I didn't know that DS9 and Bajor had no bank/mail/exchange/ship yard. Thanks for letting me know. I Guess I will have to use a Tuffli to transwarp in and out of there. I hope that ship has those services in the TRIBBLE-end of space where DS9 and Bajor are out-of-commission.
DS9 and Bajor may have those services, but the missions involved aren't to be found there, except for the occasional haggles. I have never heard a NADORC call on Bajor or DS9. For this, you are going to be driving off into the TRIBBLE end of space again.
It is a hassle. Too bad there isn't some kinda doffjob channel and community spreadsheet effort to help me track that and tell me exactly where it is.
This does not magically enable you to BE there in sufficient quantity to make a difference, alas.
Unless you're prepared to deploy a crazy amount of infrastructure in preparation for this, it's simply a major pain in the TRIBBLE. If you HAVE deployed that infrastructure to get you there, you'll quickly find there are better uses for it than chasing this and its associated side missions. That's why those things are 800K: Because they're a pain in the TRIBBLE to put together. Time is money.
So ehm. I can conclude, from this discussion, that the people making and selling the consoles weren't doing it for their enjoyment anyway?
In that case, they'll just find a different means to grind EC's, no worries there.
The people doing it because they enjoyed it will still keep doing it, and sell these consoles too. For reference: check the mk xii purple Neutroniums, just for funsies.
Which is the TRIBBLE-end of known space, devoid of Bank, Mail, or Exchange, Shipyard, or any other useful reason to be there.
Edit: Yeah. As already pointed it, it had TWO hubs (Both Ds9 and Bajor has all of that!) that you could get to with around 30 seconds of load time. And I thought I was lazy!
Sure, but once you're talking about selling them, you're moving into the opportunity cost territory of not selling it all in the first place.
Nope. In fact, even at the present inflated rates, it's a waste of time. Remember, it's 10-30 minutes to do this ONCE. If you actually attempt to extract useful output out of it, you're going to have to run an entire factory of this. Otherwise, you get nothing and the entire exercise was a waste.
Untrue. An artifact is presently worth 800K. As I mentioned above, the opportunity cost of not selling it is very high, especially when you consider that 96% of the time, you end up with output indistinguishable from nothing at all.
Every time you get a console you can't sell, you just lost 800K.
That is a lost opportunity. Not a cost. You seem to confuse opportunity with actual cost. Which are not the same thing.
Going by your logic : If possible opportunity profits were part of the actual production costs, than you could by the same token charge 40mil for the Artifact, because by selling it you loose the opportunity of getting a purple tac console out of it.
Totally ridiculous.
What's next, coal costing thousands of dollars because "We are loosing profit because these coals would be dimonds in a billion years?
Except it's NOT 10x the cost of the product. The value of the material inputs is 800Kish. Any time you get something worth less than that, you've lost money.
If you were too lazy to make the artifact yourself, you were making it too expensive for yourself.
If you want to make metal cutlery, and you get the metal from buying cars and dismantling them instead of getting raw materials, you are doing it wrong.
Now, keep in mind here: I am NOT really part of the console market. I just dump the artifacts I pick up, because as far as I'm concerned, the actual return on investment even with allegedly inflated values is quite bad. And it's quite bad because, quite frankly, 30M for a console that that you get once in a blue moon, the rest of the time the result being worthless vendortrash, is not worth it. People who make consoles are not generally raking in cash hand over fist. To assert that these prices are somehow due to greed is simply a gross misunderstanding of just how absolutely obnoxious the entire process is and how often the result you get is worthless and probably doesn't even pay for the cost of getting out to that godforsaken wasteland that is the BU area.
Again, an untruth. These prices are due to greed, because 10 minutes of investment doing all the duty officer missions and farming the traces for 30mil is still very profitable. It is a slow process, but the pricetag more than justifies waiting a few days.
You would earn much less if you spent that time with a daily foundry farm mission.
In other words, it's not the easy process you imagine it to be, and very few people can be bothered with something so annoying, unrewarding, and obnoxious.
Wait, what? You're UNHAPPY that the market rate for your product is better than you expected? Are you insane?
Not quite. Discarding a crummy console for a payout pretty much indistinguishable from zero is the total loss of an 800K artifact. Its loss comes out of your networth, and it simply doesn't matter how you got it.
Edit: Sigh.... you really do not get it, right? The selling price you get for your raw materials is NOT in your cost, and you cant justify the products price with that.
You're ignoring the most obnoxious parts of the process, yes. Sure, once you HAVE everything, it seems pretty simple. Consider, though, the effort involved in getting all those stupid traces to begin with. So much clicking. Then consider the effort involved in getting the additional artifacts, the Jevonite, the SSL, etc. And for all this, you produce ONE console...which ends up being worth practically nothing.
You were honestly better off just dumping the artifact outright. Let someone else play the troll lotto.
Now, I don't really produce consoles, I don't buy or sell them for profit on anything approaching a regular basis, and I certainly don't really care about the impending death of this industry, but I know that 30M was, in fact, an entirely reasonable price for those things just looking at it by the numbers. A prodigious number of artifacts are consumed on the market every day...very few of them ever become anything other than vendortrash.
I do not believe a word you say. I already did the math earlier.
And I did the math in a way that disregarded consoles that could still be sold, like a mark xii Neutronium.
That still disregards the fact that even mark XI-XII blues can be sold for some money. Not a stellar profit, but still profit.
Since the cost you make is 4000 EC per console, even vendor trashing is around 7-8k . That is still twice as much money as you put in.
And if a certain merchant is too LAZY to get the raw materials you can get for free and buys them off the exchange, than that is simply an inefficient business plan, which does not justify the high prices.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
The consoles are not part of the rep system and you do not need to do anything to unlock them. You just go to a fleet store (not necessarily even yours) and buy them.
I don't really think you understand what that word even means. I know you probably think it's funny to throw that word around like you somehow understand half of the concepts involved, but ultimately it just makes you sound like a poo-flinging monkey. Try and actually hold a rational discussion without immediately accusing everyone of being "greedy", as if you somehow even know what that means.
