Alright, just to make a point what's wrong, once again, even after some of the suggestions, tested on my poor character, to prove that none of the suggestion worked, and in my eyes, the character looks even worse, more comic'ish with the settings, not even reducing the bust size. With this, I am done trying to justify my character to you, guys, sorry.
I reduced the shoulder, neck and body bulk.. guess what.. now she looks even less natural, and not even close to what I'd imagine. Bust are still huge, despite of making some suggested alteration. It also reminded me why I wanted to make her bulkier too - if you reduce shoulders, etc, she gets horribly tiny, so her head looks like... unnaturally, comic-ish sized, compared to body. Not to mention, that I really want a bulkier character (not TRIBBLE, but shoulders). The shoulders and hands are horribly thin/small when i take the sliders off. And yes, the head is as disproportional and huge, and it's size is set to like, one bar only.
Again - compare it to the Trek women pictures.. they look much bulkier than this, just look at the shoulders, for crying out loud. And they have also much more tighty uniform than my character is supposedly wearing, so shouldn't the "assets" being visible even less...?
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Jo, could you give us some examples of photos real people, not restricted to those that were on Trek? I think if you provided some real examples it would go a long way.
I think I know the look you're going for, but those pics quoted on the previous page look far more comic'ish than the ones here, to the point of complete impossibility.
nope.
the proportions are so off its not even cartoony. its barely even uncanny valley material.
the shoulder proportions in particular are just wrong
the upper torso to waist ratio is well outside healthy, let alone normal.
the hip to shoulder ratio is also caricaturish.
all this means the Brienne of Tarth(Gwendoline Christie) comparison is bogus at best since she actually fits the description of a healthily proportioned human female, unlike the op's paradously proportioned toon.
and i couldnt even care less about the breast size slider beyond it being questionable that any alien race would even have TRIBBLE even if they where bipedal/humanoid, and seeded by some progenitor race.
Do me a favour and read my post above, where I tried to "fix it", according to the advices given here.
Now, tell me, does the result look anywhere close to this? This is find 100 differences game:
No. Her shoulders are much wider, much closer to my character of the left, which I photoshopped, but reposting especially for those who don't bother reading my thread and are too busy saying how wrong I am.
Really shame people have to resort to trying to "correct" me, and then, even if I show them what the problem is, they don't bother reading.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Just out of curiosity, is your character an alien or human? Reason I ask is, I have a couple of toons that are aliens and I was able to get a chest size way smaller than what you're showing here.
Also, loose clothing does not always hide assets. Jeri Ryan wore a Starfleet uniform in a couple of episodes and it was still very obvious.
My character is a Betazoid, so that I think classifies as Alien... <.<
To motoko:
I sadly can't find a better picture of best non-Trek variation, but hope this illustrates my point, even though the outfit sucks, but I wanted something like that.. muscular, athletic, and surprise, her bust is so ridiculously small it looks stupid in outfit like that - and I wonder why it's smaller? Because women who workout or are military usually don't have baloons:
Oh, this one is even better!
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
I meant in terms of selecting a race option when creating the character. Did you choose "Alien"?
Nope, didn't. I wanted to go for close to human look, but with nice background traits, RP'wise. <.<
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
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shoulder width too high
shoulder bulk questionable, maybe ok.
stomachs size should be bigger for more androgynous look
torso bulk might need to be reduced.
arms too long in relation to torso length(yea, this is one cryptic need to change due to arm length making toons look like skinny, shaved gorillas)
might need to make toon taller to get the proportion right.
looks like the leg bulk may be too high but cant see clearly.
also, head size may be too big.
Well, you probably never made a female character.. if you did, you'd know that if I make her stomach bigger, she'd look pregnant, not more muscular/androgynnous. Shoulder width is like three bars and it still seems tiny as hell. Head size is nearly to minimum too, so again, wrong argument. Alas, I am done trying to justify my character to anyone.
I've edited the original post with clear examples how I'd imagine it, with linked images of real women & Trek characters. So far, none of these looks are possible in current character editor, not even close, no matter how much some people seem to think so.
There's no point in beating around the bush and derail this topic further, as I'd prefer to get this done, and not see devs discouraged to even look here, because it's full of people who were too busy trying to "correct" my character - some in a nicer way, some in lame, antagonizing way.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Your conception of female body image is partially at issue here.
