Its pay 2 win. period. Disagree all you want, thats what it is.
Lockbox ships, special consoles, JHAS's...if you dont have one of those, you dont win. End of story.
PVP in STO is a side note, no one really cares about it. Why do you think the pvp queue menu is hidden in a drop down menu along with the visit starship bridge option and not where the main queue button is?
Yep, its just a minor, side note system no one really cares about too much. STO is PVE GAME , deal with it.
P2W definitely does give you an advantage, but you're not screwed because you don't have a Lockbox/C-Store ship.
People were complaining that the only reason I was able to win/my build was effective was because I was in a Wells. I used the same build in a Nebula (arguably the worst Sci ship available) and pulled off the same success.
Why? One simple reason. It is a pain in the TRIBBLE to switch set ups between PvP and PvE.
Learning curves, getting ganked, not having "gear" has nothing to do with any of it.
1. Ship selector is done as Starbase. Not on the fly. So there is no incentive to join PvP on the fly from Sector Space.
2. When you switch ships, you have to set up your Boff's again.
You want someone like me to join PvP, then Cryptic needs to overhaul how PvP is set up.
Here is what I want before I will even consider going into PvP again in ST:O
1. Ship Selection on the Fly from anywhere via the UI
2. Boff Station Retention "PER SHIP". If I set up boff stations on a ship, if I switch ships, I want that information retained.
3. Hotbar set up retained "PER SHIP". If I set up my hotbar for my Escort, I don't want to spend 10 minutes trying to set it up again on my Cruiser when I switch ships.
4. PvP Tier Reputation Progression with appropriate rewards.
5. PvP Level Based Matching. As a newbie to PvP, I don't want to be matched against a team/player who has been PvP'ing for 3 years.
6. More Maps/Challenges with level appropriate rewards at the end of the match. XP/EXP/Tier Rep Points, etc.
don't beat around the bush yo. this STO pvp is fkn **** crazy it'll never get fixed because the foundation of the game does not support it.... at all.
redisign
Actually, the foundation for PvP in this game is extremely solid. There is an issue here or there that pops up from time to time when they introduce new rep/powers/equipment/ships into the game, but overall those are minor flaws. The core mechanics actually of this game produce a very solid PvP experience. The learning curve is steep since there is so much gear and powers overall and since PvE never actually teaches you how to utilize these power.
The problem is that people that are PvE heroes think they can just hop into PvP and expect to do just as well in PvP as they do in PvE. Then they get smacked in the face and would rather go back to PvE where they don't have to use their brain. The harsh reality is PvE in this game is a complete joke and in no way whatsoever prepares you for PvP.
You can be amazing at PvE and still:
-have a completely inefficient build with multiple redundancies
-have no idea which abilities counter each other
-have no understanding of the concept of teamwork or even that certain powers can be sent to allies
-have no understanding of timings such as when it is best to use certain abilities
-think that you should not have to learn anything beyond your current level of knowledge, even though that level is at the very bottom of the totem pole
Actually, the foundation for PvP in this game is extremely solid. There is an issue here or there that pops up from time to time when they introduce new rep/powers/equipment/ships into the game, but overall those are minor flaws. The core mechanics actually of this game produce a very solid PvP experience. The learning curve is steep since there is so much gear and powers overall and since PvE never actually teaches you how to utilize these power.
The problem is that people that are PvE heroes think they can just hop into PvP and expect to do just as well in PvP as they do in PvE. Then they get smacked in the face and would rather go back to PvE where they don't have to use their brain. The harsh reality is PvE in this game is a complete joke and in no way whatsoever prepares you for PvP.
You can be amazing at PvE and still:
-have a completely inefficient build with multiple redundancies
-have no idea which abilities counter each other
-have no understanding of the concept of teamwork or even that certain powers can be sent to allies
-have no understanding of timings such as when it is best to use certain abilities
-think that you should not have to learn anything beyond your current level of knowledge, even though that level is at the very bottom of the totem pole
This is such a severe and misguided myth and is reflective of why a lot of people don't care to join your pvp games.
Get of your high horse, playing pvp doesn't make you better at anything by default and preferring pve doesn't mean you aren't good at pvp by default.
Read the thread and you'll see that the pvp community is the largest barrier to playing pvp
Why? One simple reason. It is a pain in the TRIBBLE to switch set ups between PvP and PvE.
No it's not. If you have a PvP build set up it will do perfectly fine in PvE and for the most part be better than 99% of the other PvE builds. I go into PvE all the time with my PvP ships/builds and completely wreck face. This is just an excuse for not wanting to put the effort in to actually learn PvP, because unlike PvE it actually does take effort. In the end, anything that takes effort is going to be more satisfying than some mindless button clicking that is PvE.
Just reading the first and last page of this thread, it's obvious that there are lots of reasons why people don't PvP, whether it be here or elsewhere.
Quite frankly, I don't because I simply have no desire to. Ever.
I'm a gracious winner. When I come out on top, I like to build up the other guy a bit, maybe share some ideas. And I'm sure there are others who act similarly. Unfortunately the whole "Haha n00b" mentality is far too prevalent. Not just here, or even just in online games, but everywhere. I just have zero desire to be faced with it here.
"You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
--Red Annorax
This is such a severe and misguided myth and is reflective of why a lot of people don't care to join your pvp games.
Get of your high horse, playing pvp doesn't make you better at anything
It's not myth. It is the plain and simple truth based on observation (I do have PvE friends and have helped many get into PvP) and my own experience. At one point I was PvE only and could complete all the elite STF's with optionals no problem. I thought I had it all figured out. It was only once I got into PvP that I realized I had barely scratched the surface of what is possible in this game and that how I was currently set up/playing the game was completely inefficient.
