Can someone explain to me how this new holding is supposed to help small fleets?
Old, large fleets have already finished, or nearly finished, their holdings, so they can divert their time maxing out this new holding.
Old, small fleets aren't close to finishing their holdings, and diverting more time maxing out this new holding means delaying previous ones. I know that the new holding is supposed to decrease dilithium costs by 9%, but the overall investment is going to further delay, not speed up, small fleets.
From what I've seen, the Dilithium Mine helps NEW large fleets, not new small fleets, and most certainly not old small fleets. Am I missing something here?
Can someone explain to me how this new holding is supposed to help small fleets?
Old, large fleets have already finished, or nearly finished, their holdings, so they can divert their time maxing out this new holding.
Old, small fleets aren't close to finishing their holdings, and diverting more time maxing out this new holding means delaying previous ones. I know that the new holding is supposed to decrease dilithium costs by 9%, but the overall investment is going to further delay, not speed up, small fleets.
From what I've seen, the Dilithium Mine helps NEW large fleets, not new small fleets, and most certainly not old small fleets. Am I missing something here?
The discounts really dont help anyone. Its a huge dilithium burden for small fleets and it makes getting fleet credits harder in large ones.
Balanced fleets will see the most benefits from the discounts.
Hopefully the other things like the special doff assignments and the mining daily are better helpers
The fix for them was to alter the 3 recruiter personal/consoles to work only with their faction and civilians. Not sure if intended or a mistake. But, now if your at SFA you can only reassign/exchange Fed Doffs and any Civilian. If your at Klingon Academy you can only reassign/exchange KDF Doffs and any Civilian. And if your at New Romulas Command you can only reassign/exchange Romulan Doffs and any Civilian.
When using any of the Recruiters I would have liked to be able to use any doff of my faction KDF/FED and any Romulan doff to be able to reassign/exchange.
Nope - it doesn't work that way. In Romulan Command Center you can exchange only civilians and KDF DOFFs! You can't even exchange Romulan DOFFs there.
This is clearly a mistake, because as a Romulan allied with FED you can't exchange either FED or Romulan doffs. You can only use KDF ones (or civilians). Don't try to convince me that everything is OK when clearly it isn't.
Though the new fleet holding leaves a LOT to be desired. We were promised this new holding would "greatly improve things for small fleets"... What a load of rubbish, all it is is yet another fleet mark sink that's going to take us small fleets the better part of the next year to get through.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
I've updated the patchnotes after speaking with our systems team. The duty officer inputs are "either or" in every case.
A project that used to only require Science duty officers will now accept science OR medical, giving you more options.
A project that had two separate slots with one requiring science and the other requiring medical can now accept either science OR medical, giving you more options.
I've updated the patchnotes after speaking with our systems team. The duty officer inputs are "either or" in every case.
A project that used to only require Science duty officers will now accept science OR medical, giving you more options.
A project that had two separate slots with one requiring science and the other requiring medical can now accept either science OR medical, giving you more options.
I'm hoping this applies to tactical/security ops/eng as well
in any case I could kiss you (but I won't, germs)
This will clean out mailboxes and fix the exchange prices, and relieve a lot of headaches
This is clearly a mistake, because as a Romulan allied with FED you can't exchange either FED or Romulan doffs. You can only use KDF ones (or civilians). Don't try to convince me that everything is OK when clearly it isn't.
Everything makes more sense now... I was wondering why I couldn exchange DOffs on my Romulan.. I've been transferring greens to my fed, getting whites, and transferring those back to my Romulan (for the fleet credits, my fed has enough of those already)
I've updated the patchnotes after speaking with our systems team. The duty officer inputs are "either or" in every case.
A project that used to only require Science duty officers will now accept science OR medical, giving you more options.
A project that had two separate slots with one requiring science and the other requiring medical can now accept either science OR medical, giving you more options.
First hurdle down.
Now about the rest of those fleet holding costs...
I wanted to apologize for any confusion caused by the changes to Duty Officer inputs and to take a moment to clear up any confusion. Here's what you can expect:
Example #1
-Before this patch, a fleet project input might have required Operations department duty officers.
-After this patch this same input will now accept both Operations and Engineering.
NOTE: In many cases the input already did accept both, but the input description didn't state this.
Example #2
-Before this patch, a fleet project that had two duty officer inputs: one for Engineering duty officers and a second one for Operations duty officers.
