Really ? I am reading this as someone complaining that endgame gear is now too cheap and easy to get compared to before, and endgame gear has become common gear that everyone has and there is no choice on gear since it is better than everything else that exists.
I am not against the existence of fleet consoles, or a player economy. We do need more things to do with EC now besides buying keys and lobi ships though.
Always funny to read, when ppl complaining that they lost a way to sell overpriced stuff on the exchange.
Imo the mk 12 purple consoles were never worth what ppl claimed for it. Not that it would make any differnece in pve anyways. It only has a bit of an impact in pvp, but even there it isn?t really big. But well to be honest, if there are enough people willing to pay such high prices, why not exploiting them as long as it works?
Besides the power creep we have in sto i think it is a good thing that you can get high end gear quite easy.
And since there are enough fleets that are willing to give free invites to there holdings, even small fleets can get the stuff quite fast.
So, in total i guess more people will benefit from it then (greedy) ppl will "suffer" from the fact that they can?t sell consoles at such high prices anymore.
Which makes me kinda smile, to be honest.
As a sidenote to those who were pointing out that all the drops that were top of the line before are going into the vendor. The same happens with all the drops that aren`t the top already. I mean in every Game, anything elese then the top items are getting sold.
Sometimes on the exchanges, if they are good enough to keep them until oyu have the top stuff, but most times to the vendor. All it does is adding some more items to the "put it into the vendor" list. Nothing more.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
So, in total i guess more people will benefit from it then (greedy) ppl will "suffer" from the fact that they can?t sell consoles at such high prices anymore.
I don't make my ec from consoles (too much of a hassle) but *eyeroll* have you ever considered the people who like these new consoles are actually the 'greedy' people who want better consoles cheaper? It's the greed of the majority winning out over the greed of the minority.
Would it be greedy for people to want lets say...toothpaste for 10 dollars, while a minority sells it only for 10 thousand dollars?
Toothpaste is not a "required to live" product either, but it is something a lot of people need.
So these fleet tac consoles are now fixing an exploit opportunity with tac consoles.
And of course said people are now whining on forums about it, because their cash cown has been taken.
They even post funny posts about the costs of making all these consoles. Which "grand cost" is around 10k EC or so with the Gamma commodities mission.
All else you can get for free in game. If you were buying it, you were doing it wrong, and transferring the costs of your bad business scheme onto the buyers like any business does.
Imagine a boat building business.
One company, lest call it Cunning, sells boats that costs them 500 dollars to make.
Another one, Company Derp, buys boats at 500.000 dollar prices and than sells them.
If people are stupid enough to buy at Derp prices, the Cunning one will raise its prices too.
And when people say their boats are overpriced, they will point out to Derp and how he spent all his money on things he could have gotten for cheaper, citing those are all Necessary costs.
But here is the big truth. They arent. But they are a good whine excuse.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I don't make my ec from consoles (too much of a hassle) but *eyeroll* have you ever considered the people who like these new consoles are actually the 'greedy' people who want better consoles cheaper? It's the greed of the majority winning out over the greed of the minority.
It is more the point that ppl want to get stuff for a "reasonable price". Ofc the definition what a reasonable price is, depends on the point of view. But the current prices for certain very rare tac consoles are for sure not reasonable.
There is a difference between expensive and way overpriced. But as i already stated, as long as there are enough ppl who are willing to pay it, there is no reason not to exploit it.
On the other hand there is no real argument to complain if you can get better items , more or less cheap elsewhere.
'And the ppl who are complaining now cause they paid so much for it and the new consoles are better, nobody forced them.
It is like buying the best graphiccard which is is just a bit faster then the next slower one but cost 2 or 3 times the price. The chance is high that shortly after you bought it, there will be one that is faster and cheaper.
Same happens in a mmo, you have always to take in account that your items you jsut bought for a high price might be obsolete mit the next update.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
It is more the point that ppl want to get stuff for a "reasonable price". Ofc the definition what a reasonable price is, depends on the point of view. But the current prices for certain very rare tac consoles are for sure not reasonable.
There is a difference between expensive and way overpriced. But as i already stated, as long as there are enough ppl who are willing to pay it, there is no reason not to exploit it.
On the other hand there is no real argument to complain if you can get better items , more or less cheap elsewhere.
'And the ppl who are complaining now cause they paid so much for it and the new consoles are better, nobody forced them.
It is like buying the best graphiccard which is is just a bit faster then the next slower one but cost 2 or 3 times the price. The chance is high that shortly after you bought it, there will be one that is faster and cheaper.
Same happens in a mmo, you have always to take in account that your items you jsut bought for a high price might be obsolete mit the next update.
That's where we disagree. Imo the price for the old consoles was perfectly reasonable given the investment required, if prices were truly unreasonable more people would've moved into the market and undercut to take advantage of the profit involved. As another example, imagine I tried to control the white doff market by fixing prices at 500k each and buying every doff listed below that price. The demand is there, but it'd never work because white doffs are so easy to generate I'd be undercut like silly. Now compare it to the console market. If it was so easy to make millions crafting them, then more people should've started crafting them to make the easy millions, leading to lower prices as supply started to outstrip demand and people started undercutting. The high prices only happen because demand and supply are at equilibrium at that price point. Of course, what one feels about their subjective worth is an entirely different matter altogether.
Please note I'm not in any way saying the new consoles shouldn't be introduced, like I said I make my ec from other sources (with much lower investment requirements and higher profit margins than consoles!) and being in an active fleet stand to gain as much as everyone else. I'm just appalled by the fundamental ignorance of economics and double standards I'm seeing. Let's not pretend there's anything going on here other than greed at getting something that before the new season was much harder to obtain versus greed at trying to maintain a viable source of income.
Am I allowed to think that the prices for consoles on the exchange weren't too high and the price of fleet consoles is not too low? If anything, Mk XII fleet consoles are overpriced.
Am I allowed to think that the prices for consoles on the exchange weren't too high and the price of fleet consoles is not too low? If anything, Mk XII fleet consoles are overpriced.
