yep, but if you tel someone that he is not good he might feel that you don't want him to play. In every competitive setting, some people refuse to play with people that are not good. The problem here is that space battle is not meant to be a sprot but a war.
In war you fight with who and what you got. I think that if the pvp setting was more open (more people in each side, a point value system) then more player will play it because they will not fear to find the elitist/no-better/angry guy(s) that will spoil its fun or fight a full Scimitar team that your pug cannot harm.
Competitive pvp should be more like the Battleh tournament but with player. That would make fun competitive pvp (may be not every day) and it will be immersive. But if you make it like war, then it should taste like war : ie massive fleet action with miranda flighing along regent.
This is actually very close to the underlying problem.
Some people want PvP to be a game.
Some people want PvP to be a sport.
Some people want PvP to be a war.
In general, MMO implementations tend to lean towards "war." Most people don't really care for that, and therefore, most people don't care for PvP in MMOs.
The problem is that people seem to insist that the way to get more people to PvP is to make them (somehow) like war. I think that's misguided. I think there's a vast untapped potential base of players for an MMO company that actually manages to make PvP be more like a game or a sport.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Some Dev must have loved his Voyager to make Sci ships such Cheat Wagons.
So if you want to Cheat.. er PvP, use a Sci Ship.
You don't even have to think about it, just keybind everything and spam the space bar and you'll be "fighting" like the pros. Especially if you can get into a like minded Spawn Camping... er I mean PvP group.
First off this game doesn't have a dynamic combat system at all since nothing you do takes any skill as the mechanics do not allow anyone to use different tactics other than a head on collision not much skill in that. A great example of dynamic combat is League of Legends it has one of the best dynamic combat systems out there for one simple reason incomparables which basically means you never know what the other guy is going to do as in you can't keep using the same tactics over and over again you have to change what you do every time and the mechanics of that game allow that to happen thus you end up with some great epic pvp matches.
I have said many times that a great solution to the pvp problem would be to just get rid of the space element and concentrate on the ground for I believe its there they can really go to town in providing a highly engaging and fun experience with all the various ground modes you could have like team deathmatch,hord mode, zombies etc yes I know it would mean changing the the combat system to being something a lot more FPS well so be it evolution and change is good.
They could really learn a thing or two from games like League Of Legends and Neverwinter every time am on there I feel happy to pvp for an hour or so its because its intense fun and engaging plus you have the added tention of healthy competition with those sliding bars showing which team has the most domination now they will add more modes if they haven't already :cool:
The flip side of all this is if Cryptic and PWE are not prepared to invest developmental or financial resources then they may as well just pull it out completely and save us all the hassle of it being there.
First off this game doesn't have a dynamic combat system at all since nothing you do takes any skill as the mechanics do not allow anyone to use different tactics other than a head on collision not much skill in that. A great example of dynamic combat is League of Legends it has one of the best dynamic combat systems out there for one simple reason incomparables which basically means you never know what the other guy is going to do as in you can't keep using the same tactics over and over again you have to change what you do every time and the mechanics of that game allow that to happen thus you end up with some great epic pvp matches.
I have said many times that a great solution to the pvp problem would be to just get rid of the space element and concentrate on the ground for I believe its there they can really go to town in providing a highly engaging and fun experience with all the various ground modes you could have like team deathmatch,hord mode, zombies etc yes I know it would mean changing the the combat system to being something a lot more FPS well so be it evolution and change is good.
They could really learn a thing or two from games like League Of Legends and Neverwinter every time am on there I feel happy to pvp for an hour or so its because its intense fun and engaging plus you have the added tention of healthy competition with those sliding bars showing which team has the most domination now they will add more modes if they haven't already :cool:
The flip side of all this is if Cryptic and PWE are not prepared to invest developmental or financial resources then they may as well just pull it out completely and save us all the hassle of it being there.
LOL it does take skill to fly in space. try to fly in PVP and tell me it does not take skill
Ground is Horrible IMO and this game is NOT League
Not because I'm stupid, and not because I didn't read the tutorials and guides, but because the information is simply not out there. For every guide that offers good advice, there are three which offer advice that will make gameplay harder.
While that may be true , my observations have been that the opposite can be true as well .
Meaning that a well meaning PVP-er can give you advice and load outs that are not what you need in PVE .
Now I can do PvE missions without breaking a sweat.
(snip)
I haven't done an STF on less than Elite since I learned to play PvP, and I am a marginally skilled PvP'er!
Let's look at "bad" advice from PVP-ers to PVE-ers :
- Look at the builds that have one single healing ability (usually HE) .
How much will that help when a Neghvar and a Raptor and a Cube are all pounding on you in CSE ?
- Make your Tac ship a speed Tank .
Has zipping around like a madman helped you to be better at an STF ?
No .
That just helps to evade the constant incoming fire in PVP .
- The PVP master would say : "Engineering Team ? Lol , use AUX2SiF !" .
Believe it or not , ET actually still works both in PVE and in PVP .
- The player called 'thissler' makes awesome PVP videos , but his hit & run style and build leaves him cloaked about 20-30% of a PVP game .
How would ppl see a player who stays that long under cloak in an STF .
In short , contrary to many a PVP-er's belief , "what's good for PVP is good for PVE" is not always true (IMHO) .
Now I'll give you another side as well :
Before this season , or even before the "reputations" and the Doffs were introduced , I took a certain pride in saying that I was an STF-er .
I can't say that anymore .
It's not hard anymore . There is not journey . There is no great accomplishment .
There's only the "how fast can I do it this time ?" .
But the rift between experienced and well equipped PVP / PVE player grows with each new reputation and with each new load of Doffs , with each new Fleet & Lockbox ship .
And that's not all .
I PVP from time to time , but I do it to have fun my way . MY WAY .
