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PvP: Why So Few Play
brian334
Member Posts: 2,219 Arc User
Many games are pretty much all PvP and they prosper. STO has one of the most dynamic combat systems out there, and yet PvP fails here. Why?
Well, learning curve is the main issue.
Yes, all the other answers are pure bull-TRIBBLE. When a player hits level 50 and tries PvP for the first time he gets ganked. And he doesn't know how, or why, or what to do to prevent it.
Some guys try try again, but there is a vertical wall to the learning curve, and only the very most persistent players get up to the top. Pig-headed, stubborn, don't like to lose types who will repeatedly bash their heads into the wall until they get help to get over it. And yes, everyone currently in PvP either grew up with STO from the beginning, or had other players teach them.
So, we have a game that has fascinating, compelling, gritty, in-your-face PvP, and yet we have out of millions of players dozens who regularly PvP. And those guys spend craploads of money on the game. How do we get new players, or old players who long ago gave up on PvP, to give it a chance?
Well, to be honest, in it's current incarnation, we don't. And with all the new Mk XII Fleet gear, (which may as well be Mk XIII or Mk XIV,) the wall players need to overcome gets taller and taller with each update. We need a new incarnation of PvP.
My suggestion: Put some slope to the learning curve. Here's how I'd do it.
1) Start PvP early, when powers and gear cannot be an issue.
2) Build it into the quests, so that players must participate in PvP to level up.
3) Break it into peer groups based on ship tier.
4) Recruit successful PvP'ers to be trainers. (PvP Boot Camp is a great start.)
In my proposal, before a character reaches level 10 and acquires a new starship he must participate in at least one ground PvP and one space PvP. When he acquires the mission to gain a new starship, he must enter the queues and accomplish a specific goal, such as employ a power from his power tray. The lessons would get more complex as the character levels up, and at each tier he would have to participate in more PvP, so one of each type of PvP at level 10, two of each type at level 20, etc. (A player could, of course, do more than just the levelup mission, and this should be rewarded too.)
In order to prevent the insta-ganks so common to PvP today, the queues would have to be broken up so that a Tier I ship only fights other Tier I ships. This way the player is constantly paired off with his peers rather than newbs being tossed into the ring with the lions, which is the current system. The idea is similar to Jr. High, Sr. High, College, and Professional tiers in real life. You don't teach a Jr. High football player by sending him to the stadium with the pros and watching him lose over and over, you teach him by pitting him against his peers where his mistakes and theirs pretty much cancel out.
Of course, under this system an experienced player could drop back down to his starter ship and roll around the queues, but only using gear that the noobs will have available. A Mk XII purple weapon would simply be downgraded by the computer to the power level of a Mk I. Indeed, this would make Tier I ships useful past level 20, while currently these ships are stripped of their gear and used as extra bank slots by most players.
However, most high level players want to fight the high level fights. Those who wish to fight at lower levels can, of course, but this also presents an opportunity to train the new guys. Players can be recruited, either by the system or by moderators, to help new players learn PvP. There could be a Mark/Dil/Zen mission for a level 50 who wishes to drop down into his tier I ship to train new guys.
There could even be a syllabus, or points the player should be taught, such as how to spec skills and traits, how to keybind, how to prioritize targets and cross-heal. These would be scaled to the level of the character, so you won't need to teach a Tier I player about timing multiple powers to create synergy in an attack, but at Tier I a player should know how to activate his powers, and how to allot skill points to his BOffs and captain to make the most of these powers. The level 50 would not get his quest completion reward until his trainees passed a three-question 'Advancement Exam' dealing with the points he was supposed to teach.
This system would make those low tier ships useful for something other than extra bank slots. It would separate the elites from the newbs, granting the newbs a chance to learn from their mistakes, allowing them to grow into PvP the same way the original players did, by fighting with their peers. This would stop the instant frustration that currently drives so many players away from PvP and, who knows, may even make it fun for everyone.
The good players want battles with guys who offer them a challenge. They want to know they have been in a fight and, win or lose, that they had to give it their all. New guys want a chance to make a difference rather than be an insta-kill for the elites, and they want an opportunity to learn and improve so they can some day fight with the elites. This proposal would accomplish all of that and more.
Now, I'm sure you each have particulars you would do differently, and some of you may have better ideas of how this may be done. My proposal isn't intended to be anything other than one way to bring life and new blood into the PvP queues, so feel free to debate it, find better solutions, or point out what you feel are flaws in my arguments. I have no e-go to bruise, so fire away.