Easily. The prices on the exchange are only a function of the difficulty cryptic set originally on crafting the consoles. The reality is it's a digital item so any supply issues is completely artificial, in theory nothing stops cryptic from putting in a vendor giving these away for free. Now that they have added said vendor, you're also free to think the vendor price is too high compared to how you subjectively view their worth
Majority couldn't afford the old TAC consoles but can now likely afford the new fleet ones and as others have pointed out, it is entirely possible to manufacture those consoles without paying the amount many of those crafters do that they argue should raise the price they set. I even made a couple myself once for free and just kept them. Its not that difficult just time consuming.
Yes. People say they invested this much money in it.
If they did, they were stupid.
What investements it is, you could get it for free by doing the related doff missions. EDIT : corrected math.
The Real investment required was the Ec needed for Gamma quadrant commodities, which was around.... 6000 EC? 10000ec?
Edit: You need 3 jevonite and 3 lockets. Both missions costs 2000k ec. That's 4.000, not 10.000
Even if we say you only get a tac console out of every 3rd one (consoles come in eng, tac and sci flavour), and every 10th tac console is purple (With a 10% crit chance) , that's still 1 Mark XII purple tac for 30 DOff missions done.
30X10.000 is 300.000 . That's your investment. Now...lets say you want profit, you say you want ten times as much profit as you invested in it.
Edit: With the new cost, that's 30X4000=120000 Ec
That's 3.300.000 EC. Lets make it 3.500.000 for greed. You still get more then ten times more than you invested in it, but lets note that the exchange price is TEN times this.
Edit: With the new cost, even 1,2 mil EC is a ten times profit for the seller.
These exploiters ask a Hundred times more for the console than it takes to make it, and they call it fair and not expensive nor overpriced.
I smell a lie there, a big stinking one.
Now, if an exploiter was DUMB enough to buy all the mats and doffs off the exchange instead of getting them through the doff system , than it was his own dumbness.
Maybe he even bought a console for 35 million and sells it for 36 million, getting 1 million profit. Yeah his investment on it is big this time, but its his own fault.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
That's where we disagree. Imo the price for the old consoles was perfectly reasonable given the investment required, if prices were truly unreasonable more people would've moved into the market and undercut to take advantage of the profit involved. As another example, imagine I tried to control the white doff market by fixing prices at 500k each and buying every doff listed below that price. The demand is there, but it'd never work because white doffs are so easy to generate I'd be undercut like silly. Now compare it to the console market. If it was so easy to make millions crafting them, then more people should've started crafting them to make the easy millions, leading to lower prices as supply started to outstrip demand and people started undercutting. The high prices only happen because demand and supply are at equilibrium at that price point. Of course, what one feels about their subjective worth is an entirely different matter altogether.
Please note I'm not in any way saying the new consoles shouldn't be introduced, like I said I make my ec from other sources (with much lower investment requirements and higher profit margins than consoles!) and being in an active fleet stand to gain as much as everyone else. I'm just appalled by the fundamental ignorance of economics and double standards I'm seeing. Let's not pretend there's anything going on here other than greed at getting something that before the new season was much harder to obtain versus greed at trying to maintain a viable source of income.
The investment, was/is also partly due to the prices you have to pay for the artefacts, if you don?t get them with doff missions. And yeah it wouldn't work with white doffs, but with purple it does. That you can do it only with things that are not to easy to get is logical, since ppl can get it to fast to create a high price market for it. On the other hand if you use purple doffs it works, at least on certain ones. That still doesn?t make the price for the consoles reasonable.
I haven`t crafting them also and i never bought one, cause as i said already in my opinion the price is not reasonable. Reasonable in terms of what you get for your money. Which is the reason i never bought one. I more used the system and sold artefacts, since hte chance of getting a useful console aren`t that high. In general it is ppls fault if they buy it for the price, if no one would buy it, prices would go down.
In general i would prefer a system, where those things are bound on pickup instead on equip, but with the option to choose what you craft, instead of crafting it by chance.
I am not a fan of stuff that depends luck, especially not when crafting anything.
And btw. game economics are only artificial in most cases. So it is not really like the free market. It only looks like the free market. I mean they also could have changed the crafting result chances, or making the doff missions for the artefacts appear more often.
The effect would be the same. And i am pretty sure they are more happy if you sell Keys to get ec instead of selling consoles.
The difference is just, that ppl who probably never would have bought a high price console on the exchange will now spend tons of resources for the new fleet holding, which will make some money for cryptic/pwe. Not that i mind, this is a business after all.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
The investment, was/is also partly due to the prices you have to pay for the artefacts, if you don?t get them with doff missions. And yeah it wouldn't work with white doffs, but with purple it does. That you can do it only with things that are not to easy to get is logical, since ppl can get it to fast to create a high price market for it. On the other hand if you use purple doffs it works, at least on certain ones. That still doesn?t make the price for the consoles reasonable.
I haven`t crafting them also and i never bought one, cause as i said already in my opinion the price is not reasonable. Reasonable in terms of what you get for your money. Which is the reason i never bought one. I more used the system and sold artefacts, since hte chance of getting a useful console aren`t that high. In general it is ppls fault if they buy it for the price, if no one would buy it, prices would go down.
In general i would prefer a system, where those things are bound on pickup instead on equip, but with the option to choose what you craft, instead of crafting it by chance.
I am not a fan of stuff that depends luck, especially not when crafting anything.
And btw. game economics are only artificial in most cases. So it is not really like the free market. It only looks like the free market. I mean they also could have changed the crafting result chances, or making the doff missions for the artefacts appear more often.
The effect would be the same. And i am pretty sure they are more happy if you sell Keys to get ec instead of selling consoles.
The difference is just, that ppl who probably never would have bought a high price console on the exchange will now spend tons of resources for the new fleet holding, which will make some money for cryptic/pwe. Not that i mind, this is a business after all.
Yeah, I agree that crafting should not be based on luck. Maybe choosing what console you craft would be better. Like mission, craft Phaser relay console.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Oh, I did the console crafting thing. I "invested" in it and made a lot of EC from selling the good ones. And as soon as I saw tac consoles in a fleet holding, I sold my crafting doffs, sold my stacks of unused artifacts, sold big stacks of shapeshifting lockets and jevonite I had built up.
You'll never hear a complaint about it from me. The game changes and you adapt and move on.