Not the "look at the powers used by the other guy and calculate my move like a chess game" , nor the "Look at my awesome DPS that I just parsed" way .
I just want to Pew Pew .
And when I see a ship that cannot be brought down by 3 or more players (non Sci) , I recall that it was not like this when I started to PVP 2.5 years ago .
Ok I wasn't meaning it literally takes no skill to play the game as is in particular the space combat, am meaning the mechanics force you to engage in the exact same way all the time and never allows you to be creative. For example lets say you pvping in an arena where there happens to be a nebula near by you couldn't at this moment time decide that you were going to use your ram scoop to take up some of that nebula and use it against your enemy . Or if you were on the ground and were a sniper you couldn't decide am going to be stealthy and am going to take out as many targets with head shots as possible. Just for the record I have pvped plenty in this game I just don't find it compelling or fun and your right this game isn't League not yet anyway :rolleyes: lol
Congrats you have figured out that your fighting pre-made bots that auto heal when you damage them below 25%
Thats why their running PVP boot camps to increase the PVP server load instead of revamping the whole system or making the Kerat system in to PVP war zone with objectives.
PVP is so fubar right now you might as well just remove it from the game.
Ok I wasn't meaning it literally takes no skill to play the game as is in particular the space combat, am meaning the mechanics force you to engage in the exact same way all the time and never allows you to be creative. For example lets say you pvping in an arena where there happens to be a nebula near by you couldn't at this moment time decide that you were going to use your ram scoop to take up some of that nebula and use it against your enemy . Or if you were on the ground and were a sniper you couldn't decide am going to be stealthy and am going to take out as many targets with head shots as possible. Just for the record I have pvped plenty in this game I just don't find it compelling or fun and your right this game isn't League not yet anyway :rolleyes: lol
I see what you mean, and I agree. However, there's a limit to the realism you can put into a game. Especially an MMO. Imagine the programming nightmare they would have to do, to make the game act exactly like real life.
(For the record, if STO's combat system allows me to do ANYTHING, I'd be the first one up to use "burst of warp speed" quick attacks in my cruisers.)
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I am a PvPer and I do not care much for STO PvP. I have been doing it since launch and it is not balanced at all. That is why there are so many abilities that are useless in PvP (a bad thing) and a lot of must have OP abilities (Tac Team for instance). Maybe if they rebalanced the whole game to make every ability usefull...
A lot of people call it PvE vs PvP, but I suggest that part of the problem is that many of us do not want to macro everything to the space bar, have others heal us, or pay out the wazzuu for the latest OP Doff/console. Many Star Trek fans want to command their own ship and have teammates that do the same, not this cross healing, magical 0-100% healthbar, arena game.
PS (If gravity wells are 'magic' then what is attack pattern alpha? It just magically increases damage with no explanation, you can even do it while sitting still, so no, it is not a 'pattern'. How does it increase mine damage or tractor repulsors anyway? Magic!)
So few pvp because they have yet to experience the fun you can have in Kerrat in a BOP. Its not Star Trek without Bird of Preys ambushing people. If the FvF queues gave you a bad experience try kerrat for a change, but KDF or KDF rom in a cloaking ship.
Yes there would be quite a bit of programming required however in the long run it would be well worth it. It doesn't have to be exactly like real life for example just look at Fallout 3 its a fantastic game and the combat mechanics are not really that complicated however I am able to make different choices on how I approach a upcoming battle.
To say for an mmo is a bit limiting for other games like League of Legends they have made a very robust system which allows for plenty of creativity . On your point about warp burst maneuver that would be cool imagine if you could do a full 180 degree barrel rolls while firing a spread of torpedos or in ground for the body movements to feel fluidic like in Assassins Creed or Splinter Cell Conviction or the VATs targeting system from Fallout 3.
Be great if I could get the drop on my enemies from above on a ledge and leap down on my enemies and take them out that way.
As I said though if they are not prepared to invest any significant resources into addressing the pvp problem and the game mechanics then nothing we come up with will matter, since pvp doesn't rake in the big bucks new ships and other shinys do :P lol.
You're right, there are dozens of reasons people evade PvP. It's not the learning curve for everybody, but apparently it is for you as can be seen in the rest of your post:
I find it immersion breaking when mage ships use magic powers to overwhelm my ship systems through all my defenses.
"But there's counters to all powers!"
To bad we only have room for a few in our spell books. What spells should I learn for this battle hmmmm.
"But that's the fun of Magic the Gath... er I mean STO."
Even if I had been raised on the Next Gen techno drivel, most sci powers are pretty far fetched.
" I guess I'll fire my aimable Black Hole at him and hit him with a Tractor Beam for Good measure.. Oh wait! I have another type of Black Hole rift thingy, I'll use that too."
Maybe if you try applying some sense and common knowledge instead of loking for spell books you'd do better. It's a MMO game, it's bound to have abilities like those.
Nobody owns up to the sci ships having 4 more BO powers built in except to bleat about how unfair it would be for Cruisers and Escorts to have their own built in powers. Especially sibe they are basically Escort Tactical Powers! :eek:
Those built in abilities are to offset the fact that the science ships have only 6 weapon slots in a highly DPS centered game. I don't see why anyone should complain about that.
No Klingon player will admit to how Awesome their ships are in maneuverability and Battle Cloak.
"It's not OP, It's Klingon uniqueness" and "Our ships are Squishy"
It would be awesome if Cryptic did a test case with a Fed ship that was a complete BoP port to listen to the QQ about how broken it was and then reveal that it's the ship they've been playing all along they found OP to fight against. (You can't spell "BoP" without "OP")
Aaaaaand now you're either trolling or trying to get people to laugh at you. (although I have no idea why you'd want people to laugh at you)
And using the " You can't spell 'BoP' without 'OP' " line? Are you for real?
