Females & bust size slider problem

jodarkrider · October 2013

Since the original topic is quite old, and according to rules you are not supposed to bump topics after certain period of time, I am making a new topic about this, since it's still relevant to me, and there's been no change to current state of things.

I am referring to the size of bust for female characters specifically.

I am specifically referring to this thread - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=613171

Right now, even if you have even the lowest possible setting, your character still has TRIBBLE size of Pamela Anderson in her prime. No matter what you wear with the character either, as every clothing piece, no matter how loose, does not mitigate that problem and doesn't even try to hide that particular part of the body.

To demonstrate it visually, as a picture is worth more than just words:

The picture on left is edited image, what it should look like, whereas the image on right is current state of busts, when set on minimal. And before you go bash me for that not being possible, because adult females don't have so small busts, I am giving you this picture of Tasha Yarr:

See? No oversized *things*

Mind you, that outfit Tasha is wearing is even more tight than the one my STO character is wearing. This should also be a counter argument towards "creating a child character" mentioned in the old thread - Does Tasha look like a child? No. So, please, can you devs look into this? I want diversity for my character, to not be a typical barbie doll with oversized *things*, just because there's majority of people (let's face it, mostly guys), who want to make sci-fi version of skimpy Xena. From what I've seen so far from the series, Star Trek is a lot about diversity and tolerance, and it'd be nice to see that in STO as well.

EDIT, AFTER some feedback:

Some people went to blood, to argue that my character is unnatural, and that I might get the desired effect if I actually reduced the bulkiness of my character's torso, shoulder and hands, while adding some extra waist.

Here is a proof that it's not true, as it's not anywhere close to: this character, or even this character.

To show in pictures, what I imagine it could look like:

This - she wears an uniform, and no balloons, as illustrated by the STO character I posted here.
Anoither example of uniformed female Trek character, again, surprise, no balloons visible, at least not as excessively - Here goes.
Even from side, you don't get to see huge balloons when wearing super tight uniform, good example here.

Last, but not least, here is an example how a woman looked like after a military training, which was even milded down, as it's an actress and not a real soldier - Nearly flat chested, with broader shoulders

To also note:

This topic is not about how I chose to set my character, so don't give me advices how to "fix" it. I tried, and still haven't got the desired shape, it in fact looked even worse. Thank you.

To people out there - if you have nothing, but hate to post as a reply, please do not respond at all & keep it positive, thank you.

PS: To avoid confusion - This thread is about the lowest slider size of bust reduced to small/flat ones, not about taking the option of large busts from others. Trek is about diversity, so I'd never think of taking away choices from others, so this is simply to add more options for those, who don't want to run around with huge TRIBBLE, despite of their slider being reduced to absolute minimum. Thank you.

cuatela · October 2013

Part of why your character is so "endowed" is because your shoulder width and bulk are set pretty high. I'm not really sure why shoulder width (or shoulder bulk, forget which) applies to the sizing of the chest, but it does.

In fact, your character looks somewhat deformed anyway, with an overly-wide shoulder compared to the waist proportions. To be honest, it looks like you were trying to make a man out of your female character. If you want a man, make a male character. It's a lot easier.

jodarkrider · October 2013

cuatela wrote: »

Part of why your character is so "endowed" is because your shoulder width and bulk are set pretty high. I'm not really sure why shoulder width (or shoulder bulk, forget which) applies to the sizing of the chest, but it does.

In fact, your character looks somewhat deformed anyway, with an overly-wide shoulder compared to the waist proportions. To be honest, it looks like you were trying to make a man out of your female character. If you want a man, make a male character. It's a lot easier.

Well, why can't a woman be properly butch/muscular/androgynnous? Come on, that's just weak. Comment like "Just make a male" is totally not appreciated & totally undermines the reason behind the thread. I've tried to make a lot of combinations, trust me on that, and well, the bust still comes out weird and oversized, no matter what settings you do, anyways.

hanover · October 2013

I, too, have a complaint about bust size. I feel the size is arbitrarily limited for an advanced society where anything is possible and any number of alien physiologies have been encountered. If I want to make a 4 foot tall female with a ZZZ cup size, I should have that option.

Also, I want the Gorn body sizing options unlocked for all characters. It's just not fair that my Bruce Banner character is dwarfed by Gorn.

jodarkrider · October 2013

hanover2 wrote: »

I, too, have a complaint about bust size. I feel the size is arbitrarily limited for an advanced society where anything is possible and any number of alien physiologies have been encountered. If I want to make a 4 foot tall female with a ZZZ cup size, I should have that option.

