It's not myth. It is the plain and simple truth based on observation (I do have PvE friends and have helped many get into PvP) and my own experience. At one point I was PvE only and could complete all the elite STF's with optionals no problem. I thought I had it all figured out. It was only once I got into PvP that I realized I had barely scratched the surface of what is possible in this game and that how I was currently set up/playing the game was completely inefficient.
If my horse looks so high to you, maybe it's because you're standing so low.
The first part of this post was actually cool. The second, is again, just insulting to plenty of people, it's all part & parcel of the mentality "I PvP so I'm better than you." Well, little hint to you, you PvP so you PvP. That's all it means. And from what I've observed, you're kind of attitude is very prevalent in the PvP community, and that's the highest part of why many, including myself, will never participate in PvP, past possible private queue's, with fleetmates. Because there, at least, there's a chance to fight, maybe win, maybe lose, depending on ability, but still at least hear, "Good game." That is honestly meant. Not just a ,"You suck, thanks noobzzzz." Most PvP'ers, honestly, are little more than trolls, with this attitude.
When I match off against someone, sure, I expect a little trash talk, it's all part of being human, and who we are. But at the end of the game, a little sportsmanship, whether you've won, or lost, is expected, no, demanded, by me, as part of the competition. Not a "I won, so you must suck and be a noob.", or if you lost, "Oh, you must be hacking, or be a cheater." If you tell me I suck, you better be prepared to back that up with HOW I suck, that may give me insights on how to be better. If I won, and you accuse me of cheating, you better be just as prepared to back that claim up as well.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Here is why I don't PvP. It is perhaps a unique reason, but others out there might feel the same.
I already did the PvP thing. In WoW. For three years. While I usually enjoyed it, I also found that it promoted a very hostile playing environment. Towards the end, I found that I would walk away from a gaming session angry, and this is not the emotional response I think I should have towards an activity I have regulated as "play".
After I moved away from WoW to other games, I found that I was much happier. One of the biggest reasons for that change was that I promised myself I would NOT do any PvP in my mmorpg's.
To each their own, but PvP really is not everyone's cup of tea.
After reading through a lot of these posts, I think one of the major reasons a lot of people don't PvP is because of the misconceptions surrounding PvP.
For example, this whole "spending money" thing that people seem to be concerned about - My FedRom Sci has had $0 spent on it. No C-Store/lockbox/heck, there's not even any Fleet stuff on there. No Rep passives or gear either. Just standard run of the mill Blue Mk XI stuff that I could afford on the Exchange purely by EC earned through leveling.
And you know what? It performs just fine in PvP.
This. I run a fairly economical setup in PvP. . .I just recently bought a Fleet Norgh after saving up some Zen and some EC to get it. On that Fleet Norgh, the only 'paid for' stuff I have is a Magnetometric Generator, which comes with a 1k zen C-store ship, and I've used that Generator on two different ships by now. I have an Impulse Capacitance Cell, but that's available to KDF off the exchange.
So, my by reckoning, I've 'spent' a possible 30 dollars on the thing, none of it directly out of my pocket. I still manage to do rather well in PvP, though I'm specifically set up for hit-and-run tactics with limited tanking.
The first part of this post was actually cool. The second, is again, just insulting to plenty of people, it's all part & parcel of the mentality "I PvP so I'm better than you." Well, little hint to you, you PvP so you PvP. That's all it means. And from what I've observed, you're kind of attitude is very prevalent in the PvP community, and that's the highest part of why many, including myself, will never participate in PvP, past possible private queue's, with fleetmates. Because there, at least, there's a chance to fight, maybe win, maybe lose, depending on ability, but still at least hear, "Good game." That is honestly meant. Not just a ,"You suck, thanks noobzzzz." Most PvP'ers, honestly, are little more than trolls, with this attitude.
When I match off against someone, sure, I expect a little trash talk, it's all part of being human, and who we are. But at the end of the game, a little sportsmanship, whether you've won, or lost, is expected, no, demanded, by me, as part of the competition. Not a "I won, so you must suck and be a noob.", or if you lost, "Oh, you must be hacking, or be a cheater." If you tell me I suck, you better be prepared to back that up with HOW I suck, that may give me insights on how to be better. If I won, and you accuse me of cheating, you better be just as prepared to back that claim up as well.
I have never experienced this attitude in PvP. Ever. Even assuming hyperbole to emphasize your point, this is simply a shameful lie.
He is not trying to insult you, he is saying, "There's a valley on the other side of this mountain you haven't seen yet, come check it out."
You really have to be hunting for an insult to find one in his post. As for insults in PvP, there is banter, usually between friends who have played together and against one another for some time, but by and large the only thing you will see is gg after a match, win, lose, or draw.
I have never experienced this attitude in PvP. Ever. Even assuming hyperbole to emphasize your point, this is simply a shameful lie.
He is not trying to insult you, he is saying, "There's a valley on the other side of this mountain you haven't seen yet, come check it out."
You really have to be hunting for an insult to find one in his post. As for insults in PvP, there is banter, usually between friends who have played together and against one another for some time, but by and large the only thing you will see is gg after a match, win, lose, or draw.
I think the 'worst offender' would be Ker'rat. Part of the fun of Ker'rat is trading jibes with other players and occasionally egging on a QQer complaining about cloaks or 'hackers' or whatever.
Here is why I don't PvP. It is perhaps a unique reason, but others out there might feel the same.
I already did the PvP thing. In WoW. For three years. While I usually enjoyed it, I also found that it promoted a very hostile playing environment. Towards the end, I found that I would walk away from a gaming session angry, and this is not the emotional response I think I should have towards an activity I have regulated as "play".
After I moved away from WoW to other games, I found that I was much happier. One of the biggest reasons for that change was that I promised myself I would NOT do any PvP in my mmorpg's.
To each their own, but PvP really is not everyone's cup of tea.
I'm pretty sure WoW was the problem there, WoW PvP mentality is not a high bar to overcome.
This isn't EVE, and most people on this game don't want it to be. Your suggestion takes it far closer to that.
I would love it if STO was more like Eve. Back when STO first came out I decided if I was going to pay $15 a month I'd rather Eve, despite the fact I had actually paid for the game. In my opinion EVE is simply the best MMO, especially when it comes to space.
with that said I would prefer to avoid losing items from PVP. This just means less people would be likely to play and that would be bad.
