I used to PVP in this game quite a bit before the skillbox revamps and the NGE at F2P. However, after that, I found that whatever "great" build anyone comes up with doesn't really matter. There will be 10 NERF threads on your ship and build(s) and Cryptic devs will promptly NERF your toon, your ship, your power(s), and your build into oblivion.
Just not worth it in the long run. Better to keep the build to PVE only or play Anarchy Online and just read these forums once in a while for the entertainment factor. NPCs don't make NERF threads and inexperienced Cryptic developers can't miss-read and over-react.
As a PVP regular, I think PVP in today's STO requires a high "Price of Entry." For example, you need high or maxed out Reputation Tiers and as many passive / active boosts as possible. A new 50 will absolutely get massacred. And I'm excluding the learning curve one needs to work on when one is new to PVP.
This game suffers from Power Creep. And in PVP, if you are not participating fully in that Power Creep, you are at a significant disadvantage if skill between you and your opponent(s) are equal.
There also has been absolutely NO addition or enhancement to PVP ever since STO released in 2009. I left after the first 3-4 months of STO's release and PVP'ed alot in that time. I came back over a year ago, and I was astonished to see that PVP was exactly the same game state as it was in 2009. The big difference was that there were far, far fewer players PVP'ing and the KDF population dwindled drastically (at release, there WAS a very large KDF playerbase, but they left when it became clear Cryptic had no priority in fixing the faction). PVPers were still fighting the exact same Arena, C&H modes as well as Kerrat. PVPers were still fighting in the exact same, small handful of maps as 2009.
There is no variety. There is no incentive other than the experience of fighting something that isn't PVE Faceroll Difficulty.
You cannot blame the playerbase for the state of PVP if Cryptic has never watered that plant and left it to whither.
I agree objectives and rewards would help. Incentive to get into something in a game has to equal the amount of effort required.
However, 1400 dilithium for three matches, with a five to ten minute wait before each match currently, is apparently not enough incentive to pay for the hour you spend. This is about my average time spent on the Defera dilithium farm... err... missions.
Even the best rewards won't compensate players enough to sit through weeks of being pwned, though. Until we address that issue nothing will fix PvP. You could have free starships as the reward and nobody would try to claim them except the few hardheads like me.
But, with a learning curve instead of a learning cliff, (players introduced to PvP at low levels, who learn to use their ships competitively early in the game against their peers,) most of the other issues go away on their own.
Imbalance? You betcha. But if you're aware of the imbalance you can compensate. (Hoyle's law applies here, the game is fair if the rules are the same for everybody.)
Need incentive? You betcha. But all the incentive in the world won't attract players who hit their frustration limit and quit trying. There are other ways to get the stuff you'll be offered as incentive.
Elitist attitude? As has been demonstrated amply in this thread, that's a two-edged sword. There certainly are some elitist PvP'ers, but there are also many PvE'ers who take advice as insult and education as arrogance. You can't fix either one of those extremes, and those extremes are the minority. Accessibility for more players means those extremes get diluted on both ends.
There are a lot of issues with PvP, and they are addressed on various topics in the PvP thread. But even if Cryptic devoted a full season to correcting all these issues, there is one hurdle that players still will face: the vertical learning curve that slaps them in the face at level 50.
- cool appearance ground armor sets
- cool appearance space sets
- or even yet a pvp vendor with awesome loot in general
Items like,
pets, mounts (not until they make bigger zones that we could use them on) ect. Then yeah Id be totally down with pvp. Was a huge pvp player in my TOR days. Think I hit 76 *pvp rank* before I left to come back here.
I have played PvP for years but the only PvP I will play will have an objective in it. I especialy enjoy a good FPS thats well balanced, somthing like capture the flag, team king of the hill, attack and defend and those types of matches. I will not play a DM or a TDM. Other things i will not play is when you can rank up and get new and better weapons and is the reason i do not play modern FPS games except in single player.
PvP should always be that everything that can be used in it can be used the first time you join. No level up and get better gear. As long as you can use gear you get from leveling or from reputation i will not ever join a PvP in STO. Gear does matter and anyone saying it is skill alone is outright lying. Skill alone is when you and the opponent have the same exact gear choices.
The other reason I dont play PvP anymore is peoples attitudes, banter and teasing is OK but competitive PvP goes well beyond that and i am not interested in playing with someone who insults and berates teammates or opponents and that gets common in public PvP.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
I'll tell you how to fix PvP in this game. In Gran Turismo, there are races where you can set max horsepower. Then you can DEtune your car to fit under that HP cap. I dont PvP because I wont grind for the best gear. And without it you die FAST in this game.
But if EVERY bit of gear in this game was adjustable, had PvP Points assigned to every power in this game, (Ex. Tractor beams have X points at their max, exotic science damage has Y points, the ship weapons Z points) then let the players bring in ANY mix of powers they aquired in game, lockbox, whatever, but all the assets combined could not exceed the Point cap assigned for the match. So at least if I died, I knew that every player had the same max ability I had, they just mixed their powers up in a way that was better than me. If we can detune our ships, you can still have all the toys, you just have to chose which toys in your arsenal are going to be strong and which you have to dial back to fit under the cap. Then obviously the No Point Restriction matches that let you have max everything you own as it is now.
