If your the majority it's only cause people that insist on taking teams into the q, have forced most other people trying to pvp out of pvp. Teams going into the q and destroying it have done a better job at destroying pvp then any other thing in the game.
If they were to add different ques, one for teams, one for solo people you would see a lot more people start to pvp.
Oh wow you really think you are clever don't you. No trap was fallen for. I simply used your logic against you.
You are the minority of pvp, you will always be. The majority will be in the pug queue. If you can't handle yourself in your team of 3 then you have 2 options. Split up and join the pug queue, or follow your own advice and increae your team size to 4 or 5.
Really, seriously, try harder.
Actually the only try hard here is you.
Reasons:
- Youre a hypocrite by claiming my form of logic is inadmissible while suggesting the same logic as the great solution to the problem in the first place.
- You still have not given a viable solution to have three (and only three) friends play some pvp together
- You have zero evidence of this claim of a majority. nearly everyone I know that PvPs has either been a part of, or is part of, some form of premade team, be it just casual friends or hardcore pvp fleets. Id say the majority are us and not you.
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Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
If your the majority it's only cause people that insist on taking teams into the q, have forced most other people trying to pvp out of pvp. Teams going into the q and destroying it have done a better job at destroying pvp then any other thing in the game.
If they were to add different ques, one for teams, one for solo people you would see a lot more people start to pvp.
Speculation and guessing is not a citation, sir.
There is no empirical evidence pointing to the premades being the destroyer of worlds, nor is there any evidence that doing this proposal will help PvP in any way.
To add even more to that, it will take just a few times of your solo queue getting a cloaked vaper slaughtering your whole team to do the same thing you claim the premades did.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Do you play Star Trek Online? Do you speak with people? It's been one of the biggest problems for a long time and cited by many as a reason for them not taking part in pvp. I have met a great many people that do not do pvp because they do not want to q up to be pug stomped. It's not a enjoyable playing experience many wish to take part in.
Actually the only try hard here is you.
- You have zero evidence of this claim of a majority. nearly everyone I know that PvPs has either been a part of, or is part of, some form of premade team, be it just casual friends or hardcore pvp fleets. Id say the majority are us and not you.
Biggest problem I see with separate ques* (Autocomplete on my Android is trolling me) is that no matter how many teams are out there, there will only be a few [most likely 2] at any given time. Meaning it is not a philosophical issue that they are arguing. It is a logistical issue. They will only get to play against the same people every day.
You have caught yourself in a logical loop here. Just admit the MAJORITY of the PVP community would identify as pug. And the majority would be better off if premades were segregated to their own queue and pugs were allowed to explore PVP without your shenanigans.
- You still have not given a viable solution to have three (and only three) friends play some pvp together
I did. If your team of three cannot queue in the team queue then split up and join the pug queue. Otherwise recruit a 4th and join the premade queue. Again, you know, but you continue to pretend that this solution is impossible to come to. It is easily seen so you should probably just accept that and you'll stop looking the fool.
Do you play Star Trek Online? Do you speak with people? It's been one of the biggest problems for a long time and cited by many as a reason for them not taking part in pvp. I have met a great many people that do not do pvp because they do not want to q up to be pug stomped. It's not a enjoyable playing experience many wish to take part in.
Someone said it in another post earlier in this thread (or the other one). Someone that actually wants to PvP and be successful at it, will do so by any means necessary, including taking the step of teaming up if need be.
Im sorry PvP is a difficult thing, there will always be someone better than you. I can name a few names off the top of my head that are worlds above me in the grand scheme of things, but they are on my radar and will be beaten (team or solo depending on who it is) some day.
Whenever you have a multiplayer PvP situation it is NEVER about the individual.
Do you realize how many people play the "id beat you if you were alone" card on me and then got thrashed in the challenge match after?
Its not about being beaten by a group, its about losing and being upset their pixels got blown up in almost every case.
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Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
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I did. If your team of three cannot queue in the team queue then split up and join the pug queue. Otherwise recruit a 4th and join the premade queue. Again, you know, but you continue to pretend that this solution is impossible to come to. It is easily seen so you should probably just accept that and you'll stop looking the fool.
This is not a single player game, I should not be forced to play alone when I want to play with my two friends, and only my two friends.
This works both ways.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
actually The Only Try Hard Here Is You.