TL;DR: Break PvP into tiers so players can compete against other players of their skill and knowledge level, then incorporate PvP into the levelup process.
Well, learning curve is the main issue.
Yes, all the other answers are pure bull-TRIBBLE. When a player hits level 50 and tries PvP for the first time he gets ganked. And he doesn't know how, or why, or what to do to prevent it.
Some guys try try again, but there is a vertical wall to the learning curve, and only the very most persistent players get up to the top. Pig-headed, stubborn, don't like to lose types who will repeatedly bash their heads into the wall until they get help to get over it. And yes, everyone currently in PvP either grew up with STO from the beginning, or had other players teach them.
So, we have a game that has fascinating, compelling, gritty, in-your-face PvP, and yet we have out of millions of players dozens who regularly PvP. And those guys spend craploads of money on the game. How do we get new players, or old players who long ago gave up on PvP, to give it a chance?
Well, to be honest, in it's current incarnation, we don't. And with all the new Mk XII Fleet gear, (which may as well be Mk XIII or Mk XIV,) the wall players need to overcome gets taller and taller with each update. We need a new incarnation of PvP.
My suggestion: Put some slope to the learning curve. Here's how I'd do it.
1) Start PvP early, when powers and gear cannot be an issue.
2) Build it into the quests, so that players must participate in PvP to level up.
3) Break it into peer groups based on ship tier.
4) Recruit successful PvP'ers to be trainers. (PvP Boot Camp is a great start.)
In my proposal, before a character reaches level 10 and acquires a new starship he must participate in at least one ground PvP and one space PvP. When he acquires the mission to gain a new starship, he must enter the queues and accomplish a specific goal, such as employ a power from his power tray. The lessons would get more complex as the character levels up, and at each tier he would have to participate in more PvP, so one of each type of PvP at level 10, two of each type at level 20, etc. (A player could, of course, do more than just the levelup mission, and this should be rewarded too.)
In order to prevent the insta-ganks so common to PvP today, the queues would have to be broken up so that a Tier I ship only fights other Tier I ships. This way the player is constantly paired off with his peers rather than newbs being tossed into the ring with the lions, which is the current system. The idea is similar to Jr. High, Sr. High, College, and Professional tiers in real life. You don't teach a Jr. High football player by sending him to the stadium with the pros and watching him lose over and over, you teach him by pitting him against his peers where his mistakes and theirs pretty much cancel out.
Of course, under this system an experienced player could drop back down to his starter ship and roll around the queues, but only using gear that the noobs will have available. A Mk XII purple weapon would simply be downgraded by the computer to the power level of a Mk I. Indeed, this would make Tier I ships useful past level 20, while currently these ships are stripped of their gear and used as extra bank slots by most players.
However, most high level players want to fight the high level fights. Those who wish to fight at lower levels can, of course, but this also presents an opportunity to train the new guys. Players can be recruited, either by the system or by moderators, to help new players learn PvP. There could be a Mark/Dil/Zen mission for a level 50 who wishes to drop down into his tier I ship to train new guys.
There could even be a syllabus, or points the player should be taught, such as how to spec skills and traits, how to keybind, how to prioritize targets and cross-heal. These would be scaled to the level of the character, so you won't need to teach a Tier I player about timing multiple powers to create synergy in an attack, but at Tier I a player should know how to activate his powers, and how to allot skill points to his BOffs and captain to make the most of these powers. The level 50 would not get his quest completion reward until his trainees passed a three-question 'Advancement Exam' dealing with the points he was supposed to teach.
This system would make those low tier ships useful for something other than extra bank slots. It would separate the elites from the newbs, granting the newbs a chance to learn from their mistakes, allowing them to grow into PvP the same way the original players did, by fighting with their peers. This would stop the instant frustration that currently drives so many players away from PvP and, who knows, may even make it fun for everyone.
The good players want battles with guys who offer them a challenge. They want to know they have been in a fight and, win or lose, that they had to give it their all. New guys want a chance to make a difference rather than be an insta-kill for the elites, and they want an opportunity to learn and improve so they can some day fight with the elites. This proposal would accomplish all of that and more.
Now, I'm sure you each have particulars you would do differently, and some of you may have better ideas of how this may be done. My proposal isn't intended to be anything other than one way to bring life and new blood into the PvP queues, so feel free to debate it, find better solutions, or point out what you feel are flaws in my arguments. I have no e-go to bruise, so fire away.
TL;DR: Break PvP into tiers so players can compete against other players of their skill and knowledge level, then incorporate PvP into the levelup process.