How about the possibility to declare war against other fleets. Raid enemy stations and capture resources from unfinished projects. Maybe capture the entire starbase and put to sell on exchange?
Fleets under war could do PvP anywhere, space or ground. Special interdictors ships with warp disruptors consoles able to drop out of warp enemy ships on sector space.
and we need friendly fire too, sometimes i want to shoot anyone on the field...
This should be in a "hardcore" option, disabled by default.
But honestly, this is NOT the way to go to attract more PVPers.
I am not sure. Arena Pvp is a sport. I think we can have tournament for ground as there are already lot for Doff.
But, the space Pvp in Arena or the strange capture and hold lack a purpose! You need a purpose to wage war and space pvp should be a war. So yes, allowing fleet to fight each other freely once the challenge is send is good.
Death should always mean return to Fleet Star base. Character and Ship don't die in this game (you can rename your character and respec it and change its appearance which is close to making another character).
Arena space battle seem ok within a faction as it is simulator battle. But between faction this should be military operation! Something must be at stake for people to be involved.
That come to the point that we need more map : Starbase assault, Cross the worm hole, Run the Gauntlet, planetary assault. With some consequences.
So, I guess the pvp problem is that there is too few people to develop it.
Too few people to develop it because too few play to interest the developers in developing it because so few want to play a crappy system that has remained crappy because so few want to develop it because so few play....
"Hey Jim, why don't you drive your truck?"
"'Cause it has a flat tire."
"Why don't you fix the tire?"
"Well, with a flat tire I can't drive the truck, and since I don't drive it I don't need to fix the tire."
Basically, Cryptic knows they have problems with PvP and they don't cater to the PvP crowd using the excuse that there are too few players to devote the effort needed to that. The idea here is to find a very easy way to get more players involved with PvP so that the ultimate issues the PvP community has known about for years will finally get some attention.
My proposal will require five very simple missions: log into a Tier I PvP and get a reward, log into a Tier II PvP and get a reward, log into a Tier III PvP and get a reward, log into a Tier IV PvP and get a reward, and drop down into a lower tier ship and enter a custom instance with a low tier player: when the low tier player can answer three PvP related questions get a reward.
It will also require four gated instances of the PvP maps which limit the tier of ship allowed in that instance.
I'm not a programmer, but I am sure this can be done because the framework for it is already in game. I'm betting even a marginally skilled programmer could do this and test it in a month.
The end result will be more players in PvP, and this in turn will mean more players buying those crappy ships for the consoles they have, more players buying Dilithium and Z-Store gear, and more players sticking with the game longer and encouraging even more players to jump in.
Only with more interest in PvP will Cryptic devote the resources to create more PvP content. The first step is getting more players, and my proposal is one simple, cheap solution to that problem. There are other proposals out there, and I don't wish to take anything away from any of them; they are good thoughts by smart, interested, and well meaning people, and they too deserve a look over to see if they can be used.
If Cryptic really has an interest in the bottom line, they should look over the gear the average PvP'er has and compare that to the most hard-core roleplayers. I'm willing to bet the PvP crowd spends more per person than any other segment of this game's population, and having more PvP'ers can only enhance Cryptic's bottom line.
To stay on the current course guarantees PvP will remain a marginal business for Cryptic. The goose that lays golden eggs is being starved, and thus it lays fewer eggs. It's not the fault of the goose. Why not try feeding it a little?
Too few people to develop it because too few play to interest the developers in developing it because so few want to play a crappy system that has remained crappy because so few want to develop it because so few play....
"Hey Jim, why don't you drive your truck?"
"'Cause it has a flat tire."
"Why don't you fix the tire?"
"Well, with a flat tire I can't drive the truck, and since I don't drive it I don't need to fix the tire."
Basically, Cryptic knows they have problems with PvP and they don't cater to the PvP crowd using the excuse that there are too few players to devote the effort needed to that. The idea here is to find a very easy way to get more players involved with PvP so that the ultimate issues the PvP community has known about for years will finally get some attention.
My proposal will require five very simple missions: log into a Tier I PvP and get a reward, log into a Tier II PvP and get a reward, log into a Tier III PvP and get a reward, log into a Tier IV PvP and get a reward, and drop down into a lower tier ship and enter a custom instance with a low tier player: when the low tier player can answer three PvP related questions get a reward.
It will also require four gated instances of the PvP maps which limit the tier of ship allowed in that instance.
I'm not a programmer, but I am sure this can be done because the framework for it is already in game. I'm betting even a marginally skilled programmer could do this and test it in a month.
The end result will be more players in PvP, and this in turn will mean more players buying those crappy ships for the consoles they have, more players buying Dilithium and Z-Store gear, and more players sticking with the game longer and encouraging even more players to jump in.
Only with more interest in PvP will Cryptic devote the resources to create more PvP content. The first step is getting more players, and my proposal is one simple, cheap solution to that problem. There are other proposals out there, and I don't wish to take anything away from any of them; they are good thoughts by smart, interested, and well meaning people, and they too deserve a look over to see if they can be used.
If Cryptic really has an interest in the bottom line, they should look over the gear the average PvP'er has and compare that to the most hard-core roleplayers. I'm willing to bet the PvP crowd spends more per person than any other segment of this game's population, and having more PvP'ers can only enhance Cryptic's bottom line.
To stay on the current course guarantees PvP will remain a marginal business for Cryptic. The goose that lays golden eggs is being starved, and thus it lays fewer eggs. It's not the fault of the goose. Why not try feeding it a little?
You think that PvP is the goose that lays the golden eggs? That's been proven false many times. The same thing happens in most MMOs. PvPers complain that not enough resources are being spent on PvP, and that the company would make a ton of money if only they improved PvP. If the company makes the mistake of trying to actually do it, they then find that nothing improves, and the PvPers continue to complain that the company "did it wrong."
The fundamental fact is this - "good RPG progression system" and "good PvP" are orthogonal. You can't have both and the money is in the former.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
If you make a broken product and nobody buys it, you can't assume that nobody wants the product. They may simply want one that isn't broken.