- Youre A Hypocrite By Claiming My Form Of Logic Is Inadmissible While Suggesting The Same Logic As The Great Solution To The Problem In The First Place.
- You Still Have Not Given A Viable Solution To Have Three (and Only Three) Friends Play Some Pvp Together
someone Said It In Another Post Earlier In This Thread (or The Other One). Someone That Actually Wants To Pvp And Be Successful At It, Will Do So By Any Means Necessary, Including Taking The Step Of Teaming Up If Need Be.
Rofl. Just read that back to yourself. Please do. And answer your own question about what your hypothetical team of 3 will do.
My problem with Premade vs Pug is simple, I do not like to loose. I mean there really is no other valid reason out there.
It is not fair. (does not want to loose)
A lot of people do not have teams (does not want to loose)
People are rude when they win in a premade (Rare but it happens, Does not want to loose)
It is that simple, nobody wants to loose. I however can accept a defeat as long as I have a chance at winning. Now in my perfect world that means we could have 1 Que for Premade/Pugmade groups to join, and 1 Que for Pugs. In this perfect world it works very well, seeing as Premades fight other Premades, Pugmades fight other Pugmades, and Pugs get to go get icecream without seeing either of them.
Now for the problems with this idea that make it challenging if not impossible. I actually believe there may be as few as 1,000 players that actively PvP in game. Of this 1,000 players there is probably only 20 or so active teams. This means there is at any given time a population of about 2 teams online. These numbers are all wrong but more used to point out the logistical issue. Now with 20 available teams, the Ques for Premades are going to pop soooooo slow that it will not be worth it probably. Either that or out of all the possible combinations there will eventually be nothing new to do.
Seperate Ques requires us to butcher the Team aspect of the Ques, seeing as a Team and Pug only Que will further divide the small community we have. I wish it would happen as I am in favor of it, but I doubt it can.
You took two points out of context. The first is in response to you refusing to find a team. I had a team.
In my scenario I have already taken that step. In yours youre effectively destroying anything less than a full five man team.
Two extremes cannot be compared.
You sound like a politician now. Yeah... you can't win this argument bro. You have already contradicted yourself waaaay too many times to keep coming back. It's plain as day to everyone else, you're not fooling anyone.
This is not a single player game, I should not be forced to play alone when I want to play with my two friends, and only my two friends.
This works both ways.
I think my earlier post here sums up your reason for not wanting this change. The simple numbers of it would ruin the experience for you. Seeing as in your case the number of players you are able to call upon might not create a full size team. Thus forcing you and your would be team members to part ways.
I think in "Theory" the idea of seperate ques is sound, but in practice it simply can not be done unless we get a larger population.
- You have zero evidence of this claim of a majority. nearly everyone I know that PvPs has either been a part of, or is part of, some form of premade team, be it just casual friends or hardcore pvp fleets. Id say the majority are us and not you.
In my scenario I have already taken that step. In yours youre effectively destroying anything less than a full five man team.
Uh you just said
1) I have zero evidence that pugs/randoms are the majority
2) Creating pug queues and premade queues will 'destroy' 5 man teams
You just made my point that 5 man premades are the minority. You keep eating crow. How does it taste? Why should PVP cater to your desire to pugstomp when you are are the minority (said by yourself)?
Wonder how a FFA type game would go down. As in 10 players, all on their own, first to 15 kills.
Everyone gets 1500 dilithium for taking part, first place gets a title, trophy for their ship and mk XII v.rare item. 2nd gets a mk XI v.rare item. 3rd gets a mk XI rare item.
Wonder how a FFA type game would go down. As in 10 players, all on their own, first to 15 kills.
Everyone gets 1500 dilithium for taking part, first place gets a title, trophy for their ship and mk XII v.rare item. 2nd gets a mk XI v.rare item. 3rd gets a mk XI rare item.
I like this idea, but the game has trouble as is determining who gets what kill. And it kinda makes Sci control builds worthless. But would be fun to play.
This pug queue that supposedly will save PVP - am I the only one who is sceptical as to whether it would work out well if Cryptic did their usual "random 5 against random 5" thing without any further balancing?
Just take 10 players, order them alphabetically by the MD5 hashes of their handles or some other random thing and see how balanced the matches are. There is a reason why the TD-style matches usually don't use a random distribution of the 10 players.
