Any chance of looking at fleet mines which are broken? They all come with dmgx3 which does not work on mines making them useless compared to normal mines.
and i will reiterate again, yes i do believe they discount should be higher, but the fleet system has always been planned as a long term thing.
Time gating is already occuring. Or did you miss the 20 hours or 7 days it takes to complete each project? Running at maximum efficiency (IE: projects finishing exactly when they are begun) you're looking at taking over a year to complete a T5 starbase alone.
A full year is the best case scenario. And that's not even taking into consideration resource requirements.
point 1 also ties into point 2. whatever it was called the facts are the facts. there are other rewards on offer from completing it that should not be ignored, just like rewards are from the starbase and embassy. people are not refusing to do them because there is no discount. people will want these rewards just as much.
Rewards are entirely irrelevant when groups are unable to reach those rewards.
they will cost a lot to unlock but that then needs to be taken into consideration when making any calculations. the rich vein dilithium reward if its the same thing as the ones from the lockboxes could be a huge boost to gathering dilithium as well for example.
Ore gathering isn't a roadblock, and you know it. It's the refining cap.
Time gating is already occuring. Or did you miss the 20 hours or 7 days it takes to complete each project? Running at maximum efficiency (IE: projects finishing exactly when they are begun) you're looking at taking over a year to complete a T5 starbase alone.
A full year is the best case scenario. And that's not even taking into consideration resource requirements.
That's not long term enough for you?
people complained when it first turned up that taking a year was a long time and here we are a year later. people will be running projects for years and years to come.
if the game is around for the next 10 years and being updated then the guarantee the starbase system will be around for 10 years too. when i say long term, i mean long term.
Rewards are entirely irrelevant when groups are unable to reach those rewards.
well people are completing them, and they are getting their rewards, even in smaller fleets. so no it cant be ignored.
Ore gathering isn't a roadblock, and you know it. It's the refining cap.
of course its a roadblock. do you honestly think every fleet member logs on every single day and hits their 8k limit all the time? a lot will, and a massive amount wont. if people can get 5k of dilithium (assuming its like the lockbox) in 2 minutes then it will greatly help.
Thanks for your commentary and clarification about the Mine's actual costs.
>nods in consideration< Hmmm...
First, let's agree we're all talking about stuff on a Test server, subject to change, not all data is provided, etc... With that as a given, let's look at your numbers may be closer to ~4.3M in to save ~2.4M. Better. I can't judge if that's not a win yet...
On one hand, that ~2.4M savings assumes a new Starbase/Embassy. Established Fleets who are, say half-done with each, are only gonna save ~1.2 (just generalizing) by spending ~4.3... Surely that's a Loss.
And while the Mine saves on non-Dil inputs too. It's gonna cost more in non-dil factors than it saves, I'd bet (I haven't worked the numbers).
Looking at the future, we "know" more Holdings will come. If building that 4.2M mine saves us 1-2M on each, we'll finally break even after 3-4 Holdings. That... should be considered a Win, right?
The Mine I think also lets us get more Refined Dil each day, which helps with other non-Fleet stuff (Rep system, Dil store, etc.), right? Plus the Mine has access to things like the Consoles and Warp Cores.
Hmm...
It's really hard to judge with the existing data. The max 9% still feels low, and clearly this is MOAR GRIND (but that's, sadly, to be expected in a F2P game >sigh< ). If we could nudge up to a max 12-15% savings and/or reduced Mine cost... I'd be happier.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Fleet input discounts (Dilithium, Item and Fleet Marks) are automatically unlocked when you increase the appropriate holding's tier. There isn't a required construction project for these fleet input discounts.
This will not be the last Fleet Holding so any discounts from this Holding will go towards the other Fleet Holdings that have not been developed yet. The fact that it has Advanced and Elite Warp Engines mean that fleets would go after this Fleet Holding no matter what. The Discounts and Rich Dilithium Mining just means that this Fleet Holding will be better than most. This Fleet Holding is not completely meant for those fleets at Tier 4 and Tier 5. Any new fleet or stuck fleet will benefit from this immensely with the discounts and additional dilithium from it. I just wish this Fleet Holding was available in Season 6 or replaced the Embassy Fleet Holding.