Consoles have extremely poor vendortrash value, being worth considerably less than far more common ship components. Values below that threshold can basically be defined as "worthless" unless you can produce such items in prodigious quantity.
When you consider the amount of hassle involved in acquiring the artifact, you'll realize that just by pursuing this, someone is eating a significant cost in time that they could be spending on something useful. To acquire an artifact requires that you hunt down a pair of randomly occurring missions in space to acquire the input materials (Jevonite and SSL) to then attempt to hunt down ANOTHER randomly occurring mission in space. Since all of these things occur at the most otherwise godforsaken and useless places in the game, absolutely no useful work gets done while pursuing this. Having thus acquired the artifact, you then need to hunt down every particle trace in precise, perfectly balanced quantities: Any overflow is wasted as you need one of each. Fortunately, at least particle trace hunting missions aren't too difficult to come by. At that point, you can power and craft your....vendortrash.
Frankly, unless a reasonable compensation is generated at some point for even bothering with this nonsense, it's a complete waste of time. Have you ever actually tried this? This is a LOT of time wasted on something just to acquire a piece of vendortrash. To say that someone who does not simply essentially GIVE these results to you for practically nothing is being "greedy" is simply idiocy.
To answer your dumb question, yes I have done it many of times. the artifact mission is either available or it isn't. Takes 5 mins to search for the mission, if it isn't up check the update timer and go do something else till it flips available missions, or are you not bright enough to pay attention to that timer? Oh and all that 5 mins of searching for the mission you can do the doff missions for materials as well along the way! If I craft a console and it isn't what I needed than I vendor it or sell it and still make something from it, considering all it ost me was 5 mins a day tops and no EC's.
To answer your dumb question, yes I have done it many of times. the artifact mission is either available or it isn't. Takes 5 mins to search for the mission, if it isn't up check the update timer and go do something else till it flips available missions, or are you not bright enough to pay attention to that timer? Oh and all that 5 mins of searching for the mission you can do the doff missions for materials as well along the way! If I craft a console and it isn't what I needed than I vendor it or sell it and still make something from it, considering all it ost me was 5 mins a day tops and no EC's.
The lockets and jevonite costs you.... *Gasps* Four thousand ec! I'm agreeing with you, but I have to point out this "terrible" price cost for the sake of completeness.
A minuscule amount of money that you get more than back by selling even a mark X white console.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Going by your logic : If possible opportunity profits were part of the actual production costs, than you could by the same token charge 40mil for the Artifact, because by selling it you loose the opportunity of getting a purple tac console out of it.
Again, an untruth. These prices are due to greed, because 10 minutes of investment doing all the duty officer missions and farming the traces for 30mil is still very profitable. It is a slow process, but the pricetag more than justifies waiting a few days.
You don't get 30M for 10 minutes of investment. You get an artifact for (a lot more than) 10 minutes. An artifact is only a valuable console 3.5% of the time. To produce a valuable console therefore requires an average of about 30 artifacts.
Edit: Sigh.... you really do not get it, right? The selling price you get for your raw materials is NOT in your cost, and you cant justify the products price with that.
Yes, actually you CAN. That is, in fact, a major factor in the cost of an item in real life. The cost of EVERYTHING in real life includes the cost of the materials. If i takes me a ton of iron to make an item that is actually worth LESS than the ton of iron I started with, then I have lost money by doing this, and I should have just sold the iron as scrap. How is it that you do not understand this? Have you ever noticed how when the price of copper goes up, the price of wires also goes up?
Actually, this is a thing. I dunno what the hell they teach you kids in school anymore, but even a toddler understands this.
That is not what it means. Read it.
You don't get 30M for 10 minutes of investment. You get an artifact for (a lot more than) 10 minutes. An artifact is only a valuable console 3.5% of the time. To produce a valuable console therefore requires an average of about 30 artifacts.
Yes, actually you CAN. That is, in fact, a major factor in the cost of an item in real life. The cost of EVERYTHING in real life includes the cost of the materials. If i takes me a ton of iron to make an item that is actually worth LESS than the ton of iron I started with, then I have lost money by doing this, and I should have just sold the iron as scrap. How is it that you do not understand this? Have you ever noticed how when the price of copper goes up, the price of wires also goes up?
Using RL economics in a game is pretty lame, and a clear issue you have P.R.O.F.I.T. written all over your forehead. And saying the cost of iron as compared to your time of a few mins each doff assignment and searching for the artifact and some materials cannot be put together in the same category. Unlike the iron which has a material value, your time is only as valuable as you think it is and not so much to the Dev's. If it wasn't easy to over inflate the cost of the consoles and forced to sell them dirt cheap, than people would stop making them now wouldn't they? Well now that time is finally falling in place, so ask yourself will you continue to make them or give it up and move on?
Ah, yes, let's reject any kind of mathematical or scientific analysis of it as "lame". Just because something is a game doesn't mean these things don't apply.
and a clear issue you have P.R.O.F.I.T. written all over your forehead.
Actually, even during the height of the console making era, pre-Fleet-Consoles, the profit margin was really pretty thin: For all your bother, you could expect to make, on average, less than a million per artifact. We calculated this out. At this point, it's probably closer to a loss.
Unlike the iron which has a material value, your time is only as valuable as you think it is and not so much to the Dev's.
Consoles are not made of "time", they are made of artifacts. An artifact, according to the market value, is ~800K. Since, as you pointed out, most of the actual goods involved in the production of an artifact are not explicitly expensive, most of this cost in labor. This is why a ton of iron is $200, but a car is $10000.
If it wasn't easy to over inflate the cost of the consoles and forced to sell them dirt cheap, than people would stop making them now wouldn't they?
You are arguing my point now. If people stop making consoles because their value has crashed, this explicitly proves my point: That the price tag associated with those valued consoles was actually fair, and that the crash in their value has reduced the activity below the point at which it generates a justifiable return on time and material investment.
Well now that time is finally falling in place, so ask yourself will you continue to make them or give it up and move on?
