I was just in a cap & splode in my engi cruiser. I tied for 1st in kills, I got 3rd in overall damage. 2nd in overall healing. & thats on both teams, 16 ships all together. i outscored every fed escort in the match, & 2 Klingon ones. It's not so much what you have, it's how you use it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
I was just in a cap & splode in my engi cruiser. I tied for 1st in kills, I got 3rd in overall damage. 2nd in overall healing. & thats on both teams, 16 ships all together. i outscored every fed escort in the match, & 2 Klingon ones. It's not so much what you have, it's how you use it.
"But I should be able to build it and fly it as stupidly as I want, and still expect to succeed! Whaaaaaaaaaaa!!1111oneoneoneeleventy"
I was just in a cap & splode in my engi cruiser. I tied for 1st in kills, I got 3rd in overall damage. 2nd in overall healing. & thats on both teams, 16 ships all together. i outscored every fed escort in the match, & 2 Klingon ones. It's not so much what you have, it's how you use it.
Unfortunately, this really doesn't mean anything. It assumes that the other 15 players had an inkling of a clue as to what they were doing... and that's a pretty big assumption.
Not to forget also, you said C&H. Some folks might have gone with this first, but what I went with first would apply to Arena as well. But it's C&H. If folks are sitting off by themselves trying to capture a node... well, you know.
"But I should be able to build it and fly it as stupidly as I want, and still expect to succeed! Whaaaaaaaaaaa!!1111oneoneoneeleventy"
:rolleyes:
Sadly, this seems to be the case with a large percentage of MMO players. Especially this one. However, There is a reason for that here. The stupidly easy AI. It allows people to hit max level without ever having to improve. Then when the new Admiral/General hops into a PVP match or STF & is instantly obliterated, He assumes something must be wrong with the game, either the enemy is OP, or my class/Ship is not as good as others, I need a buff. The problem is that they never had to try to get better until max level.
Cruisers are the funnest ship to play in this game, when you understand the games mechanics, & how to use the ship efficiently. just by switching a few Boffs & Doffs i can go from DPS to Tank/Healer or CC ship. (EWP is insanely good at CC, if you know how & when to use it. When coupled with a cloak it gives you an alpha that can trap most of a fedball in sticky goodness within 5 seconds. If an opponent hits his hazards to clear it, throw on a Tractor beam, because he just put his polarize hull on CD. The plasma will reapply, & your targets doubly stuck now, & begging for a respawn.)
There are fantastic discussions about tactics and shipbuilds, on Doff selection & how to correctly spec your toon for various tactics in the PVP subforum. Check them out.
I know a lot of MMO players dislike PVPers, & i understand why. But this game is not like other MMO's. The PVP community in this game is knowledgeable, inclusive, and more than willing to help out new people, without all the L2P n00b UG0TPWND LOLUSUCK BS you get in a lot of games. In fact it's extremely rare for something like that to happen here. The OPVP and Panda cubs chat channels are full of people who've been here since beta who want to help people improve, because it makes all of our STO gaming experiences better. We even get Devs asking us questions & our opinions in OPVP on occasion.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
Unfortunately, this really doesn't mean anything. It assumes that the other 15 players had an inkling of a clue as to what they were doing... and that's a pretty big assumption.
Not to forget also, you said C&H. Some folks might have gone with this first, but what I went with first would apply to Arena as well. But it's C&H. If folks are sitting off by themselves trying to capture a node... well, you know.
Niether does the dismissal of amIdoingitright experience in the that CnH. It proves at least that the Cruiser is capable in skilled hands and puts doubt to the idea that the Cruiser is a joke.
Possibly the joke is in the user and the Cruiser is fine, all things considered.
If only the Arena experience is to be considered then the Thread Title nees to express that.
Though I find its no more a factor than a CnH and the usefulness of a Crusier soley rests on the one using it.
Unfortunately, this really doesn't mean anything. It assumes that the other 15 players had an inkling of a clue as to what they were doing... and that's a pretty big assumption.
Not to forget also, you said C&H. Some folks might have gone with this first, but what I went with first would apply to Arena as well. But it's C&H. If folks are sitting off by themselves trying to capture a node... well, you know.
True, it was the first match i was in after reading this thread. I spent the entire fight in a huge furball in front of the klingon gate, with both teams fighting over that one node the whole battle. I never had to leave it. But i get similar results almost ever match i'm in. True, i'm an experienced PVPer, who doesn't waste boff slots on useless powers. Most people are not. I saw an awful lot of Boarding parties flying around, the giant glowing neon "kill me i'm new"sign of STO PVP. But this is in fact my point. That cruisers can do well, if you don't assume that your build is as good as possible, & do a little research on how it could be better.
That in fact, just maybe your not doinitright. Everyones build is not going to have the same effectiveness. My build is a lame healer. I know that. But i kill stuff. which is the main goal of our end game content in STO. If i can do it, so can you. I'm not Superman.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
Niether does the dismissal of amIdoingitright experience in the that CnH. It proves at least that the Cruiser is capable in skilled hands and puts doubt to the idea that the Cruiser is a joke.
Possibly the joke is in the user and the Cruiser is fine, all things considered.
If only the Arena experience is to be considered then the Thread Title nees to express that.
Though I find its no more a factor than a CnH and the usefulness of a Crusier soley rests on the one using it.
What were the other 15 players flying? Were their toons built to fly those ships? What did they do with their DOFFs? Did they even know they could assign DOFFs? What kind of gear were they sporting on their ships? Were they debuffing? The list goes on and on...as far as why it really doesn't say anything.
Who said anything about Arena experience being the only thing that counts? You act as if you do not know the difference between Arena and C&H... which is odd. If you have three folks sitting at nodes by themselves trying to cap them... What kind of damage are they doing to the enemy that is not there? What kind of damage are they having to heal that they're not taking from the enemy that's not there? C'mon... lol, seriously.
If you want to say that X ship is WAI 'n fine - then break out the 8v8 where everybody's got the same experience, they're all built for their ships and their teams, and they're all geared on an equal level... tada... then something can be said.
As is, there are simply far too many variables for it to say anything.
True, it was the first match i was in after reading this thread. I spent the entire fight in a huge furball in front of the klingon gate, with both teams fighting over that one node the whole battle. I never had to leave it. But i get similar results almost ever match i'm in. True, i'm an experienced PVPer, who doesn't waste boff slots on useless powers. Most people are not. I saw an awful lot of Boarding parties flying around, the giant glowing neon "kill me i'm new"sign of STO PVP. But this is in fact my point. That cruisers can do well, if you don't assume that your build is as good as possible, & do a little research on how it could be better.
That in fact, just maybe your not doinitright. Everyones build is not going to have the same effectiveness. My build is a lame healer. I know that. But i kill stuff. which is the main goal of our end game content in STO. If i can do it, so can you. I'm not Superman.
The gist of what I was saying is that for most folks... it's not really so much a case as Player A knowing what they're doing as much as it is a case of Player B knowing what they're doing less.
Heck, it can be Player A against Players B through E where they're drooling on the keyboard.
It's not a case of taking away from what you can do in the least, it's not a personal attack... though it is definitely an attack on many of the folks you'll find in a PUG where you secretly wish for friendly fire so you can say, "Sorry, fat fingered that," as they explode...heh.
edit: It doesn't help that for the most part, they simply do not care if they win or lose. 3 fights, dil, and done.