-After this patch this same project would have two separate inputs, both of which would accept Engineering and Operations duty officers.
The goal here was to address the fact that the level of availability of sub-departments duty officers were generally lower than the parent department duty officers. This made some fleet assignments difficult to complete.
Also, the patch notes will be changed to reflect this. In fact they already might be by the time of me writing this. Hopefully this clears up the confusion. Note that if you find fleet assignments that don't follow the rules in the examples above that is likely a bug and reporting the name of the affected fleet project would be excellent.
Everything makes more sense now... I was wondering why I couldn exchange DOffs on my Romulan.. I've been transferring greens to my fed, getting whites, and transferring those back to my Romulan (for the fleet credits, my fed has enough of those already)
Glad to see that there is someone else who recognise this as a bug... But I would be even better if devs could finally fix it.
The way this reads, it sounds like when you level up the dilithium mine, it allows you to do projects that reduce the amount of dilithium/other resources that you have to put into future projects. Question is, is that reduction for the dilithium mine itself or for all the other fleet holdings? If it's for all of them, this could certainly help small fleets... in a way. Spend resources in this holding so you don't have to spend as much in the others. That's if I'm reading this right.
You are reading this correctly. There will be a dev blog going out soon(tm) that explains this in greater details. The short answer is: any discounts you unlock will affect all holdings, not just the Dilithium Mine. This also includes any future fleet holdings.
I wanted to apologize for any confusion caused by the changes to Duty Officer inputs and to take a moment to clear up any confusion. Here's what you can expect:
Example #1
-Before this patch, a fleet project input might have required Operations department duty officers.
-After this patch this same input will now accept both Operations and Engineering.
NOTE: In many cases the input already did accept both, but the input description didn't state this.
Example #2
-Before this patch, a fleet project that had two duty officer inputs: one for Engineering duty officers and a second one for Operations duty officers.
-After this patch this same project would have two separate inputs, both of which would accept Engineering and Operations duty officers.
The goal here was to address the fact that the level of availability of sub-departments duty officers were generally lower than the parent department duty officers. This made some fleet assignments difficult to complete.
Also, the patch notes will be changed to reflect this. In fact they already might be by the time of me writing this. Hopefully this clears up the confusion. Note that if you find fleet assignments that don't follow the rules in the examples above that is likely a bug and reporting the name of the affected fleet project would be excellent.
Best Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
yay! my fleet will be very happy when this change hits holodeck
I notice the input discounts for items and comodities, fleet marks, dilithium, but not on duty officers, the actual limiting factor for many, many fleets. This actually makes things somewhat worse, since fleet credits are the major source of duty officers to fill those inputs, and discouting everything BUT doffs decreases credit generation.
Also, the fix on duty officer inputs ignores the actual problem:
It's the ones with separate inputs that are the problem, due to huge disparities between some departments availability, such as science officers being roughly five times as common as medical. Many of the others already took either/or and with generally much lower doff inputs the disparities didn't cause issues. The issues are with those 90/90 missions, which the exceptions imply aren't being changed.
The good news is that the Item/Commodity discounts also apply to Duty Officers. The other good news is that the patch notes were updated to reflect how the changes to Duty Officer fleet project inputs actually work.
I've updated the patchnotes after speaking with our systems team. The duty officer inputs are "either or" in every case.
A project that used to only require Science duty officers will now accept science OR medical, giving you more options.
A project that had two separate slots with one requiring science and the other requiring medical can now accept either science OR medical, giving you more options.
Thank you, this is a huge help! Completing projects will be much easier now!
Now, about that paltry discount from the dilithium mine...
You are reading this correctly. There will be a dev blog going out soon(tm) that explains this in greater details. The short answer is: any discounts you unlock will affect all holdings, not just the Dilithium Mine. This also includes any future fleet holdings.
Any comment on why the percentage was set so low on the discounts? Initial maths are coming to the conclusion that the costs to attain the discounts are far, far greater than the actual savings they create. Given DStahl's repeated statements about reducing the burden on fleets, why then is there such a disconnect with what is actually being implemented?
Any comment on why the percentage was set so low on the discounts? Initial maths are coming to the conclusion that the costs to attain the discounts are far, far greater than the actual savings they create.