Wold of Tanks makes a mint on a game that is nothing but PvP. There is a large audience for this genre of game. What is lacking, and what makes WoT so outstanding in this field, is that there are very few MMOG's which have implemented PvP in anything like a balanced and effective manner.
STO is in the position to have both RPG and PvP. The basic system for starship combat is one of the best out there. But Cryptic does nothing to teach those who want to PvP how to do it. Players try, get frustrated, and quit.
If you personally don't want to PvP, then don't. But please don't assume that because you don't want it nobody does.
P.S. When cellular phones first came out they were a joke. A very expensive, boxy, complicated instrument reserved for people who wanted to look like they were important enough to need one. Had you taken a poll in 1979 you would have discovered that almost nobody wanted one. When they became smaller, more reliable, and cheaper to own, suddenly everyone wanted them. So long as you are stuck in the mindset of what used to be, you will never discover what could be.
Wold of Tanks makes a mint on a game that is nothing but PvP. There is a large audience for this genre of game. What is lacking, and what makes WoT so outstanding in this field, is that there are very few MMOG's which have implemented PvP in anything like a balanced and effective manner.
Eldar Scrolls makes a mint in single player RPG equal to World of Tanks for each title. 100% single player story driven no PvP. PvP is better sold in FPS, RTS, and sim markets than any RPG including MMORPG. In any MMORPG PvP is an atraction for a subset of players and not the main game.
i do completely agree PvP in any MMO lacks complete balance and that ofcourse turns anyone who is interested in it that is a normaly PvE player away. Balance in MMO games turn me away and I quite enjoy balanced PvP just as much as I enjoy a SP RPG.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Eldar Scrolls makes a mint in single player RPG equal to World of Tanks for each title. 100% single player story driven no PvP. PvP is better sold in FPS, RTS, and sim markets than any RPG including MMORPG. In any MMORPG PvP is an atraction for a subset of players and not the main game.
i do completely agree PvP in any MMO lacks complete balance and that ofcourse turns anyone who is interested in it that is a normaly PvE player away. Balance in MMO games turn me away and I quite enjoy balanced PvP just as much as I enjoy a SP RPG.
Yes, PvE players would much rather have the 'imbalance' in their favor, instead. Pitting players against an unintelligent and simplistic NPC AI is not 'balanced', especially not in this game.
I don't think the 'unbalanced' nature of PvP is really what drives people away. I tend to believe it's a combination of difficulty (as other players aren't mindless drones to be pew-pew'd to death), lack of rewards, and lack of options that does it. I am not a person who PvPs a lot, and most of my gaming experience is in singleplayer games. . .yet I PvP a lot in this game. Best way I can describe it is that it's fun, and that mindlessly repeating the same PvE missions to grind for a particular goal is not fun.
When other MMOs implement PvP, it's either poorly implemented due to the limitations of the mechanics, or it's not given the scope it really needs to be a true part of the game, and is thus treated as something separate.
Then you have never done any proper PvP if you think STO does it right compared to all MMO games.
And PvE players enjoy challenge just as much as PvP, PvE players want enemies with teeth that can fight back. But then again How would I know since i play PvP and PvE just not in this game.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Yes, PvE players would much rather have the 'imbalance' in their favor, instead. Pitting players against an unintelligent and simplistic NPC AI is not 'balanced', especially not in this game.
I don't think the 'unbalanced' nature of PvP is really what drives people away. I tend to believe it's a combination of difficulty (as other players aren't mindless drones to be pew-pew'd to death), lack of rewards, and lack of options that does it. I am not a person who PvPs a lot, and most of my gaming experience is in singleplayer games. . .yet I PvP a lot in this game. Best way I can describe it is that it's fun, and that mindlessly repeating the same PvE missions to grind for a particular goal is not fun.
When other MMOs implement PvP, it's either poorly implemented due to the limitations of the mechanics, or it's not given the scope it really needs to be a true part of the game, and is thus treated as something separate.
Don't pretend that PvE players are alone in wanting imbalance in their favor. PvP players are even worse, just look at any game with open-world PvP and you'll see total gank-fests.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
I'm not asking for open world PvP, though some others are. I'm asking that the system currently available be tiered for lower levels so they can get into PvP before the complexity issue smacks them in the face, and they can learn gradually as they develop their character. This will separate them from the 'gank fests' as well, because those guys with the skillz, gear, and attitude, are up in the top tier, far away from where the newb will be.
As for RPG vs. PvP, why do we have to choose only one? Both can easily be implemented in STO using the existing mechanics. Wouldn't a game that draws upon two customer pools do better than one which caters only to one at the expense of the other?
As for RPG vs. PvP, why do we have to choose only one? Both can easily be implemented in STO using the existing mechanics. Wouldn't a game that draws upon two customer pools do better than one which caters only to one at the expense of the other?
You can have both. As long as you are willing to accept unbalanced PvP, which will also marginalize the number of players for it. Or alternatively, accept the idea of an RPG without meaningful character advancement, which I think the majority of PvE players will *not* be on board with.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
The OP suggested PvP be part of advancing a character. Dumb idea. Fastest way I know to get me to stop playing STO at all or recommend the game to anyone else. I'm guessing I'm not the only one who thinks this, just someone who says it out loud.
Tried PvP. Didn't care for it. Too few maps. Too many elitists. Too much "L2P", "P2W" and "n00b!" Too small a reward for the effort. Don't really feel like I am being cheated out of anything by not doing PvP. Don't think I simply must PvP in order to be a "real" STO player either.
If the PvP crowd wants PvP repaired, then start with knocking off the attitude which everyone who tries it for the first time gets greeted with they wander into PvP. Beginning with phraseology.
I consider the term "n00b" as disgusting and offensive as the other N-word.
You want me to stick around? Fine. Make it worth my time. Make it enjoyable. PvP Bootcamp is a start. But it is only a start. Stop looking down your nose at me because I chose to not do PvP. Stop raising such a hue and cry over anything new which is added to the ships. This forum is overrun with threads asking the Dev Team to nerf or remove something because it ruins PvP. Unfortunately, the Devs have listened far too much in the past. And above all, stop presenting yourselves as the saviors of STO. You're just regular peons like all the rest of us. And I can guarantee I've spent just as much money on this game in the last six months as you have.