Then I could compete on an even playing field, even if a guy had a few abilities my ship didnt, I know his abilities somewhere on his ship are gimped to bring his ship overall equal to mine, and THATS a fair fight.
Cryptic can keep their power creep and lockbox agenda, but letting us detune things to fit under a cap can let the guy with 2 standard abilities be equal to a guy that has 3 or 4 lockbox abilities.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
had PvP Points assigned to every power in this game, (Ex. Tractor beams have X points at their max, exotic science damage has Y points, the ship weapons Z points) then let the players bring in ANY mix of powers they aquired in game, lockbox, whatever, but all the assets combined could not exceed the Point cap assigned for the match.
That what I suggest from the start. though I don't know if ship should be adjustable. I prefer that on fleet overhaul pattern. But for ground duel why not.
To answer Elysseum some 6 pages ago, Star Trek is a wonderful setting. The secondary realism can immerse player a lot. So we can do all type of pvp :
_ sport : on ground we can have all the tournament we see for our Doff (Battl'eh, Andorian, and unsanctionnad). This could be competitive with reward and balancing. For ship I guess there is some races.
_ War : war setting with lots of player with different gear is what make GW2 pvp very interesting. It is always full (at least when I was playing it). People feel involve in defending their castle and are not frown upon if not strong because the are just one more and one more is always good.
I dream of starbase assault (with a ground part) This could made for unequal battle.
Lastly, for those who want skill to be balance for pvp, i give you a big warning and a great NO. Guild war did that and it ends up with having different skill in pvp and pve and basically 2 games. A structured pvp and pve game (which include the war pvp). I don't want that again. This will far more limit the number of pve player going to pvp for the occasionnal fun.
- Look at the builds that have one single healing ability (usually HE) .
How much will that help when a Neghvar and a Raptor and a Cube are all pounding on you in CSE ?
- Make your Tac ship a speed Tank .
Has zipping around like a madman helped you to be better at an STF ?
No .
That just helps to evade the constant incoming fire in PVP .
- The PVP master would say : "Engineering Team ? Lol , use AUX2SiF !" .
Believe it or not , ET actually still works both in PVE and in PVP .
- The player called 'thissler' makes awesome PVP videos , but his hit & run style and build leaves him cloaked about 20-30% of a PVP game .
How would ppl see a player who stays that long under cloak in an STF .
In short , contrary to many a PVP-er's belief , "what's good for PVP is good for PVE" is not always true (IMHO) .
I just want to Pew Pew .
And when I see a ship that cannot be brought down by 3 or more players (non Sci) , I recall that it was not like this when I started to PVP 2.5 years ago .[/QUOTE]
Having only one single heal is a death sentence I would agree.
Learning to Speed Tank and keep your fire constant is the key there. Movement bonuses do not require you to always "zip all around" just be moving.
ET has its use but it conflicts with TT which is a No-No because TT is OP and Aux2SIF also gives resistance and anyone who understands Hull Tanking knows what that means.
I do agree you do not need and should not BE cloaked for long periods against the Borg.
I have been that Ship that refuses to die. It is fun. It is more fun that I also kill them for their attempt.
However the generalization does work to a degree. If you can murder well built enemy player ships and survive their assaults then your ship should be easily tough enough to mutilate everything PvE can throw at you.
Lastly, for those who want skill to be balance for pvp, i give you a big warning and a great NO. Guild war did that and it ends up with having different skill in pvp and pve and basically 2 games. A structured pvp and pve game (which include the war pvp). I don't want that again. This will far more limit the number of pve player going to pvp for the occasionnal fun.
PvP and PvE should be kept seperate, it is now since there are no open PvE/PvP areas where players who only PvE are forced to enter to do missions or simply to get to where the mission is at.
A simple change in the gear you have in a ship or on ground where the only thing that is the same as in PvE is the energy type you use, consoles and ground gear are set for every ship and career. boff skills and kit being the only variable would thus make PvP balanced where skill alone decides the victor.
That in itself would make balancing ships and gear far easier for developers so no more NERF IT threads from hell. The developers would then have more time to work on fresh new content and if the PvP side gets popular they might even invest in a dedicated PvP developer whos sole job is making new maps.
Also balanced skill only PvP would give PvP players who happen to be at the top of every PvP they do real bragging rights. No more OP this or that and top end gear that costs far more than any casual is willing to spend. No more using the best gear and experiance to kill every new player and call it skill.
But thats not all it should be, there should also be unrestricted PvP available as well a few unrestricted maps for those that want to compete to see who has the best build. new players need not apply thats what the restricted PvP is for. Private matches could be on any map and can be restricted or unrestricted with a simple checkbox when creating it.
Having a restricted pvP that is seperated from PvE would draw in new players to PvP because they can learn to be good at it without having to deal with hardcore pvP players with the most expensive builds. Having the unrestricted along with it allows veteran pvP players a place to test those builds.
PvP rewards could be gear, skills, and buffs for PvE and the unrestricted PvP that can only be obtained through PvP. That will draw more players to doing the restricted PvP, and many of those will eventualy start doing unrestricted when they get good at PvP and get good builds.
Everyone wins! Casual players can do PvP and hardcore PvPers can still have unrestricted.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
My point of view for any PvP, including here in STO:
- No respawn. If you lose a battle, you lose the ship.
