Also Hereticknight, just read that build you used and the story of you using it. It does sound incredibly boring to be useful for all of 3 minutes of an STF because you're doing your "job".
Heh... heh... hehehehehaahahahahahahaha... *breathes rapidly* <--- losing mind from the boredom of "doing his job"...
I was actually useful for more like 10 minutes, but that's only because my team couldn't kill Donatra quickly, so I was happy cuz I actually got to do something useful for once... lol...
But despite my apparent usefulness, in all honesty I would have been better off in my FPE dealing damage harder and faster, since it would make the optional easier to get... as you can imagine since it took them 3 minutes to kill the tac cube (3 minutes of tolerable damage taken on my part), you can only imagine how slowly they killed the gens and transformers, to say nothing of the gates...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
My science toon is a better tank than my engineer
Also does more Dps.
My Tac toon can fly my Engineers ship better
Than he can dealing Far more Dps so much so
I droped warp plasma and took Extend shields 3
Making a better healer
The boosted Dps from being a Tac officer more
Than makes up for loss of the crowd control
Engineers need a general boost I'n there skills
That grant more damage resistance and greater
Dps so they can compete I'n the Dps game that
We have
LT commander and commander skills need
A large boost
Mainly the basic engineering skills need the boost
Tied to the Engineers ships specific
A engineer I'n a cruiser should get more
Power
Maneuverability
Dps
Shields
Hull
Than a Tac or science officer I'n the same ship
The cruiser line of ships would sell better if they
Performed better
Trek fans want to use these ships because
There cannon ships but are held back by
There lack of performance I'n the end game.
A lot of these fans are lured into creating engineers
Because these very ships are pushed at them as
The engineers ships at character creation.
Nothing new needs to be created to pull this off
Just buff existing numbers on current abilities
And add new buffs to some of them
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
You just have to learn how to make a proper build.
Check my siglink for info on how to make proper builds for different shiptypes.
The underwhelming performance of Engies has nothing to do with L2P.
Seriously get of your high horse, engie cruisers can beat any PvE, but that doesn't mean that their contribution is particularly valuable. The DPS race that PvE is in this game heavily favors Tac/scorts, nobody needs a healer in PvE so L2P doesn't enter into it.
Geez you hardly need a eng/healer in PvP these days. Thanks to BFI, assim Set, TT and what not
The underwhelming performance of Engies has nothing to do with L2P.
Seriously get of your high horse, engie cruisers can beat any PvE, but that doesn't mean that their contribution is particularly valuable. The DPS race that PvE is in this game heavily favors Tac/scorts, nobody needs a healer in PvE so L2P doesn't enter into it.
Geez you hardly need a eng/healer in PvP these days. Thanks to BFI, assim Set, TT and what not
Wow, someone spoke with some serious clarity. The "l2p" argument is sheer ignorance in this aspect.
Been playing pvp a whole bunch lately. I gotta say my mind has changed. A good Ody build takes 3 or 4 people with duals to take down if theres another good healer in the group. My Ktinga isn't even the best tank it could be and I can handle two escorts for a good bit myself. If everyone focuses on the escorts or sci ships you then face the challenge of staying on target, and overcoming the heals. Definitely a place for cruisers in pvp.
I find it amusing that there is no response from this person now that it has been said that we are (or at least I am) open to possible input from him. I guess he only posts when he thinks there will be resistance... oh wells, his loss.
I figured there's little to be gained from it, really: you just want extra DPS, period.
In a way I can't even blame you, actually. Reading the last few pages, it has become painfully clear to me, that the problem is not really with you wanting moar DPS, but with the game itself being geared towards always favoring DPS above anything else. And I can relate. You show up in anything but an escort in an Elite STF, and people already give you that 'fail' look.
And the game glorifying DPS is a bit of a game-breaker too. See, I wanna fly diverse, fun stuff. I want to do temporal inversions, drain weps power with thermionic torps, slow them down with time distortion or chronitons. But all people ever tell me is to just do the boring 1x dual beam, 2x DHCs, plus 1x quantum torp, and 3x turrets in the back (or minute variations thereto). Yawn.
Cure Space Elite is one of those instances where it's *seemingly* not just about the DPS, as you need to heal Kang too. Alas, in practice, it still comes down to raw DPS (as killing stuff faster makes em not even reach Kang).
So, instead of blasting you further for wanting moar DPS, I'm just gonna sit back a bit and see where this goes. Cuz it seems to me the whole blind focus on DPS is what needs a revamp; and maybe this thread will help.
Been playing pvp a whole bunch lately. I gotta say my mind has changed. A good Ody build takes 3 or 4 people with duals to take down if theres another good healer in the group. My Ktinga isn't even the best tank it could be and I can handle two escorts for a good bit myself. If everyone focuses on the escorts or sci ships you then face the challenge of staying on target, and overcoming the heals. Definitely a place for cruisers in pvp.
question: was that an eng cruiser?
Cruisers are the native ships for eng in STO the problems of cruisers and eng player class get often conflated.
Eng/cruisers have half/a place in pvp, thats about it. cruisers certainly do. while we're at it try fielding a team of 5 eng/cruisers in pvp and see how you like it.
To sum up: Eng/cruiser queues for PvE, o shoot i m neither needed nor wanted here, fail, but hey no problem i like pvp. Uh look queue pop: Damn another eng/cruiser we're costing our team debuff and DPS, great this is really soooo much fun. Back to doffing
Alright enough. I think I'll derail my own thread. To everyone who said L2P, I hate to admit it, you're right. I made a lot of mistakes and finally did something about it last night. I altered my BOff setup on my AC, and switched to a support tank instead of an offensive tank.
Here's what happened:
Map: KASE
Ship: Assault Cruiser
Cap type: Engineer
My build:
Fore Weapons:
3x Antiproton Beam Array mk XII [crth][acc][borg]
1x Quantum Torpedo Launcher mk XII [crth][acc][borg]
Aft Weapons:
Same as Fore
Shield:
MACO Resilient Shield Array mk XII
Deflector:
MACO Graviton Deflector mk XII
Engine:
Borg Assimilated Sub-Transwarp Engine
Devices:
Scorpion Fighters (nowhere else to put them), Subspace Field Modulator, Large Shield Battery, Large Weapon Battery
Tac Consoles:
Antiproton Mag Regulator mk XII [uncommon] x3
Engi Consoles:
Neutronium Alloy mk XI [rare] x4
Sci Consoles:
Field Generator mk XII [uncommon], Assimilated Module
BOff Setup:
Lt. Tac: TS1, BFAWII
Ensign Tac: TT1
Cmdr Engi: EPtS1, EPtW2, ET3, AuxtSIFIII (going to modify that)
LtCmdr Engi: EPtA1, EPtE2, EPtS3 (again, going to modify that)
Lt Sci: HE1, TB2 (probably going to modify that as well)
DOff:
Conn Officer (tt reducer)x2 [very rare]
Technician [very rare]
(whatever the DOff is that reduces cds on EPtX) x2 [very rare]
Power Settings Used:
100/50/25/25 <--- most used
25/50/25/100 <--- not as often but still used
50/100/25/25 <--- used at the end
Anyways, now that I have all the numbers down, started off KASE by dashing in and drawing aggro from the tac cube, and basically held aggro whilst tanking the entire time through a mix of EPtW and EPtS. I was on Offensive power mode so I was able to keep up a good 6-700 dph, and since it's a tac cube I was able to keep on torping it the entire time, used BFAW to increase DPS, and TS1 to keep it annoyed at me. Sufficed to say, my shields never went down until the end, and it never targetted anyone else. Then did the usual sit and shoot at probes until we cleared all the transformers and gates. Fought Donatra, and didn't hold aggro this time, but instead spent the whole match on my aux setting healing. Sufficed to say the only time any escorts died was when either my heals were on CD, or donatra one shotted them. In the end, donatra started targetting me, so I simply went defensive and just shot at her while keeping EPtS cycling.
Now as sad as this is going to sound, that was probably my best match as a cruiser. Which in my mind is pathetic. But I did my role, of tank and healer... and it went smoothly. Boring as fk for me, but it went smoothly. So I will concede that cruisers are not entirely useless. But their usefulness is not nearly as great as an escort... and in all honesty I would play a sci just because of their total mindfk ability lol...
Anyways, if you have any comments on my build that would be appreciated (as long as they are constructive, but feel free to trash me too, at this point I kinda dgaf...)
However, I would still like it if cruisers were a little stronger in damage dealing capability, if nothing else to draw aggro better without having to sacrifice skill points in threat control...