I enjoy PvP and even I hate when my side is up 12-0 and starts spawn camping/gloating. It really is lame. However, there is no age requirement on the game so any online game will have keyboard jockeys and/or 12 year olds playing. You just need thicker skin.
Its especially amusing being told I need to learn to play from a JHAS ship or time ship. You just roll your eyes at those clowns. And BTW guys taking premades into PUGs your just as lame even if you are polite. Most of the time your in recluses, bugs, and timeships and on TS or Vent. You know good and well your not about to get any competitiong unless you run into another premade. Some of these guys are the same players trying to "save PvP". No, your part of the problem. Your not saving squat.
As for RPG vs. PvP, why do we have to choose only one? Both can easily be implemented in STO using the existing mechanics. Wouldn't a game that draws upon two customer pools do better than one which caters only to one at the expense of the other?
Because RPG elements of MMOs ruin the equal playing field of PvP. Back in the day I played Dark Ages of Camleot (stupid profanity filter doesn't like acronyms) where a toon had zero chance against an opponent more than 3 levels above him. The whole system was built on inherent bonuses based on the level disparity between a player vs. mob/player. Introdue lewt gear and its the haves vs. the have-nots. All things being equal 2 players could have a good dual if everything was equal. However, most to the time it was not and teams won via the assist train.
In contrast, I played SFC 2 around the same time where ships were set in stone with their weapons/power/etc. Now it was more about player skill because there was no way to upset the balance outside of using a higher level ship than your opponent. I could jump in at any time and set a up a match with other players and assuming skill disparity wasn't that great the match would be even with either player able to win.
STO a bug ship shows up and your in a b'rel/qin/patrol escort --> bug wins 9/10 times if the player is even remotely close in skill level. Add to that the fact that most bugs have elite fleet gear + purple mk xii tac consoles and its all over before it ever began. Lobi ships and the Elite Fleet Gear are a big part of the problem. It took me a long time before I could even compete with a bug, let alone kill one. And that took a fair amount (read ridiculous amount of hours) of grinding. Honestly, why do I have to do endless grinding just to compete in a game. Thats ******* stupid if you think about it, it's a game. The playing field should be even because the point is to have fun; not grind first or pay hundreds of dollars and then to have fun later. :rolleyes: Take those two sources out of the equation and PvP would be more competitive and more interesting as a result. Still have to learn how to PvP but its more encouraging to try again if you stood a chance before the game even started.
Then you have never done any proper PvP if you think STO does it right compared to all MMO games.
And PvE players enjoy challenge just as much as PvP, PvE players want enemies with teeth that can fight back. But then again How would I know since i play PvP and PvE just not in this game.
Uhm...
I don't really agree. Not about wanting PvE enemies to actually be difficult (that isn't just huge piles of health and one-shot damage), I DO want that actually. Would make PvE interesting and do the game a breath of fresh air. There are plenty as well who would love to have more honestly difficult and challenging PvE content, including some PvPers I feel are also a part of that group. It'd still be an AI program, true, but there's been tons of tough-as-nails games in the past and present, and probably the future as well.
But what I mean is that there are a LOT of people as well who don't want more difficult PvE content. Be it either because they simply do not really know how the game works all that well, or they don't want it because they like being the 'hero' and saving the day.
Hence the terms of 'PvE heroes' and 'Kirking' have come into existence.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
True, people are heroes in PVE where as they are no heroes in pvp (merely dead one like in real life).
Someone Quote SFC 2 : this game, based on Starfleet Battles, has point value to balance fleet. This is how the pvp in SFC work. You can have 2 players in Dreadnought against 4 in frigate.
People think that RPG progression is orthogonal to pvp balance. As it is implemented this is true because both are poorly implemented and are misunderstood.
Level in RPG was there to represent the combat hability of the character. The player skill had nothing to do in battle (in D&D a player with a fighter only chose his target, the rest is pure luck, level and gear. No skill because level IS skill). So PvP in a RPG setting is basically solved by the side with more level win and this is what the designer of the time expect. RPG was about Roleplay. Player roleplay and the level is there asset if a combat occur. Player skill does not matter a lot for combat. They manage the combat, they don't do it. There was no max level TRIBBLE (the max was either not reachable or an extension expend it, or it was really end game, create a new character).
BUT in today MMOG we speak of player skill ?!? if the character ability to fight is the player skill then level are useless. All the RPG advancement loss its meaning. More we all reach max level in less than a month of casual playing which mean that all design around the advancement is meaningless as we will really play the game at max level. So why bother with all the level? The low level item (mark I to IX) are just useless. I don't understand why they exist at all. Why an ensign player cannot use a mark XI phaser pistol when an ensign brdige officer can if the player is higher level?
Pvp need not to be balance. We all like to fight the big monster, so do we like to fight strong foe in PvP but it need to be interesting and not a sure lose each time. For that low level/unskill player must be able to gang on stronger player. This is how MMORPG successfull pvp work. The kind that involve every body.
For sport pvp you need real balance, this is hard. And you need to rank player like in Street fighter so unskilled battl'eh player don't fight the top warrior. You don't put a young boxer of 60 kg again Mike Tyson (at least not before he get used to the ring).
Don't pretend that PvE players are alone in wanting imbalance in their favor. PvP players are even worse, just look at any game with open-world PvP and you'll see total gank-fests.
That's called 'tactics' and 'coordinating attacks'. That's supposed to happen, as PvP is a team sport. Given the imbalance of defense compared to offensive firepower in this game, it's sometimes necessary. It's recommended that you not fly alone in open-world PvP for just that reason. Heaven forbid should people have to take the smart approach to things.
I don't really agree. Not about wanting PvE enemies to actually be difficult (that isn't just huge piles of health and one-shot damage), I DO want that actually. Would make PvE interesting and do the game a breath of fresh air. There are plenty as well who would love to have more honestly difficult and challenging PvE content, including some PvPers I feel are also a part of that group. It'd still be an AI program, true, but there's been tons of tough-as-nails games in the past and present, and probably the future as well.
But what I mean is that there are a LOT of people as well who don't want more difficult PvE content. Be it either because they simply do not really know how the game works all that well, or they don't want it because they like being the 'hero' and saving the day.
Hence the terms of 'PvE heroes' and 'Kirking' have come into existence.