You seem to think I'm actually a console producer. I'm not arguing this point because I'm somehow defending some livelihood. No, the business I'm in is doing just fine, better than ever, since I sell dilithum and dilithium accessories, and that's precisely what people need to buy these new consoles. It should be obvious to even the most feebleminded simpleton that the XII Purples are now worthless garbage, being that they are completely outclassed by the Fleet consoles. No one in their right mind will pay 30M for that trash in a few weeks. All of this is completely irrelevant to my original point: That pre-Fleet-Consoles, the 30M pricetag was actually completely fair and reasonable given the numbers involved.
Ah, yes, let's reject any kind of mathematical or scientific analysis of it as "lame". Just because something is a game doesn't mean these things don't apply.
Actually, even during the height of the console making era, pre-Fleet-Consoles, the profit margin was really pretty thin: For all your bother, you could expect to make, on average, less than a million per artifact. We calculated this out. At this point, it's probably closer to a loss.
Consoles are not made of "time", they are made of artifacts. An artifact, according to the market value, is ~800K. Since, as you pointed out, most of the actual goods involved in the production of an artifact are not explicitly expensive, most of this cost in labor. This is why a ton of iron is $200, but a car is $10000.
You are arguing my point now. If people stop making consoles because their value has crashed, this explicitly proves my point: That the price tag associated with those valued consoles was actually fair, and that the crash in their value has reduced the activity below the point at which it generates a justifiable return on time and material investment.
You seem to think I'm actually a console producer. I'm not arguing this point because I'm somehow defending some livelihood. No, the business I'm in is doing just fine, better than ever, since I sell dilithum and dilithium accessories, and that's precisely what people need to buy these new consoles. It should be obvious to even the most feebleminded simpleton that the XII Purples are now worthless garbage, being that they are completely outclassed by the Fleet consoles. No one in their right mind will pay 30M for that trash in a few weeks. All of this is completely irrelevant to my original point: That pre-Fleet-Consoles, the 30M pricetag was actually completely fair and reasonable given the numbers involved.
Everything you just described is a greed driven desire to make a PROFIT. You are probably one of those that keep buying my artifacts and making tons of consoles in the hopes of overcharging for them in the end. I use it as an experiment to see how gullible people are to willing pay such a dumb overinflated price on an artifact that costs me a few mins to obtain. If I want to make a console I will for myself or a fleet member, but not to try and make EC's which to me is monopoly money in this game. So if you are one of those greed stricken profiteers than hooray that they finally did away with the need to pay millions for a tac console and balance it out with fleet versions. After all fleet's should have superior gear over loot and crafter items.
EDIT: Oh and as for the $200 a ton in iron, and $10k for a car is because they have RL expenses. Such as employees, materials, overhead, possible loans...etc. In game we have no in game RL expenses like those, what few expenses there are in this game doesn't involve needing to ask 30million for a console just to survive.
1. The VR 12s have been overpriced ridiculously for months if not years. They do not cost 30 million to make and are not rare enough (there are 50 of the polaron flavor on the exchange right now alone, thats rare??) to warrant their price tag. They have been artificially inflated and held at their price level by shortsellers on the exchange that have controlled that market for quite some time.
Is there anyway STO/PWE/Cryptic could get rid of the oversellers...
I know someone in game who was bragging about buying Plasmonic Leetches (the 5 cheapest on the exchange) then he will just relist them for 30% more...
EVERYDAY (he was braggin in zone chat about it)
In the matter of 3 weeks, the Leetch has gone from 6 mil, to just under 16 mil EC
There's gotta be a way....
EX: Anything bought on the exchange cannot be relisted for 5 business days. or something...anything.
Really, give it another 3 weeks, and the leetch will be 30 mil ec. That is economy crippling inflation...
Everything you just described is a greed driven desire to make a PROFIT. You are probably one of those that keep buying my artifacts and making tons of consoles in the hopes of overcharging for them in the end.
You didn't listen to a word I said, did you? I explicitly stated I was not, in fact, a console producer, at least not anything approaching even a semi-regular basis, since I've produced maybe a half-dozen or so, ever.
use it as an experiment to see how gullible people are to willing pay such a dumb overinflated price on an artifact that costs me a few mins to obtain.
So, you're adamantly opposed to the notion of profit, but here you are, hypocritically profiting while inventing a paper-thin excuse to justify your blatantly exploitation of the system yourself? Not that I see anything WRONG with this, but let's call a spade a spade, shall we? And yeah, I do that, too.
So, who's the real greedy profiteer here, hrm? It sure as hell isn't the guy who's running a significant risk of taking a huge loss here. Maybe it might be...the guys who wildly inflate the price of the ARTIFACTS, people like YOU.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. But you seem to believe there is.
If I want to make a console I will for myself or a fleet member, but not to try and make EC's which to me is monopoly money in this game.
All money is Monopoly money, man. Only commodities possessed actually have true value. Everything else is just an illusionary number, often not even paper. This is just as true of real life as it is in-game.
EDIT: Oh and as for the $200 a ton in iron, and $10k for a car is because they have RL expenses. Such as employees, materials, overhead, possible loans...etc. In game we have no in game RL expenses like those, what few expenses there are in this game doesn't involve needing to ask 30million for a console just to survive.
Precisely. Labor costs. It costs money to hire people to assemble that car out of that iron.
So, does that mean if you assemble the car yourself, without any employees, after you mine the iron yourself, you're now a filthy profiteer for selling the car at market value since YOU didn't pay anything to get any of those things? Is that what you're saying?
Because that's absurd.
Now, let's be clear here: I don't care one way or another what happens to the console market. I don't really make money on this. I am not invested in any particular way. What I do know, however, is that given the numbers involved for material costs, having rigorously analyzed the entire production chain, that the 30M pricetag is not an unreasonable or unfair number. Yes, it is grossly overpriced in relation to what these consoles DO, but NOT in relation to what it costs to MAKE these things given how rare they are to get. The SMART move would be NOT TO EVER BUY THESE THINGS. And I didn't. But the simple fact is that there are underlying numbers which govern WHY these things are where they are, and those numbers all add up.