Post edited by brian334 on
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Comments
Issue 1: If one player at level 31 was helping out a player that was level 21, they could not go to the same match together as they were tier restricted.
Issue 2: They made leveling so fast in this game that low level PvP was pointless and empty.
Now I, personally, am not a PvPer. I have PvP on occasion and have had fun with it......IF I was in a team of friends. I did not enjoy PvP pugs. PvP is just something that I am not very interested in. Your suggestion would turn a guy like me off from the game because you are wanting to force PvP on me. I have friends that wanted me to try other games but I won't because they are open PvP and I do not want that.
They had a nice way to introduce players to PvP, it was just flawed. Perhaps if they introduced some optional open PvP story driven missions, that would help. I am against forcing it though.
I'll join the queue and spend the next three minutes hitting respawn, as we're being faced by a group that is premade comes in and cleans house then spawn camps.
Maybe if there were a "ranking" system of some type with pvp so those who aren't the best are getting discouraged by groups of aces.
I'm pretty sure those aces don't like it either as it has to be boring.
redisign
cause sometimes its party time!
I think this is were the proposal fail. We need to fight with group of different ship and level. For this the only way is to move from player cap to point value cap. Therefore low tier and/or level player will be very numerous so they will less be gang. I can have a team with let's say 4 Galaxy (4x4=16pts) and 9 Mirandas (1x9=9pts) fighting 4 Scimitars (4x6=24 pts) for exemple and still be balanced. The 9 Mirandas player, even if low level are unlikely to be all killed instantly.
For new player it would be nice to send them an estimate survival time once attack so they understand the idea (Yes a miranda hit by the thalaron canon will explode in one shot).
As for use, when I go pvp NO ONE speak. I guess if people speak the new player will feel less daunting.
I am all for a ranking system based on the player-starship combinaison. So new player-ship combinaison face the same.
And yes, the pvp is some what badly designed and lack any feeling of involvement. I do it for the dilithium and EC.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
No. But I wont waste bouth our time with my bull-TRIBBLE reasoning.
There is no learning curve..rofl.
Its pay 2 win. period. Disagree all you want, thats what it is.
Lockbox ships, special consoles, JHAS's...if you dont have one of those, you dont win. End of story.
PVP in STO is a side note, no one really cares about it. Why do you think the pvp queue menu is hidden in a drop down menu along with the visit starship bridge option and not where the main queue button is?
Yep, its just a minor, side note system no one really cares about too much. STO is PVE GAME , deal with it.
Cryptic DO...NOT...CARE about PvP. The system for pvp and its maps hasnt seen an overhaul for more than TWO years. Cryptic do not make money from PvP, so they have let it fester and degrade into the joke it has become today.
A joke in which one escort class ship can tank 4 cruisers pounding on it for more than 5 minutes.
A joke in which one escort can rip apart a cruiser in under 30 seconds.
Cryptic do not care, they stopped caring about PvP a long, long time ago.
That... is why no one pvp's.
i suggest
Battlestar Galactica Online
It lacks content but its an open PvP space shooter game its really not to bad if you like a good PvP shooter.
This really isn't the case for PvP. You just happened to go in once, get annihilated and say "well they must all have the best gear and it's all P2W"
Simply not true. I'll never convince you of it though, so I don't even know why I'm trying.
Kirk's Protege.
I got to this part, and this is all i have to say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc
No, nono, NOOOO to this idea!
Now as to how to make more people pvp, well I can only talk for myself. You can't. I don't pvp at all, it is not what I'm interested in. I have no opinion on how to better it, but you should not force pvp on anyone. Do not mix pve missions into pvp areas. Yes I know about Kerrat, it has no mix into the plot as far as I'm aware. There are people who simply won't pvp and I am one of them.
DeltaFox
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I played a Korean mmo where a guild could challenge another at anytime. The mechanism was simple. The guild leader sent a challenge to the other leader which could either accept or decline. There was also the option of betting gold/items on the war. The conditions to win the war were either:
1. leader got killed.
2. no member left.
3. most member alive when timer run out.
I remember everyone was so hyped for weekly major battles where members of both guilds met in a place and battled. Also, when someone died they couldn't participate until the war it was over.
It would be great if this idea could be implemented. It would make fleet more fun... besides just grinding and building starbase and stuff.