Yes. People say they invested this much money in it.
If they did, they were stupid.
What investements it is, you could get it for free by doing the related doff missions. EDIT : corrected math.
The Real investment required was the Ec needed for Gamma quadrant commodities, which was around.... 6000 EC? 10000ec?
Edit: You need 3 jevonite and 3 lockets. Both missions costs 2000k ec. That's 4.000, not 10.000
Even if we say you only get a tac console out of every 3rd one (consoles come in eng, tac and sci flavour), and every 10th tac console is purple (With a 10% crit chance) , that's still 1 Mark XII purple tac for 30 DOff missions done.
30X10.000 is 300.000 . That's your investment. Now...lets say you want profit, you say you want ten times as much profit as you invested in it.
Edit: With the new cost, that's 30X4000=120000 Ec
That's 3.300.000 EC. Lets make it 3.500.000 for greed. You still get more then ten times more than you invested in it, but lets note that the exchange price is TEN times this.
Edit: With the new cost, even 1,2 mil EC is a ten times profit for the seller.
These exploiters ask a Hundred times more for the console than it takes to make it, and they call it fair and not expensive nor overpriced.
I smell a lie there, a big stinking one.
Now, if an exploiter was DUMB enough to buy all the mats and doffs off the exchange instead of getting them through the doff system , than it was his own dumbness.
Maybe he even bought a console for 35 million and sells it for 36 million, getting 1 million profit. Yeah his investment on it is big this time, but its his own fault.
And this is what I mean by a fundamental ignorance of economics. If it was so easy to turn a 300k investment into 30 million, why isn't everyone doing it? Why aren't YOU doing it and selling it for the 10 times profit price you think it should be at instead of complaining how they're overpriced? Simple, because setting up the doffs and playing the console lottery is a barrier to entry that keeps people out and demand outstripping supply. Admit it, you just can't stand the fact that people are making 30+ mil a transaction in this game
Anyway, I don't care about the console market. I've never crafted them either, never bought them, and look forward to buying the new fleet consoles. Yes the consoles are expensive, yes I agree they're subjectively not worth their exchange prices, but all this griping about the free market is as ridiculous as the griping about the introduction of the fleet consoles.
They can be taken freely yes, but there is a huge opportunity cost in doing so, as doffingcomrade posted earlier
The only opportunity costs for creating such consoles is simply time and how good your doff's are, but pretty much all of that can be purchased at little to no cost if you are willing to put in the time to gain everything needed.
Most of my console crafting experience was hoping for a good purple to sell so I could by a set of blue Mk XII tac consoles to actually use. One phaser relay or disruptor coil could equip a couple of alts with "good enough" tac consoles.
Now with the Spire holding I'll be able to get Mk XII purple (ultra-rare, even!) tac consoles I can actually use. And that's very much worth the loss of a modest source of income.
The only opportunity costs for creating such consoles is simply time and how good your doff's are, but pretty much all of that can be purchased at little to no cost if you are willing to put in the time to gain everything needed.
I do not think you understand what the term even means. The opportunity cost of using the powered artifact for crafting is the money you would have gained from selling it. If you take a powered artifact worth ~800K and produce a worthless console out of it, you've lost 800K on the deal. Since only 6/42 types of console are valuable, and there's only approximately 25% or so chance of Purpality, this means that 96.5% of the time, you lose your money.
And this is what I mean by a fundamental ignorance of economics. If it was so easy to turn a 300k investment into 30 million, why isn't everyone doing it? Why aren't YOU doing it and selling it for the 10 times profit price you think it should be at instead of complaining how they're overpriced? Simple, because setting up the doffs and playing the console lottery is a barrier to entry that keeps people out and demand outstripping supply. Admit it, you just can't stand the fact that people are making 30+ mil a transaction in this game
Anyway, I don't care about the console market. I've never crafted them either, never bought them, and look forward to buying the new fleet consoles. Yes the consoles are expensive, yes I agree they're subjectively not worth their exchange prices, but all this griping about the free market is as ridiculous as the griping about the introduction of the fleet consoles.
Precisely.
Because it was boring, and I was not greedy enough to spend the like 10 minutes a day I would have had to with it.
I tried it, got a mark XII purple quantum console, equipped it and have been using it happily ever since with fleet quantum torps.
I do admit I am a bit apalled that people are actually dumb enough to pay that much for a like... 2-3% increase.
I would say they deserved to loos that money, but I really dont like exploitation.
Also, opportunity cost is not real money. Its just a possible means of other transactions that are by no means certain.
As for the tac consoles, 50k fleet credits are not that easy for the average player to get.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
It takes long enough to get your rep up high enough to even buy the consoles. I don't think increasing the price is a good idea. Not all of us have all day to reactivate the rep system every hour on the hour, and I certainly don't have time to get on every day and play. And now you want to make it take even longer to do. No. Leave the prices as they are.
I do not think you understand what the term even means. The opportunity cost of using the powered artifact for crafting is the money you would have gained from selling it. If you take a powered artifact worth ~800K and produce a worthless console out of it, you've lost 800K on the deal. Since only 6/42 types of console are valuable, and there's only approximately 25% or so chance of Purpality, this means that 96.5% of the time, you lose your money.
So your point is merely greed, despite what people try and charge for the artifact, you can obtain them freely. No console is worthless as they can be sold either by exchange or vendor, so despite you didn't get what you wanted it still cost nothing for a bit of something. To say because you crafted something of what you may define as worthless compared to the over inflated artifact value is simply saying you were greedy and now you didn't get your greedy moneys worth.
My post will get censored if I say exactly what I want to the OP ... so the cleaned up version.
Hip hip hoorah that access to MK XII Tac Consoles will no longer be controlled by greedy merchants! Hip hip hoorah that the playing field in PvP can be leveled and the only excuse for not having a full MK XII Rep and Fleet gear equipped ship is "I don't feel like taking the time to EARN it!"
I truly look forward to the day when everyone has everything and style and skill win the day!
It takes long enough to get your rep up high enough to even buy the consoles.
The consoles are not part of the rep system and you do not need to do anything to unlock them. You just go to a fleet store (not necessarily even yours) and buy them.