(I also did a few more ESTFs doing the same thing, just tanking and healing, and all of them except CSE went smoothly, even though in one of the ISEs the tac cube was being particularly nasty with crits and I ended up dying... also didn't help that the escorts that I had with me blew at dps... anyways yeah)
Congratulations . Thats a totally viable build. For stf's I'd prolly switch out the neutronium armor for the one that gives better defense against plasma. ( i can't remember the name atm), & switch BFAW for BO.If you don't have BO3 & can run a ltc tac put APO1 in there with BO,s 1 & 2, & your other ens tac TT, (if you have one.) maybe even drop the rear torp launcher for a beam to keep up your broadside DPS. & using a full broadside while running your Nadian or EPT can do brutal damage, due to the high weapons power level. The Engi can do this with 2 of it's innate abilities, the Tac has to use EPTW or a battery to do the same. An Engi can be firing a full broadside at full power most of the time it you manage your power levels correctly. That much DPS cannot be ignored.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
We've all heard the party line about escorts vs cruisers:
"Escorts do burst damage; cruisers do sustained damage and healing."
Cryptic must have seen the threads in the Federation shipyard forums by now and they're keeping quiet because they believe it's not an issue. They believe that things are hunky-dory the way they are right now and they won't come right out and deny the demands of players when they know it will just lead to angry drama against them.
So I am posting this new thread on the main forum, because Cryptic will see it sooner rather than later before they shunt it to a subforum where they can quietly ignore it forever.
Because Cryptic needs to understand this:
Klingon cruisers allowed to do both burst damage and cruiser healing. Why do they get the best of both worlds? Battlecruisers sacrifice hull & shield strength for the better turn rate/ability to slot cannons. Very few actually use DHC's on the battlecruisers for a reason. You get better DPS with beams on a Battlecruiser in almost every case. The Fleet vorcha is an exception.
Most experienced players will agree that to do burst damage, you need a ship with the tactical boffs to make it happen. Throwing a load of DHCs on a slow turning tanky ship won't make it an instant killing machine, as any engineer captain in a dreadnought will probably attest.
So let's look at the Fleet cruisers for the Klingon side: K'tinga, Vor'cha and Negh'var.
Starting with turn rate: All three of them have turn rates higher than any top tier Fed cruiser. Having flown a Galor for a long time (which has a similar turn rate to all three of the Klingon fleet cruisers), I can say from experience that when fully skilled with good engine power, a base turn rate of 9-11 can go up to 17-20 with ease, which is more than enough turn rate to use DHCs effectively. The Klingons get a better cruiser, the Feds have much better escorts and Sci ships. You Feds insist that you must have every single advantage in the game. Klingons should have NOTHING to encourage people to play them.
Boff stations: The Fleet K'tinga and Negh'var both can use the same tactical stations as a dreadnought. So they have access to Rapid fire or scatter volley 1 and tactical team 1 (doubled up, I guess?) for maximum cannon damage.
The fleet Vor'cha can double up with rapid fire, use tactical teams, or throw in an attack pattern to make it effective. It's not as balls-to-the-wall on tactical stations as an escort, but it will do a fine job. I forget, how many 5 tac console escorts do the Klingons have again? Oh yeah, none. How many ships with Innate sci ship abilities?
Now fly them with a tactical captain and you have a very respectable burst damage cruiser with very respectable tanking abilities; more tanking than you'll probably ever need in PvE and PvP if you're a captain who isn't a complete goober.
Okay, so what do Federation fleet cruisers get?
...nothing. They get to heal quite a lot. They get to turn like a brick. They get beam arrays. They also get beam banks, which are worthless on a slow turning cruiser without 360 degree arrays in the rear.
Federation cruisers and science ships need heavy beam arrays. Arrays that do the same damage as a dual beam bank but with the coverage of an array. Forward weapon only. Same energy cost and slow rate of fire as a DHC.
This would be for Fed ships only.of course. Klingons don't get them. Escorts don't get them. They already have their big burst damage weapons.
But this would make Fed cruisers overpowered burst damage machines, right? Wrong. An engineer captain in a star cruiser or science ship will get stronger weapons this way, but it won't make him put escorts to shame. But at least he won't feel weak and useless anymore. In the hands of a tactical captain flying a Regent class, maybe heavy beam arrays would turn him into a burst damage monster.
But that's the point: Klingon players already have access to overpowered burst damage cruisers. Fed players get nothing for their side. Except for better Escorts, Sci ships, Escort Carriers, ect.
So give Fed cruisers heavier forward beam arrays, or remove DHCs from Klingon cruisers. Let Klingon players use beam banks on their cruisers instead
like 95% of them do anyway, you mean. that 5% that chooses otherwise shouldn't get an option that YOU don't have, even though you have FAR MORE options of ships to play than they do.
Seriously dude. Fed ships are better, in almost every single case. The ONLY ship that the Klingons have that is even close to as good as the the feds in any class is the Fleet cruiser.
You can't let us have anything shinier than you have huh? Your Fleet Cruisers do better CC, better healing, & make better tanks. We get a ship better at 1 thing, DPS, for 1 class of ship, & you cry foul?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
We've all heard the party line about escorts vs cruisers:
"Escorts do burst damage, Federation cruisers do sustained damage and healing and KDF Battle Cruisers can do burst damage."
Fixed that for you since you seem to overlook that the KDF does not have multirole-purpose Cruisers but warfare designed Battle Cruisers.
Since I know this will not make a difference to your bias, please find me the acceptable evidence that any fed Cruiser mounted cannons while the Klingons never did on thier Battle Cruisers.
Klingon cruisers allowed to do both burst damage and cruiser healing. Why do they get the best of both worlds?
BATTLE Cruisers designed for warfare by a race known for waging war and conquest over exploration and peaceful negotiations.
Most experienced players will agree that to do burst damage, you need a ship with the tactical boffs to make it happen. Throwing a load of DHCs on a slow turning tanky ship won't make it an instant killing machine, as any engineer captain in a dreadnought will probably attest.
As Engineers are not a class designed to maximize burst damage? Though they can do moderately well with just the basic BOff abilities.
Is this a KDF hate Battle Cruiser thread or a hate Tactical cause they can do more damage than my Engineer thread?
So let's look at the Fleet cruisers for the Klingon side:
OK, lets.
K'tinga : base turn of 11
Vor'cha : base turn of 7, 10 and 10
Negh'var : base turn of 9
Cruiser (ltc) : base turn of 9
Advanced Cruiser / Adv. heavy Cruiser / Adv.Heavy Cruiser-retro / Heavy Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser-retro/ Fleet Heavy Cruiser-retro : Base turn of 8
MU Assualt Cruiser / Star Cruiser / MU Star Cruiser / Assualt Cruiser / Fleet Star Cruiser
Assualt Cruiser - refit : Base turn of 7
Exploration* Cruiser / Exp. Cruiser-refit / Dreadnaught Cruiser / Exp. Cruiser-retro
Fleet Exp. Cruiser-retro " base turn of 6
Starting with turn rate: All three of them have turn rates higher than any top tier Fed cruiser. Having flown a Galor for a long time (which has a similar turn rate to all three of the Klingon fleet cruisers), I can say from experience that when fully skilled with good engine power, a base turn rate of 9-11 can go up to 17-20 with ease, which is more than enough turn rate to use DHCs effectively.
That 5 point difference for the Exploration* Cruisers line is a huge margin, the 1-3 points for the rest hardly seems to be an issue.
Though it has been brought up that a 1-2 point buff to all Cruisers/battle Cruiser may be a workable solution without decreasing any other faction or players gameplay.
Boff stations: The Fleet K'tinga and Negh'var both can use the same tactical stations as a dreadnought. So they have access to Rapid fire or scatter volley 1 and tactical team 1 (doubled up, I guess?) for maximum cannon damage.
The fleet Vor'cha can double up with rapid fire, use tactical teams, or throw in an attack pattern to make it effective. It's not as balls-to-the-wall on tactical stations as an escort, but it will do a fine job.
Now fly them with a tactical captain and you have a very respectable burst damage cruiser with very respectable tanking abilities; more tanking than you'll probably ever need in PvE and PvP if you're a captain who isn't a complete goober.
As befits a Warship over an exploration multirole Cruiser and with the Fleet Vorcha and the Assualt Cruiser refit both factions have a Cruiser class vessel that has a LTC tactical BOff slot, if the need to be more damaging arises.
Okay, so what do Federation fleet cruisers get?
...nothing. They get to heal quite a lot. They get to turn like a brick. They get beam arrays. They also get beam banks, which are worthless on a slow turning cruiser without 360 degree arrays in the rear.