Looking at the future, we "know" more Holdings will come. If building that 4.2M mine saves us 1-2M on each, we'll finally break even after 3-4 Holdings. That... should be considered a Win, right?
Using the embassy as a guide, you're saving roughly 750k dilith per fleet holding.
To be perfectly blunt, having to wait another year, maybe two, for something that was repeatedly described as being a "signficiant improvement" in fleet costs simply to break even is not a win by any stretch of the imagination.
people complained when it first turned up that taking a year was a long time and here we are a year later. people will be running projects for years and years to come.
if the game is around for the next 10 years and being updated then the guarantee the starbase system will be around for 10 years too. when i say long term, i mean long term.
"It's completely alright if this thing takes forever to accomplish"
I don't have words to describe how misguided that is.
well people are completing them, and they are getting their rewards, even in smaller fleets. so no it cant be ignored.
I must have missed the part where every single fleet has a full T5 starbase, a completed embassy and a button waiting to be pressed to give them a full dilithium mine.
Fleet holdings are setup in such a way that an incredibly large number of fleets have zero realistic chance of finishing them this decade. You may be alright with that. I most definitely am not.
of course its a roadblock. do you honestly think every fleet member logs on every single day and hits their 8k limit all the time? a lot will, and a massive amount wont. if people can get 5k of dilithium (assuming its like the lockbox) in 2 minutes then it will greatly help.
Over capping on ore does zero good when you're still barred from utilizing that over gathered amount. Once again, this is not news.
This is clearly a mistake, because as a Romulan allied with FED you can't exchange either FED or Romulan doffs. You can only use KDF ones (or civilians). Don't try to convince me that everything is OK when clearly it isn't.
These changes are on Tribble now - what you are showing me is what is on Holodeck at the moment which is a mistake. I have looked at both KDF-ROM and FED-ROM on Tribble just now and it is like I said eariler - FED recruiter only takes FED ranked officer and any civilian, KDF is KDF and any civilian, and Rom take Rom and any Civilian.
Now I noticed a couple of the bound initial doffs could be used to reassign/exchange, but they were in the wrong quality - a couple commons came up in the uncommon, and at least 1 uncommon though he was common.
Now the thing that I don't like is the Romulan Recruiter gives a random faction doff and not just Romulans.
"It's completely alright if this thing takes forever to accomplish"
I don't have words to describe how misguided that is.
Ok, let me try and be very clear because you dont seem to be reading what i am actually writing.
for the third time i am going to say this, i believe the discount should be higher.
i just want to be crystal clear that i am not happy with the current discount and i think it should be greater. this is a test server and any thing can change. that is part of my feedback. if they change it that will make a big difference to the numbers.
i never said its ok if it takes forever in any way shape or form. i said the system is going to be around for years and years and it will be. if the dilithium mine has been here from day 1 it would have made a lot of sense, but it came a year late. nevertheless its here now and the benefits will be felt down the road. the fact you dont want to think 5, 10, or 15 years down the road does not mean the devs should not.
I must have missed the part where every single fleet has a full T5 starbase, a completed embassy and a button waiting to be pressed to give them a full dilithium mine.
Fleet holdings are setup in such a way that an incredibly large number of fleets have zero realistic chance of finishing them this decade. You may be alright with that. I most definitely am not.
probably because i never said that anyone did. im saying people are completing the different tiers and getting the rewards. im not saying everyone has maxed out everything. the rewards come in stages and even the smallest fleet can do tiers 1, and its not going to take people this decades to finish unless they put next to no work in or have next to no members. the projects are doable quite easily if even a handful of people put the work in.
not everyone will. some people will have dead fleets or just dont have the time to put the work in. thats fine but thats also not my problem. thats their choice to be in a small fleet, with people who cant contribute well enough. you cant account an entire system that has an upper limit of 500 with a fleet of 4 people who cant or wont work for it.
yes the rewards need to be taken into account. people are doing these holdings and projects with zero discount incentive and those rewards are there and are incentives that go beyond the discount. these must be taken into account when calculating costs. i dont care was said before about the dilithium mine or what you thought it was going to be. i only care about what is physically in the game world. it has discounts and it has rewards. both are valuable.