In the matter of 3 weeks, the Leetch has gone from 6 mil, to just under 16 mil EC
Leech is that way because it is easily the most valued console in the game, and the lockbox it comes in has been discontinued. And it hasn't "gone" from anywhere. It's been that way since the end of the Tal Box, about 2 boxes ago. The supply is now near non-existent, but people still want more of them....
It is simple supply and demand, just like what will now happen to the soon-worthless Purple XII Tac Consoles.
Is there anyway STO/PWE/Cryptic could get rid of the oversellers...
I know someone in game who was bragging about buying Plasmonic Leetches (the 5 cheapest on the exchange) then he will just relist them for 30% more...
EVERYDAY (he was braggin in zone chat about it)
In the matter of 3 weeks, the Leetch has gone from 6 mil, to just under 16 mil EC
There's gotta be a way....
EX: Anything bought on the exchange cannot be relisted for 5 business days. or something...anything.
Really, give it another 3 weeks, and the leetch will be 30 mil ec. That is economy crippling inflation...
It is indeed another underlying issue to a player driven "free market"
Like a real world one, if you allow completely free exchange this is the ultimate result in any product. Whoever acquires the most currency in the early going, gains an insurmountable advantage over anyone who gets into the game later.
Without some form of regulation, you get into empire like corporate entities (we call them monopolies) that in turn control every price. It is no longer about supply and demand, it becomes
"I have enough money to buy out anything cheaper and resell it at MY price, and thats too bad because you can only get it from me now MWA HA HA"
Literally.
It doesnt work for the consumer in the real world, and it doesnt work for the consumer in this virtual world.
As much of a small government person as I am, the anti-trust laws are the only thing keeping the largest corporations from literally owning all of us. (another debate entirely as to how effective they really are, however)
What this game needs is something like you described. The inability to relist something you just bought five minutes ago. Or making everything bind on acquire out of the exchange.
You can sell it if you get it out in the field, but the moment you buy it off of the exchange you could never sell it.
I like that idea actually.
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It is simple supply and demand, just like what will now happen to the soon-worthless Purple XII Tac Consoles.
Oh, give us a break. Your logic doesn't explain why purple mk xii Neutroniums still go for 9-10 mil.
These should've been worthless since the introduction of the Mine holding, too, then. I'd say that sort of credits is hardly at vendor trash level. And the tac consoles most likely will stay a tad more expensive than the Neutroniums, as they always have been.
It is indeed another underlying issue to a player driven "free market"
Like a real world one, if you allow completely free exchange this is the ultimate result in any product. Whoever acquires the most currency in the early going, gains an insurmountable advantage over anyone who gets into the game later.
Without some form of regulation, you get into empire like corporate entities (we call them monopolies) that in turn control every price. It is no longer about supply and demand, it becomes
"I have enough money to buy out anything cheaper and resell it at MY price, and thats too bad because you can only get it from me now MWA HA HA"
Literally.
It doesnt work for the consumer in the real world, and it doesnt work for the consumer in this virtual world.
As much of a small government person as I am, the anti-trust laws are the only thing keeping the largest corporations from literally owning all of us. (another debate entirely as to how effective they really are, however)
What this game needs is something like you described. The inability to relist something you just bought five minutes ago. Or making everything bind on acquire out of the exchange.
You can sell it if you get it out in the field, but the moment you buy it off of the exchange you could never sell it.
I like that idea actually.
Agreed. This sounds like a very good mechanic. Monopolies are bad, mkay.
Non fleet consoles will still sell because some people dont like fleets.
But no, opportunity cost is just a dumb idea. It is very stupid.
Imagine if you are, as you say, making cars.
You can either hire miners and get the ore mined for 1000 dollars, or you can buy it from someone else for ... hm... 100.000 dollars.
Now if you are buying the 100k dollar ones instead of mining it for 1k, you are doing it wrong.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
It is greed pure and simple GREED, There is no reason whatsoever that a console with a small bonus of the the "rare" counterpart should cost millions extra. I am glad this is happening perhaps Next they should BIND all crafted items to account after the crafting feature overhaul...yes I went there..:mad:
It is greed pure and simple GREED, There is no reason whatsoever that a console with a small bonus of the the "rare" counterpart should cost millions extra. I am glad this is happening perhaps Next they should BIND all crafted items to account after the crafting feature overhaul...yes I went there..:mad:
Just make sure its to account and not to character, so that I can gear out my alts : )
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Just make sure its to account and not to character, so that I can gear out my alts : )
Indeed...Honestly I think everything but commons should bind to account, exception would of course be reputation items...Fleet items should be available for all characters in the account because they are expensive enough as it is....we already did the grind for the items we should be open to use it as we please.:rolleyes:
Exactly! and another thing, they need to open up a lot more bank slots for us to buy, I am fully unlocked and I got possessions creep going on, I look like a horder of random ultra rare items....And running out ot space as each month go's by..
This entire discussion is moot IMO because over the next couple weeks most likely we will see the first of the new tac consoles hit the proverbial 'market'. Fleet members of those fleets will gain access to them, and those fleets will either start selling access/invites to others, or giving invites through things like NoP Public Service.
Once we do, then we will see what ACTUALLY will happen to tac consoles.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
You can either hire miners and get the ore mined for 1000 dollars, or you can buy it from someone else for ... hm... 100.000 dollars.
Now if you are buying the 100k dollar ones instead of mining it for 1k, you are doing it wrong.
That is not what the term means.
Imagine for a moment that I have a ton of whatzit. It doesn't matter how I got it, I have it now. To keep the example simple, imagine there are precisely two serious things I can do with it: I can make it into a thingummy, which I can then sell for 30K, or I can just straight up sell the whatzit, for 10K. That 10K is my opportunity cost if I choose to make a thingummy out of my whatzit. My ultimate actual profit is actually only 20K, because my opportunity cost for not selling the whatzit is 10K.
The same applies here. If I sell the artifact, I'm guaranteed to get 800K. That's already part of my networth. If I make it into a console, and that console turns out to be worthless vendortrash I can only chuck into the recycler for a measly 10K, I've immediately lost 790K of value.