So your unable to use RCS consoles or skilling to increase you turn to a respectable 12-17 on your cruisers? Thus making your 'bricks" turn better by as huge a difference from base as the KDF BCs can. Some fed Cruisers can even mount cannons with that 12 minimum turnrate.
Federation cruisers and science ships need heavy beam arrays. Arrays that do the same damage as a dual beam bank but with the coverage of an array. Forward weapon only. Same energy cost and slow rate of fire as a DHC.
Single handedly elimanating the need for DBBs since the firing arc for a Heavy Beam is the same as a standard BA and the damage of a HC is the same as a DBB.
This would be for Fed ships only. Klingons don't get them. Escorts don't get them. They already have their big burst damage weapons.
Why? DO you honestly think the KDF could not make heavy beam arrays?
But this would make Fed cruisers overpowered burst damage machines, right? Wrong.
So an Engineer running BO3+BO2 with Nadion + EPS and a Weapon batt on standby with a Heavy beam 270 degree firing arc at DBB base damage levels and still being able to tank very well would not be unfair?
But that's the point: Klingon players already have access to overpowered burst damage cruisers. Fed players get nothing for their side.
Assualt Cruiser?
So give Fed cruisers heavier forward beam arrays, or remove DHCs from Klingon cruisers. Let Klingon players use beam banks on their cruisers instead.
Even though Klingon Battle Cruiser are shown to have cannons in the IP?
Sounds like envy to me.
Does this mean we KDF players can start the "Fed Escorts are better than Raptors" threads and whine about how the fed get all the good escorts and its unfair?
* note this wording. Not Battleship but Exploration.
As of you who read what I post know, I am a huge fan of balance and the restoration of the Cruiser from backseat healer to the heart of the fleet. Now we all know that in current STO, escorts rule the roost, cruisers are stuck in healer spots, and science ships are just looked at with the "wtf are they doing here" attitude (first part to get argued no doubt in responses to this thread).
HOWEVER I must point out that cruisers in the hands of Tactical Captains can be rather nasty. But in all honesty we know that they were designed for us Engineering Captains, and unfortunately in comparison to the Tac Cruisers, ours have far less bite, and tbh seem to be far less useful. Rather embarrassing to have the most magnificent ship in the fleet and have it stuck in the back looking pretty and healing.
So in response to this injustice, MANY good and logical ideas have been proposed to give cruisers back their position of honor as the flagships and hearts of Starfleet, and unfortunately ALL of them have been ignored. That hope was rekindled with the release of the Regent, but just as soon dashed when we realized they gave us a piece of eye candy, and not much more. Another cruiser designed for TACTICAL captains with some seemingly attractive add-ons (that I should now mention are buggy as heck and don't even work half the time) and a torp launcher that can shoot sideways. Whippy doo...
So now getting to the point of this thread. I find myself disappointed that threads keep on appearing asking politely (and sometimes even BEGGING) that cruisers be restored to their positions of grace and honor that they hold so graciously in canon, and having these threads seemingly summarily dismissed by the developers. I mean COME ON!!! They gave the aquarius and escort (everything and it's mother refit) a turn rate boost, something NEITHER SHIP NEEDS BUT CRUISERS HAVE BEEN BEGGING FOR. We don't mind flying whales. We don't mind being slow. But to be stuck with an absurdly LOW damage output with an equally disgusting LOW turn rate? Why? Why did you only give us a shield with no sword? Why have you bound our feet instead of letting us run?
So here I stand before you, just goin bleh. They don't seem to listen even when we ask nicely. They scoff at us when we beg. Look at the Galaxy Joke thread. Look at the Better Turn Rate for Fed Ships thread. BOTH threads contain some very good ideas. BOTH threads have ideas that are not only fair and would add (or should I say RESTORE) some semblance of balance to the game, and yet those threads have been there for two whole patches, and all the devs give us is a turn rate bonus to ESCORTS??? THEY DON'T BLOODY NEED IT. ESCORTS ARE SO POWERFUL THAT THEY ALMOST NEGATE THE NEED FOR ANY OTHER CLASS OF SHIP.
Would it kill you guys to at least throw us a bone? Give us SOMETHING? I mean, the Heavy Beam Array suggested by myself and then modified in thread with some balancing ideas by others like yeodred and angrytarg is a good start. Give us a little bite back. The final stats weren't overpowered, and were designed to give the cruisers a little bit of teeth back and not be encumbered by the horrid turn rate. If not that, then the leadership aura again suggested by myself and then modified in thread by players AGAIN like the above two would also make us at least be considered something good to have around instead of just dead weight.
Now I know that the community moderators read these threads. It's their job. But I have heard rumors that the devs do as well. Rumors mind you, I could just be blowing smoke again, but if you guys do read this, please, say something, ANYTHING so all of us cruiser pilots don't just throw in the towel, esp the engineering ones, who want to be able to do their jobs as tank, and actually cause enough distractions and be enough of a threat that escorts CAN do their jobs, instead of PvP and PvE just turning into a mass of escorts duking it out.
Very well writen and poignant. The fact that you have to be tactical officer to get the most bang for your dps in certain cruisers smacks of a grossly imbalanced game. Engineers should be able to fly their specific ship class and still have the ability to properly defend themselves against tact. officers in cruisers or in tactical ships. I also agree with you that cruisers shouldn't be a support class, at least not cruisers like the excelsior, odyssey, and the sovereign. These are full blown cruiser destroyers that should be able to blow any escort out of the water.
However, I, too, am a realist. Given the sorry state of pvp-balancing, I doubt these developers are capable of rebalancing ship classes in order to better reflect canon. They only care about balance in as much as it will earn them extra money. Look at how receptive they were to suricata's ship tier revamp proposal. That should tell you everything.
Edit: Also, please don't turn this into a KDF versus FED cruisers thread. Fed doesn't even have room to talk since Cryptic stunted KDF membership by forcing KDF players to play through FEDs first. So, don't even try to talk about Feds having it worse. We have less content than you do. Period.
Very well writen and poignant. The fact that you have to be tactical officer to get the most bang for your dps in certain cruisers smacks of a grossly imbalanced game. Engineers should be able to fly their specific ship class and still have the ability to properly defend themselves against tact. officers in cruisers or in tactical ships. I also agree with you that cruisers shouldn't be a support class, at least not cruisers like the excelsior, odyssey, and the sovereign. These are full blown cruiser destroyers that should be able to blow any escort out of the water.
However, I, too, am a realist. Given the sorry state of pvp-balancing, I doubt these developers are capable of rebalancing ship classes in order to better reflect canon. They only care about balance in as much as it will earn them extra money. Look at how receptive they were to suricata's ship tier revamp proposal. That should tell you everything.
Edit: Also, please don't turn this into a KDF versus FED cruisers thread. Fed doesn't even have room to talk since Cryptic stunted KDF membership by forcing KDF players to play through FEDs first. So, don't even try to talk about Feds having it worse. We have less content than you do. Period.
/agree.
As for the money aspects? I would ask the Cryptic "bean-counters" to go over how much cash they made with the OP bug and then how much cash they made for the sov? Bet the bug beat out the sov by sooo much a wide magin that it isn't even funny.
A P2W crusier would sell just as good as a P2W escort. And P2W seems to be the selling point that Cryptic seems to enjoy. There is a need for a crusier that can hold its own via DPS as well, eng or not.
So how many times did Jeordi man the tactical console boosting damage on the Enterprise to lead the vessel to victory versus the number of time he modified something to keep it alive and viable in combat instead?
Engineers are not the primary damage dealing Class in STO, thats why the Tactical class does it best - becuase they are the DD class choice.
Heavy beams. The DBB damage level 270 firing arc forward only, Crusier only, No Escorts or KDF allowed Heavy Beams?
Yeah they sound real fair.:rolleyes:
Most likely the thread is being seemingly overlooked becuase the whole base for the complaint comes from a place of " My non-Tactical toon in a non-tactical vessel can't do the damage output of a Tactical toon in a tactical vessel in combat- and thats unfair!!!" or my personal fave " Fed Cruisers are not as effective in combat as the KDF's Battle Cruisers - and that unfair!!!!".
Or its becuase every idea fostered to "even the balance" so far has been nothing but a "buff the Crusier only" idea that purposely unbalances the game again to cater to a single vessel class.
Or possibly its being overlooked becuase the fed cruiser was never the "battleship" that mnay fans think it should because the shows/movies give it that persona.
Or becuase they recognize that a great deal of teh ideas being flung around come from a place of envy, be it of the KDF or just a betetr player doing what the upset Cruiser can not?