If my horse looks so high to you, maybe it's because you're standing so low.
It's not myth. It is the plain and simple truth based on observation (I do have PvE friends and have helped many get into PvP) and my own experience. At one point I was PvE only and could complete all the elite STF's with optionals no problem. I thought I had it all figured out. It was only once I got into PvP that I realized I had barely scratched the surface of what is possible in this game and that how I was currently set up/playing the game was completely inefficient.
If my horse looks so high to you, maybe it's because you're standing so low.
Thank you for proving my point.
I do PvP, in fact it's what I prefer. I do know the differences but they are prevalent in almost every other MMO therefore cannot be the reason why people stay away from it in this game.
Player class and ship class balance is a real problem;
The PvP community is a real problem. OrganizedPvp channel is a joke.
"People don't PvP because they PvE and therefore cannot fathom how to PvP" is a ridiculous response and wont help you get more players into your PvP queues. Especially since PvP in this game is some of the easiest I have ever played out of a host of MMORPG and FPS games.
No it's not. If you have a PvP build set up it will do perfectly fine in PvE and for the most part be better than 99% of the other PvE builds. I go into PvE all the time with my PvP ships/builds and completely wreck face. This is just an excuse for not wanting to put the effort in to actually learn PvP, because unlike PvE it actually does take effort. In the end, anything that takes effort is going to be more satisfying than some mindless button clicking that is PvE.
For me, it is. I PvP in the other games I play and I like it. It is for many games, my preferred style of play.
I prefer a set up that is separate PvE and PvP.
It isn't about not wanting to put in the time or effort to PvP. It is about wanting to take the time and effort to set up a PvP build that is separate from my PvE build that doesn't get ****ed up when I switch ships so that I can switch, on the fly, between both.
While you personally may be happy with running one ship/build for everything, I am not. This is not how I personally prefer things.
Had you paid attention to the 2 types of ships I mentioned, maybe you would not have been so quick with your standard "you are lazy" reply to a legitimately raised issue.
If it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy thinking that it is just an excuse for me not to PvP, then the only thing you have done is confirmed that there will be one less PvP'er in this game because of attitudes like yours.
For me, it is. I PvP in the other games I play and I like it. It is for many games, my preferred style of play.
I prefer a set up that is separate PvE and PvP.
It isn't about not wanting to put in the time or effort to PvP. It is about wanting to take the time and effort to set up a PvP build that is separate from my PvE build that doesn't get ****ed up when I switch ships so that I can switch, on the fly, between both.
While you personally may be happy with running one ship/build for everything, I am not. This is not how I personally prefer things.
Had you paid attention to the 2 types of ships I mentioned, maybe you would not have been so quick with your standard "you are lazy" reply to a legitimately raised issue.
If you use separate bridge officers (or re-arrange them rank-wise; i.e. I use my cruiser's Lt. Cmdr. Tac Boff for my escort's Ens. Tac Boff slot) for different ships, you can switch on the fly. For instance, set up Tray 1 and 2 for your PvE ship/bridge officers, then setup trays 5 and 6 for your PvP ship/bridge officers. Then when you switch ships, just change out the bridge officers and switch trays. After you initially get it set up, it only takes a minute to switch ships.
If it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy thinking that it is just an excuse for me not to PvP, then the only thing you have done is confirmed that there will be one less PvP'er in this game because of attitudes like yours.
So now it's my fault that you don't pvp? I suppose it was my fault that you didn't know how to switch ships/builds quickly as well?
Many games are pretty much all PvP and they prosper. STO has one of the most dynamic combat systems out there, and yet PvP fails here. Why?
Well, learning curve is the main issue.
Yes, all the other answers are pure bull-TRIBBLE. When a player hits level 50 and tries PvP for the first time he gets ganked. And he doesn't know how, or why, or what to do to prevent it.
Some guys try try again, but there is a vertical wall to the learning curve, and only the very most persistent players get up to the top. Pig-headed, stubborn, don't like to lose types who will repeatedly bash their heads into the wall until they get help to get over it. And yes, everyone currently in PvP either grew up with STO from the beginning, or had other players teach them.
So, we have a game that has fascinating, compelling, gritty, in-your-face PvP, and yet we have out of millions of players dozens who regularly PvP. And those guys spend craploads of money on the game. How do we get new players, or old players who long ago gave up on PvP, to give it a chance?
Well, to be honest, in it's current incarnation, we don't. And with all the new Mk XII Fleet gear, (which may as well be Mk XIII or Mk XIV,) the wall players need to overcome gets taller and taller with each update. We need a new incarnation of PvP.
......
The suggestions are interesting, but more narrowly, almost ALL the problems you mentioned (and more) are shown in this video about learning curves. A great example is lack of a "n00b-tube" to allow even novices a small chance to one shot a pro. Anything even remotely like that always gets nerfed. The pros hate it because it poops on their skill and builds, but it's the only way to keep new players interested long enough to further their learning.
Its pay 2 win. period. Disagree all you want, thats what it is.
Lockbox ships, special consoles, JHAS's...if you dont have one of those, you dont win. End of story.
PVP in STO is a side note, no one really cares about it. Why do you think the pvp queue menu is hidden in a drop down menu along with the visit starship bridge option and not where the main queue button is?
Yep, its just a minor, side note system no one really cares about too much. STO is PVE GAME , deal with it.