I've always felt that a big hindrance to pvp was sheer level of frustration that one experiences. This game has waaay to many CC, shutdown, and mobilizing abilities. It's one thing to fight a dangerous close call battle, but if you are fighting a science BoP that has every CC ability under the rainbow the game becomes a chore very quickly. Imagine watching the Wrath of Khan or Nemesis where in place of a space battle you have a ship just sitting there cycling Sensor scrambles, Viral matrix, etc, until the opposing captain quits in disgust.
I've always felt that their should be a general placate/immobilize immunity in pvp that occurs at the end of being affected by one. Also, certain abilities need to share cooldowns with themselves. Nothing quite like being hit with a viral matrix, moments after you just cleansed the first one.
Respeccing has also been another issue of mine. In other games you either have to pay an in game currency, had different specs to swap out, or sometimes was even free to respec your character. This is true for most MMOs including STO that your general effectiveness will be determined by your spec. If you want to excel in pvp you'll need to spec for it. Unfortunately STO charges five dollars a respect token and I don't care to spend ten dollars to spec for pvp and back to pve everytime I decide to do PVP lol.
Lastly, the pvp community is just awful. I mean you thought some people could get mean in STFs, pvp is the worse :P. One night I decided to experiment with a stealth Kumari. It would come out of stealth and one shot people with cannon overload. It wasn't particularly effective for pvp matches, but every 3-5 minutes or so when all my buffs came off cooldown I could sneak up on somebody and one shot them with cannon overload. The name calling, swearing, and general racism I got from people was pretty intense. This one guy started calling me these names to which I could only assume to be a Middle Eastern equivalent form of racial swearing. I didn't understand the meaning of it, but it was somewhat amusing. After that I haven't touched public PVP anymore. I still do fleet pvp night with my fleet. It's fun because we randomly set up teams so it's rarely lopsided because we don't organize, use strategies, or build our characters for it, we just go in shoot each other and have fun.
People do and do not PvP for a variety of reasons. Those reasons cannot be applied as a whole to either group - and in general, nobody can answer that question for anybody but themselves.
Speculating on why somebody else does or does not, is not very helpful - and - well, just wrong.
Folks can share why they do not PvP, why perhaps they PvP in other games but do not PvP in STO, etc, etc, etc.
Some of the reasons, could potentially be argued - there's no doubt about that. Much like some of the reasons simply cannot be argued. Tom doesn't like PvP - Jerry can't tell Tom he's wrong.
Different people enjoy different things, different people think differently about certain things that are involved, etc, etc, etc...
If Cryptic wants an answer about such a thing, they could send out a survey to folks - and - they would have an answer.
Discussing it in a thread, well - it's generally going to be of limited use...which I think 11 pages or so has shown so far.
Yes, all the other answers are pure bull-TRIBBLE. When a player hits level 50 and tries PvP for the first time he gets ganked. And he doesn't know how, or why, or what to do to prevent it.
I think you are seriously under-examining this.
Here's one reason why I hardly ever PvP - I like to Kirk. Plain and simple. I am proud of this fact. Telling someone they are "Kirk"ing is an insult here. And I like my tac in a cruiser. I am indifferent to the 'trinity' if not viewing it as hindering the game in some regards. I also like powers and equipment that some say are hideous for PvP. My play style is incompatible with a lot of PvP. And I'm not interested in these things resulting in the endless series of insults I've seen regarding the system.
And yes, I've tried PvP occasionally. I pretty well suck at it IMO.
This is not a cut-and-dried issue. There are hundreds of reasons why someone might not want to PvP, and some might just boil down to flat-out "I don't like it." The way I want to run the game is largely incompatible with successful PvP and I do not have much interest in being a clay pigeon. This may change at some point, but for the moment it is unlikely.
I tried PvP and didnt liked it. The main reason was simply the bad skill activation mechanic in game. When I see one skill is clickable, but it refuses to activate until clicking it 3 times, there is something wrong with the system. Most times I was dead because of such failures.
Not sure why you'd be using mouse clicks instead of keyboard shortcuts.
Some Dev must have loved his Voyager to make Sci ships such Cheat Wagons.
So if you want to Cheat.. er PvP, use a Sci Ship.
You don't even have to think about it, just keybind everything and spam the space bar and you'll be "fighting" like the pros. Especially if you can get into a like minded Spawn Camping... er I mean PvP group.
Or you could play Star Trek instead.
I do play a sci ship in PvP and I can tell you that this is completely untrue. Sci ships are marginalized to a very large degree, and serve as support ships when they do show up in PvP.
The sci ship, more than any other, demands teamwork on the part of the player. You cannot DPS enough to take down escorts, and you can't tank enough to keep up with the cruisers. In fact, Sci/Tacs and Sci/Cruisers outperform Sci ships on a regular basis in PvP, as the top end Sci powers are of limited use in PvP.
For example, Gravity Well III is awesome against NPC ships. A Player run ship simply flies away from it like it's not even there.
If you are spacebar-spamming sci powers in PvP you will be largely ineffective, because to be an effective Sci captain you must, not should but must, coordinate your offensive tactics with your tactical ships.
The role of the Sci ship in PvP is to help his team win, but you can't count on getting any kills. This is the kind of thing you won't learn from PvE, where even Tachyon Beam is useful.
While that may be true , my observations have been that the opposite can be true as well .
Meaning that a well meaning PVP-er can give you advice and load outs that are not what you need in PVE .
Let's look at "bad" advice from PVP-ers to PVE-ers :
- Look at the builds that have one single healing ability (usually HE) .
How much will that help when a Neghvar and a Raptor and a Cube are all pounding on you in CSE ?
- Make your Tac ship a speed Tank .
Has zipping around like a madman helped you to be better at an STF ?
No .
That just helps to evade the constant incoming fire in PVP .
