mention that we don't exchange even one word.
First time I entered PvP, I was literally blasted from the space in 3 seconds. I didn't really have any idea what just happened, nor how to anticipate that. After battle, I asked opponents how did they have insane damage, and one Klingon player explained the basics to me. I also looked at these forums and gained some knowledge.
However, there isn't any decent PvP tutorial - all "tutorial" missions are basically just "here's the arena, now go in and shoot everything that isn't on your side". So, unless player takes the initiative (by looking at STO sites and asking other players), there's basically nothing to teach him the basics.
Sorry for a mess of the post, I'm quite bad with structuring my thoughts
I'm F2P I've tried few (3 - daily) time to play some PvP despite my lack of PvP knowledge and bad build. First time we managed to win, 2nd time were overwhelmed and 3rd time was... so-so, with loss.
As I often play team-oriented games (played pug PvP in GW2 a little with some success, playing LoL and DotA2 etc.) I have general knowledge in how to utilize the abilities to get as much as possible from them. Also, through those games, I developed my teamwork ability, so I'm carefully selecting my targets, pass TT, ST and HE to whoever needs it (giving them priority if I notice that they have better DPS), debuff vital targets etc. However, I quite often don't have any idea what to do, and observing my teammates doesn't help me. Not to mention that we don't exchange even one word.
First time I entered PvP, I was literally blasted from the space in 3 seconds. I didn't really have any idea what just happened, nor how to anticipate that. After battle, I asked opponents how did they have insane damage, and one Klingon player explained the basics to me. I also looked at these forums and gained some knowledge.
However, there isn't any decent PvP tutorial - all "tutorial" missions are basically just "here's the arena, now go in and shoot everything that isn't on your side". So, unless player takes the initiative (by looking at STO sites and asking other players), there's basically nothing to teach him the basics.
Sorry for a mess of the post, I'm quite bad with structuring my thoughts
Your post was fine, and you are off to a good start.
You're definitely right in that this game does not prepare the player at all for PvP, and it just dumps you in at the deep end.
I suggest you join the Tyler Durden channel (it's not private, anyone can join).
The channel is often quiet, but you can find good matches there that try to be balanced.
Teamspeak is usually provided, and you will meet a lot of veterans who are willing to give build & pvp advice.
I'm F2P I've tried few (3 - daily) time to play some PvP despite my lack of PvP knowledge and bad build. First time we managed to win, 2nd time were overwhelmed and 3rd time was... so-so, with loss.
As I often play team-oriented games (played pug PvP in GW2 a little with some success, playing LoL and DotA2 etc.) I have general knowledge in how to utilize the abilities to get as much as possible from them. Also, through those games, I developed my teamwork ability, so I'm carefully selecting my targets, pass TT, ST and HE to whoever needs it (giving them priority if I notice that they have better DPS), debuff vital targets etc. However, I quite often don't have any idea what to do, and observing my teammates doesn't help me. Not to mention that we don't exchange even one word.
First time I entered PvP, I was literally blasted from the space in 3 seconds. I didn't really have any idea what just happened, nor how to anticipate that. After battle, I asked opponents how did they have insane damage, and one Klingon player explained the basics to me. I also looked at these forums and gained some knowledge.
However, there isn't any decent PvP tutorial - all "tutorial" missions are basically just "here's the arena, now go in and shoot everything that isn't on your side". So, unless player takes the initiative (by looking at STO sites and asking other players), there's basically nothing to teach him the basics.
Sorry for a mess of the post, I'm quite bad with structuring my thoughts
Abandon hope all ye who enter.
RUN, NEVER LOOK BACK AND RUN!!
Ok joking aside, ask in TD as above but also if you're feeling brave have a wander over to kerrat, you can learn a lot of basics there, some people are douchebags but just don't respond and move on to them.
It won't help you quite as much with the teamwork but it will certainly help you get some experience under your belt, see what helps and doesn't help. You can also see what other people are using and if you see someone owning 5 people you can see what they're using.
Watch the icons underneath the enemy and be aware of your surroundings, headphones help for hearing a cloaked attacker but having a decent volume on speakers and listening for a buff up sound helps. Pay attention to captain classes and how they wield their specific abilities in order to gain the upper hand, example being using a sub nucleonics beam just as the enemy starts using their plan B escape method to effectively stop it and deal the killing blow.
If you're lucky you might be able to team with people there but if you have some friends go there together, team up, communicate and see how you can utilise abilities that can be passed between the team to increase survivability and to overcome debuffs etc.