This is the equivalent of taking 300 lockbox keys, opening 300 boxes, and getting nothing but junk, then moaning about not having gotten a ship and still being broke: I've eaten the opportunity cost of NOT selling those 300 keys, and this cost has pushed the entire thing deeply into the red. I'm still broke, AND I don't have a ship, when if I had sold the keys, I could have had a freaking Bug with keys to spare.
It doesn't matter how I got the keys. I could have bought them with Zen from the Exchange, or scooped them up when someone misplaced a few zeroes for practically free. The end result is the same: I'm out those 300 keys worth of value.
Exactly! and another thing, they need to open up a lot more bank slots for us to buy, I am fully unlocked and I got possessions creep going on, I look like a horder of random ultra rare items....And running out ot space as each month go's by..
Maybe to you, finding an apple on the way home or paying 10 dollars for the same apple is the same...
It is, in fact, exactly the same. The outcome is unchanged: I now have an apple. This apple is, in your example, worth $10, unless you got swindled for it and paid more than market value (which STILL doesn't change anything, you've still got whatever market value is). Regardless, you now possess an apple worth whatever market value is. Your current networth thus includes this apple. If you make a pie out of it, and sell the pie, your networth increases by the sale value of the pie, minus the value of the apple you consumed. If you eat the apple, your networth increases by the value of the resulting poo (nothing), minus the value of the apple you consumed.
The moral of the story is simple: Don't eat apples.
You didn't listen to a word I said, did you? I explicitly stated I was not, in fact, a console producer, at least not anything approaching even a semi-regular basis, since I've produced maybe a half-dozen or so, ever.
So, you're adamantly opposed to the notion of profit, but here you are, hypocritically profiting while inventing a paper-thin excuse to justify your blatantly exploitation of the system yourself? Not that I see anything WRONG with this, but let's call a spade a spade, shall we? And yeah, I do that, too.
So, who's the real greedy profiteer here, hrm? It sure as hell isn't the guy who's running a significant risk of taking a huge loss here. Maybe it might be...the guys who wildly inflate the price of the ARTIFACTS, people like YOU.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. But you seem to believe there is.
All money is Monopoly money, man. Only commodities possessed actually have true value. Everything else is just an illusionary number, often not even paper. This is just as true of real life as it is in-game.
Precisely. Labor costs. It costs money to hire people to assemble that car out of that iron.
So, does that mean if you assemble the car yourself, without any employees, after you mine the iron yourself, you're now a filthy profiteer for selling the car at market value since YOU didn't pay anything to get any of those things? Is that what you're saying?
Because that's absurd.
Now, let's be clear here: I don't care one way or another what happens to the console market. I don't really make money on this. I am not invested in any particular way. What I do know, however, is that given the numbers involved for material costs, having rigorously analyzed the entire production chain, that the 30M pricetag is not an unreasonable or unfair number. Yes, it is grossly overpriced in relation to what these consoles DO, but NOT in relation to what it costs to MAKE these things given how rare they are to get. The SMART move would be NOT TO EVER BUY THESE THINGS. And I didn't. But the simple fact is that there are underlying numbers which govern WHY these things are where they are, and those numbers all add up.
Leech is that way because it is easily the most valued console in the game, and the lockbox it comes in has been discontinued. And it hasn't "gone" from anywhere. It's been that way since the end of the Tal Box, about 2 boxes ago. The supply is now near non-existent, but people still want more of them....
It is simple supply and demand, just like what will now happen to the soon-worthless Purple XII Tac Consoles.
All your ideology again point to a greed stricken system:The profit Motivation, terms used and ideas used in today's RL markets that has ruined the world economy and continues to do so. I have only sold a few of those artifacts just to prove an experiment, and not at the 800k overinflated price that you would have to be stupid to pay, no much cheaper and guess what odds are the people who bought them use them to produce numerous overinflated consoles, or at least attempt to. Other's most likely relisted them in the exchange for the 800k fir which there are tons of them and not selling quickly I might add. So for you to say anything you sell need equate a profit term like opportunity cost is simply proving the greed factor (had I sold now I would make $TRIBBLE as opposed to later only making $TRIBBLE with the possibility of $xxxx). The 800k artifact isn't worth 800k despite what the exchange lists it for, would you pay 800k for an artifact you can get for free? Most likely NO, so how can you say it becomes part of the equation unless you are out to make money thru profit for which is a simple capitalism ideal driven by the greedy people who put it into place and created the idea. And yet you continue to find other ways to again profit highly thru motivation of again greed, this you explained yourself by saying you have other means to gain a profit. All you keep blabbering on about is profit this profit that I got to do this and equate this so I can profit this profit profit profit $$$$$$$ is all you see and hear.
Stuffing your fingers in your ears and screaming "IT'S NOT TRUE" over and over like a child does not change the facts. Read the link yourself.
It is, in fact, exactly the same. The outcome is unchanged: I now have an apple. This apple is, in your example, worth $10, unless you got swindled for it and paid more than market value (which STILL doesn't change anything, you've still got whatever market value is). Regardless, you now possess an apple worth whatever market value is. Your current networth thus includes this apple. If you make a pie out of it, and sell the pie, your networth increases by the sale value of the pie, minus the value of the apple you consumed. If you eat the apple, your networth increases by the value of the resulting poo (nothing), minus the value of the apple you consumed.
The moral of the story is simple: Don't eat apples.
What if the apple had no market value? And you picked it from a centuries old tree at no cost to anybody? What would you economics greed factor tell you than?
You were never, ever guaranteed a big payoff for doffcrafting Tac consoles. The fact that you have come to expect it is irrelevant.
If you actually bothered to read what I wrote, you'll note I specifically said you weren't guaranteed anything for making a console. You ARE, however, all but guaranteed to receive 800K if you just flat out sell the artifact, at least until market value on those crashes as well.
I have only sold a few of those artifacts just to prove an experiment, and not at the 800k overinflated price that you would have to be stupid to pay, no much cheaper and guess what odds are the people who bought them use them to produce numerous overinflated consoles, or at least attempt to.
Well, then, it was your choice to essentially give it away. Who's stupid here, the guy who sells a thing far below market value, or the guy who buys it?