Over capping on ore does zero good when you're still barred from utilizing that over gathered amount. Once again, this is not news.
once again, of course it does good. you seem to believe that everyone is hitting their caps. i myself opened a lot of boxes and got a lot of claims. i rarely farm dilithium so i earned myself 500'000 dilithium over the past 6 months i would not have earned otherwise. pretty much all of it went into my starbases. even when i do hit my cap, i dont hit it 2 days in a row so the spill over makes up for days when i slack.
Fleet input discounts (Dilithium, Item and Fleet Marks) are automatically unlocked when you increase the appropriate holding's tier. There isn't a required construction project for these fleet input discounts.
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
Ah, yes I read too quickly, I see they are listed under "unlocks" rather than "construction projects"
Why not just make all fleet dilithuim projects cost UNREFINED ore, and all rep projects and gear etc. cost REFINED dil. I think this would help out a lot without adversely effecting other game aspects. Also it would mean that mining claims would actually be useful.
Excellent patch. Love the extra Nukara marks, the Dilithium Mine, and all the bug fixing in general. Any ETA on fixing the stuck STF related accolades? The was some mention of a fix involving commander Roxy, but nothing has been heard in a while.
Do the fleet project input reductions also apply to the Special Projects? If so, can we please get those excluded, as they exist only to generate fleet credits for our members?
I just did some math based on the numbers I'm seeing come out of Tribble. It looks like it will take approximately 4824000 dilithium to max out both Trade and Development, which is required for getting the mine itself to T3. Upgrading the mine itself does not cost any dilithium.
Here's the math if you want to check it. This assumes that the only projects you run to upgrade the tracks are Open Dilithium Trading and Develop Contacts in Nearby Star Systems, which are the most efficient in terms of dilithium per XP point. This doesn't include provisions or other misc upgrades like the Call Trade Freighter cooldown. This also doesn't take into account the dilithium discount from upgrading the mine itself.
Tier 1: 8 x 12500 dil = 100000 dil
Tier 2: 14 x 21000 dil = 294000 dil
Tier 3: 28 x 30000 dil = 840000 dil
Upgrade 1: 78000 dil
Upgrade 2: 350000 dil
Upgrade 3: 750000 dil
Total for one track: 2412000 dil
Total for both tracks: 4824000 dil
After maxing both tracks, it is possible to upgrade the mine itself to tier 3 without spending any more dilithium, though it will cost a substantial amount of fleet credits, DOffs, and other resources.
I decided to do the same as my previous post for FM cost. Same disclaimers as my previous post apply.
Tier 1: 8 x 420 FM = 3360 FM
Tier 2: 14 x 630 FM = 8820 FM
Tier 3: 28 x 840 FM = 23520 FM
Track Upgrade 1: 1890 FM
Track Upgrade 2: 5250 FM
Track Upgrade 3: 10500 FM
Total for one track: 53340 FM
Total for both tracks: 106680 FM
Mine Upgrade 1: 5500 FM
Mine Upgrade 2: 17000 FM
Mine Upgrade 3: 35000 FM
Mine Upgrade total: 57500 FM
Grand Total: 164180 FM
While you are adjusting the inputs to starbase projects, could you please change the 1000 military XP projects to take stackable items instead of photon torpedo launchers. It is quite annoying to click hundreds of times to buy the torpedo launchers from a vendor.
Ore gathering isn't a roadblock, and you know it. It's the refining cap.
I'm shocked there are people that actually think the cap is a real thing.
Literally anyone that can find the C-Store in game has an available solution to infinite refining cap, if that's your only interest. Just make more characters.
Any claims that the cap is inhibitive is being fueled by roleplayers, not by people serious about Dil farming. And since the exchange allows you to move Dil between characters freely just by setting and cancelling purchases at low prices, spare me any "can't move my Dil where I need it" too.
If you've bought 4 character slots, and you actually understand anything about DOFFing at all, you should be making a minimum of 16K dil every day off nothing but DOFFing. Never mind actually doing anything. 16K is really very low as a DOFFing goal, but still.
If you're farming enough Dil for starbase projects you have more than enough to buy infinite cap. People who cap 8K a day then just keep going with one character who think they're being serious about gathering Dil ending up with a goofy 40K backlog in a month are just flat out slow in the head.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
Comments
Time gating is already occuring. Or did you miss the 20 hours or 7 days it takes to complete each project? Running at maximum efficiency (IE: projects finishing exactly when they are begun) you're looking at taking over a year to complete a T5 starbase alone.