Finally do not be afraid to make a post here or in the mechanics area if there's something you need to know, just don't get put off by the walls of maths that can suddenly appear.
I think the core issue is there is a vast experience gap between new players, and premade. Nothing wrong with a premade mind you.
But, taking random players who are inexperienced and throwing them in with a premade team is a recipe for disaster. This is the main reason I advocate for a Solo queue (completely randomized teams with a balance pass (Mancoms algorithms for example... where matches are completely random team, and there is an attempt to balance them). And a Team Queue, where premades/pugmades/fleetmades can queue with their buds...
+1 to all of these
* Add Solo queue where teams are completely random, add balancing to this later
* Add Team queue for premades to fight other premades
In addition...
* Remove FvF and FvK queues, throw everyone into the same groups despite faction.
* Replace FvF with Solo queue
* Replace FvK with Team queue
And you're done. PVP will now have more people playing each other. More people will play KDF. And more people will experiment with PVP since they can no longer get pugstomped by premades. Win. Win. Win.
* Add Solo queue where teams are completely random, add balancing to this later
* Add Team queue for premades to fight other premades
In addition...
* Remove FvF and FvK queues, throw everyone into the same groups despite faction.
* Replace FvF with Solo queue
* Replace FvK with Team queue
And you're done. PVP will now have more people playing each other. More people will play KDF. And more people will experiment with PVP since they can no longer get pugstomped by premades. Win. Win. Win.
Jordan also had a supporting team to be where he was. Without his team mates he would have never shined and "redefined" anything. Could a whole team of self sufficient Jordans take on a fully seasoned team? I don't believe it could be possible.
Sadly, this game doesn't lend itself to redefining roles, its about being the first to discover a changed mechanic and using it to your advantage, be it in a team or solo. So your argument about redefining roles is a bit weak.
All the above being said, i personally think it would be an awesome idea to have 2 different types of queues - the same way you have normal and Elite STF's. "Elite" pew pew queues for seasoned pew pewers and "Normal" for solo and newcomers.
To supplement this, the "No Win" scenario should be re written. In it's current form, its a "Win Win" scenario.
Instead, to aid the migration from PVE to PvP, the "No Win" Scenario should become a 5 man AI team that behaves as a premade does. Lets face it, there are set routines in any premade teams. I'm sure this human behavior could be coded.
Each wave you beat as a human team, the AI gets harder in way of doing what a what a PvP premade would do more effectively each wave and towards the latter end, "cheat" in way of more advanced cool downs compared to the human players forcing you to react and think quicker.
Dreaming a little dream....
That would be pretty damn sweet , if only the ai were that adaptivly clever
I got a football (real football which involves feet kicking a ball not that American rubbish) a few days ago, so I went to the local park for a kick around.
I saw some guys who also wanted a fun kick around so we just split into random teams and had some fun. No scores were kept really but it was fun. After an hour we said our goodbyes and went away enriched.
The next day I went to the park for another kick around as it was so much fun. I saw the same people there and the team we played against had decided to practise again and came up with some tactics. They had the edge but we still scored some goals and they didn't completely thrash us so it was fun.
The third day I went there and found some different people there but only enough for one side. We were saved though as the local football team was there. So they played us and it was a complete stomp, we didn't stand a chance against an experienced team that was used to playing with each other. We didn't have much fun but the other team did.
The local football team then graciously offered to make us better. Most of us declined, we didn't want to become serious footballers, most of us had a passing interest and just wanted a bit of fun.
I got a football (real football which involves feet kicking a ball not that American rubbish) a few days ago, so I went to the local park for a kick around.
I saw some guys who also wanted a fun kick around so we just split into random teams and had some fun. No scores were kept really but it was fun. After an hour we said our goodbyes and went away enriched.
The next day I went to the park for another kick around as it was so much fun. I saw the same people there and the team we played against had decided to practise again and came up with some tactics. They had the edge but we still scored some goals and they didn't completely thrash us so it was fun.
The third day I went there and found some different people there but only enough for one side. We were saved though as the local football team was there. So they played us and it was a complete stomp, we didn't stand a chance against an experienced team that was used to playing with each other. We didn't have much fun but the other team did.
The local football team then graciously offered to make us better. Most of us declined, we didn't want to become serious footballers, most of us had a passing interest and just wanted a bit of fun.
I see your point here. But now what about the ones that accepted the offer to be educated? Are you going to go and ask the experienced team to never come back to the park, as you just wanted a bit of fun? And what about the people that got taught? Are you going to expect them to not come to the park again ?