The 800k artifact isn't worth 800k despite what the exchange lists it for, would you pay 800k for an artifact you can get for free?
Because time is money. Some people would apparently rather not spend ages creating farm alts to farm artifacts with, since you can get only one measly artifact per character every 3-4 days or so, which is insufficient to feed a console manufacturing cycle of 8 hours. Would *I* pay that much? No, but SOMEONE clearly will, and that's how markets work. There is a supply, and a demand, and a equilibrium is established at a price where the desire of people to supply these artifacts matches the desire of people to pay for them.
All you keep blabbering on about is profit this profit that I got to do this and equate this so I can profit this profit profit profit $$$$$$$ is all you see and hear.
If you don't generate money somehow, you don't get anywhere in this game. What, do you still fly your freebie ship with its stock gear? I don't think so.
What if the apple had no market value? And you picked it from a centuries old tree at no cost to anybody? What would you economics greed factor tell you than?
If the apple had no market value, then its opportunity cost for use would be far lower. But inputting a zero into an equation does not change the equation. It is even possible for a material input to have negative value: Someone might pay you to take it off their hands. Turning garbage into saleable goods is a business model used by many in real life. It still doesn't change the equation, however.
What if the apple had no market value? And you picked it from a centuries old tree at no cost to anybody? What would you economics greed factor tell you than?
SAme thing every corporation and goverment says, i have it now, how can i make an obscene profit off it, even if that obscene profit means absolutely nothing, and that profit just sits there like some kind of useless trophy to lord over others.
Thanks if get a free "apple" im going to eat it, not try and resell it. Bunch of profit mongers......
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Snip
If you don't generate money somehow, you don't get anywhere in this game. What, do you still fly your freebie ship with its stock gear? I don't think so.
/Snip
Nope i generate money by working this thing called a "job" in the real world. So i can buy things like games and items in said games. Then i work on getting free things in the game, to get free things from my fleet.
And now that Fleet Tactical consoles are rolling out, my patience has paid off. No need to profite monger, because you realize you profit mongers are the reason the Dil cap is still in place right. To stop you from converting millions of Dil into Zen to buy keys to put on the exchange, to make profits that you arent going to ever spend all of......
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Comments
This does not magically enable you to BE there in sufficient quantity to make a difference, alas.
Unless you're prepared to deploy a crazy amount of infrastructure in preparation for this, it's simply a major pain in the TRIBBLE. If you HAVE deployed that infrastructure to get you there, you'll quickly find there are better uses for it than chasing this and its associated side missions. That's why those things are 800K: Because they're a pain in the TRIBBLE to put together. Time is money.
In that case, they'll just find a different means to grind EC's, no worries there.
The people doing it because they enjoyed it will still keep doing it, and sell these consoles too. For reference: check the mk xii purple Neutroniums, just for funsies.
Edit: Yeah. As already pointed it, it had TWO hubs (Both Ds9 and Bajor has all of that!) that you could get to with around 30 seconds of load time. And I thought I was lazy!
That is a lost opportunity. Not a cost. You seem to confuse opportunity with actual cost. Which are not the same thing.
Going by your logic : If possible opportunity profits were part of the actual production costs, than you could by the same token charge 40mil for the Artifact, because by selling it you loose the opportunity of getting a purple tac console out of it.
Totally ridiculous.
What's next, coal costing thousands of dollars because "We are loosing profit because these coals would be dimonds in a billion years?
If you were too lazy to make the artifact yourself, you were making it too expensive for yourself.
If you want to make metal cutlery, and you get the metal from buying cars and dismantling them instead of getting raw materials, you are doing it wrong.
Again, an untruth. These prices are due to greed, because 10 minutes of investment doing all the duty officer missions and farming the traces for 30mil is still very profitable. It is a slow process, but the pricetag more than justifies waiting a few days.
You would earn much less if you spent that time with a daily foundry farm mission.
Edit: Sigh.... you really do not get it, right? The selling price you get for your raw materials is NOT in your cost, and you cant justify the products price with that.
I do not believe a word you say. I already did the math earlier.
And I did the math in a way that disregarded consoles that could still be sold, like a mark xii Neutronium.
That still disregards the fact that even mark XI-XII blues can be sold for some money. Not a stellar profit, but still profit.
Since the cost you make is 4000 EC per console, even vendor trashing is around 7-8k . That is still twice as much money as you put in.
And if a certain merchant is too LAZY to get the raw materials you can get for free and buys them off the exchange, than that is simply an inefficient business plan, which does not justify the high prices.
To answer your dumb question, yes I have done it many of times. the artifact mission is either available or it isn't. Takes 5 mins to search for the mission, if it isn't up check the update timer and go do something else till it flips available missions, or are you not bright enough to pay attention to that timer? Oh and all that 5 mins of searching for the mission you can do the doff missions for materials as well along the way! If I craft a console and it isn't what I needed than I vendor it or sell it and still make something from it, considering all it ost me was 5 mins a day tops and no EC's.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The lockets and jevonite costs you.... *Gasps* Four thousand ec! I'm agreeing with you, but I have to point out this "terrible" price cost for the sake of completeness.
A minuscule amount of money that you get more than back by selling even a mark X white console.
That is not what it means. Read it.
You don't get 30M for 10 minutes of investment. You get an artifact for (a lot more than) 10 minutes. An artifact is only a valuable console 3.5% of the time. To produce a valuable console therefore requires an average of about 30 artifacts.
Yes, actually you CAN. That is, in fact, a major factor in the cost of an item in real life. The cost of EVERYTHING in real life includes the cost of the materials. If i takes me a ton of iron to make an item that is actually worth LESS than the ton of iron I started with, then I have lost money by doing this, and I should have just sold the iron as scrap. How is it that you do not understand this? Have you ever noticed how when the price of copper goes up, the price of wires also goes up?