Take into consideration that 1) there will be a lot of new holdings in the future and 2) there are other benefits from the holding. its not totally about the discounts. they are one aspect of it.
so those discounts will be beneficial for years to come and some of the price is offset by the other rewards.
in saying that i do think the discount should be higher than what they are currently set at.
Take into consideration that 1) there will be a lot of new holdings in the future and 2) there are other benefits from the holding. its not totally about the discounts. they are one aspect of it.
so those discounts will be beneficial for years to come and some of the price is offset by the greater rewards.
in saying that i do think the discount should be higher than what they are currently set at.
1) A fleet would need to build the equivalent of a second full T5 starbase and a full embassy simply to break even on the current implementation of the dilithium mine. To put that in fleet holding terms, you're looking at another 4-5 full fleet holdings before this discount pays for itself.
2) The mine was explicitly called out as the means by which the burden on fleets would be "significantly" reduced by Stahl on multiple occasions.
I've updated the patchnotes after speaking with our systems team. The duty officer inputs are "either or" in every case.
A project that used to only require Science duty officers will now accept science OR medical, giving you more options.
A project that had two separate slots with one requiring science and the other requiring medical can now accept either science OR medical, giving you more options.
The good news is that the Item/Commodity discounts also apply to Duty Officers. The other good news is that the patch notes were updated to reflect how the changes to Duty Officer fleet project inputs actually work.
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
These two changes will greatly benefit every fleet, but large fleets. They won't affect large fleets as much since they have problems with people contributing with projects being filled up within minutes of being available. Maybe add some 30 minute projects that have higher requirements like 1500 Fleet Marks and 500 Duty Officers.
I wanted to apologize for any confusion caused by the changes to Duty Officer inputs and to take a moment to clear up any confusion...
Thanks Gorny Cheese and Burning Lunchmeat Doods (You guys would make an excellent sandwich, just sayin' ) Your clarifications are nice to hear.
Some of the estimates I've seen out there report the Dil Mine requires inputting ~8M Dil into a system to save ~2M Dil. This would seem to not be a savings, even if we consider the new Mine also unlocks new items (consoles, cores, etc.) to buy.
It is my understanding/presumption that the mine will also grant us access to more Refined Dil, more than the usual 8k/day. Is this true? If so, that could help further, but overall, increasing the current 9% max savings would be preferred.
Also, why 3%, 6%, 9%? It leaves for some "ugly" numbers. 5%, 10%, 15-20% discounts would be so much nicer.
:cool:
Anyway, this is just preliminary thoughts. Standing by on the aforementioned Blog for more info.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
1) A fleet would need to build the equivalent of a second full T5 starbase and a full embassy simply to break even on the current implementation of the dilithium mine. To put that in fleet holding terms, you're looking at another 4-5 full fleet holdings before this discount pays for itself.
2) The mine was explicitly called out as the means by which the burden on fleets would be "significantly" reduced by Stahl on multiple occasions.
and i will reiterate again, yes i do believe they discount should be higher, but the fleet system has always been planned as a long term thing. maybe it will take a long time to pay off but the system should be around for an even greater length of time and some are nowhere near tier 5 on their first.
point 1 also ties into point 2. whatever it was called the facts are the facts. there are other rewards on offer from completing it that should not be ignored, just like rewards are from the starbase and embassy. people are not refusing to do them because there is no discount. people will want these rewards just as much.
they will cost a lot to unlock but that then needs to be taken into consideration when making any calculations. the rich vein dilithium reward if its the same thing as the ones from the lockboxes could be a huge boost to gathering dilithium as well for example.
These two changes will greatly benefit every fleet, but large fleets. They won't affect large fleets as much since they have problems with people contributing with projects being filled up within minutes of being available. Maybe add some 30 minute projects that have higher requirements like 1500 Fleet Marks and 500 Duty Officers.
Some of the estimates I've seen out there report the Dil Mine requires inputting ~8M Dil into a system to save ~2M Dil. This would seem to not be a savings, even if we consider the new Mine also unlocks new items (consoles, cores, etc.) to buy.
It is my understanding/presumption that the mine will also grant us access to more Refined Dil, more than the usual 8k/day. Is this true? If so, that could help further, but overall, increasing the current 9% max savings would be preferred.
Also, why 3%, 6%, 9%? It leaves for some "ugly" numbers. 5%, 10%, 15-20% discounts would be so much nicer.
:cool:
Anyway, this is just preliminary thoughts. Standing by on the aforementioned Blog for more info.