And if one requires further balancing for the pug queue anyway, why not apply this balancing to the regular queue and thus create a combined queue that can match premades against premades, "super pugs" against premades and also launch balanced matches with pure pugs or partial teams, all from the same player pool? Why split the queue and the population if you can have all the benefits also from a balanced unified queue system?
This pug queue that supposedly will save PVP - am I the only one who is sceptical as to whether it would work out well if Cryptic did their usual "random 5 against random 5" thing without any further balancing?
Just take 10 players, order them alphabetically by the MD5 hashes of their handles or some other random thing and see how balanced the matches are. There is a reason why the TD-style matches usually don't use a random distribution of the 10 players.
And if one requires further balancing for the pug queue anyway, why not apply this balancing to the regular queue and thus create a combined queue that can match premades against premades, "super pugs" against premades and also launch balanced matches with pure pugs or partial teams, all from the same player pool? Why split the queue and the population if you can have all the benefits also from a balanced unified queue system?
A very nice idea, but then there are challenges to this. Like how you would determine a players skill, as in how good a player is at filling a specific role. Then the issue of possibly a PvP Reputation or official PvP leaderboard comes in. Does Cryptic's score board do justice to what is acutally happening? For instance, Science players are mostly at the bottom of the leaderboard, but do quite a lot to secure victory.
I think it would work, just how to go about it is well beyond anything I care to speculate on. Since any PvPer worth thier salt can attest to a player's skill can make a match unbalanced just as much as his ship, equipment, and synergy with his given team.
I cant believe this guy still thinks its about easy kills, because its not lol.
Keeping telling yourself that as the pool of would be puggers gets smaller and smaller. Eventually all that will be left are other teams out there. If these supposed premades only looking for other premades had any shred of decency when they roll into a bad pug they would have some of their guys sit out or *gasp* hold back the cheese and spam. However, they almost never do. So your still rofl stomping pugs and keep on doing so you must be enjoying it.
WE DO NOT QUEUE TO ROLL PUGS. WE QUEUE FOR THE DOUBLE BLIND HOPE OF GETTING A TEAM THAT WE ARENT PREPARED SPECIFICALLY FOR, THE CHALLENGE FACTOR.
:rolleyes: How many pugs do you roll in before you find a good, competitive team? Your 5 man enjoyment ruins PvP for 3 or 4 times your number. But hey its not all about you.
PREARRANGED MATCHES TEND TO BE PREDICTABLE, ERGO: PERSON X IS GOING TO BE THE HEALER, PERSON Y IS THEIR DAMAGE DEALER.
Its an MMO with classes, wtf did you expect? Even with STO's very casual trinity, it still exists. RPG's have always seemed to favor hyper specialization. They often suffer from engine limitations and a physics world that defies reality. If this were a real Star Trek game, there wouldn't be ship healers in the middle of combat healing other ships with magic spells (boff powers).
We dont necessarily want that sort of cookie cutter setup TRIBBLE. Thats okay now and then, but the last thing we want are uberpredictable always the same fight thing.
Fight clubbing against the same few people every single match gets REALLY OLD.
So a separate team queue would be ok with you? That really does seem to be the best of both worlds here, you get your randomness, and solo queues are *** hat free. I never team and accept the randomness of my team. Like your claim of challenge and variety, I like surprises. However, the queues need to be separated because 5 man teams are rarely ever challenged by random pugs.
Uhm, no. When I run into premade premades, I'm out. I refuse to even waste my time with that. Its not like premades roll around with tier 4 ships and see how well they can do without lockboxes against pugs. If I saw stuff like that I might respect the challenge seeking. But premade guys are trolling the queues for their own pleasure.
This pug queue that supposedly will save PVP - am I the only one who is sceptical as to whether it would work out well if Cryptic did their usual "random 5 against random 5" thing without any further balancing?
Just take 10 players, order them alphabetically by the MD5 hashes of their handles or some other random thing and see how balanced the matches are. There is a reason why the TD-style matches usually don't use a random distribution of the 10 players.
And if one requires further balancing for the pug queue anyway, why not apply this balancing to the regular queue and thus create a combined queue that can match premades against premades, "super pugs" against premades and also launch balanced matches with pure pugs or partial teams, all from the same player pool? Why split the queue and the population if you can have all the benefits also from a balanced unified queue system?
This is exactly what I've been saying all along. To get separate queues right, there has to be better matchmaking. If we have better matchmaking, separate queues are superfluous.