Using RL economics in a game is pretty lame, and a clear issue you have P.R.O.F.I.T. written all over your forehead. And saying the cost of iron as compared to your time of a few mins each doff assignment and searching for the artifact and some materials cannot be put together in the same category. Unlike the iron which has a material value, your time is only as valuable as you think it is and not so much to the Dev's. If it wasn't easy to over inflate the cost of the consoles and forced to sell them dirt cheap, than people would stop making them now wouldn't they? Well now that time is finally falling in place, so ask yourself will you continue to make them or give it up and move on?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Actually, even during the height of the console making era, pre-Fleet-Consoles, the profit margin was really pretty thin: For all your bother, you could expect to make, on average, less than a million per artifact. We calculated this out. At this point, it's probably closer to a loss.
Consoles are not made of "time", they are made of artifacts. An artifact, according to the market value, is ~800K. Since, as you pointed out, most of the actual goods involved in the production of an artifact are not explicitly expensive, most of this cost in labor. This is why a ton of iron is $200, but a car is $10000.
You are arguing my point now. If people stop making consoles because their value has crashed, this explicitly proves my point: That the price tag associated with those valued consoles was actually fair, and that the crash in their value has reduced the activity below the point at which it generates a justifiable return on time and material investment.
You seem to think I'm actually a console producer. I'm not arguing this point because I'm somehow defending some livelihood. No, the business I'm in is doing just fine, better than ever, since I sell dilithum and dilithium accessories, and that's precisely what people need to buy these new consoles. It should be obvious to even the most feebleminded simpleton that the XII Purples are now worthless garbage, being that they are completely outclassed by the Fleet consoles. No one in their right mind will pay 30M for that trash in a few weeks. All of this is completely irrelevant to my original point: That pre-Fleet-Consoles, the 30M pricetag was actually completely fair and reasonable given the numbers involved.
Everything you just described is a greed driven desire to make a PROFIT. You are probably one of those that keep buying my artifacts and making tons of consoles in the hopes of overcharging for them in the end. I use it as an experiment to see how gullible people are to willing pay such a dumb overinflated price on an artifact that costs me a few mins to obtain. If I want to make a console I will for myself or a fleet member, but not to try and make EC's which to me is monopoly money in this game. So if you are one of those greed stricken profiteers than hooray that they finally did away with the need to pay millions for a tac console and balance it out with fleet versions. After all fleet's should have superior gear over loot and crafter items.
EDIT: Oh and as for the $200 a ton in iron, and $10k for a car is because they have RL expenses. Such as employees, materials, overhead, possible loans...etc. In game we have no in game RL expenses like those, what few expenses there are in this game doesn't involve needing to ask 30million for a console just to survive.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Is there anyway STO/PWE/Cryptic could get rid of the oversellers...
I know someone in game who was bragging about buying Plasmonic Leetches (the 5 cheapest on the exchange) then he will just relist them for 30% more...
EVERYDAY (he was braggin in zone chat about it)
In the matter of 3 weeks, the Leetch has gone from 6 mil, to just under 16 mil EC
There's gotta be a way....
EX: Anything bought on the exchange cannot be relisted for 5 business days. or something...anything.
Really, give it another 3 weeks, and the leetch will be 30 mil ec. That is economy crippling inflation...
So, you're adamantly opposed to the notion of profit, but here you are, hypocritically profiting while inventing a paper-thin excuse to justify your blatantly exploitation of the system yourself? Not that I see anything WRONG with this, but let's call a spade a spade, shall we? And yeah, I do that, too.
So, who's the real greedy profiteer here, hrm? It sure as hell isn't the guy who's running a significant risk of taking a huge loss here. Maybe it might be...the guys who wildly inflate the price of the ARTIFACTS, people like YOU.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. But you seem to believe there is.
All money is Monopoly money, man. Only commodities possessed actually have true value. Everything else is just an illusionary number, often not even paper. This is just as true of real life as it is in-game.
Precisely. Labor costs. It costs money to hire people to assemble that car out of that iron.
So, does that mean if you assemble the car yourself, without any employees, after you mine the iron yourself, you're now a filthy profiteer for selling the car at market value since YOU didn't pay anything to get any of those things? Is that what you're saying?
Because that's absurd.
Now, let's be clear here: I don't care one way or another what happens to the console market. I don't really make money on this. I am not invested in any particular way. What I do know, however, is that given the numbers involved for material costs, having rigorously analyzed the entire production chain, that the 30M pricetag is not an unreasonable or unfair number. Yes, it is grossly overpriced in relation to what these consoles DO, but NOT in relation to what it costs to MAKE these things given how rare they are to get. The SMART move would be NOT TO EVER BUY THESE THINGS. And I didn't. But the simple fact is that there are underlying numbers which govern WHY these things are where they are, and those numbers all add up.
Leech is that way because it is easily the most valued console in the game, and the lockbox it comes in has been discontinued. And it hasn't "gone" from anywhere. It's been that way since the end of the Tal Box, about 2 boxes ago. The supply is now near non-existent, but people still want more of them....
It is simple supply and demand, just like what will now happen to the soon-worthless Purple XII Tac Consoles.
It is indeed another underlying issue to a player driven "free market"
Like a real world one, if you allow completely free exchange this is the ultimate result in any product. Whoever acquires the most currency in the early going, gains an insurmountable advantage over anyone who gets into the game later.
Without some form of regulation, you get into empire like corporate entities (we call them monopolies) that in turn control every price. It is no longer about supply and demand, it becomes
"I have enough money to buy out anything cheaper and resell it at MY price, and thats too bad because you can only get it from me now MWA HA HA"
Literally.
It doesnt work for the consumer in the real world, and it doesnt work for the consumer in this virtual world.
As much of a small government person as I am, the anti-trust laws are the only thing keeping the largest corporations from literally owning all of us. (another debate entirely as to how effective they really are, however)
What this game needs is something like you described. The inability to relist something you just bought five minutes ago. Or making everything bind on acquire out of the exchange.
You can sell it if you get it out in the field, but the moment you buy it off of the exchange you could never sell it.
I like that idea actually.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Oh, give us a break. Your logic doesn't explain why purple mk xii Neutroniums still go for 9-10 mil.
These should've been worthless since the introduction of the Mine holding, too, then. I'd say that sort of credits is hardly at vendor trash level. And the tac consoles most likely will stay a tad more expensive than the Neutroniums, as they always have been.