- If you lose the ship, some of the consoles is lost too and some dropped as loot. Boffs killed or turned as POW (prisoners) and some lucky returned to the player.
The biggest laugh on the state of this game's PvP is that the difference between surviving for 5 seconds and a full minute is literally 2 abilities and a stupid keybind.
Seriously, without EPtS and TT you're going to be cleaned up so fast in PvP its pathetic, and does the game tell you this? NOPE! Plus, a keybind script being practically required (so you can chain your precious EPtS/TT and redistribute your shields 24/7) for higher level combat is just TRIBBLE.
If you don't need this, please review your setup and realize you're probably a mega-tank that doesn't need this TRIBBLE anyways.
My point of view for any PvP, including here in STO:
- No respawn. If you lose a battle, you lose the ship.
- If you lose the ship, some of the consoles is lost too and some dropped as loot. Boffs killed or turned as POW (prisoners) and some lucky returned to the player.
That would be a real fun PvP.
What is this, Eve Online? All this would do is drive away even more people from the PvP because they don't want to lose the consoles they spent 50$ on.
What is this, Eve Online? All this would do is drive away even more people from the PvP because they don't want to lose the consoles they spent 50$ on.
Besides the PvP issue with no risk, i think we need more death penalty on STF Elite, not only ship injuries. Like Boffs be killed or injuried, consoles and weapons destroyed... and maybe ammunition for cannons and limited torpedos too, for STF Elite.
The biggest laugh on the state of this game's PvP is that the difference between surviving for 5 seconds and a full minute is literally 2 abilities and a stupid keybind.
Seriously, without EPtS and TT you're going to be cleaned up so fast in PvP its pathetic, and does the game tell you this? NOPE! Plus, a keybind script being practically required (so you can chain your precious EPtS/TT and redistribute your shields 24/7) for higher level combat is just TRIBBLE.
If you don't need this, please review your setup and realize you're probably a mega-tank that doesn't need this TRIBBLE anyways.
What is this, Eve Online? All this would do is drive away even more people from the PvP because they don't want to lose the consoles they spent 50$ on.
+2 you don't really need key bind just clicking it doe the job, but EPts+TT is 1/2 the battle.
Also something as simple as going to option menu and turning spacebar into a spam distribute shields will turn a new player into a good player they were the whole time.
PVP players spends the more money than a pve'r player per player, DOFF are expensive,ships, selling box to get EC to buy Weapons.
Examples my Scimiitar
$50
$100 doff
$20 weapons
$10 BO
$180
Stf&Marks = priceless
My Karfi cost $250
I have no time to play the exchange but I seen people take $100 and turn it into billions of EC in the exchange over months.
A Jem fully set up would be in the $400
We are the ones who grind mine fields and starbase 24 for loot and get 1st place. We feed the Exchange. The Exchange it a lot thinner than this time last year. PVP'r are the bankers of sto some with billions of EC.
PvP most of the time carry new players in elite STF, we grind a lot guys on multi char. I only know pvpr who can solo elite STF
If this game was more balance and retained more of its pvp community it might have had a longer shelf life. We are gushing and its not just the pvp community anymore.
LoR should have brought more open map not just pvp but more explore zone for ground and it should of had some pvp update so it would retain what pvp community came back to check on sto but they saw no change after 3 years, Why would anyone come back to a game who never update something as simple&easy as a map or two.
We should stop separating pve from pvp and just say we all play STO and if its not well rounded. It will not live much longer and none of us want that.
Nova Core
ParadiseKiller
House of Beautiful Orions Zeadonouse ToLate
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I do agree that PvP does have a lot to be fixed, however I'm not really agreeing with the point some have been saying that you need to spend money to be good at PvP. You can earn Dilithium ingame to convert to zen and still buy stuff in the c-store.
I use the Wells Class Science Vessel on my main toon who is also my PvP toon and i didn't spend any real money to get. I farmed Dilithium, converted to c-store points/zen, bought keys, and sold those keys til I eventually had enough to get my ship on the exchange.
I don't have any luck with the lockboxes so I choose to just sell the keys and buy it on my own. Sure it took a while for me to get it, but in the end it was worth it and I love using it in PvP and it is one of my favorite ships in the game.
PvP also isn't something that everyone wants to do so I don't know how making it a requirement for players to get started in PvP will work out.
I would love to see PvP become more active, but that goes along with what I think a lot of people can agree with on, it needs to be fixed. One thing I would love to see is a sector that is open PvP as soon as you enter the space. I don't think that would happen, but it's an interesting thought for me at least or possibly new types of arena's (especially space because I love space PvP), where say, a space version of "capture the flag" but in this case, say ... capture the starbase?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
STO Member Since November 2010 | Tribbles are Friends NOT Food!
Besides the PvP issue with no risk, i think we need more death penalty on STF Elite, not only ship injuries. Like Boffs be killed or injuried, consoles and weapons destroyed... and maybe ammunition for cannons and limited torpedos too, for STF Elite.
This isn't EVE, and most people on this game don't want it to be. Your suggestion takes it far closer to that.
After reading through a lot of these posts, I think one of the major reasons a lot of people don't PvP is because of the misconceptions surrounding PvP.