A very nice idea, but then there are challenges to this. Like how you would determine a players skill, as in how good a player is at filling a specific role. Then the issue of possibly a PvP Reputation or official PvP leaderboard comes in. Does Cryptic's score board do justice to what is acutally happening? For instance, Science players are mostly at the bottom of the leaderboard, but do quite a lot to secure victory.
I think it would work, just how to go about it is well beyond anything I care to speculate on. Since any PvPer worth thier salt can attest to a player's skill can make a match unbalanced just as much as his ship, equipment, and synergy with his given team.
No system is ever perfect, but empirical evidence from past matches seem to suggest that TD-style balanced matches seem to be on an equal footing with both teams. True, further optimization could be done, and even in some TD matches I have been on, the match arranger is usually counting how many scis were there before choosing one of the suggested team arrangement and those were the matches that usually ended with a 14-15 score, but same could probably be done with the automated in-game match making, should such a thing ever be implemented. Identifying a character name associated with a certain handle as being a specific captain class does not exactly fall into the realm of voodoo.
To everybody else shouting 'premade teams are ruining pvp', have you considered forming your own team out of, say, OPvP channel?
A pug only queue is simply unrealistic wish fulfilment from a vocal minority of loner care bears who don't ever want to play with friends and want to lower the rest of the community to their level. A better option would be a queue with limited teaming.
The majority of PvPers aren't in premades, but the majority of PvPers aren't habitual loners either. They're in the middle. They'd prefer not to have to fight a premade, but they also want to be able to team up with friends and play together sometimes.
Split queues could work if done right -- have one queue only allow teams up to three, while the other only accepts full teams of five. Give the premade queue increased rewards (or some other draw, like a tie in to the fleet system) to increase participation or it will not be able to sustain itself. Give the non-premade queue some sort of Hilbert-esque balancing formula to create more even matches.
Even with great incentives you're still likely to have a lack of premades in some time zones. To counteract this you could still let teams greater than three enter the non-premade queue, but give them a significant handicap like 75% health and damage for each member in a four man team, all the way down to 50% health and damage for each member in a five man team.
With the right implementation, split queues could be great -- but if you were to split the queues today into only pug and only premade with no other changes it would be the immediate end of the PvP community.
A pug only queue is simply unrealistic wish fulfilment from a vocal minority of loner care bears who don't ever want to play with friends and want to lower the rest of the community to their level.
That is a dishonest portrayal. Not everyone has the time or the inclination to play "friendship envoy" with total strangers, spamming zone chat with their dating profile so they can form a premade team, and hoping there aren't any extra language barrier and/or maturity level aggravations to contend with. Some of us are only willing and able to log on and get down to it without a bunch of extraneous human-centric hoop jumping.
"Form a premade or don't queue" is an ignorant non-answer. Saying nothing at all would be equally useful.
That is a dishonest portrayal. Not everyone has the time or the inclination to play "friendship envoy" with total strangers, spamming zone chat with their dating profile so they can form a premade team, and hoping there aren't any extra language barrier and/or maturity level aggravations to contend with. Some of us are only willing and able to log on and get down to it without a bunch of extraneous human-centric hoop jumping.
If you're antisocial and don't have friends then that's your problem. This is an MMO, not a single player game. Most players (or at least most PvPers) do have friends that they want to play with from time to time. How selfish do you have to be to want to take away other people's ability to play with their friends just to make yourself feel better about PvPing? I understand you don't want to play against premades, but are you really so spiteful that you would take away the ability for a player to team up with one or two friends?
I have plenty of friends that play this game, but only a few like to pvp. I could go make more pvp friends, but I have a wife, a job, school, and family that take up the rest of my time. Even if I had more friends that pvp, I still would not have time to refine my builds and work on team tactics. I grew up playing lots of team sports. I'm not a loner.
What bugs me more about your statement is the people ragging on premades are making broad statements that really only apply to a few people and not all premades. They'er overlooking big issues like not enough good premades to play with and pugmade not equaling a premade, for example. You are also making a broad statement that really only applies to a few people and not everyone. Not everyone who pugs the queue is a loner. Some maybe, but most are doing dailies, are new to pvp, don't have friends that pvp, or are on at a different time as their friends. Sure there'TRIBBLE and OPVP, but most TD matches are organized too early in the morning for where I live (west coast, north america) and getting a 5v5 going in OPvP can take forever most of the time.