So your point is merely greed, despite what people try and charge for the artifact, you can obtain them freely.
I don't really think you understand what that word even means. I know you probably think it's funny to throw that word around like you somehow understand half of the concepts involved, but ultimately it just makes you sound like a poo-flinging monkey. Try and actually hold a rational discussion without immediately accusing everyone of being "greedy", as if you somehow even know what that means.
No console is worthless as they can be sold either by exchange or vendor, so despite you didn't get what you wanted it still cost nothing for a bit of something.
Consoles have extremely poor vendortrash value, being worth considerably less than far more common ship components. Values below that threshold can basically be defined as "worthless" unless you can produce such items in prodigious quantity.
To say because you crafted something of what you may define as worthless compared to the over inflated artifact value
When you consider the amount of hassle involved in acquiring the artifact, you'll realize that just by pursuing this, someone is eating a significant cost in time that they could be spending on something useful. To acquire an artifact requires that you hunt down a pair of randomly occurring missions in space to acquire the input materials (Jevonite and SSL) to then attempt to hunt down ANOTHER randomly occurring mission in space. Since all of these things occur at the most otherwise godforsaken and useless places in the game, absolutely no useful work gets done while pursuing this. Having thus acquired the artifact, you then need to hunt down every particle trace in precise, perfectly balanced quantities: Any overflow is wasted as you need one of each. Fortunately, at least particle trace hunting missions aren't too difficult to come by. At that point, you can power and craft your....vendortrash.
Frankly, unless a reasonable compensation is generated at some point for even bothering with this nonsense, it's a complete waste of time. Have you ever actually tried this? This is a LOT of time wasted on something just to acquire a piece of vendortrash. To say that someone who does not simply essentially GIVE these results to you for practically nothing is being "greedy" is simply idiocy.
When you consider the amount of hassle involved in acquiring the artifact, you'll realize that just by pursuing this, someone is eating a significant cost in time that they could be spending on something useful. To acquire an artifact requires that you hunt down a pair of randomly occurring missions in space to acquire the input materials (Jevonite and SSL) to then attempt to hunt down ANOTHER randomly occurring mission in space. Since all of these things occur at the most otherwise godforsaken and useless places in the game, absolutely no useful work gets done while pursuing this. Having thus acquired the artifact, you then need to hunt down every particle trace in precise, perfectly balanced quantities: Any overflow is wasted as you need one of each. Fortunately, at least particle trace hunting missions aren't too difficult to come by. At that point, you can power and craft your....vendortrash.
And I have to torpedo your aguments yet again. All of those missions are regulars in Beta ursae Sector.
Overflow of particles is not wasted. You can sell them or use them in a second mission.
So ALL you invest is some time. That is the question, does this 10-30 minutes of your time worth the hassle?
That depends on how lazy and how greedy you are.
But I already analyzed the whole situation.
A 1-2 million price would return all your monetary investement more then ten fold.
THAT involves what you spent on the consoles you could not sell.
That actually says that you could not sell any of the other consoles, even if they were mark XII sci and eng. Which is false, if nothing else for the fact that people who dont have a large fleet would still buy such a console as a Mark XII purple Monotanium.
Most real life merchants would be satisfied with getting ten times more than the cost of their product.
So saying that 30mil and such prices were not overpriced is a blatant lie.
You are trying to justify it with "But its natural to ask as much as you can get for it". Oh yes it is. It is natural and very greedy.
Such people do exist in life. They usually exploit natural disasters and sell supplies when they are in the most demand. Like selling medicine for gold during a war and such.
But free market means that sometimes there is concurency. And any smart buyer buys from the vendor that has the more reasonable prices.
So are people defending their right to charge as much as they can as just and fair, meanwhile bemoaning that people would get consoles cheaper, calling *that* greedy?
That deserves a medal in hypocrisy.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
And I have to torpedo your aguments yet again. All of those missions are regulars in Beta ursae Sector.
Overflow of particles is not wasted. You can sell them or use them in a second mission.
So ALL you invest is some time. That is the question, does this 10-30 minutes of your time worth the hassle?
That depends on how lazy and how greedy you are.
But I already analyzed the whole situation.
A 1-2 million price would return all your monetary investement more then ten fold.
THAT involves what you spent on the consoles you could not sell.
That actually says that you could not sell any of the other consoles, even if they were mark XII sci and eng. Which is false, if nothing else for the fact that people who dont have a large fleet would still buy such a console as a Mark XII purple Monotanium.
Most real life merchants would be satisfied with getting ten times more than the cost of their product.
So saying that 30mil and such prices were not overpriced is a blatant lie.
You are trying to justify it with "But its natural to ask as much as you can get for it". Oh yes it is. It is natural and very greedy.
Such people do exist in life. They usually exploit natural disasters and sell supplies when they are in the most demand. Like selling medicine for gold during a war and such.
But free market means that sometimes there is concurency. And any smart buyer buys from the vendor that has the more reasonable prices.
So are people defending their right to charge as much as they can as just and fair, meanwhile bemoaning that people would get consoles cheaper, calling *that* greedy?
That deserves a medal in hypocrisy.
Ive seen a lot of posts on this forum I would consider to be cutting and blunt and getting right down to it.
This one has got to be the most "cut through the TRIBBLE and tell it like it really is" that I have ever seen.
+9001 for the truth itself right here.
The simple fact is that the 30 million pricetag was a complete price fixing scheme. There are not many suppliers on a regular basis, so all of the consoles were being watched like hawks. When a lower priced one was put up (yes I tested this) a certain individual or three would pick it up and relist it at the higher price.
A few rich people that had the lock on production were ensuring their monopoly, the dark side of "free market" economics. You never could compete, you just supplied the monopolizers with free profit yourself.
No one ever "got lucky" really and purchased a 24 million EC one to use it, they simply relisted at the monopoly price, thus artificially maintaining it. In both tests I did it was the very same person on two different days entirely.
That very person has posted in this thread, btw. I naturally cannot name them, but as expected they are one of the people hotly defending the status quo.
That is the reason I said what I did earlier in the thread. The real issue at hand here is that a certain couple/few people have lost their ability to control a market. Boo hoo.