Agreed. The instant a mission, especially a storyline mission, becomes inherently difficult (such as Defense of New Romulus), people start howling and moaning left and right about how 'unbeatable' it is, when all that's required is some basic tactics and timing. They can't dive in head-first and pew-pew everything to death, so they complain. The mission then gets nerfed.
Agreed. The instant a mission, especially a storyline mission, becomes inherently difficult (such as Defense of New Romulus), people start howling and moaning left and right about how 'unbeatable' it is, when all that's required is some basic tactics and timing. They can't dive in head-first and pew-pew everything to death, so they complain. The mission then gets nerfed.
With the way the game is, simply using Cannon: Scatter Volley and Torpedo Spread will wipe away most mobs and complete nearly all missions. Some require a second cycling of the buffs, but that's it.
If the AI were tougher and required players to think (using defensive abilities, positioning, debuffs, etc), the general PvE population's skill would improve - then they wouldn't freak out, cry, and never return to PvP when they Kirk on in and get wiped in 2 seconds when they take on an entire enemy team without using balancing shields.
The only real problems with PvP in STO now are that players all jump into the same pool no matter if they are beginner swimmers or Olympic competitors, and that new players are not introduced to the mechanics of the game in any depth while leveling. All the rest of the issues are serious issues: balance, content, developer time, etc., but they do not actually stand in the way of players becoming interested in the PvP aspect of the game the way the vertical learning curve does.
My post is one way to address the core issue, player training, which will make almost every other aspect of the argument irrelevant. For example, those who complain about the PvP'er in the bug ship with Mk XII purple gear will not face those ships until they themselves have had an opportunity to acquire the gear and to learn to support their gear choices with the other aspects of the game such as build, skills, and powers usage.
Those who argue there is a fundamental opposition between RPG and PvP have missed the boat entirely on this topic: the framework of STO PvP is already there, and it works. All that is needed is player training in an environment that does not result in repeated instant slaughter. Perhaps, if players were introduced to PvP at level 10, they would have the skills to enter Kerrat without being pwned by those nasty evil Klinks when they reach that stage of the game.
Players who PvP, as can be seen by the numbers of bugships and consoles and other Z store items, support Cryptic. While I cannot prove it, I believe on average they spend more per person than roleplayers. Increasing the number of PvP'ers cannot harm Cryptic's bottom line, because PvP'ers are also PvE'ers. Players who PvP at the high levels cannot become complacent with their build or gear because the next item that goes up for sale will be used, and they will need to keep up.
There are no serious mechanical issues standing in the way of implementing the proposal I have offered. The ability to downgrade equipment and nerf player skills due to the rank of their teammates is already there in the level matching feature, so when a high level drops down to participate in a tier I match his gear, no matter how expensive or what color, will be no better than the low level guys. This will create 'fair fights' which so many complain they cannot get in PvP without hampering the top end PvP'ers who have all the elite gear and ships.
This game is not D&D, or WoW, or any other game past or present. It does not operate by the same ruleset or on the same engine. The engine STO has works fine for PvP, even with the 'broken' gear and powers. PvP'ers learn and adapt and go into the queues time and time again with all these issues now. No major overhaul is needed: this is not a daunting task.
Finally, to those who do not like PvP: I'm sorry you feel that way. I'd like to show you that PvP can be fun, but if you don't want it then have fun playing the game your way. But none of what I proposed interferes with your game whatsoever. You will not miss out on a single tea party or new mission. This will not interfere with your daily grind, nor will it impact the new Featured Episodes or expansions. In short, if you don't want to PvP you can safely ignore that whole segment of the game. Why would any dedicated PvE'er care enough to stand up in opposition to making PvP more accessible?
It's not an either/or situation. We can have pie and cake using what we have now, with a very minor bit of developer involvement. Certainly less involvement than was necessary to create Nukara.
PvP should be available the second you exit the tutorial zone and talk to the admiral but should NOT be mandatory to level. If someone enjoys OPvP then they could start learning STO's PvP mechanics right away and have 50 levels they can train in. Just have no XP reward for completion so playing PvE is faster leveling so they would do the story missions too. PvP would be an increase in XP for the kills but a good way to get dilithium while doing the normal PvE would be the better way to gain levels. Starting PvE at endgame or any level besides level 1 makes no sense, why hold it back? It doesnt improve it and definatly makes for some bad PvP players to start.
PvP needs to be balanced, either thats having to pick a ship and weapon layout and not able to change it or puting a cap on damage and defense. Either way that would remove OP ships and gear from the queued PvP. This is where the competitive PvP and the casual PvP belongs. Competitive sports have limits on what can be used so it is fair for all competing and this would be better for casuals as they wont have to go against better gear.
PvP needs to have a seperate free for all where you can use your own build with as much defense and damage you can get but that should not be the queued events. An open Pvp zone and private matches is where this belongs. This is where the bugship with fleet and rep gear is tested against other top end ships.
Do those 3 things and PvP will get more players. 1 training from day 1. 2 a level PvP for everyone, and 3 an open PvP where anything goes. Thats PvP for both casual and hardcore PvP players and across all levels where you learn to do it before you reach endgame. Evryone wins.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
The only thing I would add is that PvP should be completely avoidable for those that want nothing to do with it.
I don't think there's many PvP players that would really advocate 'forcing' people to PvP. That's the last thing most serious PvPers want, since that will just lead to AFKers and a lot of TRIBBLE-poor PvPers clogging the system. I'd say most PvPers really just want there to be an actual system of incentives to make PvP a viable method of gathering important resources (dilithium, reputation marks, EC, etc), along with more play options (i.e., more maps and game modes). I can spend 4 hours in Ker'rat blowing people up and earn nothing but boff skillpoints. I'll have fun, but I won't be advancing any of the reputation systems and I won't earn nearly as much dilithium or EC as I would have if I had spent the time grinding eSSTFs and other routine, boring PvE missions.
Comments
The first part of this post was actually cool. The second, is again, just insulting to plenty of people, it's all part & parcel of the mentality "I PvP so I'm better than you." Well, little hint to you, you PvP so you PvP. That's all it means. And from what I've observed, you're kind of attitude is very prevalent in the PvP community, and that's the highest part of why many, including myself, will never participate in PvP, past possible private queue's, with fleetmates. Because there, at least, there's a chance to fight, maybe win, maybe lose, depending on ability, but still at least hear, "Good game." That is honestly meant. Not just a ,"You suck, thanks noobzzzz." Most PvP'ers, honestly, are little more than trolls, with this attitude.