The "spend 8 million to save 2 million" number comes from assuming the costs are identical to the Embassy. From what I've been able to gather, that's not entirely the case. Specifically, full Mine Tier upgrades don't seem to have a dilithium cost associated with them.
Based on costs reported in other threads and on STOwiki I ran the numbers this morning (DISCLAIMER: I cannot personally verify the available data, and any additional changes can and will have an impact on the final outcome), and it comes out to spending about 4.3 million to save 2.4 million or so over a full embassy and T5 starbase.
Is there any ETA when we're going to be allowed to enter the Dilithium Mines assuming you have the proper tier unlocked (T1 for interior, T2 for Exterior). Also, currently the inter-fleet shuttle doesn't work as there is no dialog in the Fleet Transporter Room like there is for the Embasy.
Or can you tell us where the location in Sector Space will be? That would be nice to know.
Comments
Dilithium Mining Daily Mission 1
Dilithium Mining Daily Mission 2
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
players wont know until cryptic makes a "door" so we can actually go to the mine
Old, large fleets have already finished, or nearly finished, their holdings, so they can divert their time maxing out this new holding.
Old, small fleets aren't close to finishing their holdings, and diverting more time maxing out this new holding means delaying previous ones. I know that the new holding is supposed to decrease dilithium costs by 9%, but the overall investment is going to further delay, not speed up, small fleets.
From what I've seen, the Dilithium Mine helps NEW large fleets, not new small fleets, and most certainly not old small fleets. Am I missing something here?
The discounts really dont help anyone. Its a huge dilithium burden for small fleets and it makes getting fleet credits harder in large ones.
Balanced fleets will see the most benefits from the discounts.
Hopefully the other things like the special doff assignments and the mining daily are better helpers
If the rich mining daily works like the one in the lockbox, then yea, 5000 dilithium ore in about a minute should help....
thats a big if, and I doubt it will
Nope - it doesn't work that way. In Romulan Command Center you can exchange only civilians and KDF DOFFs! You can't even exchange Romulan DOFFs there.
Here, take a look - I tried to exchange uncommon doffs:
http://imageshack.us/a/img203/1927/warrq.jpg
As you can see, it allowes me to use only civilians and WARRIORS. A warrior is a KDF rank. Not romulan. Uncommon Romulan DOFFs have Uhlan rank. Here is the proof:
http://imageshack.us/a/img19/1716/uhlan.jpg
This is clearly a mistake, because as a Romulan allied with FED you can't exchange either FED or Romulan doffs. You can only use KDF ones (or civilians). Don't try to convince me that everything is OK when clearly it isn't.
Though the new fleet holding leaves a LOT to be desired. We were promised this new holding would "greatly improve things for small fleets"... What a load of rubbish, all it is is yet another fleet mark sink that's going to take us small fleets the better part of the next year to get through.
A project that used to only require Science duty officers will now accept science OR medical, giving you more options.
A project that had two separate slots with one requiring science and the other requiring medical can now accept either science OR medical, giving you more options.
I'm hoping this applies to tactical/security ops/eng as well
in any case I could kiss you
This will clean out mailboxes and fix the exchange prices, and relieve a lot of headaches
Everything makes more sense now... I was wondering why I couldn exchange DOffs on my Romulan.. I've been transferring greens to my fed, getting whites, and transferring those back to my Romulan (for the fleet credits, my fed has enough of those already)
First hurdle down.
Now about the rest of those fleet holding costs...
I wanted to apologize for any confusion caused by the changes to Duty Officer inputs and to take a moment to clear up any confusion. Here's what you can expect:
Example #1
-Before this patch, a fleet project input might have required Operations department duty officers.
-After this patch this same input will now accept both Operations and Engineering.
NOTE: In many cases the input already did accept both, but the input description didn't state this.
Example #2
-Before this patch, a fleet project that had two duty officer inputs: one for Engineering duty officers and a second one for Operations duty officers.
-After this patch this same project would have two separate inputs, both of which would accept Engineering and Operations duty officers.
The goal here was to address the fact that the level of availability of sub-departments duty officers were generally lower than the parent department duty officers. This made some fleet assignments difficult to complete.
Also, the patch notes will be changed to reflect this. In fact they already might be by the time of me writing this. Hopefully this clears up the confusion. Note that if you find fleet assignments that don't follow the rules in the examples above that is likely a bug and reporting the name of the affected fleet project would be excellent.