Actually, the foundation for PvP in this game is extremely solid. There is an issue here or there that pops up from time to time when they introduce new rep/powers/equipment/ships into the game, but overall those are minor flaws. The core mechanics actually of this game produce a very solid PvP experience. The learning curve is steep since there is so much gear and powers overall and since PvE never actually teaches you how to utilize these power.
The problem is that people that are PvE heroes think they can just hop into PvP and expect to do just as well in PvP as they do in PvE. Then they get smacked in the face and would rather go back to PvE where they don't have to use their brain. The harsh reality is PvE in this game is a complete joke and in no way whatsoever prepares you for PvP.
You can be amazing at PvE and still:
-have a completely inefficient build with multiple redundancies
-have no idea which abilities counter each other
-have no understanding of the concept of teamwork or even that certain powers can be sent to allies
-have no understanding of timings such as when it is best to use certain abilities
-think that you should not have to learn anything beyond your current level of knowledge, even though that level is at the very bottom of the totem pole
That video also addresses PvE heroes in a sense. When they finally realize their Elite PvE skills are worthless, it's too late.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Many games are pretty much all PvP and they prosper. STO has one of the most dynamic combat systems out there, and yet PvP fails here. Why?
Well, learning curve is the main issue.
This is a secondary issue. There's a deeper issue: We don't want to.
People are awesome.
But also, people suck. Just teaming up with them in PVEs, I realize what a immoral, exploiting, lazy bunch of *******s play this game sometimes. Now you want to MAKE me FIGHT them?
No. But I wont waste bouth our time with my bull-TRIBBLE reasoning.
I'd like to hear your reasoning. I've heard quite a lot of it from other players before making this post, and I experienced the learning curve first hand.
I don't mean to insult individuals, and apologize if my comment was taken that way. I intended to be provocative and to make a clear point that no other issue is of the magnitude of the learning curve one, and when that is dealt with all the other issues, like gear and P2W, become far less important than initially imagined.
Ok. I admit I posted before having the full effect of my morning coffee at which point I'm a bit touchy and quite grumpy. Sorry for that.
By skipping through the thread I already saw a lot of other reasons besides learning curve for people not playing PvP wich boils down to no interest in PvP in general or in STO.
I my rather unimpressive reasoning its the latter. PvP in STO (or in most MMORPGs overall) just does not adds much to my fun gameplay experience. Whenever I load up my Empire, Federation or Republic Char its for the progression inside the game story, the adventure and everything else associated with what some may dream of what they want to do with a Star Trek Spaceship while watching the show.
About learning curve improvement: What you describe in the OP sounds interesting but there might be a quicker solution. For lower levels some kind of low-level pvp, in which ppl between levels 10-19; 20-29 etc. till max could get grouped together.
Sure, there will be differences and a 10 might get steamrolled by a 19 (or not, there is not much item level difference) but its a learning phase and no matter what the mindset is: PvP means that you will at some point be blown away by somebody better than you. Somebody who cannot accept that has no place in PvP.
At maxlevel there could be a ranking system kicking in which works up and down; not just up. Anybody playing APB might be familiar with that. You start the first time and are of low/no level rank. As you get better and start killing others off you increase in rank and will be matched against others of similar rank. If you now start seeing no ground you might fall back to a previous rank and so on.
That way players are always more or less matched against evenly skilled enemys. Could that be abused? Of course, but so can everything else.
PVP being mandatory on an MMO can quickly kill off player base. The whole concept for most MMO's is it's there for your enjoyment, if you so choose to indulge in it, and nothing more than that. The biggest issue in most PVP scenarios is over thought out builds versus weak to good ones, and yes player skill does factor into all of this as to how well someone might do in a match. To fix the problem requires completely limiting the whole build concept, and instead throw people together as exact clones thus making it come down to player skill only, and most people would find that uninteresting, so it is what it is and nothing more.
The assumption that PvP is a negative experience is based on the usual initial losses.
Some endure it, other's not. But a game definitely should cater to the more durable players too.
Whatever we deny or embrace, we belong togheter./ Pat Benatar
It's not rocket science, the majority of players don't PvP because they don't like the way it's implemented.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Lol passive aggressive elitism is another reason why people won't pvp, it's not an attractive trait. Maybe the dude/tte threw the first punch, I don't know... Forgot what the post said, the one you were replying to. Anyways, I've noticed many (let's say decent.. yeah) pvp players are guilty of this. But you are no better individual than the majority of sto players just because you know science team clears sub nuke, or that double sensor scan completely shatters someone's resistance.
We're nerds, we're online, we're anonymous, doesn't mean we have to throw social etiquette out of the window.
I'm not saying I'm a better person. All I'm saying is that learning how to PvP makes you better at STO. In general, having more knowledge about something does make you better at it. And then people say, oh that's elitism or get off your high horse, etc. Whatever. Sure, blame me. It's all my fault that people don't PvP and has nothing to do with themselves or the complacency they have found in the warm womb of PvE. It's hard to even talk to you guys about it because you take things I say so personally. I say PvE teaches you very little about how the game works and suddenly I'm the bad guy with a passive aggressive attitude and the reason that people don't PvP. To me, that just sounds like more excuses.
Seeing all these nerdy carebears, an intense desire is born in me, to grief them.
Yes, and not because I am evil, but there is something in me what tells: Look at these pretending heros, who kill millions of NPC crew without a second thought, these easy victories provided to them by papa Cryptic. Aren't they like children ? Let's teach them to be grown men and women, able to make a stand.
I even think that God created the devil exactly for this purpose. (not wanting to enter religious debates, but still having the right to use concepts of my worldview)
Whatever we deny or embrace, we belong togheter./ Pat Benatar
Seeing all these nerdy carebears, an intense desire is born in me, to grief them.