For example, this whole "spending money" thing that people seem to be concerned about - My FedRom Sci has had $0 spent on it. No C-Store/lockbox/heck, there's not even any Fleet stuff on there. No Rep passives or gear either. Just standard run of the mill Blue Mk XI stuff that I could afford on the Exchange purely by EC earned through leveling.
1) Start PvP early, when powers and gear cannot be an issue.
starting at a low level will definitely create less obstacles but i thinks its better to work tiers. scoring a player individually so a player start out whit a basic score that improves (or deteriorates) based on that players performance in PvP. by selecting certain score ranges together into a tier players will always be facing an opponent whit the appropriate skill.
this will create a competitive system on its own because every hard-core PvPer wants to be number one (have the highest personal score)
2) Build it into the quests, so that players must participate in PvP to level up.
I hate PvP (not just in STO but in general) but I realize it's important to the health of the game. I agree you should create an incentive for a PvE player to do PvP like giving bonuses to PvE play or shops that can only be used when a faction has won enough victories.
I just don't want to be forced into it.
this is interesting. not as a way to separate top notch PvPers from noobs but as a system of creating different leagues. you would sill be paired bases on your personal score (see point 1) in a certain league but flying a tier 1 ship creates a different challenge when compared to a tier 6 ship.
4) Recruit successful PvP'ers to be trainers. (PvP Boot Camp is a great start.)
all my suggestions would require creating a completely new UI for PvP play incorporating boot camp is not a bad idea. i think the best way to do this is by modifying the fleet UI. the instructors would function like officers. they could then set a training session like a fleet event is done now but while every player can attend full is full, invite new and kick current instructors when needed. the idea is that the instructors will mostly manage themselves.
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Main issue Reputation TRIBBLE, gear, doff and lockbox/cstore requirements.
Second issue Cryptic never does anything for PVP, no content, no real purpose.
Third issue Most folks in this game simply arent real PVP material.
Even most folks that DO,pvp can barely handle the stress and constantly changing metagame and constantly crying so.
Main issue Reputation TRIBBLE, gear, doff and lockbox/cstore requirements.
Second issue Cryptic never does anything for PVP, no content, no real purpose.
Third issue Most folks in this game simply arent real PVP material.
Even most folks that DO,pvp can barely handle the stress and constantly changing metagame and constantly crying so.
Thats basically it.
Essentially correct, with a few modifications...
-Rep/gear/etc SHOULD make a difference, just not as much as it does when stacked.
-There is, a challenge. But that only works if the goal is realistically attainable.
-Folks are not PvP material because it is so drastically different from PvE.
-Yes, only those far ahead can keep up with the changes and new gear contantly added.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
This isn't EVE, and most people on this game don't want it to be. Your suggestion takes it far closer to that.
Ok, maybe it would be too harsh for STO...
So, instead of ship loss, how about random consoles and Boffs be disabled for 20h in case of death in PvP? If the player don't want to wait 20h, just pay the repair with dilithiun (or Zen).
Or maybe, Normal PvP and Elite PvP? :rolleyes:
Normal - no death penalty, just the usual friendly slapping.
Elite - Extreme death penalty (ship loss, console loss, Boffs killed)
So, instead of ship loss, how about random consoles and Boffs be disabled for 20h in case of death in PvP? If the player don't want to wait 20h, just pay the repair with dilithiun (or Zen).
Or maybe, Normal PvP and Elite PvP? :rolleyes:
Normal - no death penalty, just the usual friendly slapping.
Elite - Extreme death penalty (ship loss, console loss, Boffs killed)
PvP is already on life-support. Why would Cryptic spend any time on trying to make it *less* popular?
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
How about the possibility to declare war against other fleets. Raid enemy stations and capture resources from unfinished projects. Maybe capture the entire starbase and put to sell on exchange?
Fleets under war could do PvP anywhere, space or ground. Special interdictors ships with warp disruptors consoles able to drop out of warp enemy ships on sector space.
and we need friendly fire too, sometimes i want to shoot anyone on the field...
PvP is a crappy product b/c Cryptic Mgt has never put he proper resources into developing it. Most people don't like playing a crappy product. I'm just a stubborn lifer, so I still do in spite of it being a crappy product.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
It's not myth. It is the plain and simple truth based on observation (I do have PvE friends and have helped many get into PvP) and my own experience. At one point I was PvE only and could complete all the elite STF's with optionals no problem. I thought I had it all figured out. It was only once I got into PvP that I realized I had barely scratched the surface of what is possible in this game and that how I was currently set up/playing the game was completely inefficient.
If my horse looks so high to you, maybe it's because you're standing so low.
The first part of this post was actually cool. The second, is again, just insulting to plenty of people, it's all part & parcel of the mentality "I PvP so I'm better than you." Well, little hint to you, you PvP so you PvP. That's all it means. And from what I've observed, you're kind of attitude is very prevalent in the PvP community, and that's the highest part of why many, including myself, will never participate in PvP, past possible private queue's, with fleetmates. Because there, at least, there's a chance to fight, maybe win, maybe lose, depending on ability, but still at least hear, "Good game." That is honestly meant. Not just a ,"You suck, thanks noobzzzz." Most PvP'ers, honestly, are little more than trolls, with this attitude.