I still say part of your problem is hip/torso/waist width. Too narrow downstairs, too broad upstairs. That tiny of a stomach just does not fit with that broad of a build, and the options are not limited to "wasp waist" vs "pregnant," because a little bit of roundness doesn't automatically suggest "pregnant".
And Demi Moore is not flat by any stretch of the imagination. You have to realize the effect clothing can have on mashing them back. The binding effect of clothing is not a body shape issue.
No. Her shoulders are much wider, much closer to my character of the left, which I photoshopped, but reposting especially for those who don't bother reading my thread and are too busy saying how wrong I am.
Really shame people have to resort to trying to "correct" me, and then, even if I show them what the problem is, they don't bother reading.
They're wearing shoulder pads in the uniform. Her actual shoulders look nothing like that. Unfortunately none of the uniform options replicate the lines the shoulder pads produce. Still though, I think I've managed to get pretty close with my own and not have it appear as exaggerated as yours. Then again, I'm not going for a completely androngynous look.
Still though, to keep with the original purpose, having a slightly smaller bust size would make that look much better, as that is currently with the slider all the way at zero.
I believe you're all missing the point. The OP is not looking for (nor do they need) advice on how to design their character.
And people are trying to explain that proportioning the rest of the body will affect the perception of "flatness."
They're asking for a flat/no chest option for females. At least to me, I don't see a problem with that. Let people design characters however they like.
I don't disagree, but I also fail to see why choosing a male character and giving it a female name isn't a viable interim measure. If "androgynous" is your goal, you should not care what gender label appears under your name.
Your conception of female body image is partially at issue here.
I still say part of your problem is hip/torso/waist width. Too narrow downstairs, too broad upstairs. That tiny of a stomach just does not fit with that broad of a build, and the options are not limited to "wasp waist" vs "pregnant," because a little bit of roundness doesn't automatically suggest "pregnant".
And Demi Moore is not flat by any stretch of the imagination. You have to realize the effect clothing can have on mashing them back. The binding effect of clothing is not a body shape issue.
Pretty please, please, please, please, I am repeating myself, you *can't* make a muscular, athletic looking female with smaller balloons no matter how you try. I posted million examples.
Also, yes, to your point about clothing, clothing in real life can either underline the size or can hide it. It's not happening in STO, because no matter what the character wears, it's still showing them big sized, even at smallest bust slider.
Here are my BOFF's, check the female ones, with proportions I've not altered much, except for hair & ofc, their busts - they too have smallest busts possible, are they any smaller? No. just the build of female is tiny and not what I imagine at all, because yes, I want bulkier, trained character.
Now, can you finally leave my character alone? Thank you.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Pretty please, please, please, please, I am repeating myself, you *can't* make a muscular, athletic looking female with smaller balloons no matter how you try. I posted million examples.
We all understand that perfectly.
What is not clear is why you insist she be "female" in-game if you insist her shape be androgynous.
Now, can you finally leave my character alone? Thank you.
:rolleyes:
If you don't want discussion, don't post it on a message board.
A bit irrelevant when it comes to the request. I merely want something smaller than what we have now, because what we have now is too big, even for smaller feminine forms.
What is not clear is why you insist she be "female" in-game if you insist her shape be androgynous.
:rolleyes:
If you don't want discussion, don't post it on a message board.
So, tell me one thing, why exactly do I have to justify my choice, how I want my character to look like? The bust IS big, regardless of what has been attempted, and I don't want a tiny female either - which doesn't even rectify the bust size problem anyways. the ballonos should be smaller, and appropriate uniform should at least try to hide them, but neither works.
Also, this thread is *not* about my character, it's about wanting proper, muscular/athletic shaped woman body, which has smaller A-sized cups as a minimum option. Stop being a jerk, for crying out loud.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Don't let them get to you, jodarkrider. I hate to sound cliche, but the fact is, society just isn't 'ready' to accept certain things.
As it is now, and in the foreseeable future, most people identify males and females not by one characteristic, but by a set of characteristics, to which both sexes have to meet most of them to qualify in their mind. Physical appearance is apparently very important in not only sexual identification, and to determine what cultural behaviors, and sometimes partner/mate-courting practices to use. This extends to the fictional world as well. Even if there are examples of the topic IRL, if society for the most part deems a trait to be undesirable or unsociable, they tend to go out of their way to keep it away from their preferred fiction.