When I match off against someone, sure, I expect a little trash talk, it's all part of being human, and who we are. But at the end of the game, a little sportsmanship, whether you've won, or lost, is expected, no, demanded, by me, as part of the competition. Not a "I won, so you must suck and be a noob.", or if you lost, "Oh, you must be hacking, or be a cheater." If you tell me I suck, you better be prepared to back that up with HOW I suck, that may give me insights on how to be better. If I won, and you accuse me of cheating, you better be just as prepared to back that claim up as well.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I already did the PvP thing. In WoW. For three years. While I usually enjoyed it, I also found that it promoted a very hostile playing environment. Towards the end, I found that I would walk away from a gaming session angry, and this is not the emotional response I think I should have towards an activity I have regulated as "play".
After I moved away from WoW to other games, I found that I was much happier. One of the biggest reasons for that change was that I promised myself I would NOT do any PvP in my mmorpg's.
To each their own, but PvP really is not everyone's cup of tea.
This. I run a fairly economical setup in PvP. . .I just recently bought a Fleet Norgh after saving up some Zen and some EC to get it. On that Fleet Norgh, the only 'paid for' stuff I have is a Magnetometric Generator, which comes with a 1k zen C-store ship, and I've used that Generator on two different ships by now. I have an Impulse Capacitance Cell, but that's available to KDF off the exchange.
So, my by reckoning, I've 'spent' a possible 30 dollars on the thing, none of it directly out of my pocket. I still manage to do rather well in PvP, though I'm specifically set up for hit-and-run tactics with limited tanking.
I have never experienced this attitude in PvP. Ever. Even assuming hyperbole to emphasize your point, this is simply a shameful lie.
He is not trying to insult you, he is saying, "There's a valley on the other side of this mountain you haven't seen yet, come check it out."
You really have to be hunting for an insult to find one in his post. As for insults in PvP, there is banter, usually between friends who have played together and against one another for some time, but by and large the only thing you will see is gg after a match, win, lose, or draw.
I think the 'worst offender' would be Ker'rat. Part of the fun of Ker'rat is trading jibes with other players and occasionally egging on a QQer complaining about cloaks or 'hackers' or whatever.
I'm pretty sure WoW was the problem there, WoW PvP mentality is not a high bar to overcome.
I would love it if STO was more like Eve. Back when STO first came out I decided if I was going to pay $15 a month I'd rather Eve, despite the fact I had actually paid for the game. In my opinion EVE is simply the best MMO, especially when it comes to space.
with that said I would prefer to avoid losing items from PVP. This just means less people would be likely to play and that would be bad.
This should be in a "hardcore" option, disabled by default.
But honestly, this is NOT the way to go to attract more PVPers.
But, the space Pvp in Arena or the strange capture and hold lack a purpose! You need a purpose to wage war and space pvp should be a war. So yes, allowing fleet to fight each other freely once the challenge is send is good.
Death should always mean return to Fleet Star base. Character and Ship don't die in this game (you can rename your character and respec it and change its appearance which is close to making another character).
Arena space battle seem ok within a faction as it is simulator battle. But between faction this should be military operation! Something must be at stake for people to be involved.
That come to the point that we need more map : Starbase assault, Cross the worm hole, Run the Gauntlet, planetary assault. With some consequences.
So, I guess the pvp problem is that there is too few people to develop it.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
"Hey Jim, why don't you drive your truck?"
"'Cause it has a flat tire."
"Why don't you fix the tire?"
"Well, with a flat tire I can't drive the truck, and since I don't drive it I don't need to fix the tire."
Basically, Cryptic knows they have problems with PvP and they don't cater to the PvP crowd using the excuse that there are too few players to devote the effort needed to that. The idea here is to find a very easy way to get more players involved with PvP so that the ultimate issues the PvP community has known about for years will finally get some attention.
My proposal will require five very simple missions: log into a Tier I PvP and get a reward, log into a Tier II PvP and get a reward, log into a Tier III PvP and get a reward, log into a Tier IV PvP and get a reward, and drop down into a lower tier ship and enter a custom instance with a low tier player: when the low tier player can answer three PvP related questions get a reward.
It will also require four gated instances of the PvP maps which limit the tier of ship allowed in that instance.
I'm not a programmer, but I am sure this can be done because the framework for it is already in game. I'm betting even a marginally skilled programmer could do this and test it in a month.
The end result will be more players in PvP, and this in turn will mean more players buying those crappy ships for the consoles they have, more players buying Dilithium and Z-Store gear, and more players sticking with the game longer and encouraging even more players to jump in.
Only with more interest in PvP will Cryptic devote the resources to create more PvP content. The first step is getting more players, and my proposal is one simple, cheap solution to that problem. There are other proposals out there, and I don't wish to take anything away from any of them; they are good thoughts by smart, interested, and well meaning people, and they too deserve a look over to see if they can be used.
If Cryptic really has an interest in the bottom line, they should look over the gear the average PvP'er has and compare that to the most hard-core roleplayers. I'm willing to bet the PvP crowd spends more per person than any other segment of this game's population, and having more PvP'ers can only enhance Cryptic's bottom line.
To stay on the current course guarantees PvP will remain a marginal business for Cryptic. The goose that lays golden eggs is being starved, and thus it lays fewer eggs. It's not the fault of the goose. Why not try feeding it a little?
You think that PvP is the goose that lays the golden eggs? That's been proven false many times. The same thing happens in most MMOs. PvPers complain that not enough resources are being spent on PvP, and that the company would make a ton of money if only they improved PvP. If the company makes the mistake of trying to actually do it, they then find that nothing improves, and the PvPers continue to complain that the company "did it wrong."
The fundamental fact is this - "good RPG progression system" and "good PvP" are orthogonal. You can't have both and the money is in the former.
Wold of Tanks makes a mint on a game that is nothing but PvP. There is a large audience for this genre of game. What is lacking, and what makes WoT so outstanding in this field, is that there are very few MMOG's which have implemented PvP in anything like a balanced and effective manner.