When I match off against someone, sure, I expect a little trash talk, it's all part of being human, and who we are. But at the end of the game, a little sportsmanship, whether you've won, or lost, is expected, no, demanded, by me, as part of the competition. Not a "I won, so you must suck and be a noob.", or if you lost, "Oh, you must be hacking, or be a cheater." If you tell me I suck, you better be prepared to back that up with HOW I suck, that may give me insights on how to be better. If I won, and you accuse me of cheating, you better be just as prepared to back that claim up as well.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Here is why I don't PvP. It is perhaps a unique reason, but others out there might feel the same.
I already did the PvP thing. In WoW. For three years. While I usually enjoyed it, I also found that it promoted a very hostile playing environment. Towards the end, I found that I would walk away from a gaming session angry, and this is not the emotional response I think I should have towards an activity I have regulated as "play".
After I moved away from WoW to other games, I found that I was much happier. One of the biggest reasons for that change was that I promised myself I would NOT do any PvP in my mmorpg's.
To each their own, but PvP really is not everyone's cup of tea.
After reading through a lot of these posts, I think one of the major reasons a lot of people don't PvP is because of the misconceptions surrounding PvP.
For example, this whole "spending money" thing that people seem to be concerned about - My FedRom Sci has had $0 spent on it. No C-Store/lockbox/heck, there's not even any Fleet stuff on there. No Rep passives or gear either. Just standard run of the mill Blue Mk XI stuff that I could afford on the Exchange purely by EC earned through leveling.
And you know what? It performs just fine in PvP.
This. I run a fairly economical setup in PvP. . .I just recently bought a Fleet Norgh after saving up some Zen and some EC to get it. On that Fleet Norgh, the only 'paid for' stuff I have is a Magnetometric Generator, which comes with a 1k zen C-store ship, and I've used that Generator on two different ships by now. I have an Impulse Capacitance Cell, but that's available to KDF off the exchange.
So, my by reckoning, I've 'spent' a possible 30 dollars on the thing, none of it directly out of my pocket. I still manage to do rather well in PvP, though I'm specifically set up for hit-and-run tactics with limited tanking.
The first part of this post was actually cool. The second, is again, just insulting to plenty of people, it's all part & parcel of the mentality "I PvP so I'm better than you." Well, little hint to you, you PvP so you PvP. That's all it means. And from what I've observed, you're kind of attitude is very prevalent in the PvP community, and that's the highest part of why many, including myself, will never participate in PvP, past possible private queue's, with fleetmates. Because there, at least, there's a chance to fight, maybe win, maybe lose, depending on ability, but still at least hear, "Good game." That is honestly meant. Not just a ,"You suck, thanks noobzzzz." Most PvP'ers, honestly, are little more than trolls, with this attitude.
When I match off against someone, sure, I expect a little trash talk, it's all part of being human, and who we are. But at the end of the game, a little sportsmanship, whether you've won, or lost, is expected, no, demanded, by me, as part of the competition. Not a "I won, so you must suck and be a noob.", or if you lost, "Oh, you must be hacking, or be a cheater." If you tell me I suck, you better be prepared to back that up with HOW I suck, that may give me insights on how to be better. If I won, and you accuse me of cheating, you better be just as prepared to back that claim up as well.
I have never experienced this attitude in PvP. Ever. Even assuming hyperbole to emphasize your point, this is simply a shameful lie.
He is not trying to insult you, he is saying, "There's a valley on the other side of this mountain you haven't seen yet, come check it out."
You really have to be hunting for an insult to find one in his post. As for insults in PvP, there is banter, usually between friends who have played together and against one another for some time, but by and large the only thing you will see is gg after a match, win, lose, or draw.
Comments
Just not worth it in the long run. Better to keep the build to PVE only or play Anarchy Online and just read these forums once in a while for the entertainment factor. NPCs don't make NERF threads and inexperienced Cryptic developers can't miss-read and over-react.
This game suffers from Power Creep. And in PVP, if you are not participating fully in that Power Creep, you are at a significant disadvantage if skill between you and your opponent(s) are equal.
There also has been absolutely NO addition or enhancement to PVP ever since STO released in 2009. I left after the first 3-4 months of STO's release and PVP'ed alot in that time. I came back over a year ago, and I was astonished to see that PVP was exactly the same game state as it was in 2009. The big difference was that there were far, far fewer players PVP'ing and the KDF population dwindled drastically (at release, there WAS a very large KDF playerbase, but they left when it became clear Cryptic had no priority in fixing the faction). PVPers were still fighting the exact same Arena, C&H modes as well as Kerrat. PVPers were still fighting in the exact same, small handful of maps as 2009.
There is no variety. There is no incentive other than the experience of fighting something that isn't PVE Faceroll Difficulty.
You cannot blame the playerbase for the state of PVP if Cryptic has never watered that plant and left it to whither.
However, 1400 dilithium for three matches, with a five to ten minute wait before each match currently, is apparently not enough incentive to pay for the hour you spend. This is about my average time spent on the Defera dilithium farm... err... missions.
Even the best rewards won't compensate players enough to sit through weeks of being pwned, though. Until we address that issue nothing will fix PvP. You could have free starships as the reward and nobody would try to claim them except the few hardheads like me.
But, with a learning curve instead of a learning cliff, (players introduced to PvP at low levels, who learn to use their ships competitively early in the game against their peers,) most of the other issues go away on their own.