You are also making a broad statement that really only applies to a few people and not everyone.
I'm not sure if you fully understood my post. My first sentence applies only to those that want a queue that disallows teaming altogether, not just premades, and yes my description of that type of person is rather accurate.
If you want to read the rest of my post you'll see that I'm not against split queues at all, given a robust enough implementation.
Split queues simply aint going to work. For the simple reason that there wont be any premades to fight.
The only thing that will work, and which will benefit the whole PvP community is some sort of rank based system where 'good' players (and also based on gear rating etc) will be queued up against each other. At least it should try to do the best it can.
Queue up newbies and people with less then maxed gear against each other.
As it stands now, two or three premades a night queue up at different times, and all premades are being put against pugs where with a simple system like I suggested above would actually have let the premades wait for each other. Sure it will take a whole lot longer sometimes for pops to queue, but its worth the wait.
With Gear I mean Rep passives and Doffs etc as well.
Simple as that. Takes too much work though, the only system they have no to somewhat base stats on is the end-game scoreboard which has always been very inaccurate.
So thats not even a base to start with. Good luck Cryptic.
I have plenty of friends that play this game, but only a few like to pvp. I could go make more pvp friends, but I have a wife, a job, school, and family that take up the rest of my time. Even if I had more friends that pvp, I still would not have time to refine my builds and work on team tactics. I grew up playing lots of team sports. I'm not a loner.
Seems like what you are looking for is a tiered queue, and not a separate queue, so that you can still have some fun without raging about premades. Split queues and tiered queues are two separate things. (for eg, look up hilbert's post earlier in the thread)
Eg, there was a 3man-premade in a 4v4 (their 4th was a pug) fvf last night. In my pug, one quit match at the onset, the other quit match at the mid of the fight, the third was afk for most of the fight. The premade was from a little known fleet, who had very poor coordination as well as very little crosshealing. I was fighting them alone most of the time, and took the score to a 10-15 loss (a win for them, in a 4v1 situation!!). How do you justify excluding such premades? By all means they looked like they were newcomers to the game of PvP. For crying out loud, their tac didn't even ever use tac team, and I managed to kill him in midst of his friends more than once. So are you guys advocating a separate queue saying that even such premades should be entirely disallowed because they will 'ROFLSTOMP pugs?' LOL!
Also, totally dishonest of you to say, there are some really nice people I met in pug matches, some of whom carry the SP tag.
It's also worth mentioning I have played with a lot of the forum users here in PvE (I do not PvP much if at all anymore) and for the most part they're nice people and I have 0 problems flying with them or anyone else regardless of what is said on the forums.
Even the ones I frequently get into debates with etc.
However there are some who do drag the PvP community down and the unfortunate reality is that while having 10 bad eggs in a few thousand isn't bad, having 10 bad eggs in say a hundred is very bad for the community.
Just thought it needed to be said in the midst of all the hostilities.
Most players (or at least most PvPers) do have friends that they want to play with from time to time.
Assumes facts not in evidence. Your personal anecdotes do not constitute "most" or a "majority."
How selfish do you have to be to want to take away other people's ability to play with their friends just to make yourself feel better about PvPing?
Also unsupported. I never suggested taking anything away from anyone. I'm simply pointing out the fact that there are inevitably many paying customers for whom "form your own team" is not a viable option.
Comments
If your the majority it's only cause people that insist on taking teams into the q, have forced most other people trying to pvp out of pvp. Teams going into the q and destroying it have done a better job at destroying pvp then any other thing in the game.
If they were to add different ques, one for teams, one for solo people you would see a lot more people start to pvp.
Actually the only try hard here is you.
Reasons:
- Youre a hypocrite by claiming my form of logic is inadmissible while suggesting the same logic as the great solution to the problem in the first place.
- You still have not given a viable solution to have three (and only three) friends play some pvp together
- You have zero evidence of this claim of a majority. nearly everyone I know that PvPs has either been a part of, or is part of, some form of premade team, be it just casual friends or hardcore pvp fleets. Id say the majority are us and not you.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Speculation and guessing is not a citation, sir.
There is no empirical evidence pointing to the premades being the destroyer of worlds, nor is there any evidence that doing this proposal will help PvP in any way.