STO is in the position to have both RPG and PvP. The basic system for starship combat is one of the best out there. But Cryptic does nothing to teach those who want to PvP how to do it. Players try, get frustrated, and quit.
If you personally don't want to PvP, then don't. But please don't assume that because you don't want it nobody does.
P.S. When cellular phones first came out they were a joke. A very expensive, boxy, complicated instrument reserved for people who wanted to look like they were important enough to need one. Had you taken a poll in 1979 you would have discovered that almost nobody wanted one. When they became smaller, more reliable, and cheaper to own, suddenly everyone wanted them. So long as you are stuck in the mindset of what used to be, you will never discover what could be.
Eldar Scrolls makes a mint in single player RPG equal to World of Tanks for each title. 100% single player story driven no PvP. PvP is better sold in FPS, RTS, and sim markets than any RPG including MMORPG. In any MMORPG PvP is an atraction for a subset of players and not the main game.
i do completely agree PvP in any MMO lacks complete balance and that ofcourse turns anyone who is interested in it that is a normaly PvE player away. Balance in MMO games turn me away and I quite enjoy balanced PvP just as much as I enjoy a SP RPG.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Yes, PvE players would much rather have the 'imbalance' in their favor, instead. Pitting players against an unintelligent and simplistic NPC AI is not 'balanced', especially not in this game.
I don't think the 'unbalanced' nature of PvP is really what drives people away. I tend to believe it's a combination of difficulty (as other players aren't mindless drones to be pew-pew'd to death), lack of rewards, and lack of options that does it. I am not a person who PvPs a lot, and most of my gaming experience is in singleplayer games. . .yet I PvP a lot in this game. Best way I can describe it is that it's fun, and that mindlessly repeating the same PvE missions to grind for a particular goal is not fun.
When other MMOs implement PvP, it's either poorly implemented due to the limitations of the mechanics, or it's not given the scope it really needs to be a true part of the game, and is thus treated as something separate.
And PvE players enjoy challenge just as much as PvP, PvE players want enemies with teeth that can fight back. But then again How would I know since i play PvP and PvE just not in this game.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Don't pretend that PvE players are alone in wanting imbalance in their favor. PvP players are even worse, just look at any game with open-world PvP and you'll see total gank-fests.
As for RPG vs. PvP, why do we have to choose only one? Both can easily be implemented in STO using the existing mechanics. Wouldn't a game that draws upon two customer pools do better than one which caters only to one at the expense of the other?
You can have both. As long as you are willing to accept unbalanced PvP, which will also marginalize the number of players for it. Or alternatively, accept the idea of an RPG without meaningful character advancement, which I think the majority of PvE players will *not* be on board with.
I enjoy PvP and even I hate when my side is up 12-0 and starts spawn camping/gloating. It really is lame. However, there is no age requirement on the game so any online game will have keyboard jockeys and/or 12 year olds playing. You just need thicker skin.
Its especially amusing being told I need to learn to play from a JHAS ship or time ship. You just roll your eyes at those clowns. And BTW guys taking premades into PUGs your just as lame even if you are polite. Most of the time your in recluses, bugs, and timeships and on TS or Vent. You know good and well your not about to get any competitiong unless you run into another premade. Some of these guys are the same players trying to "save PvP". No, your part of the problem. Your not saving squat.
Because RPG elements of MMOs ruin the equal playing field of PvP. Back in the day I played Dark Ages of Camleot (stupid profanity filter doesn't like acronyms) where a toon had zero chance against an opponent more than 3 levels above him. The whole system was built on inherent bonuses based on the level disparity between a player vs. mob/player. Introdue lewt gear and its the haves vs. the have-nots. All things being equal 2 players could have a good dual if everything was equal. However, most to the time it was not and teams won via the assist train.
In contrast, I played SFC 2 around the same time where ships were set in stone with their weapons/power/etc. Now it was more about player skill because there was no way to upset the balance outside of using a higher level ship than your opponent. I could jump in at any time and set a up a match with other players and assuming skill disparity wasn't that great the match would be even with either player able to win.
STO a bug ship shows up and your in a b'rel/qin/patrol escort --> bug wins 9/10 times if the player is even remotely close in skill level. Add to that the fact that most bugs have elite fleet gear + purple mk xii tac consoles and its all over before it ever began. Lobi ships and the Elite Fleet Gear are a big part of the problem. It took me a long time before I could even compete with a bug, let alone kill one. And that took a fair amount (read ridiculous amount of hours) of grinding. Honestly, why do I have to do endless grinding just to compete in a game. Thats ******* stupid if you think about it, it's a game. The playing field should be even because the point is to have fun; not grind first or pay hundreds of dollars and then to have fun later. :rolleyes: Take those two sources out of the equation and PvP would be more competitive and more interesting as a result. Still have to learn how to PvP but its more encouraging to try again if you stood a chance before the game even started.
Ok done with my rant. I feel better now
Uhm...
I don't really agree. Not about wanting PvE enemies to actually be difficult (that isn't just huge piles of health and one-shot damage), I DO want that actually. Would make PvE interesting and do the game a breath of fresh air. There are plenty as well who would love to have more honestly difficult and challenging PvE content, including some PvPers I feel are also a part of that group. It'd still be an AI program, true, but there's been tons of tough-as-nails games in the past and present, and probably the future as well.
But what I mean is that there are a LOT of people as well who don't want more difficult PvE content. Be it either because they simply do not really know how the game works all that well, or they don't want it because they like being the 'hero' and saving the day.
Hence the terms of 'PvE heroes' and 'Kirking' have come into existence.
Someone Quote SFC 2 : this game, based on Starfleet Battles, has point value to balance fleet. This is how the pvp in SFC work. You can have 2 players in Dreadnought against 4 in frigate.
People think that RPG progression is orthogonal to pvp balance. As it is implemented this is true because both are poorly implemented and are misunderstood.
Level in RPG was there to represent the combat hability of the character. The player skill had nothing to do in battle (in D&D a player with a fighter only chose his target, the rest is pure luck, level and gear. No skill because level IS skill). So PvP in a RPG setting is basically solved by the side with more level win and this is what the designer of the time expect. RPG was about Roleplay. Player roleplay and the level is there asset if a combat occur. Player skill does not matter a lot for combat. They manage the combat, they don't do it. There was no max level TRIBBLE (the max was either not reachable or an extension expend it, or it was really end game, create a new character).