Imbalance? You betcha. But if you're aware of the imbalance you can compensate. (Hoyle's law applies here, the game is fair if the rules are the same for everybody.)
Need incentive? You betcha. But all the incentive in the world won't attract players who hit their frustration limit and quit trying. There are other ways to get the stuff you'll be offered as incentive.
Elitist attitude? As has been demonstrated amply in this thread, that's a two-edged sword. There certainly are some elitist PvP'ers, but there are also many PvE'ers who take advice as insult and education as arrogance. You can't fix either one of those extremes, and those extremes are the minority. Accessibility for more players means those extremes get diluted on both ends.
There are a lot of issues with PvP, and they are addressed on various topics in the PvP thread. But even if Cryptic devoted a full season to correcting all these issues, there is one hurdle that players still will face: the vertical learning curve that slaps them in the face at level 50.
- cool appearance ground armor sets
- cool appearance space sets
- or even yet a pvp vendor with awesome loot in general
Items like,
pets, mounts (not until they make bigger zones that we could use them on) ect. Then yeah Id be totally down with pvp. Was a huge pvp player in my TOR days. Think I hit 76 *pvp rank* before I left to come back here.
PvP should always be that everything that can be used in it can be used the first time you join. No level up and get better gear. As long as you can use gear you get from leveling or from reputation i will not ever join a PvP in STO. Gear does matter and anyone saying it is skill alone is outright lying. Skill alone is when you and the opponent have the same exact gear choices.
The other reason I dont play PvP anymore is peoples attitudes, banter and teasing is OK but competitive PvP goes well beyond that and i am not interested in playing with someone who insults and berates teammates or opponents and that gets common in public PvP.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
But if EVERY bit of gear in this game was adjustable, had PvP Points assigned to every power in this game, (Ex. Tractor beams have X points at their max, exotic science damage has Y points, the ship weapons Z points) then let the players bring in ANY mix of powers they aquired in game, lockbox, whatever, but all the assets combined could not exceed the Point cap assigned for the match. So at least if I died, I knew that every player had the same max ability I had, they just mixed their powers up in a way that was better than me. If we can detune our ships, you can still have all the toys, you just have to chose which toys in your arsenal are going to be strong and which you have to dial back to fit under the cap. Then obviously the No Point Restriction matches that let you have max everything you own as it is now.
Then I could compete on an even playing field, even if a guy had a few abilities my ship didnt, I know his abilities somewhere on his ship are gimped to bring his ship overall equal to mine, and THATS a fair fight.
Cryptic can keep their power creep and lockbox agenda, but letting us detune things to fit under a cap can let the guy with 2 standard abilities be equal to a guy that has 3 or 4 lockbox abilities.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
That what I suggest from the start. though I don't know if ship should be adjustable. I prefer that on fleet overhaul pattern. But for ground duel why not.
To answer Elysseum some 6 pages ago, Star Trek is a wonderful setting. The secondary realism can immerse player a lot. So we can do all type of pvp :
_ sport : on ground we can have all the tournament we see for our Doff (Battl'eh, Andorian, and unsanctionnad). This could be competitive with reward and balancing. For ship I guess there is some races.
_ War : war setting with lots of player with different gear is what make GW2 pvp very interesting. It is always full (at least when I was playing it). People feel involve in defending their castle and are not frown upon if not strong because the are just one more and one more is always good.
I dream of starbase assault (with a ground part) This could made for unequal battle.
Lastly, for those who want skill to be balance for pvp, i give you a big warning and a great NO. Guild war did that and it ends up with having different skill in pvp and pve and basically 2 games. A structured pvp and pve game (which include the war pvp). I don't want that again. This will far more limit the number of pve player going to pvp for the occasionnal fun.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
- Look at the builds that have one single healing ability (usually HE) .
How much will that help when a Neghvar and a Raptor and a Cube are all pounding on you in CSE ?
- Make your Tac ship a speed Tank .
Has zipping around like a madman helped you to be better at an STF ?
No .
That just helps to evade the constant incoming fire in PVP .
- The PVP master would say : "Engineering Team ? Lol , use AUX2SiF !" .
Believe it or not , ET actually still works both in PVE and in PVP .
- The player called 'thissler' makes awesome PVP videos , but his hit & run style and build leaves him cloaked about 20-30% of a PVP game .
How would ppl see a player who stays that long under cloak in an STF .
In short , contrary to many a PVP-er's belief , "what's good for PVP is good for PVE" is not always true (IMHO) .
I just want to Pew Pew .
And when I see a ship that cannot be brought down by 3 or more players (non Sci) , I recall that it was not like this when I started to PVP 2.5 years ago .[/QUOTE]
Having only one single heal is a death sentence I would agree.
Learning to Speed Tank and keep your fire constant is the key there. Movement bonuses do not require you to always "zip all around" just be moving.
ET has its use but it conflicts with TT which is a No-No because TT is OP and Aux2SIF also gives resistance and anyone who understands Hull Tanking knows what that means.
I do agree you do not need and should not BE cloaked for long periods against the Borg.
I have been that Ship that refuses to die. It is fun. It is more fun that I also kill them for their attempt.
However the generalization does work to a degree. If you can murder well built enemy player ships and survive their assaults then your ship should be easily tough enough to mutilate everything PvE can throw at you.