And now, if there are seperate areas in the park for teams and just messing around, what do you do if you have to pick up someone that is experienced, and just in the mood to mess around? Are they not allowed to play now because they are to experienced? And what if it makes one side unbalanced? So now you're still not having fun even with segregated areas to play.
Segregation of queues will not work. STO PvP community is not big enough that having a separate queue for a premade and a pug each is a good idea. If u divide the community, the rift will only widen.
Segregation of queues will not work. STO PvP community is not big enough that having a separate queue for a premade and a pug each is a good idea. If u divide the community, the rift will only widen.
It cannt widen anymore and the reason you have no pvp community is because the lack of separate ques.
It cannt widen anymore and the reason you have no pvp community is because the lack of separate ques.
I'm sure that's 1 reason. But it's not the only reason. I think it could be that Cryptic does not promote PvP in the game, thefore, no reason to learn how to do it or experience it. Bugs in the game are another reason. The list goes on that makes the community small.
It cannt widen anymore and the reason you have no pvp community is because the lack of separate ques.
You think that is so, because you think everything would be magically better if there was just no more premades queueing up? You couldn't be more wrong. I pug all the time. If you FvK, chances are you have run into me at least once. And I hardly ever see a premade. It's not that I don't see them, but 95% of the time, its a pug vs another pug. Whenever I get bored with FvK, I go for FvF as well. Guess what? Most of the time it's again pug vs pug. Premades are there, but they are not the devil that everybody in this thread is making them out to be. In fact, premades imo are being made into a sacrificial lamb in this thread just so people have an excuse. i'm not saying premades could not abuse the superiority of their composition and coordination, but it just does not happen as often as everybody else in this thread is screaming about.
A. People are playing a MMO game
B. People conveniently want to forget this is a MMO game and kirk it up so that they can impress their friends and commence circlejerking.
Bootcamp was a right step towards making pvp community grow. PvPers in fleet helping teach PvP to their fleetmates is a right step towards making pvp community grow. Cryptic fixing broken abilities, giving us new maps, completing kdf faction, balancing out overall outlook of things, etc, all could be right steps towards making pvp community grow. Maye even going to the extreme of separating how abilities interact with stuff in pvp and out of pvp could be the rights step in making pvp grow. On the other hand, segregating premades entirely is a stupid idea. Tell me, how many PvP fleets are out there? How many premades do you see roll any given time. In a game where some aspects of the game struggle to fill in even pug vs pug matches because of a rather small community, ostracizing an entire group of players because they figured out this is a team game and as such should be played like one, is entirely laughable.
I would say that bootcamp is directed primarily at growing the premade community. Which will only affect the casual pvper. Growing the casual pvper community is something else altogether, the separate que system is what I believe to be the answer to the latter.
Comments
My "role" is what I decide it is, sparky, and if I choose to play in a way that doesn't suit your rigid parameters, it's not because I'm ignorant of the game mechanics, but because I will not be constrained by your values and priorites. I get tired of polling PUG teams to figure out who will draw aggro, who will heal, who will subnuke/gravity well/warp plasma/etc just to have smug ****bags whining and talking trash in team chat.
I'll remember that next time you need a heal :P
Also get in game so we can play...er..with....I'm not gonna finish that =S
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
No, you misunderstand. I am not saying you are not entitled to play the style you want to. I'm just saying maybe it might not be prudent to ask afterwards why you lost. :rolleyes:
Elite Defense Stovokor
/10 chars
Elite Defense Stovokor
And had you ever caught me doing so, you might have a point, but it's usually not hard to figure out why your team lost, and it's not because someone had the staggering audacity to defy the role your royal highness would assign them, but because the team as a whole lacked coordination. If you're coordinated well, you could prevail in a pugmatch with a team full of SciScorts with mk x white gear. But even when someone steps up to call targets for a pug team, there's no guarantee they aren't some inept ***clown with no clue what they're doing. Best bet is to hope for a team of strangers who are all good at being self-reliant, and offer enough initiative to watch for what everyone else is shooting at and concentrate fire.
Yes, there always will be a few clueless novices out there who have absolutely no idea what they are doing. But I'm talking about broadening the PvP player pool as a whole. If everybody strives to be better, the community as a whole will benefit. And there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if knowledgeable members of the community embraced their roles even when pugging, everybody's pvp experience will be that much better. Will you still get your TRIBBLE handed by premades? Absolutely!! But at least you won't go down without a fight. There is definitely a ladder or a food chain in play here, and pre-mades are at the top of it. And you would only be kidding yourself to think you should be able to take on one while pugging. But everybody fight better = maybe you know who you want to team up with next. Maybe pretty soon, you will come up with your own premade.