The only idea I've agreed with so far is the bump all Cruisers/Battle Cruiser turnrates by 1-2 points.
You don't get to invoke canon in a game where Feds shoot first and ask questions later, giving no quarter and no chance to surrender before they blow up your ship and everyone aboard. Going strictly by on-screen behaviors, we should be avoiding more battles than we fight.
You don't get to invoke canon in a game where Feds shoot first and ask questions later, giving no quarter and no chance to surrender before they blow up your ship and everyone aboard. Going strictly by on-screen behaviors, we should be avoiding more battles than we fight.
I did not invoke canon. I asked how many times did you see the Engineer (Jeordi in this case) man the guns on the ship and how often did his/her doing so increase the ships damage output?
If an Engineer is to buff any aspect of a ship then it needs to be from an aspect that falls into his purvue, Engineering.
Possibly they could give Engineer players a system buff to power levels for whatever ship they fly.
Or possibly a choice in how they wish to buff an aspect of the ship due to the Engineer tweaking things to increase performance, like say a bonus to damage or accuracy of a particualr weapon class.
Of course the Tactical and Science classes would need the same consideration as they too will tweak the ship to best perform to thier areas of expertise.
oh, snap! we already have Captain powers that cater to our career choices.
I forgot in all the Engineers/Cruisers wanting to be Tacticals?escorts thread confusion.
I did not invoke canon. I asked how many times did you see the Engineer (Jeordi in this case) man the guns on the ship and how often did his/her doing so increase the ships damage output?
Diverting power from somewhere? Repairing some subsystem or improvising a way of squeezing more output out of something? C'mon, we saw stuff like that all the time.
BATTLE Cruisers designed for warfare by a race known for waging war and conquest over exploration and peaceful negotiations.
As Engineers are not a class designed to maximize burst damage? Though they can do moderately well with just the basic BOff abilities.
Is this a KDF hate Battle Cruiser thread or a hate Tactical cause they can do more damage than my Engineer thread?
I'd prefer it not become either. It's already a well established FACT that tactical captains are much much higher at dealing damage. And I like to think my Engi isn't totally useless, just not as useful as it could be.
That 5 point difference for the Exploration* Cruisers line is a huge margin, the 1-3 points for the rest hardly seems to be an issue.
Though it has been brought up that a 1-2 point buff to all Cruisers/battle Cruiser may be a workable solution without decreasing any other faction or players gameplay.
As befits a Warship over an exploration multirole Cruiser and with the Fleet Vorcha and the Assualt Cruiser refit both factions have a Cruiser class vessel that has a LTC tactical BOff slot, if the need to be more damaging arises.
I agree. But I personally think and have stated many times, the Fleet Tor'Kaht is probably the sexiest cruiser I have ever seen. It looks good, has a beautiful console setup and great BOff setup as well.
So your unable to use RCS consoles or skilling to increase you turn to a respectable 12-17 on your cruisers? Thus making your 'bricks" turn better by as huge a difference from base as the KDF BCs can. Some fed Cruisers can even mount cannons with that 12 minimum turnrate.
Forgive my apparent ignorance, but how does one do this? My AC can't get above 11 turn, even with a mk XII rcs console (granted it's a white, but still, that's only 5% difference).
Does this mean we KDF players can start the "Fed Escorts are better than Raptors" threads and whine about how the fed get all the good escorts and its unfair?
I also agree with this. On my KDF toon (yes, I have one lol) I fly a Qin, and love it. BUT when I compare it to my FPE on my fed side, I find myself wishing I didn't have to swing that damn nose around so much. On paper, it has the same turn rate, and should be just as good, but in practice my FPE leaves it in the dust. Something really should be done about that turn axis, so no, please don't start that here lol... but I do sympathize and agree with you.
Very well writen and poignant. The fact that you have to be tactical officer to get the most bang for your dps in certain cruisers smacks of a grossly imbalanced game. Engineers should be able to fly their specific ship class and still have the ability to properly defend themselves against tact. officers in cruisers or in tactical ships. I also agree with you that cruisers shouldn't be a support class, at least not cruisers like the excelsior, odyssey, and the sovereign. These are full blown cruiser destroyers that should be able to blow any escort out of the water.
However, I, too, am a realist. Given the sorry state of pvp-balancing, I doubt these developers are capable of rebalancing ship classes in order to better reflect canon. They only care about balance in as much as it will earn them extra money. Look at how receptive they were to suricata's ship tier revamp proposal. That should tell you everything.
Edit: Also, please don't turn this into a KDF versus FED cruisers thread. Fed doesn't even have room to talk since Cryptic stunted KDF membership by forcing KDF players to play through FEDs first. So, don't even try to talk about Feds having it worse. We have less content than you do. Period.
I still think this way, but I have to say, it's unfortunate that the damage disparity so huge, but I am also coming to terms with the fact that it won't change. Kinda sucks...
/agree.
As for the money aspects? I would ask the Cryptic "bean-counters" to go over how much cash they made with the OP bug and then how much cash they made for the sov? Bet the bug beat out the sov by sooo much a wide magin that it isn't even funny.
A P2W crusier would sell just as good as a P2W escort. And P2W seems to be the selling point that Cryptic seems to enjoy. There is a need for a crusier that can hold its own via DPS as well, eng or not.
Ooook... I am about to sound stupid, but the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is a beautiful ship. Looks like a beetle, but dude... That thing... Performance-wise it's probably one of the sexiest and sickest ships around... Probably why it was around 500 mil on the exchange XD. My only real gripe is it's weakness in the sci department which means you can't give it as strong shields or resists to science mind-@#&%ing.
As for the Fed Cruiser that can hold it's own against high DPS? Perhaps I should point out one fed ship in particular... perhaps... oh... the Science Space Whale... erm Odyssey? (for the record, if I ever get the oddys, I am going to name at least one of the the U.S.S Space Whale. You guys can quote me on this and hold me to it).
Congratulations . Thats a totally viable build. For stf's I'd prolly switch out the neutronium armor for the one that gives better defense against plasma. ( i can't remember the name atm) (allow me to enlighten then, Electroceramic Hull Plating), & switch BFAW for BO.If you don't have BO3 & can run a ltc tac put APO1 in there with BO,s 1 & 2, & your other ens tac TT, (if you have one.) maybe even drop the rear torp launcher for a beam to keep up your broadside DPS. & using a full broadside while running your Nadian or EPT can do brutal damage, due to the high weapons power level. The Engi can do this with 2 of it's innate abilities, the Tac has to use EPTW or a battery to do the same. An Engi can be firing a full broadside at full power most of the time it you manage your power levels correctly. That much DPS cannot be ignored.
First of all, thank you. Secondly, I am starting to think I have a semi-high DPS, esp after hearing the guys actually putting up numbers on their damage output. When I actually calculated my DPS, it came out to averaging around 4k, which after seeing everyone else's comments, and guys like adam saying they were only doing 500 per hit (my average is around 700-750, 800-900 with EPtWX) I was kinda surprised.
However I designed this build after reading the PvP cruiser thread that whatshisname put up, only I altered the power settings for higher damage and not as much support. I have been tempted to try out PvP for the longest time, but I am afraid of getting steam-rolled. Yeah... fk my ego lol... I mean I am a PvP monster in other games I play... but this one PvP seems so specialized that I am not sure I would be able to do it XD...
As for your suggestions, thank you again. But the reason I run the 6/2 setup is because if I add another beam array, my power levels drop too hard, even with nadion and EPtW running. Granted I agree, it would add power to broadsiding, but I don't want to sacrifice too much overall damage, which I might be wrong, but hey, that's what this is here for lol... As for the neutronium, I would prefer to leave it as is because of the Borg's tendency to blast you with massively stupidly strong torps. The kinetic resistance has saved my posterior many times. As for the BOs, I am considering using those, since TS isn't as helpful as I thought, and BFAW, as pretty as it is (I believe they call it the disco ball of death), really doesn't do as much as I thought it would.
Lastly, how do you suggest I keep my power levels up? Even running Nadion or EPT, AND EPtW2, I can't keep my power levels above 90, that is if I end up with all 6 firing. I have had times where I staggered my broadside with careful maneuvering and kept my power at 105, but that takes lots of little adjustments and perfect positioning relative to my target.
I figured there's little to be gained from it, really: you just want extra DPS, period.
In a way I can't even blame you, actually. Reading the last few pages, it has become painfully clear to me, that the problem is not really with you wanting moar DPS, but with the game itself being geared towards always favoring DPS above anything else. And I can relate. You show up in anything but an escort in an Elite STF, and people already give you that 'fail' look.