- The PVP master would say : "Engineering Team ? Lol , use AUX2SiF !" .
Believe it or not , ET actually still works both in PVE and in PVP .
- The player called 'thissler' makes awesome PVP videos , but his hit & run style and build leaves him cloaked about 20-30% of a PVP game .
How would ppl see a player who stays that long under cloak in an STF .
In short , contrary to many a PVP-er's belief , "what's good for PVP is good for PVE" is not always true (IMHO) .
Now I'll give you another side as well :
Before this season , or even before the "reputations" and the Doffs were introduced , I took a certain pride in saying that I was an STF-er .
I can't say that anymore .
It's not hard anymore . There is not journey . There is no great accomplishment .
There's only the "how fast can I do it this time ?" .
But the rift between experienced and well equipped PVP / PVE player grows with each new reputation and with each new load of Doffs , with each new Fleet & Lockbox ship .
And that's not all .
I PVP from time to time , but I do it to have fun my way . MY WAY .
Not the "look at the powers used by the other guy and calculate my move like a chess game" , nor the "Look at my awesome DPS that I just parsed" way .
I just want to Pew Pew .
And when I see a ship that cannot be brought down by 3 or more players (non Sci) , I recall that it was not like this when I started to PVP 2.5 years ago .
I submit that any marginally successful PvP'er can take his PvP build as is in any STF and outperform his best PvE build from before he learned PvP.
There are several misconceptions in your post I will address. Please do not assume I am trying to insult you or anyone else, but that I am trying to clear up false assumptions.
One healing ability: in PvP we learn to cross heal, and rely upon our teammates to keep us alive in a fight. A tac ship built for DPS cannot heal half as well as a cruiser or sci ship, and prioritizing self-healing means he cannot specialize in DPS, which is the tac ship's job. This translates well into PvE, because in any STF where cross healing is employed you can keep your team on the line and fighting longer. Time spent on respawn timer or with critical injuries is a detriment to your team, and the habit of cross healing and being aware of the buffs and debuffs on your ship and your team's ships makes doing STF's all that much easier.
Make your ship a speed tank: While marginally useful, speed in and of itself is not going to help you win PvP. It may help keep you alive on occasion, but PvP is about kills, and if you speed away from the battle you leave your team one man short and more susceptible to being killed.
Engineering Team: A useful power both for self and team, where Aux2SIF is solely your own ship. No single ship can tank against a team for long, no matter what power setup, and if a team is concentrating on one guy, that guy's team needs to be healing him. I've never heard anyone in PvP recommend not having heals that can be used on other players. Take that one to OPvP and see what they say.
Cloaked: Cloaked ships can't attack... err, until recently, that is... A ship which remains cloaked is not helping his team in PvP. While useful, a cloak is not going to help you get kills unless you also incorporate timing and tactics into it's use, the idea being to maximize the damage output, not minimize the time other players can see you. If a ship is spending 20% of the battle cloaked, he is leaving his team a man short for 20% of the battle, and thus is a detriment to his team's chance of winning.
Gear: The rift between PvE'ers and PvP'ers isn't gear. Especially now with Rep, but it has always been the case that PvP'ers got their gear from STF's and C/Z store, which is also wheree the PvE'ers get their gear. If both sides have the exact same opportunity to get gear from the same source then assigning any portion of blame to gear is completely missing the point.
If you want to pew pew against skilless, repetitive, and non-adaptable AI controlled ships, by all means have fun. I'm not trying to take your game away from you. What I am trying to do is generate some interest in creating opportunities for guys like you who have tried PvP and left it, and for guys who have never tried PvP, to become interested in it.
PvP is fun once you get over the learning curve. Even if you don't want to try it personally, why object to offering an opportunity to those who may want to but get only frustration from the current system?
The main problem with PvP, or at least the problems I experienced when I started a few months ago (and promptly quit) is this:
Simply put, its far too much complexity far too quickly for any player to handle without help, and even if they get past that, the 'ladder' to actual PvP is insanely high.
You go from shooting things with beams and occasionally healing yourself to having to work with synergies and cool down groups of other stuff which isn't even needed for end-game, suddenly the player has to consider a whole plethora of weird TRIBBLE the game never even prepared them for, its practically like just joining a whole different game.
On top of this, thanks to the way PvP works in this game you either find a group of like minded and similarly geared/skilled players (highly unusual for a new player.) or you have to climb a super-massive ladder of grind/rep/gear in order to actually stand a chance.
Now alot of people say 'huhehuehueheu its skill rofl gear doenst mean anything', im sorry to say that this is simply bull. Did you defeat someone with all white Mk X gear? Nice job, you probably killed someone who was trash at the game anyways or had no clue what he was doing with his build, either that or your magical all Mk X white gear defeat was augmented by your super JHAS and a hyper-tuned set-up with full rep buffs, billion EC doffs, and boff race bonuses.
That's the problem, there is almost NEVER an equal match for both sides, chances are one side of the PvP conflict is going to have turbo-pros while the other side will have new people, or one side will have over-powered P2W consoles/ships while the other wont, this is but a symptom of having literally 90% of all of the games content be at END-GAME, not allowing for much lower level PvP or introducing it gradually.
The final nail in the coffin is this game trying to gear this game for 4 v 4 pvp or something while, for some reason, also having a free pvp zone and duels even though the game isn't balanced for it in the slightest, all it does is breed a toxic environment for the new player, so before they even get to the more organized team play they've already decided PvP isn't worth it (which is pretty much true) and wont ever touch it again, boot-camp or not.
Just giving a quick read over it appears everyone who has made a post here has stated thst while you don't need to pay to win, you do need borg gear and mark Xl or XII gear. And since I just started playing the game I do not own those or have the resources to buy them. So my original statement stands that it is pointless for me to attempt pvp at the moment.