Also, I want the Gorn body sizing options unlocked for all characters. It's just not fair that my Bruce Banner character is dwarfed by Gorn.

Of course, people like you would appear, with totally not funny sarcasm... you have so many options, while the female characters do not have that luxury, because they will still look like Barbie dolls, no matter what settings are chosen, no matter the uniform/clothing they wear. I don't think that's fair at all and don't think that pointing it out warrants responses such as yours. It's funny, because all I ask for is a tad more androgynnous/muscular version of females, which is right now, totally not possible.

g0h4n4 · October 2013

hanover2 wrote: »

I, too, have a complaint about bust size. I feel the size is arbitrarily limited for an advanced society where anything is possible and any number of alien physiologies have been encountered. If I want to make a 4 foot tall female with a ZZZ cup size, I should have that option.

Also, I want the Gorn body sizing options unlocked for all characters. It's just not fair that my Bruce Banner character is dwarfed by Gorn.

So your character will using something else as legs, wow for the win

hanover · October 2013

jodarkrider wrote: »

Of course, people like you would appear, with totally not funny sarcasm... you have so many options, while the female characters do not have that luxury, because they will still look like Barbie dolls, no matter what settings are chosen, no matter the uniform/clothing they wear. I don't think that's fair at all and don't think that pointing it out warrants responses such as yours. It's funny, because all I ask for is a tad more androgynnous/muscular version of females, which is right now, totally not possible.

That wasn't sarcasm. I really want those things.

What you evidently want is a toon that is physically male, but with "female" appearing under their name, purely for the symbolism of it. Otherwise you could just give a male model a female name and alter as you see fit. Why stop there? Why not demand they add a third "I reject gender stereotypes and refuse to identify my plumbing because I am a unique little snowflake" gender option?
:rolleyes:

jodarkrider · October 2013

hanover2 wrote: »

That wasn't sarcasm. I really want those things.

What you evidently want is a toon that is physically male, but with "female" appearing under their name, purely for the symbolism of it. Otherwise you could just give a male model a female name and alter as you see fit. Why stop there? Why not demand they add a third "I reject gender stereotypes and refuse to identify my plumbing because I am a unique little snowflake" gender option?
:rolleyes:

Well, if you know Game of Thrones, check Brienne of Tarth (or just google her if you don't know the show) - she is as muscular/not feminine as it gets, and she's a real actor... and well, Tasha Yarr from Trek is not overly feminine either, in fact, she looks like a plank, even in the pyjamas tight uniform.. so why should we be limited to just one shape, just because some people think the way you do? Women come in different sizes and shapes too, you know. I simply want to be given an option to *pick* what I like... some people like overly curvy, feminine shapes, but I don't, and I hope I am not the only one, who thinks that there should be more shapes for female characters.

I mean, it won't hurt anyone, nobody would force you to use the less feminine/big breasted barbie... it's all about choice, a choice currently not available.

PS: Since you added that underhanded, jerk comment - it's not about being unique, it's about having a *choice*, if it's so hard to understand that, then well, there's no hope for you.

hanover · October 2013

I saw Denise Crosby naked in a movie once. She definitely has curves. Those TNG pyjamas just were not flattering.

And this: "Lobbying for reducing the bust sizes" sounds less like adding choices for you, and more like reducing choices for everyone else. I'm all for it if you want the slider to have more adjustment in both directions, but not if you want to adjust the whole scale downward.

I also still say that if you get your way, I want access to the full Gorn bulk setting on all toons. And the ability to change the appearance of unique BOFFS like Borg and Jem'hadar.

roxbad · October 2013

hanover2 wrote: »

That wasn't sarcasm. I really want those things.

What you evidently want is a toon that is physically male, but with "female" appearing under their name, purely for the symbolism of it.

I do not see that evinced in jodarkrider's posts. That appears to be something you have introduced from your own collection of social baggage.

Regardless. Real women exist with small TRIBBLE. It would be nice if, this game did not disenfranchise them by not being represented with a proper avatar.