And the game glorifying DPS is a bit of a game-breaker too. See, I wanna fly diverse, fun stuff. I want to do temporal inversions, drain weps power with thermionic torps, slow them down with time distortion or chronitons. But all people ever tell me is to just do the boring 1x dual beam, 2x DHCs, plus 1x quantum torp, and 3x turrets in the back (or minute variations thereto). Yawn.
Cure Space Elite is one of those instances where it's *seemingly* not just about the DPS, as you need to heal Kang too. Alas, in practice, it still comes down to raw DPS (as killing stuff faster makes em not even reach Kang).
So, instead of blasting you further for wanting moar DPS, I'm just gonna sit back a bit and see where this goes. Cuz it seems to me the whole blind focus on DPS is what needs a revamp; and maybe this thread will help.
Unfortunately we both know that this thread will do nothing towards a revamp. After all, how many other cruiser threads have there been? In fact threads commenting on that in general? And I agree with what you said, the blind focus on dps is kinda boring. I personally almost ran a sci cap when I heard about the major mind-fkin ability that they had (had mind you, not have), then I had a chat with some of my fleet-mates and they told me to not bother to run sci, got nerfed too hard. Shame really, was lookin forward to GW madness combined with jam sensors etc...(and call me a noob but after seeing TBR, I really want to try that out, if nothing else to be a troll) XP
As for the major DPS focus, you can see why we ask for a little more, esp because the game is so massively geared towards it now. That's what's been coming up every time there's a cruiser thread. The majority of in game content minus some very limited PvE, and the very limited PvP world, is geared towards pure damage output. Something that most cruisers suffer from to begin with, and they suffer from even more if they aren't tac captains. Granted there are a few that can dish it out hard courtesy of passive bonuses to weapon power and BOff setup, like the Regent and Tac Oddy, but for the most part, cruisers (NOT battlecruisers, everyone knows KDF cruisers are fkin amazing at damage output) as a whole don't really have the ability to contribute very well to the overall team damage needed.
If you read my build you will see I did my best to counter this as best I could, and I think I did an OK job, even though I am sure some PvPer is gonna come in and rip me a new one (not looking forward to it, but would be ok with it), and I know better than to compare it to an escort, but I can't really help but see the huge disparity. I know it comes down to that cruisers are support and tanks, and I have come to terms with that. Shame that there doesn't seem to really be room for that kind of role anymore though.
And forgive the long response guys, but there was so much to respond too XD. And I thank all of you for your constructive input. And please don't turn this into a KDF vs Starfleet thread, the two are very different for many reasons. That's why they are different factions lol...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Diverting power from somewhere? Repairing some subsystem or improvising a way of squeezing more output out of something? C'mon, we saw stuff like that all the time.
Engis do have that. Emergency Power to (insert subsystem here) (insert level here).
And biteme, for the record I don't want to become the main DD like tacscorts, but I would like a little more damage. Or at least a little more turn. Something lol... you know at this point I would even take that smoothie machine... XD
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
You don't get to invoke canon in a game where Feds shoot first and ask questions later, giving no quarter and no chance to surrender before they blow up your ship and everyone aboard. Going strictly by on-screen behaviors, we should be avoiding more battles than we fight.
Here's the double standard imposed by the Devs: Don't make the Federation as battle equipped as say, the KDF. Because...Starfleet would never, ever employ that type of policy. Well....considering we are "at-war" with everyone imaginable, would it not make sense to stop the production of exploration ships and start cranking out WARSHIPS to improve the probability of survival? Case in point, if you are in a fight, you don't slap your your opponent, you knock him on his aZZ!
Of course there will be haters going..."ohhh your a terrible person for suggesting those things!" Well I'm sorry to be the one to point out the simple truth.
The Devs have gone so far away from canon, Starfleet (to put the previous poster's comments in perspective) Starfleet's main goal would be to avoid a fight, or give an option to surrender. NOT to blow up everything that gets in its' way and fight NOW, ask questions LATER type of mentality.
But...since this is what the Devs have done to the game, there is no reason to adhere to canon any longer. Starfleet should be making WARSHIPS...WARSHIPS and more WARSHIPS. Hey, that's the path the Devs have chosen, so either dive further into that, or actually make Starfleet a peaceful exploration faction.
Here's the double standard imposed by the Devs: Don't make the Federation as battle equipped as say, the KDF. Because...Starfleet would never, ever employ that type of policy. Well....considering we are "at-war" with everyone imaginable, would it not make sense to stop the production of exploration ships and start cranking out WARSHIPS to improve the probability of survival? Case in point, if you are in a fight, you don't slap your your opponent, you knock him on his aZZ!
Of course there will be haters going..."ohhh your a terrible person for suggesting those things!" Well I'm sorry to be the one to point out the simple truth.
The Devs have gone so far away from canon, Starfleet (to put the previous poster's comments in perspective) Starfleet's main goal would be to avoid a fight, or give an option to surrender. NOT to blow up everything that gets in its' way and fight NOW, ask questions LATER type of mentality.
But...since this is what the Devs have done to the game, there is no reason to adhere to canon any longer. Starfleet should be making WARSHIPS...WARSHIPS and more WARSHIPS. Hey, that's the path the Devs have chosen, so either dive further into that, or actually make Starfleet a peaceful exploration faction.
Even though in all of ST canon and all the times they where at war with somebody, only one class of vessel was designed for warfare, The Defiant.
One could argue the Excelsior as well for a total of two.
I'm all fine for ST making warships in response to the KDF agression as long as the KDF can make thier own Warship improvements in response to the feds suddenly deciding to fight instead of talk.
Unfortunately the bulk of these threads are not asking that question so much as stating the Engineer and Cruiser needs to be as deadly as, or as near enough to matter, as the tactical and Escort class in damage output to be fair to those Engineer/Cruiser players without the any handicaps.
A Heavy beam array that does DBB or DHC damage with a 270 firing arc is not a fair thing to expect.
A P2W fed Cruiser version of the Bugship is not a fair thing to ask for unless they are going to make P2W ships for the other vessel classes, like raiders and Science.
Engis do have that. Emergency Power to (insert subsystem here) (insert level here).
And biteme, for the record I don't want to become the main DD like tacscorts, but I would like a little more damage. Or at least a little more turn. Something lol... you know at this point I would even take that smoothie machine... XD
And for the record I'm not against it.
I love playing Battle Cruiser/Cruisers. It is fun to waddle into combat and shrug off attacks will fighting my enemy.
Unfortunately if the Engineer, Science and thier vessels are not up to the job required in PvE becuase PvE is too Damage dependent, then thats an issue with the game and how missions are completed, not neccasarily the Cruiser.
The Devs need to correct the game so all classes can accomplish the missions, not change the Toon/Vessel Classes so all classes perform as well in the area of expertise of teh class of vessels that do fulfill those missions the best.
So far though most of the ideas in this thread (and others) are not taking that aproach. They are asking for buffs to a specific set of classes and vessels to bring them up to a perception of qualities of another Class choicve as needed to perform better without any handicap or trade offs to keep the game balanced and open to all players.
That is my issue with such threads and the ideas in them. There is very little give and take for the buffs you and many others desire.
And for the record I'm not against it.
I love playing Battle Cruiser/Cruisers. It is fun to waddle into combat and shrug off attacks will fighting my enemy.
Unfortunately if the Engineer, Science and thier vessels are not up to the job required in PvE becuase PvE is too Damage dependent, then thats an issue with the game and how missions are completed, not neccasarily the Cruiser.
The Devs need to correct the game so all classes can accomplish the missions, not change the game so all classes perform as well in the area of expertise of teh class of vessels that do fulfill those missions the best.
So far though most of the ideas in this thread (and others) are not taking that aproach. They are asking for buffs to a specific set of classes and vessels to bring them up to a perception of qualities needed to perform better without any handicap or trade offs to keep the game balanced and open to all players.
That is my issue with such threads and the ideas in them. There is very little give and take for the buffs you and many others desire.
You are absolutely right. It's a take take take with no give, and I have been becoming aware of this as I have played more and actually bothered to read what others have been saying. It helps to keep an open mind. But in all honesty, I don't see anything tac captains really need, so I am not sure what we could give them to keep the balance if we buffed engis or sci.
That being said, I am not sure how we could really buff the other classes. If we went by your requirements of give and take, what could we give tac captains and escorts if we were to buff engis and cruisers, and possibly give back sci some dignity?
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I guarantee we get everything we ask for in a thread like this....when the game is nearly dead and they are begging us all to come back. By then it will be too late.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
I think offensive Engineering powers should be more powerful. Every other Career has the possibility to take a active role in Combat, engineers do not.