The main problem with PvP, or at least the problems I experienced when I started a few months ago (and promptly quit) is this:
Simply put, its far too much complexity far too quickly for any player to handle without help, and even if they get past that, the 'ladder' to actual PvP is insanely high.
You go from shooting things with beams and occasionally healing yourself to having to work with synergies and cool down groups of other stuff which isn't even needed for end-game, suddenly the player has to consider a whole plethora of weird TRIBBLE the game never even prepared them for, its practically like just joining a whole different game.
On top of this, thanks to the way PvP works in this game you either find a group of like minded and similarly geared/skilled players (highly unusual for a new player.) or you have to climb a super-massive ladder of grind/rep/gear in order to actually stand a chance.
Now alot of people say 'huhehuehueheu its skill rofl gear doenst mean anything', im sorry to say that this is simply bull. Did you defeat someone with all white Mk X gear? Nice job, you probably killed someone who was trash at the game anyways or had no clue what he was doing with his build, either that or your magical all Mk X white gear defeat was augmented by your super JHAS and a hyper-tuned set-up with full rep buffs, billion EC doffs, and boff race bonuses.
That's the problem, there is almost NEVER an equal match for both sides, chances are one side of the PvP conflict is going to have turbo-pros while the other side will have new people, or one side will have over-powered P2W consoles/ships while the other wont, this is but a symptom of having literally 90% of all of the games content be at END-GAME, not allowing for much lower level PvP or introducing it gradually.
The final nail in the coffin is this game trying to gear this game for 4 v 4 pvp or something while, for some reason, also having a free pvp zone and duels even though the game isn't balanced for it in the slightest, all it does is breed a toxic environment for the new player, so before they even get to the more organized team play they've already decided PvP isn't worth it (which is pretty much true) and wont ever touch it again, boot-camp or not.
+1 to this, and I submit that in one form or another the majority of players who don't PvP have this as the basis of their dislike of PvP.
Not all, but most. You may have different reasons. (However, I challenge you to reexamine your reasons and see if this isn't at least some part of your issue.)
Just giving a quick read over it appears everyone who has made a post here has stated thst while you don't need to pay to win, you do need borg gear and mark Xl or XII gear. And since I just started playing the game I do not own those or have the resources to buy them. So my original statement stands that it is pointless for me to attempt pvp at the moment.
I began PvP play with Mk X blue and green gear with the Jem set from the (then new) 2800 FE. Even today my Sci ship goes into PvP with Mk X purple beams because they were the only [Acc]x3 beams I could afford, and are still as good for my purposes as any Mk XII gear. (Weapons power setting 25, so I'm not using them for damage anyway.)
I began PvP play with Mk X blue and green gear with the Jem set from the (then new) 2800 FE. Even today my Sci ship goes into PvP with Mk X purple beams because they were the only [Acc]x3 beams I could afford, and are still as good for my purposes as any Mk XII gear. (Weapons power setting 25, so I'm not using them for damage anyway.)
But what about your shields and consoles? Are they also MK X ? The Jem set sounds like it would be equivalent to the borg set at least in terms that you didnt go in without special equipment.
But what about your shields and consoles? Are they also MK X ? The Jem set sounds like it would be equivalent to the borg set at least in terms that you didnt go in without special equipment.
Not any more. I grinded elite STF's for the 3piece Borg with MACO shield,and along the way found or bought the consoles I needed to support my build.
However, when I began PvP I ran the Jem shield and an assortment of consoles I happened to pick up along the way. The entire Jem'Hadar set comes from the DS9 missions, which come long before end game. I had to do them twice because my first set was Mk VIII.
I can tell you all day that gear isn't the primary issue, (though it is becoming one with all the fleet gear now available.) You'll have to PvP yourself over the learning curve before you believe it.
I was one who adamantly refused to believe gear wasn't the primary issue with my performance in PvP until I began to learn. It does help, and between equally skilled players gear can make a difference, but most PvP'ers can go up against the best PvE'ers with white gear only and take them down. The reason is all the things you don't learn in PvE, such as power synergy with skills and with other powers, timing, (which can only be learned by practicing,) and teamwork, (which is so vital to PvP and almost irrelevant in all but the top end elite STF's.)
For example: In a science ship I can tank fairly well. But I'm not really contributing to the team when I do, because there are better ships to tank in and while I'm tanking I'm not able to use my sci powers effectively. Instead, if I coordinate with my tac guy, I can hit his target with SNB just after the target has executed his buff cycle, then sensor scan him to drop his resistances, then for fun I can Photonic Shockwave him for a short stun. With this setup I almost never do any damage, but what he has left in the way of powers can't stop my Tac friend from chewing him up. Meanwhile, our Engineer buddy in a cruiser sees our Tac getting shot at by the remainder of the team and Extends Shields and sends Engineering Teams to offer more resistance to the enemy attacks.
Gear only marginally affects what I have described above. You cannot put enough gear on a ship to overcome the deficiencies of a rainbow-skilled captain, and a specifically skilled captain can't do it all alone. Teamwork. It's not just for PvP, but in PvP it's mandatory.
@ all those pve'ers blaming pvp-community as elitits:
u may should remember that every pvp'er is a pve'er as well, due to the how the game is build.
u also may should consider that the better pvp'ers are probalby expert pve'ers due to gearing out several ships/toons for pvp (for what u have to do a lot of pve stuff).
just read my sig... it's kinda sad if someone doesn't want to share his sandbox with people who may have other preferences...
u shouldn't be scared of anything that may brings some challenge and balance back into pve.
if no one points fingers on balancing issues and decent bugs this game probably would just get more and more op and broken stuff (while it actually already seems to move in that direction)...
also, just out of my own experience (i don't say all pve'ers fit in this):
u learn almost nothing about game mechanics in pve content. for me the first time knowledge about mechanics became improtant has been when i started to pvp (and got owned quite some time)...