Otherwise you could just give a male model a female name and alter as you see fit. Why stop there? Why not demand they add a third "I reject gender stereotypes and refuse to identify my plumbing because I am a unique little snowflake" option?
:rolleyes:

Why not? Maybe there should be an Androgynous category for character creation. There were most definitely at least one androgynous species in the canon.

hanover · October 2013

If you're truly going for an androgynous, then you should care less what "gender" label appears under your character's name, and more about which body/costume options suit your preference.

jodarkrider · October 2013

hanover2 wrote: »

I saw Denise Crosby naked in a movie once. She definitely has curves. Those TNG pyjamas just were not flattering.

And this: "Lobbying for reducing the bust sizes" sounds less like adding choices for you, and more like reducing choices for everyone else. I'm all for it if you want the slider to have more adjustment in both directions, but not if you want to adjust the whole scale downward.

I also still say that if you get your way, I want access to the full Gorn bulk setting on all toons. And the ability to change the appearance of unique BOFFS like Borg and Jem'hadar.

Well, then the uniforms should be able to at least cover the parts... which they don't (if you check STO screenshots), regardless of how loose they are supposed to be. But seriously, you are just being a jerk about it - get off your gender stereotype high horse please, and think of the fact that there are different people, with different tastes, as to how to represent themselves & their characters. I hope it's not as difficult for you.

hanover · October 2013

jodarkrider wrote: »

Well, then the uniforms should be able to at least cover the parts... which they don't (if you check STO screenshots), regardless of how loose they are supposed to be. But seriously, you are just being a jerk about it - get off your gender stereotype high horse please, and think of the fact that there are different people, with different tastes, as to how to represent themselves & their characters. I hope it's not as difficult for you.

:rolleyes:

Once again, I'm fine with giving you the appearance options you want, but not reducing my options to accommodate your demands.

jodarkrider · October 2013

hanover2 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Once again, I'm fine with giving you the appearance options you want, but not reducing my options to accommodate your demands.

Well, I didn't say reduce the upper slider size, maybe we just didn't understand each other - I simply want the lower size to be, well, properly flat. I thought I made it clear, that people should be able to make a choice, if they want a Pamela Anderson sized one, sure, but give me the flat option too. Hopefully it's clear now..?

suaveks · October 2013

Just ignore the trolls. Because I assure you, they'll be coming, for whatever reason, like in the previous thread.

As the creator of the forementioned thread I'll just say that I stand by my opinion expressed half a year ago. I'm not even saying the game should allow completely flat-chested characters, due to the whole "they'll look like children" argument, but at least should allow for a bit toned down sizes than they are currently.

I've posted screenshots of some of my characters and boffs with slider at minimum in this post. Since then I've created a Romulan female which also has the slider at minimum, yet her "assets" are still of considerable size.

And on a side note, I'm bored with all the busty avatars running around, quite frankly. Some of them even disgust me when maxed out, but that's more due to the overall STO character modeling, which just makes the bust look unnatural.

Cryptic's changing something with female character models on Tribble currently, but I'm not sure it has anything to do with bust. I don't have access to Tribble unfortunatelly so I can't check it out personally.

donperk · October 2013

I have to agree with the OP on this one. You can't get below a B+ cup size. And, according to various studies, B is the average cup size for adults in the U.S.A. (With an average band measurement of 34".) The idea that STOL doesn't allow you to create average or smaller TRIBBLE had me scratching my head when I started this game. I've come to accept it, but I don't like it.

Even odder is that the Alien category of characters, which allow for greater variations in attributes than the other species, also has this limitation of a minimum cup size that approaches C.

There may be technical costuming reasons for doing this, but it is certainly odd.

And I agree with the last post -- if the extremely large bust sizes had more natural fall to them, I could accept them. But the weird cone shape is... weird.

hanover · October 2013

jodarkrider wrote: »

Well, I didn't say reduce the upper slider size, maybe we just didn't understand each other - I simply want the lower size to be, well, properly flat. I thought I made it clear, that people should be able to make a choice, if they want a Pamela Anderson sized one, sure, but give me the flat option too. Hopefully it's clear now..?

If it doesn't affect other people, I don't care. I was perceiving a mentality of "I am special and demand options that suit my special-ness!" which I always find grating. If I got the wrong impression, I apologize.

hanover · October 2013

suaveks wrote: »

And on a side note, I'm bored with all the busty avatars running around, quite frankly. Some of them even disgust me when maxed out, but that's more due to the overall STO character modeling..

Well, tough t....I mean, too bad! :P

donperk wrote: »

And I agree with the last post -- if the extremely large bust sizes had more natural fall to them, I could accept them. But the weird cone shape is... weird.

So, more droop and bounce?