BUT in today MMOG we speak of player skill ?!? if the character ability to fight is the player skill then level are useless. All the RPG advancement loss its meaning. More we all reach max level in less than a month of casual playing which mean that all design around the advancement is meaningless as we will really play the game at max level. So why bother with all the level? The low level item (mark I to IX) are just useless. I don't understand why they exist at all. Why an ensign player cannot use a mark XI phaser pistol when an ensign brdige officer can if the player is higher level?
Pvp need not to be balance. We all like to fight the big monster, so do we like to fight strong foe in PvP but it need to be interesting and not a sure lose each time. For that low level/unskill player must be able to gang on stronger player. This is how MMORPG successfull pvp work. The kind that involve every body.
For sport pvp you need real balance, this is hard. And you need to rank player like in Street fighter so unskilled battl'eh player don't fight the top warrior. You don't put a young boxer of 60 kg again Mike Tyson (at least not before he get used to the ring).
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
That's called 'tactics' and 'coordinating attacks'. That's supposed to happen, as PvP is a team sport. Given the imbalance of defense compared to offensive firepower in this game, it's sometimes necessary. It's recommended that you not fly alone in open-world PvP for just that reason. Heaven forbid should people have to take the smart approach to things.
Agreed. The instant a mission, especially a storyline mission, becomes inherently difficult (such as Defense of New Romulus), people start howling and moaning left and right about how 'unbeatable' it is, when all that's required is some basic tactics and timing. They can't dive in head-first and pew-pew everything to death, so they complain. The mission then gets nerfed.
With the way the game is, simply using Cannon: Scatter Volley and Torpedo Spread will wipe away most mobs and complete nearly all missions. Some require a second cycling of the buffs, but that's it.
If the AI were tougher and required players to think (using defensive abilities, positioning, debuffs, etc), the general PvE population's skill would improve - then they wouldn't freak out, cry, and never return to PvP when they Kirk on in and get wiped in 2 seconds when they take on an entire enemy team without using balancing shields.
My post is one way to address the core issue, player training, which will make almost every other aspect of the argument irrelevant. For example, those who complain about the PvP'er in the bug ship with Mk XII purple gear will not face those ships until they themselves have had an opportunity to acquire the gear and to learn to support their gear choices with the other aspects of the game such as build, skills, and powers usage.
Those who argue there is a fundamental opposition between RPG and PvP have missed the boat entirely on this topic: the framework of STO PvP is already there, and it works. All that is needed is player training in an environment that does not result in repeated instant slaughter. Perhaps, if players were introduced to PvP at level 10, they would have the skills to enter Kerrat without being pwned by those nasty evil Klinks when they reach that stage of the game.
Players who PvP, as can be seen by the numbers of bugships and consoles and other Z store items, support Cryptic. While I cannot prove it, I believe on average they spend more per person than roleplayers. Increasing the number of PvP'ers cannot harm Cryptic's bottom line, because PvP'ers are also PvE'ers. Players who PvP at the high levels cannot become complacent with their build or gear because the next item that goes up for sale will be used, and they will need to keep up.
There are no serious mechanical issues standing in the way of implementing the proposal I have offered. The ability to downgrade equipment and nerf player skills due to the rank of their teammates is already there in the level matching feature, so when a high level drops down to participate in a tier I match his gear, no matter how expensive or what color, will be no better than the low level guys. This will create 'fair fights' which so many complain they cannot get in PvP without hampering the top end PvP'ers who have all the elite gear and ships.
This game is not D&D, or WoW, or any other game past or present. It does not operate by the same ruleset or on the same engine. The engine STO has works fine for PvP, even with the 'broken' gear and powers. PvP'ers learn and adapt and go into the queues time and time again with all these issues now. No major overhaul is needed: this is not a daunting task.
Finally, to those who do not like PvP: I'm sorry you feel that way. I'd like to show you that PvP can be fun, but if you don't want it then have fun playing the game your way. But none of what I proposed interferes with your game whatsoever. You will not miss out on a single tea party or new mission. This will not interfere with your daily grind, nor will it impact the new Featured Episodes or expansions. In short, if you don't want to PvP you can safely ignore that whole segment of the game. Why would any dedicated PvE'er care enough to stand up in opposition to making PvP more accessible?
It's not an either/or situation. We can have pie and cake using what we have now, with a very minor bit of developer involvement. Certainly less involvement than was necessary to create Nukara.
PvP needs to be balanced, either thats having to pick a ship and weapon layout and not able to change it or puting a cap on damage and defense. Either way that would remove OP ships and gear from the queued PvP. This is where the competitive PvP and the casual PvP belongs. Competitive sports have limits on what can be used so it is fair for all competing and this would be better for casuals as they wont have to go against better gear.
PvP needs to have a seperate free for all where you can use your own build with as much defense and damage you can get but that should not be the queued events. An open Pvp zone and private matches is where this belongs. This is where the bugship with fleet and rep gear is tested against other top end ships.
Do those 3 things and PvP will get more players. 1 training from day 1. 2 a level PvP for everyone, and 3 an open PvP where anything goes. Thats PvP for both casual and hardcore PvP players and across all levels where you learn to do it before you reach endgame. Evryone wins.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
...just as it should be possible for those (like me) who wants to avoid pve should be able to avoid it. just a guess
I don't think there's many PvP players that would really advocate 'forcing' people to PvP. That's the last thing most serious PvPers want, since that will just lead to AFKers and a lot of TRIBBLE-poor PvPers clogging the system. I'd say most PvPers really just want there to be an actual system of incentives to make PvP a viable method of gathering important resources (dilithium, reputation marks, EC, etc), along with more play options (i.e., more maps and game modes). I can spend 4 hours in Ker'rat blowing people up and earn nothing but boff skillpoints. I'll have fun, but I won't be advancing any of the reputation systems and I won't earn nearly as much dilithium or EC as I would have if I had spent the time grinding eSSTFs and other routine, boring PvE missions.
We had that, it was called the KDF....didn't work out so well