PvP and PvE should be kept seperate, it is now since there are no open PvE/PvP areas where players who only PvE are forced to enter to do missions or simply to get to where the mission is at.
A simple change in the gear you have in a ship or on ground where the only thing that is the same as in PvE is the energy type you use, consoles and ground gear are set for every ship and career. boff skills and kit being the only variable would thus make PvP balanced where skill alone decides the victor.
That in itself would make balancing ships and gear far easier for developers so no more NERF IT threads from hell. The developers would then have more time to work on fresh new content and if the PvP side gets popular they might even invest in a dedicated PvP developer whos sole job is making new maps.
Also balanced skill only PvP would give PvP players who happen to be at the top of every PvP they do real bragging rights. No more OP this or that and top end gear that costs far more than any casual is willing to spend. No more using the best gear and experiance to kill every new player and call it skill.
But thats not all it should be, there should also be unrestricted PvP available as well a few unrestricted maps for those that want to compete to see who has the best build. new players need not apply thats what the restricted PvP is for. Private matches could be on any map and can be restricted or unrestricted with a simple checkbox when creating it.
Having a restricted pvP that is seperated from PvE would draw in new players to PvP because they can learn to be good at it without having to deal with hardcore pvP players with the most expensive builds. Having the unrestricted along with it allows veteran pvP players a place to test those builds.
PvP rewards could be gear, skills, and buffs for PvE and the unrestricted PvP that can only be obtained through PvP. That will draw more players to doing the restricted PvP, and many of those will eventualy start doing unrestricted when they get good at PvP and get good builds.
Everyone wins! Casual players can do PvP and hardcore PvPers can still have unrestricted.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
- No respawn. If you lose a battle, you lose the ship.
- If you lose the ship, some of the consoles is lost too and some dropped as loot. Boffs killed or turned as POW (prisoners) and some lucky returned to the player.
That would be a real fun PvP.
Seriously, without EPtS and TT you're going to be cleaned up so fast in PvP its pathetic, and does the game tell you this? NOPE! Plus, a keybind script being practically required (so you can chain your precious EPtS/TT and redistribute your shields 24/7) for higher level combat is just TRIBBLE.
If you don't need this, please review your setup and realize you're probably a mega-tank that doesn't need this TRIBBLE anyways.
What is this, Eve Online? All this would do is drive away even more people from the PvP because they don't want to lose the consoles they spent 50$ on.
Oh... that's a shame...
So, how about a US$ 9,000 ship?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/07/09/eve-online-player-loses-a-spaceship-worth-approximately-9000/
+2 you don't really need key bind just clicking it doe the job, but EPts+TT is 1/2 the battle.
Also something as simple as going to option menu and turning spacebar into a spam distribute shields will turn a new player into a good player they were the whole time.
PVP players spends the more money than a pve'r player per player, DOFF are expensive,ships, selling box to get EC to buy Weapons.
Examples my Scimiitar
$50
$100 doff
$20 weapons
$10 BO
$180
Stf&Marks = priceless
My Karfi cost $250
I have no time to play the exchange but I seen people take $100 and turn it into billions of EC in the exchange over months.
A Jem fully set up would be in the $400
We are the ones who grind mine fields and starbase 24 for loot and get 1st place. We feed the Exchange. The Exchange it a lot thinner than this time last year. PVP'r are the bankers of sto some with billions of EC.
PvP most of the time carry new players in elite STF, we grind a lot guys on multi char. I only know pvpr who can solo elite STF
If this game was more balance and retained more of its pvp community it might have had a longer shelf life. We are gushing and its not just the pvp community anymore.
LoR should have brought more open map not just pvp but more explore zone for ground and it should of had some pvp update so it would retain what pvp community came back to check on sto but they saw no change after 3 years, Why would anyone come back to a game who never update something as simple&easy as a map or two.
We should stop separating pve from pvp and just say we all play STO and if its not well rounded. It will not live much longer and none of us want that.
ParadiseKiller
House of Beautiful Orions
Zeadonouse
ToLate
I use the Wells Class Science Vessel on my main toon who is also my PvP toon and i didn't spend any real money to get. I farmed Dilithium, converted to c-store points/zen, bought keys, and sold those keys til I eventually had enough to get my ship on the exchange.
I don't have any luck with the lockboxes so I choose to just sell the keys and buy it on my own. Sure it took a while for me to get it, but in the end it was worth it and I love using it in PvP and it is one of my favorite ships in the game.
PvP also isn't something that everyone wants to do so I don't know how making it a requirement for players to get started in PvP will work out.
I would love to see PvP become more active, but that goes along with what I think a lot of people can agree with on, it needs to be fixed. One thing I would love to see is a sector that is open PvP as soon as you enter the space. I don't think that would happen, but it's an interesting thought for me at least or possibly new types of arena's (especially space because I love space PvP), where say, a space version of "capture the flag" but in this case, say ... capture the starbase?
STO Member Since November 2010 | Tribbles are Friends NOT Food!
This isn't EVE, and most people on this game don't want it to be. Your suggestion takes it far closer to that.
