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Why do Pve'ers fear a pvp revamp?
dylantrinidy
Member Posts: 313 Arc User
AN honest question after reading so many comments from people saying no pvp update ever!
I never understood how people find it a challenge to destroy stupid npc's who do the same thing EVERY TIME and are so vocal against a pvp fix. As a mostly pvp'er myself i don't care when pve stuff gets added so why the hel should they care if pvp gets an update they don't even have to play it c'mon on you guys have had 8 seasons!!! can we have one?
I never understood how people find it a challenge to destroy stupid npc's who do the same thing EVERY TIME and are so vocal against a pvp fix. As a mostly pvp'er myself i don't care when pve stuff gets added so why the hel should they care if pvp gets an update they don't even have to play it c'mon on you guys have had 8 seasons!!! can we have one?
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The majority is the driving force. They collectively play more hours then the minority. Some of the majority will play the minority content...but not enough to warrant a full season.
Also. The majority of the majority think that the NPCs are hard...how do you think they'll do against a player?
Sto is a business...catering to the majority is how they make the best margins
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
I dont fear a revamp of it, I just think that the development resources that are put into it would be better spent in making new STFs and PVE content.
Majority player. Represent.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
It's Tyranny of the Masses my friend.
This should explain it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority
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if you want "hardcore PvP" go play EvE...which like most PvP focused MMOs topped out at less than half a million players...
Two, there is only so much dev time to go around. Time spent on upgrading PVP is time not spent fixing or enhancing stuff in the other 95% of the game.
Third, as to killing NPCs, I don't think most people do it for the challenge itself (I don't anyways). We're the heroes, we expect to win, but the measure is how efficiently or playfully or quickly we can win, beating your own high-score so to speak. Soloing a Tac Cube in a Scimitar is a snooze, but doing it in a BoP is a lark. You don't have to agree, everyone likes their own thing, but try and see where others might be coming from.
I don't play that portion that much, in fact, very little.
Fair point.
I started a recent thread asking what may attract PVEers to PVP and, although there were many constructive proposals, there were many who argued it wasn't worth the time or energy.
I'm not sure fear is exactly the right word, but antipathy certainly.
I'd like a PvP experience that interests me. Sadly, the game is not set up as things stand to give me that. It's just too stripped down, too basic, too much a game in a vacuum. Pun, seriously, not intended.
I differ with a few of the previous posters in that I believ the fix for PvP would not require a vast amount of dev input. Certainly not a seasons worth.
To my mind it requires two new mechanisms to be built.
Firstly a solid stat tracker that can be used both to track ones progress and match up teams or individuals on a balanced basis.
Secondly, to allow foundry authors to create PvP maps. Doesn't even have to be the ability to create new PvP modes although that would be nice. Just let their creativity give us the variety we crave.
Worked for counterstrike, eh? Anyone for Dust?
In short, PvP should be a bigger part of the game and could be, for very little effort.
No-one ought to be against this.
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I am a PVP player and I will paid for a expansion that 100% change the PVP system.
People dont play PVP beacose STO PVP sucks, not beacose they dont want PVP. Fix the system and the minority may not be that small.
Sorry for bad english.
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As things stand now you'll need every reputation passive, every piece of fleet gear, rare or paid for universal consoles, a C store or lockbox ship and other PvP'ers in similar set-ups as a premade team to even stand a decent chance to remain competitive.
But this is an inherent design flaw with all of STO, and any amount of PvP only fixing won't change that.
I do agree with your substantive point that dev time needs to be triaged, as it were.
There's only so much a given coder can do in a day.
However, where we may differ is in our assesment of how much effort it would take and whether or not its worth the candle.
If we were talking a huge, season sized sort of thing to get PvP working then I'd agree with you.
However, I truly believe it can be done with little resources from Cryptic, and by opening up map making to the foundry we also allow for the possibility of some truly awesome maps (as we weed out the sad ones).
Thats the point of a ranking system.
While not directly measuring cheese it would, over time, allow us to create far more even matches.
Just another PvP elitism thread.