Those things help, for certain. Gear is always a factor in any game, PvP or PvE. It is not THE factor in STO PvP. The main factors to pay attention to in STO PvP are how you've built your ship in terms of bridge officer abilities and duty officer setup, and how you USE that build. You have to know how to maneuver properly, something PvE does NOT instruct you in (you just have to saunter up to the target and pew-pew it to death). You also have to learn timing. . .you can't just randomly spam your abilities at the opposing players and expect it to accomplish anything. Burst DPS has to be timed, de-cloak alphas have to be timed, and ability activation has to be timed. These are things that the PvE does a very poor job at teaching. You could be running cheap rare Mk XI gear and a lower-level Omega equipment set in a free T5 ship and still do some good, if you've built the ship to where it can PvP and you're able to fly it properly in PvP.
What do you need to ultimately make it in PvP? A good build, and lots of practice and advice from better PvPers. It worked for me, and I'm not the type of person who usually PvPs.
I get very tired of people writing off PvP seemingly without really giving it a try.
Okay, I'll buy that. However, there are a great many who don't PvP because there is a huge knowledge gap between players who do and new guys, and they don't even know it because the game does nothing to teach that.
You don't need Mk XII gear for anything the engine can throw at you. I started doing elite STF's with Mk X gear because once you know PvP, PvE is simply boring and time consuming. If Cryptic wants to sell stuff, they should look carefully over the inventories of the PvP'ers, who probably spend more per person on this game than even the most devout PvE Roleplayer.
The End Game for STO is PvP or Foundry. Once you've done all the three factions' missions it's all just grind, grind, grind. Why not give PvP a chance? Why not give the PvP community a chance? It's a lot more fun that shooting those Borg Transformers for the 1000th time.
also as things are pvp is pointless and always will be until there is a territory control metagame
This is exactly the experience the topic of my post was intended to address. The Aces should not be in the same queues with the newbs. However that is acccomplished would be a good thijng, so long as the end result is more players PvP'ing and moving up the ranks to to join the elites rather than simply being their cannon fodder.
Some people love a challenge, and don't mind losing for a bit, because they are determined to win. These people will seek out PvP.
Most people will try PvP casually, and don't mind losing, because it's just something we do for a lark. We may dabble in it for an hour a month or two for a change of pace, then go back to our regular grind.
As far as PvP as a mandatory part of the game? I won't play that game. I wouldn't play on a WoW PvP server, and I sure as hell will never try Eve Online.
Member since December 2009
This. THIS. I'm tired of people claiming 'PvP doesn't make money for the game'. I call BS on that. In PvP, there's an actual REASON to get all those goodies. . .you can try gaining an advantage over your opponents. People in this very thread have complained how PvP is full of 'pay to win' stuff (a classification I disagree with).
In PvE. . .I really have trouble thinking how most of the new ships are really necessary and worth the expense. In the hands of an incompetent, it's not going to change anything. In the hands of a skilled player, it means the enemy blows up a few seconds faster. The biggest motivation might be 'it's the ship I've always imagined myself flying!' or 'I really do like having the maximum potential firepower being wielded against the hapless PvE'.
I could run the end-game PvE in this game with a free Qin. For an extra challenge I could try my hand at using a T4 ship. Or I replay storyline missions at higher difficulties.
I'd be willing to bet that the income generated per PvPer would definitely be higher than the income generated from the average PvEer.
What value is a victory when it's achieved over really stupid, easy-to-kill NPCs? I mean, if the NPCs were truly difficult (and not something to be defeated via unloading more pew-pew onto them), I could see that. . .but it gets boring quick, and Cryptic doesn't create new content quickly enough to keep that sort of thing going. The only way PvE's even interesting in this game is when I up the difficulty on a storyline mission to Advanced or Elite, or I run with a sub-standard ship. That is not the way things should be.
I'd like to hear your reasoning. I've heard quite a lot of it from other players before making this post, and I experienced the learning curve first hand.
I don't mean to insult individuals, and apologize if my comment was taken that way. I intended to be provocative and to make a clear point that no other issue is of the magnitude of the learning curve one, and when that is dealt with all the other issues, like gear and P2W, become far less important than initially imagined.
but territory control would be so sweet you could have pve phases mixed in so both sets of players would have something to do . even doffers could unlock stuff as bonuses with a critical success on missions to support the phases
we can dream eh
Any reputable pre-made PvP team will not spawn camp. Also a problem is that premades run a dedicated voice chat server such as teamspeak and have instant communication with each other for coordination. This is not achieved in a pug and even then, you have the "Kirks" that run off to try and solo what should be a team effort.
No new maps.
No unique rewards.
No Incentive.
1) How long can you play the same maps for over and over again? If there was a new map or two added every 6 months then I bet it would keep people interested.
2) There is nothing unique that you can get from pvp that you cant get elsewhere. There is nothing driving people towards playing it. No PVP sets, no rep system, no unique powers.