Personally, I can relate. I am an advocate of encouraging developers to implement flexible cultural gender spectrum elements into character customization and play(such as hair styles and stances). It greatly contrasts with your push for more biological diversity, but as it faces much of the same adversity, I completely understand. You have my complete support.
Don't let them get to you, jodarkrider. I hate to sound cliche, but the fact is, society just isn't 'ready' to accept certain things.
As it is now, and in the foreseeable future, most people identify males and females not by one characteristic, but by a set of characteristics, to which both sexes have to meet most of them to qualify in their mind. Physical appearance is apparently very important in not only sexual identification, and to determine what cultural behaviors, and sometimes partner/mate-courting practices to use. This extends to the fictional world as well. Even if there are examples of the topic IRL, if society for the most part deems a trait to be undesirable or unsociable, they tend to go out of their way to keep it away from their preferred fiction.
Personally, I can relate. I am an advocate of encouraging developers to implement flexible cultural gender spectrum elements into character customization and play(such as hair styles and stances). It greatly contrasts with your push for more biological diversity, but as it faces much of the same adversity, I completely understand. You have my complete support.
/signed
Sad is, that I am not asking anything outrageous. The bust sizes are too big when set to minimum, as I illustrated with quite few images, and all I want is athletic/less sexualized shape for female characters, where the size of balloons won't yell "Come get me!"
This is sadly a trend with most games though - with the exception of titles like Mass Effect series and games from Bioware in general, where you had really free hand in making the character the way you wanted. It's sad that the developpers mainly try to cater to typical teenage male demography - but in the spirit of Trek, as a series, I am hoping that we will get more choices, not less in STO - which is my sole intent and hope to see some sort of feedback from the developper team, rather than read gripes of people burdened by societal baggage about "ideal female beauty" or how wrong proportioned my own character is (and yes, I like the proportions I posted in my original post, EXCEPT the balloons).
I could go lenght about women and androgyny - as androgyny doesn't mean these women want to be men, more like, they want to make the genders and their ridiculous stereotypes blurred, wanting to be themselves, rather than being reduced to an object with a label, but I won't, as I don't feel the need to justify my preferences, because such changes, if they were added are not hurting anyone; rather, it gives more variety to everyone.
People, who think "You practicing your rights offends me, therefore you can't do it." simply need to think outside of their self-centered... self and get off their high horse and let others have the possibility to portray their character in way their owners want, and not expect that everyone is here to appease some sort of... "standard".
I appreciate your support, orangeitis
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Once again, I'm fine with giving you the appearance options you want, but not reducing my options to accommodate your demands.
She already stated in the OP that she does not want to limit anyone, just make the lowest settings for TRIBBLE lower than it currently is. A cup size instead of C cup. So if you slide the slider all the way to the left you get A cup, all the way over to the right is unchanged. That will not limit anyone but actualy add more choices.
As for how she sets up her characters and BOFF's is her bussiness.
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I am making rational and reasonable comments to perhaps get this done. Frankly, I'd rather have the height of alien characters limited to this minimum size, than being forced to play over-sexualized female character as the only one choice for female character, instead of giving me another option how to portrait my character who'd happen to be a female. I find such argument so irrational and not logical, that it hurts to even try to make any sense; as even my son, who is 10 years old would understand the rationality and logic behind it & yet, it seems I might be talking to deaf ears here. Also, rather than speculations, I'd rather see actual developpers to comment on this thread.
If Cryptic is so concerned about the child issue with aliens, then don't allow childish appearances (aka mentioned rounded faces and dwarvish sizes - most canon aliens, including human have set a minimum height anyways, so not really anything new here?) at all... but yeah, making oversexualized females is the lesser of the two evil.. yup, seems legit argument to me...?
But seriously, would love to see some of the dev team to comment, as again, I fail to grasp why they'd be deaf to this, unless they simply want to appeal to teenage male demographic and don't want to give more options to different age group.
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I specifically commented on the "children" argument, posting picture of Tasha Yarr, who looks very flat-chested and yet doesn't look like a child.
With the alien creator you can make a really small children with flat chest. Like some one said, I understand cryptic in this issue.
This is also why males have the beard shadow in the face that you can not remove.