STO is disappointing in ths case, Escort and Sci ships are abel to take active roles but Cruisers (the most iconic Trek ships) hardly can.
Klingon crusiers are much easier to play in this case, i know Fed cruisers are healers in STO, blah blah blah.
Playing a healer ship is just the most boring thing one can do. I would rather stop playing this game immediately than to play a healer ship.
Every ship can take care for itself, thats perfectly OK for me. In fact i like it much more than haviong to rely on someone else to survive. (not to speak of canon)
But Starfleet cruisers need some purpose in Battle.
Making them healerships was just a bad idea in the first place.
So whats left ? A bit CC (Eject warp plasma) thats all.
In my opinion Fed cruisers should be able to do NOTICEABLE damage over time. They can do that already, but it takes way too long until their firepower becomes decisive.
There is no reason why Federation cruisers shouldn't get some special heavy forward or boardside beam array weapon type, DBB damage and Beam array firing arch.
It wouldn't make Starfleet Crusiers as offensive as escorts or some KDF ships but it would make them at least a bit more offensive, one wouldn't have to be ashamed of it's low damage anymore.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
The Devs need to correct the game so all classes can accomplish the missions, not change the Toon/Vessel Classes so all classes perform as well in the area of expertise of teh class of vessels that do fulfill those missions the best.
So far though most of the ideas in this thread (and others) are not taking that aproach. They are asking for buffs to a specific set of classes and vessels to bring them up to a perception of qualities needed to perform better without any handicap or trade offs to keep the game balanced and open to all players.
even in posts that do just that, the "L2P noob, look how l33t i m crowd" takes these threads over very quickly
I often wonder how much time all those, eng/cruisers are doing fine ppl, actually spend on their eng toons
even in posts that do just that, the "L2P noob, look how l33t i m crowd" takes these threads over very quickly
I often wonder how much time all those, eng/cruisers are doing fine ppl, actually spend on their eng toons
Unfair yes, but not untrue.
Many of the perceptions that some Cruiser pilots have stems from not knowing how the game works or the ability to keep up with the constant changes to how things works based on the constant complainst from the playerbase.
Hell, I barely keep up and I'm considered a poor PvP'er and build designer. ( As evidenced by the posts in the past that have said my builds sucked)
As Kirk once said, " Know how things work."
As evidenced by those whom have designed DPS Cruiser builds that do work.
even in posts that do just that, the "L2P noob, look how l33t i m crowd" takes these threads over very quickly
I often wonder how much time all those, eng/cruisers are doing fine ppl, actually spend on their eng toons
Answer for about 90%? O.
Some people are not looking for balance but want to keep the status quo as they like being on top. Doesn't really matter what these guys are saying as the developers have the final say. They are supposed to have the metrics available to make a good decision. But, way too aften, it is players that have to explain the math and the mechanics to these developers. Seen it a hundred times or more in just the PVP forums.
This is what happens when you don't bother to actualy play your own game, all your thinking about is what will sell in the store, or the next version of whatever you can throw in a lock-box.
Many of the perceptions that some Cruiser pilots have stems from not knowing how the game works or the ability to keep up with the constant changes to how things works based on the constant complainst from the playerbase.
Hell, I barely keep up and I'm considered a poor PvP'er and build designer. ( As evidenced by the posts in the past that have said my builds sucked)
As Kirk once said, " Know how things work."
As evidenced by those whom have designed DPS Cruiser builds that do work.
Well that's how games are. And yes, there are DPS cruiser builds that work, I like to think mine is ok in that respect. The only catch here is that many cruiser pilots want to do more damage than they do, even with dps builds that work, since a lot of them have also flown escorts and they want to be able to do that damage output.
I know that's not possible, which is why I never really wanted that. But at the same time, I still want a little more damage without having to sacrifice too much tankiness, which is unfair on my part. However I can see this, which is why I am kinda backin off, since you are right biteme, you have to give and take. And if I want to keep my tankiness, I have to give up damage. And in all honesty I always preferred survivability over damage output.
That's not limited to just this game lol... In League of Legends I usually play tank. Lots of hp armor and MR, but not a lot of damage output. But plenty of disrupt ability. In BSGO I play a line, lots of health and armor, good weapons, but not geared towards much other than staying alive.
That being said and totally off topic, I understand (now anyways), as meimetoo put it, that you "can't have it all". Which sucks, but hey, that's life lol...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Many of the perceptions that some Cruiser pilots have stems from not knowing how the game works or the ability to keep up with the constant changes to how things works based on the constant complainst from the playerbase.
Hell, I barely keep up and I'm considered a poor PvP'er and build designer. ( As evidenced by the posts in the past that have said my builds sucked)
As Kirk once said, " Know how things work."
As evidenced by those whom have designed DPS Cruiser builds that do work.
Your builds are not that bad at all. I have gotten several ideas from yours and Mav's myself.
However, there is NO counter to all the DPS adds that have wormed their way into STO since F2P and that's what most crusier pilots are asking for as we're the ones who supposedly "tank". Altho I did see in guild chat a new P2L (pay-to-live) console that adds like 300% defense that some1 pulled out of the latest version of the lock-boxes.
Comments
Heh... heh... hehehehehaahahahahahahaha... *breathes rapidly* <--- losing mind from the boredom of "doing his job"...
I was actually useful for more like 10 minutes, but that's only because my team couldn't kill Donatra quickly, so I was happy cuz I actually got to do something useful for once... lol...
But despite my apparent usefulness, in all honesty I would have been better off in my FPE dealing damage harder and faster, since it would make the optional easier to get... as you can imagine since it took them 3 minutes to kill the tac cube (3 minutes of tolerable damage taken on my part), you can only imagine how slowly they killed the gens and transformers, to say nothing of the gates...
Also does more Dps.
My Tac toon can fly my Engineers ship better
Than he can dealing Far more Dps so much so
I droped warp plasma and took Extend shields 3
Making a better healer
The boosted Dps from being a Tac officer more
Than makes up for loss of the crowd control
Engineers need a general boost I'n there skills
That grant more damage resistance and greater
Dps so they can compete I'n the Dps game that
We have
LT commander and commander skills need
A large boost
Mainly the basic engineering skills need the boost
Tied to the Engineers ships specific
A engineer I'n a cruiser should get more
Power
Maneuverability
Dps
Shields
Hull
Than a Tac or science officer I'n the same ship
The cruiser line of ships would sell better if they
Performed better
Trek fans want to use these ships because
There cannon ships but are held back by
There lack of performance I'n the end game.
A lot of these fans are lured into creating engineers
Because these very ships are pushed at them as
The engineers ships at character creation.
Nothing new needs to be created to pull this off
Just buff existing numbers on current abilities
And add new buffs to some of them
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The underwhelming performance of Engies has nothing to do with L2P.
Seriously get of your high horse, engie cruisers can beat any PvE, but that doesn't mean that their contribution is particularly valuable. The DPS race that PvE is in this game heavily favors Tac/scorts, nobody needs a healer in PvE so L2P doesn't enter into it.
Geez you hardly need a eng/healer in PvP these days. Thanks to BFI, assim Set, TT and what not
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Why escorts got constant buffs to their defense an offense, cruisers got jack diddelly doo.
What do you see in teams nowadays? TS spamming sci ships and escorts to capitalize.
In certain teams not even sci ships anymore.
Wow, someone spoke with some serious clarity. The "l2p" argument is sheer ignorance in this aspect.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
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I figured there's little to be gained from it, really: you just want extra DPS, period.
In a way I can't even blame you, actually. Reading the last few pages, it has become painfully clear to me, that the problem is not really with you wanting moar DPS, but with the game itself being geared towards always favoring DPS above anything else. And I can relate. You show up in anything but an escort in an Elite STF, and people already give you that 'fail' look.
And the game glorifying DPS is a bit of a game-breaker too. See, I wanna fly diverse, fun stuff. I want to do temporal inversions, drain weps power with thermionic torps, slow them down with time distortion or chronitons. But all people ever tell me is to just do the boring 1x dual beam, 2x DHCs, plus 1x quantum torp, and 3x turrets in the back (or minute variations thereto). Yawn.
Cure Space Elite is one of those instances where it's *seemingly* not just about the DPS, as you need to heal Kang too. Alas, in practice, it still comes down to raw DPS (as killing stuff faster makes em not even reach Kang).
So, instead of blasting you further for wanting moar DPS, I'm just gonna sit back a bit and see where this goes. Cuz it seems to me the whole blind focus on DPS is what needs a revamp; and maybe this thread will help.
question: was that an eng cruiser?