For example, this whole "spending money" thing that people seem to be concerned about - My FedRom Sci has had $0 spent on it. No C-Store/lockbox/heck, there's not even any Fleet stuff on there. No Rep passives or gear either. Just standard run of the mill Blue Mk XI stuff that I could afford on the Exchange purely by EC earned through leveling.
And you know what? It performs just fine in PvP.
starting at a low level will definitely create less obstacles but i thinks its better to work tiers. scoring a player individually so a player start out whit a basic score that improves (or deteriorates) based on that players performance in PvP. by selecting certain score ranges together into a tier players will always be facing an opponent whit the appropriate skill.
this will create a competitive system on its own because every hard-core PvPer wants to be number one (have the highest personal score)
I hate PvP (not just in STO but in general) but I realize it's important to the health of the game. I agree you should create an incentive for a PvE player to do PvP like giving bonuses to PvE play or shops that can only be used when a faction has won enough victories.
I just don't want to be forced into it.
this is interesting. not as a way to separate top notch PvPers from noobs but as a system of creating different leagues. you would sill be paired bases on your personal score (see point 1) in a certain league but flying a tier 1 ship creates a different challenge when compared to a tier 6 ship.
all my suggestions would require creating a completely new UI for PvP play incorporating boot camp is not a bad idea. i think the best way to do this is by modifying the fleet UI. the instructors would function like officers. they could then set a training session like a fleet event is done now but while every player can attend full is full, invite new and kick current instructors when needed. the idea is that the instructors will mostly manage themselves.
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Second issue Cryptic never does anything for PVP, no content, no real purpose.
Third issue Most folks in this game simply arent real PVP material.
Even most folks that DO,pvp can barely handle the stress and constantly changing metagame and constantly crying so.
Thats basically it.
Essentially correct, with a few modifications...
-Rep/gear/etc SHOULD make a difference, just not as much as it does when stacked.
-There is, a challenge. But that only works if the goal is realistically attainable.
-Folks are not PvP material because it is so drastically different from PvE.
-Yes, only those far ahead can keep up with the changes and new gear contantly added.
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
Ok, maybe it would be too harsh for STO...
So, instead of ship loss, how about random consoles and Boffs be disabled for 20h in case of death in PvP? If the player don't want to wait 20h, just pay the repair with dilithiun (or Zen).
Or maybe, Normal PvP and Elite PvP? :rolleyes:
Normal - no death penalty, just the usual friendly slapping.
Elite - Extreme death penalty (ship loss, console loss, Boffs killed)
PvP is already on life-support. Why would Cryptic spend any time on trying to make it *less* popular?
Fleets under war could do PvP anywhere, space or ground. Special interdictors ships with warp disruptors consoles able to drop out of warp enemy ships on sector space.
and we need friendly fire too, sometimes i want to shoot anyone on the field...
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
The first part of this post was actually cool. The second, is again, just insulting to plenty of people, it's all part & parcel of the mentality "I PvP so I'm better than you." Well, little hint to you, you PvP so you PvP. That's all it means. And from what I've observed, you're kind of attitude is very prevalent in the PvP community, and that's the highest part of why many, including myself, will never participate in PvP, past possible private queue's, with fleetmates. Because there, at least, there's a chance to fight, maybe win, maybe lose, depending on ability, but still at least hear, "Good game." That is honestly meant. Not just a ,"You suck, thanks noobzzzz." Most PvP'ers, honestly, are little more than trolls, with this attitude.
When I match off against someone, sure, I expect a little trash talk, it's all part of being human, and who we are. But at the end of the game, a little sportsmanship, whether you've won, or lost, is expected, no, demanded, by me, as part of the competition. Not a "I won, so you must suck and be a noob.", or if you lost, "Oh, you must be hacking, or be a cheater." If you tell me I suck, you better be prepared to back that up with HOW I suck, that may give me insights on how to be better. If I won, and you accuse me of cheating, you better be just as prepared to back that claim up as well.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I already did the PvP thing. In WoW. For three years. While I usually enjoyed it, I also found that it promoted a very hostile playing environment. Towards the end, I found that I would walk away from a gaming session angry, and this is not the emotional response I think I should have towards an activity I have regulated as "play".
After I moved away from WoW to other games, I found that I was much happier. One of the biggest reasons for that change was that I promised myself I would NOT do any PvP in my mmorpg's.
To each their own, but PvP really is not everyone's cup of tea.
This. I run a fairly economical setup in PvP. . .I just recently bought a Fleet Norgh after saving up some Zen and some EC to get it. On that Fleet Norgh, the only 'paid for' stuff I have is a Magnetometric Generator, which comes with a 1k zen C-store ship, and I've used that Generator on two different ships by now. I have an Impulse Capacitance Cell, but that's available to KDF off the exchange.
So, my by reckoning, I've 'spent' a possible 30 dollars on the thing, none of it directly out of my pocket. I still manage to do rather well in PvP, though I'm specifically set up for hit-and-run tactics with limited tanking.
I have never experienced this attitude in PvP. Ever. Even assuming hyperbole to emphasize your point, this is simply a shameful lie.
He is not trying to insult you, he is saying, "There's a valley on the other side of this mountain you haven't seen yet, come check it out."
You really have to be hunting for an insult to find one in his post. As for insults in PvP, there is banter, usually between friends who have played together and against one another for some time, but by and large the only thing you will see is gg after a match, win, lose, or draw.