To add even more to that, it will take just a few times of your solo queue getting a cloaked vaper slaughtering your whole team to do the same thing you claim the premades did.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Do you play Star Trek Online? Do you speak with people? It's been one of the biggest problems for a long time and cited by many as a reason for them not taking part in pvp. I have met a great many people that do not do pvp because they do not want to q up to be pug stomped. It's not a enjoyable playing experience many wish to take part in.
You have caught yourself in a logical loop here. Just admit the MAJORITY of the PVP community would identify as pug. And the majority would be better off if premades were segregated to their own queue and pugs were allowed to explore PVP without your shenanigans.
I did. If your team of three cannot queue in the team queue then split up and join the pug queue. Otherwise recruit a 4th and join the premade queue. Again, you know, but you continue to pretend that this solution is impossible to come to. It is easily seen so you should probably just accept that and you'll stop looking the fool.
Someone said it in another post earlier in this thread (or the other one). Someone that actually wants to PvP and be successful at it, will do so by any means necessary, including taking the step of teaming up if need be.
Im sorry PvP is a difficult thing, there will always be someone better than you. I can name a few names off the top of my head that are worlds above me in the grand scheme of things, but they are on my radar and will be beaten (team or solo depending on who it is) some day.
Whenever you have a multiplayer PvP situation it is NEVER about the individual.
Do you realize how many people play the "id beat you if you were alone" card on me and then got thrashed in the challenge match after?
Its not about being beaten by a group, its about losing and being upset their pixels got blown up in almost every case.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
This is not a single player game, I should not be forced to play alone when I want to play with my two friends, and only my two friends.
This works both ways.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Rofl. Just read that back to yourself. Please do. And answer your own question about what your hypothetical team of 3 will do.
It is not fair. (does not want to loose)
A lot of people do not have teams (does not want to loose)
People are rude when they win in a premade (Rare but it happens, Does not want to loose)
It is that simple, nobody wants to loose. I however can accept a defeat as long as I have a chance at winning. Now in my perfect world that means we could have 1 Que for Premade/Pugmade groups to join, and 1 Que for Pugs. In this perfect world it works very well, seeing as Premades fight other Premades, Pugmades fight other Pugmades, and Pugs get to go get icecream without seeing either of them.
Now for the problems with this idea that make it challenging if not impossible. I actually believe there may be as few as 1,000 players that actively PvP in game. Of this 1,000 players there is probably only 20 or so active teams. This means there is at any given time a population of about 2 teams online. These numbers are all wrong but more used to point out the logistical issue. Now with 20 available teams, the Ques for Premades are going to pop soooooo slow that it will not be worth it probably. Either that or out of all the possible combinations there will eventually be nothing new to do.
Seperate Ques requires us to butcher the Team aspect of the Ques, seeing as a Team and Pug only Que will further divide the small community we have. I wish it would happen as I am in favor of it, but I doubt it can.
You took two points out of context. The first is in response to you refusing to find a team. I had a team.
In my scenario I have already taken that step. In yours youre effectively destroying anything less than a full five man team.
Two extremes cannot be compared.
But just because we are playing chess here, I will checkmate you.
You tell me my two friends and I ought to find some more so we can queue as a full five man.
Well you can go find four and do the same.
You lose sir.
And with that I shall take my leave of this. 15-0 rylana wins this forum PvP.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
You sound like a politician now. Yeah... you can't win this argument bro. You have already contradicted yourself waaaay too many times to keep coming back. It's plain as day to everyone else, you're not fooling anyone.
*cuckoo cuckoo*
I think my earlier post here sums up your reason for not wanting this change. The simple numbers of it would ruin the experience for you. Seeing as in your case the number of players you are able to call upon might not create a full size team. Thus forcing you and your would be team members to part ways.
I think in "Theory" the idea of seperate ques is sound, but in practice it simply can not be done unless we get a larger population.
Uh you just said
1) I have zero evidence that pugs/randoms are the majority
2) Creating pug queues and premade queues will 'destroy' 5 man teams
You just made my point that 5 man premades are the minority. You keep eating crow. How does it taste? Why should PVP cater to your desire to pugstomp when you are are the minority (said by yourself)?
Everyone gets 1500 dilithium for taking part, first place gets a title, trophy for their ship and mk XII v.rare item. 2nd gets a mk XI v.rare item. 3rd gets a mk XI rare item.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I like this idea, but the game has trouble as is determining who gets what kill. And it kinda makes Sci control builds worthless. But would be fun to play.
Just take 10 players, order them alphabetically by the MD5 hashes of their handles or some other random thing and see how balanced the matches are. There is a reason why the TD-style matches usually don't use a random distribution of the 10 players.
And if one requires further balancing for the pug queue anyway, why not apply this balancing to the regular queue and thus create a combined queue that can match premades against premades, "super pugs" against premades and also launch balanced matches with pure pugs or partial teams, all from the same player pool? Why split the queue and the population if you can have all the benefits also from a balanced unified queue system?
A very nice idea, but then there are challenges to this. Like how you would determine a players skill, as in how good a player is at filling a specific role. Then the issue of possibly a PvP Reputation or official PvP leaderboard comes in. Does Cryptic's score board do justice to what is acutally happening? For instance, Science players are mostly at the bottom of the leaderboard, but do quite a lot to secure victory.
I think it would work, just how to go about it is well beyond anything I care to speculate on. Since any PvPer worth thier salt can attest to a player's skill can make a match unbalanced just as much as his ship, equipment, and synergy with his given team.
Keeping telling yourself that as the pool of would be puggers gets smaller and smaller. Eventually all that will be left are other teams out there. If these supposed premades only looking for other premades had any shred of decency when they roll into a bad pug they would have some of their guys sit out or *gasp* hold back the cheese and spam. However, they almost never do. So your still rofl stomping pugs and keep on doing so you must be enjoying it.
:rolleyes: How many pugs do you roll in before you find a good, competitive team? Your 5 man enjoyment ruins PvP for 3 or 4 times your number. But hey its not all about you.
Its an MMO with classes, wtf did you expect? Even with STO's very casual trinity, it still exists. RPG's have always seemed to favor hyper specialization. They often suffer from engine limitations and a physics world that defies reality. If this were a real Star Trek game, there wouldn't be ship healers in the middle of combat healing other ships with magic spells (boff powers). So a separate team queue would be ok with you? That really does seem to be the best of both worlds here, you get your randomness, and solo queues are *** hat free. I never team and accept the randomness of my team. Like your claim of challenge and variety, I like surprises. However, the queues need to be separated because 5 man teams are rarely ever challenged by random pugs.
Uhm, no. When I run into premade premades, I'm out. I refuse to even waste my time with that. Its not like premades roll around with tier 4 ships and see how well they can do without lockboxes against pugs. If I saw stuff like that I might respect the challenge seeking. But premade guys are trolling the queues for their own pleasure.
This is exactly what I've been saying all along. To get separate queues right, there has to be better matchmaking. If we have better matchmaking, separate queues are superfluous.
No system is ever perfect, but empirical evidence from past matches seem to suggest that TD-style balanced matches seem to be on an equal footing with both teams. True, further optimization could be done, and even in some TD matches I have been on, the match arranger is usually counting how many scis were there before choosing one of the suggested team arrangement and those were the matches that usually ended with a 14-15 score, but same could probably be done with the automated in-game match making, should such a thing ever be implemented. Identifying a character name associated with a certain handle as being a specific captain class does not exactly fall into the realm of voodoo.
To everybody else shouting 'premade teams are ruining pvp', have you considered forming your own team out of, say, OPvP channel?
Elite Defense Stovokor
The majority of PvPers aren't in premades, but the majority of PvPers aren't habitual loners either. They're in the middle. They'd prefer not to have to fight a premade, but they also want to be able to team up with friends and play together sometimes.
Split queues could work if done right -- have one queue only allow teams up to three, while the other only accepts full teams of five. Give the premade queue increased rewards (or some other draw, like a tie in to the fleet system) to increase participation or it will not be able to sustain itself. Give the non-premade queue some sort of Hilbert-esque balancing formula to create more even matches.
Even with great incentives you're still likely to have a lack of premades in some time zones. To counteract this you could still let teams greater than three enter the non-premade queue, but give them a significant handicap like 75% health and damage for each member in a four man team, all the way down to 50% health and damage for each member in a five man team.
With the right implementation, split queues could be great -- but if you were to split the queues today into only pug and only premade with no other changes it would be the immediate end of the PvP community.