On the other hand, if everybody only kirks it, nobody will gain any insight on how to play better. So end result, you will think it's the game to blame, cryptic to blame, premades to blame, pvp sucks, blah, blah.
Elite Defense Stovokor
You're just looking for a reason to be offended, aren't you?
Apparently it doesn't matter if your friends are not online you are just supposed to queue up anyway and let the premades slaughter you. :rolleyes:
Pugs = usually a lack of coordination.
Pugs = usually a lack of synergy.
Pugs = Kirking much?
Premades = umm, uhh, can't think of a Con other than; "Say Cheese".
In general = an ever decreasing amount of PvP enthusiasts.
Other problems...
Gear differences between "Veterans" or "Old Timers" or "Moneybags" vs. others...
To be decently viable in a PvP match requires a lot of grinding, a lot of it, and then some.
Oh, one unquantifiable quotient is luck! heh
Then the Skills or L2P... well...
The game is not really set up for learning team work, nor for learning any of a few
vital game mechanics that should be learned before Max Level. Barring certain
individuals and what not, it can be difficult for someone to learn more about the
intricacies of the PvP scene.
Also, leveling is just way too fast!
Here follows is a common problem that occurs;
Player reaches 50! alright! yay! even gets some halfway decent gear, etc.
Decides to go into PVP since it has been "fun" in other games.
(little do they know that they just stepped into the twilight zone...)
Anyway, random pug queue... gets into match... gets roflmaostomped...
OMG!!!, dead, dead, dead, over and over... Did I do anything at all!?
Well, this royally sucks (insert adjective here)...
I know, lets ask around for help, zone? local? tells? (some might try forum)
to which more times than not its ignored, or gets replies like LOL, :P, or L2P, or worse.
Granted, some actually do answer with advice, which unfortunately is the exception.
With so many things stacked against a new PvPer, it usually ends up that player
no longer queues up for anything PvP related ever again.
I fell into this myself... even though I haven't actually tried to PvP in a very long time,
I still tried to improve and learn. Even went into private matches with fleeties.
(When that old fleet still had people actively in it anyway)
Luckily, I have learned a bit, maybe even quite a bit since then.
(On that note, I'll have to try and remember to look for a new fleet, maybe a PvP fleet)
I'll admit that the synergy of team work is...
...difficult to learn with out constructive activities.
Anyways, before I keep going off tangent or rambling...
The whole experience left a sour taste that is hard to overcome.
Even got a few friends to try it out! well, that only lasted a few matches...
I'm not sure how many Pugs I tried, though it was more than 20...
Once, I got into a Pug vs Pug! OK, that one was pretty decent. Fun even.
The majority if not most of the other matches were against Premades.
It could have been some bad luck involved on match making, though, maybe not.
Some of them might have been teams of 2 or 3, though those teams had the
advantage of communication, thus coordination. I did end up once in a match where
I was paired with a 3 person team that was all from the same fleet.
ok, so, overall... situations can be rather bad indeed.
Now, I do like the idea of having solo pugging, and a Premade Lobby.
However, that would not be exactly fair for teams of say 2 or 3 people.
A team of 4 I imagine could get just that 1 more member.
A Leader Board could be possible for the Premade Lobby,
(assuming you could have set teams under a team or squad name, or something)
though a Leader Board for solo pugging would be a bad, and abused thing.
oh, almost forgot... If there was a seperate vessel and seperate gear for PvP,
I'm afraid that would just end up being yet another thing to grind for.
All of the above is IMHO and thank you for reading if you got through the wall.
This is one of the biggest drawbacks of this game. By being set as it is, the game tacitly approves peoples' need/desire to fill in captain kirk's shoes. Come to think of it, the design might not even be unintentional.
Elite Defense Stovokor
I am finished with this thread, enjoy the loneliness trying to get everyone else to be just like you. I am not the one whining the game isn't what I want it to be. The game is a single player MMO with a smidgen of basic PvP thrown in. You are the one whining that everyone else won't adopt your idea of how teams should coordinate and play PvP.
The fact that Horizon taught you so much, yet did not need to teach me anything about team play might suggest that you are too busy criticizing and not busy enough listening.