Yes, and not because I am evil, but there is something in me what tells: Look at these pretending heros, who kill millions of NPC crew without a second thought, these easy victories provided to them by papa Cryptic. Aren't they like children ? Let's teach them to be grown men and women, able to make a stand.
And here you are, wanting to get easy victories off of the "nerdy carebears."
Who is morally superior? Those who grief CPUs or those who grief people?
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
This is such a severe and misguided myth and is reflective of why a lot of people don't care to join your pvp games.
Get of your high horse, playing pvp doesn't make you better at anything by default and preferring pve doesn't mean you aren't good at pvp by default.
Read the thread and you'll see that the pvp community is the largest barrier to playing pvp
Here is the basic issue in a nutshell. One player describes exactly what is wrong and this response is as if he were insulting. In fact, this highlights the poster's lack of knowledge of the problem.
gonjaa, I'm not insulting you, but you have demonstrated the knowledge gap of which I spoke most admirably. Come into PvP and learn where you have erred before you call PvP'ers elitists. You are currently in the position of a Jr. High football player telling a College player his advice is wrong.
Just reading the first and last page of this thread, it's obvious that there are lots of reasons why people don't PvP, whether it be here or elsewhere.
Quite frankly, I don't because I simply have no desire to. Ever.
I'm a gracious winner. When I come out on top, I like to build up the other guy a bit, maybe share some ideas. And I'm sure there are others who act similarly. Unfortunately the whole "Haha n00b" mentality is far too prevalent. Not just here, or even just in online games, but everywhere. I just have zero desire to be faced with it here.
Actually, when I came into PvP I was ignored at first, but I kept coming back and I kept asking questions and then someone told me about OPvP channel and someone else started giving me advice, then the Sad Pandas started the Cubs which was the predecessor to PvP Boot Camp, and suddenly I was holding my own in a Recon Science Vessel with Mk X gear. (That recon sci still sports Mk X beams, by the way.)
Doesn't sound like the actions of an elitist or insulting group, does it?
Here is the basic issue in a nutshell. One player describes exactly what is wrong and this response is as if he were insulting. In fact, this highlights the poster's lack of knowledge of the problem.
gonjaa, I'm not insulting you, but you have demonstrated the knowledge gap of which I spoke most admirably. Come into PvP and learn where you have erred before you call PvP'ers elitists. You are currently in the position of a Jr. High football player telling a College player his advice is wrong.
You say he's wrong to call PvPers elitists. And then you go on to call PvE players "Jr. High players" and PvPers "College players."
Hmm.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
You say he's wrong to call PvPers elitists. And then you go on to call PvE players "Jr. High players" and PvPers "College players."
Hmm.
That's not elitism. It's an analogy. Does everything need to be sugar-coated for you to digest? If someone (or a group of someones) is better at the game and then they tell you why they're better it automatically makes them elitists? How so? Should they lie and say people that PvP regularly have a worse understanding of the game mechanics than people that don't PvP? PvP'ers have studied it more and actually tested stuff out in a controlled environment.
How many times does your average PvE'er go into a controlled environment to test out exactly how different abilities actually work and what can best counter those abilities? I'd imagine the answer is very few, and it's simply due to the nature of PvE and the fact that very few abilities are actually used by NPC's, and even fewer are used effectively. In PvE you simply don't need the answer to most of the questions so those questions are never even asked.
You say he's wrong to call PvPers elitists. And then you go on to call PvE players "Jr. High players" and PvPers "College players."
Hmm.
This is not elitism. It is a statement off fact. If you prefer to see it as elitism, you will never understand your error. However, I will try to explain.
When I was a complete noob I ran the missions, and really didn't care much about the PvP aspect of the game until I got ganked in Kerrrat. I was livid. I'm a gamer from way back and I hate to lose. So I set about trying to learn PvP.
And I learned there was a lot I didn't know. Not because I'm stupid, and not because I didn't read the tutorials and guides, but because the information is simply not out there. For every guide that offers good advice, there are three which offer advice that will make gameplay harder.
So I went into PvP thinking I had a build that would work. I was going to be a shield-stripper sci guy, and loaded up on charged Particle burst and Tachyon Beam with a Tractor Beam to hold the guy down.
PvP guys are laughing right now. Because they know CPB and Tachy Beam are worthless.
Worse yet, the idea of healing was not something the engine had ever required of me during the runup to level 50, and I had no shield or hull heals. Even worse, I had no clue that I would be required to heal teammates, especially escorts, in order to turn the battle in my favor.
I fully understood the role of a sci ship was to be a support ship, but I had no real clue how to do that, and there was nothing in the engine to teach me. Further, I was mis-guided by guides written by PvE'ers who had no real clue how the game was played.
Then help arrived in the form of the guys of OPvP channel. Sure, there were some who said mean stuff, but I didn't cry, I called them names back and kept asking questions, and getting answers, and I learned.
Now I can do PvE missions without breaking a sweat, except those Romulan missions that were designed by Zapp Brannigan. I haven't done an STF on less than Elite since I learned to play PvP, and I am a marginally skilled PvP'er!
Yes, if there were ladders I'd be bottom rung in PvP, and yet the worst, most powerful enemy the engine has to offer is minimally challenging. In fact, PvE became a boring grind because it is so easy. As an example, I have completed all ten of the Borg Red Alerts and I did it all in a Recon Science Vessel.
I didn't do it on my own. I had help from among the best players of STO. Naz, Naldaron, and the Sad Pandas, Mavario, Husanak, and a host of others have all gone out of their way to help me get better. Even today I can go to OPvP channel and ask a question and get an answer. They are an encyclopedia of hard-won knowledge, and they will give this knowledge away if they see a player who is trying to get better.