I understand you, and I wish there will be a solution, but if the solution to this issue is limit the alien creator, them I am sorry but no.. and I dont see how we can have both. Maybe lowering the cup size to all except to aliens.. I dont know.
Or maybe, like we have 2 types of faces, we can have 2 types of bodys.. but I dont see cryptic doing all this work unless it give them money..
With the alien creator you can make a really small children with flat chest. Like some one said, I understand cryptic in this issue.
This is also why males have the beard shadow in the face that you can not remove.
I understand you, and I wish there will be a solution, but if the solution to this issue is limit the alien creator, them I am sorry but no.. and I dont see how we can have both. Maybe lowering the cup size to all except to aliens.. I dont know.
Or maybe, like we have 2 types of faces, we can have 2 types of bodys.. but I dont see cryptic doing all this work unless it give them money..
Well, tbh, if they limited height sizes in the alien creator, similar to what most races have, in terms of height, it'd be only fair - how exactly is it fair to be forced to C-sized cups as minimum with every female you make, just because alien creator allows lesser height compared to other races?
I really don't see why is it such a fuss to reduce the minimum setting to A-cups + being able to hide them even more, if you wear certain uniforms. I mean, reducing the size of balloons is not that much work. But then again, all I hear are comments from everyone, except the dev team. So, going to take all, which was said here with a grain of salt.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Comments
I think her toon looks fine and her request is not unreasonable.
Too many people with nasty little nit picking opinions that arent helping anyone but bashing this person on how she wanted to make HER toon look.
Its sad to see such hate for a simple request.
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I reduced the shoulder, neck and body bulk.. guess what.. now she looks even less natural, and not even close to what I'd imagine. Bust are still huge, despite of making some suggested alteration. It also reminded me why I wanted to make her bulkier too - if you reduce shoulders, etc, she gets horribly tiny, so her head looks like... unnaturally, comic-ish sized, compared to body. Not to mention, that I really want a bulkier character (not TRIBBLE, but shoulders). The shoulders and hands are horribly thin/small when i take the sliders off. And yes, the head is as disproportional and huge, and it's size is set to like, one bar only.
Again - compare it to the Trek women pictures.. they look much bulkier than this, just look at the shoulders, for crying out loud. And they have also much more tighty uniform than my character is supposedly wearing, so shouldn't the "assets" being visible even less...?
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I think I know the look you're going for, but those pics quoted on the previous page look far more comic'ish than the ones here, to the point of complete impossibility.
Now, tell me, does the result look anywhere close to this? This is find 100 differences game:
No. Her shoulders are much wider, much closer to my character of the left, which I photoshopped, but reposting especially for those who don't bother reading my thread and are too busy saying how wrong I am.
Really shame people have to resort to trying to "correct" me, and then, even if I show them what the problem is, they don't bother reading.
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To motoko:
I sadly can't find a better picture of best non-Trek variation, but hope this illustrates my point, even though the outfit sucks, but I wanted something like that.. muscular, athletic, and surprise, her bust is so ridiculously small it looks stupid in outfit like that - and I wonder why it's smaller? Because women who workout or are military usually don't have baloons:
Oh, this one is even better!
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"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
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I've edited the original post with clear examples how I'd imagine it, with linked images of real women & Trek characters. So far, none of these looks are possible in current character editor, not even close, no matter how much some people seem to think so.
There's no point in beating around the bush and derail this topic further, as I'd prefer to get this done, and not see devs discouraged to even look here, because it's full of people who were too busy trying to "correct" my character - some in a nicer way, some in lame, antagonizing way.
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I still say part of your problem is hip/torso/waist width. Too narrow downstairs, too broad upstairs. That tiny of a stomach just does not fit with that broad of a build, and the options are not limited to "wasp waist" vs "pregnant," because a little bit of roundness doesn't automatically suggest "pregnant".
And Demi Moore is not flat by any stretch of the imagination. You have to realize the effect clothing can have on mashing them back. The binding effect of clothing is not a body shape issue.
They're wearing shoulder pads in the uniform. Her actual shoulders look nothing like that. Unfortunately none of the uniform options replicate the lines the shoulder pads produce. Still though, I think I've managed to get pretty close with my own and not have it appear as exaggerated as yours. Then again, I'm not going for a completely androngynous look.
Still though, to keep with the original purpose, having a slightly smaller bust size would make that look much better, as that is currently with the slider all the way at zero.