I team up all the time with like minded players. We are all self sufficient and put together on a team we do not lose 0-15. We do not use macros or OP consoles, just sound tactics. When I played team sports players were on offense and defense and played more than one position. Today they specialize too much and the games are of much lower quality because of it. Players like Michael Jordan excelled because they redefined what a player could do, not because they squeezed into the limited role others imagined for them.
As far as roles:
Sadly, this game doesn't lend itself to redefining roles, its about being the first to discover a changed mechanic and using it to your advantage, be it in a team or solo. So your argument about redefining roles is a bit weak.
All the above being said, i personally think it would be an awesome idea to have 2 different types of queues - the same way you have normal and Elite STF's. "Elite" pew pew queues for seasoned pew pewers and "Normal" for solo and newcomers.
To supplement this, the "No Win" scenario should be re written. In it's current form, its a "Win Win" scenario.
Instead, to aid the migration from PVE to PvP, the "No Win" Scenario should become a 5 man AI team that behaves as a premade does. Lets face it, there are set routines in any premade teams. I'm sure this human behavior could be coded.
Each wave you beat as a human team, the AI gets harder in way of doing what a what a PvP premade would do more effectively each wave and towards the latter end, "cheat" in way of more advanced cool downs compared to the human players forcing you to react and think quicker.
Dreaming a little dream....
If you really want to dream, the Elite queue should offer large dilithium & EC rewards (think, in the millions) based on a hilbert style score applied to the entire team.
Think 5 to 20 mill per team member for a win.
The "normal" queue would not, to give the people there something to aspire to. However, they do get PvP centric loading screens with tips such as:
Please make a bind to distribute your shields.
Pass Tac Teams to non-escorts.
Bring 2 copies of EPTS for PvP.
Dream a little dream with me Naz. :P
What I wanted to ask is: is it really that bad?
I'm F2P I've tried few (3 - daily) time to play some PvP despite my lack of PvP knowledge and bad build. First time we managed to win, 2nd time were overwhelmed and 3rd time was... so-so, with loss.
As I often play team-oriented games (played pug PvP in GW2 a little with some success, playing LoL and DotA2 etc.) I have general knowledge in how to utilize the abilities to get as much as possible from them. Also, through those games, I developed my teamwork ability, so I'm carefully selecting my targets, pass TT, ST and HE to whoever needs it (giving them priority if I notice that they have better DPS), debuff vital targets etc. However, I quite often don't have any idea what to do, and observing my teammates doesn't help me. Not to mention that we don't exchange even one word.
First time I entered PvP, I was literally blasted from the space in 3 seconds. I didn't really have any idea what just happened, nor how to anticipate that. After battle, I asked opponents how did they have insane damage, and one Klingon player explained the basics to me. I also looked at these forums and gained some knowledge.
However, there isn't any decent PvP tutorial - all "tutorial" missions are basically just "here's the arena, now go in and shoot everything that isn't on your side". So, unless player takes the initiative (by looking at STO sites and asking other players), there's basically nothing to teach him the basics.
Sorry for a mess of the post, I'm quite bad with structuring my thoughts
Your post was fine, and you are off to a good start.
You're definitely right in that this game does not prepare the player at all for PvP, and it just dumps you in at the deep end.
I suggest you join the Tyler Durden channel (it's not private, anyone can join).
The channel is often quiet, but you can find good matches there that try to be balanced.
Teamspeak is usually provided, and you will meet a lot of veterans who are willing to give build & pvp advice.
Good luck, and welcome to the forums.
Abandon hope all ye who enter.
RUN, NEVER LOOK BACK AND RUN!!
Ok joking aside, ask in TD as above but also if you're feeling brave have a wander over to kerrat, you can learn a lot of basics there, some people are douchebags but just don't respond and move on to them.
It won't help you quite as much with the teamwork but it will certainly help you get some experience under your belt, see what helps and doesn't help. You can also see what other people are using and if you see someone owning 5 people you can see what they're using.
Watch the icons underneath the enemy and be aware of your surroundings, headphones help for hearing a cloaked attacker but having a decent volume on speakers and listening for a buff up sound helps. Pay attention to captain classes and how they wield their specific abilities in order to gain the upper hand, example being using a sub nucleonics beam just as the enemy starts using their plan B escape method to effectively stop it and deal the killing blow.
If you're lucky you might be able to team with people there but if you have some friends go there together, team up, communicate and see how you can utilise abilities that can be passed between the team to increase survivability and to overcome debuffs etc.