A full year is the best case scenario. And that's not even taking into consideration resource requirements.
That's not long term enough for you?
Rewards are entirely irrelevant when groups are unable to reach those rewards.
Ore gathering isn't a roadblock, and you know it. It's the refining cap.
people complained when it first turned up that taking a year was a long time and here we are a year later. people will be running projects for years and years to come.
if the game is around for the next 10 years and being updated then the guarantee the starbase system will be around for 10 years too. when i say long term, i mean long term.
well people are completing them, and they are getting their rewards, even in smaller fleets. so no it cant be ignored.
of course its a roadblock. do you honestly think every fleet member logs on every single day and hits their 8k limit all the time? a lot will, and a massive amount wont. if people can get 5k of dilithium (assuming its like the lockbox) in 2 minutes then it will greatly help.
>nods in consideration< Hmmm...
First, let's agree we're all talking about stuff on a Test server, subject to change, not all data is provided, etc... With that as a given, let's look at your numbers may be closer to ~4.3M in to save ~2.4M. Better. I can't judge if that's not a win yet...
On one hand, that ~2.4M savings assumes a new Starbase/Embassy. Established Fleets who are, say half-done with each, are only gonna save ~1.2 (just generalizing) by spending ~4.3... Surely that's a Loss.
And while the Mine saves on non-Dil inputs too. It's gonna cost more in non-dil factors than it saves, I'd bet (I haven't worked the numbers).
Looking at the future, we "know" more Holdings will come. If building that 4.2M mine saves us 1-2M on each, we'll finally break even after 3-4 Holdings. That... should be considered a Win, right?
The Mine I think also lets us get more Refined Dil each day, which helps with other non-Fleet stuff (Rep system, Dil store, etc.), right? Plus the Mine has access to things like the Consoles and Warp Cores.
Hmm...
It's really hard to judge with the existing data. The max 9% still feels low, and clearly this is MOAR GRIND (but that's, sadly, to be expected in a F2P game >sigh< ). If we could nudge up to a max 12-15% savings and/or reduced Mine cost... I'd be happier.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Fleet input discounts (Dilithium, Item and Fleet Marks) are automatically unlocked when you increase the appropriate holding's tier. There isn't a required construction project for these fleet input discounts.
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
I honestly only ran the numbers for dilith and fleet marks.
Using the embassy as a guide, you're saving roughly 750k dilith per fleet holding.
To be perfectly blunt, having to wait another year, maybe two, for something that was repeatedly described as being a "signficiant improvement" in fleet costs simply to break even is not a win by any stretch of the imagination.
"It's completely alright if this thing takes forever to accomplish"
I don't have words to describe how misguided that is.
I must have missed the part where every single fleet has a full T5 starbase, a completed embassy and a button waiting to be pressed to give them a full dilithium mine.
Fleet holdings are setup in such a way that an incredibly large number of fleets have zero realistic chance of finishing them this decade. You may be alright with that. I most definitely am not.
Over capping on ore does zero good when you're still barred from utilizing that over gathered amount. Once again, this is not news.
These changes are on Tribble now - what you are showing me is what is on Holodeck at the moment which is a mistake. I have looked at both KDF-ROM and FED-ROM on Tribble just now and it is like I said eariler - FED recruiter only takes FED ranked officer and any civilian, KDF is KDF and any civilian, and Rom take Rom and any Civilian.
Now I noticed a couple of the bound initial doffs could be used to reassign/exchange, but they were in the wrong quality - a couple commons came up in the uncommon, and at least 1 uncommon though he was common.
Now the thing that I don't like is the Romulan Recruiter gives a random faction doff and not just Romulans.
Thank you
The discount also applies to the fleet store. Pretty much any dilithium store you come across in fact...