Ill tell you why i dont pvp alot , all pvp in this game is really is RDM , no real substance to it . Yes there are nuances , but really if you take the aforementioned BSGO , that has what PVP needs in STO . you need real objectives to hold on too , and react too . give it that WAR feel to it .
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This is actually very close to the underlying problem.
Some people want PvP to be a game.
Some people want PvP to be a sport.
Some people want PvP to be a war.
In general, MMO implementations tend to lean towards "war." Most people don't really care for that, and therefore, most people don't care for PvP in MMOs.
The problem is that people seem to insist that the way to get more people to PvP is to make them (somehow) like war. I think that's misguided. I think there's a vast untapped potential base of players for an MMO company that actually manages to make PvP be more like a game or a sport.
So if you want to Cheat.. er PvP, use a Sci Ship.
You don't even have to think about it, just keybind everything and spam the space bar and you'll be "fighting" like the pros. Especially if you can get into a like minded Spawn Camping... er I mean PvP group.
Or you could play Star Trek instead.
I have said many times that a great solution to the pvp problem would be to just get rid of the space element and concentrate on the ground for I believe its there they can really go to town in providing a highly engaging and fun experience with all the various ground modes you could have like team deathmatch,hord mode, zombies etc yes I know it would mean changing the the combat system to being something a lot more FPS well so be it evolution and change is good.
They could really learn a thing or two from games like League Of Legends and Neverwinter every time am on there I feel happy to pvp for an hour or so its because its intense fun and engaging plus you have the added tention of healthy competition with those sliding bars showing which team has the most domination
The flip side of all this is if Cryptic and PWE are not prepared to invest developmental or financial resources then they may as well just pull it out completely and save us all the hassle of it being there.
LOL it does take skill to fly in space. try to fly in PVP and tell me it does not take skill
Ground is Horrible IMO and this game is NOT League
Neverwinter PVP = Rogue or nothing
/10char
While that may be true , my observations have been that the opposite can be true as well .
Meaning that a well meaning PVP-er can give you advice and load outs that are not what you need in PVE .
Let's look at "bad" advice from PVP-ers to PVE-ers :
- Look at the builds that have one single healing ability (usually HE) .
How much will that help when a Neghvar and a Raptor and a Cube are all pounding on you in CSE ?
- Make your Tac ship a speed Tank .
Has zipping around like a madman helped you to be better at an STF ?
No .
That just helps to evade the constant incoming fire in PVP .
- The PVP master would say : "Engineering Team ? Lol , use AUX2SiF !" .
Believe it or not , ET actually still works both in PVE and in PVP .
- The player called 'thissler' makes awesome PVP videos , but his hit & run style and build leaves him cloaked about 20-30% of a PVP game .
How would ppl see a player who stays that long under cloak in an STF .
In short , contrary to many a PVP-er's belief , "what's good for PVP is good for PVE" is not always true (IMHO) .
Now I'll give you another side as well :
Before this season , or even before the "reputations" and the Doffs were introduced , I took a certain pride in saying that I was an STF-er .
I can't say that anymore .
It's not hard anymore . There is not journey . There is no great accomplishment .
There's only the "how fast can I do it this time ?" .
But the rift between experienced and well equipped PVP / PVE player grows with each new reputation and with each new load of Doffs , with each new Fleet & Lockbox ship .
And that's not all .
I PVP from time to time , but I do it to have fun my way . MY WAY .
Not the "look at the powers used by the other guy and calculate my move like a chess game" , nor the "Look at my awesome DPS that I just parsed" way .
I just want to Pew Pew .
And when I see a ship that cannot be brought down by 3 or more players (non Sci) , I recall that it was not like this when I started to PVP 2.5 years ago .
Congrats you have figured out that your fighting pre-made bots that auto heal when you damage them below 25%
Thats why their running PVP boot camps to increase the PVP server load instead of revamping the whole system or making the Kerat system in to PVP war zone with objectives.
PVP is so fubar right now you might as well just remove it from the game.
I see what you mean, and I agree. However, there's a limit to the realism you can put into a game. Especially an MMO. Imagine the programming nightmare they would have to do, to make the game act exactly like real life.
(For the record, if STO's combat system allows me to do ANYTHING, I'd be the first one up to use "burst of warp speed" quick attacks in my cruisers.)
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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A lot of people call it PvE vs PvP, but I suggest that part of the problem is that many of us do not want to macro everything to the space bar, have others heal us, or pay out the wazzuu for the latest OP Doff/console. Many Star Trek fans want to command their own ship and have teammates that do the same, not this cross healing, magical 0-100% healthbar, arena game.
PS (If gravity wells are 'magic' then what is attack pattern alpha? It just magically increases damage with no explanation, you can even do it while sitting still, so no, it is not a 'pattern'. How does it increase mine damage or tractor repulsors anyway? Magic!)
To say for an mmo is a bit limiting for other games like League of Legends they have made a very robust system which allows for plenty of creativity
Be great if I could get the drop on my enemies from above on a ledge and leap down on my enemies and take them out that way.
As I said though if they are not prepared to invest any significant resources into addressing the pvp problem and the game mechanics then nothing we come up with will matter, since pvp doesn't rake in the big bucks new ships and other shinys do :P lol.
You're right, there are dozens of reasons people evade PvP. It's not the learning curve for everybody, but apparently it is for you as can be seen in the rest of your post:
Maybe if you try applying some sense and common knowledge instead of loking for spell books you'd do better. It's a MMO game, it's bound to have abilities like those.
Those built in abilities are to offset the fact that the science ships have only 6 weapon slots in a highly DPS centered game. I don't see why anyone should complain about that.
Aaaaaand now you're either trolling or trying to get people to laugh at you. (although I have no idea why you'd want people to laugh at you)
And using the " You can't spell 'BoP' without 'OP' " line?
I've always felt that their should be a general placate/immobilize immunity in pvp that occurs at the end of being affected by one. Also, certain abilities need to share cooldowns with themselves. Nothing quite like being hit with a viral matrix, moments after you just cleansed the first one.
Respeccing has also been another issue of mine. In other games you either have to pay an in game currency, had different specs to swap out, or sometimes was even free to respec your character. This is true for most MMOs including STO that your general effectiveness will be determined by your spec. If you want to excel in pvp you'll need to spec for it. Unfortunately STO charges five dollars a respect token and I don't care to spend ten dollars to spec for pvp and back to pve everytime I decide to do PVP lol.
Lastly, the pvp community is just awful. I mean you thought some people could get mean in STFs, pvp is the worse :P. One night I decided to experiment with a stealth Kumari. It would come out of stealth and one shot people with cannon overload. It wasn't particularly effective for pvp matches, but every 3-5 minutes or so when all my buffs came off cooldown I could sneak up on somebody and one shot them with cannon overload. The name calling, swearing, and general racism I got from people was pretty intense. This one guy started calling me these names to which I could only assume to be a Middle Eastern equivalent form of racial swearing. I didn't understand the meaning of it, but it was somewhat amusing. After that I haven't touched public PVP anymore. I still do fleet pvp night with my fleet. It's fun because we randomly set up teams so it's rarely lopsided because we don't organize, use strategies, or build our characters for it, we just go in shoot each other and have fun.
Speculating on why somebody else does or does not, is not very helpful - and - well, just wrong.
Folks can share why they do not PvP, why perhaps they PvP in other games but do not PvP in STO, etc, etc, etc.
Some of the reasons, could potentially be argued - there's no doubt about that. Much like some of the reasons simply cannot be argued. Tom doesn't like PvP - Jerry can't tell Tom he's wrong.
Different people enjoy different things, different people think differently about certain things that are involved, etc, etc, etc...
If Cryptic wants an answer about such a thing, they could send out a survey to folks - and - they would have an answer.
Discussing it in a thread, well - it's generally going to be of limited use...which I think 11 pages or so has shown so far.
I think you are seriously under-examining this.
Here's one reason why I hardly ever PvP - I like to Kirk. Plain and simple. I am proud of this fact. Telling someone they are "Kirk"ing is an insult here. And I like my tac in a cruiser. I am indifferent to the 'trinity' if not viewing it as hindering the game in some regards. I also like powers and equipment that some say are hideous for PvP. My play style is incompatible with a lot of PvP. And I'm not interested in these things resulting in the endless series of insults I've seen regarding the system.
And yes, I've tried PvP occasionally. I pretty well suck at it IMO.
This is not a cut-and-dried issue. There are hundreds of reasons why someone might not want to PvP, and some might just boil down to flat-out "I don't like it." The way I want to run the game is largely incompatible with successful PvP and I do not have much interest in being a clay pigeon. This may change at some point, but for the moment it is unlikely.
Not sure why you'd be using mouse clicks instead of keyboard shortcuts.
I do play a sci ship in PvP and I can tell you that this is completely untrue. Sci ships are marginalized to a very large degree, and serve as support ships when they do show up in PvP.
The sci ship, more than any other, demands teamwork on the part of the player. You cannot DPS enough to take down escorts, and you can't tank enough to keep up with the cruisers. In fact, Sci/Tacs and Sci/Cruisers outperform Sci ships on a regular basis in PvP, as the top end Sci powers are of limited use in PvP.
For example, Gravity Well III is awesome against NPC ships. A Player run ship simply flies away from it like it's not even there.
If you are spacebar-spamming sci powers in PvP you will be largely ineffective, because to be an effective Sci captain you must, not should but must, coordinate your offensive tactics with your tactical ships.
The role of the Sci ship in PvP is to help his team win, but you can't count on getting any kills. This is the kind of thing you won't learn from PvE, where even Tachyon Beam is useful.
I submit that any marginally successful PvP'er can take his PvP build as is in any STF and outperform his best PvE build from before he learned PvP.
There are several misconceptions in your post I will address. Please do not assume I am trying to insult you or anyone else, but that I am trying to clear up false assumptions.
One healing ability: in PvP we learn to cross heal, and rely upon our teammates to keep us alive in a fight. A tac ship built for DPS cannot heal half as well as a cruiser or sci ship, and prioritizing self-healing means he cannot specialize in DPS, which is the tac ship's job. This translates well into PvE, because in any STF where cross healing is employed you can keep your team on the line and fighting longer. Time spent on respawn timer or with critical injuries is a detriment to your team, and the habit of cross healing and being aware of the buffs and debuffs on your ship and your team's ships makes doing STF's all that much easier.
Make your ship a speed tank: While marginally useful, speed in and of itself is not going to help you win PvP. It may help keep you alive on occasion, but PvP is about kills, and if you speed away from the battle you leave your team one man short and more susceptible to being killed.
Engineering Team: A useful power both for self and team, where Aux2SIF is solely your own ship. No single ship can tank against a team for long, no matter what power setup, and if a team is concentrating on one guy, that guy's team needs to be healing him. I've never heard anyone in PvP recommend not having heals that can be used on other players. Take that one to OPvP and see what they say.
Cloaked: Cloaked ships can't attack... err, until recently, that is... A ship which remains cloaked is not helping his team in PvP. While useful, a cloak is not going to help you get kills unless you also incorporate timing and tactics into it's use, the idea being to maximize the damage output, not minimize the time other players can see you. If a ship is spending 20% of the battle cloaked, he is leaving his team a man short for 20% of the battle, and thus is a detriment to his team's chance of winning.
Gear: The rift between PvE'ers and PvP'ers isn't gear. Especially now with Rep, but it has always been the case that PvP'ers got their gear from STF's and C/Z store, which is also wheree the PvE'ers get their gear. If both sides have the exact same opportunity to get gear from the same source then assigning any portion of blame to gear is completely missing the point.
If you want to pew pew against skilless, repetitive, and non-adaptable AI controlled ships, by all means have fun. I'm not trying to take your game away from you. What I am trying to do is generate some interest in creating opportunities for guys like you who have tried PvP and left it, and for guys who have never tried PvP, to become interested in it.
PvP is fun once you get over the learning curve. Even if you don't want to try it personally, why object to offering an opportunity to those who may want to but get only frustration from the current system?
1.) Because if he wants to use his mouse he should be able too. Theres no reason for it not to activate upon being clicked.
2.) You shouldnt HAVE to use keyboard shortcuts to get game mechanics to work properly.
Simply put, its far too much complexity far too quickly for any player to handle without help, and even if they get past that, the 'ladder' to actual PvP is insanely high.
You go from shooting things with beams and occasionally healing yourself to having to work with synergies and cool down groups of other stuff which isn't even needed for end-game, suddenly the player has to consider a whole plethora of weird TRIBBLE the game never even prepared them for, its practically like just joining a whole different game.
On top of this, thanks to the way PvP works in this game you either find a group of like minded and similarly geared/skilled players (highly unusual for a new player.) or you have to climb a super-massive ladder of grind/rep/gear in order to actually stand a chance.
Now alot of people say 'huhehuehueheu its skill rofl gear doenst mean anything', im sorry to say that this is simply bull. Did you defeat someone with all white Mk X gear? Nice job, you probably killed someone who was trash at the game anyways or had no clue what he was doing with his build, either that or your magical all Mk X white gear defeat was augmented by your super JHAS and a hyper-tuned set-up with full rep buffs, billion EC doffs, and boff race bonuses.
That's the problem, there is almost NEVER an equal match for both sides, chances are one side of the PvP conflict is going to have turbo-pros while the other side will have new people, or one side will have over-powered P2W consoles/ships while the other wont, this is but a symptom of having literally 90% of all of the games content be at END-GAME, not allowing for much lower level PvP or introducing it gradually.
The final nail in the coffin is this game trying to gear this game for 4 v 4 pvp or something while, for some reason, also having a free pvp zone and duels even though the game isn't balanced for it in the slightest, all it does is breed a toxic environment for the new player, so before they even get to the more organized team play they've already decided PvP isn't worth it (which is pretty much true) and wont ever touch it again, boot-camp or not.
+1 to this, and I submit that in one form or another the majority of players who don't PvP have this as the basis of their dislike of PvP.
Not all, but most. You may have different reasons. (However, I challenge you to reexamine your reasons and see if this isn't at least some part of your issue.)
I began PvP play with Mk X blue and green gear with the Jem set from the (then new) 2800 FE. Even today my Sci ship goes into PvP with Mk X purple beams because they were the only [Acc]x3 beams I could afford, and are still as good for my purposes as any Mk XII gear. (Weapons power setting 25, so I'm not using them for damage anyway.)
But what about your shields and consoles? Are they also MK X ? The Jem set sounds like it would be equivalent to the borg set at least in terms that you didnt go in without special equipment.
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Not any more. I grinded elite STF's for the 3piece Borg with MACO shield,and along the way found or bought the consoles I needed to support my build.
However, when I began PvP I ran the Jem shield and an assortment of consoles I happened to pick up along the way. The entire Jem'Hadar set comes from the DS9 missions, which come long before end game. I had to do them twice because my first set was Mk VIII.
I can tell you all day that gear isn't the primary issue, (though it is becoming one with all the fleet gear now available.) You'll have to PvP yourself over the learning curve before you believe it.
I was one who adamantly refused to believe gear wasn't the primary issue with my performance in PvP until I began to learn. It does help, and between equally skilled players gear can make a difference, but most PvP'ers can go up against the best PvE'ers with white gear only and take them down. The reason is all the things you don't learn in PvE, such as power synergy with skills and with other powers, timing, (which can only be learned by practicing,) and teamwork, (which is so vital to PvP and almost irrelevant in all but the top end elite STF's.)
For example: In a science ship I can tank fairly well. But I'm not really contributing to the team when I do, because there are better ships to tank in and while I'm tanking I'm not able to use my sci powers effectively. Instead, if I coordinate with my tac guy, I can hit his target with SNB just after the target has executed his buff cycle, then sensor scan him to drop his resistances, then for fun I can Photonic Shockwave him for a short stun. With this setup I almost never do any damage, but what he has left in the way of powers can't stop my Tac friend from chewing him up. Meanwhile, our Engineer buddy in a cruiser sees our Tac getting shot at by the remainder of the team and Extends Shields and sends Engineering Teams to offer more resistance to the enemy attacks.
Gear only marginally affects what I have described above. You cannot put enough gear on a ship to overcome the deficiencies of a rainbow-skilled captain, and a specifically skilled captain can't do it all alone. Teamwork. It's not just for PvP, but in PvP it's mandatory.
u may should remember that every pvp'er is a pve'er as well, due to the how the game is build.
u also may should consider that the better pvp'ers are probalby expert pve'ers due to gearing out several ships/toons for pvp (for what u have to do a lot of pve stuff).
just read my sig... it's kinda sad if someone doesn't want to share his sandbox with people who may have other preferences...
u shouldn't be scared of anything that may brings some challenge and balance back into pve.
if no one points fingers on balancing issues and decent bugs this game probably would just get more and more op and broken stuff (while it actually already seems to move in that direction)...
also, just out of my own experience (i don't say all pve'ers fit in this):
u learn almost nothing about game mechanics in pve content. for me the first time knowledge about mechanics became improtant has been when i started to pvp (and got owned quite some time)...