+1!!

jodarkrider · October 2013

hanover2 wrote: »

If it doesn't affect other people, I don't care. I was perceiving a mentality of "I am special and demand options that suit my special-ness!" which I always find grating. If I got the wrong impression, I apologize.

Well, no, no.. I am always a proponent of having a choice. I want people to be able to enjoy the game, with characters they want. So if a large busted female is what you want - fine. But let me play a muscular, close to androgynous female, because that's my personal preference and I shouldn't be any less than those who currently do have the choice of playing their pretty Barbies. So, the whole thread was about reducing the size of *lowest* bust part of slider, not reducing it altogether, to steal options from others, who might like the bigger ones.

donperk · October 2013

hanover2 wrote: »

So, more droop and bounce?

+1!!

If it looks more natural, sure.

It's these females walking around ESD trying to poke my eyes out that I find distasteful.

But, keeping to topic, the ability to express a AAA cup (plank flat) would be a more reasonable lower-bound than what we get today.

hanover · October 2013

Well...I can think of worse ways to lose an eye.... :P

Then you could get a wide-spectrum optical prosthetic and have a cool story to tell.

jodarkrider · October 2013

I've clarified the OP, to make sure that nobody thinks I want to reduce busts as a whole - instead I just want the minimum size of bust reduced to more flat version. For any misunderstandings, I apologize.

roxbad · October 2013

hanover2 wrote: »

So, more droop and bounce?

+1!!

I support this, too.

captz1pp · October 2013

I don't mean to offend anyone*, but how many sizes does that particular slider let an avatar have exactly?

(*if it does, feel free to remove this post moderators)

solidneutronium · October 2013

Not gonna happen OP. Cryptic wont let you create flat chested females because they don't want toons that look like children. They fear what some unsavory players might do. I don't blame them.

I'm in the bigger is better camp. Open the floodgates I say.

jodarkrider · October 2013

solidneutronium wrote: »

Not gonna happen OP. Cryptic wont let you create flat chested females because they don't want toons that look like children. They fear what some unsavory players might do. I don't blame them.

I'm in the bigger is better camp. Open the floodgates I say.

I specifically commented on the "children" argument, posting picture of Tasha Yarr, who looks very flat-chested and yet doesn't look like a child. That argument is totally invalid. Also, I can accept you like bigger ones, but don't be selfish and think of people who might not like it as such - it may be a cosmetic change, but there's nothing wrong about wanting to be represented the way it is nice to me, and perhaps (hopefully, damnit!!) several other, who want something decent and not as oversized...

I also don't see why decent people would have to suffer because there are couple of cavemen. It's really the same argument, why some things are done, to prevent cheating and other stuff. That's why there's a ban, if you want to get technical. And, looking at the structure of the character models, I even don't think any of it would look like a child, even if you downsized their height. Let alone, you can downsize males to small heights too.. do they look like children? No. Again, this argument is invalid. There are more ways to prevent that, than just forbid flat-chested females. The worst (best, yes plz) what'd happen (and yes, that'd be nice), that people could not distinguish my female from a male character.

daveyny · October 2013

Actually, a solution could be that They would tie the Hight of the female character, to a minimum range of chest sizes.

Say anything less than a 'C'-cup would be limited to minimum of 5' 6" height.

I just pulled those numbers outta my butt, but you get the idea.

:cool:

jodarkrider · October 2013

daveyny wrote: »

Actually, a solution could be that They would tie the Hight of the female character, to a minimum range of chest sizes.

Say anything less than a 'C'-cup would be limited to minimum of 5' 6" height.

I just pulled those numbers outta my butt, but you get the idea.

:cool:

Minimal size of the female character, human (well, I have a Betazoid, but I doubt it differs much) is like 1,68 meters. Which is not even close to children...but yeah, I'd rather have small restriction in height of the character, than not having a choice of shape in which my female character comes, when it comes to bust size.

oddboyout · October 2013

I agree with this petition! >:|

motokoisawa · October 2013

+1

Yes plz. I'd very much just like to go with 'athletic', and can't.

warpangel · October 2013

There is no point making rational arguments against the "they'd look like children" -issue. It doesn't matter if the characters would actually look like children or not, because the kind of people who make it their business to raise "controversy" over video games rarely bother to play them. The phrase "you can make a short, flat-chested female character" would be enough to set that crowd off.

Its perfectly understandable the company wants to avoid negative publicity.

Females & bust size slider problem

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