3) There is no goal or incentive to play. Every match is meaningless. There are no leader boards, No territory control war, no bonuses for winning. PVP by its very nature is competitive and there is no competitive reason to do it other than for fun, and that leads back to point 1. How much fun can you have doing the same thing for nearly 4 years.
I dont buy the pay to win being a barrier argument. PVP is a real reason why people would want to buy ships and to have advantages. The PVP crowd are the type who want to max everything out and have the best ship possible. The people who dont buy ships can still play for fun as its team based, so even if they are not very good or dont have a great ship, it does not spell instant doom.
I've been in and out of this game since pre-launch... the ability to leave and come back was one of the primary reasons why I bought my LTS during the Beta. I did PvP back during the open beta, but have been a primary PvE player ever since launch.
It's not that I don't like PvP, my top games include the Unreal Tournament Series, Guild Wars, Starcraft, and the Mortal Kombat series (which i was a state finalist for MKII back in my youth).- I even was a beta tester for 10/Six, which like Eve, is a purely PvP environment. However here I so much other stuff to do that PvP just never made the "to do" list.
due to the new rep system however I found myself in need of Dil, and since I refuse to spend money on something that I can grind for free ( so sorry exchange people), I took my main into PvP for the 1,400 dil missions.
I went in expecting to get my rear end handed to me by far better equipped and more experience players, but since the mission didn't say I had to win anything I didn't care about killing or dying.
Tl/DR
My first three match's went as followed 12k/8D : 16K/10D : 8K:6D - not great by any means, but more kills then deaths is always good in my mind.
My main character is a Lib Borg Human, and has been around since launch. aside from her race, the only other Pay-To-Win equipment I had was the Red Matter Capacitor, and Automated Defense Turret ( and as any PvPer will tell you, that's a waste of a tactical console slot. :rolleyes: )
Despite getting a token for a free c-store ship when she hit 50, and a free 1,000 day vet ship waiting in the C-store - For character story preference she flies a Mirror Star Cruiser that I got from the exchange with E.C. that I farmed by doing the Tour The Universe Event. - the ship is geared with full borg set, and MK XII borg beams that was grinded for under the old system.
I went into PvP with a pretty solid STF build, which I expected not to be so hot from what I've read here. However, I was fully able to hold my own with some pretty stout players. I was able to out shield those pesky escort assaults and drag them into long drawn out battles of attrition which I generally won, I was able to out DPS shields of enemy sci ships shields, and I was able to tank blow for blow with the cruisers. - I even was fully winning in a fight that went 8 min against two klink allied D.D.'s until a BoP snuck into the fight and waxed my rear end while all my shield buffs were on cool down.
Yes there were plenty of times where someone flew in and blew my up in 2 seconds - but then I was able to return the favor more times then not. I am fully convinced that people can PvP with free gear as long as they're willing to grind to gear for it correctly, and have solid tactics in battle. Preparation is better the Persperation.
Me playing UT2k4 (red guy) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz0DnP7wXnU
PVP is not that good that you do it just for the "fun"
This post pretty much sums it up.
There are no unique rewards (based on performance), only minimal payout compared to PvE-content and no real challenge involved due to the lack of a ladder or match-making system.
When I regularely PvPed it just got boring too fast. In a premade, you usually just steamroll 99% of your opponents, with only 1% of the matches being exciting when you're meeting another premade group.
Also you're pretty much spot-on the P2W arguement. There are people who'll still take apart everyone they meet while flying a RA Patrol escort...
Not a bad idea with the 'capture and hold' idea but PvPers ignore it entirely in favor of shooting up some enemies. You absoloutley HAVE TO find a way to keep these guys split up from each other. No more than 2 ships per area.
THE ONLY WAY TO SAVE STO PVP CRYPTIC. WHICH IS ABSOLOUTLEY VITAL TO ATTRACTING NEW PLAYERS!!!!
*waves hands frantically in the air
edit: old AND new players
cause sometimes its party time!
I guess, the reasons are activation times for skills overlapping each other and not being shown in the GUI. Its a mayor flaw and makes PvP, where timing is everything, unplayable and no fun for me.
Additional I do not like arena fights. I started with Battlestar Galactica Online, open PvP almost everywhere, millions of possibilites. How often I dreamed we could hunt with a pack of bops, raiding innocent fed ships in the open space. But thats not how the game is working... so if I want PvP, I am playing Battlestar...
edit: also the lack in teaching anything game-mechanic-related in pve/levelling-content is remarkable and a major reason for low pvp-numbers.