PvP'ers are not the elitists they have been painted to be. And I am not trying to set myself above anyone, from the humblest PvE'er to the most elite of the PvP crowd. I'm fairly good at assessing my skills and I'm simply not that good. But I try, and that's what the PvP crowd likes to see. You don't have to succeed, you only have to try to impress them.
With help from the PvP crowd I've overcome many hurdles, and the biggest hurdle of all is the knowledge gap. Until you recognize that it exists you can't get better. Once you realize it exists it's like the day you figured out how to read. Whole new worlds open up and you see distant horizons where once you saw walls.
I promise you that if you put half the effort you put into grinding all the storylines and doffing and rep, you will start to see that when we speak of the lack of knowledge of the average PvE'er it's not because we intend to be insulting, but because we have hit the wall ourselves, were helped over it, and looking back can see what we didn't see on the way up.
Does everything need to be sugar-coated for you to digest?
Nope, no elitism here, nuh-uh.
/smh
Maybe learn to have a discussion without insulting people first?
But let me "sugar-coat" this for you.
Assuming, as you and the person I was responding to do, that PvPers are better at the game than PvE players is elitist. And the non-stop arrogance being displayed by PvPers here is the answer to the original question, "Why So Few Play."
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Maybe learn to have a discussion without insulting people first?
But let me "sugar-coat" this for you.
Assuming, as you and the person I was responding to do, that PvPers are better at the game than PvE players is elitist. And the non-stop arrogance being displayed by PvPers here is the answer to the original question, "Why So Few Play."
elessym, please take a month to play PvP and you will see what I'm talking about. Currently you are simply reinforcing my original point which is that there is a massive knowledge gap between the average PvP'er and the average PvE'er.
Are there PvE'ers who are as good as the elite PvP'ers? I'm sure there are, but without going into PvP I can't prove it. Conversely, the very best PvE'er can't prove he's as good as a PvP'er without going into PvP. Some don't care to prove it one way or the other, and that too is fine.
However, if I tell you that I once held similar opinions to yours and then I learned I was wrong I'm not being arrogant or elitist, I'm trying to teach you to overcome your self-imposed limit on your education.
You believe you know all there is to know about the game, and I know I have a lot more to learn. I try to teach, and you assume arrogance and elitism on my part. Which of us is the elitist?
I find it immersion breaking when mage ships use magic powers to overwhelm my ship systems through all my defenses.
"But there's counters to all powers!"
To bad we only have room for a few in our spell books. What spells should I learn for this battle hmmmm.
"But that's the fun of Magic the Gath... er I mean STO."
Even if I had been raised on the Next Gen techno drivel, most sci powers are pretty far fetched.
" I guess I'll fire my aimable Black Hole at him and hit him with a Tractor Beam for Good measure.. Oh wait! I have another type of Black Hole rift thingy, I'll use that too."
Nobody owns up to the sci ships having 4 more BO powers built in except to bleat about how unfair it would be for Cruisers and Escorts to have their own built in powers. Especially sibe they are basically Escort Tactical Powers! :eek:
No Klingon player will admit to how Awesome their ships are in maneuverability and Battle Cloak.
"It's not OP, It's Klingon uniqueness" and "Our ships are Squishy"
It would be awesome if Cryptic did a test case with a Fed ship that was a complete BoP port to listen to the QQ about how broken it was and then reveal that it's the ship they've been playing all along they found OP to fight against. (You can't spell "BoP" without "OP")
If I wanted to play a fantasy game I wouldn't be playing STO, except to PvP that is.
yep, but if you tel someone that he is not good he might feel that you don't want him to play. In every competitive setting, some people refuse to play with people that are not good. The problem here is that space battle is not meant to be a sprot but a war.
In war you fight with who and what you got. I think that if the pvp setting was more open (more people in each side, a point value system) then more player will play it because they will not fear to find the elitist/no-better/angry guy(s) that will spoil its fun or fight a full Scimitar team that your pug cannot harm.
Competitive pvp should be more like the Battleh tournament but with player. That would make fun competitive pvp (may be not every day) and it will be immersive. But if you make it like war, then it should taste like war : ie massive fleet action with miranda flighing along regent.
elessym, please take a month to play PvP and you will see what I'm talking about. Currently you are simply reinforcing my original point which is that there is a massive knowledge gap between the average PvP'er and the average PvE'er.
Are there PvE'ers who are as good as the elite PvP'ers? I'm sure there are, but without going into PvP I can't prove it. Conversely, the very best PvE'er can't prove he's as good as a PvP'er without going into PvP. Some don't care to prove it one way or the other, and that too is fine.
However, if I tell you that I once held similar opinions to yours and then I learned I was wrong I'm not being arrogant or elitist, I'm trying to teach you to overcome your self-imposed limit on your education.
You believe you know all there is to know about the game, and I know I have a lot more to learn. I try to teach, and you assume arrogance and elitism on my part. Which of us is the elitist?
Why do you assume that I think I know all there is to know about the game?
And clearly, you're the elitist when you still can't avoid making insults instead of arguments. "Trying to teach you to overcome your self-imposed limit."
Once again, LOLPVP.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
It seems to me that avoiding PvP because you don't like the other people who PvP would be a contradiction when the entire point is to blow that person up... don't like em, kill em.
Comments
P2W definitely does give you an advantage, but you're not screwed because you don't have a Lockbox/C-Store ship.
People were complaining that the only reason I was able to win/my build was effective was because I was in a Wells. I used the same build in a Nebula (arguably the worst Sci ship available) and pulled off the same success.
Why? One simple reason. It is a pain in the TRIBBLE to switch set ups between PvP and PvE.
Learning curves, getting ganked, not having "gear" has nothing to do with any of it.
1. Ship selector is done as Starbase. Not on the fly. So there is no incentive to join PvP on the fly from Sector Space.
2. When you switch ships, you have to set up your Boff's again.
You want someone like me to join PvP, then Cryptic needs to overhaul how PvP is set up.
Here is what I want before I will even consider going into PvP again in ST:O
1. Ship Selection on the Fly from anywhere via the UI
2. Boff Station Retention "PER SHIP". If I set up boff stations on a ship, if I switch ships, I want that information retained.
3. Hotbar set up retained "PER SHIP". If I set up my hotbar for my Escort, I don't want to spend 10 minutes trying to set it up again on my Cruiser when I switch ships.
4. PvP Tier Reputation Progression with appropriate rewards.
5. PvP Level Based Matching. As a newbie to PvP, I don't want to be matched against a team/player who has been PvP'ing for 3 years.
6. More Maps/Challenges with level appropriate rewards at the end of the match. XP/EXP/Tier Rep Points, etc.
Actually, the foundation for PvP in this game is extremely solid. There is an issue here or there that pops up from time to time when they introduce new rep/powers/equipment/ships into the game, but overall those are minor flaws. The core mechanics actually of this game produce a very solid PvP experience. The learning curve is steep since there is so much gear and powers overall and since PvE never actually teaches you how to utilize these power.
The problem is that people that are PvE heroes think they can just hop into PvP and expect to do just as well in PvP as they do in PvE. Then they get smacked in the face and would rather go back to PvE where they don't have to use their brain. The harsh reality is PvE in this game is a complete joke and in no way whatsoever prepares you for PvP.
You can be amazing at PvE and still:
-have a completely inefficient build with multiple redundancies
-have no idea which abilities counter each other
-have no understanding of the concept of teamwork or even that certain powers can be sent to allies
-have no understanding of timings such as when it is best to use certain abilities
-think that you should not have to learn anything beyond your current level of knowledge, even though that level is at the very bottom of the totem pole
@DevolvedOne
This is such a severe and misguided myth and is reflective of why a lot of people don't care to join your pvp games.
Get of your high horse, playing pvp doesn't make you better at anything by default and preferring pve doesn't mean you aren't good at pvp by default.
Read the thread and you'll see that the pvp community is the largest barrier to playing pvp
No it's not. If you have a PvP build set up it will do perfectly fine in PvE and for the most part be better than 99% of the other PvE builds. I go into PvE all the time with my PvP ships/builds and completely wreck face. This is just an excuse for not wanting to put the effort in to actually learn PvP, because unlike PvE it actually does take effort. In the end, anything that takes effort is going to be more satisfying than some mindless button clicking that is PvE.
@DevolvedOne
Quite frankly, I don't because I simply have no desire to. Ever.
I'm a gracious winner. When I come out on top, I like to build up the other guy a bit, maybe share some ideas. And I'm sure there are others who act similarly. Unfortunately the whole "Haha n00b" mentality is far too prevalent. Not just here, or even just in online games, but everywhere. I just have zero desire to be faced with it here.
--Red Annorax
It's not myth. It is the plain and simple truth based on observation (I do have PvE friends and have helped many get into PvP) and my own experience. At one point I was PvE only and could complete all the elite STF's with optionals no problem. I thought I had it all figured out. It was only once I got into PvP that I realized I had barely scratched the surface of what is possible in this game and that how I was currently set up/playing the game was completely inefficient.
If my horse looks so high to you, maybe it's because you're standing so low.
@DevolvedOne
Thank you for proving my point.
I do PvP, in fact it's what I prefer. I do know the differences but they are prevalent in almost every other MMO therefore cannot be the reason why people stay away from it in this game.
Player class and ship class balance is a real problem;
The PvP community is a real problem. OrganizedPvp channel is a joke.
"People don't PvP because they PvE and therefore cannot fathom how to PvP" is a ridiculous response and wont help you get more players into your PvP queues. Especially since PvP in this game is some of the easiest I have ever played out of a host of MMORPG and FPS games.
For me, it is. I PvP in the other games I play and I like it. It is for many games, my preferred style of play.
I prefer a set up that is separate PvE and PvP.
It isn't about not wanting to put in the time or effort to PvP. It is about wanting to take the time and effort to set up a PvP build that is separate from my PvE build that doesn't get ****ed up when I switch ships so that I can switch, on the fly, between both.
While you personally may be happy with running one ship/build for everything, I am not. This is not how I personally prefer things.
Had you paid attention to the 2 types of ships I mentioned, maybe you would not have been so quick with your standard "you are lazy" reply to a legitimately raised issue.
If it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy thinking that it is just an excuse for me not to PvP, then the only thing you have done is confirmed that there will be one less PvP'er in this game because of attitudes like yours.
If you use separate bridge officers (or re-arrange them rank-wise; i.e. I use my cruiser's Lt. Cmdr. Tac Boff for my escort's Ens. Tac Boff slot) for different ships, you can switch on the fly. For instance, set up Tray 1 and 2 for your PvE ship/bridge officers, then setup trays 5 and 6 for your PvP ship/bridge officers. Then when you switch ships, just change out the bridge officers and switch trays. After you initially get it set up, it only takes a minute to switch ships.
So now it's my fault that you don't pvp? I suppose it was my fault that you didn't know how to switch ships/builds quickly as well?
@DevolvedOne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
The suggestions are interesting, but more narrowly, almost ALL the problems you mentioned (and more) are shown in this video about learning curves. A great example is lack of a "n00b-tube" to allow even novices a small chance to one shot a pro. Anything even remotely like that always gets nerfed. The pros hate it because it poops on their skill and builds, but it's the only way to keep new players interested long enough to further their learning.
Then why are you commenting here???
You attitude sucks. Dealwif it.
That video also addresses PvE heroes in a sense. When they finally realize their Elite PvE skills are worthless, it's too late.
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
This is a secondary issue. There's a deeper issue: We don't want to.
People are awesome.
But also, people suck. Just teaming up with them in PVEs, I realize what a immoral, exploiting, lazy bunch of *******s play this game sometimes. Now you want to MAKE me FIGHT them?
No thank you.
Ok. I admit I posted before having the full effect of my morning coffee at which point I'm a bit touchy and quite grumpy. Sorry for that.
By skipping through the thread I already saw a lot of other reasons besides learning curve for people not playing PvP wich boils down to no interest in PvP in general or in STO.
I my rather unimpressive reasoning its the latter. PvP in STO (or in most MMORPGs overall) just does not adds much to my fun gameplay experience. Whenever I load up my Empire, Federation or Republic Char its for the progression inside the game story, the adventure and everything else associated with what some may dream of what they want to do with a Star Trek Spaceship while watching the show.
About learning curve improvement: What you describe in the OP sounds interesting but there might be a quicker solution. For lower levels some kind of low-level pvp, in which ppl between levels 10-19; 20-29 etc. till max could get grouped together.
Sure, there will be differences and a 10 might get steamrolled by a 19 (or not, there is not much item level difference) but its a learning phase and no matter what the mindset is: PvP means that you will at some point be blown away by somebody better than you. Somebody who cannot accept that has no place in PvP.
At maxlevel there could be a ranking system kicking in which works up and down; not just up. Anybody playing APB might be familiar with that. You start the first time and are of low/no level rank. As you get better and start killing others off you increase in rank and will be matched against others of similar rank. If you now start seeing no ground you might fall back to a previous rank and so on.
That way players are always more or less matched against evenly skilled enemys. Could that be abused? Of course, but so can everything else.
The assumption that PvP is a negative experience is based on the usual initial losses.
Some endure it, other's not. But a game definitely should cater to the more durable players too.
I'm not saying I'm a better person. All I'm saying is that learning how to PvP makes you better at STO. In general, having more knowledge about something does make you better at it. And then people say, oh that's elitism or get off your high horse, etc. Whatever. Sure, blame me. It's all my fault that people don't PvP and has nothing to do with themselves or the complacency they have found in the warm womb of PvE. It's hard to even talk to you guys about it because you take things I say so personally. I say PvE teaches you very little about how the game works and suddenly I'm the bad guy with a passive aggressive attitude and the reason that people don't PvP. To me, that just sounds like more excuses.
@DevolvedOne
Yes, and not because I am evil, but there is something in me what tells: Look at these pretending heros, who kill millions of NPC crew without a second thought, these easy victories provided to them by papa Cryptic. Aren't they like children ? Let's teach them to be grown men and women, able to make a stand.
I even think that God created the devil exactly for this purpose. (not wanting to enter religious debates, but still having the right to use concepts of my worldview)
And here you are, wanting to get easy victories off of the "nerdy carebears."
Who is morally superior? Those who grief CPUs or those who grief people?
Here is the basic issue in a nutshell. One player describes exactly what is wrong and this response is as if he were insulting. In fact, this highlights the poster's lack of knowledge of the problem.
gonjaa, I'm not insulting you, but you have demonstrated the knowledge gap of which I spoke most admirably. Come into PvP and learn where you have erred before you call PvP'ers elitists. You are currently in the position of a Jr. High football player telling a College player his advice is wrong.
Actually, when I came into PvP I was ignored at first, but I kept coming back and I kept asking questions and then someone told me about OPvP channel and someone else started giving me advice, then the Sad Pandas started the Cubs which was the predecessor to PvP Boot Camp, and suddenly I was holding my own in a Recon Science Vessel with Mk X gear. (That recon sci still sports Mk X beams, by the way.)
Doesn't sound like the actions of an elitist or insulting group, does it?
You say he's wrong to call PvPers elitists. And then you go on to call PvE players "Jr. High players" and PvPers "College players."
Hmm.
That's not elitism. It's an analogy. Does everything need to be sugar-coated for you to digest? If someone (or a group of someones) is better at the game and then they tell you why they're better it automatically makes them elitists? How so? Should they lie and say people that PvP regularly have a worse understanding of the game mechanics than people that don't PvP? PvP'ers have studied it more and actually tested stuff out in a controlled environment.
How many times does your average PvE'er go into a controlled environment to test out exactly how different abilities actually work and what can best counter those abilities? I'd imagine the answer is very few, and it's simply due to the nature of PvE and the fact that very few abilities are actually used by NPC's, and even fewer are used effectively. In PvE you simply don't need the answer to most of the questions so those questions are never even asked.
@DevolvedOne
This is not elitism. It is a statement off fact. If you prefer to see it as elitism, you will never understand your error. However, I will try to explain.
When I was a complete noob I ran the missions, and really didn't care much about the PvP aspect of the game until I got ganked in Kerrrat. I was livid. I'm a gamer from way back and I hate to lose. So I set about trying to learn PvP.
And I learned there was a lot I didn't know. Not because I'm stupid, and not because I didn't read the tutorials and guides, but because the information is simply not out there. For every guide that offers good advice, there are three which offer advice that will make gameplay harder.
So I went into PvP thinking I had a build that would work. I was going to be a shield-stripper sci guy, and loaded up on charged Particle burst and Tachyon Beam with a Tractor Beam to hold the guy down.
PvP guys are laughing right now. Because they know CPB and Tachy Beam are worthless.
Worse yet, the idea of healing was not something the engine had ever required of me during the runup to level 50, and I had no shield or hull heals. Even worse, I had no clue that I would be required to heal teammates, especially escorts, in order to turn the battle in my favor.
I fully understood the role of a sci ship was to be a support ship, but I had no real clue how to do that, and there was nothing in the engine to teach me. Further, I was mis-guided by guides written by PvE'ers who had no real clue how the game was played.
Then help arrived in the form of the guys of OPvP channel. Sure, there were some who said mean stuff, but I didn't cry, I called them names back and kept asking questions, and getting answers, and I learned.
Now I can do PvE missions without breaking a sweat, except those Romulan missions that were designed by Zapp Brannigan. I haven't done an STF on less than Elite since I learned to play PvP, and I am a marginally skilled PvP'er!
Yes, if there were ladders I'd be bottom rung in PvP, and yet the worst, most powerful enemy the engine has to offer is minimally challenging. In fact, PvE became a boring grind because it is so easy. As an example, I have completed all ten of the Borg Red Alerts and I did it all in a Recon Science Vessel.
I didn't do it on my own. I had help from among the best players of STO. Naz, Naldaron, and the Sad Pandas, Mavario, Husanak, and a host of others have all gone out of their way to help me get better. Even today I can go to OPvP channel and ask a question and get an answer. They are an encyclopedia of hard-won knowledge, and they will give this knowledge away if they see a player who is trying to get better.
PvP'ers are not the elitists they have been painted to be. And I am not trying to set myself above anyone, from the humblest PvE'er to the most elite of the PvP crowd. I'm fairly good at assessing my skills and I'm simply not that good. But I try, and that's what the PvP crowd likes to see. You don't have to succeed, you only have to try to impress them.
With help from the PvP crowd I've overcome many hurdles, and the biggest hurdle of all is the knowledge gap. Until you recognize that it exists you can't get better. Once you realize it exists it's like the day you figured out how to read. Whole new worlds open up and you see distant horizons where once you saw walls.
I promise you that if you put half the effort you put into grinding all the storylines and doffing and rep, you will start to see that when we speak of the lack of knowledge of the average PvE'er it's not because we intend to be insulting, but because we have hit the wall ourselves, were helped over it, and looking back can see what we didn't see on the way up.
Nope, no elitism here, nuh-uh.
/smh
Maybe learn to have a discussion without insulting people first?
But let me "sugar-coat" this for you.
Assuming, as you and the person I was responding to do, that PvPers are better at the game than PvE players is elitist. And the non-stop arrogance being displayed by PvPers here is the answer to the original question, "Why So Few Play."
elessym, please take a month to play PvP and you will see what I'm talking about. Currently you are simply reinforcing my original point which is that there is a massive knowledge gap between the average PvP'er and the average PvE'er.
Are there PvE'ers who are as good as the elite PvP'ers? I'm sure there are, but without going into PvP I can't prove it. Conversely, the very best PvE'er can't prove he's as good as a PvP'er without going into PvP. Some don't care to prove it one way or the other, and that too is fine.
However, if I tell you that I once held similar opinions to yours and then I learned I was wrong I'm not being arrogant or elitist, I'm trying to teach you to overcome your self-imposed limit on your education.
You believe you know all there is to know about the game, and I know I have a lot more to learn. I try to teach, and you assume arrogance and elitism on my part. Which of us is the elitist?
I find it immersion breaking when mage ships use magic powers to overwhelm my ship systems through all my defenses.
"But there's counters to all powers!"
To bad we only have room for a few in our spell books. What spells should I learn for this battle hmmmm.
"But that's the fun of Magic the Gath... er I mean STO."
Even if I had been raised on the Next Gen techno drivel, most sci powers are pretty far fetched.
" I guess I'll fire my aimable Black Hole at him and hit him with a Tractor Beam for Good measure.. Oh wait! I have another type of Black Hole rift thingy, I'll use that too."
Nobody owns up to the sci ships having 4 more BO powers built in except to bleat about how unfair it would be for Cruisers and Escorts to have their own built in powers. Especially sibe they are basically Escort Tactical Powers! :eek:
No Klingon player will admit to how Awesome their ships are in maneuverability and Battle Cloak.
"It's not OP, It's Klingon uniqueness" and "Our ships are Squishy"
It would be awesome if Cryptic did a test case with a Fed ship that was a complete BoP port to listen to the QQ about how broken it was and then reveal that it's the ship they've been playing all along they found OP to fight against. (You can't spell "BoP" without "OP")
If I wanted to play a fantasy game I wouldn't be playing STO, except to PvP that is.
In war you fight with who and what you got. I think that if the pvp setting was more open (more people in each side, a point value system) then more player will play it because they will not fear to find the elitist/no-better/angry guy(s) that will spoil its fun or fight a full Scimitar team that your pug cannot harm.
Competitive pvp should be more like the Battleh tournament but with player. That would make fun competitive pvp (may be not every day) and it will be immersive. But if you make it like war, then it should taste like war : ie massive fleet action with miranda flighing along regent.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
Why do you assume that I think I know all there is to know about the game?
And clearly, you're the elitist when you still can't avoid making insults instead of arguments. "Trying to teach you to overcome your self-imposed limit."
Once again, LOLPVP.