What is even more hilarious about the whole thing, is that these people probably dont even farm the consoles them selves, they just happen to be highly into watching the exchange and playing the market knowing the suppliers were slow on new product and the demand was at a rate where they could try to gate sales. Not a bad practice perhaps, but it sure caused a load of butthurt when their ability to ply it was stopped by a new mechanic.
At the end of the day, the real suppliers (like me, on a small scale) had no choice but to list higher, since listing lower just had our products gobbled up and relisted by someone else all of the time.
I never once put up a console and believed it would be bought by Joe Escort Pilot to put on his ship, I knew full well a certain individual or two or three would be middlemanning everything.
At the end of the day, any console I sell is going to make me a profit. Even the really crummy ones (right click discard is still pure profit), since everything I use to fuel the doff missions I got from a doff mission. Once in a while ive gotten really lucky. Oh well? Its not like im losing anything at all with the change.
Oh and I am going to address the "hassle factor" real quick. It takes exactly 45 seconds for me to start the missions on my ship once NADORC has yielded an artifact. Ive stockpiled so many traces and commodities in my bank (just from daily doffing and sitting the nebulas during particle happy hour) that I could run the particle infusion and console steps for over three months without every doing the earlier steps again.
I just dont bother doing them every day. It is hassle free that way, and even if I did do it at maximum speed it would be about as much hassle as tagging fricken Epohhs.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
The folks directly above me have it very very right.
I already saved up almost enough to get three (thats right) Anitproton conoles for one ship, AND two Polaron ones for my next build. I might even by the time my Fellt is to that level have enough to do a Plasma build too.
No muss, No fuss. I get to play how i want under my own terms. I can grind out the things i want.
This is amazing.
So far My newest build in progress has been mostly free through Dyson. With those pleasant little free boxes, it may not be the best when its done but itll be uniform and :eek: fun!
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
So ALL you invest is some time. That is the question, does this 10-30 minutes of your time worth the hassle?
Nope. In fact, even at the present inflated rates, it's a waste of time. Remember, it's 10-30 minutes to do this ONCE. If you actually attempt to extract useful output out of it, you're going to have to run an entire factory of this. Otherwise, you get nothing and the entire exercise was a waste.
A 1-2 million price would return all your monetary investement more then ten fold.
Untrue. An artifact is presently worth 800K. As I mentioned above, the opportunity cost of not selling it is very high, especially when you consider that 96% of the time, you end up with output indistinguishable from nothing at all.
Most real life merchants would be satisfied with getting ten times more than the cost of their product.
Except it's NOT 10x the cost of the product. The value of the material inputs is 800Kish. Any time you get something worth less than that, you've lost money.
Now, keep in mind here: I am NOT really part of the console market. I just dump the artifacts I pick up, because as far as I'm concerned, the actual return on investment even with allegedly inflated values is quite bad. And it's quite bad because, quite frankly, 30M for a console that that you get once in a blue moon, the rest of the time the result being worthless vendortrash, is not worth it. People who make consoles are not generally raking in cash hand over fist. To assert that these prices are somehow due to greed is simply a gross misunderstanding of just how absolutely obnoxious the entire process is and how often the result you get is worthless and probably doesn't even pay for the cost of getting out to that godforsaken wasteland that is the BU area.
The simple fact is that the 30 million pricetag was a complete price fixing scheme. There are not many suppliers on a regular basis, so all of the consoles were being watched like hawks. When a lower priced one was put up (yes I tested this) a certain individual or three would pick it up and relist it at the higher price.
In other words, it's not the easy process you imagine it to be, and very few people can be bothered with something so annoying, unrewarding, and obnoxious.
At the end of the day, the real suppliers (like me, on a small scale) had no choice but to list higher, since listing lower just had our products gobbled up and relisted by someone else all of the time.
Wait, what? You're UNHAPPY that the market rate for your product is better than you expected? Are you insane?
At the end of the day, any console I sell is going to make me a profit. Even the really crummy ones (right click discard is still pure profit), since everything I use to fuel the doff missions I got from a doff mission. Once in a while ive gotten really lucky. Oh well? Its not like im losing anything at all with the change.
Not quite. Discarding a crummy console for a payout pretty much indistinguishable from zero is the total loss of an 800K artifact. Its loss comes out of your networth, and it simply doesn't matter how you got it.
Oh and I am going to address the "hassle factor" real quick. It takes exactly 45 seconds for me to start the missions on my ship once NADORC has yielded an artifact. Ive stockpiled so many traces and commodities in my bank (just from daily doffing and sitting the nebulas during particle happy hour) that I could run the particle infusion and console steps for over three months without every doing the earlier steps again.
You're ignoring the most obnoxious parts of the process, yes. Sure, once you HAVE everything, it seems pretty simple. Consider, though, the effort involved in getting all those stupid traces to begin with. So much clicking. Then consider the effort involved in getting the additional artifacts, the Jevonite, the SSL, etc. And for all this, you produce ONE console...which ends up being worth practically nothing.
You were honestly better off just dumping the artifact outright. Let someone else play the troll lotto.
Now, I don't really produce consoles, I don't buy or sell them for profit on anything approaching a regular basis, and I certainly don't really care about the impending death of this industry, but I know that 30M was, in fact, an entirely reasonable price for those things just looking at it by the numbers. A prodigious number of artifacts are consumed on the market every day...very few of them ever become anything other than vendortrash.
Which is the TRIBBLE-end of known space, devoid of Bank, Mail, or Exchange, Shipyard, or any other useful reason to be there.
I didn't know that DS9 and Bajor had no bank/mail/exchange/ship yard. Thanks for letting me know. I Guess I will have to use a Tuffli to transwarp in and out of there. I hope that ship has those services in the TRIBBLE-end of space where DS9 and Bajor are out-of-commission.
If only there was a transwarp point to a space station in that TRIBBLE-end of space to get me there fast to check there. Hopefully I can find a doff or a warp core that will cut my transwarp cool down to get me back out of there. Oh well it is udderly udderly hopeless. I guess I will just have to settle with slip stream and loose a minute of precious time I will never get back.