What were the other 15 players flying? Were their toons built to fly those ships? What did they do with their DOFFs? Did they even know they could assign DOFFs? What kind of gear were they sporting on their ships? Were they debuffing? The list goes on and on...as far as why it really doesn't say anything.
Who said anything about Arena experience being the only thing that counts? You act as if you do not know the difference between Arena and C&H... which is odd. If you have three folks sitting at nodes by themselves trying to cap them... What kind of damage are they doing to the enemy that is not there? What kind of damage are they having to heal that they're not taking from the enemy that's not there? C'mon... lol, seriously.
If you want to say that X ship is WAI 'n fine - then break out the 8v8 where everybody's got the same experience, they're all built for their ships and their teams, and they're all geared on an equal level... tada... then something can be said.
As is, there are simply far too many variables for it to say anything.
But you're making Mine & Roach's(bitemepwe i mean, stupid new forum.) point. I fly in premade's. I don't usually use my cruiser for DPS in those matches, only when i'm pugging. the reason for that is, that escorts are more effective at killing than a cruiser. especially at killing an enemy in a heal heavy premade vs premade fight, where everyone is very good, & on voice coms. Where a heal is going to be on you before your shields drop 10%
I don't do premade fights all that often anymore. I do a lot of PUGging. where i never have any idea of the skill level of my opponents or teammates. & I can say that when i pug in my DPS cruiser i'm in the top 50% of DPS dealers almost every match. When i fly in my fleets premade i'm usually in my tac/scort or my tac/Kar-Fi, Or my Sci/Weaver. Because we already have 2 insanely good healers flying with us, as well as an excellent Sci guy. I take my cruiser into Kerrat & can tear up the average fed cruiser pilot in it there fairly fast, then kill his buddy while tanking the borg. The cruiser is a viable damage dealing ship. It's not the best one.It's not supposed to be. but it can do a whole lot more than most people give it credit for, if you take the time to try new things, experiment, get advice, & improve yourself.
Yes there ARE to many variables. They are not all equal. You owe it to yourself to find the role you want to play, & build your toon, doffs, & ships to be the best you can in that role. you don't have to even try to beat the AI in 90% of this games content. Anybuild can & will work. If you plan to be joining the team based missions, you have to be willing to do a little work to improve yourself. Not go asking the Devs for a buff because you don't want to work to improve yourself. The point I'm tyring to make is that the DPS cruiser is a totally viable build for everything in STO except for high end premade vs premade PVP.
edit,
when i say "you, i don't mean you Virusdancer, i mean the new Admiral/general cruiser pilot)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
The point I'm tyring to make is that the DPS cruiser is a totally viable build for everything in STO except for high end premade vs premade PVP.
That I can definitely agree with. If a person builds for it and knows what they're doing, if a DPS cruiser is their thing - they can have a lot of fun with it against the run of the mill groups out there.
My thing is that it goes beyond just DPS though - sure, the same thing can apply if you're tanking (I still think it's funny how many different games that tanking works - "Oh that guy's hard to kill, let's try to kill him while ignoring the folks healing him or the folks killing us!" - it's definitely funny sometimes just to sit back and watch that) - or healing; my thing with cruisers, escorts, and sci is at the very core of STO. I think it's broken there. It's what it is though - and to an extent, regardless of what you fly...healing escort if you want, if you build for it and know what you're doing...you're still going to have a heads up on the majority of the folks and might find success with it.
Like I said, I believe they just have ships all jacked up because they tried to make disparate things somewhat equivalent. They went with TNG, DS9, and Voyager... the Galaxy-class Enterprise, Defiant, and Voyager are all on equal footing...yay, captains can fly the iconic ships. Built up and down from there. Equal footing? Nah... but that's the way they went, so things are all borked.
Maybe it's too much Star Trek canon, too much EVE, too much other shows, movies, and games... but it's hard not to say they did it wrong here.
I agree with you there VirusDancer. STO kinda took a turn with PWE that i'm not crazy about. The C-store ships & lockbox ships have thrown any kind of balance out. & the 3 classes have become so intertwined in STO that almost every ship can do something else well. But I'm still having fun. I fly my fed tac in a Gal-X, just because people say it can't be done well. (It can). I have flown a Tac in a Kar-Fi since the day the Kar-Fi came out. People used to say that was a stupid combination. They don't anymore. There are so many things that can be done with every ship in this game to max out it's effectiveness at different roles that it's never going to be boring to me. When i get bored, i hop into a new ship, & I MAKE it work. For something. Not always what i thought i would use it for when I hopped into it, but I can always find something it can do well. If i can, then others can. And do. I see the evidence in Arenas, Cap & Splodes, & the Rat every day. I've seen a Vulcan ship with a sci captain top the DPS charts in a match with good players in it. Repeatedly. ( I'm looking at you Yak). Have fun. Don't get discouraged. & when you're out of ideas, ask for help. It's out there.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
It's kind of funny, how it does come down to fun. I think that comes down to expectations on certain things. I changed my expectations back with the console changes. I started the ragequit process - deleted my toons and uninstalled. I thought about it. Kicked myself for deleting them and then kicked myself for getting upset enough with myself to kick myself for having deleted them. I take the game far less seriously than I did. I just tool around now for the most part.
Course, outside of a torp Negh w/Tac that I ran over the weekend - I haven't run a cruiser since March...and I haven't run an Eng since March either. Tac carriers, Sci BoPs, etc, etc, etc. Every now and again, I'll even break out a Skittles BoP - one of each turret - taste the rainbow. I do kind of miss doing powerslides in an Ody though...
I haven't tried the Oddy yet. I'm pretty much a dedicated Klingon these days. But i did love powerslides in my Neggy. Especially while ejecting some Warp Plasma love on my opponents.
I took a 6 month break from the game myself when i realized it had gone P2W. But really, the P2W consoles are garbage. pretty much all of them. You get more DPS, & tanking without them. I haven't tried the new lobi ones, the stats kinda seem OP to me. But I do just fine without them. & will continue to do just fine without any P2W crutches.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
What were the other 15 players flying? Were their toons built to fly those ships? What did they do with their DOFFs? Did they even know they could assign DOFFs? What kind of gear were they sporting on their ships? Were they debuffing? The list goes on and on...as far as why it really doesn't say anything.
Who said anything about Arena experience being the only thing that counts? You act as if you do not know the difference between Arena and C&H... which is odd. If you have three folks sitting at nodes by themselves trying to cap them... What kind of damage are they doing to the enemy that is not there? What kind of damage are they having to heal that they're not taking from the enemy that's not there? C'mon... lol, seriously.
If you want to say that X ship is WAI 'n fine - then break out the 8v8 where everybody's got the same experience, they're all built for their ships and their teams, and they're all geared on an equal level... tada... then something can be said.
As is, there are simply far too many variables for it to say anything.
Granted, though my post was that the experiences of AmIdoingitright should not also be so easily dismissed just becuase he had a good fight in the ques against an unknown group of opponents becuase it still shows that a DPS cruiser is viable under a skilled player and that the poor showing of a ill piloted Cruiser is often the error involved instead of the base vessel itself.
His opponents not knowing what they are doing, not knowing abour DOffs or any aspect of teh game is the defintion of "ill piloted".
So while we can not say for sure that the aformentioned fight is a basis to state the Cruiser is fine, we can use it as an example of what a DPS crusier can do in the hands of an experienced player and is viable as a design.