Finally do not be afraid to make a post here or in the mechanics area if there's something you need to know, just don't get put off by the walls of maths that can suddenly appear.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
+1 to all of these
* Add Solo queue where teams are completely random, add balancing to this later
* Add Team queue for premades to fight other premades
In addition...
* Remove FvF and FvK queues, throw everyone into the same groups despite faction.
* Replace FvF with Solo queue
* Replace FvK with Team queue
And you're done. PVP will now have more people playing each other. More people will play KDF. And more people will experiment with PVP since they can no longer get pugstomped by premades. Win. Win. Win.
This makes sense.
Lion Heart of Hammer Squadron
That would be pretty damn sweet
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
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@DevolvedOne
I saw some guys who also wanted a fun kick around so we just split into random teams and had some fun. No scores were kept really but it was fun. After an hour we said our goodbyes and went away enriched.
The next day I went to the park for another kick around as it was so much fun. I saw the same people there and the team we played against had decided to practise again and came up with some tactics. They had the edge but we still scored some goals and they didn't completely thrash us so it was fun.
The third day I went there and found some different people there but only enough for one side. We were saved though as the local football team was there. So they played us and it was a complete stomp, we didn't stand a chance against an experienced team that was used to playing with each other. We didn't have much fun but the other team did.
The local football team then graciously offered to make us better. Most of us declined, we didn't want to become serious footballers, most of us had a passing interest and just wanted a bit of fun.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I see your point here. But now what about the ones that accepted the offer to be educated? Are you going to go and ask the experienced team to never come back to the park, as you just wanted a bit of fun? And what about the people that got taught? Are you going to expect them to not come to the park again ?
And now, if there are seperate areas in the park for teams and just messing around, what do you do if you have to pick up someone that is experienced, and just in the mood to mess around? Are they not allowed to play now because they are to experienced? And what if it makes one side unbalanced? So now you're still not having fun even with segregated areas to play.
Lion Heart of Hammer Squadron
Elite Defense Stovokor
It cannt widen anymore and the reason you have no pvp community is because the lack of separate ques.
I'm sure that's 1 reason. But it's not the only reason. I think it could be that Cryptic does not promote PvP in the game, thefore, no reason to learn how to do it or experience it. Bugs in the game are another reason. The list goes on that makes the community small.
Lion Heart of Hammer Squadron
You think that is so, because you think everything would be magically better if there was just no more premades queueing up? You couldn't be more wrong. I pug all the time. If you FvK, chances are you have run into me at least once. And I hardly ever see a premade. It's not that I don't see them, but 95% of the time, its a pug vs another pug. Whenever I get bored with FvK, I go for FvF as well. Guess what? Most of the time it's again pug vs pug. Premades are there, but they are not the devil that everybody in this thread is making them out to be. In fact, premades imo are being made into a sacrificial lamb in this thread just so people have an excuse. i'm not saying premades could not abuse the superiority of their composition and coordination, but it just does not happen as often as everybody else in this thread is screaming about.
Elite Defense Stovokor
Or it could be endless power creep.
Or it could be all of the overpowered items/powers still floating around.
Or all of the broken things.
Or the fact that there is 0 incentive in this game to PvP at all, no rewards that are competitive with what PvE gives.
Or the attitudes of a lot of players is pretty poor, antagonistic, toxic.
Really there could be a lot of reasons.
I've been to kerrat a number of times, and I can't even find a Klingon to shoot some days and 90% of the Feds there are just there to farm borg.
There are hardly any "premades" in kerrat, so what's driving people away from there?
No it is not.
A. People are playing a MMO game
B. People conveniently want to forget this is a MMO game and kirk it up so that they can impress their friends and commence circlejerking.
Bootcamp was a right step towards making pvp community grow. PvPers in fleet helping teach PvP to their fleetmates is a right step towards making pvp community grow. Cryptic fixing broken abilities, giving us new maps, completing kdf faction, balancing out overall outlook of things, etc, all could be right steps towards making pvp community grow. Maye even going to the extreme of separating how abilities interact with stuff in pvp and out of pvp could be the rights step in making pvp grow. On the other hand, segregating premades entirely is a stupid idea. Tell me, how many PvP fleets are out there? How many premades do you see roll any given time. In a game where some aspects of the game struggle to fill in even pug vs pug matches because of a rather small community, ostracizing an entire group of players because they figured out this is a team game and as such should be played like one, is entirely laughable.
Elite Defense Stovokor
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
Like my alien? Watch THE VIDEO
Need custom graphics for you or your fleet? Click HERE