Comments
Imo the mk 12 purple consoles were never worth what ppl claimed for it. Not that it would make any differnece in pve anyways. It only has a bit of an impact in pvp, but even there it isn?t really big. But well to be honest, if there are enough people willing to pay such high prices, why not exploiting them as long as it works?
Besides the power creep we have in sto i think it is a good thing that you can get high end gear quite easy.
And since there are enough fleets that are willing to give free invites to there holdings, even small fleets can get the stuff quite fast.
So, in total i guess more people will benefit from it then (greedy) ppl will "suffer" from the fact that they can?t sell consoles at such high prices anymore.
Which makes me kinda smile, to be honest.
As a sidenote to those who were pointing out that all the drops that were top of the line before are going into the vendor. The same happens with all the drops that aren`t the top already. I mean in every Game, anything elese then the top items are getting sold.
Sometimes on the exchanges, if they are good enough to keep them until oyu have the top stuff, but most times to the vendor. All it does is adding some more items to the "put it into the vendor" list. Nothing more.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
I don't make my ec from consoles (too much of a hassle) but *eyeroll* have you ever considered the people who like these new consoles are actually the 'greedy' people who want better consoles cheaper? It's the greed of the majority winning out over the greed of the minority.
Would it be greedy for people to want lets say...toothpaste for 10 dollars, while a minority sells it only for 10 thousand dollars?
Toothpaste is not a "required to live" product either, but it is something a lot of people need.
So these fleet tac consoles are now fixing an exploit opportunity with tac consoles.
And of course said people are now whining on forums about it, because their cash cown has been taken.
They even post funny posts about the costs of making all these consoles. Which "grand cost" is around 10k EC or so with the Gamma commodities mission.
All else you can get for free in game. If you were buying it, you were doing it wrong, and transferring the costs of your bad business scheme onto the buyers like any business does.
Imagine a boat building business.
One company, lest call it Cunning, sells boats that costs them 500 dollars to make.
Another one, Company Derp, buys boats at 500.000 dollar prices and than sells them.
If people are stupid enough to buy at Derp prices, the Cunning one will raise its prices too.
And when people say their boats are overpriced, they will point out to Derp and how he spent all his money on things he could have gotten for cheaper, citing those are all Necessary costs.
But here is the big truth. They arent. But they are a good whine excuse.
It is more the point that ppl want to get stuff for a "reasonable price". Ofc the definition what a reasonable price is, depends on the point of view. But the current prices for certain very rare tac consoles are for sure not reasonable.
There is a difference between expensive and way overpriced. But as i already stated, as long as there are enough ppl who are willing to pay it, there is no reason not to exploit it.
On the other hand there is no real argument to complain if you can get better items , more or less cheap elsewhere.
'And the ppl who are complaining now cause they paid so much for it and the new consoles are better, nobody forced them.
It is like buying the best graphiccard which is is just a bit faster then the next slower one but cost 2 or 3 times the price. The chance is high that shortly after you bought it, there will be one that is faster and cheaper.
Same happens in a mmo, you have always to take in account that your items you jsut bought for a high price might be obsolete mit the next update.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
That's where we disagree. Imo the price for the old consoles was perfectly reasonable given the investment required, if prices were truly unreasonable more people would've moved into the market and undercut to take advantage of the profit involved. As another example, imagine I tried to control the white doff market by fixing prices at 500k each and buying every doff listed below that price. The demand is there, but it'd never work because white doffs are so easy to generate I'd be undercut like silly. Now compare it to the console market. If it was so easy to make millions crafting them, then more people should've started crafting them to make the easy millions, leading to lower prices as supply started to outstrip demand and people started undercutting. The high prices only happen because demand and supply are at equilibrium at that price point. Of course, what one feels about their subjective worth is an entirely different matter altogether.
Please note I'm not in any way saying the new consoles shouldn't be introduced, like I said I make my ec from other sources (with much lower investment requirements and higher profit margins than consoles!) and being in an active fleet stand to gain as much as everyone else. I'm just appalled by the fundamental ignorance of economics and double standards I'm seeing. Let's not pretend there's anything going on here other than greed at getting something that before the new season was much harder to obtain versus greed at trying to maintain a viable source of income.
Easily. The prices on the exchange are only a function of the difficulty cryptic set originally on crafting the consoles. The reality is it's a digital item so any supply issues is completely artificial, in theory nothing stops cryptic from putting in a vendor giving these away for free. Now that they have added said vendor, you're also free to think the vendor price is too high compared to how you subjectively view their worth
If they did, they were stupid.
What investements it is, you could get it for free by doing the related doff missions. EDIT : corrected math.
The Real investment required was the Ec needed for Gamma quadrant commodities, which was around.... 6000 EC? 10000ec?
Edit: You need 3 jevonite and 3 lockets. Both missions costs 2000k ec. That's 4.000, not 10.000
Even if we say you only get a tac console out of every 3rd one (consoles come in eng, tac and sci flavour), and every 10th tac console is purple (With a 10% crit chance) , that's still 1 Mark XII purple tac for 30 DOff missions done.
30X10.000 is 300.000 . That's your investment. Now...lets say you want profit, you say you want ten times as much profit as you invested in it.
Edit: With the new cost, that's 30X4000=120000 Ec
That's 3.300.000 EC. Lets make it 3.500.000 for greed. You still get more then ten times more than you invested in it, but lets note that the exchange price is TEN times this.
Edit: With the new cost, even 1,2 mil EC is a ten times profit for the seller.
These exploiters ask a Hundred times more for the console than it takes to make it, and they call it fair and not expensive nor overpriced.
I smell a lie there, a big stinking one.
Now, if an exploiter was DUMB enough to buy all the mats and doffs off the exchange instead of getting them through the doff system , than it was his own dumbness.
Maybe he even bought a console for 35 million and sells it for 36 million, getting 1 million profit. Yeah his investment on it is big this time, but its his own fault.
The investment, was/is also partly due to the prices you have to pay for the artefacts, if you don?t get them with doff missions. And yeah it wouldn't work with white doffs, but with purple it does. That you can do it only with things that are not to easy to get is logical, since ppl can get it to fast to create a high price market for it. On the other hand if you use purple doffs it works, at least on certain ones. That still doesn?t make the price for the consoles reasonable.