Skill tree 2
I switch the ensign sci between TB & PH, depending onthe amount of TB's being used against me. For STF's i run BO1 & 2 for my tac slots. This ship is designed to stick my opponent in plasma, overfly him, use BO to drop a shield right before my rear mounted Bio neural warhead hits. I also sometimes use a Tric torp or mine in this weapons slot with the same tactic. The Bio neural kinda sux because of the 2 KM minimum firing distance. but it hits like an overloaded tric. if my EWP is on cooldown i can use my theta to do the same thing, although not quite as well.It's my plan B. Usually the enemys to busy trying to get unstuck to bother shooting the torp down.
This is one example of a cruiser/toon built around a tactic.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
As of you who read what I post know, I am a huge fan of balance and the restoration of the Cruiser from backseat healer to the heart of the fleet. Now we all know that in current STO, escorts rule the roost, cruisers are stuck in healer spots, and science ships are just looked at with the "wtf are they doing here" attitude (first part to get argued no doubt in responses to this thread).
("This hurts you.")
The problem is not with cruisers, but with YOU. Well, not with you specifically, but with people wanting it all: you want the DPS of an escort, the tankability of a sci vessel, and the healing capabilities of an engineer. That's because people are egomaniacs these days, lol. No, seriously. If people were willing to truly truly team up, and delegate and coordinate roles in missions, then it would all work out wonderfully: you would be tanking and healing in your cruiser, the sci peeps would fire off gravity wells, disrupt subsystems, and the escort folks would swifty finish off the crippled ships. But no, people all, individually, want to be the hero that comes in, guns blazing, saving the day. That's where things go awry -- not with cruisers doing less DPS than an escort.
So now getting to the point of this thread. I find myself disappointed that threads keep on appearing asking politely (and sometimes even BEGGING) that cruisers be restored to their positions of grace and honor that they hold so graciously in canon, and having these threads seemingly summarily dismissed by the developers. I mean COME ON!!! They gave the aquarius and escort (everything and it's mother refit) a turn rate boost, something NEITHER SHIP NEEDS BUT CRUISERS HAVE BEEN BEGGING FOR. We don't mind flying whales. We don't mind being slow. But to be stuck with an absurdly LOW damage output with an equally disgusting LOW turn rate?
Huh? You must be doing it wrong then. For my cruiser, I fly a Galor, and one of the things I like about it is its awesome turn-rate! and with 4 weps fore, and 4 weps aft, I'm not exactly sure what you're complaining about. It tanks like crazy too. It's life on easy-street. And in No Win I can heal to no end, and am frequently the last one standing. So, again, what's your beef?
Why? Why did you only give us a shield with no sword?
Because you are not supposed to get *everything* in one ship; that's as tl;dr as I can get.
They don't seem to listen even when we ask nicely.
You *did* ask nicely; but a whine, however eloquently, is still a whine. And don't post in green, please. It's saying: "Here comes a VIP, please make way for an important message!" You're just a regular slob, like the rest of us.
("Assuming direct control")
If the devs are indeed reading the forum, directing them directly, I ask you: don't give him what he wants! Rather, let him adapt to the notion -- however long it takes him -- that you can't have it all in a single ship. Period.
The problem is not with cruisers, but with YOU. Well, not with you specifically, but with people wanting it all: you want the DPS of an escort, the tankability of a sci vessel, and the healing capabilities of an engineer.
Actually, we DON'T want escort DPS; I for one pull my tac and their escort out and the following effortless shredding of NPCs, in a matter of seconds each, bores the heck out of me! What I want is to do some nice supporting DPS nothing more than say 500 DPH (Damage Per Hit) on each of my six beams at say 5Km unbuffed (the balance for which would be the lack of increase getting closer to my target as I'm already doing close to my max damage). This still puts me behind escorts DHCs when they are placed right. the cruisers balance of engi/science is there already so why shouldn't there be a little more DPS, I'm only asking for a couple of hundred DPH to give me nice rounded ship that is outclassed in damage by the Primary DDs, outclassed in Tanking by the Tankers and outclassed in Science by the Science ships so overall it's the least efficient build but at the same time it's the most versatile (which happens to be my play style AND what I had before season 6)
This would allow cruisers, if they are willing to give up all specialisms, to fill any role asked of them TO A DEGREE (before you jump in there) and still be outclassed by the dedicated builds; therein lies the balance.
1. Cruisers tank and deal stable, medium to high damage
2. Escorts deal very high damage as long as as they are not shot upon
3. Science vessels kill or disable enemy crew as well as healing friedly one and deal medium damage
What do you think?
You've got it backwards. You're suggesting to punish players or force them thru some mechanic to include cruisers and sci vessels. The idea should be to make them fun on their own regardless of what other ships are around.
Sci Vessels are easy to make fun, Cryptic would need to change their binary CC system so that there's a sliding scale of effects?
I think Cruisers could be more fun to fly if they didn't turn sooooo slowly. Some cruisers are just badly designed compared to the game's current meta, but if they could turn better they would at least be more fun to fly... and more importantly they would be in position more often so could better utilize their weapons.
Honestly the only problem i have with cruiser DPS, and I fly a Galaxy R, is that if i don't kill my target on the first pass... I have to turn this whale around to finish it off, then turn the whale around again to get back to where i was going. OMG
that and sitting in a tractor beam for 5 seconds before realizing i'm in a tractor beam because I can't see the blue beam for all the spam going on around me.
"oh, okay i thought i turned a little bit faster than that"
Yes please give the cruiser a turn buff, a generic escort gets like 15, a sciship gets about 12 a cruiser has half of the SCI ships turn rate on the FED side, it should be more like 9.
to heck with your battle cloak KDF i want the turn rate of your cruisers.
It isn't fair? You put a tactical in that same cruiser and what kind of damage are they doing?
Compare, 3500 dps in a sci cruiser vs 4500 dps in a eng escort. Is that fair? Totally.
You are trying to compare 3500 dps sci cruiser vs 6500 tac escort. That isn't even close to an even comparison.
Than give me Tac in a Cruiser numbers. There weren't any mentioned. Nor were there any Engineer numbers in a Cruiser posted.
And it is an even comparison.
We are talking Cruiser DPS output, among other things, vs an Escorts.
So I did Cruiser/Escort numbers.
Its a huge gap that has no reason for existing. Even a buff of 1,000 to the Cruiser doesn't threaten the Escort. The Escort still has better DPS and far far far superior burst.
A Cruiser MUST have lower DPS than an escort, it shouldn't be the same.
I'm sorry but this just has to be said.
No Duh Sherlock. We AGREE with that statement. Cruisers in this game will never replace the Escort as the Primary damage dealer. We may believe that the shows show that the Cruiser is indeed superior, but we recognize that in this game that will never be the case.
They tank and are multi-role, that is going to cost you sometimes. An escort has damage and some can take damage (they don't tank,) as well, they have no secondary roles.
Then let us multi-role!
Right now we cannot do anything with any kind of sure proficiency other than tank.
Which has never been stated as a sole role of the Cruiser so why is it the only thing that the Cruiser can be proficient at?
Why can the Escort tank with some level of proficiency above what the Cruisers damage output proficiency is?
If we take the assumption that my ship being captained by a tac adds 2000dps (compared to eng escort), then that cruiser will notch up 5500 dps... thats impressive. Even if it was 5000 that'd be more than enough for a cruiser who can tank, and throw heals, even some zone control.
You cannot pretend that we get to order our cake and eat it too when you just said that we are "tank and are multi-role, that is going to cost you sometimes."
If we spec for being the best DD that we can be. We do not carry the support package that would allow us to "tank and throw heals, even some zone control."
If we spec for support and healing. We have no meaningful damage contribution, even per your own numbers, when compared.
And by WE I mean those of us, regardless of Captain spec, who pilot Cruisers.
There is nothing wrong with cruisers, as skyranger1414 mentioned there are very real problems with the captains flying them. If you want to sit out at 9-10k instead of 3k that is fine, but realize you are going to drop that cannon build cruiser from 3500 dps to 1500 dps, even a beam boat (which I don't seem to have any capable logs of ) is going to lose 33% of its damage.
Stop complaining on the forums and learn how to fly your ship. I pvped with those cruisers last night, 3500dps of a shield draining cruiser is pretty rough. These guys are still learning and they actually had my shields down.
So 3,500 are your Cruiser DPS numbers... a 3,000 DPS gap.
3,500 DPS is enough to, in your words; "actually had your shields down."
(And that is a Cruiser that only exists KDF side or in the form of the Galaxy X Fed side.)
But not kill or really threaten you.
At least not till they get a better P2W ship with access to a better BOff layout that allows for access to better Tac skills.
But by then you to will have obtained a better P2W ship as well so the cycle continues.
The problem is not with cruisers, but with YOU. Well, not with you specifically, but with people wanting it all: you want the DPS of an escort, the tankability of a sci vessel, and the healing capabilities of an engineer. That's because people are egomaniacs these days, lol. No, seriously. If people were willing to truly truly team up, and delegate and coordinate roles in missions, then it would all work out wonderfully: you would be tanking and healing in your cruiser, the sci peeps would fire off gravity wells, disrupt subsystems, and the escort folks would swifty finish off the crippled ships. But no, people all, individually, want to be the hero that comes in, guns blazing, saving the day. That's where things go awry -- not with cruisers doing less DPS than an escort.
Huh? You must be doing it wrong then. For my cruiser, I fly a Galor, and one of the things I like about it is its awesome turn-rate! and with 4 weps fore, and 4 weps aft, I'm not exactly sure what you're complaining about. It tanks like crazy too. It's life on easy-street. And in No Win I can heal to no end, and am frequently the last one standing. So, again, what's your beef?
Because you are not supposed to get *everything* in one ship; that's as tl;dr as I can get.
You *did* ask nicely; but a whine, however eloquently, is still a whine. And don't post in green, please. It's saying: "Here comes a VIP, please make way for an important message!" You're just a regular slob, like the rest of us.
("Assuming direct control")
If the devs are indeed reading the forum, directing them directly, I ask you: don't give him what he wants! Rather, let him adapt to the notion -- however long it takes him -- that you can't have it all in a single ship. Period.
- Kira Shephard
Oh man you have so many holes in your argument, I am not sure why you bothered to post to begin with.
First off, your biggest mistake was assuming that I want to be the hero. If I did that I would have gone with a tac in a defiant. I researched this game before joining and decided that I wanted to be a tank. So I went with engi cruiser.
Secondly, you fly a galor you moron. That's a lockbox ship. Don't even get me started on how much stronger they are than normal ships. Of course you can tank everything, it's mother, cousin twice removed, AND deal damage, because it is agreed by almost everyone that the galor is one of the best ships in the game (not cruiser, not sci, not escort, but all ships). And not all of us can afford the money to open lockboxes all day, or farm ECs until they're blue in the face and then get it off the exchange. So I'll ask you, what's YOUR beef?
And to your next post, guess what kiddo, I ain't askin for a ship that can do EVERYTHING. Why would I want the dps of an escort? That's their job. Not mine. I don't want the mind-#$%^ing ability of a sci ship either, because again, not my job. I do want the ability to land pressure on targets and still be able to heal, but not without having to sacrifice too much of either (therein is probably my main problem).
And to the last part, no, this is not a whine. If it was a whine there would be far more demanding in it. As is, I was just stating something that I had found out through much watching of threads here in the forum. And yes, I will admit the green is a mistake, albeit calling me and everyone else here a slob was just unnecessarily rude.
And now I ask you this. Did you even bother to read any of the other posts here? Or did you just choose to attack the starting post? Believe it or not, if you actually bother to read any of the postings after, you will see me admitting mistakes from the first one, and then changing my request to things far more reasonable. So I think you should probably just leave this thread alone, since because it doesn't match what you like, and you think it's a l2p issue, and you apparently have nothing to offer, you aren't wanted or needed. So please, enjoy your lockbox ship, and tote it's awesomeness around, I really don't mind. Just don't do it in a thread where we're actually trying to figure out constructive ways of improving some of the ships.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Actually you know what, you may be right, maybe this is a learn to play issue. Maybe all that time I spent talking to people asking them for advice and then trying things out really doesn't matter. Maybe I should bow to your wishes and then just immerse myself into your ideas, and ignore anything I may or may not have wanted in this.
And you really should know, I don't want it all. I really don't. If I did, I would play a game where you can get it all. But since I am currently playing STO, maybe, just maybe, I have adapted to that notion. Did that ever occur to you? Oh no, you were too busy sitting on your soap box saying "Oh, he's so stupid, oh, he's using green, oh, he has no idea wtf he's talking about." Maybe you should do a quick second take and look at your own arguments. You have offered NOTHING to this thread. And I made it so people could continue to offer ideas on what we can possibly change.
But guess what, idiots like you exist, so naturally constructive threads are impossible, and besides, wtf do you care, the devs won't change anything, most of us are wasting our time posting, so your little world is safe. So go live in it and let the ones with a slightly bigger picture view discuss ideas that are probably above your little minds comprehension, and if nothing else, just let is vent our frustration here on the forums, that way it stays out of the game.
So I guess I am somewhat less than politely saying to #$%^ off.
Rant over.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I got 1.6 billion EC. 50 million EC says Borticus hasn't even read this thread.
Besides that Federation Cruisers right now suck so do Federation science vessels. Reminds of the time when in WoW paladins wanted to do damage but people and the developers said no. In time they both lost the arguments and paladin's were able to do ALL roles well.
This same instance needs to happen in the game cause right now people opposed to cruisers being better don't want to lose their heal ***** so they argue and twist the idea and philosophy around to get their point across. Something like how a politician does.
In fact in this thread right now Cruisers are going to be better in the future because of this thread and because of resisting the " STATUS QUO " of what players think only the cruiser should be which is nothing but a heal *****. PvP population is about only 0.001% of the entire game population.
I hate the " STATUS QUO " and I like breaking it. People that want change please keep pressing this issue and never stop because it WILL happen. This thread needs to be constantly on the top of the forums till something gets done.
In fact in this thread right now Cruisers are going to be better in the future because of this thread and because of resisting the " STATUS QUO " of what players think only the cruiser should be which is nothing but a heal *****. PvP population is about only 0.001% of the entire game population.
I hate the " STATUS QUO " and I like breaking it. People that want change please keep pressing this issue and never stop because it WILL happen. This thread needs to be constantly on the top of the forums till something gets done.
This thread is going to be the one that does it huh? What makes this one better than the dozens of threads that where exactly the same? Devs have stated that the cruisers are fine. The amount of people that agree that cruisers suck in this thread is far smaller than .0001 % of STO. Anyway, good luck with your crusade.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
I researched this game before joining and decided that I wanted to be a tank. So I went with engi cruiser.
And than, later on, you lamented you had things lacking in other areas:
"I do want the ability to land pressure on targets and still be able to heal, but not without having to sacrifice too much of either (therein is probably my main problem)."
Yes, that IS your main problem: you protest vehemently to people pointing it out to you, but you really DO want it all.
I want my paperthin fleet defiant to tank like my Recluse too. Ain't gonna happen, though, as 'sacrifice too much' in one area is precisely why certain ships have a significant boon in another. Would be kinda meaningless if you really didn't feel the pinch anywhere, would it?
Secondly, you fly a galor you moron. That's a lockbox ship. Don't even get me started on how much stronger they are than normal ships. Of course you can tank everything, it's mother, cousin twice removed, AND deal damage, because it is agreed by almost everyone that the galor is one of the best ships in the game (not cruiser, not sci, not escort, but all ships).
So, why aren't you flying one then? LOL. *Now* who's the moron?! I LOL-ed.
And not all of us can afford the money to open lockboxes all day, or farm ECs until they're blue in the face and then get it off the exchange.
In other words: "I have no issue with cruisers per se, but only with the ones I can afford." That's rather petty.
In conclusion: we both agreed on there being total kick-*ss cruisers in-game, but that you can't afford them. Really, that's sad.
And than, later on, you lamented you had things lacking in other areas:
"I do want the ability to land pressure on targets and still be able to heal, but not without having to sacrifice too much of either (therein is probably my main problem)."
Yes, that IS your main problem: you protest vehemently to people pointing it out to you, but you really DO want it all.
I want my paperthin fleet defiant to tank like my Recluse too. Ain't gonna happen, though, as 'sacrifice too much' in one area is precicely why certain ships have a significant boon in another. Would be kinda meaningless if you really didn't feel the pinch anywhere, would it?
So, why aren't you flying one then? LOL. *Now* who's the moron?! I LOL-ed.
In other words: "I have no issue with cruisers per se, but only with the ones I can afford." That's rather petty.
In conclusion: we both agreed on there being total kick-*TRIBBLE cruisers in-game, but that you can't afford them. Really, that's sad.
Quote him saying he wants to tank like a fully spec'd/geared beast and do damage as if was spec'd and geared to do just damage.
Heck, quote him saying that he wants Cruisers in game to do more damage than the Escorts and take the role of the primary DD.
Quote anyone that has asked for Cruisers to honestly be the main DD in this game.
Go kill a Bug captained by someone of equal skill with your Galor multiple times so that there can be no mistake that you are the bestest playa eva!
Then I will begin to take your comments and opinions as something other than a troll.
Quote him saying he wants to tank like a fully spec'd/geared beast and do damage as if was spec'd and geared to do just damage.
That's precisely the problem with this threat to begin with: of course, nobody is literally gonna say: "I want it ALL." They just word around it, saying stuff like they don't want to sacrifie too much in one area -- which is pretty much the same for anyone being able to see thru the BS.
Heck, quote him saying that he wants Cruisers in game to do more damage than the Escorts and take the role of the primary DD.
More damage even? LOL. Exaggerate much? Again, same as above, btw: OP will never say he wants equal DPS as an escort -- he just doesn't really want to feel the loss of DPS. Same lameness.
Quote anyone that has asked for Cruisers to honestly be the main DD in this game.
Erm, OP *did* say he want cruisers to be the best:
So in response to this injustice, MANY good and logical ideas have been proposed to give cruisers back their position of honor as the flagships and hearts of Starfleet, and unfortunately ALL of them have been ignored.
(Yes, before you object, 'flagship' means the best)
Really, this obfuscation-game is getting tiresome.
And now I ask you this. Did you even bother to read any of the other posts here? Or did you just choose to attack the starting post? Believe it or not, if you actually bother to read any of the postings after, you will see me admitting mistakes from the first one, and then changing my request to things far more reasonable. So I think you should probably just leave this thread alone, since because it doesn't match what you like, and you think it's a l2p issue, and you apparently have nothing to offer, you aren't wanted or needed. So please, enjoy your lockbox ship, and tote it's awesomeness around, I really don't mind. Just don't do it in a thread where we're actually trying to figure out constructive ways of improving some of the ships.
And than, later on, you lamented you had things lacking in other areas:
"I do want the ability to land pressure on targets and still be able to heal, but not without having to sacrifice too much of either (therein is probably my main problem)."
Yes, that IS your main problem: you protest vehemently to people pointing it out to you, but you really DO want it all (I do not protest vehemently. I am merely pointing out something I believe can be altered for the better of some players here. You keep on using that word. Perhaps it doesn't mean what you think it means.).
I want my paperthin fleet defiant to tank like my Recluse too. Ain't gonna happen, though, as 'sacrifice too much' in one area is precisely why certain ships have a significant boon in another. Would be kinda meaningless if you really didn't feel the pinch anywhere, would it? (what's meaningless is the fact you have nothing to contribute to this thread, which is being shown over and over again.)
So, why aren't you flying one then? LOL. *Now* who's the moron?! I LOL-ed. (as did I after I read this because you obviously have the money and time to burn on this game, unlike many of us who have lives.)
In other words: "I have no issue with cruisers per se, but only with the ones I can afford." That's rather petty (as is your attempt to elicit an angered response from me because I do other things with my money then spend it on lockbox keys).
In conclusion: we both agreed on there being total kick-*ss cruisers in-game, but that you can't afford them. Really, that's sad (no, actually what's sad is the fact that you seem to think that only your epically amazing galor is the only cruiser worth anything. Don't get me wrong, galors are awesome, I did have the privilege of flying one on a friends account, but please, try to be realistic. Not all of us have them).
Now that this is in the light, I'll ask politely again, if you have nothing meaningful or helpful to contribute, please do not post in this thread. All you are doing is adding negativity and anger, neither of which has any place in actually being productive.
So once more, just in case you didn't quite get it, please, do not post unless you have something constructive or helpful to say (and no, attacking me is not only pointless, but also is not constructive of helpful in any sense of the word).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Now that this is in the light, I'll ask politely again, if you have nothing meaningful or helpful to contribute, please do not post in this thread.
Like with your start post, you seem to think that asking nicely (or veiled nicely, rather) entitles you to getting your way. Not so.
(and no, attacking me is not only pointless, but also is not constructive of helpful in any sense of the word).
Like you calling me 'moron' and 'idiot' is constructive, you mean? No worries, btw, doesn't bother me in the least. Just, the irony, is all.
As for my contribution to this thread, think Newton's Third Law of Motion: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Aka: for every force pushing to give their own ships moar, there should be forces pushing back. I am that force pushing back.
Having said that, this is (naturally, almost) a fanboi thread, so 'meaningful or helpful' tend to have rather self-serving definitions in here. Nonetheless, should the devs ever read this, I deem it good they realize not everyone is in favor of just giving cruisers more DPS, without them losing something too.
I've a tank/semi dps skill set configuration. Almost all my ships are cruisers. I'm pretty powerful in STFs and all PvE content when it comes to dealing damage and keeping my team mates up. I also do give fair dps.
Now in PvP, my Soverign stands better than my Regeant, but I suppose if I re-skill my self to certain aspect Regeant lacks - I can fix that too.
It's not all about ships, it's about how you alot your skill points too and using the ship with what your character has.
I'm happy with the cruiser performance really. It can be slightly better, but yea.
Join www.UFPlanets.com
5 FED Fleets | 3 KDF Fleets - T5 Colony on both factions
Comments
"But I should be able to build it and fly it as stupidly as I want, and still expect to succeed! Whaaaaaaaaaaa!!1111oneoneoneeleventy"
:rolleyes:
Unfortunately, this really doesn't mean anything. It assumes that the other 15 players had an inkling of a clue as to what they were doing... and that's a pretty big assumption.
Not to forget also, you said C&H. Some folks might have gone with this first, but what I went with first would apply to Arena as well. But it's C&H. If folks are sitting off by themselves trying to capture a node... well, you know.
Sadly, this seems to be the case with a large percentage of MMO players. Especially this one. However, There is a reason for that here. The stupidly easy AI. It allows people to hit max level without ever having to improve. Then when the new Admiral/General hops into a PVP match or STF & is instantly obliterated, He assumes something must be wrong with the game, either the enemy is OP, or my class/Ship is not as good as others, I need a buff. The problem is that they never had to try to get better until max level.
Cruisers are the funnest ship to play in this game, when you understand the games mechanics, & how to use the ship efficiently. just by switching a few Boffs & Doffs i can go from DPS to Tank/Healer or CC ship. (EWP is insanely good at CC, if you know how & when to use it. When coupled with a cloak it gives you an alpha that can trap most of a fedball in sticky goodness within 5 seconds. If an opponent hits his hazards to clear it, throw on a Tractor beam, because he just put his polarize hull on CD. The plasma will reapply, & your targets doubly stuck now, & begging for a respawn.)
There are fantastic discussions about tactics and shipbuilds, on Doff selection & how to correctly spec your toon for various tactics in the PVP subforum. Check them out.
I know a lot of MMO players dislike PVPers, & i understand why. But this game is not like other MMO's. The PVP community in this game is knowledgeable, inclusive, and more than willing to help out new people, without all the L2P n00b UG0TPWND LOLUSUCK BS you get in a lot of games. In fact it's extremely rare for something like that to happen here. The OPVP and Panda cubs chat channels are full of people who've been here since beta who want to help people improve, because it makes all of our STO gaming experiences better. We even get Devs asking us questions & our opinions in OPVP on occasion.
Niether does the dismissal of amIdoingitright experience in the that CnH. It proves at least that the Cruiser is capable in skilled hands and puts doubt to the idea that the Cruiser is a joke.
Possibly the joke is in the user and the Cruiser is fine, all things considered.
If only the Arena experience is to be considered then the Thread Title nees to express that.
Though I find its no more a factor than a CnH and the usefulness of a Crusier soley rests on the one using it.
R.I.P
True, it was the first match i was in after reading this thread. I spent the entire fight in a huge furball in front of the klingon gate, with both teams fighting over that one node the whole battle. I never had to leave it. But i get similar results almost ever match i'm in. True, i'm an experienced PVPer, who doesn't waste boff slots on useless powers. Most people are not. I saw an awful lot of Boarding parties flying around, the giant glowing neon "kill me i'm new"sign of STO PVP. But this is in fact my point. That cruisers can do well, if you don't assume that your build is as good as possible, & do a little research on how it could be better.
That in fact, just maybe your not doinitright. Everyones build is not going to have the same effectiveness. My build is a lame healer. I know that. But i kill stuff. which is the main goal of our end game content in STO. If i can do it, so can you. I'm not Superman.
What were the other 15 players flying? Were their toons built to fly those ships? What did they do with their DOFFs? Did they even know they could assign DOFFs? What kind of gear were they sporting on their ships? Were they debuffing? The list goes on and on...as far as why it really doesn't say anything.
Who said anything about Arena experience being the only thing that counts? You act as if you do not know the difference between Arena and C&H... which is odd. If you have three folks sitting at nodes by themselves trying to cap them... What kind of damage are they doing to the enemy that is not there? What kind of damage are they having to heal that they're not taking from the enemy that's not there? C'mon... lol, seriously.
If you want to say that X ship is WAI 'n fine - then break out the 8v8 where everybody's got the same experience, they're all built for their ships and their teams, and they're all geared on an equal level... tada... then something can be said.
As is, there are simply far too many variables for it to say anything.
The gist of what I was saying is that for most folks... it's not really so much a case as Player A knowing what they're doing as much as it is a case of Player B knowing what they're doing less.
Heck, it can be Player A against Players B through E where they're drooling on the keyboard.
It's not a case of taking away from what you can do in the least, it's not a personal attack... though it is definitely an attack on many of the folks you'll find in a PUG where you secretly wish for friendly fire so you can say, "Sorry, fat fingered that," as they explode...heh.
edit: It doesn't help that for the most part, they simply do not care if they win or lose. 3 fights, dil, and done.
But you're making Mine & Roach's(bitemepwe i mean, stupid new forum.) point. I fly in premade's. I don't usually use my cruiser for DPS in those matches, only when i'm pugging. the reason for that is, that escorts are more effective at killing than a cruiser. especially at killing an enemy in a heal heavy premade vs premade fight, where everyone is very good, & on voice coms. Where a heal is going to be on you before your shields drop 10%
I don't do premade fights all that often anymore. I do a lot of PUGging. where i never have any idea of the skill level of my opponents or teammates. & I can say that when i pug in my DPS cruiser i'm in the top 50% of DPS dealers almost every match. When i fly in my fleets premade i'm usually in my tac/scort or my tac/Kar-Fi, Or my Sci/Weaver. Because we already have 2 insanely good healers flying with us, as well as an excellent Sci guy. I take my cruiser into Kerrat & can tear up the average fed cruiser pilot in it there fairly fast, then kill his buddy while tanking the borg. The cruiser is a viable damage dealing ship. It's not the best one.It's not supposed to be. but it can do a whole lot more than most people give it credit for, if you take the time to try new things, experiment, get advice, & improve yourself.
Yes there ARE to many variables. They are not all equal. You owe it to yourself to find the role you want to play, & build your toon, doffs, & ships to be the best you can in that role. you don't have to even try to beat the AI in 90% of this games content. Anybuild can & will work. If you plan to be joining the team based missions, you have to be willing to do a little work to improve yourself. Not go asking the Devs for a buff because you don't want to work to improve yourself. The point I'm tyring to make is that the DPS cruiser is a totally viable build for everything in STO except for high end premade vs premade PVP.
edit,
when i say "you, i don't mean you Virusdancer, i mean the new Admiral/general cruiser pilot)
That I can definitely agree with. If a person builds for it and knows what they're doing, if a DPS cruiser is their thing - they can have a lot of fun with it against the run of the mill groups out there.
My thing is that it goes beyond just DPS though - sure, the same thing can apply if you're tanking (I still think it's funny how many different games that tanking works - "Oh that guy's hard to kill, let's try to kill him while ignoring the folks healing him or the folks killing us!" - it's definitely funny sometimes just to sit back and watch that) - or healing; my thing with cruisers, escorts, and sci is at the very core of STO. I think it's broken there. It's what it is though - and to an extent, regardless of what you fly...healing escort if you want, if you build for it and know what you're doing...you're still going to have a heads up on the majority of the folks and might find success with it.
Like I said, I believe they just have ships all jacked up because they tried to make disparate things somewhat equivalent. They went with TNG, DS9, and Voyager... the Galaxy-class Enterprise, Defiant, and Voyager are all on equal footing...yay, captains can fly the iconic ships. Built up and down from there. Equal footing? Nah... but that's the way they went, so things are all borked.
Maybe it's too much Star Trek canon, too much EVE, too much other shows, movies, and games... but it's hard not to say they did it wrong here.
Course, outside of a torp Negh w/Tac that I ran over the weekend - I haven't run a cruiser since March...and I haven't run an Eng since March either. Tac carriers, Sci BoPs, etc, etc, etc. Every now and again, I'll even break out a Skittles BoP - one of each turret - taste the rainbow. I do kind of miss doing powerslides in an Ody though...
I took a 6 month break from the game myself when i realized it had gone P2W. But really, the P2W consoles are garbage. pretty much all of them. You get more DPS, & tanking without them. I haven't tried the new lobi ones, the stats kinda seem OP to me. But I do just fine without them. & will continue to do just fine without any P2W crutches.
Granted, though my post was that the experiences of AmIdoingitright should not also be so easily dismissed just becuase he had a good fight in the ques against an unknown group of opponents becuase it still shows that a DPS cruiser is viable under a skilled player and that the poor showing of a ill piloted Cruiser is often the error involved instead of the base vessel itself.
His opponents not knowing what they are doing, not knowing abour DOffs or any aspect of teh game is the defintion of "ill piloted".
So while we can not say for sure that the aformentioned fight is a basis to state the Cruiser is fine, we can use it as an example of what a DPS crusier can do in the hands of an experienced player and is viable as a design.
R.I.P
Ship & Doffs.
skill tree 1
Skill tree 2
I switch the ensign sci between TB & PH, depending onthe amount of TB's being used against me. For STF's i run BO1 & 2 for my tac slots. This ship is designed to stick my opponent in plasma, overfly him, use BO to drop a shield right before my rear mounted Bio neural warhead hits. I also sometimes use a Tric torp or mine in this weapons slot with the same tactic. The Bio neural kinda sux because of the 2 KM minimum firing distance. but it hits like an overloaded tric. if my EWP is on cooldown i can use my theta to do the same thing, although not quite as well.It's my plan B. Usually the enemys to busy trying to get unstuck to bother shooting the torp down.
This is one example of a cruiser/toon built around a tactic.
("This hurts you.")
The problem is not with cruisers, but with YOU. Well, not with you specifically, but with people wanting it all: you want the DPS of an escort, the tankability of a sci vessel, and the healing capabilities of an engineer. That's because people are egomaniacs these days, lol. No, seriously. If people were willing to truly truly team up, and delegate and coordinate roles in missions, then it would all work out wonderfully: you would be tanking and healing in your cruiser, the sci peeps would fire off gravity wells, disrupt subsystems, and the escort folks would swifty finish off the crippled ships. But no, people all, individually, want to be the hero that comes in, guns blazing, saving the day. That's where things go awry -- not with cruisers doing less DPS than an escort.
Huh? You must be doing it wrong then. For my cruiser, I fly a Galor, and one of the things I like about it is its awesome turn-rate! and with 4 weps fore, and 4 weps aft, I'm not exactly sure what you're complaining about. It tanks like crazy too. It's life on easy-street. And in No Win I can heal to no end, and am frequently the last one standing. So, again, what's your beef?
Because you are not supposed to get *everything* in one ship; that's as tl;dr as I can get.
You *did* ask nicely; but a whine, however eloquently, is still a whine. And don't post in green, please. It's saying: "Here comes a VIP, please make way for an important message!" You're just a regular slob, like the rest of us.
("Assuming direct control")
If the devs are indeed reading the forum, directing them directly, I ask you: don't give him what he wants! Rather, let him adapt to the notion -- however long it takes him -- that you can't have it all in a single ship. Period.
- Kira Shephard
Actually, we DON'T want escort DPS; I for one pull my tac and their escort out and the following effortless shredding of NPCs, in a matter of seconds each, bores the heck out of me! What I want is to do some nice supporting DPS nothing more than say 500 DPH (Damage Per Hit) on each of my six beams at say 5Km unbuffed (the balance for which would be the lack of increase getting closer to my target as I'm already doing close to my max damage). This still puts me behind escorts DHCs when they are placed right. the cruisers balance of engi/science is there already so why shouldn't there be a little more DPS, I'm only asking for a couple of hundred DPH to give me nice rounded ship that is outclassed in damage by the Primary DDs, outclassed in Tanking by the Tankers and outclassed in Science by the Science ships so overall it's the least efficient build but at the same time it's the most versatile (which happens to be my play style AND what I had before season 6)
This would allow cruisers, if they are willing to give up all specialisms, to fill any role asked of them TO A DEGREE (before you jump in there) and still be outclassed by the dedicated builds; therein lies the balance.
You've got it backwards. You're suggesting to punish players or force them thru some mechanic to include cruisers and sci vessels. The idea should be to make them fun on their own regardless of what other ships are around.
Sci Vessels are easy to make fun, Cryptic would need to change their binary CC system so that there's a sliding scale of effects?
I think Cruisers could be more fun to fly if they didn't turn sooooo slowly. Some cruisers are just badly designed compared to the game's current meta, but if they could turn better they would at least be more fun to fly... and more importantly they would be in position more often so could better utilize their weapons.
that and sitting in a tractor beam for 5 seconds before realizing i'm in a tractor beam because I can't see the blue beam for all the spam going on around me.
"oh, okay i thought i turned a little bit faster than that"
Yes please give the cruiser a turn buff, a generic escort gets like 15, a sciship gets about 12 a cruiser has half of the SCI ships turn rate on the FED side, it should be more like 9.
to heck with your battle cloak KDF i want the turn rate of your cruisers.
Than give me Tac in a Cruiser numbers. There weren't any mentioned. Nor were there any Engineer numbers in a Cruiser posted.
And it is an even comparison.
We are talking Cruiser DPS output, among other things, vs an Escorts.
So I did Cruiser/Escort numbers.
Its a huge gap that has no reason for existing. Even a buff of 1,000 to the Cruiser doesn't threaten the Escort. The Escort still has better DPS and far far far superior burst.
I'm sorry but this just has to be said.
No Duh Sherlock. We AGREE with that statement. Cruisers in this game will never replace the Escort as the Primary damage dealer. We may believe that the shows show that the Cruiser is indeed superior, but we recognize that in this game that will never be the case.
Then let us multi-role!
Right now we cannot do anything with any kind of sure proficiency other than tank.
Which has never been stated as a sole role of the Cruiser so why is it the only thing that the Cruiser can be proficient at?
Why can the Escort tank with some level of proficiency above what the Cruisers damage output proficiency is?
You cannot pretend that we get to order our cake and eat it too when you just said that we are "tank and are multi-role, that is going to cost you sometimes."
If we spec for being the best DD that we can be. We do not carry the support package that would allow us to "tank and throw heals, even some zone control."
If we spec for support and healing. We have no meaningful damage contribution, even per your own numbers, when compared.
And by WE I mean those of us, regardless of Captain spec, who pilot Cruisers.
So 3,500 are your Cruiser DPS numbers... a 3,000 DPS gap.
3,500 DPS is enough to, in your words; "actually had your shields down."
(And that is a Cruiser that only exists KDF side or in the form of the Galaxy X Fed side.)
But not kill or really threaten you.
At least not till they get a better P2W ship with access to a better BOff layout that allows for access to better Tac skills.
But by then you to will have obtained a better P2W ship as well so the cycle continues.
Oh man you have so many holes in your argument, I am not sure why you bothered to post to begin with.
First off, your biggest mistake was assuming that I want to be the hero. If I did that I would have gone with a tac in a defiant. I researched this game before joining and decided that I wanted to be a tank. So I went with engi cruiser.
Secondly, you fly a galor you moron. That's a lockbox ship. Don't even get me started on how much stronger they are than normal ships. Of course you can tank everything, it's mother, cousin twice removed, AND deal damage, because it is agreed by almost everyone that the galor is one of the best ships in the game (not cruiser, not sci, not escort, but all ships). And not all of us can afford the money to open lockboxes all day, or farm ECs until they're blue in the face and then get it off the exchange. So I'll ask you, what's YOUR beef?
And to your next post, guess what kiddo, I ain't askin for a ship that can do EVERYTHING. Why would I want the dps of an escort? That's their job. Not mine. I don't want the mind-#$%^ing ability of a sci ship either, because again, not my job. I do want the ability to land pressure on targets and still be able to heal, but not without having to sacrifice too much of either (therein is probably my main problem).
And to the last part, no, this is not a whine. If it was a whine there would be far more demanding in it. As is, I was just stating something that I had found out through much watching of threads here in the forum. And yes, I will admit the green is a mistake, albeit calling me and everyone else here a slob was just unnecessarily rude.
And now I ask you this. Did you even bother to read any of the other posts here? Or did you just choose to attack the starting post? Believe it or not, if you actually bother to read any of the postings after, you will see me admitting mistakes from the first one, and then changing my request to things far more reasonable. So I think you should probably just leave this thread alone, since because it doesn't match what you like, and you think it's a l2p issue, and you apparently have nothing to offer, you aren't wanted or needed. So please, enjoy your lockbox ship, and tote it's awesomeness around, I really don't mind. Just don't do it in a thread where we're actually trying to figure out constructive ways of improving some of the ships.
And you really should know, I don't want it all. I really don't. If I did, I would play a game where you can get it all. But since I am currently playing STO, maybe, just maybe, I have adapted to that notion. Did that ever occur to you? Oh no, you were too busy sitting on your soap box saying "Oh, he's so stupid, oh, he's using green, oh, he has no idea wtf he's talking about." Maybe you should do a quick second take and look at your own arguments. You have offered NOTHING to this thread. And I made it so people could continue to offer ideas on what we can possibly change.
But guess what, idiots like you exist, so naturally constructive threads are impossible, and besides, wtf do you care, the devs won't change anything, most of us are wasting our time posting, so your little world is safe. So go live in it and let the ones with a slightly bigger picture view discuss ideas that are probably above your little minds comprehension, and if nothing else, just let is vent our frustration here on the forums, that way it stays out of the game.
So I guess I am somewhat less than politely saying to #$%^ off.
Rant over.
Besides that Federation Cruisers right now suck so do Federation science vessels. Reminds of the time when in WoW paladins wanted to do damage but people and the developers said no. In time they both lost the arguments and paladin's were able to do ALL roles well.
This same instance needs to happen in the game cause right now people opposed to cruisers being better don't want to lose their heal ***** so they argue and twist the idea and philosophy around to get their point across. Something like how a politician does.
In fact in this thread right now Cruisers are going to be better in the future because of this thread and because of resisting the " STATUS QUO " of what players think only the cruiser should be which is nothing but a heal *****. PvP population is about only 0.001% of the entire game population.
I hate the " STATUS QUO " and I like breaking it. People that want change please keep pressing this issue and never stop because it WILL happen. This thread needs to be constantly on the top of the forums till something gets done.
This thread is going to be the one that does it huh? What makes this one better than the dozens of threads that where exactly the same? Devs have stated that the cruisers are fine. The amount of people that agree that cruisers suck in this thread is far smaller than .0001 % of STO. Anyway, good luck with your crusade.
And than, later on, you lamented you had things lacking in other areas:
"I do want the ability to land pressure on targets and still be able to heal, but not without having to sacrifice too much of either (therein is probably my main problem)."
Yes, that IS your main problem: you protest vehemently to people pointing it out to you, but you really DO want it all.
I want my paperthin fleet defiant to tank like my Recluse too. Ain't gonna happen, though, as 'sacrifice too much' in one area is precisely why certain ships have a significant boon in another. Would be kinda meaningless if you really didn't feel the pinch anywhere, would it?
So, why aren't you flying one then? LOL. *Now* who's the moron?! I LOL-ed.
In other words: "I have no issue with cruisers per se, but only with the ones I can afford." That's rather petty.
In conclusion: we both agreed on there being total kick-*ss cruisers in-game, but that you can't afford them. Really, that's sad.
Quote him saying he wants to tank like a fully spec'd/geared beast and do damage as if was spec'd and geared to do just damage.
Heck, quote him saying that he wants Cruisers in game to do more damage than the Escorts and take the role of the primary DD.
Quote anyone that has asked for Cruisers to honestly be the main DD in this game.
Go kill a Bug captained by someone of equal skill with your Galor multiple times so that there can be no mistake that you are the bestest playa eva!
Then I will begin to take your comments and opinions as something other than a troll.
That's precisely the problem with this threat to begin with: of course, nobody is literally gonna say: "I want it ALL." They just word around it, saying stuff like they don't want to sacrifie too much in one area -- which is pretty much the same for anyone being able to see thru the BS.
More damage even? LOL. Exaggerate much? Again, same as above, btw: OP will never say he wants equal DPS as an escort -- he just doesn't really want to feel the loss of DPS. Same lameness.
Erm, OP *did* say he want cruisers to be the best:
(Yes, before you object, 'flagship' means the best)
Really, this obfuscation-game is getting tiresome.
That being said, here is what you responded.
Now that this is in the light, I'll ask politely again, if you have nothing meaningful or helpful to contribute, please do not post in this thread. All you are doing is adding negativity and anger, neither of which has any place in actually being productive.
So once more, just in case you didn't quite get it, please, do not post unless you have something constructive or helpful to say (and no, attacking me is not only pointless, but also is not constructive of helpful in any sense of the word).
Like with your start post, you seem to think that asking nicely (or veiled nicely, rather) entitles you to getting your way. Not so.
Like you calling me 'moron' and 'idiot' is constructive, you mean? No worries, btw, doesn't bother me in the least. Just, the irony, is all.
As for my contribution to this thread, think Newton's Third Law of Motion: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Aka: for every force pushing to give their own ships moar, there should be forces pushing back. I am that force pushing back.
Having said that, this is (naturally, almost) a fanboi thread, so 'meaningful or helpful' tend to have rather self-serving definitions in here. Nonetheless, should the devs ever read this, I deem it good they realize not everyone is in favor of just giving cruisers more DPS, without them losing something too.
I've a tank/semi dps skill set configuration. Almost all my ships are cruisers. I'm pretty powerful in STFs and all PvE content when it comes to dealing damage and keeping my team mates up. I also do give fair dps.
Now in PvP, my Soverign stands better than my Regeant, but I suppose if I re-skill my self to certain aspect Regeant lacks - I can fix that too.
It's not all about ships, it's about how you alot your skill points too and using the ship with what your character has.
I'm happy with the cruiser performance really. It can be slightly better, but yea.
5 FED Fleets | 3 KDF Fleets - T5 Colony on both factions