Cruisers are the native ships for eng in STO the problems of cruisers and eng player class get often conflated.
Eng/cruisers have half/a place in pvp, thats about it. cruisers certainly do. while we're at it try fielding a team of 5 eng/cruisers in pvp and see how you like it.
To sum up: Eng/cruiser queues for PvE, o shoot i m neither needed nor wanted here, fail, but hey no problem i like pvp. Uh look queue pop: Damn another eng/cruiser we're costing our team debuff and DPS, great this is really soooo much fun. Back to doffing
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Congratulations . Thats a totally viable build. For stf's I'd prolly switch out the neutronium armor for the one that gives better defense against plasma. ( i can't remember the name atm), & switch BFAW for BO.If you don't have BO3 & can run a ltc tac put APO1 in there with BO,s 1 & 2, & your other ens tac TT, (if you have one.) maybe even drop the rear torp launcher for a beam to keep up your broadside DPS. & using a full broadside while running your Nadian or EPT can do brutal damage, due to the high weapons power level. The Engi can do this with 2 of it's innate abilities, the Tac has to use EPTW or a battery to do the same. An Engi can be firing a full broadside at full power most of the time it you manage your power levels correctly. That much DPS cannot be ignored.
Seriously dude. Fed ships are better, in almost every single case. The ONLY ship that the Klingons have that is even close to as good as the the feds in any class is the Fleet cruiser.
You can't let us have anything shinier than you have huh? Your Fleet Cruisers do better CC, better healing, & make better tanks. We get a ship better at 1 thing, DPS, for 1 class of ship, & you cry foul?
R.I.P
Very well writen and poignant. The fact that you have to be tactical officer to get the most bang for your dps in certain cruisers smacks of a grossly imbalanced game. Engineers should be able to fly their specific ship class and still have the ability to properly defend themselves against tact. officers in cruisers or in tactical ships. I also agree with you that cruisers shouldn't be a support class, at least not cruisers like the excelsior, odyssey, and the sovereign. These are full blown cruiser destroyers that should be able to blow any escort out of the water.
However, I, too, am a realist. Given the sorry state of pvp-balancing, I doubt these developers are capable of rebalancing ship classes in order to better reflect canon. They only care about balance in as much as it will earn them extra money. Look at how receptive they were to suricata's ship tier revamp proposal. That should tell you everything.
Edit: Also, please don't turn this into a KDF versus FED cruisers thread. Fed doesn't even have room to talk since Cryptic stunted KDF membership by forcing KDF players to play through FEDs first. So, don't even try to talk about Feds having it worse. We have less content than you do. Period.
/agree.
As for the money aspects? I would ask the Cryptic "bean-counters" to go over how much cash they made with the OP bug and then how much cash they made for the sov? Bet the bug beat out the sov by sooo much a wide magin that it isn't even funny.
A P2W crusier would sell just as good as a P2W escort. And P2W seems to be the selling point that Cryptic seems to enjoy. There is a need for a crusier that can hold its own via DPS as well, eng or not.
Engineers are not the primary damage dealing Class in STO, thats why the Tactical class does it best - becuase they are the DD class choice.
Heavy beams. The DBB damage level 270 firing arc forward only, Crusier only, No Escorts or KDF allowed Heavy Beams?
Yeah they sound real fair.:rolleyes:
Most likely the thread is being seemingly overlooked becuase the whole base for the complaint comes from a place of " My non-Tactical toon in a non-tactical vessel can't do the damage output of a Tactical toon in a tactical vessel in combat- and thats unfair!!!" or my personal fave " Fed Cruisers are not as effective in combat as the KDF's Battle Cruisers - and that unfair!!!!".
Or its becuase every idea fostered to "even the balance" so far has been nothing but a "buff the Crusier only" idea that purposely unbalances the game again to cater to a single vessel class.
Or possibly its being overlooked becuase the fed cruiser was never the "battleship" that mnay fans think it should because the shows/movies give it that persona.
Or becuase they recognize that a great deal of teh ideas being flung around come from a place of envy, be it of the KDF or just a betetr player doing what the upset Cruiser can not?
The only idea I've agreed with so far is the bump all Cruisers/Battle Cruiser turnrates by 1-2 points.
R.I.P
I did not invoke canon. I asked how many times did you see the Engineer (Jeordi in this case) man the guns on the ship and how often did his/her doing so increase the ships damage output?
If an Engineer is to buff any aspect of a ship then it needs to be from an aspect that falls into his purvue, Engineering.
Possibly they could give Engineer players a system buff to power levels for whatever ship they fly.
Or possibly a choice in how they wish to buff an aspect of the ship due to the Engineer tweaking things to increase performance, like say a bonus to damage or accuracy of a particualr weapon class.
Of course the Tactical and Science classes would need the same consideration as they too will tweak the ship to best perform to thier areas of expertise.
oh, snap! we already have Captain powers that cater to our career choices.
I forgot in all the Engineers/Cruisers wanting to be Tacticals?escorts thread confusion.
R.I.P
Diverting power from somewhere? Repairing some subsystem or improvising a way of squeezing more output out of something? C'mon, we saw stuff like that all the time.
I'd prefer it not become either. It's already a well established FACT that tactical captains are much much higher at dealing damage. And I like to think my Engi isn't totally useless, just not as useful as it could be.
I agree. But I personally think and have stated many times, the Fleet Tor'Kaht is probably the sexiest cruiser I have ever seen. It looks good, has a beautiful console setup and great BOff setup as well.
Forgive my apparent ignorance, but how does one do this? My AC can't get above 11 turn, even with a mk XII rcs console (granted it's a white, but still, that's only 5% difference).
I also agree with this. On my KDF toon (yes, I have one lol) I fly a Qin, and love it. BUT when I compare it to my FPE on my fed side, I find myself wishing I didn't have to swing that damn nose around so much. On paper, it has the same turn rate, and should be just as good, but in practice my FPE leaves it in the dust. Something really should be done about that turn axis, so no, please don't start that here lol... but I do sympathize and agree with you.
I still think this way, but I have to say, it's unfortunate that the damage disparity so huge, but I am also coming to terms with the fact that it won't change. Kinda sucks...
Ooook... I am about to sound stupid, but the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is a beautiful ship. Looks like a beetle, but dude... That thing... Performance-wise it's probably one of the sexiest and sickest ships around... Probably why it was around 500 mil on the exchange XD. My only real gripe is it's weakness in the sci department which means you can't give it as strong shields or resists to science mind-@#&%ing.
As for the Fed Cruiser that can hold it's own against high DPS? Perhaps I should point out one fed ship in particular... perhaps... oh... the Science Space Whale... erm Odyssey? (for the record, if I ever get the oddys, I am going to name at least one of the the U.S.S Space Whale. You guys can quote me on this and hold me to it).
First of all, thank you. Secondly, I am starting to think I have a semi-high DPS, esp after hearing the guys actually putting up numbers on their damage output. When I actually calculated my DPS, it came out to averaging around 4k, which after seeing everyone else's comments, and guys like adam saying they were only doing 500 per hit (my average is around 700-750, 800-900 with EPtWX) I was kinda surprised.
However I designed this build after reading the PvP cruiser thread that whatshisname put up, only I altered the power settings for higher damage and not as much support. I have been tempted to try out PvP for the longest time, but I am afraid of getting steam-rolled. Yeah... fk my ego lol... I mean I am a PvP monster in other games I play... but this one PvP seems so specialized that I am not sure I would be able to do it XD...
As for your suggestions, thank you again. But the reason I run the 6/2 setup is because if I add another beam array, my power levels drop too hard, even with nadion and EPtW running. Granted I agree, it would add power to broadsiding, but I don't want to sacrifice too much overall damage, which I might be wrong, but hey, that's what this is here for lol... As for the neutronium, I would prefer to leave it as is because of the Borg's tendency to blast you with massively stupidly strong torps. The kinetic resistance has saved my posterior many times. As for the BOs, I am considering using those, since TS isn't as helpful as I thought, and BFAW, as pretty as it is (I believe they call it the disco ball of death), really doesn't do as much as I thought it would.
Lastly, how do you suggest I keep my power levels up? Even running Nadion or EPT, AND EPtW2, I can't keep my power levels above 90, that is if I end up with all 6 firing. I have had times where I staggered my broadside with careful maneuvering and kept my power at 105, but that takes lots of little adjustments and perfect positioning relative to my target.