Ok, let me try and be very clear because you dont seem to be reading what i am actually writing.
for the third time i am going to say this, i believe the discount should be higher.
i just want to be crystal clear that i am not happy with the current discount and i think it should be greater. this is a test server and any thing can change. that is part of my feedback. if they change it that will make a big difference to the numbers.
i never said its ok if it takes forever in any way shape or form. i said the system is going to be around for years and years and it will be. if the dilithium mine has been here from day 1 it would have made a lot of sense, but it came a year late. nevertheless its here now and the benefits will be felt down the road. the fact you dont want to think 5, 10, or 15 years down the road does not mean the devs should not.
probably because i never said that anyone did. im saying people are completing the different tiers and getting the rewards. im not saying everyone has maxed out everything. the rewards come in stages and even the smallest fleet can do tiers 1, and its not going to take people this decades to finish unless they put next to no work in or have next to no members. the projects are doable quite easily if even a handful of people put the work in.
not everyone will. some people will have dead fleets or just dont have the time to put the work in. thats fine but thats also not my problem. thats their choice to be in a small fleet, with people who cant contribute well enough. you cant account an entire system that has an upper limit of 500 with a fleet of 4 people who cant or wont work for it.
yes the rewards need to be taken into account. people are doing these holdings and projects with zero discount incentive and those rewards are there and are incentives that go beyond the discount. these must be taken into account when calculating costs. i dont care was said before about the dilithium mine or what you thought it was going to be. i only care about what is physically in the game world. it has discounts and it has rewards. both are valuable.
once again, of course it does good. you seem to believe that everyone is hitting their caps. i myself opened a lot of boxes and got a lot of claims. i rarely farm dilithium so i earned myself 500'000 dilithium over the past 6 months i would not have earned otherwise. pretty much all of it went into my starbases. even when i do hit my cap, i dont hit it 2 days in a row so the spill over makes up for days when i slack.
Ah, yes I read too quickly, I see they are listed under "unlocks" rather than "construction projects"
Discounts need to be at least 10% per rank to be of meaningful benefit.
Centurion maximus92
12th Legion, Romulan Republic
12th Fleet
=\/= ================================ =\/=
I'm *SO* very disappointed by that.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Here's the math if you want to check it. This assumes that the only projects you run to upgrade the tracks are Open Dilithium Trading and Develop Contacts in Nearby Star Systems, which are the most efficient in terms of dilithium per XP point. This doesn't include provisions or other misc upgrades like the Call Trade Freighter cooldown. This also doesn't take into account the dilithium discount from upgrading the mine itself.
Tier 1: 8 x 12500 dil = 100000 dil
Tier 2: 14 x 21000 dil = 294000 dil
Tier 3: 28 x 30000 dil = 840000 dil
Upgrade 1: 78000 dil
Upgrade 2: 350000 dil
Upgrade 3: 750000 dil
Total for one track: 2412000 dil
Total for both tracks: 4824000 dil
After maxing both tracks, it is possible to upgrade the mine itself to tier 3 without spending any more dilithium, though it will cost a substantial amount of fleet credits, DOffs, and other resources.
Tier 1: 8 x 420 FM = 3360 FM
Tier 2: 14 x 630 FM = 8820 FM
Tier 3: 28 x 840 FM = 23520 FM
Track Upgrade 1: 1890 FM
Track Upgrade 2: 5250 FM
Track Upgrade 3: 10500 FM
Total for one track: 53340 FM
Total for both tracks: 106680 FM
Mine Upgrade 1: 5500 FM
Mine Upgrade 2: 17000 FM
Mine Upgrade 3: 35000 FM
Mine Upgrade total: 57500 FM
Grand Total: 164180 FM
I'm shocked there are people that actually think the cap is a real thing.
Literally anyone that can find the C-Store in game has an available solution to infinite refining cap, if that's your only interest. Just make more characters.
Any claims that the cap is inhibitive is being fueled by roleplayers, not by people serious about Dil farming. And since the exchange allows you to move Dil between characters freely just by setting and cancelling purchases at low prices, spare me any "can't move my Dil where I need it" too.
If you've bought 4 character slots, and you actually understand anything about DOFFing at all, you should be making a minimum of 16K dil every day off nothing but DOFFing. Never mind actually doing anything. 16K is really very low as a DOFFing goal, but still.
If you're farming enough Dil for starbase projects you have more than enough to buy infinite cap. People who cap 8K a day then just keep going with one character who think they're being serious about gathering Dil ending up with a goofy 40K backlog in a month are just flat out slow in the head.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom