That "resistance to change" that you point out is a little deal that has completly ruined MMOs before. Case in point? The CU, NGE, and C6CD in SWG. The fact that it was like it was before, players have gotten used to the mechanics, incorporated them into their playstyle, made builds accordingly, and now are in a game that charges real money for respecs to comply with their CHANGES/NERFs causes even more problems than the NGE. NERFs cause less players, subs, and even C-Store buys, period. The sooner Cryptic development actualy figures this out, the better off the game will become and the more players we'll see.
That player "skill" you refer to as well, is only as good as that so called "20%" of gear allows you to be. In the case of "tanking", player skill doesn't have all that much to do with it. Tanking is the ability to soak up damage and if the mechanics you had were NERFed, the skill simply does not exist, or the perverbial "glass cannon" can tank better than the "tank" via P2W selling in the store, then the mechanics need to be CHANGED to allow for that player "skill", not to mention choice.
yeah it is really shamefull that skill change tokens cost that much, in a system that isn't really easy to figure out. I believe a 100 z-points would be more apropriate for that kind of skillsystem. Or it should be included to each ship you buy...since you probably need to change your skills according to your ship anyway.
i can't really agree on your argument that for tanking you need less skill as a player. For current PVE content that is true if you have the right build. But that is certainly not true anymore for PVP. And if you manage to survive in PVP with 5 heal skills, you can survive PVE with 3 or less.
So, does it take less skill to tank PVE?...sure, but that doesn't make you a good tank. A good tank can tank PVE bosses and still keep up with other cruiser that are more damage oriented, because the player skill allows to be more than just a punching ball.
yeah it is really shamefull that skill change tokens cost that much, in a system that isn't really easy to figure out. I believe a 100 z-points would be more apropriate for that kind of skillsystem. Or it should be included to each ship you buy...since you probably need to change your skills according to your ship anyway.
i can't really agree on your argument that for tanking you need less skill as a player. For current PVE content that is true if you have the right build. But that is certainly not true anymore for PVP. And if you manage to survive in PVP with 5 heal skills, you can survive PVE with 3 or less.
So, does it take less skill to tank PVE?...sure, but that doesn't make you a good tank. A good tank can tank PVE bosses and still keep up with other cruiser that are more damage oriented, because the player skill allows to be more than just a punching ball.
PVE is another animal, entirely. I can "tank" tac cubes with a tac is an excel. That, however does not mean that the excel can "tank" in PVP. Why? That's probably 90% due to P2W DPS adds via the Cstore, lobi store, and lockboxes.
Way back, "before the dark times", before the skill box revamps, that same excel could "tank" even in PVP gameplay. But that was with the "hardened shield" build that included consoles that aren't even in the game anylonger (1 of the largest NERFs to tanking right there). Also, hull resists seemed to work differenty as well (back then).
And, it really takes no player "skill" to go out and buy a G board and macro EptS 1 and 2 (or 1 and 3 for that matter), along with TS, and SIF3. It's all dependant upon "buffs" now, isn't it? I run all of that and I fully admit that there is NO "skill" involved as I push 3 buttons and the board does the rest. I guess I paid a good bit for that board and mouse so does that also qualify as P2W? Probably.
You know, SWG did that as well with the last version of the NGE (after C6CD). If you played for a long, long, time then you had all the little buff items that no1 could get anylonger (that were taken out of the game via all the CHANGES/NERFs just like STO is doing now). My jedi had all of those too, and when fully buffed could run 7 full rows+ of nothing but buffs. Basicly god-mode for a couple of minutes. While STO has not added all these little buff items, yet, (as they just added a few more with the fleet buffs) the dependency is still pretty much the same if even some assemblence of balance requires the usage. The only main difference is SWG allowed macros to be made in game so I had 1 key that turned them all on, and several that just used a few for certain circumstances.
Knowing how to tank is something that is very important in PvP. It prolongs survival but in itself is a short lived thing. Husank is right in that there is no tanking in PvP because eventually oncoming damage from focus fire will defeat any tank.
There is resist management and damage mitigation to survive long enough to perform your builds design though.
Its skill I knew little use of until BRJ showed me about it way back when.
I have tried to keep up, though Im sure there is much I do not know.
i can't really agree on your argument that for tanking you need less skill as a player. For current PVE content that is true if you have the right build. But that is certainly not true anymore for PVP. And if you manage to survive in PVP with 5 heal skills, you can survive PVE with 3 or less.
So, does it take less skill to tank PVE?...sure, but that doesn't make you a good tank. A good tank can tank PVE bosses and still keep up with other cruiser that are more damage oriented, because the player skill allows to be more than just a punching ball.
Naturally you can't have, say, only 2 points in tanking skills. For the rest, I think tanking is *very much so* a player skill. You need reasonably good gear, yes, but not absurdly so. Let's face it, if you're a TRIBBLE player, that 30% neutronium isn't going to keep you alive over that 28.8%, sorry.
The more ''clever' tanking comes from a combination of boff and doff powers, and even extra doffs to cycle those powers indefinitely, or add to it. Good doffs are half your setup, really. And then I'm not even talking about debuffing (which, after a fashion, is a form of tanking too).
That's the problem with some cruisers: resist management and damage mitigation is their build's design. Poor poor Galaxy class gets shafted in that department every time.
With a Commander and LTC Engineer BOffs- how?
The Cruiser should have the best resist stacking capability and damage mitigation possible. Especially when you throw in the LT science BOffs on top of it all.
Not to mention, sets, DOffs and the consoles in game.
With a Commander and LTC Engineer BOffs- how?
The Cruiser should have the best resist stacking capability and damage mitigation possible. Especially when you throw in the LT science BOffs on top of it all.
Not to mention, sets, DOffs and the consoles in game.
And that's the problem right there in a nutshell. Crusiers do not have the one-up on mitigation anylonger due to P2W escorts added for the "quick sale". When you have the bug and the fleet patrol escort haveing the exact same amount of eng slots AND they do not need or require a power transfer console to maintain their DPS, the end result is you have escorts that can pure "tank" better than the supposed "tanks". After all, there is ONLY 1 cruis that has the 5 eng console layout, (1), and to be honest I refer to that as P2L (pay-to-live). And that 1 curis makes you pay for that additional console with a slowness and turn rate of basicly, nothing. It's basicly good for nothing except making a "heal-ship" out of it in the comparables.
A lot of people here are confusing "tanking" and "healing" in this and many threads in STO. These have mostly been seperate profs in all MMOs except for STO in my experience. So, I regard tanking as the abilty to do nothing except "soak up damage" (damage mitigation) while healing is for replacing hitpoints that were taken out via damage. In this NERFed version of STO, pure damage mitigation is severly lacking now. While healing may indeed be an add for "tanks", healing, by itself, does not make up the difference in DPS thrown, expecialy for the low DPS tank. In this STO balance version, why fly a cruis when you can fly an escort, run 4 DHCs, throw massive DPS, turn like a fighter, run 5 tac consoles along with it, and basicly do everything "better" with the 1 execption of "healing". And, if you use that "player skill" portion to the right extent with the "get the flock outta dodge buttons" that escorts can run so much of, a good escort doesn't need nor require healing. When you do all the comparables, I have no idea why I still have a tac in an excel, to be honest. Probably nastalga, love of the IP, and not much more.
And really, the P2W designs are futher delegating crusiers to the round files. The new 1000 day "destroyer" with all the possibilitys that it holds with it's eng Boff slots for even now healing turns cruisers basicly obsolete.
PVE is another animal, entirely. I can "tank" tac cubes with a tac is an excel. That, however does not mean that the excel can "tank" in PVP. Why? That's probably 90% due to P2W DPS adds via the Cstore, lobi store, and lockboxes.
Way back, "before the dark times", before the skill box revamps, that same excel could "tank" even in PVP gameplay. But that was with the "hardened shield" build that included consoles that aren't even in the game anylonger (1 of the largest NERFs to tanking right there). Also, hull resists seemed to work differenty as well (back then).
And, it really takes no player "skill" to go out and buy a G board and macro EptS 1 and 2 (or 1 and 3 for that matter), along with TS, and SIF3. It's all dependant upon "buffs" now, isn't it? I run all of that and I fully admit that there is NO "skill" involved as I push 3 buttons and the board does the rest. I guess I paid a good bit for that board and mouse so does that also qualify as P2W? Probably.
You know, SWG did that as well with the last version of the NGE (after C6CD). If you played for a long, long, time then you had all the little buff items that no1 could get anylonger (that were taken out of the game via all the CHANGES/NERFs just like STO is doing now). My jedi had all of those too, and when fully buffed could run 7 full rows+ of nothing but buffs. Basicly god-mode for a couple of minutes. While STO has not added all these little buff items, yet, (as they just added a few more with the fleet buffs) the dependency is still pretty much the same if even some assemblence of balance requires the usage. The only main difference is SWG allowed macros to be made in game so I had 1 key that turned them all on, and several that just used a few for certain circumstances.
Ahhhh. The good ole' days. I remember when me and my Excel' were more active in PvP, and gave as good as I got One of these days I will have the top pf the line (fleet) weapons again and will have time to give it a go again.
And that's the problem right there in a nutshell. Crusiers do not have the one-up on mitigation anylonger due to P2W escorts added for the "quick sale". When you have the bug and the fleet patrol escort haveing the exact same amount of eng slots AND they do not need or require a power transfer console to maintain their DPS,
Wut?
The Fleet Patrol Escort has at most 3 eng boff power slots. And why would a cruiser waste a console slot on a Power Transfer console? My T4 Assault Cruiser does fine without it, are you not keeping your power ratings up with cycled Emergency Powers? Are you sure you actually know how to fly and build properly? Its nothing to be embarrassed about, its not like the game teaches you at ALL how to actually get something good out of a build .
The deadliest escort pilots are probably not running armor in the engineer slots. At the very least, they have RCS loaded in those slots to increase turn rate. More likely its borg console, rule 62, etc etc.
Avoiding damage via high defense is an escorts best defense.
The Fleet Patrol Escort has at most 3 eng boff power slots. And why would a cruiser waste a console slot on a Power Transfer console? My T4 Assault Cruiser does fine without it, are you not keeping your power ratings up with cycled Emergency Powers? Are you sure you actually know how to fly and build properly? Its nothing to be embarrassed about, its not like the game teaches you at ALL how to actually get something good out of a build .
You don't PVP much, do you? I'm not all that sure I'm the one here that doesn't understand STO's mechanics. If you actualy get a decent PVP build, you'll pretty much faceroll PVE, even the 20 man.
Here's a thread that will help you a boat-load on cruiser builds. Mav, (the OP), has been around as long as I have. It's a good read and I'm sure you'll get plenty of good ideas.
seems to me if people spent more time comparing notes and giving "detailed" and "documented" proof as to what they are claiming is happening with Cruiser A or Cruiser B it might actually be more helpful than just complaining that the cruiser is now a joke.... try to do something constructive get with everyone in here and compare cruiser builds and see whats working and whats not.....
I myself fly a Nebula Science ship It handles like a cruiser but with LESS weapons, but I can still do a fair amound of tanking if I so choose... alternately since it IS a science ship that gives me the Science Magic people have come to hate so much...
aside from the BOFF layout the Nebula Handles EXACTLY like many of the Fed Cruisers out there and it has Fewer Weapons.... and I can still handle whatever is thrown at me for the most part (unless of course I am the focused target in PVP)
just my 2 strips of latinums worth
Major Xi'Zzin I.R.W. Raptor's Claw Storm Eagle Class WarbirdFleet Ha'feh I have never trusted humans, and I never will
You don't PVP much, do you? I'm not all that sure I'm the one here that doesn't understand STO's mechanics. If you actualy get a decent PVP build, you'll pretty much faceroll PVE, even the 20 man.
Re-reading your post I realize I am in error. I read it as you saying that a patrol escort had 4 eng power slots, not consoles and that you were referring to PvE, not PvP. In my defense It didn't FEEL that late lol.
That said I do not believe you need a Power Transfer console in a cruiser, but I only run my cruiser alt in PvE, not PvP. I gave up even casual PvP when it became impossible to play a match against anything that wasn't a PvP premade.
Re-reading your post I realize I am in error. I read it as you saying that a patrol escort had 4 eng power slots, not consoles and that you were referring to PvE, not PvP. In my defense It didn't FEEL that late lol.
That said I do not believe you need a Power Transfer console in a cruiser, but I only run my cruiser alt in PvE, not PvP. I gave up even casual PvP when it became impossible to play a match against anything that wasn't a PvP premade.
Thanks for the 2nd look. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. lol
It probably depends on what build your running in a cruis if you need the Power console or not. I do not use them on any of the escorts I run (patrol, carrier, or even the 1000 day ship) with 4 DHCs and turrents but much need to on the excel beam boat due to the power requirements it takes to maintain even 6 Mk XII 3XACC beams. Without the Mk 12 (80%) power console, (even with max points in) weapon power drops way below 60 with just FaW and BO drops it a boat-load. With it, power stays mostly up over 60 even with BO3 and DPS goes up accordingly. Mav even suggests running 2, but I just can't bring myself, yet, to see hull resists drop that far.
Comments
yeah it is really shamefull that skill change tokens cost that much, in a system that isn't really easy to figure out. I believe a 100 z-points would be more apropriate for that kind of skillsystem. Or it should be included to each ship you buy...since you probably need to change your skills according to your ship anyway.
i can't really agree on your argument that for tanking you need less skill as a player. For current PVE content that is true if you have the right build. But that is certainly not true anymore for PVP. And if you manage to survive in PVP with 5 heal skills, you can survive PVE with 3 or less.
So, does it take less skill to tank PVE?...sure, but that doesn't make you a good tank. A good tank can tank PVE bosses and still keep up with other cruiser that are more damage oriented, because the player skill allows to be more than just a punching ball.
PVE is another animal, entirely. I can "tank" tac cubes with a tac is an excel. That, however does not mean that the excel can "tank" in PVP. Why? That's probably 90% due to P2W DPS adds via the Cstore, lobi store, and lockboxes.
Way back, "before the dark times", before the skill box revamps, that same excel could "tank" even in PVP gameplay. But that was with the "hardened shield" build that included consoles that aren't even in the game anylonger (1 of the largest NERFs to tanking right there). Also, hull resists seemed to work differenty as well (back then).
And, it really takes no player "skill" to go out and buy a G board and macro EptS 1 and 2 (or 1 and 3 for that matter), along with TS, and SIF3. It's all dependant upon "buffs" now, isn't it? I run all of that and I fully admit that there is NO "skill" involved as I push 3 buttons and the board does the rest. I guess I paid a good bit for that board and mouse so does that also qualify as P2W? Probably.
You know, SWG did that as well with the last version of the NGE (after C6CD). If you played for a long, long, time then you had all the little buff items that no1 could get anylonger (that were taken out of the game via all the CHANGES/NERFs just like STO is doing now). My jedi had all of those too, and when fully buffed could run 7 full rows+ of nothing but buffs. Basicly god-mode for a couple of minutes. While STO has not added all these little buff items, yet, (as they just added a few more with the fleet buffs) the dependency is still pretty much the same if even some assemblence of balance requires the usage. The only main difference is SWG allowed macros to be made in game so I had 1 key that turned them all on, and several that just used a few for certain circumstances.
There is resist management and damage mitigation to survive long enough to perform your builds design though.
Its skill I knew little use of until BRJ showed me about it way back when.
I have tried to keep up, though Im sure there is much I do not know.
R.I.P
Naturally you can't have, say, only 2 points in tanking skills. For the rest, I think tanking is *very much so* a player skill. You need reasonably good gear, yes, but not absurdly so. Let's face it, if you're a TRIBBLE player, that 30% neutronium isn't going to keep you alive over that 28.8%, sorry.
The more ''clever' tanking comes from a combination of boff and doff powers, and even extra doffs to cycle those powers indefinitely, or add to it. Good doffs are half your setup, really. And then I'm not even talking about debuffing (which, after a fashion, is a form of tanking too).
With a Commander and LTC Engineer BOffs- how?
The Cruiser should have the best resist stacking capability and damage mitigation possible. Especially when you throw in the LT science BOffs on top of it all.
Not to mention, sets, DOffs and the consoles in game.
R.I.P
And that's the problem right there in a nutshell. Crusiers do not have the one-up on mitigation anylonger due to P2W escorts added for the "quick sale". When you have the bug and the fleet patrol escort haveing the exact same amount of eng slots AND they do not need or require a power transfer console to maintain their DPS, the end result is you have escorts that can pure "tank" better than the supposed "tanks". After all, there is ONLY 1 cruis that has the 5 eng console layout, (1), and to be honest I refer to that as P2L (pay-to-live). And that 1 curis makes you pay for that additional console with a slowness and turn rate of basicly, nothing. It's basicly good for nothing except making a "heal-ship" out of it in the comparables.
A lot of people here are confusing "tanking" and "healing" in this and many threads in STO. These have mostly been seperate profs in all MMOs except for STO in my experience. So, I regard tanking as the abilty to do nothing except "soak up damage" (damage mitigation) while healing is for replacing hitpoints that were taken out via damage. In this NERFed version of STO, pure damage mitigation is severly lacking now. While healing may indeed be an add for "tanks", healing, by itself, does not make up the difference in DPS thrown, expecialy for the low DPS tank. In this STO balance version, why fly a cruis when you can fly an escort, run 4 DHCs, throw massive DPS, turn like a fighter, run 5 tac consoles along with it, and basicly do everything "better" with the 1 execption of "healing". And, if you use that "player skill" portion to the right extent with the "get the flock outta dodge buttons" that escorts can run so much of, a good escort doesn't need nor require healing. When you do all the comparables, I have no idea why I still have a tac in an excel, to be honest. Probably nastalga, love of the IP, and not much more.
And really, the P2W designs are futher delegating crusiers to the round files. The new 1000 day "destroyer" with all the possibilitys that it holds with it's eng Boff slots for even now healing turns cruisers basicly obsolete.
Ahhhh. The good ole' days. I remember when me and my Excel' were more active in PvP, and gave as good as I got
Wut?
The Fleet Patrol Escort has at most 3 eng boff power slots. And why would a cruiser waste a console slot on a Power Transfer console? My T4 Assault Cruiser does fine without it, are you not keeping your power ratings up with cycled Emergency Powers? Are you sure you actually know how to fly and build properly? Its nothing to be embarrassed about, its not like the game teaches you at ALL how to actually get something good out of a build
Avoiding damage via high defense is an escorts best defense.
You don't PVP much, do you? I'm not all that sure I'm the one here that doesn't understand STO's mechanics. If you actualy get a decent PVP build, you'll pretty much faceroll PVE, even the 20 man.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=379591
Here's a thread that will help you a boat-load on cruiser builds. Mav, (the OP), has been around as long as I have. It's a good read and I'm sure you'll get plenty of good ideas.
I myself fly a Nebula Science ship It handles like a cruiser but with LESS weapons, but I can still do a fair amound of tanking if I so choose... alternately since it IS a science ship that gives me the Science Magic people have come to hate so much...
aside from the BOFF layout the Nebula Handles EXACTLY like many of the Fed Cruisers out there and it has Fewer Weapons.... and I can still handle whatever is thrown at me for the most part (unless of course I am the focused target in PVP)
just my 2 strips of latinums worth
I.R.W. Raptor's Claw
Storm Eagle Class Warbird Fleet Ha'feh
I have never trusted humans, and I never will
Re-reading your post I realize I am in error. I read it as you saying that a patrol escort had 4 eng power slots, not consoles and that you were referring to PvE, not PvP. In my defense It didn't FEEL that late lol.
That said I do not believe you need a Power Transfer console in a cruiser, but I only run my cruiser alt in PvE, not PvP. I gave up even casual PvP when it became impossible to play a match against anything that wasn't a PvP premade.
Thanks for the 2nd look. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. lol
It probably depends on what build your running in a cruis if you need the Power console or not. I do not use them on any of the escorts I run (patrol, carrier, or even the 1000 day ship) with 4 DHCs and turrents but much need to on the excel beam boat due to the power requirements it takes to maintain even 6 Mk XII 3XACC beams. Without the Mk 12 (80%) power console, (even with max points in) weapon power drops way below 60 with just FaW and BO drops it a boat-load. With it, power stays mostly up over 60 even with BO3 and DPS goes up accordingly. Mav even suggests running 2, but I just can't bring myself, yet, to see hull resists drop that far.