Best Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
Glad to see that there is someone else who recognise this as a bug... But I would be even better if devs could finally fix it.
Find us at CovenantofHonor.com. My Twitter handle; @jmattmiracle
You are reading this correctly. There will be a dev blog going out soon(tm) that explains this in greater details. The short answer is: any discounts you unlock will affect all holdings, not just the Dilithium Mine. This also includes any future fleet holdings.
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
yay! my fleet will be very happy when this change hits holodeck
The good news is that the Item/Commodity discounts also apply to Duty Officers. The other good news is that the patch notes were updated to reflect how the changes to Duty Officer fleet project inputs actually work.
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
Thank you, this is a huge help! Completing projects will be much easier now!
Now, about that paltry discount from the dilithium mine...
Any comment on why the percentage was set so low on the discounts? Initial maths are coming to the conclusion that the costs to attain the discounts are far, far greater than the actual savings they create. Given DStahl's repeated statements about reducing the burden on fleets, why then is there such a disconnect with what is actually being implemented?
Take into consideration that 1) there will be a lot of new holdings in the future and 2) there are other benefits from the holding. its not totally about the discounts. they are one aspect of it.
so those discounts will be beneficial for years to come and some of the price is offset by the other rewards.
in saying that i do think the discount should be higher than what they are currently set at.
Fleet Project input discounts from the Dilithium Mine only apply to fleet projects, not reputation projects.
It varies depending on rarity of doff assignment and whether you get a critical success or not.
The Miner DOFFs are intended to make the Dilithium Mine daily DOFF assignments easier.
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
1) A fleet would need to build the equivalent of a second full T5 starbase and a full embassy simply to break even on the current implementation of the dilithium mine. To put that in fleet holding terms, you're looking at another 4-5 full fleet holdings before this discount pays for itself.
2) The mine was explicitly called out as the means by which the burden on fleets would be "significantly" reduced by Stahl on multiple occasions.
These two changes will greatly benefit every fleet, but large fleets. They won't affect large fleets as much since they have problems with people contributing with projects being filled up within minutes of being available. Maybe add some 30 minute projects that have higher requirements like 1500 Fleet Marks and 500 Duty Officers.
Thanks Gorny Cheese and Burning Lunchmeat Doods (You guys would make an excellent sandwich, just sayin'
Some of the estimates I've seen out there report the Dil Mine requires inputting ~8M Dil into a system to save ~2M Dil. This would seem to not be a savings, even if we consider the new Mine also unlocks new items (consoles, cores, etc.) to buy.
It is my understanding/presumption that the mine will also grant us access to more Refined Dil, more than the usual 8k/day. Is this true? If so, that could help further, but overall, increasing the current 9% max savings would be preferred.
Also, why 3%, 6%, 9%? It leaves for some "ugly" numbers. 5%, 10%, 15-20% discounts would be so much nicer.
:cool:
Anyway, this is just preliminary thoughts. Standing by on the aforementioned Blog for more info.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
and i will reiterate again, yes i do believe they discount should be higher, but the fleet system has always been planned as a long term thing. maybe it will take a long time to pay off but the system should be around for an even greater length of time and some are nowhere near tier 5 on their first.
point 1 also ties into point 2. whatever it was called the facts are the facts. there are other rewards on offer from completing it that should not be ignored, just like rewards are from the starbase and embassy. people are not refusing to do them because there is no discount. people will want these rewards just as much.
they will cost a lot to unlock but that then needs to be taken into consideration when making any calculations. the rich vein dilithium reward if its the same thing as the ones from the lockboxes could be a huge boost to gathering dilithium as well for example.
these discounts are optional projects
I doubt my fleet will do the fleetmark discount
The "spend 8 million to save 2 million" number comes from assuming the costs are identical to the Embassy. From what I've been able to gather, that's not entirely the case. Specifically, full Mine Tier upgrades don't seem to have a dilithium cost associated with them.
Based on costs reported in other threads and on STOwiki I ran the numbers this morning (DISCLAIMER: I cannot personally verify the available data, and any additional changes can and will have an impact on the final outcome), and it comes out to spending about 4.3 million to save 2.4 million or so over a full embassy and T5 starbase.
Still not a win by any means.
Or can you tell us where the location in Sector Space will be? That would be nice to know.