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from the constant bombardment of rejection notifications
every time the subject comes around season after season.
every time a pvp subject pops up some try to get it closed
fast. but thats just my impression of what i see. i even got
tired of saying anything or contributing to pvp suggestion.
but it is pretty sad there is still no pvp content after 8 seasons.
Then move the mountain.
Create a foundry wrapper that accepts teams.
this would be a new PvP mode, but would also be compatible with straight deathmatch too
now while we can't do the three way battles in PvP that they're supposed to be able to do, we could have a variant of their capturing keeps in that we have outposts at the capture points.
players could capture the CPs and the outposts would activate and attack enemy players that come near.
each side would get a starbase or transwarp gate for their starting point like normal, but the starbase/gate would be an actual desctructible unit, it can and will attack enemy players that go within range of it.
the object of the game would be to capture the CPs and eventually fly in and destroy your enemy's starbase/gate (or deathmatch or hold CPs for a length of time like the current game modes, but with the added help of your starbase to ward off enemy players from spawn camping, and the outposts as well to lend a helping hand if it turns into a 1v2 or v3)
maybe have the outposts upgrade over time while they're in the control of one side or the other? spitballing here, just throwing out ideas (many inspired by what i've seen of the ESO content that's been announced).
but if something like this was implemented, with some rewards that fit the amount of time a player invests in it (i know it's sacriledge to say, but what about a PvP reputation? instead of power creep gear to make your ship stronger permanently, you get stuff that helps in a PvP session, consumable support ships, minefield launcher consumable, turret consumable, etc., maybe some special costumes or ship skin unlocks)
stuff like that would easily get me into PvP, as it stands currently, i'm not very interested
PVE is actually like 99% of the game as there are only 4 PVP maps + 2 PVP zones compared to the rest of the game.
A ranking system would need to be implemented to even things out for new players I believe Tyler Durden PVP does this already, but there is a HUGE gap between someone who has PVP'd for awhile and a new player, which is not a bad thing as veteran players have honed their skills, but a beginners pvp area with new rewards may draw new players to try it.
PVP will always be a minority as most players use the game to relax and be Kirk/Spock, etc not log in specifically to challenge other players to a deathmatch. A lot of the Zone chat in Kerr'rat for instance is very abrasive, which can make most players not even bother especially if they just play the game to relax and have fun which most seem to do.
That said opening up the foundry to create new PVP maps is an excellent idea , but has been mentioned many times before with only minor lip service given by the Dev team just browsing through the PVP subforum daily I've noticed that a higher number of veteran players have mentioned that STO is no longer their primary game as they are tired of waiting for improvements.
In the end STO is a casual players game, players wanting a more hardcore PVP experience will be forced to look elsewhere as the time invested is proportional to the number of players doing the content. there are more KDF players than PVP players and the KDF faction can't get anything substantial added until recently either unfortunately.
It's really simple:
PvEers don't want the Devs to waste time working on PvP instead of new content. Especially since only like 1% of the population even plays PvP.
the foundry is basically a stripped down "user-friendly-ised" version of their own "tools" software.
classically pvp map creation software for FPSs and the like is basically the same thing.
but it would require a lot of leg work first...including the creation of (hopefully mutiple) basic pvp game type templates...and it would probably require some form of vetting system which in the classic FPS map creation context is handled by site/player review and individual server mods/admins...possibly conducted on tribble ?...because not every map created could be readily dropped in to the map rotation...systemically you'd have to have some form of quality vetting (or possibly competitions ?) sitting in line before general population within the game were exposed to the maps...just for the sake of "quality control" you understand...
on a side note i have no doubt some "amateur" map designers could come with a better design for "the city" than currently exists...
I agree its a bit of work, but along with a persistent stat system i think these two mechanisms create a path to a healthy PvP community in STO.
The point I'm trying to make is I'm only asking for two mechanisms, albeit both new.
I believe that the interplay between them will create the sort of PvP experience that will satisfy far more than the small percentage who indulge now.
I also believe it will give the existing PvP community the tools they desire to create the experience they yearn for.
Think of it as a last hurrah for PVP in STO.
Two mechanisms, representing a chunk of dev time but far from equal with a seasons worth, that may invogorate PvP. In a sense they complete the existing PvP structure.
If these dont work, nothing will.
And I do think a healthy PvP experience is worth the gamble of this amount of dev time.
Some sort of ranking system to keep good PvPers playing good PvPers and let newbs (me) fight other newbs.
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It never happened and at this point is unlikely to happen.
Oh it could happen still if the dev team were to devote the time and effort to it. But its a risky concept for a modern MMO. PvE is what brings in the most money in the short term, and the short term is what rules the industry. And not just THIS industry! There are only a bare handfull of game development teams that think more then 2 years ahead in MMO development. Just the shear amount of work involved tears at any mind set that would permit it.
To put it in more basic terms, its a sales job. You want to sell the product to as many customers as possible to maximize profits.. This is why the Klingon faction gets so little attention. It's not about the game.. it's about money, and job security. It's about resources and where to put them to get the most bang for the buck.
As a "gamer" and a trek fan, it displeases me. I'd prefer the depth and the quality of a good solid "persistant" PvEvP war in the trek universe (which isn't quite trek, but does make for good game!). My experience with the SFC series says it most certainly can be done, and STO doesn't have a fraction of the tactical feel of those titles (And I even include SFC-III in that even though it was a radical departure from the previous titles and has more in common with STO as far as ship combat goes then the previous SFC titles)
The SFC series was a tactical game of starship combat first, and later developed into a PvEvP game with the addition of the leterally tacked on dynaverse multiplayer module. But SFC required it player to pay attention to manuver, and the tactics of how you deployed your weapons systems aboard a ship. There were particularities in weapons arcs, synergiees between systems,..much more then I could begin to explain and still keep this post short. STO is definatly not SFC, and at this point never can be. There hasn't been a starship combat game since with even half the tactical depth of SFC, and its unlikely we'll ever see a game like it again. It was not a button masher. And button mashers sell. Even EvE is a button masher in comparison in spite of having a much greater tactical, operational, and stratigic depth to it then STO is possibly capable of.
Current PvP for the majority of MMO's, STO included is "arena" PvP fighting for prizes, and gaming for goodies. Going in you have a pretty good idea of what the other side can do, and what they can manage. Once you know the combat system there aren't a whole lot of surprises. And this, unfortunatly makes STO a poor candidate for what I consider real PvP. Perhapes if the AI that ran NPC ships were "smarter" it might make a difference. BUt just like other MMO's regardless of the genre out there, STO's NPC's have to cheat to be a real challange. They have to have more hit points, special attacks, etc. We end up doing a "saftey dance" in a starship yet thats exactly what we as players in the STF's have to do all the time. Its a puzzle, not a fight.
Wave your magic tech wand to win. Throw money at your tech wand to make it a bigger, badder tech wand to make winning easier.
Make a REAL mode pve version of STO, where death is permanant.
What if an away team member dies ona a mission and thats it, they are gone? What if you as a player dies in an away mission and thats it, time to roll up a new toon? What happens when you really can not only fail a mission, but have the results be permanant for that character?
STO is not trek. There are no consequeces. Making a bad decision that costs your the lives of your crew and your ship isn't going to get you a virtual courts martial. It isn't going to cost you promotion. Your not going to be demoted to being on someone elses away team. STO is pure fantasy in scifi dressing.
And thats the way of it. It's what sells. It's why everyone is an admiral, even though admirals shouldn't be commanding a single ship but fleets of ships or performing actions that support eh fleet in ligistics, intellegence, procurement, R&D etc etc etc and so forth.
If you want real PvP in the trek universe that do a google search for the word "Dynaverse 2" and go reintroduce yourself, or introduce yourself for the first time to Starfleet Command-II. It just so happens its still around. Not only is it unlikely to ever happen in STO because there is no money in it, but its just not a very good game for it to happen in. To many "magic wands" and to much luck involved.
Khemaraa sends.
A load of bad ideas that only make a game more frustrating. There is a reason MMOs did away with a lot of frustrating features.
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