That is a dishonest portrayal. Not everyone has the time or the inclination to play "friendship envoy" with total strangers, spamming zone chat with their dating profile so they can form a premade team, and hoping there aren't any extra language barrier and/or maturity level aggravations to contend with. Some of us are only willing and able to log on and get down to it without a bunch of extraneous human-centric hoop jumping.
"Form a premade or don't queue" is an ignorant non-answer. Saying nothing at all would be equally useful.
If you're antisocial and don't have friends then that's your problem. This is an MMO, not a single player game. Most players (or at least most PvPers) do have friends that they want to play with from time to time. How selfish do you have to be to want to take away other people's ability to play with their friends just to make yourself feel better about PvPing? I understand you don't want to play against premades, but are you really so spiteful that you would take away the ability for a player to team up with one or two friends?
Absolutely nowhere did I say that, or anything even like that.
I have plenty of friends that play this game, but only a few like to pvp. I could go make more pvp friends, but I have a wife, a job, school, and family that take up the rest of my time. Even if I had more friends that pvp, I still would not have time to refine my builds and work on team tactics. I grew up playing lots of team sports. I'm not a loner.
What bugs me more about your statement is the people ragging on premades are making broad statements that really only apply to a few people and not all premades. They'er overlooking big issues like not enough good premades to play with and pugmade not equaling a premade, for example. You are also making a broad statement that really only applies to a few people and not everyone. Not everyone who pugs the queue is a loner. Some maybe, but most are doing dailies, are new to pvp, don't have friends that pvp, or are on at a different time as their friends. Sure there'TRIBBLE and OPVP, but most TD matches are organized too early in the morning for where I live (west coast, north america) and getting a 5v5 going in OPvP can take forever most of the time.
I'm not sure if you fully understood my post. My first sentence applies only to those that want a queue that disallows teaming altogether, not just premades, and yes my description of that type of person is rather accurate.
If you want to read the rest of my post you'll see that I'm not against split queues at all, given a robust enough implementation.
The only thing that will work, and which will benefit the whole PvP community is some sort of rank based system where 'good' players (and also based on gear rating etc) will be queued up against each other. At least it should try to do the best it can.
Queue up newbies and people with less then maxed gear against each other.
As it stands now, two or three premades a night queue up at different times, and all premades are being put against pugs where with a simple system like I suggested above would actually have let the premades wait for each other. Sure it will take a whole lot longer sometimes for pops to queue, but its worth the wait.
With Gear I mean Rep passives and Doffs etc as well.
Simple as that. Takes too much work though, the only system they have no to somewhat base stats on is the end-game scoreboard which has always been very inaccurate.
So thats not even a base to start with. Good luck Cryptic.
Seems like what you are looking for is a tiered queue, and not a separate queue, so that you can still have some fun without raging about premades. Split queues and tiered queues are two separate things. (for eg, look up hilbert's post earlier in the thread)
Eg, there was a 3man-premade in a 4v4 (their 4th was a pug) fvf last night. In my pug, one quit match at the onset, the other quit match at the mid of the fight, the third was afk for most of the fight. The premade was from a little known fleet, who had very poor coordination as well as very little crosshealing. I was fighting them alone most of the time, and took the score to a 10-15 loss (a win for them, in a 4v1 situation!!). How do you justify excluding such premades? By all means they looked like they were newcomers to the game of PvP. For crying out loud, their tac didn't even ever use tac team, and I managed to kill him in midst of his friends more than once. So are you guys advocating a separate queue saying that even such premades should be entirely disallowed because they will 'ROFLSTOMP pugs?' LOL!
Elite Defense Stovokor
It's also worth mentioning I have played with a lot of the forum users here in PvE (I do not PvP much if at all anymore) and for the most part they're nice people and I have 0 problems flying with them or anyone else regardless of what is said on the forums.
Even the ones I frequently get into debates with etc.
However there are some who do drag the PvP community down and the unfortunate reality is that while having 10 bad eggs in a few thousand isn't bad, having 10 bad eggs in say a hundred is very bad for the community.
Just thought it needed to be said in the midst of all the hostilities.
Now let's all hold hands and sing come by yah....
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Assumes facts not in evidence. Your personal anecdotes do not constitute "most" or a "majority."
Also unsupported. I never suggested taking anything away from anyone. I'm simply pointing out the fact that there are inevitably many paying customers for whom "form your own team" is not a viable option.