And people are trying to explain that proportioning the rest of the body will affect the perception of "flatness."
I don't disagree, but I also fail to see why choosing a male character and giving it a female name isn't a viable interim measure. If "androgynous" is your goal, you should not care what gender label appears under your name.
Also, yes, to your point about clothing, clothing in real life can either underline the size or can hide it. It's not happening in STO, because no matter what the character wears, it's still showing them big sized, even at smallest bust slider.
Here are my BOFF's, check the female ones, with proportions I've not altered much, except for hair & ofc, their busts - they too have smallest busts possible, are they any smaller? No. just the build of female is tiny and not what I imagine at all, because yes, I want bulkier, trained character.
http://gateway.startrekonline.com/#char(JenniferJ. Firali@jodarkrider)/personnel-bridgeofficers
Now, can you finally leave my character alone? Thank you.
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We all understand that perfectly.
What is not clear is why you insist she be "female" in-game if you insist her shape be androgynous.
:rolleyes:
If you don't want discussion, don't post it on a message board.
Also, this thread is *not* about my character, it's about wanting proper, muscular/athletic shaped woman body, which has smaller A-sized cups as a minimum option. Stop being a jerk, for crying out loud.
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As it is now, and in the foreseeable future, most people identify males and females not by one characteristic, but by a set of characteristics, to which both sexes have to meet most of them to qualify in their mind. Physical appearance is apparently very important in not only sexual identification, and to determine what cultural behaviors, and sometimes partner/mate-courting practices to use. This extends to the fictional world as well. Even if there are examples of the topic IRL, if society for the most part deems a trait to be undesirable or unsociable, they tend to go out of their way to keep it away from their preferred fiction.
Personally, I can relate. I am an advocate of encouraging developers to implement flexible cultural gender spectrum elements into character customization and play(such as hair styles and stances). It greatly contrasts with your push for more biological diversity, but as it faces much of the same adversity, I completely understand. You have my complete support.
/signed
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This is sadly a trend with most games though - with the exception of titles like Mass Effect series and games from Bioware in general, where you had really free hand in making the character the way you wanted. It's sad that the developpers mainly try to cater to typical teenage male demography - but in the spirit of Trek, as a series, I am hoping that we will get more choices, not less in STO - which is my sole intent and hope to see some sort of feedback from the developper team, rather than read gripes of people burdened by societal baggage about "ideal female beauty" or how wrong proportioned my own character is (and yes, I like the proportions I posted in my original post, EXCEPT the balloons).
I could go lenght about women and androgyny - as androgyny doesn't mean these women want to be men, more like, they want to make the genders and their ridiculous stereotypes blurred, wanting to be themselves, rather than being reduced to an object with a label, but I won't, as I don't feel the need to justify my preferences, because such changes, if they were added are not hurting anyone; rather, it gives more variety to everyone.
People, who think "You practicing your rights offends me, therefore you can't do it." simply need to think outside of their self-centered... self and get off their high horse and let others have the possibility to portray their character in way their owners want, and not expect that everyone is here to appease some sort of... "standard".
I appreciate your support, orangeitis
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She already stated in the OP that she does not want to limit anyone, just make the lowest settings for TRIBBLE lower than it currently is. A cup size instead of C cup. So if you slide the slider all the way to the left you get A cup, all the way over to the right is unchanged. That will not limit anyone but actualy add more choices.
As for how she sets up her characters and BOFF's is her bussiness.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
I am not sure why busts are so large, yet the legs and arms are rather thin.
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With the alien creator you can make a really small children with flat chest. Like some one said, I understand cryptic in this issue.
This is also why males have the beard shadow in the face that you can not remove.
I understand you, and I wish there will be a solution, but if the solution to this issue is limit the alien creator, them I am sorry but no.. and I dont see how we can have both. Maybe lowering the cup size to all except to aliens.. I dont know.
Or maybe, like we have 2 types of faces, we can have 2 types of bodys.. but I dont see cryptic doing all this work unless it give them money..
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I really don't see why is it such a fuss to reduce the minimum setting to A-cups + being able to hide them even more, if you wear certain uniforms. I mean, reducing the size of balloons is not that much work. But then again, all I hear are comments from everyone, except the dev team. So, going to take all, which was said here with a grain of salt.
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