I haven`t crafting them also and i never bought one, cause as i said already in my opinion the price is not reasonable. Reasonable in terms of what you get for your money. Which is the reason i never bought one. I more used the system and sold artefacts, since hte chance of getting a useful console aren`t that high. In general it is ppls fault if they buy it for the price, if no one would buy it, prices would go down.
In general i would prefer a system, where those things are bound on pickup instead on equip, but with the option to choose what you craft, instead of crafting it by chance.
I am not a fan of stuff that depends luck, especially not when crafting anything.
And btw. game economics are only artificial in most cases. So it is not really like the free market. It only looks like the free market. I mean they also could have changed the crafting result chances, or making the doff missions for the artefacts appear more often.
The effect would be the same. And i am pretty sure they are more happy if you sell Keys to get ec instead of selling consoles.
The difference is just, that ppl who probably never would have bought a high price console on the exchange will now spend tons of resources for the new fleet holding, which will make some money for cryptic/pwe. Not that i mind, this is a business after all.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
Yeah, I agree that crafting should not be based on luck. Maybe choosing what console you craft would be better. Like mission, craft Phaser relay console.
You'll never hear a complaint about it from me. The game changes and you adapt and move on.
And this is what I mean by a fundamental ignorance of economics. If it was so easy to turn a 300k investment into 30 million, why isn't everyone doing it? Why aren't YOU doing it and selling it for the 10 times profit price you think it should be at instead of complaining how they're overpriced? Simple, because setting up the doffs and playing the console lottery is a barrier to entry that keeps people out and demand outstripping supply. Admit it, you just can't stand the fact that people are making 30+ mil a transaction in this game
Anyway, I don't care about the console market. I've never crafted them either, never bought them, and look forward to buying the new fleet consoles. Yes the consoles are expensive, yes I agree they're subjectively not worth their exchange prices, but all this griping about the free market is as ridiculous as the griping about the introduction of the fleet consoles.
Precisely.
The only opportunity costs for creating such consoles is simply time and how good your doff's are, but pretty much all of that can be purchased at little to no cost if you are willing to put in the time to gain everything needed.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Now with the Spire holding I'll be able to get Mk XII purple (ultra-rare, even!) tac consoles I can actually use. And that's very much worth the loss of a modest source of income.
Because it was boring, and I was not greedy enough to spend the like 10 minutes a day I would have had to with it.
I tried it, got a mark XII purple quantum console, equipped it and have been using it happily ever since with fleet quantum torps.
I do admit I am a bit apalled that people are actually dumb enough to pay that much for a like... 2-3% increase.
I would say they deserved to loos that money, but I really dont like exploitation.
Also, opportunity cost is not real money. Its just a possible means of other transactions that are by no means certain.
As for the tac consoles, 50k fleet credits are not that easy for the average player to get.
So your point is merely greed, despite what people try and charge for the artifact, you can obtain them freely. No console is worthless as they can be sold either by exchange or vendor, so despite you didn't get what you wanted it still cost nothing for a bit of something. To say because you crafted something of what you may define as worthless compared to the over inflated artifact value is simply saying you were greedy and now you didn't get your greedy moneys worth.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Hip hip hoorah that access to MK XII Tac Consoles will no longer be controlled by greedy merchants! Hip hip hoorah that the playing field in PvP can be leveled and the only excuse for not having a full MK XII Rep and Fleet gear equipped ship is "I don't feel like taking the time to EARN it!"
I truly look forward to the day when everyone has everything and style and skill win the day!
I don't really think you understand what that word even means. I know you probably think it's funny to throw that word around like you somehow understand half of the concepts involved, but ultimately it just makes you sound like a poo-flinging monkey. Try and actually hold a rational discussion without immediately accusing everyone of being "greedy", as if you somehow even know what that means.
Consoles have extremely poor vendortrash value, being worth considerably less than far more common ship components. Values below that threshold can basically be defined as "worthless" unless you can produce such items in prodigious quantity.
When you consider the amount of hassle involved in acquiring the artifact, you'll realize that just by pursuing this, someone is eating a significant cost in time that they could be spending on something useful. To acquire an artifact requires that you hunt down a pair of randomly occurring missions in space to acquire the input materials (Jevonite and SSL) to then attempt to hunt down ANOTHER randomly occurring mission in space. Since all of these things occur at the most otherwise godforsaken and useless places in the game, absolutely no useful work gets done while pursuing this. Having thus acquired the artifact, you then need to hunt down every particle trace in precise, perfectly balanced quantities: Any overflow is wasted as you need one of each. Fortunately, at least particle trace hunting missions aren't too difficult to come by. At that point, you can power and craft your....vendortrash.
Frankly, unless a reasonable compensation is generated at some point for even bothering with this nonsense, it's a complete waste of time. Have you ever actually tried this? This is a LOT of time wasted on something just to acquire a piece of vendortrash. To say that someone who does not simply essentially GIVE these results to you for practically nothing is being "greedy" is simply idiocy.
And I have to torpedo your aguments yet again. All of those missions are regulars in Beta ursae Sector.
Overflow of particles is not wasted. You can sell them or use them in a second mission.
So ALL you invest is some time. That is the question, does this 10-30 minutes of your time worth the hassle?
That depends on how lazy and how greedy you are.
But I already analyzed the whole situation.
A 1-2 million price would return all your monetary investement more then ten fold.
THAT involves what you spent on the consoles you could not sell.
That actually says that you could not sell any of the other consoles, even if they were mark XII sci and eng. Which is false, if nothing else for the fact that people who dont have a large fleet would still buy such a console as a Mark XII purple Monotanium.
Most real life merchants would be satisfied with getting ten times more than the cost of their product.
So saying that 30mil and such prices were not overpriced is a blatant lie.
You are trying to justify it with "But its natural to ask as much as you can get for it". Oh yes it is. It is natural and very greedy.
Such people do exist in life. They usually exploit natural disasters and sell supplies when they are in the most demand. Like selling medicine for gold during a war and such.
But free market means that sometimes there is concurency. And any smart buyer buys from the vendor that has the more reasonable prices.
So are people defending their right to charge as much as they can as just and fair, meanwhile bemoaning that people would get consoles cheaper, calling *that* greedy?
That deserves a medal in hypocrisy.
Ive seen a lot of posts on this forum I would consider to be cutting and blunt and getting right down to it.
This one has got to be the most "cut through the TRIBBLE and tell it like it really is" that I have ever seen.
+9001 for the truth itself right here.
The simple fact is that the 30 million pricetag was a complete price fixing scheme. There are not many suppliers on a regular basis, so all of the consoles were being watched like hawks. When a lower priced one was put up (yes I tested this) a certain individual or three would pick it up and relist it at the higher price.
A few rich people that had the lock on production were ensuring their monopoly, the dark side of "free market" economics. You never could compete, you just supplied the monopolizers with free profit yourself.
No one ever "got lucky" really and purchased a 24 million EC one to use it, they simply relisted at the monopoly price, thus artificially maintaining it. In both tests I did it was the very same person on two different days entirely.
That very person has posted in this thread, btw. I naturally cannot name them, but as expected they are one of the people hotly defending the status quo.
That is the reason I said what I did earlier in the thread. The real issue at hand here is that a certain couple/few people have lost their ability to control a market. Boo hoo.
What is even more hilarious about the whole thing, is that these people probably dont even farm the consoles them selves, they just happen to be highly into watching the exchange and playing the market knowing the suppliers were slow on new product and the demand was at a rate where they could try to gate sales. Not a bad practice perhaps, but it sure caused a load of butthurt when their ability to ply it was stopped by a new mechanic.
At the end of the day, the real suppliers (like me, on a small scale) had no choice but to list higher, since listing lower just had our products gobbled up and relisted by someone else all of the time.
I never once put up a console and believed it would be bought by Joe Escort Pilot to put on his ship, I knew full well a certain individual or two or three would be middlemanning everything.
At the end of the day, any console I sell is going to make me a profit. Even the really crummy ones (right click discard is still pure profit), since everything I use to fuel the doff missions I got from a doff mission. Once in a while ive gotten really lucky. Oh well? Its not like im losing anything at all with the change.
Oh and I am going to address the "hassle factor" real quick. It takes exactly 45 seconds for me to start the missions on my ship once NADORC has yielded an artifact. Ive stockpiled so many traces and commodities in my bank (just from daily doffing and sitting the nebulas during particle happy hour) that I could run the particle infusion and console steps for over three months without every doing the earlier steps again.
I just dont bother doing them every day. It is hassle free that way, and even if I did do it at maximum speed it would be about as much hassle as tagging fricken Epohhs.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I already saved up almost enough to get three (thats right) Anitproton conoles for one ship, AND two Polaron ones for my next build. I might even by the time my Fellt is to that level have enough to do a Plasma build too.
No muss, No fuss. I get to play how i want under my own terms. I can grind out the things i want.
This is amazing.
So far My newest build in progress has been mostly free through Dyson. With those pleasant little free boxes, it may not be the best when its done but itll be uniform and :eek: fun!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sure, but once you're talking about selling them, you're moving into the opportunity cost territory of not selling it all in the first place.
Nope. In fact, even at the present inflated rates, it's a waste of time. Remember, it's 10-30 minutes to do this ONCE. If you actually attempt to extract useful output out of it, you're going to have to run an entire factory of this. Otherwise, you get nothing and the entire exercise was a waste.
Untrue. An artifact is presently worth 800K. As I mentioned above, the opportunity cost of not selling it is very high, especially when you consider that 96% of the time, you end up with output indistinguishable from nothing at all.
Every time you get a console you can't sell, you just lost 800K.
Except it's NOT 10x the cost of the product. The value of the material inputs is 800Kish. Any time you get something worth less than that, you've lost money.
Now, keep in mind here: I am NOT really part of the console market. I just dump the artifacts I pick up, because as far as I'm concerned, the actual return on investment even with allegedly inflated values is quite bad. And it's quite bad because, quite frankly, 30M for a console that that you get once in a blue moon, the rest of the time the result being worthless vendortrash, is not worth it. People who make consoles are not generally raking in cash hand over fist. To assert that these prices are somehow due to greed is simply a gross misunderstanding of just how absolutely obnoxious the entire process is and how often the result you get is worthless and probably doesn't even pay for the cost of getting out to that godforsaken wasteland that is the BU area.
In other words, it's not the easy process you imagine it to be, and very few people can be bothered with something so annoying, unrewarding, and obnoxious.
Wait, what? You're UNHAPPY that the market rate for your product is better than you expected? Are you insane?
Not quite. Discarding a crummy console for a payout pretty much indistinguishable from zero is the total loss of an 800K artifact. Its loss comes out of your networth, and it simply doesn't matter how you got it.
You're ignoring the most obnoxious parts of the process, yes. Sure, once you HAVE everything, it seems pretty simple. Consider, though, the effort involved in getting all those stupid traces to begin with. So much clicking. Then consider the effort involved in getting the additional artifacts, the Jevonite, the SSL, etc. And for all this, you produce ONE console...which ends up being worth practically nothing.
You were honestly better off just dumping the artifact outright. Let someone else play the troll lotto.
Now, I don't really produce consoles, I don't buy or sell them for profit on anything approaching a regular basis, and I certainly don't really care about the impending death of this industry, but I know that 30M was, in fact, an entirely reasonable price for those things just looking at it by the numbers. A prodigious number of artifacts are consumed on the market every day...very few of them ever become anything other than vendortrash.
I didn't know that DS9 and Bajor had no bank/mail/exchange/ship yard. Thanks for letting me know. I Guess I will have to use a Tuffli to transwarp in and out of there. I hope that ship has those services in the TRIBBLE-end of space where DS9 and Bajor are out-of-commission.
If only there was a transwarp point to a space station in that TRIBBLE-end of space to get me there fast to check there. Hopefully I can find a doff or a warp core that will cut my transwarp cool down to get me back out of there. Oh well it is udderly udderly hopeless. I guess I will just have to settle with slip stream and loose a minute of precious time I will never get back.
It is a hassle. Too bad there isn't some kinda doffjob channel and community spreadsheet effort to help me track that and tell me exactly where it is.