Agreed. This sounds like a very good mechanic. Monopolies are bad, mkay.
Non fleet consoles will still sell because some people dont like fleets.
But no, opportunity cost is just a dumb idea. It is very stupid.
Imagine if you are, as you say, making cars.
You can either hire miners and get the ore mined for 1000 dollars, or you can buy it from someone else for ... hm... 100.000 dollars.
Now if you are buying the 100k dollar ones instead of mining it for 1k, you are doing it wrong.
Just make sure its to account and not to character, so that I can gear out my alts : )
Indeed...Honestly I think everything but commons should bind to account, exception would of course be reputation items...Fleet items should be available for all characters in the account because they are expensive enough as it is....we already did the grind for the items we should be open to use it as we please.:rolleyes:
I got blue mark XI Ap consoles on my main that are Bind to character, but if they were bind to account I could use them on an alt.
Once we do, then we will see what ACTUALLY will happen to tac consoles.
That is not what the term means.
Imagine for a moment that I have a ton of whatzit. It doesn't matter how I got it, I have it now. To keep the example simple, imagine there are precisely two serious things I can do with it: I can make it into a thingummy, which I can then sell for 30K, or I can just straight up sell the whatzit, for 10K. That 10K is my opportunity cost if I choose to make a thingummy out of my whatzit. My ultimate actual profit is actually only 20K, because my opportunity cost for not selling the whatzit is 10K.
The same applies here. If I sell the artifact, I'm guaranteed to get 800K. That's already part of my networth. If I make it into a console, and that console turns out to be worthless vendortrash I can only chuck into the recycler for a measly 10K, I've immediately lost 790K of value.
This is the equivalent of taking 300 lockbox keys, opening 300 boxes, and getting nothing but junk, then moaning about not having gotten a ship and still being broke: I've eaten the opportunity cost of NOT selling those 300 keys, and this cost has pushed the entire thing deeply into the red. I'm still broke, AND I don't have a ship, when if I had sold the keys, I could have had a freaking Bug with keys to spare.
It doesn't matter how I got the keys. I could have bought them with Zen from the Exchange, or scooped them up when someone misplaced a few zeroes for practically free. The end result is the same: I'm out those 300 keys worth of value.
You were never, ever guaranteed a big payoff for doffcrafting Tac consoles. The fact that you have come to expect it is irrelevant.
Same here...my inventory is busting at the seams.
And you speak untruth again. It does matter how you get it.
Maybe to you, finding an apple on the way home or paying 10 dollars for the same apple is the same...
It is, in fact, exactly the same. The outcome is unchanged: I now have an apple. This apple is, in your example, worth $10, unless you got swindled for it and paid more than market value (which STILL doesn't change anything, you've still got whatever market value is). Regardless, you now possess an apple worth whatever market value is. Your current networth thus includes this apple. If you make a pie out of it, and sell the pie, your networth increases by the sale value of the pie, minus the value of the apple you consumed. If you eat the apple, your networth increases by the value of the resulting poo (nothing), minus the value of the apple you consumed.
The moral of the story is simple: Don't eat apples.
All your ideology again point to a greed stricken system:The profit Motivation, terms used and ideas used in today's RL markets that has ruined the world economy and continues to do so. I have only sold a few of those artifacts just to prove an experiment, and not at the 800k overinflated price that you would have to be stupid to pay, no much cheaper and guess what odds are the people who bought them use them to produce numerous overinflated consoles, or at least attempt to. Other's most likely relisted them in the exchange for the 800k fir which there are tons of them and not selling quickly I might add. So for you to say anything you sell need equate a profit term like opportunity cost is simply proving the greed factor (had I sold now I would make $TRIBBLE as opposed to later only making $TRIBBLE with the possibility of $xxxx). The 800k artifact isn't worth 800k despite what the exchange lists it for, would you pay 800k for an artifact you can get for free? Most likely NO, so how can you say it becomes part of the equation unless you are out to make money thru profit for which is a simple capitalism ideal driven by the greedy people who put it into place and created the idea. And yet you continue to find other ways to again profit highly thru motivation of again greed, this you explained yourself by saying you have other means to gain a profit. All you keep blabbering on about is profit this profit that I got to do this and equate this so I can profit this profit profit profit $$$$$$$ is all you see and hear.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
What if the apple had no market value? And you picked it from a centuries old tree at no cost to anybody? What would you economics greed factor tell you than?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Well, then, it was your choice to essentially give it away. Who's stupid here, the guy who sells a thing far below market value, or the guy who buys it?
Because time is money. Some people would apparently rather not spend ages creating farm alts to farm artifacts with, since you can get only one measly artifact per character every 3-4 days or so, which is insufficient to feed a console manufacturing cycle of 8 hours. Would *I* pay that much? No, but SOMEONE clearly will, and that's how markets work. There is a supply, and a demand, and a equilibrium is established at a price where the desire of people to supply these artifacts matches the desire of people to pay for them.
If you don't generate money somehow, you don't get anywhere in this game. What, do you still fly your freebie ship with its stock gear? I don't think so.
If the apple had no market value, then its opportunity cost for use would be far lower. But inputting a zero into an equation does not change the equation. It is even possible for a material input to have negative value: Someone might pay you to take it off their hands. Turning garbage into saleable goods is a business model used by many in real life. It still doesn't change the equation, however.
SAme thing every corporation and goverment says, i have it now, how can i make an obscene profit off it, even if that obscene profit means absolutely nothing, and that profit just sits there like some kind of useless trophy to lord over others.
Thanks if get a free "apple" im going to eat it, not try and resell it. Bunch of profit mongers......
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Nope i generate money by working this thing called a "job" in the real world. So i can buy things like games and items in said games. Then i work on getting free things in the game, to get free things from my fleet.
And now that Fleet Tactical consoles are rolling out, my patience has paid off. No need to profite monger, because you realize you profit mongers are the reason the Dil cap is still in place right. To stop you from converting millions of Dil into Zen to buy keys to put on the exchange, to make profits that you arent going to ever spend all of......
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]