Unfortunately we both know that this thread will do nothing towards a revamp. After all, how many other cruiser threads have there been? In fact threads commenting on that in general? And I agree with what you said, the blind focus on dps is kinda boring. I personally almost ran a sci cap when I heard about the major mind-fkin ability that they had (had mind you, not have), then I had a chat with some of my fleet-mates and they told me to not bother to run sci, got nerfed too hard. Shame really, was lookin forward to GW madness combined with jam sensors etc...(and call me a noob but after seeing TBR, I really want to try that out, if nothing else to be a troll) XP
As for the major DPS focus, you can see why we ask for a little more, esp because the game is so massively geared towards it now. That's what's been coming up every time there's a cruiser thread. The majority of in game content minus some very limited PvE, and the very limited PvP world, is geared towards pure damage output. Something that most cruisers suffer from to begin with, and they suffer from even more if they aren't tac captains. Granted there are a few that can dish it out hard courtesy of passive bonuses to weapon power and BOff setup, like the Regent and Tac Oddy, but for the most part, cruisers (NOT battlecruisers, everyone knows KDF cruisers are fkin amazing at damage output) as a whole don't really have the ability to contribute very well to the overall team damage needed.
If you read my build you will see I did my best to counter this as best I could, and I think I did an OK job, even though I am sure some PvPer is gonna come in and rip me a new one (not looking forward to it, but would be ok with it), and I know better than to compare it to an escort, but I can't really help but see the huge disparity. I know it comes down to that cruisers are support and tanks, and I have come to terms with that. Shame that there doesn't seem to really be room for that kind of role anymore though.
And forgive the long response guys, but there was so much to respond too XD. And I thank all of you for your constructive input. And please don't turn this into a KDF vs Starfleet thread, the two are very different for many reasons. That's why they are different factions lol...
Engis do have that. Emergency Power to (insert subsystem here) (insert level here).
And biteme, for the record I don't want to become the main DD like tacscorts, but I would like a little more damage. Or at least a little more turn. Something lol... you know at this point I would even take that smoothie machine... XD
Here's the double standard imposed by the Devs: Don't make the Federation as battle equipped as say, the KDF. Because...Starfleet would never, ever employ that type of policy. Well....considering we are "at-war" with everyone imaginable, would it not make sense to stop the production of exploration ships and start cranking out WARSHIPS to improve the probability of survival? Case in point, if you are in a fight, you don't slap your your opponent, you knock him on his aZZ!
Of course there will be haters going..."ohhh your a terrible person for suggesting those things!" Well I'm sorry to be the one to point out the simple truth.
The Devs have gone so far away from canon, Starfleet (to put the previous poster's comments in perspective) Starfleet's main goal would be to avoid a fight, or give an option to surrender. NOT to blow up everything that gets in its' way and fight NOW, ask questions LATER type of mentality.
But...since this is what the Devs have done to the game, there is no reason to adhere to canon any longer. Starfleet should be making WARSHIPS...WARSHIPS and more WARSHIPS. Hey, that's the path the Devs have chosen, so either dive further into that, or actually make Starfleet a peaceful exploration faction.
Even though in all of ST canon and all the times they where at war with somebody, only one class of vessel was designed for warfare, The Defiant.
One could argue the Excelsior as well for a total of two.
I'm all fine for ST making warships in response to the KDF agression as long as the KDF can make thier own Warship improvements in response to the feds suddenly deciding to fight instead of talk.
Unfortunately the bulk of these threads are not asking that question so much as stating the Engineer and Cruiser needs to be as deadly as, or as near enough to matter, as the tactical and Escort class in damage output to be fair to those Engineer/Cruiser players without the any handicaps.
A Heavy beam array that does DBB or DHC damage with a 270 firing arc is not a fair thing to expect.
A P2W fed Cruiser version of the Bugship is not a fair thing to ask for unless they are going to make P2W ships for the other vessel classes, like raiders and Science.
R.I.P
And for the record I'm not against it.
I love playing Battle Cruiser/Cruisers. It is fun to waddle into combat and shrug off attacks will fighting my enemy.
Unfortunately if the Engineer, Science and thier vessels are not up to the job required in PvE becuase PvE is too Damage dependent, then thats an issue with the game and how missions are completed, not neccasarily the Cruiser.
The Devs need to correct the game so all classes can accomplish the missions, not change the Toon/Vessel Classes so all classes perform as well in the area of expertise of teh class of vessels that do fulfill those missions the best.
So far though most of the ideas in this thread (and others) are not taking that aproach. They are asking for buffs to a specific set of classes and vessels to bring them up to a perception of qualities of another Class choicve as needed to perform better without any handicap or trade offs to keep the game balanced and open to all players.
That is my issue with such threads and the ideas in them. There is very little give and take for the buffs you and many others desire.
R.I.P
You are absolutely right. It's a take take take with no give, and I have been becoming aware of this as I have played more and actually bothered to read what others have been saying. It helps to keep an open mind. But in all honesty, I don't see anything tac captains really need, so I am not sure what we could give them to keep the balance if we buffed engis or sci.
That being said, I am not sure how we could really buff the other classes. If we went by your requirements of give and take, what could we give tac captains and escorts if we were to buff engis and cruisers, and possibly give back sci some dignity?
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
STO is disappointing in ths case, Escort and Sci ships are abel to take active roles but Cruisers (the most iconic Trek ships) hardly can.
Klingon crusiers are much easier to play in this case, i know Fed cruisers are healers in STO, blah blah blah.
Playing a healer ship is just the most boring thing one can do. I would rather stop playing this game immediately than to play a healer ship.
Every ship can take care for itself, thats perfectly OK for me. In fact i like it much more than haviong to rely on someone else to survive. (not to speak of canon)
But Starfleet cruisers need some purpose in Battle.
Making them healerships was just a bad idea in the first place.
So whats left ? A bit CC (Eject warp plasma) thats all.
In my opinion Fed cruisers should be able to do NOTICEABLE damage over time. They can do that already, but it takes way too long until their firepower becomes decisive.
There is no reason why Federation cruisers shouldn't get some special heavy forward or boardside beam array weapon type, DBB damage and Beam array firing arch.
It wouldn't make Starfleet Crusiers as offensive as escorts or some KDF ships but it would make them at least a bit more offensive, one wouldn't have to be ashamed of it's low damage anymore.
even in posts that do just that, the "L2P noob, look how l33t i m crowd" takes these threads over very quickly
I often wonder how much time all those, eng/cruisers are doing fine ppl, actually spend on their eng toons
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Unfair yes, but not untrue.
Many of the perceptions that some Cruiser pilots have stems from not knowing how the game works or the ability to keep up with the constant changes to how things works based on the constant complainst from the playerbase.
Hell, I barely keep up and I'm considered a poor PvP'er and build designer. ( As evidenced by the posts in the past that have said my builds sucked)
As Kirk once said, " Know how things work."
As evidenced by those whom have designed DPS Cruiser builds that do work.
R.I.P
Answer for about 90%? O.
Some people are not looking for balance but want to keep the status quo as they like being on top. Doesn't really matter what these guys are saying as the developers have the final say. They are supposed to have the metrics available to make a good decision. But, way too aften, it is players that have to explain the math and the mechanics to these developers. Seen it a hundred times or more in just the PVP forums.
This is what happens when you don't bother to actualy play your own game, all your thinking about is what will sell in the store, or the next version of whatever you can throw in a lock-box.
Well that's how games are. And yes, there are DPS cruiser builds that work, I like to think mine is ok in that respect. The only catch here is that many cruiser pilots want to do more damage than they do, even with dps builds that work, since a lot of them have also flown escorts and they want to be able to do that damage output.
I know that's not possible, which is why I never really wanted that. But at the same time, I still want a little more damage without having to sacrifice too much tankiness, which is unfair on my part. However I can see this, which is why I am kinda backin off, since you are right biteme, you have to give and take. And if I want to keep my tankiness, I have to give up damage. And in all honesty I always preferred survivability over damage output.
That's not limited to just this game lol... In League of Legends I usually play tank. Lots of hp armor and MR, but not a lot of damage output. But plenty of disrupt ability. In BSGO I play a line, lots of health and armor, good weapons, but not geared towards much other than staying alive.
That being said and totally off topic, I understand (now anyways), as meimetoo put it, that you "can't have it all". Which sucks, but hey, that's life lol...
Your builds are not that bad at all. I have gotten several ideas from yours and Mav's myself.
However, there is NO counter to all the DPS adds that have wormed their way into STO since F2P and that's what most crusier pilots are asking for as we're the ones who supposedly "tank". Altho I did see in guild chat a new P2L (pay-to-live) console that adds like 300% defense that some1 pulled out of the latest version of the lock-boxes.